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View Full Version : Hannigan vs. Mesaraco



SWIndRed
01-28-2013, 04:09 PM
After watching countless games on TV last year (and several in person), here are my thoughts on the catching platoon.

Hannigan was so much better at getting his pitcher strikes that were borderline or off the plate. He gives the umpire that extra good luck of "it was right on the black" and that is invaluable for your pitcher.

I think Mesaraco has more potential as an offensive player but lacks the discipline of Hannigan. Hannigan's OBP skills is important in the 8 hole if our pitchers can successful get the bunt down (which wasn't a strength last year). Mesaraco projects as a better 6 or 7 hole hitter but didn't live up to hitting expectations last year.

I hope Mesaraco can grow into that "receiver" that Hannigan already is because I think his bat will come around.

At this point, however, its 3 games of Hannigan to 2 games of Mesaraco for me. Mes needs to catch the pitchers with the best control and let Hannigan "win" some pitches for the other 3.

bigfunguy
01-28-2013, 04:21 PM
Solid post...I also thought Mes looked tired as the year went on, which was strange as he likely played less innings than when in the minors...I do think sharing the load like they do helps both.

OGB
01-28-2013, 05:28 PM
Meseraco could be a big difference maker if he shows improvements in both facets of the game. I hope he really worked hard this offseason.

alwaysawarrior
01-29-2013, 09:15 AM
I didn't care much for the way the platoon was handled last year. I didn't think Meseraco played enough. That being said Haningan was so much better than him how could you not play him more. Just with Mes would have been ready for the everday job or stayed at AAA so he could play more. And I know the argument will be that he needed to learn at the big league level, I just find it hard to believe he wouldn't have benefited from playing more than he did last year.

RedsBrick
01-29-2013, 11:32 AM
Mes will get better as he gains experience and, hopefully, will be the #1 in a few years.

But as for right now there's no question in my mind that Hanny is the man. He handles a staff as good as any catcher in the game imo. This has the potential to be one of the best rotations in a very long time in Cincinnati and it needs a guy like Hannigan behind the dish.

smixsell
01-29-2013, 06:49 PM
Solid post...I also thought Mes looked tired as the year went on, which was strange as he likely played less innings than when in the minors...I do think sharing the load like they do helps both.

Mes always looks tired.

Judging by the dark circles around his eyes I'll bet he has pretty bad sleep apnea. :(

Hope he get's himself checked for it. :)

Anybody know how to get in touch with him?

vottofan4life
02-01-2013, 10:03 AM
Trade Leake for Saltalamacchia or Ryan Doumit and start Mesoraco at AAA so he gets more work in

m21eagle45
02-02-2013, 06:08 PM
If Mes is going to be on the MLB roster he needs to play more than he did last year. I think Hanigan is the better of the 2, but Mes is at the stage where he needs consistent play. If he is not going to play more than he did last year, you need him in AAA with Olivo backing up Hanigan.

Drugs Delaney
02-03-2013, 04:30 PM
I think the personal catcher idea was a failure last season. There is no doubt at this point in time that Hanny is the better receiver and all the pitchers wanted him as their personal catcher. That is a bad dynamic both for the pitching staff and for Mesoraco.

I would hope that this season they do away with the concept. Let Mez catch about every third day but so it at random. Let each pitcher work with both guys.

Also, while I really like Hannigan, I think his OBP prowess is a bit overrated. Seemed like he got a ton of two out walks where pitchers pitches around him to bring up the pitcher. Thus, I think his walk rates are really inflated. If you put him higher in the order, I suspect his OBP would really suffer.

Kilgore_Trout
02-03-2013, 04:52 PM
Also, while I really like Hannigan, I think his OBP prowess is a bit overrated. Seemed like he got a ton of two out walks where pitchers pitches around him to bring up the pitcher. Thus, I think his walk rates are really inflated. If you put him higher in the order, I suspect his OBP would really suffer.

I thought that this was an interesting theory, so I went ahead and checked it out. According to baseball reference, Hanigan maintained a slash line of .253/.388/.293 with two outs in the inning in 2012. While the OBP jump is noticeable (and quite frankly, to be expected) your theory kind of tapers out a bit when considering his slash line with 0 outs and 1 out.

0 outs: .313/.363/.384
1 out: .255/.344/.330

It's important to note that the plate appearances are pretty close: 128 with 0 outs, 122 with 1, and 121 with 2.

To me, this shows that Hanigan's propensity for solid OBP numbers are probably more reflective of the fact that he doesn't strike out much and appears to show a lot of knowledge of the strike zone. In short, he's a disciplined hitter, and thusly his OBP reflects this. I do agree with you though that if he were to hit higher in the order, his OBP would probably suffer, but not exceedingly so.

Just for the record, this isn't intended to be a "show-up" post. I'm just bored and thought that it would be interesting to check out. :beerme:

joshua
02-04-2013, 12:10 AM
I wish Navarro would have been brought back. Hanigan should take every start he can this year. I'd like to see the Reds keep the experimentation to a minimum this season. I could care less if both were hitting .200. Mes needs work both at the plate and behind it. He needs to spend more time with Corky.

Alpha Zero
02-04-2013, 12:20 AM
Pretty much all of Mesoraco's peripheral stats (BB%, K%, and ISO) were league average or better in 2012. Unfortunately, his sample size wasn't huge, and a low BABIP masked a fairly solid rookie campaign at the plate. He also looks like a decent defender, though I'm still unsure about his game calling abilities. All in all, I'd say he's primed for a breakout year in 2013 if given adequate playing time.

Also, this may be a little nitpicky, but I'll say it anyway. Is it too much to ask that we spell the names of our own players properly? It's Mesoraco and Hanigan. It says it in big letters on the backs of their jerseys. I understand a typo every now and then, but some on here spell these names wrong over and over again. Can't we at least try to get it right?

SweetLou1990
02-04-2013, 08:21 PM
THe ideal spot for Mes would be AAA, but the Reds need him in the bigs, unless the new catcher Olivo affords Mes the time to play everyday at AAA.

I thought last year that Hanigan was one of the most under rated players on the team and one of the most under rated catchers in the NL, truly a breakout year. Mes vs Hanigan isn't even a contest, I would be happy for Mes to have a CEILING near Hanigans performance from last year.

HatchMo
02-04-2013, 11:23 PM
I think people need to realize that mesoraco has the potential to knock in 60-65 with 15-20 homers if he got 500 AB's. Hanigan getting on base so the pitcher can strike out and leave him stranded is pointless.

Mes never got a chance to get settled in behind the plate last year, most people are severely under estimating him behind the plate.

dougdirt
02-05-2013, 01:07 AM
Ryan Hanigan is one of the best pitch framers in baseball. Devin Mesoraco actually rated out as above-average as well, but was well behind Hanigan who is among the better ones in the game.

The Reds need to allow both catchers to catch all of the pitchers throughout the season. If they still want to go 3-2 in playing time for Hanigan, so be it, but getting both guys time with every pitcher is going to be as beneficial as possible.

dfs
02-05-2013, 03:24 PM
After Mesaraco's suspension, he was diagnosed and sidelined with a concussion. When he came back, he was sent to Louisville and then when the roster was expanded he just got buried. He wasn't just buried at the end of the bench, he just vanished. After August 20th, he got into two games as a late inning replacement and saw a grand total of 3 plate appearances. He not only didn't get a start, he didn't get an at bat and I don't believe he even caught a pitch.
Somebody in the organization made the decision that Navaro was going to be the backup catcher in the playoffs and once that decision was made, burying Devin at the end of the bench makes sense.
I don't THINK the organization gave up on him, but....well funny things happen. I'm sure there are 25 other organizations around baseball that would be glad to have him.

texasdave
02-05-2013, 05:35 PM
Burying Devin at the end of the bench doesn't make sense to me. If there are two positions that I want to have extra depth ready when approaching the playoffs they are pitcher and catcher. On any given play at the plate a team might be needing another catcher. The Reds had their playoff spot locked up early enough that they could/should have given Devin a couple of starts. That gives Hanigan a little more rest and maybe knocks some of the rust off of Mesoraco in case he would have been needed. No big deal now as it is all water under the bridge at this point.

Vottomatic
02-05-2013, 05:39 PM
I'm not convinced Mez will ever be a frontline starting catcher. I think he is somewhat overhyped. And aside from probably one good year in the minors, I don't see what he has done to be so hyped.

The former #1 pick Stubbs experiment finally ended. I see the Mez experiment ending eventually by trade.

I think the Reds will send Mez to Louisville, saying he needs to catch everyday. Then I think if he capitolizes and puts up good numbers, he will be packaged in a trade. That's my prediction.

Kilgore_Trout
02-05-2013, 06:23 PM
I think the Reds will send Mez to Louisville, saying he needs to catch everyday. Then I think if he capitolizes and puts up good numbers, he will be packaged in a trade. That's my prediction.

Boy I hope you're wrong about this, but a part of me feels the same way. Not only were Devin's offensive numbers disappointing (although as a previous poster mentioned, some of it very well may have been due to bad luck), there were far too many instances where he looked absolutely lost at the plate. Of course, some of this could have been related to sparse plate-appearances, but in a sport where individual performance largely dictates playing time, he certainly failed when given the chance to help himself.

I still think he deserves some more time, though I am far less confident in his ability going into this year than I was going into 2012. Hopefully he proves himself deserving of a roster spot in Spring Training. I would really like to see what he can do with a heavier workload, but I'm certainly not against having Hanigan as the go-to guy. The dude’s a leader, and his talent behind the plate speaks for itself.

texasdave
02-05-2013, 07:46 PM
I think there is zero percent chance that Devin Mesoraco is traded in 2013.

coachpipe
02-05-2013, 08:11 PM
I love hanigan. One of my favorite players on the team. I was a catcher in high school and college and spent 2 years as a high school assistant instructing pitchers and catchers and I just have a love and respect for the catcher position some people can't find. Some say the catcher ERA is a worthless stat and I couldn't disagree more. Hanigan is the glue that keeps are pitchers in tact and I respect everything he has done for this team

dougdirt
02-06-2013, 11:37 PM
I love hanigan. One of my favorite players on the team. I was a catcher in high school and college and spent 2 years as a high school assistant instructing pitchers and catchers and I just have a love and respect for the catcher position some people can't find. Some say the catcher ERA is a worthless stat and I couldn't disagree more. Hanigan is the glue that keeps are pitchers in tact and I respect everything he has done for this team

Catchers ERA sucks. I can't stress that enough. Heck, pitchers ERA kind of sucks when you really think about it. The pitcher gets all of the credit, good or bad. What about his defense? What about the ballpark(s) he gets to pitch in? What about a few poor scorers decisions on errors/non-errors throughout the season that lead to 5 earned runs showing up instead of being unearned (That is a quarter of a run of ERA right there)?

So, first, you have to deal with all of the stuff that makes a pitchers ERA iffy. Then you add in trying to credit the catcher with all of those things as well as which pitchers he happens to be catching? Talk about a terrible stat.

Again, that isn't to say catchers can't improve/hurt a pitchers ERA. They absolutely do. But catchers ERA doesn't tell us which ones are good at it. Put any catcher with the Reds staff or the Rockies staff (even if you take them out of Coors) and they are going to look a lot better or a lot worse because the pitchers are pretty darn good or pretty darn bad.

You want to know which catchers are helping and hurting their pitchers? Learn how to use Pitch F/X data and find out which pitchers can frame pitches the best/worst. Both of our guys are good at it, though Hanigan is very good at it. Look at who throws out a good amount of runners (though even this can also be partially placed on the pitchers on the mound too.... some guys hold runners much better than others). When you figure out those two things, you will start to get a good idea of which catchers are the best and which are the worst. Catchers ERA can't begin to come close to telling you anything close to that.

coachpipe
02-06-2013, 11:57 PM
I can respect that. Makes a lot of sense when you put it like that. But I wouldn't go all out and say its a worthless stat nonetheless. Agree completely when It comes to framing pitches which hanigan does very well. And for a guy to go undrafted like that and do what he is doing is just remarkable. But I may be wrong but when I heard hanigan speaking with Marty hanigan is an absolute work horse on the field and when watching film. I may be wrong but I also took from the conversation that he calls the game for the most part. So he needs to know who doesn't like X pitch during X count with X runners on base and so on and so forth. And the pitchers really love having him behind the plate for those reasons. Because of his work ethic and his intelligence behind the plate. So it's a good thing we have hanigan for meso to learn from. Just hopefully he can get his bat going

DGullett35
02-08-2013, 09:34 PM
I think Mes focused so much of his game last year on his defense and handling of the pitchers that his bat suffered mightily because of it. Maybe this year he can find that balance he needs to become the player everyone thought he would be at the beginning of 2012. No way Im giving up on him yet. Give him another year to prove himself. Hopefully he plays good enough to at least earn a 50/50 split in playing time.

mgbrown66
02-13-2013, 10:04 PM
Mez is a stiff. I believe he gets traded within 18 months.

dougdirt
02-13-2013, 10:30 PM
Mez is a stiff. I believe he gets traded within 18 months.

Above-average defender in 2012. Good track record of hitting in the minor leagues. Got sparring playing time as a rookie.... it is no surprise he didn't hit well.

coachpipe
02-14-2013, 09:43 AM
The way he hit in the minors and the player comparisons "experts" were talking about still has me optimistic its just a matter of time until his offense starts to click. His below average rookie year is out of the way and behind him. he can only go up from here

LukeSho
02-15-2013, 02:20 AM
Mez is a stiff. I believe he gets traded within 18 months.

Is there any factual basis for this post? The sample size that Mez has had to perform in the bigs is incredibly small. I really believe he's going to change a lot of people's minds in the next 2 years.

But in the meantime, Hanigan is such a ballplayer. His intelligence behind the plate is incredibly underrated. There's a reason everyone wants to pitch to him.
I highly recommend this interview he did if you haven't had a chance to read it. One of our most undervalued Reds IMO.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/qa-ryan-hanigan-underrated-red/

Trajinous
02-16-2013, 06:48 PM
Mez can hit? If he can, I've never seen it at the major league level.

Hanigan has earned the starting job and should keep it until Mez or someone else takes it from him. Mez is living on hype and that's not how baseball teams win championship. I really hope that hype is translated to success but like Stubbs, talking about potential doesn't help the team win.

holster10
02-17-2013, 11:39 AM
I think that was a huge adjustment for Mez to be only a 2 day a week catcher last year and definitely factored into is performance.

Vander
02-17-2013, 03:16 PM
Mez is a really young catcher drafted our of high school who only got limited play time while trying to learn the pitchers and figure out opposing pitchers for the first time in the majors...

Yep, no hope... He sucks for good... :laugh:

holster10
02-28-2013, 11:55 AM
I hope the Reds don't opt to send Mez to minors to start the season in favor of Olivo as back-up. Whether or not its only two games a week, Mez needs to hack it at the MLB level. He's previously proven himself at AAA.