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nheath22
02-05-2013, 08:46 PM
It looks like Ryan Braun was listed on records from the PED clinic being investigated by MLB in Miami.

All I have to say is that if he really is not clean, I imagine MLB will come down real hard for his evasion from last years suspension due to a technicality. Love the guy as a player, but another connection to PEDs does not look good.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ryan-braun-s-name-listed-in-biogenesis-clinic-records-235650670.html

Beatlessp
02-05-2013, 08:58 PM
What sucks is that if these allegations are true, Aroid and Braun will only get 50 games (well..for Aroid it would be pretty much the season...IF he even can make it back from his hip replacement ;) at all this year)...while Melky and Yasmani could end up getting 100. WOW. when the penalties first came out, I thought it was about right, but now I think it's too light. i say full season, 162 games, can carry over between seasons, for first offense, and ban 'em for a second offense. fool me once, shame on me...fool me twice, shame on you

nheath22
02-05-2013, 09:01 PM
What sucks is that if these allegations are true, Aroid and Braun will only get 50 games (well..for Aroid it would be pretty much the season...

I just wonder if MLB will count this as a "2nd" offense after the close call last time. probably not, but it makes him seem like he was probably guilty back then as well.

Beatlessp
02-05-2013, 09:05 PM
I wish they would push it....heck, only reason he got off before was cuz some dude left the sample in his basement (creepy)

mattfeet
02-05-2013, 09:45 PM
I just wonder if MLB will count this as a "2nd" offense after the close call last time. probably not, but it makes him seem like he was probably guilty back then as well.

This, if true, will absolutely count as Braun's 1st offense, whether that's "right" or not.

-Matt

coachpipe
02-05-2013, 09:58 PM
What a cheat. I'm glad being a reds fan our guys stay off these lists. Or we trade them before we find out. Ala grandal

nheath22
02-05-2013, 10:15 PM
What a cheat. I'm glad being a reds fan our guys stay off these lists. Or we trade them before we find out. Ala grandal

Well... there was Volquez as well, who was still with the Reds when it came out, but he lucked out with being hurt when serving his suspension. Definitely seems like most of our guys are clean and have been more than most teams in the past few years.

coachpipe
02-05-2013, 10:21 PM
Well... there was Volquez as well, who was still with the Reds when it came out, but he lucked out with being hurt when serving his suspension. Definitely seems like most of our guys are clean and have been more than most teams in the past few years.

Completely forgot about that

Tommyjohn25
02-05-2013, 11:16 PM
Completely forgot about that

It's ok. Volquez is a pretty forgettable player. :D

coachpipe
02-05-2013, 11:19 PM
It's ok. Volquez is a pretty forgettable player. :D

Haha and that's why I forgot.

RBA
02-06-2013, 12:31 AM
Test

UrbanMeyer
02-06-2013, 02:20 AM
There are always two sides to every story.

Please don't mistake me for a Braun sympathizer. However his reasoning behind the connection to Anthony Bosch sounds somewhat convincing. From The New York Times:

"There was a dispute over compensation for Bosch’s work, which is why my lawyer and I are listed under ‘moneys owed’ and not on any other list,” Braun said. “I have nothing to hide and have never had any other relationship with Bosch. I will fully cooperate with any inquiry into this matter."

Supposedly they spoke to Bosch about possible urine tampering and elevated testosterone levels. This could mean that Braun's lawyers were simply busy trying to build a defense. To an individual trying to look at this from an unbiased perspective, I can see where this might be legitimate.

Our questions will certainly be answered soon enough. MLB will have to respond to this with an investigation of their own (if they haven't already). Until then, we cannot know for sure whether or not the interactions were legitimate.

Everything is speculation at this point.

LexRedsFan
02-06-2013, 03:17 AM
This, if true, will absolutely count as Braun's 1st offense, whether that's "right" or not.

-Matt

Correct. There's roughly a 0% chance of the Player's Union letting it become his "Second" offense.

Beatlessp
02-06-2013, 09:09 AM
Either way the guy's a snake and we all know he cheated. Technicality or not, he tested positive before, he just had slick enough lawyers to get it tossed. I saw his press release about using this guy as a 'consultant' for his previous case....I'll wait for MLB's investigation, but knowing his history, I'm not buyin' it.

Rock of Truth
02-06-2013, 10:16 AM
Well... there was Volquez as well, who was still with the Reds when it came out, but he lucked out with being hurt when serving his suspension. Definitely seems like most of our guys are clean and have been more than most teams in the past few years.

Say what you want about Volquez, but does this not point to a "loophole" in the system? He played the system perfectly. He knew he was going to sit out anyways while rehabbing. The 'roids would help his rehab process. Take the suspension of 50 games, which was still shorter than the DL stint and come back stronger.

He should have really had to serve the 50 AFTER his return from the DL if you ask me.

Pony Boy
02-06-2013, 10:48 AM
There are always two sides to every story.

Please don't mistake me for a Braun sympathizer. However his reasoning behind the connection to Anthony Bosch sounds somewhat convincing. From The New York Times:


Supposedly they spoke to Bosch about possible urine tampering and elevated testosterone levels. This could mean that Braun's lawyers were simply busy trying to build a defense. To an individual trying to look at this from an unbiased perspective, I can see where this might be legitimate.

Our questions will certainly be answered soon enough. MLB will have to respond to this with an investigation of their own (if they haven't already). Until then, we cannot know for sure whether or not the interactions were legitimate.

Everything is speculation at this point.

Braun's explanation for being in Bosch's books makes sense, and I believe his explanation. It doesn't change the fact that Braun tested positive for PEDs and got off on a lame technicality. He is a cheater and I don't take him seriously as a baseball player.

I wish that baseball would stiffen the penalty for PEDs. 50 games is a joke. If I were king the penalties would be:

First offense- 162 games, plus player is ineligible for the playoffs in any season that a suspension is served.

Second offense- lifetime ban.

leeech86
02-06-2013, 11:24 AM
Its just because he is having another herpes outbreak.

bigfunguy
02-06-2013, 12:33 PM
This, Carpenter hurt...the Reds chances for the division are just getting better and better.

UrbanMeyer
02-06-2013, 01:18 PM
I wish that baseball would stiffen the penalty for PEDs. 50 games is a joke. If I were king the penalties would be:

First offense- 162 games, plus player is ineligible for the playoffs in any season that a suspension is served.

Second offense- lifetime ban.

I think you present a very harsh, albeit potentially necessary set of rules. Yet I feel that MLB has done a solid job with this already. The current process of disciplinary action when testing positive for PEDs includes the following:

First time offense: 50 games
Second time offense: 100 games
Third offense: lifetime ban from MLB

While I would rather see the second time offenders banned for an entire season (162 games), I feel that baseball has taken a nice approach with the three-strike system.

In regards to PED testing and disciplinary action, MLB has unquestionably taken the most dramatic measures of any professional sport.

leeech86
02-06-2013, 01:30 PM
This, Carpenter hurt...the Reds chances for the division are just getting better and better.

Dont say that!

JB12
02-06-2013, 01:30 PM
I think you present a very harsh, albeit potentially necessary set of rules. Yet I feel that MLB has done a solid job with this already. The current process of disciplinary action when testing positive for PEDs includes the following:

First time offense: 50 games
Second time offense: 100 games
Third offense: lifetime ban from MLB

While I would rather see the second time offenders banned for an entire season (162 games), I feel that baseball has taken a nice approach with the three-strike system.

In regards to PED testing and disciplinary action, MLB has unquestionably taken the most dramatic measures of any professional sport.

I see no basis in a 3 strike system. The league continually stresses the importance of purity in the game, and there is a huge dark cloud over the steroid era (that apparently is ever-present). However, they do not reflect his same sentiment with the current set of rules. Fifty games is a joke.

If they want to crack down I agree with what was mentioned above.

1st offense = 162 games (including playoff games for the season the offense was committed).

2nd offense = lifetime ban from baseball + no HOF ballot

I understand some players may accidentally/unknowingly use a PED, in that case, the consequences are harsh, BUT I think they are getting paid well enough to be hypercritical and hyper-vigilant of what they are putting into their bodies. It's not too much to ask. If they can't accept and follow the rules then they will pay these consequences. Heck, if these were the current set of rules, A-Rod would be done for...

UrbanMeyer
02-06-2013, 02:03 PM
I can see where you're coming from, JB12. However we are not far removed from the steroid era. An aggressive approach like this may be counterproductive. While the two-strike system that you and Pony Boy endorse would undeniably be harsh and effective, one must think of the banishments that would be occurring and the effect that it may have on the game.

Do you think it'd good for MLB to ban players from the game for a second offense? How would the MLBPA react to numerous banishments per season (which is what very well could happen)? Would it be fair to someone to get banished off a potential accident? What if this happened down the road to a Reds player? That is, an accidental second time offense. I have a feeling opinions may change.

Guys who get tested positive a second time are already 'banned' in a sense. Baseball writers are not going to vote for somebody they feel cheated several times anyway. While it is far too early to speculate, I cannot imagine a scenario now where A-Rod gets inducted to the Hall of Fame.

It really comes down to a matter of preference. If you feel the game would be better off by banning countless guys for second time offenses, then you'd like a two-strike system.

I just feel that would be too aggressive. With the amount of supplements on the banned substances list, there are bound to be legitimate accidents. I would hate to see a situation where an athlete received a lifetime banishment for an honest mistake.

texasdave
02-06-2013, 02:40 PM
I just feel that would be too aggressive. With the amount of supplements on the banned substances list, there are bound to be legitimate accidents. I would hate to see a situation where an athlete received a lifetime banishment for an honest mistake.

Assuming the player is really innocent, even with a more aggressive punishment schedule there would have to be two honest mistakes before a lifetime banishment kicked in. Have we reached the point where it is too much to expect for an adult, whose livelihood depends on this, to exercise caution and responsibility with regards to what they ingest?
I read an article where it stated that MLB has a 24-hour contact line available to players so that they can ensure what they are taking is not on the banned subtance list. Is a five-minute phone call too much to ask when your livelihood is at stake?
Nobody wants to see an innocent player get banned for life, but what are the odds of PED lightning striking the same player twice? I would say extremely slim. And, even if that were to occur, does it trump the integrity of the game? I am not certain which percentage of players are using PEDs. But I am pretty certain that the usage is not spread out evenly. I think there are pockets of usage. If a team has 5 or 6 users and your team has 1 or 2 users, doesn't that give the other team an unfair advantage?
Like I stated earlier, nobody wants to see an innocent player being unfairly punished. But the integrity of the game trumps that every time IMO.

Kilgore_Trout
02-06-2013, 03:22 PM
Sorry, Urban, but these are adults we're dealing with. Like texasdave said, it shouldn't be asking too much of an adult to be responsible for the substances they consume. Can you think of an example where an upstanding, honest player "accidently" ingested a banned substance that lead to a second offense? Can you even formulate a hypothetical situation where this could occur? A ban in this scenario means that he would have had to of failed a PED test before. If something like this were to happen, would you even feel bad for him?

Not trying to call you out or put you on the spot. I'm simply playing along. At the end of the day, an opportunity has been presented to baseball. Once again, MLB can take charge and lead the fight in eradicating these substances from sports, as it has done for years, or it can find excuses for these grown men. I really hope that this is a water-shed moment.

JB12
02-06-2013, 03:28 PM
Would it be fair to someone to get banished off a potential accident? What if this happened down the road to a Reds player? That is, an accidental second time offense. I have a feeling opinions may change.


I do think it is fair for someone to get banned for accidentally taking a PED, IF it is there second offense. As mentioned above, it is their livelihood at stake--meaning, they should be extremely cautious as to what they use/ingest.

I'd hate to see innocent players get banned, however, if someone unknowingly uses PEDs once and gets caught, I highly doubt they'd unknowingly use again. It's just that simple. My point is, I think the harsher consequences are justified.

I don't think there would be many players banned for getting caught using twice. And those that are banned, I'd say they rightfully deserve it (i.e. ARod).

texasdave
02-06-2013, 03:34 PM
Of tangential consideration, I wonder how many players use because they feel the pressure to "keep up with the Arods"? They see/hear of players using and take note of the benefits. And then they feel pressured to do the same for fear of being left behind production-wise. After all, there is a lot of money at stake and, in a sense, they are competing with the other players for their share of the pie.

UrbanMeyer
02-06-2013, 03:57 PM
I completely understand where texasdave, Kilgore, and JB are coming from. It is truly difficult to grasp a situation where an athlete would accidently take PEDs twice. After all, these players are adults and this is their profession. They should be able to take responsibility for what they put into their bodies.

My argument is the second offense. Assuming an individual knowingly took a banned substance the first time, then somehow tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone (which can happen naturally, though rare) or a banned substance that they may not have been entirely aware of taking. Is it fair to this person to be banned from baseball FOR LIFE over a possible accident? I don't think so. We can argue that he was wrong for knowingly taking a banned substance the first time... because he was. But can we really blame someone for doing so when they feel their performance might be lacking while competitors could be gaining a competitive advantage illegally? Like we have established, this game is their livelihood. Therefore they are going to strive to be the best they can be.

I feel that baseball is doing their part and doing it well. They just passed legislation to increase in-season testing for all players. While there maybe issues with enforcement for some, there is no doubting that the game is MUCH cleaner now than it was not even a decade ago.

JB12
02-06-2013, 05:44 PM
I completely understand where texasdave, Kilgore, and JB are coming from. It is truly difficult to grasp a situation where an athlete would accidently take PEDs twice. After all, these players are adults and this is their profession. They should be able to take responsibility for what they put into their bodies.

My argument is the second offense. Assuming an individual knowingly took a banned substance the first time, then somehow tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone (which can happen naturally, though rare) or a banned substance that they may not have been entirely aware of taking. Is it fair to this person to be banned from baseball FOR LIFE over a possible accident? I don't think so. We can argue that he was wrong for knowingly taking a banned substance the first time... because he was. But can we really blame someone for doing so when they feel their performance might be lacking while competitors could be gaining a competitive advantage illegally? Like we have established, this game is their livelihood. Therefore they are going to strive to be the best they can be.

I feel that baseball is doing their part and doing it well. They just passed legislation to increase in-season testing for all players. While there maybe issues with enforcement for some, there is no doubting that the game is MUCH cleaner now than it was not even a decade ago.


I respect your persistence in defending your argument. I acknowledge your points, and understand where you are coming from.

I think after a first offense, the player should be hyper-vigilant in knowing exactly what they are taking. I've never heard of a player getting busted for having naturally high levels of testosterone, although I do understand how this could happen (albeit highly highly unlikely).

And regarding your question that I bolded above--I think we can absolutely blame a player for cheating, regardless of the circumstances. As you mentioned, the league has cracked down on this and testing will be provided to each player next year, therefore this shouldn't be happening at all (and if it is, it will be caught). But I think a player who cheats, in order to keep with the crowd, is just as guilty as anyone else. That seems harsh, I know, but I don't see any other way to articulate that point of view.

BlackPete Ibold
02-06-2013, 07:18 PM
Braun's explanation for being in Bosch's books makes sense, and I believe his explanation. It doesn't change the fact that Braun tested positive for PEDs and got off on a lame technicality. He is a cheater and I don't take him seriously as a baseball player.

I wish that baseball would stiffen the penalty for PEDs. 50 games is a joke. If I were king the penalties would be:

First offense- 162 games, plus player is ineligible for the playoffs in any season that a suspension is served.

Second offense- lifetime ban.





Wait a minute here... why does this explanation make any sense?

The fact is he admittedly paid thousands of dollars to consult with a doctor who is one of the foremost PED supporters in the world. If a guy admits consulting with Victor Conte at Balco, what is the purpose of doing so if not for the clear or the cream? Braun's situation is identical to that.

I agree though that he was obviously guilty before. I agree that the penalties need to be ramped up to just what you suggest.

But for anybody to believe Braun now -- well, lets just repeat the whole "fool me once" aphorism that GWB made into a Who song... You can't get fooled again

Kilgore_Trout
02-06-2013, 09:09 PM
Gotta agree with you, BlackPete. Based on a few articles I have read, Braun's own lawyer indicated that the value Anthony Bosch brought to the defense's case was "negligible." Why would they owe a guy who provided only "negligible" insight upwards of $20,000? Did everybody they talk to in preparation for their defense receive such high payment as well? It's all very strange to me.

I believe in the age-old adage of "innocent until proven guilty." I truly believe it to be an American ideal (though not strictly American, if we want to get technical) that is based in reason and justice, but at this point it's hard not to want to hold your nose whenever Braun opens his mouth. I can't be the only one that smells fraud-sauce in his breath.

Over in the ORG, a fellow poster referred to Ryan as Teflon Braun. If all of these allegations are true, I really don't think I can refer to him as anything else from here on out. Gold, I tell ya. Gold.

UrbanMeyer
02-06-2013, 11:00 PM
Based on a few articles I have read, Braun's own lawyer indicated that the value Anthony Bosch brought to the defense's case was "negligible." Why would they owe a guy who provided only "negligible" insight upwards of $20,000?

Might this be the reason that Braun was listed as owing Anthony Bosch money? I believe it was Braun himself who mentioned that they owed him. Supposedly they were in 'dispute' over the amount of money they should pay him for his 'negligible' (there's that word again) contribution to their case. Still sounds to me like they have a legitimate defense here.

I'm just trying to look at this as objectionably as possible. But boy do I sound like a Braun homer. :eek:

Kilgore_Trout
02-06-2013, 11:13 PM
Fair point about the dispute money, Urban. But at the end of the day, Braun avoided a suspension after failing a PED test on a technicality. Following that debacle, he ends up on a list for owing Anthony Bosch money. I think it's more than fair to question his honesty.

I also think you should have quoted the part where I said "innocent until proven guilty."

chuck6660
02-07-2013, 01:31 AM
Not to cause a ruckus, but has anyone else noticed a trend with players testing positve over the last several years...I would wager at least 80% have a hispanic connection, perhaps because the labs are in Miami or it is prevalent in Latin American leagues. Players that come to mind, ARod, Manny Ramirez, Edison Volguez, Grandal, Melky Cabrera, Bartolo Colon, just saying :dunno:

texasdave
02-07-2013, 01:33 AM
Ryan Braunchez. LOL.

Girevik
02-07-2013, 09:50 AM
Say what you want about Volquez, but does this not point to a "loophole" in the system? He played the system perfectly. He knew he was going to sit out anyways while rehabbing. The 'roids would help his rehab process. Take the suspension of 50 games, which was still shorter than the DL stint and come back stronger.

He should have really had to serve the 50 AFTER his return from the DL if you ask me.

Then the team would just take the player off the DL about 50 days before they figured he'd be ready.

The big issue for the player is the pay...they miss the 50 days of pay regardless when the suspension is served.

JB12
02-07-2013, 11:15 AM
^^

Just out of curiosity, where does that money go? Does it need to be forwarded from to the organization to the league (bypassing the player) OR does the organization hold onto it? I'd say the second scenario makes the most sense, however, you never know with the MLB...

texasdave
02-07-2013, 01:18 PM
Baseball funnels fine money either to a central fund, which is shared among the league's 30 teams, or in some cases it goes to the charity of the player's choice, according to Rich Levin, the league's spokesman. Baseball player fines and suspensions are considered minimal when compared to the other leagues.

Read more: When MLB players are fined, where does the money go? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/67744#ixzz2KEc2T2Eb

BlackPete Ibold
02-07-2013, 05:24 PM
Without grabbing a soapbox, (or a high horse), wanted to make a comment about "innocent until proven guilty". This is, and certainly should be, the standard notion for a Criminal conviction. It is NOT, and most certainly should NOT be the standard for how society views a particular person or act.


In essence, our framers believed that imprisonment was such a harsh penalty that they 'would rather free 10 guilty men than convict 1 innocent one'. But that standard does not exist in other areas of the law, like civil tort law.

Look at OJ Simpson. He was aquitted in the criminal case for murder, but found responsible for the act of killing Ron Goldman and his ex in a civil lawsuit. Do these facts make him 'innocent' in the eyes of society? I'd say heck no. Take Casey Anthony -- aquitted by a jury but certainly guilty in the eyes of the public.


And this is how is should be. If all the formal requirements for a criminal conviction are not present, the law must protect all of us equally and be blind to the (horrible) nature of the charges. Braun hiding behind the technicality of transport of his samples is fair because that is the way the system was supposed to work based on the collectively bargained agreement that created it.

But as a society (or even just as individuals) we are not forced to follow the same narrow rules that govern legal cases. We each should have the sense to know what is and isn't, regardless of a claim of a Govt, Sport, team, or player.

As such I do not feel even a bit unfair to judge Casey Anthony and OJ guilty of murder, and to judge Ryan Braun, Roger Clemens, and B*nds all guilty of using steroids.


(note -- not comparing juicing to murder, but the legal principles and the public responses do have much in common.)

WDE
02-08-2013, 12:42 AM
What a cheat. I'm glad being a reds fan our guys stay off these lists. Or we trade them before we find out. Ala grandal

I know we really want to believe that all of our players are as clean as possible, but to be honest, nobody really knows. I think it is highly unlikely guys like Joey Votto would be taking PEDs. I mean, the guy lives and breathes playing baseball. He's not in it for the fame, stats, or money. I don't see any reason for him to take PEDs. But, you really never truly know. We are just fans, and we can't see what really is going on in our clubhouse. We just hope our Reds are doing it the right way, and so far for the most part, it looks like MLB has found most of our players to be innocent. Let's hope that continues.