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nheath22
02-11-2013, 10:39 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/report-cleveland-indians-win-michael-bourn-sweepstakes-015757109--mlb.html

Looks like the Indians outfield may not have a spot for Stubbs everyday... Bourn, Swisher, and Brantley would be the everyday starters by my estimation with Stubbs coming off the bench as a 4th outfielder unless Swisher is going to DH.

That being said, Cleveland's lineup will be pretty good again next year with Cabrera and Kipnis to combine with their outfield. Might be contenders in the AL Central depending on how Detroit holds up this year.

90reds
02-11-2013, 10:59 PM
I've read some people saying they should move Stubbs to left and Swisher to either DH or first, but I don't think Stubbs is good enough offensively to play left field. You can almost deal with a .200 hitter if he plays good defense in center, but I don't see how you can put up with that kind of production from left field. So it looks like the Stubbs era in Cleveland didn't even last til Spring Training.

90reds
02-11-2013, 11:00 PM
Also I still don't think Cleveland has the pitching to compete with Detroit or the other top AL teams, but that lineup is a lot scarier than it looked before

BlackPete Ibold
02-11-2013, 11:11 PM
Swisher will be the every day DH, Stubbs will start in CF.

At least for the first 100 to 120 games anyway!

Vander
02-12-2013, 10:09 AM
Can't really blame them for not handing the keys to Stubbs after his past few years of regression. However, he's a pretty good 4th outfielder, and if they contend, might (..... might) have some trade value at the deadline. It all really depends on whether or not Tito thinks he can "fix" him or not.

But I really don't understand why so many analysts suddenly think they can contend for a wild card when their rotation is being led by Ubaldo and Masterson... Bourn is good, but he can't pitch, and that's what they need more than anything.

nheath22
02-12-2013, 10:30 AM
Can't really blame them for not handing the keys to Stubbs after his past few years of regression. However, he's a pretty good 4th outfielder, and if they contend, might (..... might) have some trade value at the deadline. It all really depends on whether or not Tito thinks he can "fix" him or not.

But I really don't understand why so many analysts suddenly think they can contend for a wild card when their rotation is being led by Ubaldo and Masterson... Bourn is good, but he can't pitch, and that's what they need more than anything.

Definitiely agree their pitching is their Achilles heel, but their lineup is pretty solid.

Masterson and Jiminez are decent starters but definitely not aces for a staff. Both are somewhat consistent but never dominant in their careers.
Bret Meyers is a wild card from not starting last year for most of the year, but if he can muster up his old stuff, he could be a decent middle of the rotation guy.
Trever Bauer or one of their other young guys will probably be in their rotation as well. Bauer has talent and could turn into a decent starter although he definitely has a big learning curve ahead of him.

A signing like Loshe could go a long way for them in my opinion and give bauer more time to develop while allowing them to contend now.

Vander
02-12-2013, 11:33 AM
Definitiely agree their pitching is their Achilles heel, but their lineup is pretty solid.

Masterson and Jiminez are decent starters but definitely not aces for a staff. Both are somewhat consistent but never dominant in their careers.
Bret Meyers is a wild card from not starting last year for most of the year, but if he can muster up his old stuff, he could be a decent middle of the rotation guy.
Trever Bauer or one of their other young guys will probably be in their rotation as well. Bauer has talent and could turn into a decent starter although he definitely has a big learning curve ahead of him.

A signing like Loshe could go a long way for them in my opinion and give bauer more time to develop while allowing them to contend now.

I agree that their offense will be legit, but that won't get them a wild card if they can't keep runs off the board. And as for signing Lohse, I honestly would have used the money they just spent of Bourn on him. Ask yourself this: Which is weaker? An Indians offense without Bourne, or an Indians rotation without Lohse?

Now, I don't know what their financial situation looks like right now, so for all I know, they're working on signing Lohse as we speak. But still, as things stand, I think Lohse would have been a better signing. If I were an Indians fan, I just wouldn't trust Masterson or Ubaldo at all right now.

Kilgore_Trout
02-12-2013, 01:10 PM
I think it's a solid addition for the Indians, though I do agree with the poster above me who suggested that a Lohse signing may have been more beneficial. Just a cursory glance over their rotation's statistics for last season suggests a dire need of a reliable arm. Barring health, Lohse could have been that guy.

Not that I particularly care, but it will be interesting to see what happens with Stubbs. John Heyman suggested in an article on CBS Sports that Drew is "eminently available," or at least the odd man out.

nheath22
02-12-2013, 01:25 PM
I think it's a solid addition for the Indians, though I do agree with the poster above me who suggested that a Lohse signing may have been more beneficial. Just a cursory glance over their rotation's statistics for last season suggests a dire need of a reliable arm. Barring health, Lohse could have been that guy.


From what I have heard about Lohse is that many analysts think he is asking for both too much money and too many years for many teams to think of signing him. While we can look at the stats from last year and say he could be an ace pitcher right now, he definitely has been been consistant throughout his career and could just as easily flop as put up another good season in 2013. Bourn was the safer play in my opinion in terms of knowing what you are going to get.

With 2 new guys in the rotation this year also, hard to compare all of the numbers to last year, but they definitely could use all the help they can get in the pitching department in order to become a contender.

Vander
02-12-2013, 01:50 PM
From what I have heard about Lohse is that many analysts think he is asking for both too much money and too many years for many teams to think of signing him. While we can look at the stats from last year and say he could be an ace pitcher right now, he definitely has been been consistant throughout his career and could just as easily flop as put up another good season in 2013. Bourn was the safer play in my opinion in terms of knowing what you are going to get.

With 2 new guys in the rotation this year also, hard to compare all of the numbers to last year, but they definitely could use all the help they can get in the pitching department in order to become a contender.

Honestly, they're both risky free agents. Your points on Lohse are more than valid. However, Bourne is also risky as his entire value is based on being fast. As soon as he slows down a little bit, there goes his career.

But you can't look at the two in a vacuum. We're talking about a team that already had a pretty good offense, but with a starting rotation that, quite frankly, has been terrible.

holster10
02-12-2013, 02:10 PM
Cleveland trying "to buy" a competitive team. Never been a fan of Nick Swisher but kudos to him for hitting "pay dirt".

JB12
02-12-2013, 02:15 PM
Does anyone know the status of Cleveland's minor league pitching. Any potential down there that might make an appearance this year? Not that it'd be enough to really make that push that their rotation needs... although, stranger things have happened.

nheath22
02-12-2013, 03:01 PM
Does anyone know the status of Cleveland's minor league pitching. Any potential down there that might make an appearance this year? Not that it'd be enough to really make that push that their rotation needs... although, stranger things have happened.

This article I read this morning talks about some of their young guys who might make the rotation this year including Corey Kluber, Scott Kazmir, and Trever Bauer. Not to mention Zach McCalister who started several games for them last year and could be better after an MLB off season. Interesting read and good overall analysis of the Tribe's rotation.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2013/02/cleveland_indians_2013_spring_2.html

Captain13
02-12-2013, 03:29 PM
Trevor Bauer is supposed to be the real deal, he was part of the Choo trade. We will see how he pans out; how many "can't miss" pitching prospects have we seen miss in Cincy, or Louisville or Dayton or Billings...

Vander
02-12-2013, 04:08 PM
Trevor Bauer is supposed to be the real deal, he was part of the Choo trade. We will see how he pans out; how many "can't miss" pitching prospects have we seen miss in Cincy, or Louisville or Dayton or Billings...

I think the "can't miss" label is a bit tarnished now that he's been traded and we have a better idea of what his mind set is. He's kind of a loon and his warm up routine is enough to make you think he'll wear down pretty quickly.

nheath22
02-12-2013, 05:04 PM
Trevor Bauer is supposed to be the real deal, he was part of the Choo trade. We will see how he pans out; how many "can't miss" pitching prospects have we seen miss in Cincy, or Louisville or Dayton or Billings...

His short time in the majors last year definitley had some rough outings, but maybe he will settle down during his second year in the Bigs. He has electric stuff, but his control could use some work. I am not sold he will be a starter in the league for very long, but we shall see.

BlackPete Ibold
02-12-2013, 05:05 PM
So in terms of 4th outfielders, who would you prefer for the Reds, Stubbs or Heisey?

Stubbs costs too much (and will cost more next season), so for budget I am happy with Heisey. But if it were cost neutral, as much as I hate to say it, I'd prob go with Stubbs just for late game defense and ability to steal a base.

90reds
02-13-2013, 02:41 AM
Does it amuse anyone else when they read articles praising the Indians offseason and one of the positives mentioned is Drew Stubbs? Wait til they watch him hit.

mth123
02-13-2013, 06:11 AM
So in terms of 4th outfielders, who would you prefer for the Reds, Stubbs or Heisey?

Stubbs costs too much (and will cost more next season), so for budget I am happy with Heisey. But if it were cost neutral, as much as I hate to say it, I'd prob go with Stubbs just for late game defense and ability to steal a base.

If Bruce or Ludwick goes down, who do you want starting and trying to provide some offense 4 or 5 days per week? I think Heisey is limited, but for me, he wins that contest in a landslide. Heisey >>> Stubbs.

DGullett35
02-13-2013, 03:34 PM
The Cleveland Plain Dealer is saying Swisher will play mostly 1st base this year. He did a good job at that position for the Yanks last year. The Indians will have one of the fastest OF in all of baseball. Im guessing Stubbs in LF, Bourn in CF, and Brantley in RF. No way Bourn plays any other position but CF with the biggest contract the Indians have ever given out. The second highest was Roberto Alomars 4 yrs 32 mil back in 1998. That franchise spends next to nothing.

90reds
02-13-2013, 05:51 PM
I'm pretty sure Swisher's contract was actually bigger (4 yrs, 56 mil if I'm not mistaken). But yeah, I agree that Bourn will stay in center

LukeSho
02-14-2013, 10:34 AM
I like the Bourn pickup in terms of bringing in more fans, which Cleveland needs. But I feel like the Swisher and Bourn money could've been used better. They won't get very far without better pitching IMO.

Both decent pickups, but I see them finishing 3rd in the division this year.

90reds
02-14-2013, 12:05 PM
I agree. I think Lohse would have been a better signing for them

DGullett35
02-14-2013, 03:33 PM
I'm pretty sure Swisher's contract was actually bigger (4 yrs, 56 mil if I'm not mistaken). But yeah, I agree that Bourn will stay in center

You are right. Bourn would be the second highest contract in franchise history. I also agree that Loshe would have been a better pick up but he is 34 yrs. old. Maybe some teams see him as on his way out. Have to admit that the Tribe probably has the fastest OF in all the bigs. I wonder what the over/under is on stolen bases for that team this year. All three of them guys can reach 30 easily if healthy.

90reds
02-14-2013, 04:11 PM
And if, in the case of Stubbs, they can get on base!

BlackPete Ibold
02-14-2013, 06:11 PM
You are right. Bourn would be the second highest contract in franchise history. I also agree that Loshe would have been a better pick up but he is 34 yrs. old. Maybe some teams see him as on his way out. Have to admit that the Tribe probably has the fastest OF in all the bigs. I wonder what the over/under is on stolen bases for that team this year. All three of them guys can reach 30 easily if healthy.



It is amazing how fast the game is turning back into a speed game from just a power one.

Now, I don't think it will go back to the 80's simply b/c there re too many bandboxes and too few parks like Miami's new one (and none with crazy fast astroturf). But I do think that the speed element has rapidly rising in value of GMs... Look at what the Twins got for Revere, look at the Tribe stockpiling speedy OFs

Makes me all the happier that the Reds appear to have the ace of the speed deck just waiting in Louisville. Can't Wait!

LukeSho
02-15-2013, 02:11 AM
It is amazing how fast the game is turning back into a speed game from just a power one.

Now, I don't think it will go back to the 80's simply b/c there re too many bandboxes and too few parks like Miami's new one (and none with crazy fast astroturf). But I do think that the speed element has rapidly rising in value of GMs... Look at what the Twins got for Revere, look at the Tribe stockpiling speedy OFs

Makes me all the happier that the Reds appear to have the ace of the speed deck just waiting in Louisville. Can't Wait!


I think there's some validity there for sure. It seems like as the value of good pitching continues to trend upward, teams are looking to counter with high OBP guys who can manufacture runs. Obviously there's always a place for power hitters, but speedy guys who can get on base seem to be almost as valuable, if not more valuable than the power hitter who's more prone to strikeouts. (I have no factual backing here, just my observation)

Tribefan33
02-16-2013, 03:08 AM
Also I still don't think Cleveland has the pitching to compete with Detroit or the other top AL teams, but that lineup is a lot scarier than it looked before

i dont think top AL teams have enough pitching to stop the Indians from scoring, but the indians do have a deep and overly talented BP

the only teams cleveland might have trouble with are Detroit, Toronto, white sux only because even the best cleveland teams struggle with them for some reason, and thats about it

Tribefan33
02-16-2013, 03:10 AM
I agree. I think Lohse would have been a better signing for them

LOL Loshe sucked in the AL

mth123
02-16-2013, 03:34 AM
i dont think top AL teams have enough pitching to stop the Indians from scoring, but the indians do have a deep and overly talented BP

the only teams cleveland might have trouble with are Detroit, Toronto, white sux only because even the best cleveland teams struggle with them for some reason, and thats about it

Not seeing it. Exactly where did they improve from last season? Swisher was a decent addition, but he doesn't offset the loss of Shin Soo Choo. Bourn is a good CF and lead-off guy and probably moves the needle a bit. The rest are just treading water IMO. Mark Reynolds in, Travis Hafner out. Drew Stubbs isn't much. Rotation is still poor IMO.

Tribefan33
02-16-2013, 03:50 AM
Not seeing it. Exactly where did they improve from last season? Swisher was a decent addition, but he doesn't offset the loss of Shin Soo Choo. Bourn is a good CF and lead-off guy and probably moves the needle a bit. The rest are just treading water IMO. Mark Reynolds in, Travis Hafner out. Drew Stubbs isn't much. Rotation is still poor IMO.


Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really :laugh:

Same with Hafner and Reynolds, last 3 years Reynolds has 82 HRs to Hafners 38, 70 Doubles to Hafners 51 and again he stays healthy, so thats another HUGE upgrade, i mean if you cant see a almost 50 HR diffrence isn't incredibly significant then idk what to tell you other then you more then likley cant even spell the word baseball let alone should be talking about it

what about adding Bourn over Damon/Carerra/Cunningham?
or Chisenhall over Hannahan?


but its clear you just wanted to troll and get owned while looking like a fool in the process, and thats fine, but do some research next time chump

texasdave
02-16-2013, 05:58 AM
Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really :laugh:

Same with Hafner and Reynolds, last 3 years Reynolds has 82 HRs to Hafners 38, 70 Doubles to Hafners 51 and again he stays healthy, so thats another HUGE upgrade, i mean if you cant see a almost 50 HR diffrence isn't incredibly significant then idk what to tell you other then you more then likley cant even spell the word baseball let alone should be talking about it

what about adding Bourn over Damon/Carerra/Cunningham?
or Chisenhall over Hannahan?


but its clear you just wanted to troll and get owned while looking like a fool in the process, and thats fine, but do some research next time chump

If you want to come onto this board and discuss baseball, that is fine. The more the merrier. However, this board is not the place to disparage other posters. So how about showing a little respect and keeping your posts on topic? That's not too much to ask, is it? Thanks.

dabvu2498
02-16-2013, 06:29 AM
If you want to come onto this board and discuss baseball, that is fine. The more the merrier. However, this board is not the place to disparage other posters. So how about showing a little respect and keeping your posts on topic? That's not too much to ask, is it? Thanks.

Agreed. The name-calling, in particular, has no place on this board. If you disagree with another poster, you can make your argument in a civil manner.

BlackPete Ibold
02-16-2013, 10:41 AM
I'd say the Tribe is better but still going to have a mediocre record due to bad pitching.

Also, adding Reynolds and Stubbs might make wind farming a more popular alternative energy source option for the greater Cleveland area, but probably won't help the baseball team that much

Vander
02-16-2013, 11:35 AM
Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really :laugh:

Same with Hafner and Reynolds, last 3 years Reynolds has 82 HRs to Hafners 38, 70 Doubles to Hafners 51 and again he stays healthy, so thats another HUGE upgrade, i mean if you cant see a almost 50 HR diffrence isn't incredibly significant then idk what to tell you other then you more then likley cant even spell the word baseball let alone should be talking about it

what about adding Bourn over Damon/Carerra/Cunningham?
or Chisenhall over Hannahan?


but its clear you just wanted to troll and get owned while looking like a fool in the process, and thats fine, but do some research next time chump

First of all, you're coming off as an immature child desperately seeking attention in this post. Bad form, man...

Second of all, there are a few flaws in your reasoning. First of all, why are you focusing on three years instead of just last year? Going on three years includes two years ago when Choo was injury-stricken and had a horrible year. That one year completely tilts the scales to Swisher (of course, you knew that, which is why you picked three years). If you look at just last year, then Swisher and Choo are pretty equivalent, but different. Choo has more speed and OBP, but Swisher has the edge on power. Swisher was also streakier, whereas Choo was a consistent .300 hitter from the lead-off spot (only hit .227 from the 3 hole).

The differences are far more nuanced than you make them out to be. Your offense is better this year than last (not because of Swisher, but as a whole), but your line up is going to be frustrating from the strikeouts. Also, while Stubbs has potential, he's most likely going to be a black hole in your lineup like he was in ours.

But all of that is meaningless unless your rotation can keep you in the game. Are you really confident in a rotation that is led by Masterson and Ubaldo? I wouldn't be... The indians will be better this year, but I think the best you can really hope for is to hover around .500. Remember, last year, the Indians had the worst run differential in the American League, and second to worst in the majors (only the Astros were worse). That's a lot of ground to cover in one offseason. Cleveland is definitely helping themselves and are on the right path, but I think it's a little early to start bragging...

EDIT: One more thing...


LOL Loshe sucked in the AL

His ERA last year against the American League was 1.66. If that's your definition of "sucked", then what about Ubaldo? :confused:

Tribefan33
02-16-2013, 02:17 PM
If you want to come onto this board and discuss baseball, that is fine. The more the merrier. However, this board is not the place to disparage other posters. So how about showing a little respect and keeping your posts on topic? That's not too much to ask, is it? Thanks.

im not going to show respect to people who respond to my post in a pure biased manner because thats not showing respect to me. come informed or not at all to my post

Tribefan33
02-16-2013, 02:26 PM
First of all, you're coming off as an immature child desperately seeking attention in this post. Bad form, man...

Second of all, there are a few flaws in your reasoning. First of all, why are you focusing on three years instead of just last year? Going on three years includes two years ago when Choo was injury-stricken and had a horrible year. That one year completely tilts the scales to Swisher (of course, you knew that, which is why you picked three years). If you look at just last year, then Swisher and Choo are pretty equivalent, but different. Choo has more speed and OBP, but Swisher has the edge on power. Swisher was also streakier, whereas Choo was a consistent .300 hitter from the lead-off spot (only hit .227 from the 3 hole).

The differences are far more nuanced than you make them out to be. Your offense is better this year than last (not because of Swisher, but as a whole), but your line up is going to be frustrating from the strikeouts. Also, while Stubbs has potential, he's most likely going to be a black hole in your lineup like he was in ours.

But all of that is meaningless unless your rotation can keep you in the game. Are you really confident in a rotation that is led by Masterson and Ubaldo? I wouldn't be... The indians will be better this year, but I think the best you can really hope for is to hover around .500. Remember, last year, the Indians had the worst run differential in the American League, and second to worst in the majors (only the Astros were worse). That's a lot of ground to cover in one offseason. Cleveland is definitely helping themselves and are on the right path, but I think it's a little early to start bragging...

EDIT: One more thing...



His ERA last year against the American League was 1.66. If that's your definition of "sucked", then what about Ubaldo? :confused:

first of all no i didnt
second of all you dont wanna go back 3 years? fine lets go back 5, or even 7 years. 1 year is too small of a sample size but you knew last year was a year choo was almost on Swishers level but not quite but you already knew that and its why you choose just 1 year. Choo's BA and OBP is only slightly better then Swisher, but again Swisher plays more games and stays healthy so that outweighs BA And OBP because those mean nothing if he's not even seeing PT, which alone makes Swisher the better player.

if you wanna go back the last 5 years and compare stats, Swisher has 129 HRs to Choos 80. Swisher has 4 more Doubles.

a healthy Masterson was one of the best pitchers in all of baseball so yes im confident in a rotation led by him, not Jimenez so much but he's not going to be leading the rotation (probably the #3 guy at best, more then likley the #4) so im not sure where thats comming from.

why just cherry pick what he did last year? what about 01-06 when he was in Minnesota and the lowest his ERA ever was was 4.18?

Tribefan33
02-16-2013, 02:28 PM
I'd say the Tribe is better but still going to have a mediocre record due to bad pitching.




i doubt it, other teams still have to stop them from scoring which wont happen often

BlackPete Ibold
02-16-2013, 03:12 PM
DO NOT FEED

Vander
02-16-2013, 03:25 PM
im not going to show respect to people who respond to my post in a pure biased manner because thats not showing respect to me. come informed or not at all to my post

What you just basically said is that you refuse to show any respect for someone who has an opposing view from yours... Because they're just stupid... And stuff... That, good sir, is child-like. But I'll humor you because it's Saturday and I'm bored...



second of all you dont wanna go back 3 years? fine lets go back 5, or even 7 years. 1 year is too small of a sample size but you knew last year was a year choo was almost on Swishers level but not quite but you already knew that and its why you choose just 1 year. Choo's BA and OBP is only slightly better then Swisher, but again Swisher plays more games and stays healthy so that outweighs BA And OBP because those mean nothing if he's not even seeing PT, which alone makes Swisher the better player.

if you wanna go back the last 5 years and compare stats, Swisher has 129 HRs to Choos 80. Swisher has 4 more Doubles.

So basically, you believe that players don't change from year to year? What someone is right now is what they will be for the next three, five or even seven years?

The reason why I always go year to year with players is because they age, change batting stances, change approaches. They adapt. Three years ago, Johnny Cueto was a fairly good pitcher, but then he changed his wind-up to the Luis Tiant style that you see now. He went from good to great in one year. But if you take his stats in aggregate from the past three or even five years, you would think that he was just on a hot streak or getting lucky. Players evolve.

As for Choo and Swisher, by the stats, I was actually doing you a favor. If you look at the past five years, Choo blows Swisher out of the water. You bring up that Swisher had more home runs as if that is the only stat that counts, even though Choo leads in OPS, OBP, WAR and so many others. Basically, over the past five years, Swisher has more power, and that's it.

Oh, and Choo played more games than Swisher did last year...


a healthy Masterson was one of the best pitchers in all of baseball so yes im confident in a rotation led by him, not Jimenez so much but he's not going to be leading the rotation (probably the #3 guy at best, more then likley the #4) so im not sure where thats comming from.

You're confident in a rotation that had the second worst ERA in the American League last year (5.25) and did very little to actually improve on it? This is why people in this thread are skeptical about the Indians succeeding this year. You're not going to the playoffs if your team pitches that badly again this year.


why just cherry pick what he did last year? what about 01-06 when he was in Minnesota and the lowest his ERA ever was was 4.18?

Yes, and Chris Carpenter was a crappy pitcher as well because his best ERA with the Blue Jays was 4.09... Are you actually serious about this? A LOT has happened to Lohse since he was a Twin. You're basically talking about two different pitchers.


i doubt it, other teams still have to stop them from scoring which wont happen often

I sure hope that offense is lights out. I honestly hope I'm wrong because Cleveland fans have suffered... A lot... But I just don't see it.


DO NOT FEED

*sigh*

Boredom got the better of me..

Tribefan33
02-16-2013, 03:56 PM
What you just basically said is that you refuse to show any respect for someone who has an opposing view from yours... Because they're just stupid... And stuff... That, good sir, is child-like. But I'll humor you because it's Saturday and I'm bored...



So basically, you believe that players don't change from year to year? What someone is right now is what they will be for the next three, five or even seven years?

The reason why I always go year to year with players is because they age, change batting stances, change approaches. They adapt. Three years ago, Johnny Cueto was a fairly good pitcher, but then he changed his wind-up to the Luis Tiant style that you see now. He went from good to great in one year. But if you take his stats in aggregate from the past three or even five years, you would think that he was just on a hot streak or getting lucky. Players evolve.

As for Choo and Swisher, by the stats, I was actually doing you a favor. If you look at the past five years, Choo blows Swisher out of the water. You bring up that Swisher had more home runs as if that is the only stat that counts, even though Choo leads in OPS, OBP, WAR and so many others. Basically, over the past five years, Swisher has more power, and that's it.

Oh, and Choo played more games than Swisher did last year...



You're confident in a rotation that had the second worst ERA in the American League last year (5.25) and did very little to actually improve on it? This is why people in this thread are skeptical about the Indians succeeding this year. You're not going to the playoffs if your team pitches that badly again this year.



Yes, and Chris Carpenter was a crappy pitcher as well because his best ERA with the Blue Jays was 4.09... Are you actually serious about this? A LOT has happened to Lohse since he was a Twin. You're basically talking about two different pitchers.



I sure hope that offense is lights out. I honestly hope I'm wrong because Cleveland fans have suffered... A lot... But I just don't see it.



*sigh*

Boredom got the better of me..


no the only reason you went with 1 year is because its the only year Choo might have been comparable to Swisher, no other logical reason possible. Choo does not blow Swisher out of the water in any stat, he has a slight advantage but nothing more but keep trying maybe some day you'll know what you're talking about, oh and Swisher has played alot more game then Choo the last 3 years, or 5 years, or whatever you want to go by outside of 1 year cherry picking stat.

i thought you said players change from year to year? so how come Choo can change from year to year but the Indians pitching staff cant? LOL what a moron, owned by you're own highly failed logic.

and where did i say Loshe was bad? he i said he sucked in the AL which was true, what you cant comprehend english?

Vander
02-16-2013, 04:10 PM
no the only reason you went with 1 year is because its the only year Choo might have been comparable to Swisher, no other logical reason possible. Choo does not blow Swisher out of the water in any stat, he has a slight advantage but nothing more but keep trying maybe some day you'll know what you're talking about, oh and Swisher has played alot more game then Choo the last 3 years, or 5 years, or whatever you want to go by outside of 1 year cherry picking stat.

i thought you said players change from year to year? so how come Choo can change from year to year but the Indians pitching staff cant? LOL what a moron, owned by you're own highly failed logic.

and where did i say Loshe was bad? he i said he sucked in the AL which was true, how mentally challenged are you that you cant comprehend a simple sentance?

Yeah, this is meme worthy...
http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/2334b524748d4006b733440ccedc1c9e/http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd377/shiverness/random/troll.png


DO NOT FEED

... Yeah... My bad...

Tribefan33
02-16-2013, 04:19 PM
its ok you dont understand how baseball works, you were proven wrong in every post you're butthurt i understand. just do some research and dont troll my post next time and maybe you'll be right just once




Yeah, this is meme worthy...
http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/2334b524748d4006b733440ccedc1c9e/http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd377/shiverness/random/troll.png



... Yeah... My bad...

Gallen5862
02-16-2013, 04:30 PM
no the only reason you went with 1 year is because its the only year Choo might have been comparable to Swisher, no other logical reason possible. Choo does not blow Swisher out of the water in any stat, he has a slight advantage but nothing more but keep trying maybe some day you'll know what you're talking about, oh and Swisher has played alot more game then Choo the last 3 years, or 5 years, or whatever you want to go by outside of 1 year cherry picking stat.

i thought you said players change from year to year? so how come Choo can change from year to year but the Indians pitching staff cant? LOL what a moron, owned by you're own highly failed logic.

and where did i say Loshe was bad? he i said he sucked in the AL which was true, what you cant comprehend english?

This board does not allow attacks on posters. Discuss ideas without attacking a poster.

Trajinous
02-16-2013, 06:16 PM
Tribes fans are silly. A baseball team's line-up is moot when said baseball team doesn't have even one solid starter. Good job on landing Bourn by not having to give up a draft pick, Cleveland rocks!

mgbrown66
02-16-2013, 07:53 PM
Tribes fans are silly. A baseball team's line-up is moot when said baseball team doesn't have even one solid starter. Good job on landing Bourn by not having to give up a draft pick, Cleveland rocks!

We ought to know. Sounds like the Griffey/Dunn Reds during the decade of 2000-2010.

Vander
02-16-2013, 08:25 PM
We ought to know. Sounds like the Griffey/Dunn Reds during the decade of 2000-2010.

*shudders*

mth123
02-16-2013, 08:40 PM
Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really :laugh:

Same with Hafner and Reynolds, last 3 years Reynolds has 82 HRs to Hafners 38, 70 Doubles to Hafners 51 and again he stays healthy, so thats another HUGE upgrade, i mean if you cant see a almost 50 HR diffrence isn't incredibly significant then idk what to tell you other then you more then likley cant even spell the word baseball let alone should be talking about it

what about adding Bourn over Damon/Carerra/Cunningham?
or Chisenhall over Hannahan?


but its clear you just wanted to troll and get owned while looking like a fool in the process, and thats fine, but do some research next time chump

A healthy Shin Soo Choo is an .875 to .900 OPS guy. Swisher is a pretty good .825 guy. Choo is a better defender and a better baseruner. At best it's a wash because io Choo's health status.

Reynolds last three seasons, .753, .806, .763. Pretty pedestrian for a one trick pony with no defensive or situational skills. Hafner has put-up .824, .811, .784. Not a world beater either for an offensive specialist. Hafner misses time, so Reynolds makes up for his lessser performance by probably being better than the bech guy who play's when Hafner doesn't. Wash IMO.

Bourn, as I acknowledged, is an upgrade, but speed guys on the wrong side of 30 don't excite me and apparantly the GMS around baseball who kept backing off from him agree for the most part.

I like Chisenhall's potential. We'll see about him.

You guys are playing Drew Stubbs in an OF corner and he's easily the best option at this point. I can't think of a bigger indictment of a team's offensive potential.

As for the troll stuff, I've been here for 7 years, have over 12000 posts and no one has ever accused me of that before. You have 9 posts and go on a rant. If you insist in going to the stats, that's a pretty good one to study IMO.

90reds
02-17-2013, 01:25 AM
The Indians won't finish higher than .500 this year. They just won't. Not with that rotation

holster10
02-20-2013, 11:57 AM
Is Bourn really worthy $12 mil a year as a table setter? Maybe so, but his game seems pretty flawed (high K's for little power) but yet he is still one of the best lead off types.

UCBrownsfan
02-20-2013, 05:18 PM
Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really

Choo's career OPS+ is 132 ---- Nick Swisher's best year is 129. Choo's average is better than Swisher's best. Swisher is much more consistent. Choo has had a better OPS+ 4 of the past 5 years, since he became a regular. Choo is also 2 years younger. According to Baseball Reference, Choo's 3 year war total is 10.2, and Swisher's is 8.4, despite the games missed by Choo.

coachpipe
02-20-2013, 06:10 PM
And my friends in cleveland wonder why I cant stand cleveland sports. He made it pretty clear. But to call someone out about not knowing anything about baseball and then proceed to only talk about HRs..There are more things that describe a good baseball player other than home runs.

I do however want to see the indians succeed. Do I think they will? No. I see them around .500 at the end of the year. We are Reds fans here on this board. We have seen what having an offense and no pitching is like. IT DOESNT WORK

SO I wish the indians luck and see them improving in the future, but as for this season, your expectations are set to high (trust me, like I said, as a reds fan I have set some expectations that i thought at the time were reasonable and come to find out I was WAY off)

REDREAD
02-20-2013, 07:16 PM
Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really

Choo's career OPS+ is 132 ---- Nick Swisher's best year is 129. Choo's average is better than Swisher's best. Swisher is much more consistent. Choo has had a better OPS+ 4 of the past 5 years, since he became a regular. Choo is also 2 years younger. According to Baseball Reference, Choo's 3 year war total is 10.2, and Swisher's is 8.4, despite the games missed by Choo.

I think if Choo was willing to sign an extension with CLE, they would've signed him. He apparently wanted to test the FA market, thus he was traded for a young arm. Swisher + Bourne + their other additions - Choo is potentially a pretty decent improvement in their overall offense. Like many rebuilding teams, there's some potential upside in their pitching, but it probably won't be good enough to contend next year.

If I was an Indians fan, I'd be thrilled with the moves they made over the winter. Think about back to the dark days as a Reds fan.. If the Reds had an offseason where they lost Dunn, yet gained players identical to Swisher/Bauer/Stubbs/Reynolds/Bourn/etc I think I would view that as progress, even if it wasn't likely we were going to contend. I don't follow CLE that closely, but it seems they were very weak in the OF last season.. I think they were forced to play some infielders out there due to lack of depth even. Cleveland didn't fix everything this offseason, but they are closer to contention than they were last year, IMO.

So yea, I agree with you that 2013 Choo is probably slightly better than 2013 Swisher, but the big picture is that Cleveland gets multiple years of Swisher instead of one year of Choo.

holster10
02-28-2013, 11:24 AM
Not a fan of Swisher. He was playing for the White Sox a few years back for one season and they couldn't wait to get rid of him. Not only was he terrible for the Sox apparently the local media painted him as a clubhouse cancer.