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View Full Version : Votto bat 2nd?



Rantly
04-10-2013, 03:37 PM
Since Votto obviously cannot drive the ball but continues to walk a lot and get his share of base hits, is it a crazy idea to bat him 2nd Phillips 3rd, Bruce 4th, Fazier 5th

Rantly
04-10-2013, 03:39 PM
Not permanently, just to take the pressure off until he get has head straight...assuming that will happen

tomnuetten
04-10-2013, 03:40 PM
it isnīt crazy but we have played less than 10 games this season...

you donīt change your line up with cause your best hitter had "not so good" 10 games

Rantly
04-10-2013, 03:55 PM
But it goes before this year, he hasn't homered since he came off his injury last year

coachpipe
04-10-2013, 04:08 PM
But it goes before this year, he hasn't homered since he came off his injury last year

other than the BOMB in spring training:thumbup:

mgbrown66
04-10-2013, 04:08 PM
I've seen Yugo's with more power than Votto post injury.

Falcon7
04-10-2013, 04:36 PM
Not crazy at all. Since he has transformed into a Hal or Sean. (Except for that $20+ million a year salary)
And please don't tell me about a torn meniscus sapping him of his power, it's beyond stupid.

Rantly
04-10-2013, 04:53 PM
it isnīt crazy but we have played less than 10 games this season...

you donīt change your line up with cause your best hitter had "not so good" 10 games

Dusty changes lineups when the wind blows, I think Votto would be a team player and accept it.

redsfan4486
04-10-2013, 05:30 PM
Since Votto obviously cannot drive the ball but continues to walk a lot and get his share of base hits, is it a crazy idea to bat him 2nd Phillips 3rd, Bruce 4th, Fazier 5th

No it's not a crazy idea at all it makes a lot of sence . Even before the injury with his high obp it was a thought of many but I doubt dusty will try it at all. But I am on board.

Rantly
04-10-2013, 06:04 PM
With Choo and Votto back to back...I can see both getting on, Phillips grounding to 2nd getting them over, Bruce striking out, Frazier base hit -2 runs

Raisor
04-11-2013, 11:39 AM
And please don't tell me about a torn meniscus sapping him of his power, it's beyond stupid.

He had a torn meniscus that sapped him of his power.

Now, call me "stupid".

Jamz
04-11-2013, 12:57 PM
In theory, if we're going by what statistics say would optimize our line-up, it would look like this:

Choo
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Phillips
etc.
etc.
etc.

KC2135
04-12-2013, 03:32 AM
i have torn meniscus and thats not his power issue. i know we paid this man a ton of money, but we just need to cool down. he will work it out.

reagansdaddy
04-12-2013, 08:22 AM
I can see one other possible bonus to moving Votto to 2nd in the order. It would limit the temptation for Dusty to sacrifice bunt!

Falcon7
04-12-2013, 12:52 PM
He had a torn meniscus that sapped him of his power.

Now, call me "stupid".

C'mon, "put your left knee cartilage behind that swing and drive it out of here"

PuffyPig
04-12-2013, 01:47 PM
Dusty changes lineups when the wind blows, I think Votto would be a team player and accept it.

Actually, Baker generally goes with the same line-up order when he has all his players. The line-up changes when the players do.

Falcon7
04-13-2013, 11:24 PM
Move him to lead off since he has NO power and only 2 rbi's on the year. He's great at walking or slapping a single to left field.

xsteve1
04-14-2013, 03:55 PM
Move him to lead off since he has NO power and only 2 rbi's on the year. He's great at walking or slapping a single to left field.

Agree he could be a good lead off guy with his ability to take walks. Bat Choo in the 3 spot.

Raisor
04-14-2013, 04:01 PM
April 14, 2013.

Old school 1983
04-14-2013, 04:06 PM
Votto has no protection in the lineup and is contantly pitched around. Think outside the box and use Phillips and choo to protect him and drive him in.

Cozart/Hamilton later in the year
Votto
Phillips
Choo
Frazier/Bruce
Frazier/Bruce
Hanigan/mes
Heisey/Paul or cozart if Hamilton gets called up.

Cozart sees more fastballs. Votto gets more pitches to hit bc Phillips and choo aren't as easy to strike out as Frazier and Bruce are behind him now. Plus choo can drive in runs in ways other than the homer.

Jamz
04-15-2013, 09:59 AM
Something worth noting is that, while yes Votto does get pitched around to an extent it's largely his approach that leads to being walked so much.

Old school 1983
04-15-2013, 11:31 AM
Something worth noting is that, while yes Votto does get pitched around to an extent it's largely his approach that leads to being walked so much.

I definitely agree with your assessment as well. Either way you look at it the man gets on base at an amazing rate. By putting him in the two hole along with Phillips at 3 and Choo at 4 it does three things in my mind:

1. Allows Phillips to be protected by Choo so he gets better pitches to hit and drive Votto in and maybe help to decrease his strikeout rate. As noted in ORG the reds have the highest k rate with risp.

2. Puts another hitter in Choo behind Votto that is not as susceptible to the strikeout as Bruce or Frazier. When you put the ball in play "luck" happens. Just ask the Cardinals. Choo can also drive in a run not via the homer. A major issue I see on this team. Plus if Bruce or Frazier enter feast mode, we all know Choo can get on base so he'll be a duck in the pond.

3. Sets up a situation when Bham is ready for him to leadoff. If he gets on his speed and stolen base ability will allow Votto to see more fastballs.

RedTeamGo!
04-16-2013, 01:32 PM
I definitely agree with your assessment as well. Either way you look at it the man gets on base at an amazing rate. By putting him in the two hole along with Phillips at 3 and Choo at 4 it does three things in my mind:

1. Allows Phillips to be protected by Choo so he gets better pitches to hit and drive Votto in and maybe help to decrease his strikeout rate. As noted in ORG the reds have the highest k rate with risp.

2. Puts another hitter in Choo behind Votto that is not as susceptible to the strikeout as Bruce or Frazier. When you put the ball in play "luck" happens. Just ask the Cardinals. Choo can also drive in a run not via the homer. A major issue I see on this team. Plus if Bruce or Frazier enter feast mode, we all know Choo can get on base so he'll be a duck in the pond.

3. Sets up a situation when Bham is ready for him to leadoff. If he gets on his speed and stolen base ability will allow Votto to see more fastballs.

I have a feeling Bham is not going to be ready this season. I think if we are expecting him to be a contributor this year we will be disappointed.

Old school 1983
04-16-2013, 03:54 PM
Redteamgo! You definitely could be right about Hamilton. I sort of feel that way too...that's why I listed it as the last reason. Part of me says he may be ready at some point and part of me doesn't. Another part of me says he may not be ready but still may be a better option than what we have and Walt won't want to trade pitching depth bc of injury issues for an outfield bat so Bham will get the call up anyway. It should be intriguing to see what happens. If the reds can get a righty power bat to put in the 4 hole or bruce and frazier can be consistent (No knock on BPs awesome season thus far) and move bp to two or find a good two hole bat if BP continues to tear it up then all of this bat votto two stuff will be a good laugh later in the year.

KC2135
04-17-2013, 06:17 PM
Redteamgo! You definitely could be right about Hamilton. I sort of feel that way too...that's why I listed it as the last reason. Part of me says he may be ready at some point and part of me doesn't. Another part of me says he may not be ready but still may be a better option than what we have and Walt won't want to trade pitching depth bc of injury issues for an outfield bat so Bham will get the call up anyway. It should be intriguing to see what happens. If the reds can get a righty power bat to put in the 4 hole or bruce and frazier can be consistent (No knock on BPs awesome season thus far) and move bp to two or find a good two hole bat if BP continues to tear it up then all of this bat votto two stuff will be a good laugh later in the year.

we dont have to rush BHam, we basically have him in Robinson already on our team. I would go ahead and say Robinson is a better defensive player at this point. As far as the Votto thing I wouldn't mind 1. Robinson 2. Choo 3. Phillips 4. Votto I only say this now because Phillips seems to be our best chance at driving in runs

Old school 1983
04-17-2013, 07:05 PM
we dont have to rush BHam, we basically have him in Robinson already on our team. I would go ahead and say Robinson is a better defensive player at this point. As far as the Votto thing I wouldn't mind 1. Robinson 2. Choo 3. Phillips 4. Votto I only say this now because Phillips seems to be our best chance at driving in runs

I could go for that but maybe switch choo and votto since he walks a ton, but I can see your line of thinking as well

Mastodon
04-18-2013, 09:37 PM
Something has to be done with Votto. He's almost one of the last players on the team right now I'd want up with bases loaded. Example, tonight he hit into a double play. When he does actually make contact with the ball it barely leaves the infield.

RedTeamGo!
04-18-2013, 10:55 PM
Something has to be done with Votto. He's almost one of the last players on the team right now I'd want up with bases loaded. Example, tonight he hit into a double play. When he does actually make contact with the ball it barely leaves the infield.

Nothing has to be done with Votto - he is in a slump... It's just magnified because it is the beginning of the season.

Old school 1983
04-19-2013, 10:23 AM
Nothing has to be done with Votto - he is in a slump... It's just magnified because it is the beginning of the season.

True. I mentioned batting votto second and choo 4th because of Bruce's and fraziers past strikeout issues. It seems as if they are cutting down in those thus far early in the year with the exception of opening day. So as long as that continues as well as Phillips clutch hitting, then ride it out with votto in the 3 hole. Ill take an over .500 obp in a slump all day so long as the people behind him get him in.

Raisor
04-19-2013, 05:52 PM
Someone with a +900 OPS to start the season is not in a "slump".

Reds are on pace to score more than 900 runs. Joey getting on base over 50% of the time is a big part of that.

Dude is on pace to get on base 382 times.

Old school 1983
04-19-2013, 05:57 PM
Someone with a +900 OPS to start the season is not in a "slump".

Reds are on pace to score more than 900 runs. Joey getting on base over 50% of the time is a big part of that.

Dude is on pace to get on base 382 times.

I used the term slump very loosely. I should have quoted it like you.

Raisor
04-23-2013, 05:57 PM
Kind of funny how this thread died.

Wonderful Monds
04-23-2013, 06:04 PM
i have torn meniscus and thats not his power issue. i know we paid this man a ton of money, but we just need to cool down. he will work it out.

Oh damn, glad we've cleared that up, now I know exactly every human person's torn meniscus is exactly like your torn meniscus.

demas863
04-23-2013, 10:50 PM
Since Votto obviously cannot drive the ball but continues to walk a lot and get his share of base hits, is it a crazy idea to bat him 2nd Phillips 3rd, Bruce 4th, Fazier 5th

Makes a lot of sense and is imaginative - and that is precisely why Dusty won't do it.

KC2135
04-24-2013, 08:24 PM
Oh damn, glad we've cleared that up, now I know exactly every human person's torn meniscus is exactly like your torn meniscus.

well, I didn't mean it that way. of course every situation is different

SwingKing01
04-25-2013, 01:15 AM
Choo
Votto
Phillips
Frazier
Bruce
Heisey
Mesoraco
Cozart
Pitcher

Unless Leske is pitching in which case bat Cozart 9th... :)

Old school 1983
04-25-2013, 11:35 AM
Choo
Votto
Phillips
Frazier
Bruce
Heisey
Mesoraco
Cozart
Pitcher

Unless Leske is pitching in which case bat Cozart 9th... :)

Idk. I think pitchers would pitch around the first three maybe just two if phillips cools off, which he is starting to do. I'm not saying walk them but try to let them get theirselves out then go right after Bruce and Frazier and the rest of the order who are prone to the strike out and impatient at bats.

Rantly
04-25-2013, 12:23 PM
Choo
Votto
Phillips
Frazier
Bruce
Heisey
Mesoraco
Cozart
Pitcher

Unless Leske is pitching in which case bat Cozart 9th... :)

OH OH....you have Phillips & Frazier, 2 RH back-to-back early in the lineuo....Dusty won't go for that

Old school 1983
04-25-2013, 12:37 PM
How about Mez 2nd. He's getting on base at a good clip, has legit pop, and has more speed than hanigan so the base clogger excuse couldn't be used as it was last year.

Thisyear
04-26-2013, 05:11 PM
I hate watching Cozart bat second, but I think it would be counterproductive to move your best hitter to SECOND. We are not even a month into the season and Votto has stated he still is not 100% comfortable at the plate. He is on-base 50% of the time. It does not matter how he gets on as long as he gets on. The hits will come and the sky is not falling.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 09:48 PM
I hate watching Cozart bat second, but I think it would be counterproductive to move your best hitter to SECOND. We are not even a month into the season and Votto has stated he still is not 100% comfortable at the plate. He is on-base 50% of the time. It does not matter how he gets on as long as he gets on. The hits will come and the sky is not falling.

The sky isn't falling. I'm sure the reds will hit again when they go up against a mediocre pitcher. They'll probably light him up for ten or 15 and we will all use the bloated statistics to convince ourselves our lineup is fine. It has too many players with a feast or famine approach. It divides up the consistent hitters and makes their production mean less because it can be pitched around or stranded on base by a good pitcher. This team is going to beat good pitching occasionally but not on the level it'd need to be done in the playoffs until Walt brings up or brings in players with a better approach at the plate and our team is put in a better lineup and defensive alignment by dusty

Thisyear
04-27-2013, 12:48 PM
The sky isn't falling. I'm sure the reds will hit again when they go up against a mediocre pitcher. They'll probably light him up for ten or 15 and we will all use the bloated statistics to convince ourselves our lineup is fine. It has too many players with a feast or famine approach. It divides up the consistent hitters and makes their production mean less because it can be pitched around or stranded on base by a good pitcher. This team is going to beat good pitching occasionally but not on the level it'd need to be done in the playoffs until Walt brings up or brings in players with a better approach at the plate and our team is put in a better lineup and defensive alignment by dusty

So let me get this right. You get to pick and choose the stats you want to prove a point. If they score ten or 15 runs we just throw those games out. That is not how it works. They obviously have an offensive problem right now, but it is not as bad as you make it out to be. Just for the record they are 3rd in all of baseball in runs scored. Obviously a few games has helped that but you can't pick and choose games to validate a point. It is 24 games into the season. People need to relax and enjoy a team that is GOOD. Until recently we could not say this.

Old school 1983
04-27-2013, 01:06 PM
So let me get this right. You get to pick and choose the stats you want to prove a point. If they score ten or 15 runs we just throw those games out. That is not how it works. They obviously have an offensive problem right now, but it is not as bad as you make it out to be. Just for the record they are 3rd in all of baseball in runs scored. Obviously a few games has helped that but you can't pick and choose games to validate a point. It is 24 games into the season. People need to relax and enjoy a team that is GOOD. Until recently we could not say this.

I never said this team wasn't good. They are a playoff caliber team. The feast or famine nature of the players on the team has been an issue for the past few seasons. I'm not picking and choosing. Look back at a few of the outbursts. They weren't against very good pitching or were contributed to by poor defense. When this team faces above average pitching they go super cold. The reds have too many feast or famine type hitters in their lineup. Plus with ludwick out they dont have a guy who can consistently be a threat behind votto. It leads to huge outbursts and cold streaks. I really don't care if the reds win by ten or 15 against poor pitching. That's not what will be out there when the chips are down in the playoffs. Sure regular season victories matter. I'd be dumb to say they don't. I hate to count my chickens before they hatch but chances are the reds will be in the playoffs. Once they are there, do you want to win? If so the reds need to find some guys that can give a more disciplined at bat. If you'd be happy with going cold in the playoffs against good pitching then we can keep fooling ourselves saying that this team is offensively better than they are by pointing to huge outbursts against average to below average pitching.

Thisyear
04-27-2013, 02:28 PM
I never said this team wasn't good. They are a playoff caliber team. The feast or famine nature of the players on the team has been an issue for the past few seasons. I'm not picking and choosing. Look back at a few of the outbursts. They weren't against very good pitching or were contributed to by poor defense. When this team faces above average pitching they go super cold. The reds have too many feast or famine type hitters in their lineup. Plus with ludwick out they dont have a guy who can consistently be a threat behind votto. It leads to huge outbursts and cold streaks. I really don't care if the reds win by ten or 15 against poor pitching. That's not what will be out there when the chips are down in the playoffs. Sure regular season victories matter. I'd be dumb to say they don't. I hate to count my chickens before they hatch but chances are the reds will be in the playoffs. Once they are there, do you want to win? If so the reds need to find some guys that can give a more disciplined at bat. If you'd be happy with going cold in the playoffs against good pitching then we can keep fooling ourselves saying that this team is offensively better than they are by pointing to huge outbursts against average to below average pitching.

I just don't buy into the notion of feast or famine. Of course throughout the season 99% of players are going to go through hot and cold streaks. It is the nature of the game. Just like you are going to score more runs against good pitchers rather than bad pitchers. It is common sense. It is not just the Reds who have a hard time hitting top of the rotation pitchers, it is every team. That is why they are top of the rotation pitchers. Speculating they wont win in the playoffs because of struggles in April is premature.

Old school 1983
04-27-2013, 02:54 PM
I just don't buy into the notion of feast or famine. Of course throughout the season 99% of players are going to go through hot and cold streaks. It is the nature of the game. Just like you are going to score more runs against good pitchers rather than bad pitchers. It is common sense. It is not just the Reds who have a hard time hitting top of the rotation pitchers, it is every team. That is why they are top of the rotation pitchers. Speculating they wont win in the playoffs because of struggles in April is premature.

In baseball of course you go through hot and cold streaks. Of course the better pitchers are going to allow less runs. That's why they are the better pitchers. This reds team doesn't only score less runs against good pitching but looks horrible. They have way too many similar bats in their lineup that are undisciplined and swing for the fences. This combined with GABP leads to blowing up poor pitching and getting the holes in your swing and weaknesses exploited by above average pitching. I'm not talking elite pitching who generally will own everyone. The reds struggle against anyone who is above average. Too many strike outs. Too many unproductive at bats. It's different to be shut out by a good pitcher but threaten a couple times a game and give good at bats. There are two guys on this team that give good at bats consistently. Choo and votto. Phillips can at times. The reds hardly ever even do that and if they do they strike out in key situations. If this team had a history of performing offensively for years it'd be premature to be worried in April. Since their coming out party in 2010 strikeouts, lack of plate discipline, and unproductive at bats have been an issue for this club. Sure some of it is because ludwick got hurt this year but its been an issue for some time. In all honesty I don't think the reds are too far off offensively. Adding one may e two guys and eliminating one maybe two feast or famine type guys will go a long way.

Thisyear
04-27-2013, 03:06 PM
In baseball of course you go through hot and cold streaks. Of course the better pitchers are going to allow less runs. That's why they are the better pitchers. This reds team doesn't only score less runs against good pitching but looks horrible. They have way too many similar bats in their lineup that are undisciplined and swing for the fences. This combined with GABP leads to blowing up poor pitching and getting the holes in your swing and weaknesses exploited by above average pitching. I'm not talking elite pitching who generally will own everyone. The reds struggle against anyone who is above average. Too many strike outs. Too many unproductive at bats. It's different to be shut out by a good pitcher but threaten a couple times a game and give good at bats. There are two guys on this team that give good at bats consistently. Choo and votto. Phillips can at times. The reds hardly ever even do that and if they do they strike out in key situations. If this team had a history of performing offensively for years it'd be premature to be worried in April. Since their coming out party in 2010 strikeouts, lack of plate discipline, and unproductive at bats have been an issue for this club. Sure some of it is because ludwick got hurt this year but its been an issue for some time. In all honesty I don't think the reds are too far off offensively. Adding one may e two guys and eliminating one maybe two feast or famine type guys will go a long way.

A team can not be filled from top to bottom with the top talent in the league. I concede this team needs another hitter, but I'll agree to disagree that this team is fundamentally flawed offensively.

Old school 1983
04-27-2013, 03:16 PM
A team can not be filled from top to bottom with the top talent in the league. I concede this team needs another hitter, but I'll agree to disagree that this team is fundamentally flawed offensively.

I don't think they need to be filled top to bottom with top talent. Maybe subtract a couple pieces and add solid veteran bats that can give good consistent at bats and create a threat behind votto so Phillips can go back to the two spot to fill that void. If somehow these players could improve the D at third or get choo out of center and to a corner than even better. Maybe I sounded too gloom an doom. The reds aren't too far off. I think though to improve the offense the reds may have to part ways with a player or two that we as fans may not want to see go.