best current Reds lineup

[oldredsfan]

My first post, be kind.

What's the best current starting lineup we can field (not counting players on DL, hope no more get there!) ?

I'm not a baseball expert, just a Big Reds fan. My frame of reference goes back to the '70 team when I missed a week of school with a mysterious :) stomach ailment to watch World Series day baseball Reds vs. Orioles.

I've followed the current Reds more closely the past few years, and a good friend and I were trying to put together our best starting lineup with the current available players. I want 3 players at the top of the lineup that get on base (think Rose, Griffey, Morgan), then 3 that can knock them in (think Bench, Perez, Foster), then everyone else.

Granted, any team I put together with players from today is not going to measure up to that '75 team (just finished re-watching that series on DVD, wonderful!--I noted players sure were "smaller" back then!), but my lineup so far is:

1. Choo (wonderful addition! not convinced on centerfield yet)
2. Robinson over Paul (close stats OBP and AVG -- speed a difference?, I'm struggling with this spot)
3. Votto (good to see him start to come around)
4. Phillips
5. Frazier (wonderful addition!)
6. Bruce (pretty cold so far, we need him to warm up soon)
7. Mesoraco (now that Hanigan is on the DL)
8. Cozart
9. Latos (now that Cueto is on the DL)

Would welcome your input! Go Reds!

[Old school 1983]

Seems pretty solid.
Choo at one has been great. But he's playing way over the numbers on the back of his baseball card. In not sold on him in center as of yet.

The two hole is tricky. I'd go Paul versus righties and cozart versus lefties. This spot is hurting bc the two hole hitter is batting cleanup due to injury.

Votto. Enough said.

Phillips. While not a prototypical 4 guy he's our best bet right now. He is coming back down to earth after an elite level start. He is an above average hitter though.

Frazier..... I have to disagree on this one. I'm not sold on the guy yet. I'm actually more afraid of him at third than I am of choo in center. I think his bat is not what a lot of fans think it is either. He's streaky and I see him mostly produce against average to below average pitchers. He looks overmatched to me against anything that is over average stuff. He's not a bad player but I don't think he's as good as some fans believe. I'd go Bruce here and Frazier in the 6 slot

Mes. I like mes and think hell be solid. I almost still consider him a rookie in my mind because of his lack of playing time last year. If he heats up I'd swap him with Frazier or if he shows enough maybe try in the four hole.

Cozart. Looks good at 8 against righties or 2 versus lefties.


Overall I like your lineup. Until the reds get ludwick back or get someone to replace him or someone steps up its around the best we could field.

[redsfan4486]

Seems pretty solid.
Choo at one has been great. But he's playing way over the numbers on the back of his baseball card. In not sold on him in center as of yet.

The two hole is tricky. I'd go Paul versus righties and cozart versus lefties. This spot is hurting bc the two hole hitter is batting cleanup due to injury.

Votto. Enough said.

Phillips. While not a prototypical 4 guy he's our best bet right now. He is coming back down to earth after an elite level start. He is an above average hitter though.

Frazier..... I have to disagree on this one. I'm not sold on the guy yet. I'm actually more afraid of him at third than I am of choo in center. I think his bat is not what a lot of fans think it is either. He's streaky and I see him mostly produce against average to below average pitchers. He looks overmatched to me against anything that is over average stuff. He's not a bad player but I don't think he's as good as some fans believe. I'd go Bruce here and Frazier in the 6 slot

Mes. I like mes and think hell be solid. I almost still consider him a rookie in my mind because of his lack of playing time last year. If he heats up I'd swap him with Frazier or if he shows enough maybe try in the four hole.

Cozart. Looks good at 8 against righties or 2 versus lefties.


Overall I like your lineup. Until the reds get ludwick back or get someone to replace him or someone steps up its around the best we could field.

I think u nailed it. I would just ride the hot hand between paul and cozart in the two hole. I think with votto heating up u might see cozart stat to pick things up with all the fast balls he will see. I gave thought of votto in the 2 hole but that leaves no real 4 hitter.

[oldredsfan]

Thanks for your reply old school, some very good points and thoughtful analysis.
Given Paul's .379 obp vs. Cozart's .230 through 22 games, not sure the rightly/lefty splits matter ( I don't know what those stats are at present). I want someone getting on base in that #2 slot and would not have left Heisey there for so long.
I definitely agree with you on moving the hot players around, Mesoraco definitely has a lot potential.
Frazier had the game-winning tater today, a long solo blast. He has 6 HR vs. Bruce's 1. But no problem swapping them once Bruce heats up. Hope we can agree he's better overall than Rolen...
thanks again, lets see how we fare against the Nats....

[Old school 1983]

You're welcome. I'm not down on Frazier completely. I'd just like him to show more on defense and give a more consistent performance and not so up and down. One Bruce in the lineup is enough for me and given the quality of his defense I'd go with Bruce. When it comes to Frazier versus rolen, you'd definitely have to give the defensive nod to rolen last year. He was a hall of fame caliber defender. As far as offense goes rolens back and shoulder were garbage and Frazier when he was on gave more offensively. So far I love what mes is doing as far as getting on base and it looks like he's not pulling off the ball and dipping his back shoulder as much in his at bats this year. Hopefully Walt can add another solid hitting piece or ludwick can come back strong and this offense can find some consistency.

[texasdave]

I know, I know. Chris Heisey sux.

Here are a couple of numbers to consider though:

1) Chris Heisey's line drive average is 24%. League average is 22%
2) Chris Heisey's BABIP is .220. League average is .293.
3) On line drives Chris Heisey's line slash line is: .385/1.000/1.385. League average is .682/.982/1.664.
4) Chris Heisey is probably the best defensive left fielder the Reds have.

Yes, Heisey is off to a slow start. But he hasn't gotten much luck to date. These things even out over the long haul.

Thanks,

Chris Heisey's Brother.

[Old school 1983]

I know, I know. Chris Heisey sux.

Here are a couple of numbers to consider though:

1) Chris Heisey's line drive average is 24%. League average is 22%
2) Chris Heisey's BABIP is .220. League average is .293.
3) On line drives Chris Heisey's line slash line is: .385/1.000/1.385. League average is .682/.982/1.664.
4) Chris Heisey is probably the best defensive left fielder the Reds have.

Yes, Heisey is off to a slow start. But he hasn't gotten much luck to date. These things even out over the long haul.

Thanks,

Chris Heisey's Brother.

I like heisey. Unlike some I believe he needs to stay on this team. His D hustle and speed are awesome. And yes he's hit into bad luck. But in the two hole right now. He's popping up a lot and isn't working the count very well. I think he'll come around more towards his career numbers but right now lets not put him in the two spot. Wait til he heats up.

[UCBrownsfan]

I know, I know. Chris Heisey sux.

Here are a couple of numbers to consider though:

1) Chris Heisey's line drive average is 24%. League average is 22%
2) Chris Heisey's BABIP is .220. League average is .293.
3) On line drives Chris Heisey's line slash line is: .385/1.000/1.385. League average is .682/.982/1.664.
4) Chris Heisey is probably the best defensive left fielder the Reds have.

Yes, Heisey is off to a slow start. But he hasn't gotten much luck to date. These things even out over the long haul.

Thanks,

Chris Heisey's Brother.

I just don't think he sees the ball well, see him like a Stubbs lite.

He's only gotten to 3 Balls in a count 8 times this season, and only walked twice.

[boiseheidleberg]

Best part is moving Mes up. I really like his at bats and now is the time (with Luddy out) to find out if he can be more of a middle of the order guy.

[Old school 1983]

Best part is moving Mes up. I really like his at bats and now is the time (with Luddy out) to find out if he can be more of a middle of the order guy.

Agreed! Part of me says maybe try him in the two hole too. He gets on base fairly well. Has pop. Is more of a line drive/fly ball hitter so he'd stay out of the DP and he's faster than hanigan so the base clogger excuse could be gone

[bigredmechanism]

Choo
Phillips
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Mes
Heisey
Cozart
Leake

[Old school 1983]

My overall take on the reds lineup is this: way too feast or famine. They may average 5 runs a game but that's a very deceiving stat. They'll light up a so so pitcher for 10 or 15 then go 3 or 4 games where they struggle to score 1 or 2. They really only have what I want to call 2.5 hitters that will work a count and give a good tough at bat and not continually swing for the fences. Those guys are choo votto and Phillips when he is on. I put Bruce and Frazier in the power feast or famine group. They catch fire or are cold. Bruce is showing signs of plate discipline this year. Cozart seems like a dead pull hitter prone to cold streaks. The book on Mez is still out for me but he is doing a good job of getting on thus far. Heisey really us just a replacement bit he needs more discipline at the dish. But the swing from the heels hot and cold nature of most of the reds lineup leads to our scoring situation. When on or versus so so pitching its like a slow pitch softball game. When off or versus tougher pitching the bats aside from choo votto and Phillips at times look undisciplined and unable to work a tough at bat. I think the best way to improve the reds lineup and make it more consistent will be to bring in more disciplined bats that work pitchers and string solid hits together rather than relying on home runs or streaky hot hitters. I think in order to do that Walt may have to pull the trigger on trades that may not be too popular in reds country at the time but on the whole will make the team better much like the joe Morgan trade in the 70s

[KC2135]

My first post, be kind.

What's the best current starting lineup we can field (not counting players on DL, hope no more get there!) ?

I'm not a baseball expert, just a Big Reds fan. My frame of reference goes back to the '70 team when I missed a week of school with a mysterious :) stomach ailment to watch World Series day baseball Reds vs. Orioles.

I've followed the current Reds more closely the past few years, and a good friend and I were trying to put together our best starting lineup with the current available players. I want 3 players at the top of the lineup that get on base (think Rose, Griffey, Morgan), then 3 that can knock them in (think Bench, Perez, Foster), then everyone else.



Granted, any team I put together with players from today is not going to measure up to that '75 team (just finished re-watching that series on DVD, wonderful!--I noted players sure were "smaller" back then!), but my lineup so far is:

1. Choo (wonderful addition! not convinced on centerfield yet)
2. Robinson over Paul (close stats OBP and AVG -- speed a difference?, I'm struggling with this spot)
3. Votto (good to see him start to come around)
4. Phillips
5. Frazier (wonderful addition!)
6. Bruce (pretty cold so far, we need him to warm up soon)
7. Mesoraco (now that Hanigan is on the DL)
8. Cozart
9. Latos (now that Cueto is on the DL)

Would welcome your input! Go Reds!

this is the lineup i would go with

[oldredsfan]

Thanks to all who have replied to this thread for the thoughtful and detailed analysis. It's been educational/informative and I've changed my thinking about a few lineup spots because of your opinions.

As far as Frazier vs. Rolen, absolutely agree with you on the defensive side Rolen was superior. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, injuries played a part in Rolen's offensive struggles. But it's a business and the point is to win games. The defense in the San Fran playoffs last year...oy! Still haven't forgotten it, guess I'll need to get a bit older before I can. I just want someone there now at third who is an asset, at least produces more runs than he lets in. ie. let's not have a Sammy Sosa type who might knock in 2, but let in 3.

Mesoraco in the 2 spot...why not, give him a shot! We may be pleasantly surprised. I normally don't think of catchers with a lot of speed, but if he gets on base a lot, then so what.

The poster who made the point about taking a few pitches and getting deep into the count..yes! I don't care if it's a walk or a single, just get on base. I think I've watched "Moneyball" a few too many times...

Have a good weekend all. Go Reds, beat the Nats!

[dfs]

My first post, be kind.

What's the best current starting lineup we can field (not counting players on DL, hope no more get there!) ?

I'm not a baseball expert, just a Big Reds fan. My frame of reference goes back to the '70 team when I missed a week of school with a mysterious :) stomach ailment to watch World Series day baseball Reds vs. Orioles.

To this day I can't say their third baseman's name without inserting a certain word that rhymes with trucking in between his first and last name.

Don't ask me about Gene Tenace.

Post more.

I would put Paul in there in front of Robinson, but that's me.
I would also prefer Latos over Cueto even when Cueto comes back.

[RedTeamGo!]

Well, I will tell you this much: the best Reds lineup does not include Cesar Freaking Izturis batting 2nd. Good god.

[cincyredway]

Not surprised dusty put him in the 2hole. That's dusty for ya shortstops bat 2nd.
1. Choo
2. Phillips
3. Votto
4. Frazier
5. Bruce
6. Paul
7. Izturis
8. Miller
9. Bailey

That's probably how I would put the lineup , with these players in there.

[Old school 1983]

Not surprised dusty put him in the 2hole. That's dusty for ya shortstops bat 2nd.
1. Choo
2. Phillips
3. Votto
4. Frazier
5. Bruce
6. Paul
7. Izturis
8. Miller
9. Bailey

That's probably how I would put the lineup , with these players in there.

Please tell me that's a joke right? Izturis? Cozarts glove kills his more than the bat would make up. Miller can't hit a slow pitch softball and Mez has looked good at the dish. And Frazier in 4 then Bruce in 5. Prepare to strand some serious runners while striking out against anything that is above average pitching.

[Old school 1983]

I just now realized you were using the players dusty is tonight. My bad. But really miller? Mez was one of the few guys who had a clue at the plate last night. Drew two walks.

[cincyredway]

I didn't mean izturis and miller all the time, that is the starting lineup tonight, I meant that is the way I would have the order with izturis and miler starting tonight.

[cincyredway]

And I am a huge mes fan, I think he should b starting catcher even when hanny returns.

[Thisyear]

I know, I know. Chris Heisey sux.

Here are a couple of numbers to consider though:

1) Chris Heisey's line drive average is 24%. League average is 22%
2) Chris Heisey's BABIP is .220. League average is .293.
3) On line drives Chris Heisey's line slash line is: .385/1.000/1.385. League average is .682/.982/1.664.
4) Chris Heisey is probably the best defensive left fielder the Reds have.

Yes, Heisey is off to a slow start. But he hasn't gotten much luck to date. These things even out over the long haul.

Thanks,

Chris Heisey's Brother.

I agree I would love for Chris Heisey to get an actual look in the two hole. I am not talking about a platoon situation but a actual shot where he plays 5 times a week for a month. Given consistent playing time I venture to say his numbers would be even better.

[Old school 1983]

I didn't mean izturis and miller all the time, that is the starting lineup tonight, I meant that is the way I would have the order with izturis and miler starting tonight.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that until I looked at the actual lineup and saw that's who dusty is running out there. I don't mind izturus for a game. Maybe cozarts hand is still hurting. But miller (i love the guy) couldn't hit water if he fell off the titanic.

[Old school 1983]

I agree I would love for Chris Heisey to get an actual look in the two hole. I am not talking about a platoon situation but a actual shot where he plays 5 times a week for a month. Given consistent playing time I venture to say his numbers would be even better.

Heisey is quite possibly the best defensive CENTER fielder the reds have too. If he must play play him there and at least strengthen the D

[Old school 1983]

And I am a huge mes fan, I think he should b starting catcher even when hanny returns.

Me too! Totally agree.

[cincyredway]

That is one heck of a stache miller has though.

[Old school 1983]

That is one heck of a stache miller has though.

It's be great to see it in the reds dugout more often.....as a coach or manager.

[Red Swagger]

Reds line up going forward should be:

Choo
Mesoraco
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Frazier
X Paul
Cozart

Cozart's K's and DP's are not working in the 2 hole, dead pull hitter, no discipline.
The Reds have def some weaknesses on offense. They traded Gregorius way to soon, IMHO

[texasdave]

I hope you mean Frank Robinson. Because Derrick Robinson is not a major league ballplayer.

[Thisyear]

Reds line up going forward should be:

Choo
Mesoraco
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Frazier
X Paul
Cozart

Cozart's K's and DP's are not working in the 2 hole, dead pull hitter, no discipline.
The Reds have def some weaknesses on offense. They traded Gregorius way to soon, IMHO

The Reds got quite possibly their second best hitter in the deal for Gregorious and Stubbs. All Gregorious does is play spectacular defense. He would not help the offense out at all.

[Old school 1983]

Reds line up going forward should be:

Choo
Mesoraco
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Frazier
X Paul
Cozart

Cozart's K's and DP's are not working in the 2 hole, dead pull hitter, no discipline.
The Reds have def some weaknesses on offense. They traded Gregorius way to soon, IMHO

I like this lineup. Mes is giving good at bats even when he gets out. He has been on base in every game he's played as well. I like your choice of Phillips over Frazier in the cleanup spot because he consistently gives a better at bat than Frazier and IMO does a better job of handling good pitching. Paul and heisey should both be backups but Paul is giving way better at bats at this point. Nice line up!

[cincyredway]

Is something wrong with mesoraco, miller is catching again today, I understand. Miller catching a day a week to give mes a break, but this is two out of three days , am I missing something here.

[Old school 1983]

Is something wrong with mesoraco, miller is catching again today, I understand. Miller catching a day a week to give mes a break, but this is two out of three days , am I missing something here.

I think baker straight up just doesn't like Mez. I understand cingrani was caught by miller in AAA but miller has no future in this team as a player and Mez needs to learn the pitchers. Miller can't hit either, which makes this make even less sense given the teams current offensive struggles. It's like putting two pitchers in an already struggling ineup. Even when mes is getting out for the most part he's working the pitcher or hits it hard. This is ridiculous.

[DavidMemphis]

Great thread, oldredsfan! While all posts here make great points, I personally like giving Robinson a chance. Yes, he's been in the minors for years, and only posts a .267 avg there, his speed is something to be reckoned with. This guy is FAST fast. Not to mention, he was named to the Minor League Rawlings Gold Glove award team (which obviously is given to the best defensive players in the minors).

Choo at first to lead off the game, if we're playing a top notch pitcher and feel the need to play small ball and scrape out a run . . . Robinson will beat out that bunt for a single more than a handful of times, putting two on for Votto. And if he doesn't, Votto has Choo on 2nd w/a base open, and BP smiling in the on deck circle (obviously this is considering our injuries). Good luck w/that National League.

[Old school 1983]

Great thread, oldredsfan! While all posts here make great points, I personally like giving Robinson a chance. Yes, he's been in the minors for years, and only posts a .267 avg there, his speed is something to be reckoned with. This guy is FAST fast. Not to mention, he was named to the Minor League Rawlings Gold Glove award team (which obviously is given to the best defensive players in the minors).

Choo at first to lead off the game, if we're playing a top notch pitcher and feel the need to play small ball and scrape out a run . . . Robinson will beat out that bunt for a single more than a handful of times, putting two on for Votto. And if he doesn't, Votto has Choo on 2nd w/a base open, and BP smiling in the on deck circle (obviously this is considering our injuries). Good luck w/that National League.

Some good points. I think the reds lineup has been one dimensional for awhile. It's mostly power based with no productive speed in recent memory. Idk if Robinson is the man for the job (at this point he'd be worth a shot though) but an inject of speed and not swinging for the fences aside from choo and votto at times would be welcome.

[texasdave]

Some good points. I think the reds lineup has been one dimensional for awhile. It's mostly power based with no productive speed in recent memory. Idk if Robinson is the man for the job (at this point he'd be worth a shot though) but an inject of speed and not swinging for the fences aside from choo and votto at times would be welcome.

Drew Stubbs.

[Old school 1983]

Drew Stubbs.

Key word being productive. When he was on base he could do some damage but he was on so inconsistently it really didnt matter.

[texasdave]

Key word being productive. When he was on base he could do some damage but he was on so inconsistently it really didnt matter.

His first season he was productive.

[coachpipe]

I know, I know. Chris Heisey sux.

Here are a couple of numbers to consider though:

1) Chris Heisey's line drive average is 24%. League average is 22%
2) Chris Heisey's BABIP is .220. League average is .293.
3) On line drives Chris Heisey's line slash line is: .385/1.000/1.385. League average is .682/.982/1.664.
4) Chris Heisey is probably the best defensive left fielder the Reds have.

Yes, Heisey is off to a slow start. But he hasn't gotten much luck to date. These things even out over the long haul.

Thanks,

Chris Heisey's Brother.

And on days when its raining he hits .351

[texasdave]

And on days when its raining he hits .351

What exactly was the point of your post?

[coachpipe]

What exactly was the point of your post?

same as yours..stop spending so much time looking at stats..and just watch him play

[Old school 1983]

His first season he was productive.

He put up nice numbers in 2010 out of the 7 hole. He still struck out 168 times. Put the ball in play. Put pressure on the defense. Not to take anything away from that season, but he could have been more productive to the team if he realized he was a fast guy with some pop instead of a power hitter and worked on better contact and getting on base. Overall in his years with the reds, Just too many Ks and a hole in the lineup. So in the grand scheme he was unproductive.

[texasdave]

same as yours..stop spending so much time looking at stats..and just watch him play

I have watched him play. For three plus years.

[texasdave]

He put up nice numbers in 2010 out of the 7 hole. He still struck out 168 times. Put the ball in play. Put pressure on the defense. Not to take anything away from that season, but he could have been more productive to the team if he realized he was a fast guy with some pop instead of a power hitter and worked on better contact and getting on base. Overall in his years with the reds, Just too many Ks and a hole in the lineup. So in the grand scheme he was unproductive.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Robinson to be productive. Unless you think you look good in blue.

[Old school 1983]

same as yours..stop spending so much time looking at stats..and just watch him play

By watching him play I see he has value for this team when used in the correct role. He's easily in the top two in speed. Has the best D with the exception of Bruce's arm in the outfield. Is a good bunter. He's absolutely smoked some balls that have been caught too. It looks like he's dipping his back shoulder more than last year hence the popups. The guy isn't horrible and should be on the team. He's just not an everyday starter. Use him to pinch hit where he can turn on a fastball and pick spot starts against pitchers he can exploit and hell be a good piece like in years past.

[Old school 1983]

Don't hold your breath waiting for Robinson to be productive. Unless you think you look good in blue.

I'm not expecting Robinson to be productive. He's a career minor leaguer for a reason. I think his speed could provide a spark that could help jump start the offense for a few games. I really don't seem him pulling a Stubbs and swinging for the fences. Hell stay within his skillset and lay down a few bunts slap a single and use his speed to pressure the defense. I know cozart and heisey aren't as bad as they are playing right now, but right now they aren't getting it done in the two spot. Nothing wrong with trying to get a quick spark from a bench player until they get back on track.

[Old school 1983]

Don't hold your breath waiting for Robinson to be productive. Unless you think you look good in blue.

I think our definition of productive is different too. You're thinking in terms if putting up huge numbers. I'm thinking of in terms of what can this player do to make the team more productive as a whole. I'd be delusional to think Robinson had the talent of Stubbs or could put up a Stubbs 2010 season. But I think I'd be correct in saying he could help this team be productive in the two spot right now. There is a Grand Canyon sized hole between choo and votto. No one is consistently hitting between them or even getting them over. The spot in the lineup is causing the lineup to be less productive. Stick Robinson there. He won't be swinging for the fences like heisey or trying to yank e wry thing like cozart. Hell be trying to get choo over and using his speed to get on or pressure the defense. He'd build a bridge between choo and votto in the lineup that's now vacant. He could get choo over for votto to drive in, if not get on with his speed too. And if he gets out and they walk votto, it'll give Phillips more RBI chances. By doing those things he could make this offense more productive than it currently is at least for the short term. Do I think he'll be a long term fixture or ever put up huge numbers? Probably not. Could I see him being a productive addition to the lineup in the short term. Yes.

[oldredsfan]

Nice analysis, David. Why not give Robinson a week to 10 days in the 2-spot?

Old school 1983 -- you must know a little something about the game to be able to spot swing tendencies! I don't profess to know anything that detailed about hitting, but the way some of our guys are doing, I hope they read this forum and it helps. If so, they should track you down for some type of comp. :-)

On the pitching side, nice to see Marshall back, hope it's for a while and his shoulder holds. I know for years I've felt our overall lack of success was due to a lack of pitching, both starting and relieving (fill in the name of most MLB teams there). We'll we've got some decent pitchers now especially with the young kid (23) Cingrani in there doing fine. If he keeps that up, he'll be pushing Latos for my starting lineup spot. I got a chance to watch him a bit on MLB yesterday for the first time. Nice. The announcers kept saying how effortless he is, that the ball just pops.

We can't have both pitching and hitting at once, I guess, but it sure would be nice to have some of that hitting from the "old" days of mid-1970s when we just beat guys senseless. My wife being a Cubs fan (poor misguided soul, she did not like the Marshall trade), I do fondly recall a game from that era when we're down 10-0 early at Wrigley and came back and beat them. They weren't quitters, but our current team I think gives a very good effort as well.

Best to our guys vs. the Cards tonight.

[Old school 1983]

Nice analysis, David. Why not give Robinson a week to 10 days in the 2-spot?

Old school 1983 -- you must know a little something about the game to be able to spot swing tendencies! I don't profess to know anything that detailed about hitting, but the way some of our guys are doing, I hope they read this forum and it helps. If so, they should track you down for some type of comp. :-)

On the pitching side, nice to see Marshall back, hope it's for a while and his shoulder holds. I know for years I've felt our overall lack of success was due to a lack of pitching, both starting and relieving (fill in the name of most MLB teams there). We'll we've got some decent pitchers now especially with the young kid (23) Cingrani in there doing fine. If he keeps that up, he'll be pushing Latos for my starting lineup spot. I got a chance to watch him a bit on MLB yesterday for the first time. Nice. The announcers kept saying how effortless he is, that the ball just pops.

We can't have both pitching and hitting at once, I guess, but it sure would be nice to have some of that hitting from the "old" days of mid-1970s when we just beat guys senseless. My wife being a Cubs fan (poor misguided soul, she did not like the Marshall trade), I do fondly recall a game from that era when we're down 10-0 early at Wrigley and came back and beat them. They weren't quitters, but our current team I think gives a very good effort as well.

Best to our guys vs. the Cards tonight.

Unless that's sarcasm I believe you may have Dave and I confused on the Robinson analysis. Haha

[oldredsfan]

Nope, having read several posts, I just got him confused with someone else who liked Robinson in the 2-spot and guess I was replying to the wrong post. It happens when you get to be an old geezer...

[KC2135]

My first post, be kind.

What's the best current starting lineup we can field (not counting players on DL, hope no more get there!) ?

I'm not a baseball expert, just a Big Reds fan. My frame of reference goes back to the '70 team when I missed a week of school with a mysterious :) stomach ailment to watch World Series day baseball Reds vs. Orioles.

I've followed the current Reds more closely the past few years, and a good friend and I were trying to put together our best starting lineup with the current available players. I want 3 players at the top of the lineup that get on base (think Rose, Griffey, Morgan), then 3 that can knock them in (think Bench, Perez, Foster), then everyone else.

Granted, any team I put together with players from today is not going to measure up to that '75 team (just finished re-watching that series on DVD, wonderful!--I noted players sure were "smaller" back then!), but my lineup so far is:

1. Choo (wonderful addition! not convinced on centerfield yet)
2. Robinson over Paul (close stats OBP and AVG -- speed a difference?, I'm struggling with this spot)
3. Votto (good to see him start to come around)
4. Phillips
5. Frazier (wonderful addition!)
6. Bruce (pretty cold so far, we need him to warm up soon)
7. Mesoraco (now that Hanigan is on the DL)
8. Cozart
9. Latos (now that Cueto is on the DL)

Would welcome your input! Go Reds!

im with you exactly

[Old school 1983]

Nope, having read several posts, I just got him confused with someone else who liked Robinson in the 2-spot and guess I was replying to the wrong post. It happens when you get to be an old geezer...

No worries. Happens to me too. You created one of the best threads going here. Nothing wrong with that

[oldredsfan]

Ok, after re-reading this thread, I meant a different David, DavidMemphis, regarding his analysis. But don't get me wrong old school 1983, I enjoy the thoughtful remarks being put forth by nearly everyone in this forum, yours in particular. Well done.

I'm still learning how to use/quote/reply in this thread.

Regarding Cingrani, how about we keep him when Cueto comes back and use him as another LHP option out of the pen, or in these all too frequent extra-inning games when we need several innings out of someone? Instead send down one of our three 4-6+ ERA guys.

[oldredsfan]

No worries. Happens to me too. You created one of the best threads going here. Nothing wrong with that

Thanks for the kind words and the thoughtful analysis. Let's hope our guys can beat the Cards again, tonight.

Now that the season is roughly 1/6 done, the central div. is looking like a dogfight again this year, esp. given our lengthening DL list. I'm not against a trade, but I sure don't like giving up pitching. I guess I'm a hoarder in that regard, we went so many years without much of it, it's nice to have it for a change.

Lutz up from AA for Heisey(now on DL with hamstring)? I hope he does well, but is that the best we've got down in the minors (batted .211 with five home runs and 14 RBIs in 21 games for Pensacola) ?

Would welcome input on what we can do to improve our starting lineup with a trade.

Choo
Robinson (10-day trial, please!)
Phillips
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Mesoraco
Cozart
Latos

[Old school 1983]

Thanks for the kind words and the thoughtful analysis. Let's hope our guys can beat the Cards again, tonight.

Now that the season is roughly 1/6 done, the central div. is looking like a dogfight again this year, esp. given our lengthening DL list. I'm not against a trade, but I sure don't like giving up pitching. I guess I'm a hoarder in that regard, we went so many years without much of it, it's nice to have it for a change.

Lutz up from AA for Heisey(now on DL with hamstring)? I hope he does well, but is that the best we've got down in the minors (batted .211 with five home runs and 14 RBIs in 21 games for Pensacola) ?

Would welcome input on what we can do to improve our starting lineup with a trade.

Choo
Robinson (10-day trial, please!)
Phillips
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Mesoraco
Cozart
Latos

I'd like to see Robinson get a trial run. As far as trade candidates my two dream candidates, either one of which could help this club would be chase Headley or dexter fowler. But lesser, well maybe not lesser but older guys who'd be more rental types would be dejesus of the cubs or Michael young of the phillies. I really think if we make a move for a guy it should improve the D at center or third or both. I consider those our defensive soft spots. If we are talking about left fielders willing ham would be cool. I'd like to see Rios from the white sox. Good pop good obp and lower Ks for a hitter with his pop. I'd love to see Stanton a red but I think we'd have to seriously overpay in prospects then a few years later be looking at a situation where we couldn't afford him.

I love to hoard pitching too, but as far as getting a guy to make an impact I think we'd have to give up pitching on some level. As far as players on our current roster go, I could see Frazier as a smart trade chip. Out of the players on the roster I think he'd have the most value in a trade, while his loss would have the lowest overall impact on the reds perfoance, especially if the guy you gained was a legit right handed clean up hitter or two hole hitter. Plus fraziers D would be easily replaceable. I see Frazier as a streaky Bruce like bat. I think a good balanced lineup can only really sustain one of those, and Bruce plays superior defense and is younger. I'm not saying give Frazier away or trade him for a rental. He'd have to be a part of a move that'd land one of my dream trade situations. Headley, fowler or Stanton.

[oldredsfan]

I'd like to see Robinson get a trial run. As far as trade candidates my two dream candidates, either one of which could help this club would be chase Headley or dexter fowler. But lesser, well maybe not lesser but older guys who'd be more rental types would be dejesus of the cubs or Michael young of the phillies. I really think if we make a move for a guy it should improve the D at center or third or both. I consider those our defensive soft spots. If we are talking about left fielders willing ham would be cool. I'd like to see Rios from the white sox. Good pop good obp and lower Ks for a hitter with his pop. I'd love to see Stanton a red but I think we'd have to seriously overpay in prospects then a few years later be looking at a situation where we couldn't afford him.

I love to hoard pitching too, but as far as getting a guy to make an impact I think we'd have to give up pitching on some level. As far as players on our current roster go, I could see Frazier as a smart trade chip. Out of the players on the roster I think he'd have the most value in a trade, while his loss would have the lowest overall impact on the reds perfoance, especially if the guy you gained was a legit right handed clean up hitter or two hole hitter. Plus fraziers D would be easily replaceable. I see Frazier as a streaky Bruce like bat. I think a good balanced lineup can only really sustain one of those, and Bruce plays superior defense and is younger. I'm not saying give Frazier away or trade him for a rental. He'd have to be a part of a move that'd land one of my dream trade situations. Headley, fowler or Stanton.
3B Chase Headley, 9th in NL in 2012 with .376 OBP. 31 HR! Nice.
CF Dexter Fowler, .300 avg, .389 OBP in 2012. Nice again.

I'll take your word for it the defense would improve with either of those. Our current OF seems a bit uncertain when it comes to leadership, hopefully that improves. CF needs to be in charge. As I recall, Geronimo didn't have a problem calling off Griffey or Foster.

RF Alex Rios, seems decent
CF David DeJesus .278/.352 obp
3B Michael Young .341/.412 nice season so far, Phillies might want an arm and a leg for that one, pun intended. Maybe two arms and a leg...
OF Josh Willingham, Twins, presume you mean this one. Hit a fair # of HR last year, SO ratio is about 3:1, nearly same as Jay Bruce. Bruce's D would be tough to part with.

Will take your word on Stanton.
Seems like you've hit the nail right on the head here, again. Lots of excellent points.

[Old school 1983]

I think it'd take a bit to get young if the phillies go south but nothing crazy. He's in his mid thirties and I'm pretty sure in the last year of his contract. Willingham could be nice but I see him creating an outfield logjam with ludwick coming back and not improving the D much with choo in center. I think Headley would be an incredible pickup. I'd almost consider trading cueto for either him or fowler if cingrani continues to impress. Headley would help on so many levels.

1. Legit cleanup hitter. Protection for votto
2. Moves Phillips back to 2
3. Better D at third
4. Doesn't create outfield logjam and choo could move to left if Bham picks it up
5. Allows Frazier to be a supersub like last year where his average-ish D isn't in the lineup everyday, but his bat can still be an impact maybe in a platoon with ludwick who would be recovering or lutz or Bham if they prove ready.
6. Makes Frazier a possible trade chip combined with prospects for a pitcher to replace cueto if he's used in a trade.

[Old school 1983]

I'd really like to see Robinson get a real chance to bat second, but it seems that his injury and dustys preference to play musical outfielders in left wont make that happen. That being the case maybe lutz should get a try. His speed is better than i anticipated. He has a short quick swing for a man of his size, and he has looked ok thus far at the plate. I like Paul but I think he's best used as a lunch hitter who can give a tough quality at bat in a clutch spot late in the game.