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Vottomatic
04-25-2013, 10:36 AM
Kid is 24? Is that right?

Seems like he's maxed out his potential.

I had high hopes for him at one time. Not to mention he's blocked by Votto at 1B.

Wouldn't surprise me to see him in a trade at some point.

Blitz Dorsey
04-25-2013, 11:13 AM
Question is how much value he has. Probably had a lot right after the 2011 season when he hit 31 bombs. But unless he turns things around in a hurry, he'll have back-to-back horrible years at AAA. Also, it's not hard to find first basemen that can hit.

Can't imagine he would have much value in a trade. Hopefully he turns things around ASAFP.

Vottomatic
04-25-2013, 11:26 AM
Yeah. I really liked the kid's potential up until lately, mostly because he's now 24. He looked like he would keep progressing with the possibility of having some decent trade value - first baseman with power. Again, he seems to have hit a ceiling or wall, and possibly is regressing. It's early, I know. But 2 mediocre seasons of AAA ball won't bode well for his future, like you said.

Steve4192
04-25-2013, 11:53 AM
I find it strange that people are dismissing Soto based on his age, given that many of the same people swoon over Donald Lutz, who happens to be three weeks older and a level lower than Soto.

I agree with the folks who are concerned about the drop in his production in 2012, but I can't get too worked up about his 2013 performance just yet. He's only played 12 games. A rough couple of weeks is nothing to worry about.

I also agree with the opinion that he doesn't have much trade value right now. The Reds are better off holding onto him and hoping he finds his 2011 stroke. If he is putting up a 850-900 OPS around the All-Star break, then they might be able to get something useful out of him. If not, they lose next to nothing, because that is what they would get in a trade for him right now.

bellhead
04-25-2013, 04:31 PM
I find it strange that people are dismissing Soto based on his age, given that many of the same people swoon over Donald Lutz, who happens to be three weeks older and a level lower than Soto.

I agree with the folks who are concerned about the drop in his production in 2012, but I can't get too worked up about his 2013 performance just yet. He's only played 12 games. A rough couple of weeks is nothing to worry about.

I also agree with the opinion that he doesn't have much trade value right now. The Reds are better off holding onto him and hoping he finds his 2011 stroke. If he is putting up a 850-900 OPS around the All-Star break, then they might be able to get something useful out of him. If not, they lose next to nothing, because that is what they would get in a trade for him right now.

Agree 100%...

Old school 1983
04-25-2013, 04:35 PM
I find it strange that people are dismissing Soto based on his age, given that many of the same people swoon over Donald Lutz, who happens to be three weeks older and a level lower than Soto.

I agree with the folks who are concerned about the drop in his production in 2012, but I can't get too worked up about his 2013 performance just yet. He's only played 12 games. A rough couple of weeks is nothing to worry about.

I also agree with the opinion that he doesn't have much trade value right now. The Reds are better off holding onto him and hoping he finds his 2011 stroke. If he is putting up a 850-900 OPS around the All-Star break, then they might be able to get something useful out of him. If not, they lose next to nothing, because that is what they would get in a trade for him right now.

I don't think that it's so much age as the fact that sotos skills have appeared to have plateaued, if are not declining, whereas lutz has been improving and still, as viewed by many, has room for more improvement.

RedlegJake
04-25-2013, 07:57 PM
lutz started later is from Europe with a limitrd PT as amateur. His age/level cānnot fairly be compared to Soto or other guys the same age. Soto, otoh, imo has simply reached a level where the overall pitching has caught up with his lack of selectivity and aggresiveness. Evidence of this possibility was in his peripheral stats all along.

Vottomatic
04-26-2013, 08:07 AM
For me Lutz got a later start on his development and is still showing improvement.

Soto reached triple A, like 2 years ago (???), and has basically kind of regressed.

bellhead
04-26-2013, 08:12 AM
What was his injury this year? Kid has had a lot of injury problems.

Steve4192
04-26-2013, 03:23 PM
For me Lutz got a later start on his development and is still showing improvement.

Soto reached triple A, like 2 years ago (???), and has basically kind of regressed.

Soto has had one bad year at AAA. He demolished AA in 2011 and flopped at AAA last season. Meanwhile, Lutz has yet to hit above single-A. His AA stats look a whole lot like Soto's AAA stats. I'm not seeing much improvement from either guy, but at least Soto has proven he can hit above the single-A level.

Blitz Dorsey
04-26-2013, 06:50 PM
Who is "dismissing" Soto? A few of us are just concerned.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 07:36 PM
Soto has had one bad year at AAA. He demolished AA in 2011 and flopped at AAA last season. Meanwhile, Lutz has yet to hit above single-A. His AA stats look a whole lot like Soto's AAA stats. I'm not seeing much improvement from either guy, but at least Soto has proven he can hit above the single-A level.

In the reds organization lutz is tied for first in homers and is leading in RBI and slugging. His average leaves for more to be desired but soto doesn't appear in the top 5 of any of these areas. Stats are not similar.

dougdirt
04-26-2013, 08:33 PM
In the reds organization lutz is tied for first in homers and is leading in RBI and slugging. His average leaves for more to be desired but soto doesn't appear in the top 5 of any of these areas. Stats are not similar.

In the three weeks that are this season, no, they aren't. But since we are three weeks into this season, this season's stats don't really matter.

Steve4192
04-26-2013, 08:34 PM
In the reds organization lutz is tied for first in homers and is leading in RBI and slugging. His average leaves for more to be desired but soto doesn't appear in the top 5 of any of these areas. Stats are not similar.

Lutz is basically doing his best Rob Deer impression this season at AA, batting 208 with a 296 OBP and a bunch of homers. Take away a couple of those HR and his numbers are awful.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 08:41 PM
In the three weeks that are this season, no, they aren't. But since we are three weeks into this season, this season's stats don't really matter.

I agree. But don't make an argument when it's off base. That's more of my point. Call me crazy but I think lutzs numbers will be better after 3 months too.

dougdirt
04-26-2013, 08:44 PM
I agree. But don't make an argument when it's off base. That's more of my point. Call me crazy but I think lutzs numbers will be better after 3 months too.

Soto in AAA: .250/.315/.397
Lutz in AA: .231/.309/.434

The statement was pretty spot on that their numbers in AA/AAA look the same. The park in AA is very hitter friendly, while Louisville is slightly pitcher friendly.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 08:44 PM
Lutz is basically doing his best Rob Deer impression this season at AA, batting 208 with a 296 OBP and a bunch of homers. Take away a couple of those HR and his numbers are awful.

Take away a couple of sotos homers and he has negative 2. At least lutz has production that can be taken away in theory. I'm not saying either player is going to be a super star but I think lutz is a better prospect.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 08:50 PM
Soto in AAA: .250/.315/.397
Lutz in AA: .231/.309/.434

The statement was pretty spot on that their numbers in AA/AAA look the same. The park in AA is very hitter friendly, while Louisville is slightly pitcher friendly.

Lutz has 2 more homers and 1 more RBI than soto just in his away games.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 08:59 PM
All and all it's probably a waste of time to argue about guys who's only major contribution to the reds probably will be, hey they were a throw in for a trade for a major league piece. I mean I hope I'm wrong and I hope someone points this post back out to me if I am but unless there are drastic changes to the reds both guys are stuck behind votto.

dougdirt
04-26-2013, 09:00 PM
Lutz has 2 more homers and 1 more RBI than soto just in his away games.

This season. Lutz has played 20 games. Soto has played 13 games. This season does not matter enough yet to be talking about the stats.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 09:10 PM
This season. Lutz has played 20 games. Soto has played 13 games. This season does not matter enough yet to be talking about the stats.

I agree with you on that. I didn't bring up the satisical argument. I know that you're on top of the reds minors. What is your opinion on each player?

dougdirt
04-26-2013, 09:58 PM
I agree with you on that. I didn't bring up the satisical argument. I know that you're on top of the reds minors. What is your opinion on each player?

Coming into the season I had them ranked directly next to each other. Different players, but similar values.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 10:04 PM
Coming into the season I had them ranked directly next to each other. Different players, but similar values.

Cool.

Old school 1983
04-26-2013, 10:11 PM
I can see lutz getting a shot before soto. Dusty seems to like him. Either way either of them will probably be replaced by winker in a year if not less if he pans out.

corkedbat
04-26-2013, 11:46 PM
Lutz can play the OF. Soto? Not so much.

mth123
04-27-2013, 06:37 PM
Soto with his first HR of the year tonight.

HokieRed
04-27-2013, 09:45 PM
3 for 4 tonight, now at .273/.322/.704 OPS. Not great but trending in the right direction. Is there any possibility that he can play LF?

Kc61
04-28-2013, 08:12 PM
3 for 4 tonight, now at .273/.322/.704 OPS. Not great but trending in the right direction. Is there any possibility that he can play LF?

I would have brought him up anyway. Reds could use a power man pinch hitting from the right side.

HokieRed
04-28-2013, 08:27 PM
I would have brought him up anyway. Reds could use a power man pinch hitting from the right side.

Agree. And if needing a fifth outfielder is an issue, surely Frazier's flexibility should partially relieve that problem.

Kc61
04-29-2013, 11:48 PM
Maybe I'm just excited about Soto's performance today. But he had some very good reports early in his minor league career. At the time, he wasn't hitting for power but the talk was that his power would come.

I'm just wondering whether the Reds have a solid power hitting righty bat at AAA in Soto.

Don't know how it would work defensively, but if Soto keeps hitting for awhile, I'd like to see him up with the big club, particularly while Ludwick is out.

At minimum, he could be a righty bench bat, which the Reds don't really have.

Blitz Dorsey
04-30-2013, 12:21 AM
Hello! Now that's what I'm talking about.

Updated stats:

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=t416&t=p_pbp&pid=519304

RedlegJake
04-30-2013, 10:28 AM
I sure hope that line continues! Either he is simply hot for a moment or Nef has finally made the adjustments to catch up to his level. The 6 Ks in 38 abs and the minimally acceptable 3 bb are what impress me most. I know the kid can hit the strikes....its all whether he lays off the balls. Seems to be so far.

Vottomatic
04-30-2013, 11:26 AM
I just stopped by to take credit for Soto's recent offensive surge in batting average. ;)

It never fails. Just as soon as you question somebody, they turn it on. :D

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 12:26 PM
I just stopped by to take credit for Soto's recent offensive surge in batting average. ;)

It never fails. Just as soon as you question somebody, they turn it on. :D

Question Bruce now! Haha. I'd love to see soto pan out. He's a nice right handed bat. How good is he at third? Idk if he has the speed for the outfield.

RedlegJake
04-30-2013, 12:41 PM
Question Bruce now! Haha. I'd love to see soto pan out. He's a nice right handed bat. How good is he at third? Idk if he has the speed for the outfield.

He makes Frazier look better than Brooks Robinson OR Pie Traynor...so far he has a career sub. 900 fldg pct at third...

RedlegJake
04-30-2013, 12:43 PM
If he ends AAA season looking average at third? Then yeah, perceptions will sure change including mine

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 01:36 PM
He makes Frazier look better than Brooks Robinson OR Pie Traynor...so far he has a career sub. 900 fldg pct at third...

Ouch...and I'm not a huge fan of fraziers D at third.

Steve4192
04-30-2013, 02:09 PM
Soto has been abysmal at every position he has tried. He MIGHT play a passable 1B, but even that is in question.

Obviously, given who the Reds have at 1B, he doesn't have much of a future in Cincinnati. Hopefully, the Reds find a team that falls in love with his bat and needs a DH/1B type and are willing to give up a decent prospect to get him.

Vottomatic
04-30-2013, 04:03 PM
Ouch...and I'm not a huge fan of fraziers D at third.

I think Frazier has made incredible strides this season in comparison to last season.

That play last night where he had to barehand it and zip it to Votto was topnotch.

As for Soto, his only path to the majors with the Reds is in LF. If he can't play that, they should trade him when he's really tearing it up.

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 04:20 PM
I think Frazier has made incredible strides this season in comparison to last season.

That play last night where he had to barehand it and zip it to Votto was topnotch.

As for Soto, his only path to the majors with the Reds is in LF. If he can't play that, they should trade him when he's really tearing it up.

He has made strides and i hope he continues to improve but that play is one any major league third baseman should make most of the time.

I agree on trading soto unless we think he's going to be an offensive juggernaut. The reds play in a bandbox where defense is at a premium.

Blitz Dorsey
05-06-2013, 12:43 AM
Keep raising that trade value Neffy!

Tony Cloninger
05-06-2013, 10:13 AM
Ouch...and I'm not a huge fan of fraziers D at third.

Have you been watching him at 3B this year? He has made many good plays. Has shown great hands and good range. He is well above average this year. It has not even been an issue.

klw
05-06-2013, 12:26 PM
1 for his last 17 and he is back down to .265/.322/.398/.720. Ah the joys of early season small sample sizes.

Vottomatic
05-06-2013, 01:56 PM
Have you been watching him at 3B this year? He has made many good plays. Has shown great hands and good range. He is well above average this year. It has not even been an issue.

:thumbup: :beerme:

lollipopcurve
05-06-2013, 04:32 PM
I've watched some Louisville this year. Soto has a lot of power, but a longish swing. The hitter who looks the most professional to me is Felix Perez.

mth123
06-25-2013, 03:35 AM
It's time to call-up Neftali Soto IMO. The Reds play 6 games in AL parks and need a DH. The team needs some RH Pop. Votto needs rest and could DH while a Soto/Hannahan tandem shares 1B for a week. Soto is up to .291/.327/.453/.781 with 9 HR in 258 Abs. Against LHP he sits at .312/.361/.623/.985 with 6 HR in 77 ABs. Here is the missing lefty killer the team needs. He doesn't walk much, but he's got pop and has been playing some 3B as well to add a little positional value. Over his last 10 games .400/.415/.675/1.090 in 40 ABs.

Given his positions, he may not be the best use of a bench spot all season, but over the next 6 games with the DH involved, his current hot streak and his ability against LHP, he'd be really darned useful IMO.

Kc61
06-25-2013, 08:43 AM
It's time to call-up Neftali Soto IMO. The Reds play 6 games in AL parks and need a DH. The team needs some RH Pop. Votto needs rest and could DH while a Soto/Hannahan tandem shares 1B for a week. Soto is up to .291/.327/.453/.781 with 9 HR in 258 Abs. Against LHP he sits at .312/.361/.623/.985 with 6 HR in 77 ABs. Here is the missing lefty killer the team needs. He doesn't walk much, but he's got pop and has been playing some 3B as well to add a little positional value. Over his last 10 games .400/.415/.675/1.090 in 40 ABs.

Given his positions, he may not be the best use of a bench spot all season, but over the next 6 games with the DH involved, his current hot streak and his ability against LHP, he'd be really darned useful IMO.

Good idea, but only way it happens is if Reds use 11 pitchers in AL parks.

Reds will add Heisey so it seems doubtful they will also add Soto now. I would have added Soto over Lutz previously, but his limited defensive versatility hurt Soto in that situation.

Blitz Dorsey
06-25-2013, 09:04 AM
It's time to call-up Neftali Soto IMO. The Reds play 6 games in AL parks and need a DH. The team needs some RH Pop. Votto needs rest and could DH while a Soto/Hannahan tandem shares 1B for a week. Soto is up to .291/.327/.453/.781 with 9 HR in 258 Abs. Against LHP he sits at .312/.361/.623/.985 with 6 HR in 77 ABs. Here is the missing lefty killer the team needs. He doesn't walk much, but he's got pop and has been playing some 3B as well to add a little positional value. Over his last 10 games .400/.415/.675/1.090 in 40 ABs.

Given his positions, he may not be the best use of a bench spot all season, but over the next 6 games with the DH involved, his current hot streak and his ability against LHP, he'd be really darned useful IMO.

Cosign.

lollipopcurve
06-25-2013, 09:53 AM
Would love to see Soto get some more MLB at bats, but I think there's zero chance of that happening right now. Heisey will get the call and the ABs.

mth123
06-25-2013, 06:41 PM
Good idea, but only way it happens is if Reds use 11 pitchers in AL parks.

Reds will add Heisey so it seems doubtful they will also add Soto now. I would have added Soto over Lutz previously, but his limited defensive versatility hurt Soto in that situation.

11 pitchers in AL parks w/o the need to PH for the pitcher is pretty doable IMO. If they get into a long game or a starter gets blown-out and they use up the pen, they can always abandon the idea and go back to 12. The REds starters usually go deep in games.

Lutz and Partch down. Heisey and Soto up.

dougdirt
06-25-2013, 06:45 PM
11 pitchers in AL parks w/o the need to PH for the pitcher is pretty doable IMO. If they get into a long game or a starter gets blown-out and they use up the pen, they can always abandon the idea and go back to 12. The REds starters usually go deep in games.

Lutz and Partch down. Heisey and Soto up.

Especially with an off day on Thursday as well. But, it isn't going to happen.

mth123
06-25-2013, 09:04 PM
Especially with an off day on Thursday as well. But, it isn't going to happen.

I didn't even realize they had another off day on Thursday. So I guess it's only 5 games with a DH. Still would have done it.

REDREAD
09-27-2013, 10:22 AM
Bumping this to the top.
Is it just me, or does Soto seem totally lost at the plate at the ML level?
I guess he's young enough to keep in AAA a few more years, but unless he learns how to play great 3b (like Frazier/Hannahan level defense), I don't think he's going to make it. Even with good defense, not sure he'll be able to hit well enough to be a backup infielder.

CoachBombay
09-27-2013, 10:28 AM
Bumping this to the top.
Is it just me, or does Soto seem totally lost at the plate at the ML level?
I guess he's young enough to keep in AAA a few more years, but unless he learns how to play great 3b (like Frazier/Hannahan level defense), I don't think he's going to make it. Even with good defense, not sure he'll be able to hit well enough to be a backup infielder.

Its not you at all..I personally dont see him as ever being an every day MLB player

mdccclxix
09-27-2013, 10:33 AM
The couple times I saw him it looked like he was told to swing really hard three times and see what happens. I don't know if that indicates his true skill or if he's just trying to make a splash.

Tom Servo
09-27-2013, 11:16 AM
1st pitch: Called strike
2nd pitch: Breaking ball in dirt, swings
3rd pitch: Called or swinging strike

PepperJack
09-27-2013, 02:45 PM
I really hope it's just jitters from trying to make a big impression. Otherwise he looks really bad up there.

757690
09-27-2013, 03:47 PM
Willie Mays was 0-12 and 1-26 to start his career. Just saying.

Benihana
09-27-2013, 07:44 PM
Willie Mays was 0-12 and 1-26 to start his career. Just saying.

Senator, Neftali Soto is no Willie Mays

camisadelgolf
09-27-2013, 07:54 PM
Senator, Neftali Soto is no Willie Mays
Although it's obvious that 757690 was saying Soto is better than Mays, I think it's premature to say that Soto isn't the next Willie Mays. Soto's so much better right now than Mays ever was, and it's not even close. Only time will tell if he can keep it up.

757690
09-27-2013, 08:50 PM
Senator, Neftali Soto is no Willie Mays

You are correct. Soto is taller and younger.