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Old school 1983
04-28-2013, 04:27 PM
I know it's premature, but if cingrani continues his success would the Reds consider moving a starter for outfield help? I know the Rockies started hot but the idea of trading for dexter fowler was around this winter. They were looking for top pitching for him. Would anyone do bailey or maybe even cueto for the guy? He'd give the reds legit centerfield defense a legit two hitter and an insurance policy if choo could not be signed after the season. Honestly I would consider cueto straight up. He's great but I think talentwise he's maxed out where I see bailey getting better and better. Any thoughts? I know I'm going to get a few I'm crazies and this isn't a video game but I think I'd rather talk about something intriguing than arguing about a hypothetical trade for career backup denorfia.

Old school 1983
04-28-2013, 04:34 PM
I'm assuming that a package with leake was offered this off season so I'm not considering it.

cincyredway
04-28-2013, 05:02 PM
I wouldn't trade cueto for fowler, it would help offensively, but that leaves u with no depth on pitching. I probably wouldn't trade cueto, Latos or bailey right now.

Old school 1983
04-28-2013, 05:09 PM
I wouldn't trade cueto for fowler, it would help offensively, but that leaves u with no depth on pitching. I probably wouldn't trade cueto, Latos or bailey right now.

I wouldn't "want" (like jumping out of my shoes at the proposal) to but if the 2 spot continues to be dead and choos defense remains suspect I may consider it. I think it'd be a slight overpay for the reds.

cincyredway
04-28-2013, 05:15 PM
I wonder if the reds would consider going after Jose Bautista, I don't think the jays will hang in there in the east, and he may b available. Wonder what it would take to get him.

Old school 1983
04-28-2013, 05:26 PM
I wonder if the reds would consider going after Jose Bautista, I don't think the jays will hang in there in the east, and he may b available. Wonder what it would take to get him.

Part of me says his best years are behind him. But if the deal was right I'd do it but I don't think I'd give any of our top three starters. Another guy that could be a fit is rios from the white sox. Good power. Good obp. Low K

cincyredway
04-28-2013, 05:30 PM
No I wouldn't give up our top 3 starters or cingrani, just thinking of guys that could become available, and yes I think rios could b a good option.

Old school 1983
04-28-2013, 05:34 PM
I still think I like fowler the best of those three. He'd improve the D the lineup and add speed. I think the other two would only improve the lineup, not that that is a bad thing.

cincyredway
04-28-2013, 05:38 PM
Ya I agree about fowler, I just don't see the Rockies trading him, it would take one heck of an offer for them to trade him, but if they did I would love to see fowler as a red.

Old school 1983
04-28-2013, 05:44 PM
Yeah. It'd take one heck of an offer. That's why I think it'd have to be cueto or bailey level unless you got Bham involved with leake. On Bautista idk who I'd offer. He seems to me to be able to go either way as a player right now. If somehow he could be acquired I'd consider playing him at third so the option of moving choo from center could be open. Speaking if third basemen what would you think of Michael young? I don't think he'd cost too much as he is old and would be a rental but his bat could easily slot into the 2 or 4 spot.

cincyredway
04-28-2013, 05:54 PM
Michael young maybe, but I would rather just leave Frazier at third. Some other options could b Martin prado, dejesus, Corey hart, if he comes back and brewers don't stay in it, maybe Vernon wells from the yanks, Colby rasmus, and possibly Michael morse from the mariners.

Old school 1983
04-28-2013, 05:59 PM
Michael young maybe, but I would rather just leave Frazier at third. Some other options could b Martin prado, dejesus, Corey hart, if he comes back and brewers don't stay in it, maybe Vernon wells from the yanks, Colby rasmus, and possibly Michael morse from the mariners.

I'd love prado but I think the dbackswont let go. Dejesus i like. For me Rasmus morse strike out too much. We have enough high K guys. As far as Frazier idk if I'm as high on him as everyone else. I like him but I think the two spots on the team that could use defensive improvement are third and center. I'd not just dump him. He does have value but if the right deal came up I'd consider moving him.

RedlegJake
04-30-2013, 10:48 AM
pitching wins over offense every time...how many big slugging clubs win it? How many great pitching but offensively challenged clubs have? There are loads of examples of the latter...none I can remenber of the first. Every good hitting team that has won had at least solid pitching if not great. Even the BRM staffs were vastly underrated in their day and were deep in decent quality arms. Trade Leake and lose a starter for a month and who pitches? Galarraga? A Corcino who looks over matched right now? And next year when Arroyo is gone? Only a really unbalanced deal in the Reds favor would make me trade Leake.

RedsBrick
04-30-2013, 11:41 AM
I agree with RLJ...Pitching wins championships. Losing a Cueto, Latos, Bailey would hurt worse than gaining a run producing outfielder would help.

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 12:18 PM
I agree pitching wins over offense the majority of the time. The BRM is a poor example to the contrary bc their pitching was underrated as previously stated. The HUGE qualifier in this proposal would be the if cingrani is for real part and not the second coming of Jack Armstrong. If he still looks effective a few times through the league I'd start considering. As far as I see with our pitching latos and bailey are still improving on their potential whereas cueto is tapped out on his. He'll be great for a few more years but I believe bailey latos cingrani and even leake will continue to improve and it could be argued that latos is and bailey (the two guys id lock up) is close to ace level cueto right now. As far as losing arroyo next year, lets worry about that next year. We have an entire season for prospects to step up (I think corcino will get right he's been rushed up the system). Plus we'd have an entire offseason to bring in other guys and at the trade deadline this year too. Losing cueto would hurt but I think IF cingrani can be for real, then our rotation wouldn't lose much of what it is now and may actually improve as a group as the young pitchers improve. Plus you'd gain an offensive piece that'd improve that side as well. Plus fowlers defense and speed are superior to choos in center and probably superior to Hamilton (in ability not speed) so the overall defensive improvement would help the team as well.

RedlegJake
04-30-2013, 12:35 PM
I will say this OS....Fowler would make me think long and hard about it...he is one of the few reasonable targets that would.

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 01:45 PM
I will say this OS....Fowler would make me think long and hard about it...he is one of the few reasonable targets that would.

He'd bring a ton to this team now as a viable two hole hitter and superior defender in center as well as adding speed. He'd also bring a ton to this team over the off season and next year. He'd make resigning choo less of a priority and that money could be used in the rotation to extend a guy or to replace cueto who would be traded. Plus he'd act as an insurance policy if Bham is still not ready at that point too. If he is slide fowler to left use ludwick as right handed bench power or platoon with Hamilton for one of the fastest outfiekds in recent memory. (fowler to center on those days).

Vottomatic
04-30-2013, 02:29 PM
Usually, I don't like the idea of trading starting pitching depth. But Walt has done a pretty good job of increasing the depth in that area.

With the emergence of Cingrani, and the solid showing from Galarraga at Louisville.........and you could even jump to double AA and see Sharky Rogers sub-2.00 e.r.a........and even minor league journeyman Greg Reynolds and Villareal are having okay years at triple A.

And in an emergency, Hoover spent most of his minor league career in the Braves organization as a starter. LeCure could pinch-start if needed.

I'm less worried that trading Leake would hurt this team.

I'm also not so sure Hamilton arrives in the majors PERMANENTLY, if ever, before 2015.

I'm not sure what it would take to get Fowler, but I'd definitely inquire.

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 04:49 PM
In my baseball dream world I'd like to think that Frazier leake and a Cisco/Romano level prospect could land fowler but the Rockies always want top price for their players. At that point the reds could go with an Hrod hannahan platoon at third or maybe go after a Polanco or Michael You g if he's not too expensive.

Vottomatic
04-30-2013, 05:38 PM
Reds won't trade Frazier. He is a clubhouse favorite by everyone in that clubhouse. One of the most liked and enjoyable guys on the team. The other players would be beyond upset if they traded Todd.

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 05:56 PM
Reds won't trade Frazier. He is a clubhouse favorite by everyone in that clubhouse. One of the most liked and enjoyable guys on the team. The other players would be beyond upset if they traded Todd.

Sometimes you gotta get over it to make the team better. And I know he's a delightful guy and I love his personality but if his average hovers in the .240 range with average defense idk if he'd be worth all that much as a starter on the team unless he's hitting 45 homers and driving in 100. This isn't a knock on you you're a great contributer here but on reds fans in general. We tend to fall in love with guys and make them out to be more than they really are in our heads when it's time to let go to make the team better. Casey, freel, Dunn (more of a love hate thing), Larkin in his later years, and more recently the Hanigan/mes argument. I think the pitching of late kinda proves that while he had an impact, it wasn't some huge mystical thing we thought it was.

If Frazier hovers around .240 and isn't hugely productive and offers average D at best, I think the personality loss would be offset with talent if a guy like fowler was the return.

Vottomatic
04-30-2013, 06:09 PM
Sometimes you gotta get over it to make the team better. And I know he's a delightful guy and I love his personality but if his average hovers in the .240 range with average defense idk if he'd be worth all that much as a starter on the team unless he's hitting 45 homers and driving in 100. This isn't a knock on you you're a great contributer here but on reds fans in general. We tend to fall in love with guys and make them out to be more than they really are in our heads when it's time to let go to make the team better. Casey, freel, Dunn (more of a love hate thing), Larkin in his later years, and more recently the Hanigan/mes argument. I think the pitching of late kinda proves that while he had an impact, it wasn't some huge mystical thing we thought it was.

If Frazier hovers around .240 and isn't hugely productive and offers average D at best, I think the personality loss would be offset with talent if a guy like fowler was the return.

......and if Frazier bats .240, "isn't hugely productive and offers average D at best", why do you think the Rockies would want him?

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 06:55 PM
......and if Frazier bats .240, "isn't hugely productive and offers average D at best", why do you think the Rockies would want him?

Whyd the indians want stubbs? The other stuff they'd be getting too. i digress but frazier....Because he brings plus power and has intangibles. Plus with Helton aging they could put him at first where his D wouldn't be as big of an issue. I like him. He's a productive player. I just see him out of the reds starters as a guy that'd have the most value in a trade without being a detrimental loss to the team if the right player is had in return. I'd not just dump him. The reds would have to get an impact player like fowler Headley or Stanton in return for me to move Frazier. And like I said if I had to give up Frazier or Bruce I'd kiss Todd goodbye. Same if the Rockies said cueto for fowler or Todd leake and prospects for fowler I'd take that every time if the prospects were like a Romano Cisco level.

Old school 1983
04-30-2013, 06:59 PM
And if you try to catch me contradicting myself with saying he's not productive in one aspect but is in another, let me clarify. In the reds lineup he's one of two similar feast or famine type of power guys (he and Bruce). They are similar in the fact that while they can mash one they strike out a lot back to back and kill rally's. that's not productive to the lineup even if it looks that way numberwise overall. Whereas if he were in Colorado they could go cargo tulo and Frazier in some order and not have a huge issue like we have. I think two feast or famine guys especially in a row is not productive in a lineup.

TitosLoveChild
05-01-2013, 01:35 PM
Reds won't trade Frazier. He is a clubhouse favorite by everyone in that clubhouse. One of the most liked and enjoyable guys on the team. The other players would be beyond upset if they traded Todd.

Its not like the Reds have a fractured clubhouse. And its baseball. I'm not sure how important "clubhouse guy" will/should factor into trades.

Old school 1983
05-01-2013, 01:39 PM
Its not like the Reds have a fractured clubhouse. And its baseball. I'm not sure how important "clubhouse guy" will/should factor into trades.

Unless he's like a 1999 Greg Vaughn on the reds then not much. But then again Vaughn was a beast and an integral part of the team on the field.

I'd love to get a guy like fowler but a guy that I think could do even more for the team is Headley. Anyone think the padres would consider cueto or bailey in a trade for him?

tsdavis11
05-01-2013, 11:02 PM
Would you deal Leake + Hamilton for him? Would they?

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 07:05 AM
Would you deal Leake + Hamilton for him? Would they?

I don't think they would. I think they'd want higher quality pitching than that. I don't think I would either. Hamilton isn't just another fast guy. He's once in a lifetime fast. A player like that needs to try to be developed in our system. A loss of a cueto or bailey could be replaceable. The loss of speed like his simply could t be. For me to get rid of him I'd have to be overwhelmed. The angels would more or less have to offer the reds trout or the nats Harper.

dwyerbrg
05-02-2013, 01:34 PM
Leake is considered a spare part by many around here, but what happens if they move him, and Cingrani falls off the map? Or there's another injury? Isn't the comfort of having extra ML-ready pitching better than taking a chance on a LF some team is willing to move at this point.

I would not give up any ML pitching for ML offense at this point in the season, seems to me that type of trade should've taken place in the off-season where you have a chance to address any issues you have with the pitching staff instead of being forced to continue with what you have in place. I know it looks good right now, but you move Leake and another pitcher gets hurt, then who?