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Old school 1983
05-01-2013, 09:24 PM
I've seen many different takes in the reds offensive woes and what should be done. Here is mine.

First off to everyone pointing at left and the two hole as the problem spots that needs fixed. That view while obvious is misguided. They are symptoms of the bigger issue with the offense: no right handed impact bat to protect votto and poorer team D in general.

Look at the history. 2010 Gomes on fire. Votto protected he wins MVP. Last year we had ludwick to protect Phillips and votto in the three hole. Reds win 97. ( yes I know great D and pitching too but ill get back to that). 2011. No consistent cleanup. No playoffs. Seems like a theme.

Second issue with this lineup. Too many low contact high pop guys. This results in a one dimemsional atrack in high Ks and inconsistent offensive performances.

So how to fix it? Well right now it's way too soon to bring in any impact player so the reds are going to have to rely on their pitching to carry them to the trade deadline, but at the same time change things in the lineup.

Step one: ID the issue. The 4 spot but that can't be fixed until the deadline so fix the symptoms while improving the D.

So this means the two hole needs fixed while we improve the defense of the team at its two weak links. Center and third.

First thing first. Do not assume ludwick will return and be at peak form, so It's Billy time. (Robinson down) Yes I know he probably not ready but right now we are getting nothing out of the two spot and our one dimensional approach with no speed is killing the top of the order. Plus just by virtue of his speed and athletic ability, it's a good bet he will be better than choo in center. Then choo can move to left and improve that too. In the two spot I'd use billy to bunt and move choo over and use his speed to disrupt the defense as much as possible and get on himself. He doesn't have to be a star. He just has to do better than cozart et al have done in the two spot so there wouldn't be much pressure.

Step two: the Bruce Frazier decision. These two back to back in the order are the key culprits for the weak contact high K rally killing issue. So which one to keep in the lineup and who to pull. My answer is pull Todd. Bruce plays all star caliber D that never slumps plus he has a track record of streakiness. Frazier on the otherhand doesn't bring much of anything with his D when the bst is in famine mode. So what to do with third and what to do with Frazier?

Third: hannahan brings the leather and gives decent at bats staying within himself and makes decent contact. AAA prospect Henry Rodriguez (lutz down for now) brings a solid contact switch hitting bat that the reds could use as a step away from feast or famine fence flailing. So my solution would be when Mez starts at catcher go with the D in hannahan. When anyone else starts go with the O with Hrod.

Frazier: use him as last year. A super sub and right handed power off the bench. He can crush lesser pitchers or bring pop to the lineup when key stars need a break. Use him in those situations. Pick your spots and pitchers he can crush and insert him wisely. He can be an asset playing 100 to 120 games or so but he gets exposed as undisciplined as he starts more and sees better pitching.

Catcher: there aren't many hitting issues with the catcher if that catcher is Mez. He gives good at bats seems to have a decent eye and makes hard contact. The other two catchers aren't bringing much to the plate. Solution. So long hanigan is out play Mez 4 out of 5 days. If his injury is prolonged corky needs to go. Bring up Barnhart.

So after all if that the reds need to sit back and assess and go from there.

The next part of my plan for at the deadline goes as follows:

If cingrani is the real deal use either cueto or bailey as the key piece in a trade for Headley from San Diego. If ludwick looks like good right handed power off the bench or in a spot start use Frazier and prospect to grab a plus pitcher to add to rotation. Maybe a josh Johnson rental.

If cingrani struggles: use prospects to acquire Michael Young from the phillies.

That'd solve the four spot issue and depending on the billy experiment Phillips could go back to two or behind Bruce.

So line before deadline:

Choo
Hamilton
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Mez
Hannahan/Rodriguez
Cozart

Post deadline:

Choo
Hamilton
Votto
Young/Headley
Bruce
Phillips
Mez
Cozart

Or

Choo
Phillips
Votto
Headley/young
Bruce
Ludwick
Mez
Cozart

Well. That's my take. Lets hear how crazy I am and how this is real life and not a video game. Haha

dwyerbrg
05-02-2013, 07:50 AM
Billy is hitting .205/.278/.307 in AAA...he's not ready and to bring him up now just makes this offense worse at this point.

Barnhart is better, but he's in AA...doubt they bring up a C from AA at this point in time.

I don't think trading pitching for hitting at this point is a good idea unless the guy you get is a superstar...I don't know that Headley or Young would be worth giving up our pitching depth...

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 08:17 AM
Billy is hitting .205/.278/.307 in AAA...he's not ready and to bring him up now just makes this offense worse at this point.

Barnhart is better, but he's in AA...doubt they bring up a C from AA at this point in time.

I don't think trading pitching for hitting at this point is a good idea unless the guy you get is a superstar...I don't know that Headley or Young would be worth giving up our pitching depth...

I know what billy is hitting in AAA. I also heard his BABIP is only .250. Also in a perfect world I'd say use Robinson in the outfield and bat him second. While using hannahan and hrod at third. Unfortunately the reds play in dustys world where the one or two times a week Robinson gets to play, he bats 8th and any of his speed and bunting ability is negated.

I recognize Hamilton isn't ready but I think dusty would be more likely to bat him second than Robinson, plus he doesn't have to light the world up. He had to be fast and be able to get a runner over. If he can only get on base once a game I think his speed would be a more of a factor than anything anyone else does in that spot. Right now no one in the two hole even has the consistent ability to even just move choo over after he gets on.

As far as Barnhart, the reds just brought Lutz up from AA. Idk why really. We have enough players of his handiness and skillset on the team. I'd go with Hrod. I would only go with Barnhart if hanigan is going to be out awhile. I heard his D is major league ready and I think anything is better than corkys bat. It's like having two pitchers in a row and that's an insult to some of our pitchers hitting.

I'd never give up any of our starters for young. He's older and would just be a rental. Use prospects. Headley is a superstar and I think he'd bring this lineup together, improve the D and add protection to votto. What's the point of investing 225 million if he's never going to be able to hit at his maximum potential if he's never pitched to?

cumberlandreds
05-02-2013, 08:24 AM
It's not time for Hamilton. He needs to prove he can do it in AAA before he comes to the show. So far he hasn't done much in AAA. He probably needs the entire season in Louisville.
Maybe a September callup if he's doing well by then.

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 08:40 AM
It's not time for Hamilton. He needs to prove he can do it in AAA before he comes to the show. So far he hasn't done much in AAA. He probably needs the entire season in Louisville.
Maybe a September callup if he's doing well by then.

I recognize he may not be ready to be a star leadoff hitter in the big leagues. I'd be asking him to be a role player in the two spot that'd use his speed and bunting to pressure the defense and get choo over. That's more than any of our two hole guys are doing now. (Please see what I said about Robinson in my previous post on this thread).

But honestly who on the current roster could fill that role in the two hole consistently, would be played regularly by dusty, and not be a defensive detriment? No one except Robinson, and well dusty won't play him regularly or bat him second.

cumberlandreds
05-02-2013, 09:03 AM
I recognize he may not be ready to be a star leadoff hitter in the big leagues. I'd be asking him to be a role player in the two spot that'd use his speed and bunting to pressure the defense and get choo over. That's more than any of our two hole guys are doing now. (Please see what I said about Robinson in my previous post on this thread).

But honestly who on the current roster could fill that role in the two hole consistently, would be played regularly by dusty, and not be a defensive detriment? No one except Robinson, and well dusty won't play him regularly or bat him second.

Hamilton needs to be playing everyday and Louisville is the place for that. He won't get any better sitting on the bench and maybe getting one or starts a week. His role will be a starting CF and when he is ready for that then he can be called up. I do agree with you about Robinson. I would like to see him play more. He has great speed and if he can get on base he would really help out. I don't know if he can or cannot do that since he's hardly playing.

Rock of Truth
05-02-2013, 09:26 AM
Billy is hitting .167 in his last 10 with an OBP of Less than .290. During these 10 games, he has zero muti-hit games and only 3 times has he been on base twice in the same game. His game needs work.

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 09:40 AM
Hamilton needs to be playing everyday and Louisville is the place for that. He won't get any better sitting on the bench and maybe getting one or starts a week. His role will be a starting CF and when he is ready for that then he can be called up. I do agree with you about Robinson. I would like to see him play more. He has great speed and if he can get on base he would really help out. I don't know if he can or cannot do that since he's hardly playing.

That was kind of my point on Hamilton. In an ideal world I say leave him in AAA until the last day he can be called up and be playoff eligible. Unfortunately we aren't in an ideal world. We have tons of injuries that have thrown the team and lineup out of whack. On top of it dusty is not playing his two best IMO options in the second spot, Mez or Robinson, namely Robinson. I think if billy came up with a mandate that he play everyday it'd force dustys hand. In my baseball dreamworld Robinson plays center bats second and holds the spot down until a more permanent solution can be found.

RedlegJake
05-02-2013, 09:41 AM
Yeah...I have to think you'd really mess Billy up...leave him where he is. Robinson is very similar player a couple three notches below Billy but at this point probably offers more. Simply make a Paul/Robinson platoon in left and bat them 2d. I agree about Mes with Hanny out. Cork should float out there once a week max. I still would play Hanny 2-3x a week if he was available...its not all about hitting you know. Hanigan is elite on the D side. Give Bruce a day or two off and hope he locks back in on returning. Its helped before. Hannahan over Frazier at 3d only marginally improves D and Jack has NONE of the offensive ability of Todd. You knock Hanigans offense but will put a guy at third who is as bad or worse. And Frazier has hardly been bad at third. No Rolen but he isn't a butcher either.

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 09:44 AM
Billy is hitting .167 in his last 10 with an OBP of Less than .290. During these 10 games, he has zero muti-hit games and only 3 times has he been on base twice in the same game. His game needs work.

I'm going to sarcastically make the April battle cry on here. Small sample size. I'm not saying call him up because I believe he's totally major league ready. I actually believe the contrary. But dusty isn't exploring better options in the majors. It's not an ideal situation right now. If it was I'd be a fool to say bring him up. The injuries and lack of exploring better in team options has kinda led me to the point if saying why not billy

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 09:51 AM
Yeah...I have to think you'd really mess Billy up...leave him where he is. Robinson is very similar player a couple three notches below Billy but at this point probably offers more. Simply make a Paul/Robinson platoon in left and bat them 2d. I agree about Mes with Hanny out. Cork should float out there once a week max. I still would play Hanny 2-3x a week if he was available...its not all about hitting you know. Hanigan is elite on the D side. Give Bruce a day or two off and hope he locks back in on returning. Its helped before. Hannahan over Frazier at 3d only marginally improves D and Jack has NONE of the offensive ability of Todd. You knock Hanigans offense but will put a guy at third who is as bad or worse. And Frazier has hardly been bad at third. No Rolen but he isn't a butcher either.

Once hanigan comes back he should get two starters until he can prove his hitting woes were injury related. The staff has pitched well with Mez in there. I'm sure hanny has an effect on the pitching but I think this period where he is out has proved it's not as mystical as some once thought. As far as Frazier I'd use hannahan and Hrod at third. Hannahan brings the glove and actually has a fecent approach at the plate. Hrod would bring the bat. Right now Frazier looks like he couldn't hit water if he fell out of the titanic. His glove doesn't justify him being in there when he is this cold. Id definitely give him playing time though. Spot him in right to give Bruce a chance to chill. Spot him in left and at third occasionally. If his bat gets hot again ride the hot hand. I was also saying play the D when Mez and play the bat with whoever else back there. In other words Frazier or Henry Rodriguez.

RedlegJake
05-02-2013, 10:00 AM
I think our biggest diff after reading your reply is our perceptions of Hannahan as a hitter. We agree that adjustments are screamed for but Dusty seems incapable of that. Nothing huge, imo, as I think this is going to selfcorrect over time but Corky starting and his handling of the 2 spot drive me crazy. I'd be for spot starting Hannahan to give Todd a bit of time off choosing those spots based on which pitcher is likely to give Todd fits. Same with Bruce. When he is cold give him day or two off. When either is cold a start for someone else hardly hurts the offense and might help them get going again.

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 10:46 AM
I think our biggest diff after reading your reply is our perceptions of Hannahan as a hitter. We agree that adjustments are screamed for but Dusty seems incapable of that. Nothing huge, imo, as I think this is going to selfcorrect over time but Corky starting and his handling of the 2 spot drive me crazy. I'd be for spot starting Hannahan to give Todd a bit of time off choosing those spots based on which pitcher is likely to give Todd fits. Same with Bruce. When he is cold give him day or two off. When either is cold a start for someone else hardly hurts the offense and might help them get going again.

I agree exactly with that. My hrod part is more inline with why the heck did they call Lutz up? We have plenty of players that offer his skillset. I have no delusions of grandeur for jack at the plate. I look at it this way. Frazier struggles against better pitching. When the reds play a top starter hannahan should play. His glove will probably save more runs than Frazier will bat in. Our pitching will keep us in the game. Later in the game when a reliever comes in that throws more gas and less crooked stuff pinch hit Frazier and see if he could pop one. Sounds kind of like last year where Frazier was a success.

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 10:52 AM
Jake you're definitely right about stuff self correcting too. Baseball is a long season and stuff definitely does even out. I like your approach regarding Frazier too. Spot him in where he can succeed. A lot of people on here treat him like a perennial all star and dont realize this is his first year starting and he'll have bumps whereit may be better to go with a veteran backup, or worse case senerio prove himself not to be a big league starter. Concerning calling up Rodriguez, I think he could be tried at the 2 spot whereas Lutz never could.

RedlegJake
05-02-2013, 11:37 AM
Rodriguez? You mean Hamilton? LOL....I am anxiously following Yorman too but he's still in A ball. Saw your minor league forum question about a late season call for him so I'm betting you had Yorman's future possibilities on your mind when you said that. You must be like me...the whole Reds spectrum at once...

CySeymour
05-02-2013, 11:45 AM
I don't see how having Hamilton in the bigs right how would fix anything ailing the Reds. Leave him in AAA to learn how to hit advanced pitching. Stick with the plan.

Vottomatic
05-02-2013, 12:32 PM
How do we know it wasn't simply a bad month of hitting for the Reds?

Geez. Even though the Cardinals won 2 of 3, the Reds announcers were talking about Cardinal players who were struggling too. Descalso is batting .169, Freese batting .163 with no HR's (22 last year), Jay batting .204. Other than Molina and Beltran batting over .300, everyone else is batting .265 or less.

The Cards are lucky their starters have the following e.r.a.'s:
Wainwright 2.03
Lynn 2.75
Garcia 2.50
Miller 2.05
Westbrook 0.98

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 12:34 PM
Rodriguez? You mean Hamilton? LOL....I am anxiously following Yorman too but he's still in A ball. Saw your minor league forum question about a late season call for him so I'm betting you had Yorman's future possibilities on your mind when you said that. You must be like me...the whole Reds spectrum at once...

I do like how yorman is stepping up and I definitely keep an eye on the minors but I was speaking of Henry Rodriguez in AAA. He has a nice contact based bat.

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 12:47 PM
How do we know it wasn't simply a bad month of hitting for the Reds?

Geez. Even though the Cardinals won 2 of 3, the Reds announcers were talking about Cardinal players who were struggling too. Descalso is batting .169, Freese batting .163 with no HR's (22 last year), Jay batting .204. Other than Molina and Beltran batting over .300, everyone else is batting .265 or less.

The Cards are lucky their starters have the following e.r.a.'s:
Wainwright 2.03
Lynn 2.75
Garcia 2.50
Miller 2.05
Westbrook 0.98

Oh I agree that we have had a bad month of hitting. But think the overall weakness of the makeup of the lineup was exposed. Just too many one dimensional hitters and with the exception of choo votto and Phillips at times, it seems like the reds players swing from their heels too much. And it's just not a this April trend. You can see it in past performances of some of these guys too. I have no doubt that cozart will hit better and Bruce will get hot. What I do doubt is Fraziers ability to make contact. He's looking more like the 2011 Frazier than last years version and he has no extensive track record to lean back on. Same with left field. I think possible in house solutions are there in Robinson and Paul but I lack confidence in dusty to a risky put it in place. Also I don't understand his reasoning in running out corky so much when the offense is struggling.

As far as the cards pitching I think they are performing over their heads and the reds staff has a much better chance of sustaining their success.

I know the reds started slow last year and 1975 is always pointed to as well, but in those years the pieces were in place on those teams all they had to do was come together. This year because of injury the reds are lacking a key piece they need. That right handed impact bat. I think Mez has an outside shot of stepping up to be that if dusty lets him play enough. I think Frazier is just too inconsistent to be that guy. So I'm thinking at some point an outside piece will be needed. I think we can hold it together well enough until the deadline. Lets hope they can address the appropriate needs then.

REDREAD
05-02-2013, 01:17 PM
We have to stay the course with Frasier. He's leaps and bounds above anyone in the Reds system that could potentially replace him.

Now if you want to try some games with Frasier in LF (since LF is a black hole) and Hannaran at 3b, I think that might be worth it.
Hannaran might do better than the motely crew we've had in LF.

Old school 1983
05-02-2013, 01:34 PM
We have to stay the course with Frasier. He's leaps and bounds above anyone in the Reds system that could potentially replace him.

Now if you want to try some games with Frasier in LF (since LF is a black hole) and Hannaran at 3b, I think that might be worth it.
Hannaran might do better than the motely crew we've had in LF.

I think that needs to be looked I to more. I also think though choo needs to find his way to a corner outfield spot. I don't want to give up on Frazier, and I hope he proves me wrong, but I just don't think he is the player some people think he is.

Goose1701
05-03-2013, 01:20 AM
Hamilton's elite speed is kind of irrelevant if he can't get on base at the major league level. But there's isn't much doubt he'd be a defensive improvement in CF over Choo. But yeah don't want to risk damaging the kid by bringing him up too early.

Old school 1983
05-03-2013, 07:09 AM
Hamilton's elite speed is kind of irrelevant if he can't get on base at the major league level. But there's isn't much doubt he'd be a defensive improvement in CF over Choo. But yeah don't want to risk damaging the kid by bringing him up too early.

I really don't "want" to call him up because he is ready because he is not 100% ready. . In a perfect worldwhere the reds don't have injuries out the wazoo I'd not even consider it. The reds do have two hole options in the big leagues that'd be servicable, but dusty wont use them. Generally, if the top prospect comes up he plays. I think it'd force dustys hand a bit. Like I was saying. He doesn't have to be a superstar. He just has to be better than the known alternative. I think he'd do that the minute he'd lay down a bunt, move choo over and cause the D to panic. But really he's a hot streak at AAA away from more people than myself calling for him.

RedlegJake
05-03-2013, 08:20 AM
I totally oppose bringing Billy up but you are right....let him get hot and lots of people will start pressing the Billy button. There is this...the guy has always struggled early after a promotion but gets it together and ends up solid. I'm not too concerned about his horrid AAA line yet.

Old school 1983
05-03-2013, 08:29 AM
I totally oppose bringing Billy up but you are right....let him get hot and lots of people will start pressing the Billy button. There is this...the guy has always struggled early after a promotion but gets it together and ends up solid. I'm not too concerned about his horrid AAA line yet.

Me either. I'm from the Dayton area and I remember his year with the dragons. He started off cold then it just clicked. This guy is a hard worker and very motivated. He will get there and when he does. The people will be calling for him in Cincinnati especially if the two spot woes continue.

RedlegJake
05-03-2013, 08:45 AM
I used to live on Chaucer Drive near Wright Patt. When Johnny Edwards was still catching for the Reds.

Old school 1983
05-03-2013, 08:55 AM
I used to live on Chaucer Drive near Wright Patt. When Johnny Edwards was still catching for the Reds.

That's way back before my time. Dayton has changed a lot. I was born the year Johnny Bench retired.

RedlegJake
05-03-2013, 09:00 AM
I grew up in Loveland and Hamilton and Dayton. I was in Cincy last spring and didn't recognize hardly anything...and sleepy little Loveland is just a suburban part of the metropolis now. Dayton seemed 4x as big. It all sure has changed. KC is home now but I will always be a Reds fan til I die. I guess the childhood team never leaves ones heart no matter where you go.

Old school 1983
05-03-2013, 09:10 AM
Oh. I know what you mean. My moms family is from Cincinnati. I grew up on the reds and I never see me not being a fan no matter where I go.

Johnny Fan
05-03-2013, 11:42 AM
I've seen many different takes in the reds offensive woes and what should be done. Here is mine.

First off to everyone pointing at left and the two hole as the problem spots that needs fixed. That view while obvious is misguided. They are symptoms of the bigger issue with the offense: no right handed impact bat to protect votto and poorer team D in general.

Look at the history. 2010 Gomes on fire. Votto protected he wins MVP. Last year we had ludwick to protect Phillips and votto in the three hole. Reds win 97. ( yes I know great D and pitching too but ill get back to that). 2011. No consistent cleanup. No playoffs. Seems like a theme.

Second issue with this lineup. Too many low contact high pop guys. This results in a one dimemsional atrack in high Ks and inconsistent offensive performances.

So how to fix it? Well right now it's way too soon to bring in any impact player so the reds are going to have to rely on their pitching to carry them to the trade deadline, but at the same time change things in the lineup.

Step one: ID the issue. The 4 spot but that can't be fixed until the deadline so fix the symptoms while improving the D.

So this means the two hole needs fixed while we improve the defense of the team at its two weak links. Center and third.

First thing first. Do not assume ludwick will return and be at peak form, so It's Billy time. (Robinson down) Yes I know he probably not ready but right now we are getting nothing out of the two spot and our one dimensional approach with no speed is killing the top of the order. Plus just by virtue of his speed and athletic ability, it's a good bet he will be better than choo in center. Then choo can move to left and improve that too. In the two spot I'd use billy to bunt and move choo over and use his speed to disrupt the defense as much as possible and get on himself. He doesn't have to be a star. He just has to do better than cozart et al have done in the two spot so there wouldn't be much pressure.

Step two: the Bruce Frazier decision. These two back to back in the order are the key culprits for the weak contact high K rally killing issue. So which one to keep in the lineup and who to pull. My answer is pull Todd. Bruce plays all star caliber D that never slumps plus he has a track record of streakiness. Frazier on the otherhand doesn't bring much of anything with his D when the bst is in famine mode. So what to do with third and what to do with Frazier?

Third: hannahan brings the leather and gives decent at bats staying within himself and makes decent contact. AAA prospect Henry Rodriguez (lutz down for now) brings a solid contact switch hitting bat that the reds could use as a step away from feast or famine fence flailing. So my solution would be when Mez starts at catcher go with the D in hannahan. When anyone else starts go with the O with Hrod.

Frazier: use him as last year. A super sub and right handed power off the bench. He can crush lesser pitchers or bring pop to the lineup when key stars need a break. Use him in those situations. Pick your spots and pitchers he can crush and insert him wisely. He can be an asset playing 100 to 120 games or so but he gets exposed as undisciplined as he starts more and sees better pitching.

Catcher: there aren't many hitting issues with the catcher if that catcher is Mez. He gives good at bats seems to have a decent eye and makes hard contact. The other two catchers aren't bringing much to the plate. Solution. So long hanigan is out play Mez 4 out of 5 days. If his injury is prolonged corky needs to go. Bring up Barnhart.

So after all if that the reds need to sit back and assess and go from there.

The next part of my plan for at the deadline goes as follows:

If cingrani is the real deal use either cueto or bailey as the key piece in a trade for Headley from San Diego. If ludwick looks like good right handed power off the bench or in a spot start use Frazier and prospect to grab a plus pitcher to add to rotation. Maybe a josh Johnson rental.

If cingrani struggles: use prospects to acquire Michael Young from the phillies.

That'd solve the four spot issue and depending on the billy experiment Phillips could go back to two or behind Bruce.

So line before deadline:

Choo
Hamilton
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Mez
Hannahan/Rodriguez
Cozart

Post deadline:

Choo
Hamilton
Votto
Young/Headley
Bruce
Phillips
Mez
Cozart

Or

Choo
Phillips
Votto
Headley/young
Bruce
Ludwick
Mez
Cozart

Well. That's my take. Lets hear how crazy I am and how this is real life and not a video game. Haha

We are only a month into the season, why change anything? Were not the Angles and way under .500, in fact we are over .500. As for Hamilton you want to see bad numbers, bring him up now and he will be lucky to hit .200 and ever get on base. Speed is great, but not sitting on the Bench. Why mess with Frazier, why worry over less then 30 games played?

Why trade for a player from SD you wouldn't have pass this season and give up a great pitcher? We have no idea if Cigirini is the real deal and we won't know that for at least another year if then. We are fine right now..

Old school 1983
05-03-2013, 01:04 PM
We are only a month into the season, why change anything? Were not the Angles and way under .500, in fact we are over .500. As for Hamilton you want to see bad numbers, bring him up now and he will be lucky to hit .200 and ever get on base. Speed is great, but not sitting on the Bench. Why mess with Frazier, why worry over less then 30 games played?

Why trade for a player from SD you wouldn't have pass this season and give up a great pitcher? We have no idea if Cigirini is the real deal and we won't know that for at least another year if then. We are fine right now..

Of course we are over 500. We have top notch pitching carrying us. Who would you bat second, that dusty would actually play and bat second? I'd all be for Robinson. I saw the angels slump coming from a mile away. Their pitching just isn't good enough.


Why mess with Frazier? The guy can't consistently hit or even give tough at bats against good pitching and unlike Bruce his D is not stellar. He was cold to finish last year, and I really noticed holes in his swing last year. We already have enough free swingers out there so why hurt the defense when good pitching is in. If a team is throwing a high caliber pitcher lets play for defense with hannahan. His D will probably help save more runs than Frazier would produce in those situations. Lets let Frazier be right handed pop off the bench against relievers with a good fastball and let him start against lesser pitching he can clobber and bloat his numbers with.

And Headley is signed through next year as well. I'd be crazy to trade a starter for a rental. But why do it? There is no promise choo will return next year. We need to go for it. If our pitching proves solid without cueto it may be a sign we can live without him. Look back on the reds past 4 winning seasons. What did they have in common? An impact cleanup guy. 99 Vaughn. 2000 bichette 2010 Gomes. 2012 ludwick. Why make a 225 million dollar investment in votto if he gets no lineup protection? Phillips doesn't scare any pitcher and Bruce and Frazier are way too inconsistent. Just look at the cards. They know who is in the heart of their lineup. Beltran Holliday and Craig. All solid disciplined hitters who can instantly hurt you. Even when they lost pujols they didn't mess around hoping someone would step up. They got a proven hitter in Beltran. The reds need to do the same. Build the lineup around disciplined hitters at its core. We have votto and Phillips can be. Get another and this lineup will take off and the reds will win with pitching and offense.

Old school 1983
05-03-2013, 01:52 PM
Maybe billy time was more of an eye catcher than a real good idea. Ill admit that. But you know what, by the end of this year he will be a factor on this team. And this team being fine depends on how you define fine. If making the postseason is what you want, then yes this team will probably be adequate. If you want to win, they need a cleanup hitter. Period. If not they need at least a legit two hole hitter. My solution covered both and made the defense better in the process. I know billy isn't ready, but when he gets hot in AAA we should bring him up and ride the hot hand. Even if we gave up bailey in a trade for say Headley it would only make the team better in the playoffs. Our starters games 1thru3 would be the same as last year. I think I'd be ok with cingrani in a game 4 unless it was an us getting swept situation. So we'd be going to war with the same pt gets and an even better lineup that could actually produce runs without the longball. I know losing homer or cueto would hurt, but it's not like the rest if the rotation is a bunch of bums. Our 5th starter that everyone wants to trade for anyone is good enough to easily be a three on most staffs if not more than that on some others. Sometimes you have to build a playoff winner and give quality to get it. It's all just garbage in my head now but I think a trade like that is very plausible and not a pipe dream and would actually help the team more in the short and long run than a trade of prospects for Stanton that constantly comes up here.

texasdave
05-03-2013, 01:55 PM
I don't think any major trades are going to shake out until the deadline, if then. They are monitoring Ryan Ludwick's progress. If Reds' management feels he won't be back or won't be effective when he comes back, I could see them pulling the trigger on something substantial. Until then it's wait-and-see time. One caveat. If they seem to be falling substantially out of contention, I could see a major move being made. I agree that Chase Headley would look very good in the middle of the Reds' lineup.

REDREAD
05-03-2013, 02:02 PM
I totally oppose bringing Billy up but you are right....let him get hot and lots of people will start pressing the Billy button. There is this...the guy has always struggled early after a promotion but gets it together and ends up solid. I'm not too concerned about his horrid AAA line yet.

Yea I agree.
I can even see the line of reasoning that the Reds might be a marginally better team with Hamilton right now.. I'm not 100% convinced, but it's possible.

But man, this kid might be a star someday. Let's don't disrupt his development, especially when it's only a marginal at best improvement.
The Reds made a mistake and called up Homer way too early. Had they been more patient with Homer, he might've "clicked' earlier.. Maybe not, but at least Homer would've been spared all the barbs he got from being thrown to the wolves too soon.

Even if Hamilton ends up only becoming a middle-of-the-pack CF, it's another great success story for the Reds' farm system. A farm system needs to crank out the Cozarts, Frasiers, LeCures, and Heiseys along with the occasional star.

Old school 1983
05-03-2013, 03:28 PM
I don't think any major trades are going to shake out until the deadline, if then. They are monitoring Ryan Ludwick's progress. If Reds' management feels he won't be back or won't be effective when he comes back, I could see them pulling the trigger on something substantial. Until then it's wait-and-see time. One caveat. If they seem to be falling substantially out of contention, I could see a major move being made. I agree that Chase Headley would look very good in the middle of the Reds' lineup.

I was totally saying at the deadline. After we see how ludwick will be. And get a better read on cingrani. To do it now would be knee jerk and probably require a massive over pay

Old school 1983
05-03-2013, 03:31 PM
Yea I agree.
I can even see the line of reasoning that the Reds might be a marginally better team with Hamilton right now.. I'm not 100% convinced, but it's possible.

But man, this kid might be a star someday. Let's don't disrupt his development, especially when it's only a marginal at best improvement.
The Reds made a mistake and called up Homer way too early. Had they been more patient with Homer, he might've "clicked' earlier.. Maybe not, but at least Homer would've been spared all the barbs he got from being thrown to the wolves too soon.

Even if Hamilton ends up only becoming a middle-of-the-pack CF, it's another great success story for the Reds' farm system. A farm system needs to crank out the Cozarts, Frasiers, LeCures, and Heiseys along with the occasional star.

I totally see where you are coming from and really I'd agree. I just wish baker would go with Robinson in the two hole and it'd be a non issue for me. I was thinking by bringing billy up it may force his hand

Johnny Fan
05-06-2013, 05:07 PM
Of course we are over 500. We have top notch pitching carrying us. Who would you bat second, that dusty would actually play and bat second? I'd all be for Robinson. I saw the angels slump coming from a mile away. Their pitching just isn't good enough.


Why mess with Frazier? The guy can't consistently hit or even give tough at bats against good pitching and unlike Bruce his D is not stellar. He was cold to finish last year, and I really noticed holes in his swing last year. We already have enough free swingers out there so why hurt the defense when good pitching is in. If a team is throwing a high caliber pitcher lets play for defense with hannahan. His D will probably help save more runs than Frazier would produce in those situations. Lets let Frazier be right handed pop off the bench against relievers with a good fastball and let him start against lesser pitching he can clobber and bloat his numbers with.

And Headley is signed through next year as well. I'd be crazy to trade a starter for a rental. But why do it? There is no promise choo will return next year. We need to go for it. If our pitching proves solid without cueto it may be a sign we can live without him. Look back on the reds past 4 winning seasons. What did they have in common? An impact cleanup guy. 99 Vaughn. 2000 bichette 2010 Gomes. 2012 ludwick. Why make a 225 million dollar investment in votto if he gets no lineup protection? Phillips doesn't scare any pitcher and Bruce and Frazier are way too inconsistent. Just look at the cards. They know who is in the heart of their lineup. Beltran Holliday and Craig. All solid disciplined hitters who can instantly hurt you. Even when they lost pujols they didn't mess around hoping someone would step up. They got a proven hitter in Beltran. The reds need to do the same. Build the lineup around disciplined hitters at its core. We have votto and Phillips can be. Get another and this lineup will take off and the reds will win with pitching and offense.

So with not even a full season at third you are already to cut bait and let Frazier go....WOW:eek:

Old school 1983
05-06-2013, 05:17 PM
So with not even a full season at third you are already to cut bait and let Frazier go....WOW:eek:

I wouldn't be cutting bait. I'd be putting him in a position like he was last year when he was an asset to the team. Use his versatility and power when needed. Lets not kid ourselves. The guy had meh minor league numbers. His D leaves more to be desired no matter how you spin it. He has contact issues versus anything that is above average pitching. Hannahan has a way better glove. Not just marginal, more plate discipline, and averages a higher obp. Lets all get off of the Frazier is the next big thing bandwagon. He's a very nice piece. Probably not an all star. Lets platoon he and hannahan at third and he and Paul/lutz in left. He's get plenty of time and his bat wouldn't be exposed to above average pitching. Until yesterday he was hitting like .088 on the road. It's probably .1something now. Yes I know it was better last year. At the same time everyone is pointing to the toughness if the pitching faced on the road this year. This proves my point. Against above average pitching he is lost. I know it's early but you have to do better than that. I don't get why guys get do up in arms when I question why hannahan doesn't get more time but say that hanigan needs to play over Mez. I think if Mez got half the chance as Frazier he'd be a far more valuable player than Frazier.

SpiritofStLouis
05-06-2013, 05:31 PM
Gentlemen, be patient.

First of all, the Friars are making inroads to re-sign Headley. Second, the Red Legs (or anyone else) aren't going to get him unless they give up some serious prospects.

I can't believe you folks are giving up on Frazier, it's a long season.

San Diego wants pitching, think top prospects. If the trading deadline approaches, and a Headley re-up doesn't look probable, that's what the Padres will want.

Old school 1983
05-06-2013, 05:48 PM
Gentlemen, be patient.

First of all, the Friars are making inroads to re-sign Headley. Second, the Red Legs (or anyone else) aren't going to get him unless they give up some serious prospects.

I can't believe you folks are giving up on Frazier, it's a long season.

San Diego wants pitching, think top prospects. If the trading deadline approaches, and a Headley re-up doesn't look probable, that's what the Padres will want.

I know it's early. Way early. I know what I've seen from Todd in previous seasons too. He's production last year was spawned by him being cut and coming in with a chip on his shoulder. Later in the year he was so cold he was frozen. This year he is looking more like the guy who hit 232 in 2011 than the guy who hit in the 270s last year. His D isn't the greatest either. I hope he can pick it up but I have my doubts. I really don't care if you can hit it out if great American pinball machine against subpar pitching. I want guys that give good hard at bats against good pitching. And for Headley I'd start my offer at either cueto bailey or cingrani depending on many factors. Those are some good young pitchers not just AA or A ball garbage.

Vottomatic
05-08-2013, 08:57 AM
I know it's early. Way early. I know what I've seen from Todd in previous seasons too. He's production last year was spawned by him being cut and coming in with a chip on his shoulder. Later in the year he was so cold he was frozen. This year he is looking more like the guy who hit 232 in 2011 than the guy who hit in the 270s last year. His D isn't the greatest either. I hope he can pick it up but I have my doubts. I really don't care if you can hit it out if great American pinball machine against subpar pitching. I want guys that give good hard at bats against good pitching. And for Headley I'd start my offer at either cueto bailey or cingrani depending on many factors. Those are some good young pitchers not just AA or A ball garbage.

Wow. I'm in huge disagreement with you about Frazier.

Frazier is the epitome of an average minor leaguer who has become a better major leaguer. It's very rare to see that.

I don't think he'll ever be more than a .250 hitter, but with the potential to hit 25 HR's. I also think, unlike Jay Bruce, Frazier will survive because the expectations are lower.

There's a reason Todd has several of the longest HR's ever hit at GABP..........dude hits the ball hard nearly every time. But he also knows when to simply put it into play, hit to the right side to move over a runner, or hit a Sac fly to get the runner in. He's willing to do the little things unlike some guys. But his big swing does allow for more K's than usual.

Completely disagree about his defense. Dude has made great strides and is better than average at 3B. And most people I talk to believe this and I think you're in the minority on his defense. He is much improved. And I was concerned about it coming into the season. I'm not anymore.

And his improved defense is a sign of a hard worker. Which probably explains why he went from being an average minor leaguer to a major leaguer. He continues to improve every aspect of his game.

Old school 1983
05-08-2013, 12:41 PM
Wow. I'm in huge disagreement with you about Frazier.

Frazier is the epitome of an average minor leaguer who has become a better major leaguer. It's very rare to see that.

I don't think he'll ever be more than a .250 hitter, but with the potential to hit 25 HR's. I also think, unlike Jay Bruce, Frazier will survive because the expectations are lower.

There's a reason Todd has several of the longest HR's ever hit at GABP..........dude hits the ball hard nearly every time. But he also knows when to simply put it into play, hit to the right side to move over a runner, or hit a Sac fly to get the runner in. He's willing to do the little things unlike some guys. But his big swing does allow for more K's than usual.

Completely disagree about his defense. Dude has made great strides and is better than average at 3B. And most people I talk to believe this and I think you're in the minority on his defense. He is much improved. And I was concerned about it coming into the season. I'm not anymore.

And his improved defense is a sign of a hard worker. Which probably explains why he went from being an average minor leaguer to a major leaguer. He continues to improve every aspect of his game.


The odd thing I find is that most fans I talk to off of this board see my point on Frazier. Maybe I'm stating it in the wrong way. I like Todd. I love his attitude and his hard work. No doubt about that. If the makeup of this team were different, I'd probably be all for him. If the team was made up of high contact guys who lacked power, he'd be a no brainer to be in just for the pop, but this team is made up of the complete opposite. I see cozart, Frazier and Bruce as the most serious feast or famine offenders.

I know a lot of people dog Bruce. He frustrates me to no end too. But contrary to popular belief, he does get some clutch hits. And by what you say about Frazier being a 250 25 hr guy, Bruce is already that and then some. To top it off Bruce is a near elite caliber defender in right and saves runs nearly every game with his glove and arm.

Cozart is a streaky hitter, but he by no means is counted on to be a primary run producer. His defense is near gold glove caliber. It'd be hard pressed to find a better guy than him.

That leads me to Frazier. He is a LESSER version of Bruce. High K low contact with pop. If he maxes out his talent, he is what Bruce is right now with bruce having room to get much better. And that's not taking D into account. Frazier has put in work. No doubting that. But he makes the easy plays look average, the average plays look hard, and the hard plus look near impossible. He sails a lot of his throws too. I see votto pulled back across first a lot. It's going to get him ran over. Todd can work all day long, but he will never be the caliber of 3b that Bruce is in right or cozart is at short. You will never see Frazier make the number of run saving plays that Bruce or cozart do. And when he's in cold mode like right now he doesn't bring anything to the team aside from pop off the bench.

I'm probably going to sound like a jerk about this but if the best thing you can say about a guy is that he works hard, then It is probablt the polite way of saying he leaves more to be desired in his actual performance. Lets look at votto and choo offensively. They work their tails off. But is that the best thing you can say about them offensively? No it isn't. Lets look at choo in center. We say he is a Tireless worker and always put forth effort, but we know that's the kindest thing we can say about him there and there is way more to be desired.

I like Todd. He has a great attitude, works hard, and hits it hard when he died hit it. But there are better defensive options already on this team and when his bat is cold, he doesn't bring anything extra to the field. Even when his bat is not cold, he's way too susceptible to the K like various others I. The lineup who offer the run saving defense Todd doesn't.

Old school 1983
05-08-2013, 01:21 PM
Every description I see on here in defense of Frazier focuses around hard work, lead ship, clubhouse guy, and intangibles. His skills always seem to be a secondary consideration. Sounds like a pretty close description of a bench/platoon type player to me.

REDREAD
05-09-2013, 02:01 PM
That leads me to Frazier. He is a LESSER version of Bruce. High K low contact with pop. If he maxes out his talent, he is what Bruce is right now with bruce having room to get much better. And that's not taking D into account. Frazier has put in work. No doubting that. But he makes the easy plays look average, the average plays look hard, and the hard plus look near impossible. He sails a lot of his throws too. I see votto pulled back across first a lot. It's going to get him ran over. Todd can work all day long, but he will never be the caliber of 3b that Bruce is in right or cozart is at short. You will never see Frazier make the number of run saving plays that Bruce or cozart do. And when he's in cold mode like right now he doesn't bring anything to the team aside from pop off the bench.
.

I hear what you're saying, but most clubs have a guy like Frasier or worse at the #6 slot. He's a complimentary player, not a star. Still, it's very valuable to have a guy like Todd. He helps the team win games over the course of the season.

I agree that the Reds could use another high batting average/OBP guy. That would be great. The Ludwick injury really caused a ribble effect, even though the team has scored a lot of runs relative to everyone else in the league.
If Ludwick is healthy, and Phillips is batting second, then Frasier and Cozart's lower OBP is more tolerable. We have a hole in LF now, plus Hannigan got off to a slow start so the offense just seems worse than it really is. But when you put it in perspective, many teams have the same problem. Not many high OBP guys to go around, especially at 3b and SS. At least Cozart and Frasier can supply good slugging for their positions, and IMO, they both play defense well. Obviously, Cozart is more gifted defensively, but Frasier is fine.

KC2135
05-16-2013, 12:33 PM
Again, I think we have a better or at least more polished version of Billy in Robinson right now. I'm not saying that Billy won't pass him, but I would put money on it that it won't be this year. As far as our 4 hole, right now we have the man who leads the NL in RBI ;). Seriously though just put Robinson in the 2 hole and get Cozart out of there.

Johnny Fan
05-16-2013, 12:40 PM
We have one of the top offensives in baseball and one of the top records...exactly what is wrong?

1869's Original
05-16-2013, 01:07 PM
An awful lot of discussion here.

Number 1: don't rush Hamilton until he's comfortable in center and at AAA - the last thing you want is to put him up against the toughest competition when he isn't quite ready and diminish the confidence he's built up. Patience wit Billy. I don't think he'll even see the bigs in September - there's no need for him with Robinson up.

Number 2: Robinson can almost certainly improve on what Cozart has done in the two hole. He plays good defense, will get on base some, and will steal some bases/score from first on some Votto doubles. Definite improvement. Plus, I believe cozart will perform better at the bottom of the lineup - it allows him to focus on his defense and add some power as the 7 or 8 hitter.

Number 3: Chase Headley is the answer - he boasts the Gold Glove at third, and would effectively give us an all-gold-glove infield with votto, phillips, and cozart (gg quality imo). The man would fit perfectly either before or after votto - he also keeps the outfield open for hamilton when he is ready

Potential Lineup: (for 2014)

LF Choo, L
CF Hamilton, S
1B Votto, L
3B Headley, S
RF Bruce, L
2B Phillips, R
C Mesoraco, R
SS Cozart, R

I think this is a feasible lineup, wouldn't break the bank, wouldn't drain the farm, and benefits the lineup as a whole. Most notably, Phillips protecting Bruce would benefit Jay in a huge way. Not to mention - how do you pitch to anyone from 1-6? This offense would prevent the Reds from stalling like they do now.

I think Headley and Choo could both be signed around 5/75-80 and this team could last too

Old school 1983
05-16-2013, 01:15 PM
An awful lot of discussion here.

Number 1: don't rush Hamilton until he's comfortable in center and at AAA - the last thing you want is to put him up against the toughest competition when he isn't quite ready and diminish the confidence he's built up. Patience wit Billy. I don't think he'll even see the bigs in September - there's no need for him with Robinson up.

Number 2: Robinson can almost certainly improve on what Cozart has done in the two hole. He plays good defense, will get on base some, and will steal some bases/score from first on some Votto doubles. Definite improvement. Plus, I believe cozart will perform better at the bottom of the lineup - it allows him to focus on his defense and add some power as the 7 or 8 hitter.

Number 3: Chase Headley is the answer - he boasts the Gold Glove at third, and would effectively give us an all-gold-glove infield with votto, phillips, and cozart (gg quality imo). The man would fit perfectly either before or after votto - he also keeps the outfield open for hamilton when he is ready

Potential Lineup: (for 2014)

LF Choo, L
CF Hamilton, S
1B Votto, L
3B Headley, S
RF Bruce, L
2B Phillips, R
C Mesoraco, R
SS Cozart, R

I think this is a feasible lineup, wouldn't break the bank, wouldn't drain the farm, and benefits the lineup as a whole. Most notably, Phillips protecting Bruce would benefit Jay in a huge way. Not to mention - how do you pitch to anyone from 1-6? This offense would prevent the Reds from stalling like they do now.

I think Headley and Choo could both be signed around 5/75-80 and this team could last too

Headley to me is the key piece this team is missing. I was saying bring up billy bc it'd force dustys had to bat him two. I'd like Robinson there now but dusty well is dusty. The way Hamilton is hearing up at AAA could make things interesting though if the two hole woes continue.

KC2135
05-16-2013, 01:27 PM
Headley to me is the key piece this team is missing. I was saying bring up billy bc it'd force dustys had to bat him two. I'd like Robinson there now but dusty well is dusty. The way Hamilton is hearing up at AAA could make things interesting though if the two hole woes continue.

You're right about Dusty being Dusty

goreds2
05-27-2013, 09:08 PM
Bring him up to play left field and bat Choo second.

RedlegJake
05-27-2013, 09:26 PM
I will say it again. The Padres have no reason whatever to trade Headley without a kings ransom in return. I don't believe he is worth it. The Reds after all would not be the only interested team. The Cards could offer Freese and a couple high quality prospects easily. We'd be outbid or forced to pay too much. I sure hope Walt explores the possibilty (never know unless ya make an offer)but I trust his common sense to walk away if the price escalates to stupid territory.

Old school 1983
05-27-2013, 10:52 PM
I will say it again. The Padres have no reason whatever to trade Headley without a kings ransom in return. I don't believe he is worth it. The Reds after all would not be the only interested team. The Cards could offer Freese and a couple high quality prospects easily. We'd be outbid or forced to pay too much. I sure hope Walt explores the possibilty (never know unless ya make an offer)but I trust his common sense to walk away if the price escalates to stupid territory.

Forget Headley. If billy plays well enough at AAA then he should come up. Idk why Headley is seen as so expensive but Bautista is seen as a real target. He makes more and I'm sure the jays would want a huge return for him. I think he'd at least be worth looking into. Not a trade for at all costs. That's stupid to do with anyone. Why would the cards want Headley anyway? Everyone here thinks his OPS and power numbers just aren't high enough and his last year may have been a fluke or PED related. Lets just see which aging left fielder we can get so we can keep quite possibly the worst defensive cf in the league in cf.

Don Cameron
05-28-2013, 09:18 AM
I laugh and chuckle when I see and read trade proposals for this guy or that guy to perfect the Reds batting order. Bautista? Headley? Come on. Really?

Who do we give up for these gems? Corcino? Stevenson? Cingrani? Hamilton? Or, are the other GM's in baseball just outright Reds fans and willing to trade middle of the line-up guys to the Reds for minor league role players and or late twenties second year players?

Appreciate this team for what it is. Frazier and Cozart are average major league baseball players, but they get the job done. Will they win silver slugger awards? Probably not, but they are cheap and they function.

Could we have a better two hole hitter? Would Paul and Robinson make better two spot hitters? Perhaps. But Baker is a player's manager and he will not give up on his plan or his vision when they have only played 50 games and when they are on the heels of the Cardinals for the best record in the National League.

Let this team play out. Let Jocketty find and/or develop that left fielder. This team will go far on its pitching staff, both now and in the future.

Chasing the power hitters of below .500 teams is an exercise in futility which will cripple the farm system of this team.

Don Cameron
Peace, Love, Dope-- Now get the hell out.

coachpipe
05-28-2013, 09:21 AM
Bring him up to play left field and bat Choo second.

? umm no. I wouldnt even think about bringing him up. But then move choo out of the lead off? Why would you do that? just because hamilton is fast? Okay dusty. you arent fooling anyone anymore. Nice to see you participating in the Redszone though

Old school 1983
05-28-2013, 09:48 AM
I laugh and chuckle when I see and read trade proposals for this guy or that guy to perfect the Reds batting order. Bautista? Headley? Come on. Really?

Who do we give up for these gems? Corcino? Stevenson? Cingrani? Hamilton? Or, are the other GM's in baseball just outright Reds fans and willing to trade middle of the line-up guys to the Reds for minor league role players and or late twenties second year players?

Appreciate this team for what it is. Frazier and Cozart are average major league baseball players, but they get the job done. Will they win silver slugger awards? Probably not, but they are cheap and they function.

Could we have a better two hole hitter? Would Paul and Robinson make better two spot hitters? Perhaps. But Baker is a player's manager and he will not give up on his plan or his vision when they have only played 50 games and when they are on the heels of the Cardinals for the best record in the National League.

Let this team play out. Let Jocketty find and/or develop that left fielder. This team will go far on its pitching staff, both now and in the future.

Chasing the power hitters of below .500 teams is an exercise in futility which will cripple the farm system of this team.

Don Cameron
Peace, Love, Dope-- Now get the hell out.

I'm really not thinking it'd cripple the farm system or the big league club if you do it correctly and pass if the asking price gets too high. But if a trade like that were to happen it'd be fun to see the whining on here after.

I think jocketty found our left fielder for the rest of this year. His name is shin soo choo but for some odd reason he needs to play center.

In reality I think this is how it plays out. If Hamilton can continue improving jocketty may test the market for third basemen. Maybe go after a veteran rental type Michael young, or see if he can nab and aging star like ramirez from the brewers. If Hamilton doesn't seem ready he probably goes for a left fielder. And also i think he ought to look At lefty relievers. I think this leaves the team defensively vulnerable in center and with little speed in the lineup but what do I know I'm just a guy who dreams big for the reds and wants them to try to make a deal for a star.

For the record Hamilton cingrani corcino and Stephenson are pretty far from minor league role players. Also Romano and Cisco in Dayton look like they have upside. Even if you look at the reds roster Mez could be an intriguing trade piece because really he's never been able to develop much past prospect status in my mind. Also, while I think it'd not be the smartest move a guy like bailey could be used in a trade if Walt doesn't think he has a chance to resign him. Leake also has looked great lately and has value. So the reds have more to offer than minor league role players and late twenties second year guys. It just all depends on the level of risk Walt wants to take.

Old school 1983
05-28-2013, 09:58 AM
? umm no. I wouldnt even think about bringing him up. But then move choo out of the lead off? Why would you do that? just because hamilton is fast? Okay dusty. you arent fooling anyone anymore. Nice to see you participating in the Redszone though

I'd bat him second. But for whatever reason everyone thinks that billy just won't be ready this year. If his performance denotes he should be called up, do it. Put him in center and choo in left. Leave choo batting first though. Idk why that's even be in question.

MillerTime58
05-28-2013, 11:08 AM
I'd bat him second. But for whatever reason everyone thinks that billy just won't be ready this year. If his performance denotes he should be called up, do it. Put him in center and choo in left. Leave choo batting first though. Idk why that's even be in question.Then Choo can't lead off anymore, it'd have to be Billy since he's in CF. Choo in LF has to bat 6th or 7th.

Don Cameron
05-28-2013, 11:21 AM
My point being is this--

You are not going to get a Headley/Stanton/Bautista type player unless you give up a LOT. It will cost AT THE VERY LEAST...Cingrani or Stevenson, probably Frazier and AT LEAST one more top tier minor league caliber player.

To mention or pretend a trade would take place without a fleecing of the top young minor league pitching prospects and some major league players is ridiculous.

Choo will remain in center field. He was given that position in spring training. Robinson and Heisey are better center fielders, but Baker is a player's manger and believes in static line-ups both offensively and defensively, much to the fans' chagrin, but the players liking.

Choo will NEVER be Drew Stubbs, Eric Davis, or Cesar Geronimo--but he is, at the very least an 2002- 2006 aging Ken Griffey Jr out there, and he will remain there through this year until he takes his talents to a large market from 2014 through 2019--depending on which city will shell out the most money for a Scott Boras player. (I am banking on the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, and possibly Seattle.)

Hamilton will be brought up in September, along with (depending on innings thrown and injury) Cingrani.

I agree that Michael Young would be an interesting addition, IF Votto or Frazier go down with an injury. I think he could be had for marginal minor league player--depending on his contract, etc.

The only MAJOR thing the Reds need is another left hander in the bullpen. Baker's reluctance to bring in Parra in the eighth inning against Giambi, Borne, and Kipnis coming up yesterday (and to not even having him warm up), really tells you all you need to know about Parra.

The Reds will NOT trade Bailey, Leake, Latos or Cueto until at LEAST July of 2015.

Basically what this off-season will include--Arroyo and Choo walk away from the Reds (turning down lower than market offers from Cincinnati) The Reds will use that money to pay the arbitration increases of Latos, Bailey, Leake, Chapman, Hanigan, Heisey, Simon, LeCure, and Paul.

This team can stay together, realistically, through 2016, before they all hit free agency. Which is why you CANNOT trade ANY decent STARTING pitching in the minor leagues. Best case scenario will be that the Reds can convince Cueto and one of Leake, Latos, or Bailey to stay beyond 2016 and allow Corcino, Cingrani, and Stephenson to step up to the plate.

Don Cameron
A cheese lover

Old school 1983
05-28-2013, 11:34 AM
My point being is this--

You are not going to get a Headley/Stanton/Bautista type player unless you give up a LOT. It will cost AT THE VERY LEAST...Cingrani or Stevenson, probably Frazier and AT LEAST one more top tier minor league caliber player.

To mention or pretend a trade would take place without a fleecing of the top young minor league pitching prospects and some major league players is ridiculous.

Choo will remain in center field. He was given that position in spring training. Robinson and Heisey are better center fielders, but Baker is a player's manger and believes in static line-ups both offensively and defensively, much to the fans' chagrin, but the players liking.

Choo will NEVER be Drew Stubbs, Eric Davis, or Cesar Geronimo--but he is, at the very least an 2002- 2006 aging Ken Griffey Jr out there, and he will remain there through this year until he takes his talents to a large market from 2014 through 2019--depending on which city will shell out the most money for a Scott Boras player. (I am banking on the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, and possibly Seattle.)

Hamilton will be brought up in September, along with (depending on innings thrown and injury) Cingrani.

I agree that Michael Young would be an interesting addition, IF Votto or Frazier go down with an injury. I think he could be had for marginal minor league player--depending on his contract, etc.

The only MAJOR thing the Reds need is another left hander in the bullpen. Baker's reluctance to bring in Parra in the eighth inning against Giambi, Borne, and Kipnis coming up yesterday (and to not even having him warm up), really tells you all you need to know about Parra.

The Reds will NOT trade Bailey, Leake, Latos or Cueto until at LEAST July of 2015.

Basically what this off-season will include--Arroyo and Choo walk away from the Reds (turning down lower than market offers from Cincinnati) The Reds will use that money to pay the arbitration increases of Latos, Bailey, Leake, Chapman, Hanigan, Heisey, Simon, LeCure, and Paul.

This team can stay together, realistically, through 2016, before they all hit free agency. Which is why you CANNOT trade ANY decent STARTING pitching in the minor leagues. Best case scenario will be that the Reds can convince Cueto and one of Leake, Latos, or Bailey to stay beyond 2016 and allow Corcino, Cingrani, and Stephenson to step up to the plate.

Don Cameron
A cheese lover

Headley in my mind is a dream situation. Any of those guys would cost a ton and you'd have to weigh the present with the future in any such deal. Id really like the reds to not just paint themselves in a corner and look strictly just for left fielders. If a good enough third basemen was acquired, and billy was able to come up or ludwick comeback decentish. Then I think you could go choo in center and a ludwick in left perhaps with a platoon partner or Hamilton in center and choo in left. I get the thinking that choo was brought in to play center but that was before ludwick was injured, and injuries require some flexibility.

A guy that would be intriguing to me is Aramis ramirez. He's no longer a super star but he's by no means done. So hed cost but not a fortune. He plays for an in division team, so it'd make a trade tricky, but the brew crew isn't exactly in it. It'd be an interesting piece to explore.

As far as Hamilton I'd like to see him brought up before September so he'd be plsyoff eligible much like chapman in 2010

I do enjoy your posts. You always make good points from what I've seen and are always levelheaded. I like that as well as the quotes you put in your signature. Always entertaining.