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View Full Version : Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each



Old school 1983
05-06-2013, 04:10 PM
Mods feel free to combine this with other threads....

Anyway I see all kinds of Stanton, Headley, Fowler trade ideas on here, so I decided to make a thread for all comers and give my opinions of each.

Ill start with big league players I could see the reds partings ways with. To me it more or less comes down to is this player necessary or is he a nice piece to have and is more of a want than a need. As well as piece acquired in a deal.

Mike Leake: 5th starter. Cingrani could take his place.

Cingrani: top three reasons he could go. Latos, Cueto, and Bailey. Three ace level guys already. I'd be sure of rotation health before I traded him

Todd Frazier: Averagish D. Low plate discipline and average contact skills. Great power. Could be replaced by Hannahan who has a better glove and possibly a chance at a higher obp. His power could be expendable if a 4 hitter is obtained.

Devin Mesoraco: I like the guy, but dusty doesn't seem to. Still young and has definitely plus side at a premium position. Hanigan could catch.

JJ Hoover: with Marshall broxton and chapman, Hoover is a nice piece but could be expendable in the right deal.

Homer bailey: may or may not want to stay in Cincinnati. Could become less of a need if cingrani steps up. Could bring a haul.

Johnny cueto: ace. No question. But has recent injuries. IMO has maxed out his talent and latos and bailey will surpass him in the next year or so.

Jay Bruce: I wouldn't trade Bruce unless we know we have choo locked up long term or if the player we get in return is equal or superior to jay defensively or if we had already acquired a righty power bat and it was a move to get choo out of center.

Target one Stanton: what would be a pragmatic approach to acquiring his massive power? I've seen every trade idea known to man for him. I think the best bet to go in acquiring him and not drain the farm would be a three way trade a la the choo trade where we give pieces and trade a guy to another team and maybe Miami gives them another piece and they give pieces to Miami too. I think if we started with cingrani and Mez/Frazier it'd get the marlins attention. Maybe flip Frazier/Mez Hoover or prospects to another team and see what they'd throw in towards the fish or offer those some combo of those guys and minor leaguers, probably Bham. But in reality if we didnt want to drain the minors any deal for Stanton would have to start at cingrani in my mind. When the marlins firesale they generally want pitching in return. So for Stanton some sort of three way deal or drain the minors and pray we can rebuild it. I just see him costing way too much and destroying the minor league pipeline that we've built for the past decade.

Chase Headley: my favorite target of the group. Good obp guy. Great D and switch hitter. In a perfect world I'd offer cueto straight up. Or a Frazier leake combo. But in reality neither deal would probably fly. So lets look at it two ways. First off to trade Homer or not to? If you go the homer route I'd offer straight up since they have similar contract lengths and each would be going to a more productive stadium for their given skillsets, theyd be likely to resign. So I think straight up or with a decent minor league sweetener homer could get him. So if you don't want to deal homer, you'd have to go cingrani, Frazier, maybe even Hoover and a decent minor league sweetener in my mind. Either way you're going to have to give up a starter you'd rather not want to, but then again you have to give to receive. I don't think the price would be as high as Headley as on Stanton.

Dexter Fowler: I don't think I'd go after fowler unless a right handed power bat is acquired first, or someone steps up on the team to that spot. But if one of those occurs. Offer Bruce and a Cisco, Romano, Garret or maybe corcino (pick one) level pitching prospect and I think the Rockies may go for it. Shift choo to right. I'd not trade Bruce unless I knew choo was signed long term or if a power righty bat was signed first to offset the loss in the player we were getting back played great D and got choo out of center.

On Bham: I'd try to be reluctant in trading him. He has sooo much speed. Choo is poor in center and if he steps up in AAA after a bad start he'd be a great In house option to shift choo to a corner. IMO, while I'd love to have Stanton, he'd cost too much and would handicap the outfield D.

Ok just for fun: lets go video game crazy and acquire all three.

Trade one: Homer and Frazier to SD for Headley. Team is solid after trade.

Trade two: Bruce and corcino to Colorado for Fowler. Choo to right fowler to center. Team is great after trade. Bordering unfair.

Trade Three: we drain the minor league ship minus cingrani for Stanton.

Hamilton, Stephenson, Travieso, Hrod, Lutz, you name em they go.

At that point the series may just be an after thought.

Goose1701
05-07-2013, 04:08 AM
I don't know if the Reds would have the pieces to get a Stanton trade done. Yeah a 3 way trade would help in that regard, but three ways are insanely difficult to pull off.

The three best farm systems in baseball I'd say right now belong to St.Louis(ugh), Texas, and Seattle. I figure he's going to one of those teams(hopefully not St.Louis).

Vottomatic
05-07-2013, 08:59 AM
The Ludwick contract really puts a kink in things. I didn't really like it but understood he was kind of the only option they could sign to play LF.

You really can't trade for an everyday LFer and continue to pay Ludwick.

Reds farm system is strange in that they went from being a pitching-poor system for last gazillion years, to an organization focused on pitching, while not producing many more hitters since Votto, Bruce, etc.

I have no interest in Headley. He can stay in Blazing Saddles.

I think Stanton really solidifies the cleanup spot, and would make Dusty happy with his lefty, righty, lefty thing he's got going on.

I'm really lost on what is up with Bruce's downfall. A real headscratcher. Throw out the stats..........he looks really lost at the plate........to the point he looks like he's overthinking everything.

And even Votto doesn't look like Votto, even though his stats say otherwise. Watch him at the plate.........he's still not in sync. Which is kind of scary thinking about if his numbers are good now and he's not in sync.......what will his numbers be like when he finally feels comfortable? I really don't question Joey. One of the few.

BP is quietly having a good season. He's the new Tony Perez.........Mr. Clutch.

I hate Cozart batting second. He just doesn't hit line drives. Ground balls or pop ups seem to be his forte'.

As much as I ragged on Mesoraco, I was hoping he'd prove me wrong and really step it up offensively. And I remain disappointed in him.

If there's a silver lining, it's that this team is 18-15, 3 games over .500, and they don't look like they're in sync at all with eachother, aside from a few.

Frazier is Frazier to me. He's probably what Bruce is without the high expectations. A .250 hitter who might hit 25 HR's. Todd seems to be a little more clutch to me. But maybe I just see his good hits though. Hmmm.

If this team could keep Frazier, Cozart, and Mez in the 6, 7, and 8 holes.........and then find either a cleanup hitter, which would move BP back to the 2-hole........or find a 2-hole hitter with some bat skills and high OBP.........I'd be fine keeping BP in the 4-hole.

I mentioned Denorfia a while back and that thread became a negative nelly. High OBP with decent bat skills. Would definitely be a lot cheaper than a Stanton. Bat him 2nd until Ludwick comes back to be the cleanup hitter. If he doesn't make it back, you keep things the same......Choo, Denorfia, Votto, BP, Bruce.

My dream scenario would be:
1. Sign Choo to an extension. Move him to RF, his natural position.
2. Trade Chapman, Corcino, Yorman to the Fish for Stanton. Stick him at cleanup and in LF. He may not be now, but the last time I looked, Stanton had the highest OBP on the Fish.
3. Trade Bruce, Leake, Lutz, to the Rockies for Fowler. Fowler is a switch hitter, only 27. Stick him in CF and bat him 2nd or 5th. Who knows. But he has a high career OBP and has speed. And he is showing some power this season with 7 HR's already.

And with Choo signed, if you have to include Billy in any of these trade scenarios, I'd do it.

Some salary relief with Arroyo ($12M) and Bruce ($12M) off the books next season.

RF Choo (LH) - high OBP
2B Phillips (RH)
1B Votto (LH) - high OBP
LF Stanton (RH) - good OBP
CF Fowler (SH) - high OBP
3B Frazier (RH) - still cheap
SS Cozart (RH) - still cheap
C Mesoraco (RH) - still cheap

I'd consider flip flopping Fowler to the 2-hole and BP to the 5-hole. I'd even consider keeping BP in the 4-hole and batting Stanton 5th. Whatever works best. But get those high OBP guys at the top of the lineup.

Cingrani moves into the 5th starter role. Cross your fingers he can pull it off. Still have depth at triple A with Galarraga, Reynolds, Villareal, and Sharky Rogers.

Hoover moves into the Closer role. Broxton can share duties too.

This team has got to stop wasting great starting pitching, and score some runs.

Old school 1983
05-07-2013, 09:10 AM
I don't know if the Reds would have the pieces to get a Stanton trade done. Yeah a 3 way trade would help in that regard, but three ways are insanely difficult to pull off.

The three best farm systems in baseball I'd say right now belong to St.Louis(ugh), Texas, and Seattle. I figure he's going to one of those teams(hopefully not St.Louis).

That was kind of my point. In order to get him we'd have to give up young major league talent, which we probably won't, or completely bust the farm system that we have worked so hard to build. I'd rather continue the pipeline of players from the minors that we have worked so hard to build than spend it all on Stanton, when there are pieces out there that would cost you, but not break you.

I think Headley would be a good target. No offense to Todd but Headley is just simply better. He'd fit nicely into the four spot, would allow for a ludwick comeback or billy breakout, would put Phillips back to the two spot and would hit for power while protecting votto. Idk what the price would be on him. If the deal started with cueto or homer which probably won't happen then I'd see other teams being hard pressed to match and still be able to field a good staff. I know cingrani is the Flavor of the month but to acquire a truly elite level bat like Headley or Stanton we'd have to start there. Giving up chapman is assinine. So is giving up billy unless there's a deal for a real center fielder in the works with a choo reup to boot. So to get Headley I think cingrani could get talks started. After that we'd probably have to put in a younger major league player. I'd go Frazier. Headley takes his spot anyway. I'd use Arredondo ondrusek and yes Hoover as sweetners. They'll probably want Hoover, and yes I'd pay that. After that we'd be talking prospects. I wouldn't go Hamilton on Headley period. I'd like to go with a Cisco Romano maybe Garrett level prospect. I think that'd get the deal done. Cingrani. Frazier Hoover. And prob two of Cisco/Romano/Garrett. I could even see throwing in a lamarre or soto too.

jhu1321
05-07-2013, 09:15 AM
Please make it stop.

coachpipe
05-07-2013, 09:28 AM
I think stanton is a more of a fantasy trade than anything. Honestly, at this point, I think they all are.

but thinking about it, how much would stanton help this team? The guy is a great player and all, but his defense is terrible, he is injury prone, and he strikes out A LOT. so with cozart, bruce and stanton the strikeouts would pile up and the Defense in left and center wouldnt be the greatest.

I would be extremely surprised if the reds go after anyone to be honest. Actually im just going to go out on a limb and call it now. The reds will not make any big name trades this year UNLESS they are so far out of the division race and become sellers, which i dont see happening

Old school 1983
05-07-2013, 09:36 AM
The Ludwick contract really puts a kink in things. I didn't really like it but understood he was kind of the only option they could sign to play LF.

You really can't trade for an everyday LFer and continue to pay Ludwick.

Reds farm system is strange in that they went from being a pitching-poor system for last gazillion years, to an organization focused on pitching, while not producing many more hitters since Votto, Bruce, etc.

I have no interest in Headley. He can stay in Blazing Saddles.

I think Stanton really solidifies the cleanup spot, and would make Dusty happy with his lefty, righty, lefty thing he's got going on.

I'm really lost on what is up with Bruce's downfall. A real headscratcher. Throw out the stats..........he looks really lost at the plate........to the point he looks like he's overthinking everything.

And even Votto doesn't look like Votto, even though his stats say otherwise. Watch him at the plate.........he's still not in sync. Which is kind of scary thinking about if his numbers are good now and he's not in sync.......what will his numbers be like when he finally feels comfortable? I really don't question Joey. One of the few.

BP is quietly having a good season. He's the new Tony Perez.........Mr. Clutch.

I hate Cozart batting second. He just doesn't hit line drives. Ground balls or pop ups seem to be his forte'.

As much as I ragged on Mesoraco, I was hoping he'd prove me wrong and really step it up offensively. And I remain disappointed in him.

If there's a silver lining, it's that this team is 18-15, 3 games over .500, and they don't look like they're in sync at all with eachother, aside from a few.

Frazier is Frazier to me. He's probably what Bruce is without the high expectations. A .250 hitter who might hit 25 HR's. Todd seems to be a little more clutch to me. But maybe I just see his good hits though. Hmmm.

If this team could keep Frazier, Cozart, and Mez in the 6, 7, and 8 holes.........and then find either a cleanup hitter, which would move BP back to the 2-hole........or find a 2-hole hitter with some bat skills and high OBP.........I'd be fine keeping BP in the 4-hole.

I mentioned Denorfia a while back and that thread became a negative nelly. High OBP with decent bat skills. Would definitely be a lot cheaper than a Stanton. Bat him 2nd until Ludwick comes back to be the cleanup hitter. If he doesn't make it back, you keep things the same......Choo, Denorfia, Votto, BP, Bruce.

My dream scenario would be:
1. Sign Choo to an extension. Move him to RF, his natural position.
2. Trade Chapman, Corcino, Yorman to the Fish for Stanton. Stick him at cleanup and in LF. He may not be now, but the last time I looked, Stanton had the highest OBP on the Fish.
3. Trade Bruce, Leake, Lutz, to the Rockies for Fowler. Fowler is a switch hitter, only 27. Stick him in CF and bat him 2nd or 5th. Who knows. But he has a high career OBP and has speed. And he is showing some power this season with 7 HR's already.

And with Choo signed, if you have to include Billy in any of these trade scenarios, I'd do it.

Some salary relief with Arroyo ($12M) and Bruce ($12M) off the books next season.

RF Choo (LH) - high OBP
2B Phillips (RH)
1B Votto (LH) - high OBP
LF Stanton (RH) - good OBP
CF Fowler (SH) - high OBP
3B Frazier (RH) - still cheap
SS Cozart (RH) - still cheap
C Mesoraco (RH) - still cheap

I'd consider flip flopping Fowler to the 2-hole and BP to the 5-hole. I'd even consider keeping BP in the 4-hole and batting Stanton 5th. Whatever works best. But get those high OBP guys at the top of the lineup.

Cingrani moves into the 5th starter role. Cross your fingers he can pull it off. Still have depth at triple A with Galarraga, Reynolds, Villareal, and Sharky Rogers.

Hoover moves into the Closer role. Broxton can share duties too.

This team has got to stop wasting great starting pitching, and score some runs.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti Stanton by any means. I just don't think it's a realistic deal. There are other farm systems way more stocked than ours, and all we would do if we got into a bidding war was blow our system out of prospects. I know getting fowler wound be great, I love the guy, but I'd error on the side of caution and not use billy in a trade before i had fowler. I love the thought, but both of those trades hinge on each other. If we could only acquire fowler then we have no cleanup hitter. If we only acquire Stanton then we have no true center fielder anywhere in the system honestly for this year or the future.

And really that's why I see Headley as the best option. He'd cost you but not break you. He's not a rental. He'd improve the team D at third And still leave the option open for a ludwick return or improved D in center with a billy breakout in the minors. I know Stanton has way more power and someone compared him to wilt playing on an 8 foot hoop if he was in GABP. But remember. Wilt was the best player, but the celtics won. Team is the key. Don't be afraid to trade guys, but at the same time don't give away too much. We saw how bad the pen was hurting with Marshall gone imagine with chapman out, plus we'd lose the ability to maybe start him next year. Closers are not over rated. The save stat is. It's just not about save numbers it's about psychological effect and the setup of the bullpen behind him in the earlier innings.

Your assessment of the players seems pretty good. I know Frazier does good things. I'm not completely down on him. I just don't think he's as good as people believe. People dog Bruce so much for his Ks they fail to see he gets clutch hits too. Choosing between the two similar guys I'd go Bruce because of the age his D and his potential is still high and he has show. He can produce.

With Mez I think he's showing a better approach this year. I do notice on the outside pitch he is dipping that back shoulder like he did on everything last year. I think he just needs consistent time. I don't get why he is t getting it with corky there

Old school 1983
05-07-2013, 09:40 AM
I think stanton is a more of a fantasy trade than anything. Honestly, at this point, I think they all are.

but thinking about it, how much would stanton help this team? The guy is a great player and all, but his defense is terrible, he is injury prone, and he strikes out A LOT. so with cozart, bruce and stanton the strikeouts would pile up and the Defense in left and center wouldnt be the greatest.

I would be extremely surprised if the reds go after anyone to be honest. Actually im just going to go out on a limb and call it now. The reds will not make any big name trades this year UNLESS they are so far out of the division race and become sellers, which i dont see happening

That's part of the reason I see Headley helping more. He brings more than a bat and the price tag would be lower. The reds really don't have a big recent history of huge moves at the deadline, so I see where you are coming from. Walt dies though. It will be interesting. I'm not quite ready to call it yet. But if we look back at the past two World Series champs, they both made moves at the deadline to address weaknesses. I think the reds need to do the same.

Old school 1983
05-07-2013, 09:55 AM
Please make it stop.

The Stanton talk? Yeah. It'd be a huge overpay and a system draining trade. We could probably not match the rangers if they went profar or the cards taveras in a deal for him.

Old school 1983
05-09-2013, 01:30 PM
One factor I didn't consider in the Stanton trade senerio is Ricky Nolasco. Miami would love to dump his salary, and if he could come back to Cincinnati as pitching depth I could see a trade becoming somewhat realistic.

Maybe

To Miami:
Leake
Cingrani
Lutz or Frazier
Heisey
Travieso
Romano/Cisco

To reds:
Stanton
Nolasco
Ruggiano

It's solve pitching depth issues brought up by the trade, get us Stanton and a desperately needed righty bench bat in ruggiano. He'd also be a good insurance policy if the injury bug bit Stanton.

Red Raindog
05-09-2013, 02:07 PM
Please make it stop.

I like to fantasize about winning Powerball.

This is the baseball version IMO

Old school 1983
05-09-2013, 02:29 PM
Yes it is. It makes it fun. We know its probably not going to happen but it's cool to sit back and dream.

Beltway
05-09-2013, 03:15 PM
I don't know if the Reds would have the pieces to get a Stanton trade done. Yeah a 3 way trade would help in that regard, but three ways are insanely difficult to pull off.

The three best farm systems in baseball I'd say right now belong to St.Louis(ugh), Texas, and Seattle. I figure he's going to one of those teams(hopefully not St.Louis).
I think Texas is the most likely destination for Stanton, given that they're probably looking to replace Hamilton's bat. With Taveras in their system and Holliday in one corner OF spot, I seriously doubt St. Louis makes a move for him. Texas has a surplus at SS. Profar and a couple other decent/good minor league prospects for Stanton seems like a possibility to me.

Old school 1983
05-09-2013, 03:22 PM
I think Texas is the most likely destination for Stanton, given that they're probably looking to replace Hamilton's bat. With Taveras in their system and Holliday in one corner OF spot, I seriously doubt St. Louis makes a move for him. Texas has a surplus at SS. Profar and a couple other decent/good minor league prospects for Stanton seems like a possibility to me.

I could totally see that. The only way I can see the reds in play is if its a three way deal, or the reds take on nolascos salary which might not be a bad thing because we could use the depth. I'm sure that trade would require good pitching to go.

TheBigLebowski
05-09-2013, 03:41 PM
That's part of the reason I see Headley helping more. He brings more than a bat and the price tag would be lower. The reds really don't have a big recent history of huge moves at the deadline, so I see where you are coming from. Walt dies though. It will be interesting. I'm not quite ready to call it yet. But if we look back at the past two World Series champs, they both made moves at the deadline to address weaknesses. I think the reds need to do the same.
Walt dies???

texasdave
05-09-2013, 03:51 PM
Walt dies???

I am sure it means something like 'Walt is willing to roll the die'. Or something similar. :)

Old school 1983
05-09-2013, 04:32 PM
Walt dies???

A typo I did not notice. Probably and iPhone auto correct.

TheBigLebowski
05-09-2013, 05:28 PM
A typo I did not notice. Probably and iPhone auto correct.

I knew it was a typo....not that the idea of Walt dying is funny, but the context therein...i chuckled.

REDREAD
05-10-2013, 10:25 AM
Well, I would take any of Stanton, Fowler or Headley at the right price of course. I think everyone would.

Headley --- if he is determined to go the FA route after this year, maybe SD decides to get the best return they can at the trade deadline. I have no idea what other teams need a rental 3b, but on the other hand, Headley upgrades just about everyone at 3b.. so there will be some demand. No way would I consider trading Cueto for him (as proposed in the original post). I guess it depends on how the offense is working at the trade deadline, and what the prognoisis is for Ludwick.
I would really hate to trade either BHam or Cingrani for a one year rental. Those guys are a big part of the future right now. As soon as next year, the team might need them (and no other guys in house will be ready for CF or SP next year).

The point about Ludwick being signed next year (someone else brought this up) is huge too. Although we could argue that Fowler could be picked up and Billy H could be parked in AAA an extra year. Or perhaps either Billy or Fowler would be traded after the season.

The Reds have the pieces to get Stanton, I think, if the Marlins want to deal him.
Of course, other teams have better farm systems than the Reds, but the market values prospects extremely high now. The high level prospects simply are not traded as often as they used to be. I guess the point is, other clubs will be just as hestitant to trade their top prospect.. just like we would be hestitant to trade Cingrani (IMO, he easily is the #1 Reds prospect now. I still like BHam, but Cingrani is ahead of Billly H).

Old school 1983
05-10-2013, 10:37 AM
Well, I would take any of Stanton, Fowler or Headley at the right price of course. I think everyone would.

Headley --- if he is determined to go the FA route after this year, maybe SD decides to get the best return they can at the trade deadline. I have no idea what other teams need a rental 3b, but on the other hand, Headley upgrades just about everyone at 3b.. so there will be some demand. No way would I consider trading Cueto for him (as proposed in the original post). I guess it depends on how the offense is working at the trade deadline, and what the prognoisis is for Ludwick.
I would really hate to trade either BHam or Cingrani for a one year rental. Those guys are a big part of the future right now. As soon as next year, the team might need them (and no other guys in house will be ready for CF or SP next year).

The point about Ludwick being signed next year (someone else brought this up) is huge too. Although we could argue that Fowler could be picked up and Billy H could be parked in AAA an extra year. Or perhaps either Billy or Fowler would be traded after the season.

The Reds have the pieces to get Stanton, I think, if the Marlins want to deal him.
Of course, other teams have better farm systems than the Reds, but the market values prospects extremely high now. The high level prospects simply are not traded as often as they used to be. I guess the point is, other clubs will be just as hestitant to trade their top prospect.. just like we would be hestitant to trade Cingrani (IMO, he easily is the #1 Reds prospect now. I still like BHam, but Cingrani is ahead of Billly H).

Maybe I am mistaken, but I believe that Headley is signed through next season as well. I'd never give up cueto for a rental. And the cueto idea was for if the reds think they have a shot at signing latos or bailey long term. I see them improving, and while cueto is an ace I don't see him getting much more out if his game, not that it is bad.

As far as Stanton goes I could see the marlins attaching him to Ricky Nolasco in a trade, which may not be a bad thing for the reds because it would allow them to move pitching without a huge hit and it might bring the actual price in prospects for the trade down. I could see it going like this:

To Miami:
Leake
Cingrani
Frazier
Heisey
Lutz
Travieso
Cisco or Romano

To reds:
Stanton
Nolasco
Ruggiano
Maybe Polanco

That seems like a type of trade that could go down based on the marlins and reds trading history. The marlins would save money and get quality in return. The reds would get pieces they need but would not be parting ways with anyone that would create a hole in the current lineup.

Leake and Cingranis spots get filled by cueto and Nolasco, heisey by ruggiano, and fraziers by Polanco, if not by hannahan and Hrod platoon. The rest of the guys in the trade would offer high upside with the marlins, but are years away from contributing to the reds or are blocked at their positions.

Vottomatic
05-10-2013, 01:27 PM
Maybe I am mistaken, but I believe that Headley is signed through next season as well. I'd never give up cueto for a rental. And the cueto idea was for if the reds think they have a shot at signing latos or bailey long term. I see them improving, and while cueto is an ace I don't see him getting much more out if his game, not that it is bad.

As far as Stanton goes I could see the marlins attaching him to Ricky Nolasco in a trade, which may not be a bad thing for the reds because it would allow them to move pitching without a huge hit and it might bring the actual price in prospects for the trade down. I could see it going like this:

To Miami:
Leake
Cingrani
Frazier
Heisey
Lutz
Travieso
Cisco or Romano

To reds:
Stanton
Nolasco
Ruggiano
Maybe Polanco

That seems like a type of trade that could go down based on the marlins and reds trading history. The marlins would save money and get quality in return. The reds would get pieces they need but would not be parting ways with anyone that would create a hole in the current lineup.

Leake and Cingranis spots get filled by cueto and Nolasco, heisey by ruggiano, and fraziers by Polanco, if not by hannahan and Hrod platoon. The rest of the guys in the trade would offer high upside with the marlins, but are years away from contributing to the reds or are blocked at their positions.

Meh. Won't happen. Reds are adding too much payroll. Stanton is under control for awhile. Sure, he gets a raise in arbitration, but not $10M or $20M. Nolasco comes with enough salary to kill the deal. But he and Polanco are FA's after 2013. I don't see the Reds giving up their long term answer to 3B for a 37 year old. Plus the Reds are already paying Hannahan as backup to 3B.

Neither team is looking to take much salary, if any.

Per baseball-reference.com......

Polanco, 37 years old, $2.75M in 2013, FA in 2014
Nolasco, 30 years old, $11.5M in 2013, FA in 2014
Ruggiano, 31 years old, minimum
Stanton, 23 years old, minimum, arbitration in 2014

Not sure why the Reds need Ruggiano when they already have Heisey. Unless you include Heisey in the trade when he comes off the DL.

So maybe something like this......
Reds get......
Stanton - main target for Reds in trade
Nolasco - Fish require Reds take on his salary. But he is a FA in 2014
Ruggiano - takes place of Heisey as back up CFer or full time CFer and Choo moves to LF. Makes the minimum for years to come.
Mike Dunn (LH Reliever, 1.72 e.r.a.) - strengthens the bullpen immediately against lefties. Lefties hitting .226 against him this season. Arbitration eligible in 2014. FA in 2017.

Fish get.......
Heisey (major leaguer) - younger version of Ruggiano
Leake (major leaguer) - young and just now hitting arbitration, replaces Nolasco at a cheaper rate.
F Perez (AAA) - candidate/prospect to replace Stanton; cheap
N. Soto (AAA) - 1B candidate to replace Marlins Greg Dobbs (34 years old).
B. Hamilton (AAA) - Reds #1 prospect
Corcino (AAA) - Reds 3rd best pitching prospect
HRod (AAA) - heir apparent to Polanco at 3B
Logan Ondrusek - replaces Dunn in bullpen.

Frankly, I think that's a pretty good haul for the Fish even if Billy Hamilton wasn't included.

Old school 1983
05-10-2013, 02:20 PM
Meh. Won't happen. Reds are adding too much payroll. Stanton is under control for awhile. Sure, he gets a raise in arbitration, but not $10M or $20M. Nolasco comes with enough salary to kill the deal. But he and Polanco are FA's after 2013. I don't see the Reds giving up their long term answer to 3B for a 37 year old. Plus the Reds are already paying Hannahan as backup to 3B.

Neither team is looking to take much salary, if any.

Per baseball-reference.com......

Polanco, 37 years old, $2.75M in 2013, FA in 2014
Nolasco, 30 years old, $11.5M in 2013, FA in 2014
Ruggiano, 31 years old, minimum
Stanton, 23 years old, minimum, arbitration in 2014

Not sure why the Reds need Ruggiano when they already have Heisey. Unless you include Heisey in the trade when he comes off the DL.

So maybe something like this......
Reds get......
Stanton - main target for Reds in trade
Nolasco - Fish require Reds take on his salary. But he is a FA in 2014
Ruggiano - takes place of Heisey as back up CFer or full time CFer and Choo moves to LF. Makes the minimum for years to come.
Mike Dunn (LH Reliever, 1.72 e.r.a.) - strengthens the bullpen immediately against lefties. Lefties hitting .226 against him this season. Arbitration eligible in 2014. FA in 2017.

Fish get.......
Heisey (major leaguer) - younger version of Ruggiano
Leake (major leaguer) - young and just now hitting arbitration, replaces Nolasco at a cheaper rate.
F Perez (AAA) - candidate/prospect to replace Stanton; cheap
N. Soto (AAA) - 1B candidate to replace Marlins Greg Dobbs (34 years old).
B. Hamilton (AAA) - Reds #1 prospect
Corcino (AAA) - Reds 3rd best pitching prospect
HRod (AAA) - heir apparent to Polanco at 3B
Logan Ondrusek - replaces Dunn in bullpen.

Frankly, I think that's a pretty good haul for the Fish even if Billy Hamilton wasn't included.


I was saying maybe Polanco. I could see maybe including Hrod instead of Frazier. I. Your version of the deal, aside from Hamilton and leake, the reds are giving the fish a lot of second tier prospects. Isn't there top position player prospect a center fielder? I think in that case they wouldn't want Hamilton. Lutz and heisey offer a major league ready guy and a guy with a few years of experience. Frazier would be a sweetner plus they could pay a lower price than for Polanco, who would platoon with hannahan until seasons end. The acquisition if Stanton would lessen the need for fraziers bat. It'd be tough loosing cingrani and leake but I think the fish would welcome the pitching help. At that pint the top three in their rotation would look pretty good. I know the reds would be taking on money, but it's money that comes off the books at years end. It'd be kind if a win now trade, but not a minor league busting trade. Next year for the reds Hamilton can slide into center if choo isn't resigned and Hrod can go to third or platoon with hannahan. Corcino could go into the rotation and arroyo could be either resigned or another pitcher be brought in.

All And all I just don't think you'd be giving up enough.

Cingrani has more upside than leake and by giving them both I'd be a real deal starter

Lutz is more versatile than Soto and IMO had greater upside. He'd be a better pie e for the fish than Perez who'd be a stopgap at best. Late 20s and in AAA with no majors experience.

Frazier and Hrod to me is almost a push depending on what kind of player you need. If the reds acquire Stanton you can go with more contact and Frazier has more trade value. Plus the fish could see Frazier and lutz make up for the lost power.

Heisey is a servicable backup

Travieso has plus stuff but is years away and may not be ready until the reds window of opportunity is past

Either Cisco or Romano is a nice sweetner piece but no major loss to the big league club until like 2 or three years from now.

The only way I could see my proposed deal being different is to take leake out and put corcino in do the reds can keep reliable big league pitching.

Vottomatic
05-10-2013, 02:32 PM
I was saying maybe Polanco. I could see maybe including Hrod instead of Frazier. I. Your version of the deal, aside from Hamilton and leake, the reds are giving the fish a lot of second tier prospects. Isn't there top position player prospect a center fielder? I think in that case they wouldn't want Hamilton. Lutz and heisey offer a major league ready guy and a guy with a few years of experience. Frazier would be a sweetner plus they could pay a lower price than for Polanco, who would platoon with hannahan until seasons end. The acquisition if Stanton would lessen the need for fraziers bat. It'd be tough loosing cingrani and leake but I think the fish would welcome the pitching help. At that pint the top three in their rotation would look pretty good. I know the reds would be taking on money, but it's money that comes off the books at years end. It'd be kind if a win now trade, but not a minor league busting trade. Next year for the reds Hamilton can slide into center if choo isn't resigned and Hrod can go to third or platoon with hannahan. Corcino could go into the rotation and arroyo could be either resigned or another pitcher be brought in.

All And all I just don't think you'd be giving up enough.

Cingrani has more upside than leake and by giving them both I'd be a real deal starter

Lutz is more versatile than Soto and IMO had greater upside. He'd be a better pie e for the fish than Perez who'd be a stopgap at best. Late 20s and in AAA with no majors experience.

Frazier and Hrod to me is almost a push depending on what kind of player you need. If the reds acquire Stanton you can go with more contact and Frazier has more trade value. Plus the fish could see Frazier and lutz make up for the lost power.

Heisey is a servicable backup

Travieso has plus stuff but is years away and may not be ready until the reds window of opportunity is past

Either Cisco or Romano is a nice sweetner piece but no major loss to the big league club until like 2 or three years from now.

The only way I could see my proposed deal being different is to take leake out and put corcino in do the reds can keep reliable big league pitching.

HRod
FPerez
NSoto

All are 4A players at this point with little to prove in triple A. It's now or never and they are blocked in the Reds organization.

Corcino is on the cusp. Probably this season and next in triple A and he's pushing on the door.

While Lutz may seem like the bigger name.......he was hitting only like .212 in double AA. Not sure what the allure is with him at this point. Potential is high though.

Not sure Cingrani has more upside than Leake at this point. Leake has 4 pitches. Cingrani has 2, maybe 3. Leake is more polished. Cingrani easily could be getting by on the league having never seen him before.

Old school 1983
05-10-2013, 02:45 PM
HRod
FPerez
NSoto

All are 4A players at this point with little to prove in triple A. It's now or never and they are blocked in the Reds organization.

Corcino is on the cusp. Probably this season and next in triple A and he's pushing on the door.

While Lutz may seem like the bigger name.......he was hitting only like .212 in double AA. Not sure what the allure is with him at this point. Potential is high though.

Not sure Cingrani has more upside than Leake at this point. Leake has 4 pitches. Cingrani has 2, maybe 3. Leake is more polished. Cingrani easily could be getting by on the league having never seen him before.

Exactly. They are not going to want 4 A players for arguably the best power hitter in the game.

Cingrani is a hot ticket right now.
Leake has a good track record and is major league proven.
So is Frazier. So is Heisey.
I still say Lutz has a higher ceiling than soto. Can play more spots and shorter swing.

The minor league guys I included includes Travieso who while has high upside is a way off. The other two, only one of which I'd include, have big league potential but are a few years off.

In my deal the fish would be getting proven, young or younger major league talent back. Not 4A players.

I think Hamilton will be good but Miami has a prospect for center and Hamilton is struggling at AAA now. I think my deal offers more for the fish to bite at (pun intended) and while the reds would take on salary it'd be for the very short term. I wouldn't create holes on this years team, and the ones that it could create next year could be mostly filled in by our minor leaguers.

Vottomatic
05-10-2013, 03:40 PM
Exactly. They are not going to want 4 A players for arguably the best power hitter in the game.

Cingrani is a hot ticket right now.
Leake has a good track record and is major league proven.
So is Frazier. So is Heisey.
I still say Lutz has a higher ceiling than soto. Can play more spots and shorter swing.

The minor league guys I included includes Travieso who while has high upside is a way off. The other two, only one of which I'd include, have big league potential but are a few years off.

In my deal the fish would be getting proven, young or younger major league talent back. Not 4A players.

I think Hamilton will be good but Miami has a prospect for center and Hamilton is struggling at AAA now. I think my deal offers more for the fish to bite at (pun intended) and while the reds would take on salary it'd be for the very short term. I wouldn't create holes on this years team, and the ones that it could create next year could be mostly filled in by our minor leaguers.

By 4A players I simply mean they have nothing left to prove at 3A. I didn't mean they weren't major league talent. Soto, on fire right now, and Felix Perez really have nothing left to prove at triple A. I don't think HRod does either, although he has struggled so far this season.

I have no idea why people think it's going to take like 7 or 8 players, a Herschel Walker-type deal, to get Stanton.

Shoot, I'd do Hamilton and Chapman for Stanton straight up. Reds #1 prospect and a top 3 Closer in the game right now, not to mention Cuban, which would play well in Miami. Not to mention Chapman is a pretty good draw for fans. And unlike the Reds, who have 5 or 6 potential quality starters in Latos, Cueto, Bailey, Arroyo, Leake, Cingrani..........the Fish would have time to develop Chapman as a starter. And according to some fans (on Redszone and on the radio), Chapman is the second coming of Randy Johnson. So that's pretty good return value right there.

Old school 1983
05-10-2013, 04:16 PM
By 4A players I simply mean they have nothing left to prove at 3A. I didn't mean they weren't major league talent. Soto, on fire right now, and Felix Perez really have nothing left to prove at triple A. I don't think HRod does either, although he has struggled so far this season.

I have no idea why people think it's going to take like 7 or 8 players, a Herschel Walker-type deal, to get Stanton.

Shoot, I'd do Hamilton and Chapman for Stanton straight up. Reds #1 prospect and a top 3 Closer in the game right now, not to mention Cuban, which would play well in Miami. Not to mention Chapman is a pretty good draw for fans. And unlike the Reds, who have 5 or 6 potential quality starters in Latos, Cueto, Bailey, Arroyo, Leake, Cingrani..........the Fish would have time to develop Chapman as a starter. And according to some fans (on Redszone and on the radio), Chapman is the second coming of Randy Johnson. So that's pretty good return value right there.

Maybe it wouldn't take as much as I proposed but the guys you put in there, none of them have the potential to be a superstar, even billy or a number one starter. You don't trade the best power hitter in the game at 23 for that. No way I trade chapman. You want to make a legit run at the series you need a shut down bullpen. Look how out of wack they looked missing Marshall. Don't cite the cards from 2011. By the time the playoffs rolled around the pen was set and last year the giants had a wild card in the pen with lincecum. Also chapman could start next year if the reds have to spend pitching this year. In recent years closers haven't been hard to come by in the off season.

REDREAD
05-13-2013, 01:29 PM
To Miami:
Leake
Cingrani
Frazier
Heisey
Lutz
Travieso
Cisco or Romano

To reds:
Stanton
Nolasco
Ruggiano
Maybe Polanco

.

That's way too much for Stanton, IMO.
I know the theory is that Nolasco could fill the 5th starter role, but he's a downgrade from Leake/Cingrani and he's expensive.
Trading Frasier leaves a big hole as well. I really don't want Hannaran to play everyday and also be forced to call up someone like Negron as a backup infielder/PH. Maybe Polanaco could fill in at 3b (just now noticing that), but not a big fan of that trade. I think it weakens the Reds more than it helps them short term.

I could actually get behind getting Polanco by himself in a minor trade to play 3b and putting Frasier into LF to try to get a little more offense until Ludwick gets back, but that kind of closes the door for a bigger move.

Old school 1983
05-13-2013, 02:26 PM
That's way too much for Stanton, IMO.
I know the theory is that Nolasco could fill the 5th starter role, but he's a downgrade from Leake/Cingrani and he's expensive.
Trading Frasier leaves a big hole as well. I really don't want Hannaran to play everyday and also be forced to call up someone like Negron as a backup infielder/PH. Maybe Polanaco could fill in at 3b (just now noticing that), but not a big fan of that trade. I think it weakens the Reds more than it helps them short term.

I could actually get behind getting Polanco by himself in a minor trade to play 3b and putting Frasier into LF to try to get a little more offense until Ludwick gets back, but that kind of closes the door for a bigger move.

I think people are way too high on Frazier. With the addition of Stanton's bat, and hannahans glove the team would be better. Plus if Polanco were in the trade he could easily be the offensive end of a third base platoon and give ways more diciplined at bats than Frazier ever dreamed he could.

The guys I'd be really worried about giving up are lutz Travieso and leake. I'd try to maybe put corcino in that trade instead of leake.

Nolasco is a very serviceable 5th starter.

Maybe I overvalued the trade, but we are not going to get Stanton for a bunch of B rated prospects and Hamilton. Trading Hamilton or chapman for him IMO is not a smart move.

Cingrani
Leake
Frazier
Heisey
Travieso

I know it's pitching heavy, and for whatever reason no one wants to move Frazier but you have to give quality for quality.

In the long run next year chapman takes a rotation spot, corcino takes a spot. Hrod takes third. Arroyo will be gone and maybe choo. Take the extra money for a starter or closer or resign choo and pick up Stanton's arb money.

Old school 1983
05-13-2013, 03:22 PM
Ill admit maybe it was an overpay for Stanton, and I was trying to make the point that it'll take legit prospect talent or younger major leaguers to get him rather than guys who have nothing left to prove in AAA but probably have no shot at being stars with Hamilton along with the fact that trading Hamilton and chapman would be insanely detrimental to the team this year and moving forward. I have an odd feeling that if Stanton is traded this year Nolasco will be attached.

Cingrani
Corcino
Travieso
Frazier
Heisey

To reds:
Stanton
Nolasco
Polanco
Ruggiano

The bulk of the price is for Stanton. The pitchers and fraziers bat. We get the three rentals to give the fish salary relief and act as a platoon partner at third and right handed power/backup centerfield. We could keep Nolasco as depth or flip him to another team.

REDREAD
05-13-2013, 03:50 PM
Ill admit maybe it was an overpay for Stanton, .

From the Miami point of view, your trade proposal really isn't that crazy.
I'm just saying that I wouldn't do the trade if I was the Reds.
I don't think the upgrade of Heisey to Stanton offsets the loss of 3 major league contributors.
Even though Cingrani will probably go down as soon as Cueto is healthy, he'll probably be back up at some point in the season to make a few starts. I'm guessing Cingrani is in the bullpen as the second LH pitcher for the playoffs too.

I think Hannaran is a very nice bench player, but I don't want him starting everyday. Frasier is a potential 20 HR, 80 RBI guy at 3b that plays acceptable defense. Maybe I am overrating him, but guys like that don't grow on trees.
It's true that Todd is never going to be a high OBP guy, but he's a nice 6th place hitter.

It's likely to be a very tight race for the division with the Cardinals.. I really don't want to lose Leake and Cingrani and replace them with the inferior Nolasaco.
Even though Stanton probably is an impact addition to our offense, he is off to a horrible start. That can't be completely discounted.

I'd much rather give up some non-ML players for Stanton. Maybe give them one of Leake/Cingrani, but not both. If the Reds don't have enough on the farm to entice Miami, I'm fine with standing pat and trying to find a temporary plug in LF at the trading deadline (if Ludwick appears to be out for the year).

Vottomatic
05-13-2013, 04:27 PM
Ill admit maybe it was an overpay for Stanton, and I was trying to make the point that it'll take legit prospect talent or younger major leaguers to get him rather than guys who have nothing left to prove in AAA but probably have no shot at being stars with Hamilton along with the fact that trading Hamilton and chapman would be insanely detrimental to the team this year and moving forward. I have an odd feeling that if Stanton is traded this year Nolasco will be attached.

Cingrani
Corcino
Travieso
Frazier
Heisey

To reds:
Stanton
Nolasco
Polanco
Ruggiano

The bulk of the price is for Stanton. The pitchers and fraziers bat. We get the three rentals to give the fish salary relief and act as a platoon partner at third and right handed power/backup centerfield. We could keep Nolasco as depth or flip him to another team.

No thanks. I'm not trading Cingrani, Corcino and Travieso. No way.

Polanco is 37 years old. He's no long term answer at 3B and leaves a void there after this season.
Reds aren't taking on Nolasco's contract for this season when first of all they don't need him.
Ruggiano is basically Heisey.

I'd rather give up less players, and more impactful players such as giving up our #1 prospect, Hamilton, and maybe either Cingrani or Chapman. Something like that.

Old school 1983
05-13-2013, 06:30 PM
No thanks. I'm not trading Cingrani, Corcino and Travieso. No way.

Polanco is 37 years old. He's no long term answer at 3B and leaves a void there after this season.
Reds aren't taking on Nolasco's contract for this season when first of all they don't need him.
Ruggiano is basically Heisey.

I'd rather give up less players, and more impactful players such as giving up our #1 prospect, Hamilton, and maybe either Cingrani or Chapman. Something like that.

Hamilton is the only legitimate cf that could start in the majors pretty much at any level. Maybe yorman. The guy just isn't fast. He's once in a generation fast. If he got on the next how ever many batters would see more fastballs. You can get other power hitters. Cingrani while doing well up here relies way too much on the fastball. Chapman is a stud of a closer and yes those are important and needed for a post season run. Also he could start next year. You'd be taking the salary of ruggiano and Nolasco for the fish to make the deal. They'd get the years of heisey. If rather have heisey but the deal would make more sense for Miami that way. Nolasco is probably attached to any Stanton deal while the marlins have him. You'd have to take the cash dump for a year to get the years of Stanton. But either he or leake in the pen and use them as depth or flip him. I'm still not quite sure what's up with the Frazier infatuation. We have a third basemen of the future Henry Rodriguez. Polanco a d hannahan would be a nice platoon. Frazier is not as vital to this team as chapman or as potentially impactful as Hamilton and not as talented as Bruce but I constantly see you wanting to trade these guys. It's not just you but the second I say anything that might even be remotely critical of Frazier or mention hey we could use him in a trade to get someone better a ton of people on here come running to protect him like a 16 year old girl tries to justify dating a guy she knows is not that great and she could to better. I mean cingrani corcino Travieso heisey and Frazier for Stanton and honestly three rentals all of which could help us win this year seems like a good deal to me. Cingrani probably tops out at a 2 corcino at a 3 Travieso at a 1 5 years from now. Heisey is a backup and Frazier is a starter that offers a skillset that the reds have too much of. That'dbe a great deal for Stanton. We'd only be giving up one prospect who would be considered a future impact player in Travieso and we'd keep Stephenson who is probably going to be better.

Vottomatic
05-13-2013, 08:10 PM
I'm considering payroll limitations and you're not. Thus trading some guys with current higher contracts or big paydays on the way.

Also, you consistently say you have to give up something of value to get value. Yet you're so eager to trade Frazier, which speaks volumes of what you think of him........not much. So if you don't think much of him, why do you think The Fish will? Makes no sense.

It's gonna hurt a bit to trade for Stanton. The question is........where do you want to hurt........and be realistic about what the Fish would accept in trade.

There is also the balance that there are guys you're trading that I'd rather not part with.........and frankly, I'll go without Stanton if that's what it takes.

The best deals are giving up quality prospects that are blocked.........such as what Walt did in the Latos deal. Alonso (blocked by Votto), Grandal (blocked by Mesoraco - who the Reds preferred at the time), Boxberger (Reds bullpen was already stellar), and Volquez (needed a change of scenery, and Reds got Latos to replace him to go with Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, etc.). And other than Volquez having major league experience, Alonso had just a taste of it, and the other 2 were minor leaguers.

Same with Donnie Joseph for Broxton last year. Highly touted minor league reliever for an established reliever.

Nor do I understand your infatuation with the Fish wanting to unload Nolasco. If his contract is up at season's end, what's the big deal about dumping him? He's not even as good as any of the Reds current starters. They don't want or need him.

Old school 1983
05-13-2013, 09:06 PM
I'm considering payroll limitations and you're not. Thus trading some guys with current higher contracts or big paydays on the way.

Also, you consistently say you have to give up something of value to get value. Yet you're so eager to trade Frazier, which speaks volumes of what you think of him........not much. So if you don't think much of him, why do you think The Fish will? Makes no sense.

It's gonna hurt a bit to trade for Stanton. The question is........where do you want to hurt........and be realistic about what the Fish would accept in trade.

There is also the balance that there are guys you're trading that I'd rather not part with.........and frankly, I'll go without Stanton if that's what it takes.

The best deals are giving up quality prospects that are blocked.........such as what Walt did in the Latos deal. Alonso (blocked by Votto), Grandal (blocked by Mesoraco - who the Reds preferred at the time), Boxberger (Reds bullpen was already stellar), and Volquez (needed a change of scenery, and Reds got Latos to replace him to go with Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, etc.). And other than Volquez having major league experience, Alonso had just a taste of it, and the other 2 were minor leaguers.

Same with Donnie Joseph for Broxton last year. Highly touted minor league reliever for an established reliever.

Nor do I understand your infatuation with the Fish wanting to unload Nolasco. If his contract is up at season's end, what's the big deal about dumping him? He's not even as good as any of the Reds current starters. They don't want or need him.

I wouldn't want or need him either but really unless you'd want to pay a higher price that's what's it'd take. Nolasco is an 11 million dollar burden on loria on a marlins team that is going absolutely nowhere. Eating that salary for him may be the true cost of acquiring Stanton this year. Next year they will probably want more prospect wise and we will be hard pressed to outbid the cards or rangers unless we give up the ultimate trade chip. Young pitching. I completely agree with trading commodities that are blocked or that you don't need but the guys you mentioned from the latos trade had star potential whereas the guys you mentioned earlier did not.

Trading chapman would be a huge mistake. Look how out of wack the pen looked without Marshall. Imagine how it'd be without chapman. It'd be different if we were running out some sort of closer by committee but we are running out arguably the best closer in at least the NL stuff wise plus he has potential to start.

Billy Hamilton is not a guy to trade. He brings assets to the reds that they sorely lack. Speed and the ability to play center. His speed is awesome. Hell turn things around in AAA and kinda is as we speak. The guy could make an impact for so many hitters just by being on base when they are up. He could also be an invaluable chip in a playoff run this year as a late inning pinch runner at least.

I would hate to part with pitching but the simple fact of the matter is that we have an extremely solid 1-3 starters right now and signed at least through the end of next year. Arroyo is a warrior and leake is much better than he gets credit for. That's why I said we should deal pitching. We have solid pieces. I know we'd be running a risk like the dodgers did but I'd be much more willing to run that risk for Stanton especially if you could get a filler like Nolasco for the rest of the year. The depth issue could be addressed in the offseason.

I wouldn't want to trade any of those pitchers in a perfect world but simply that is the area of this team that is blocked right now and right now pitchers are our best prospects. That's what teams are going to want.

As far as Frazier goes he's a nice piece. I've always said that. He's a GOOD overall player but our Fans treat him like an UNEXPENDABLE ALL STAR. When in reality he is a commodity that the reds are overloaded with. The feast or famine hitter. Out of our feast or famine guys I see him as the one I'd move because he is not as good at 3b as Bruce is in right and cozart is at short. Cozart plays a more premium defensive position which would be harder to replace. Bruce is already an all star and has not reached his full potential level yet plus he's younger than Frazier. The fish would want power back to replace stanton. In reality they may want Frazier and lutz. I'd rather just give up Frazier and I would have said that before lutzs' call up. So that's my case to why Frazier should be traded. I know other people think he has value and we ought to exploit that while they still do. I really think last year was his career year.

As far as payroll goes we have no idea what the inner workings are. All I hear is castellini hates to lose. If Walt came to him and said hey we can get Stanton but we'd have to take a payroll spike this year to get him I think he'd go for it.

And I know what your master plan is. Trade for Stanton and trade for fowler and resign choo. It's just too many moves dependent on other moves. If one thing goes wrong for the reds they are out of luck.

So pretty much if you want to make an offer that is better than other teams, doesnt immediately leave the reds short handed at an important position with one of the teams most irreplaceable players, and deals pieces we do not immediately need, then you're going to have to have the guts pull the trigger on giving up some young pitching.

Giving up the prospects you mentioned and Hamilton could be easily matched by other clubs.

Trading chapman and Hamilton or cingrani and Hamilton will hurt the reds more than trading those pitchers IMO.

Vottomatic
05-14-2013, 10:40 AM
I wouldn't want or need him either but really unless you'd want to pay a higher price that's what's it'd take. Nolasco is an 11 million dollar burden on loria on a marlins team that is going absolutely nowhere. Eating that salary for him may be the true cost of acquiring Stanton this year.

I still think you forget that the Reds have a $100M-$106M payroll this year and are probably up against their limit already. Sure, if they can swing taking on Nolasco's salary for the remainder of this year, and the Fish take into consideration the value of it to them in the trade......then I'd do it. I just don't think the Reds can. I also think it means sending them Leake or Cingrani back in the deal to replace Nolasco. Leake heads to arbitration next season. Cingrani still comes cheap. Gee, I wonder which one Loria would want. :laugh:


Next year they will probably want more prospect wise and we will be hard pressed to outbid the cards or rangers unless we give up the ultimate trade chip. Young pitching.

I agree it's now or never. If Stanton survives to the offseason, the Reds will have zero chance competing against the large markets to acquire him. I think the Reds chances are slim to none now anyway.


I completely agree with trading commodities that are blocked or that you don't need but the guys you mentioned from the latos trade had star potential whereas the guys you mentioned earlier did not.

So far, none of the guys in the Latos trade have been much more than average, including Alonso. What the Padres got were (2) #1 picks in Alonso and Grandal. I think Boxberger was either a supplemental first rounder or second rounder.......I can't remember. And a former Cy Young candidate who won 17 games a few years back in Volquez. Volquez wouldn't make the Reds current starting rotation. Grandal is suspended for PED's. Alonso is still blocked by Votto. And Boxberger has been mediocre since the trade and more than likely wouldn't be in the bullpen. Really no loss for the Reds in that trade unless one of those guys jumps in his improvement suddenly.

I think the problem in trying to match that trade is, atleast to me, is that there is a huge difference in trading #1 picks that are hitters, rather than trading #1 picks that are pitchers. A whole different level of value, IMHO. And so far, neither Grandal or Alonso are Pujols or Trout......nor do I think they'll ever be. I tend to value pitchers more than you appear to. I think one of your proposals had Corcino, Stephenson and Travieso going in a deal. Yikes. You do realize that both Stephenson and Travieso throw in the mid-90's and can touch 97 mph, don't you? Those guys don't grow on trees.

So another problem is that the Reds don't have much to trade after that. Hamilton is the #1 prospect and you don't want to trade him. Who else at triple A has any value? Henry Rodriguez?


Trading chapman would be a huge mistake. Look how out of whack the pen looked without Marshall. Imagine how it'd be without chapman. It'd be different if we were running out some sort of closer by committee but we are running out arguably the best closer in at least the NL stuff wise plus he has potential to start.

Chapman is going to get really expensive here in a couple of years. I'm not in the camp that thinks he can be a good enough starter to make it worthwhile trying him there. Frankly, I think Hoover or Lecure could Close for this team. People laugh at that, but I think Lecure has one of the best pitching arsenal's I've seen in a long while. I really enjoy watching that guy pitch. As for Chapman starting, the Reds have 6 legit starters now. Maybe Leake or Cingrani go in a trade. You still have Corcino, Sharky Rogers (1.51 e.r.a. at Pensacola), Stephenson, Cisco, and Travieso coming to the majors probably by 2015 or 2016. Cueto, Latos, and Bailey are mostly signed through 2014 or 2015. I would rather keep Chapman at Closer if he's not to be traded. We don't need him in the starting rotation.


Billy Hamilton is not a guy to trade. He brings assets to the reds that they sorely lack. Speed and the ability to play center. His speed is awesome. Hell turn things around in AAA and kinda is as we speak. The guy could make an impact for so many hitters just by being on base when they are up. He could also be an invaluable chip in a playoff run this year as a late inning pinch runner at least.

You're preaching to the choir in terms of his speed. I'm just not convinced he is ever going to be anything other than mediocre in terms of a hitter. You can't steal first base. Might be time to get something for him while he still has trade value. I hope I'm wrong because I'd love to see him in CF and leading off for the Reds, if he can hit .280+ and have an OBP of .350 or higher.


I would hate to part with pitching but the simple fact of the matter is that we have an extremely solid 1-3 starters right now and signed at least through the end of next year. Arroyo is a warrior and leake is much better than he gets credit for. That's why I said we should deal pitching. We have solid pieces. I know we'd be running a risk like the dodgers did but I'd be much more willing to run that risk for Stanton especially if you could get a filler like Nolasco for the rest of the year. The depth issue could be addressed in the offseason.

Cueto signed through 2015. Latos signed through 2014. Bailey is rumored to want to test free agency in 2015, and that he hates pitching in GABP. Arroyo is a FA in 2014. Can the Reds afford to re-sign Arroyo? Leake arbitration eligible this offseason. Reds may have to look at starting to replace some of these guys simply due to their payroll limitations. They can't keep everyone.


I wouldn't want to trade any of those pitchers in a perfect world but simply that is the area of this team that is blocked right now and right now pitchers are our best prospects. That's what teams are going to want.

I'd trade a pitcher. But not 3 of them like you proposed. And as I've shown, the current starters may all be gone by 2015 or 2016. We need replacements. I hate trading too much pitching.


As far as Frazier goes he's a nice piece. I've always said that. He's a GOOD overall player but our Fans treat him like an UNEXPENDABLE ALL STAR. When in reality he is a commodity that the reds are overloaded with. The feast or famine hitter. Out of our feast or famine guys I see him as the one I'd move because he is not as good at 3b as Bruce is in right and cozart is at short. Cozart plays a more premium defensive position which would be harder to replace. Bruce is already an all star and has not reached his full potential level yet plus he's younger than Frazier. The fish would want power back to replace stanton. In reality they may want Frazier and lutz. I'd rather just give up Frazier and I would have said that before lutzs' call up. So that's my case to why Frazier should be traded. I know other people think he has value and we ought to exploit that while they still do. I really think last year was his career year.

I'd trade Frazier if that's what it took. But as I said earlier, you seem to undervalue him but think the Fish would value him. Makes no sense. And the only replacement for Frazier would be HRod at Louisville. HRod had a ton of errors in Spring Training. And he's not exactly lighting it up at Louisville. Not a quality third baseman replacement in the Reds system.


As far as payroll goes we have no idea what the inner workings are. All I hear is castellini hates to lose. If Walt came to him and said hey we can get Stanton but we'd have to take a payroll spike this year to get him I think he'd go for it.

And I know what your master plan is. Trade for Stanton and trade for fowler and resign choo. It's just too many moves dependent on other moves. If one thing goes wrong for the reds they are out of luck.

So pretty much if you want to make an offer that is better than other teams, doesnt immediately leave the reds short handed at an important position with one of the teams most irreplaceable players, and deals pieces we do not immediately need, then you're going to have to have the guts pull the trigger on giving up some young pitching.

Giving up the prospects you mentioned and Hamilton could be easily matched by other clubs.

Trading chapman and Hamilton or cingrani and Hamilton will hurt the reds more than trading those pitchers IMO.

I'm not really interested in draining the farm system to obtain Stanton. Thus my 1 (Cingrani) for 1 (Stanton) proposals or 2 (Hamilton/Chapman) for 1 proposals. I seriously doubt the Reds want to gut the system either considering they have to consider total payroll, and will need cheaper options in the coming years.

Just say no if the deal ain't right. Has to work for both sides. And there simply might not be a match between the Fish and the Reds. :thumbup:

SpiritofStLouis
05-14-2013, 10:56 AM
I know it's fun to speculate, but realistically, their are at least a dozen teams that have more to offer the Marlins than Cincinnati.

Not saying it can't happen, but maybe if you offered Cingrani, Hamilton, Stephenson and a lower prospect, you might get talks going.

Old school 1983
05-14-2013, 11:38 AM
I know it's fun to speculate, but realistically, their are at least a dozen teams that have more to offer the Marlins than Cincinnati.

Not saying it can't happen, but maybe if you offered Cingrani, Hamilton, Stephenson and a lower prospect, you might get talks going.

It's fun to speculate but for the reds to be able to land Stanton I think they may have to be willing to take on the salaries of some players the marlins have that they want off of the payroll. My basic point with Stanton is I think the reds would have to seriously overpay for him. Pretty much to the point where it could actually do more long run damage than Stanton would be worth. If they could get him for less by all means. I think the reds would be better off going after someone like Headley. He wouldn't come cheap but he wouldn't be in Stanton's price range, would make the team D better and still be able to fill the four hole

SpiritofStLouis
05-14-2013, 01:09 PM
It's fun to speculate but for the reds to be able to land Stanton I think they may have to be willing to take on the salaries of some players the marlins have that they want off of the payroll. My basic point with Stanton is I think the reds would have to seriously overpay for him. Pretty much to the point where it could actually do more long run damage than Stanton would be worth. If they could get him for less by all means. I think the reds would be better off going after someone like Headley. He wouldn't come cheap but he wouldn't be in Stanton's price range, would make the team D better and still be able to fill the four hole

At this point, I think anybody that wants Stanton is going to have to overpay. He is extremely talented, young and cost controlled for now.

He is the crown jewel of Miami's club, and there are enough teams that would want him that a bidding war would certainly ensue.

As for Headley, San Diego has been trying for almost a month to re-sign him, but as of yet he has resisted. Whether or not San Diego relents at the trade deadline remains to be seen.

Personally, if I was the Reds I wouldn't part with what it would take to get him. Their farm system just isn't deep enough right now to pare off their top prospects for one player.

If it were me, I'd wait until July, see if Ludwick is coming back, then scoop up a bat that's an impending FA. Teams are always willing to do a salary dump or trade a player they have no hope of re-signing.

Old school 1983
05-14-2013, 01:51 PM
At this point, I think anybody that wants Stanton is going to have to overpay. He is extremely talented, young and cost controlled for now.

He is the crown jewel of Miami's club, and there are enough teams that would want him that a bidding war would certainly ensue.

As for Headley, San Diego has been trying for almost a month to re-sign him, but as of yet he has resisted. Whether or not San Diego relents at the trade deadline remains to be seen.

Personally, if I was the Reds I wouldn't part with what it would take to get him. Their farm system just isn't deep enough right now to pare off their top prospects for one player.

If it were me, I'd wait until July, see if Ludwick is coming back, then scoop up a bat that's an impending FA. Teams are always willing to do a salary dump or trade a player they have no hope of re-signing.

I could see a play for Michael young but he doesn't bat 4. Anyone fit that profile?

REDREAD
05-14-2013, 03:00 PM
If it were me, I'd wait until July, see if Ludwick is coming back, then scoop up a bat that's an impending FA. Teams are always willing to do a salary dump or trade a player they have no hope of re-signing.

Yeah, that's what I see happening.
That's more of Walt's style.
You are right, at the trade deadline, there's plenty of decent players available that are pending free agents which are not that expensive to acquire.

Heck, look at Rolen and Broxton as examples for the Reds.

Or when Walt got Larry Walker for the Cards (although I can't remember what the Cards gave up for him).

Let's say that Ludwick is lost for the year. I'm pretty confident that Walt can find a guy to fill in LF capably for the rest of the year without giving up someone like Billy Hamilton, Cingrani, Leake, etc.