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View Full Version : I love Leake bat but Cingrani has better upside pitching



DWS1125
05-09-2013, 10:43 PM
thinking outside the box on this one..something that may be so different or orthodox it may work..Move Leake to Shortstop, he played infield in college, he's athletic, quick and hits better than Cozart. Boom there's your number 2 right hand hitter

RedlegJake
05-09-2013, 11:36 PM
out of the box. Fun to think BUT is he really a better hitter...exposed full time? And he must be a super super athlete in your mind to simply step into a ML SS role. Fun but dumb idea.

Goose1701
05-10-2013, 12:32 AM
Leake is a damn fine hitter, for a pitcher. But in addition to what RedlegJake said, do you really think Leake would be able to even come close to Cozart's defense at short? No way.

JayBruceFan
05-10-2013, 01:43 AM
A move Leake to SS thread? Must have been an off-day. lol

DWS1125
05-10-2013, 04:19 AM
this is baseball..some of these players were drafted and played multiple positions in college. Phillips was a shortstop, Choo was a pitcher at one point, this team isn't going anywhere this year, and the money situation isn't helping out either. The offensive struggles of this team,you can realate it to the 2 hole hitter. You get offense out of that spot you going to score runs if not its going to be a struggle.

DWS1125
05-10-2013, 04:25 AM
Why all of a sudden this team needs Ludwick? You have three spots in the lineup batting batting below their body weight. What if the cardinals thought like the reds and said Ankiel you can't pitch so we have to let you go.

Goose1701
05-10-2013, 05:24 AM
this is baseball..some of these players were drafted and played multiple positions in college. Phillips was a shortstop, Choo was a pitcher at one point, this team isn't going anywhere this year, and the money situation isn't helping out either. The offensive struggles of this team,you can realate it to the 2 hole hitter. You get offense out of that spot you going to score runs if not its going to be a struggle.

This team isn't going anywhere? Really? The Cardinals have gotten unsubstainable awesome performance from their entire rotation, and we've not had our Ace and left fielder for basically the entire season so far, and we're getting subpar performances from Bruce,Frazier, and Cozart. And despite all that we're still in 2nd place and just 3 games back.

How can you seriously think that this team doesn't have a damn good chance of making the playoffs this season?

Old school 1983
05-10-2013, 07:51 AM
This team isn't going anywhere? Really? The Cardinals have gotten unsubstainable awesome performance from their entire rotation, and we've not had our Ace and left fielder for basically the entire season so far, and we're getting subpar performances from Bruce,Frazier, and Cozart. And despite all that we're still in 2nd place and just 3 games back.

How can you seriously think that this team doesn't have a damn good chance of making the playoffs this season?

Goose. I totally agree with you. This team is underperforming right now but by no means is out of it or going nowhere. Three games out at this point in the year is practically nothing. With the players the reds have right now, they could make the playoffs. Sure I think they could use a piece to make a deep run but they are as of right now most definitely not going nowhere.

Old school 1983
05-10-2013, 07:55 AM
And it isn't like leake is a bad pitcher. An era in the low 4 area is solid for a fifth starter, especially in great american. We have a loaded staff. Ankiel couldn't find the plate to save his life. So he had no choice but to move if he wanted to stay in baseball. There are plenty of teams that'd take leake in a heartbeat and he could easily be their third starter especially in a more pitcher friendly park.

CySeymour
05-10-2013, 09:05 AM
This team isn't going anywhere? Really? The Cardinals have gotten unsubstainable awesome performance from their entire rotation, and we've not had our Ace and left fielder for basically the entire season so far, and we're getting subpar performances from Bruce,Frazier, and Cozart. And despite all that we're still in 2nd place and just 3 games back.

How can you seriously think that this team doesn't have a damn good chance of making the playoffs this season?

You really can't say for the season Frazier has been subpar. So far, he's accumulatd a WAR of 1.2, and OPS+ of 105, and he leads the National League in DRS for third base. Now, if you want to argue and claim he will end up being subpar by the end of the season, that's your choice. But up to this point in the season, he's been an asset.

Goose1701
05-10-2013, 05:59 PM
You really can't say for the season Frazier has been subpar. So far, he's accumulatd a WAR of 1.2, and OPS+ of 105, and he leads the National League in DRS for third base. Now, if you want to argue and claim he will end up being subpar by the end of the season, that's your choice. But up to this point in the season, he's been an asset.

Oh he's been an asset for sure, I was just referring to his wOBA being down 14 points from last year and the K's being up a bit. I do expect him to be fine though by the end of the season.

RedlegJake
05-10-2013, 06:55 PM
Seriously, some of the "we are lost" "the Cards are great" "Leake is a bad pitcher" Frazier is a bad third baseman" Reds offense is horrible stuff is ridiculous. Way overreacting. This comparing Leake with headcase Ankiel is and suggesting he replace Cozart...silly. Quit worrying about how great the darn Cards are...the Reds have built a solid team with a good farm backing and don't have to apologize to anyone. Nor feel inferior or "look to the Cards way". This tean will win the division even if they don't make a trade. Quit feeling second fiddle to the Cards!! Quit hand wringing because the Reds are not winning every series IN MAY. I've never seen so much "we are doomed the Cards are great" crap on this board since the 04 season when we really did stink.

Old school 1983
05-10-2013, 07:07 PM
Seriously, some of the "we are lost" "the Cards are great" "Leake is a bad pitcher" Frazier is a bad third baseman" Reds offense is horrible stuff is ridiculous. Way overreacting. This comparing Leake with headcase Ankiel is and suggesting he replace Cozart...silly. Quit worrying about how great the darn Cards are...the Reds have built a solid team with a good farm backing and don't have to apologize to anyone. Nor feel inferior or "look to the Cards way". This tean will win the division even if they don't make a trade. Quit feeling second fiddle to the Cards!! Quit hand wringing because the Reds are not winning every series IN MAY. I've never seen so much "we are doomed the Cards are great" crap on this board since the 04 season when we really did stink.

I agree for the most part. Leake is a solid pitcher. Teams would kill to have him. This offense isn't horrible. It's missing one key piece and guys are underperforming. I know the Frazier comment was directed at me but the guy is ok. I just think a lot of fans think he is way better than he really is. I've had comments on hypothetical trade threads that said if the reds had a chance to get a superior player like Headley we shouldnt move Frazier in the deal or even to left or even for a piece that help the team like young that we would be amiss to move Frazier. He's an alright player with plus pop. I think he is not very disciplined at the plate and we look at his D through rosť colored glasses but by no means is he terrible. I just think he'd be better in a platoon role while he is struggling and he'd make a good trade chip because he has value.

As far as the cards stuff goes, they are a great franchise and know how to win. We have to cut out this scrap heap lucky garbage. The cards are good admit it. So are the reds. I think there are a few things the reds could take note of from the cards but the same could be said the other way around too. So all and all it comes down to this: if the reds win who gives a crap what the cards do?

cincyredway
05-10-2013, 07:27 PM
I might b wrong ,but I bet cingrani is going down when cueto comes back, I think hanny catching him gives it away, hanny already catches Latos, arroyo, and bailey and now cingrani, so if cueto replaces leake then hanny would catch all 5, I would think if cingrani was staying they would have mes catching him to get familiar, but maybe I am looking too deep into it.

DavidMemphis
05-14-2013, 08:58 PM
For my money, Cozart's defense is something that I am NOT willing to give up. Hopefully, in time, he will develop into a more consistent hitter. Remember, before Ludwick got hurt, I believe he was slated to bat in the 7 hole, NOT the 2 hole. I agree that he doesn't hit well enough to man the 2 spot. But moving Leake to short would be an atrocious decision in my opinion. I'd like to see BP and Zach as our middle infield for the next decade.

As far as Cingrani, I am very high on him as well. However, through many years of watching this great game, I have learned to be weary. Young starting pitching, almost more than any other position, will disappoint in the long haul more often than not. Not saying that will happen in Tony's case at all - he's got great stuff. But, he IS young, and somewhat unrefined, so the Reds sending him down would not shock me. Where he needs work, in my opinion, is he needs to learn how to rely on his other pitches more to get outs. When you're throwing 90% fastballs in the minors, you can get away with it FAR more than in the majors. I'd like to see more use of his slider, curve, and better development of his changeup. Not saying he can't do that in the big show, just stating that while I'm very optimistic about him, he still has a ways to go in my humble opinion.

Old school 1983
05-14-2013, 09:05 PM
For my money, Cozart's defense is something that I am NOT willing to give up. Hopefully, in time, he will develop into a more consistent hitter. Remember, before Ludwick got hurt, I believe he was slated to bat in the 7 hole, NOT the 2 hole. I agree that he doesn't hit well enough to man the 2 spot. But moving Leake to short would be an atrocious decision in my opinion. I'd like to see BP and Zach as our middle infield for the next decade.

As far as Cingrani, I am very high on him as well. However, through many years of watching this great game, I have learned to be weary. Young starting pitching, almost more than any other position, will disappoint in the long haul more often than not. Not saying that will happen in Tony's case at all - he's got great stuff. But, he IS young, and somewhat unrefined, so the Reds sending him down would not shock me. Where he needs work, in my opinion, is he needs to learn how to rely on his other pitches more to get outs. When you're throwing 90% fastballs in the minors, you can get away with it FAR more than in the majors. I'd like to see more use of his slider, curve, and better development of his changeup. Not saying he can't do that in the big show, just stating that while I'm very optimistic about him, he still has a ways to go in my humble opinion.

Can I like this more than once? Haha

MillerTime58
05-15-2013, 01:40 PM
Having Leake switch positions would be one of the dumbest and short-minded moves the Reds could make. Players like Rick Ankiel switch because they literally lose their ability to play their former position effectively. Leake is still very young, and while he may be our #5, he is still good pitcher. As a SS, he would be a terrible defender and at best a slightly below average hitter. Not good.

IF we're going to give up on Leake as a starting pitcher, his best value to us comes via a trade to another team. There's no reason to give up on him at this point though.