Dusty and 2nd spot in order

[Rantly]

I generally don't have many problems with Dusty, but why does he insist on putting a weak hitting spot starter like Izterus batting 2nd, its never made sense to me and its been happening for years (our past punch-n-judy .200 hitting utility infielders). Its always been a rally killer in the top of the order. I also don't think Cozart belongs there either

[kfm]

Not a Dusty hater either, but this is one of the frustrating things Dusty does. He could bat Paul second or any of the leftfielders at this point and it would make a lot more sense. What is also frustrating is the fact that the cincy media never seems to even question him on this. It's like the media have grown so tired of the mindless attacks that Dusty takes from fans that they refuse to be critical of him for legitimate issues.

[Rantly]

I agree, wouldn't it be great if Jeff Picora(sp?) would ask Dusty tonite on reds postgame "Why your weakest hitter in the heart of the order?'

[Beer&Bourbon]

I've been amazed that this hasn't been changed. It's really frustrating when there are two outs and Cozart steps up to the plate... only to finish off the inning. Put someone - anyone - else in the number 2 hole.

[kfm]

I agree, wouldn't it be great if Jeff Picora(sp?) would ask Dusty tonite on reds postgame "Why your weakest hitter in the heart of the order?'

That would be nice. Seems like it is going to have to be Marty but he is pretty old school too.

[Goose]

The most frustrating thing is that kids from 8 years old and up know you bat your best hitters at the top of the order, and your worst hitters at the bottom of the order.

[RedsBrick]

Not a Dusty hater either, but this is one of the frustrating things Dusty does. He could bat Paul second or any of the leftfielders at this point and it would make a lot more sense. What is also frustrating is the fact that the cincy media never seems to even question him on this. It's like the media have grown so tired of the mindless attacks that Dusty takes from fans that they refuse to be critical of him for legitimate issues.

Dusty builds an Army line-up...L,R,L,R,L,R etc... Paul can't bat 2nd b/c that would completely mess that up. No way can he allow L, L, L to start the game. With Choo and Votto locked at 1 & 3, the only right handed options not locked in somewhere else in the order (BP @ 4 until Ludwick gets back), are Cozart, Izturis, and when he was healthy, a weak hitting Heisey.

The integrity of the L,R,L,R mentality must be maintained!

[Old school 1983]

The most frustrating thing is that kids from 8 years old and up know you bat your best hitters at the top of the order, and your worst hitters at the bottom of the order.

Yeah. It's pretty obvious even if you start L L L the number of left handed starters is small and using cozart in the two spot only then wouldn't be as bad as everyday. If a loogy comes in pinch hit.

[RedlegJake]

RedBrick gets it ... that is Dusty's reasoning. Plus once he sets lineup order he is loathe to change it. He believes players are most comfortable when they know every day where they'll hit. That's why he rarely flip flops players in the order. Probably felt most comfortable himself as a player when he knew where he hit every day and brings that to his managing. Dusty is far less strategic than in tune with players feelings and insecurities. That's why he sticks with guys thru thick and thin. It is both a strength and a flaw but overall I think its a plus as a manager. I gripe about the 2 spot as well but I know I am going to live or die in a baseball fandom sense, with Dustys peculiarities.

Regular season I think Dustys methods pay off actually. Short term, like playoffs it might burn them though. I believe he's a great manager in the macro sense but flawed in the sense of a single game or series.

[Old school 1983]

RedBrick gets it ... that is Dusty's reasoning. Plus once he sets lineup order he is loathe to change it. He believes players are most comfortable when they know every day where they'll hit. That's why he rarely flip flops players in the order. Probably felt most comfortable himself as a player when he knew where he hit every day and brings that to his managing. Dusty is far less strategic than in tune with players feelings and insecurities. That's why he sticks with guys thru thick and thin. It is both a strength and a flaw but overall I think its a plus as a manager. I gripe about the 2 spot as well but I know I am going to live or die in a baseball fandom sense, with Dustys peculiarities.

Regular season I think Dustys methods pay off actually. Short term, like playoffs it might burn them though. I believe he's a great manager in the macro sense but flawed in the sense of a single game or series.

I agree with your take on dusty to a T. He is a great long haul regular season manger. In the tactical game to game must win nature of the playoffs not so much.

[Johnny Fan]

I think alot has to do with comfortablity, yep something you can't put a number on. WHOM else hits second if not the guys Dusty has used? And how comfortable would they be there? Remember hitting is more then numbers and some players perform better when they are comfortable in thier certain slot. Right now would you hit Frazier there? He is struggling right now, doubt moving him would help. Hannigan? To slow and still trying to get his swing back. Paul? Maybe, but he doesn't play everyday...

[Rantly]

Dusty builds an Army line-up...L,R,L,R,L,R etc... Paul can't bat 2nd b/c that would completely mess that up. No way can he allow L, L, L to start the game. With Choo and Votto locked at 1 & 3, the only right handed options not locked in somewhere else in the order (BP @ 4 until Ludwick gets back), are Cozart, Izturis, and when he was healthy, a weak hitting Heisey.

The integrity of the L,R,L,R mentality must be maintained!

Somebody should mention to Dusty that the '76 Reds went S,L,L,R,R,R,R,L

[RedsBrick]

Somebody should mention to Dusty that the '76 Reds went S,L,L,R,R,R,R,L

The effort would be futile!

Hey, even Baker's '76 Dodgers went L,R,R,R,R,R,R,R. He must've loathed Walter Alston for that!

[Rantly]

The effort would be futile!

Hey, even Baker's '76 Dodgers went L,R,R,R,R,R,R,R. He must've loathed Walter Alston for that!

Ha Ha...never thought of that, they were right hand hitting heavy

[xsteve1]

When Ludwick comes back all of this will be mute. I don't care who bats second as long as they keep winning.

[Old school 1983]

When Ludwick comes back all of this will be mute. I don't care who bats second as long as they keep winning.

It depends on how ludwick does when he returns. He's 37, will be rusty, and is dealing with an injury that could effect his swing and power. I wish him the best but I'm not holding my breathe.

[RedsfaninMO]

This may not be popular on here, but I think Dusty should just move up Votto to 2nd behind Choo, Phillips 3rd and Bruce 4th. Why not have your best players get the most AB's in a game?

[Rantly]

This may not be popular on here, but I think Dusty should just move up Votto to 2nd behind Choo, Phillips 3rd and Bruce 4th. Why not have your best players get the most AB's in a game?

Its popular with me, See my Thread 5/9
Although the last couple of games Cozart has hit well

[Rantly]

It especially irks me when Cozart sits out and Izterus bats 2nd, he did that last year with Valdez, Cairo etc.

[Vottomatic]

Its popular with me, See my Thread 5/9
Although the last couple of games Cozart has hit well

I used to advocate moving Votto up to 2nd in the order.

But with Paul having an OBP of .400, I'd let him hit second against righties. Who cares if it's lefty, lefty, lefty.........well, besides Dusty. :D

[RedlegJake]

Vottomatic. I can just see your s/n and almost bet we'll be in agreement whatever you post about.

[Old school 1983]

I used to advocate moving Votto up to 2nd in the order.

But with Paul having an OBP of .400, I'd let him hit second against righties. Who cares if it's lefty, lefty, lefty.........well, besides Dusty. :D

I'm going with this. The only thing about Paul that scares me us his defense but at the plate thus far you really can't argue against him.

I really like what lutz has shown in left too. So that would be a concern. As a prospect he needs playing time to continue to develop.

[EMAW]

When I tell Uncle Dusty about the haters on here, he does all this stuff to just make all you experts mad

[Vottomatic]

I'm going with this. The only thing about Paul that scares me us his defense but at the plate thus far you really can't argue against him.

I really like what lutz has shown in left too. So that would be a concern. As a prospect he needs playing time to continue to develop.

I like what I've seen from Lutz so far too. But I also feel if he's in the long term plans of development maybe he should be back at Louisville playing every day.

I also wonder if he's being showcased for a trade.

Not sure who brought it up, maybe you..........but I would like to see Felix Perez maybe come up and show us what he's got. He's been batting over .300 for awhile now and really has nothing left to prove at Louisville. He isn't on the 40-man, but they could release Freeman to make room for him.

[Old school 1983]

I like what I've seen from Lutz so far too. But I also feel if he's in the long term plans of development maybe he should be back at Louisville playing every day.

I also wonder if he's being showcased for a trade.

Not sure who brought it up, maybe you..........but I would like to see Felix Perez maybe come up and show us what he's got. He's been batting over .300 for awhile now and really has nothing left to prove at Louisville. He isn't on the 40-man, but they could release Freeman to make room for him.

I'm thinking along the same lines as you on lutz. If you wanted to deal with guys on the 40 man maybe moving up Henry Rodriguez could be an option. Out him at third and Frazier in left. If Rodriguez can prove his value as a hitter, he has a very nice hitting skillset to put second in the order.

I mentioned Perez earlier. Right now he seems redundant with lutzs and Paul. He does look good in AAA though. Maybe he'll be a reds after a move come the deadline.

[Bob Sheed]

It depends on how ludwick does when he returns. He's 37, will be rusty, and is dealing with an injury that could effect his swing and power. I wish him the best but I'm not holding my breathe.

I feel the same way.

Even when/If Ludwick returns, I doubt he will hit the ground running.

I would be happy if Ludwick was got back to being healthy enough to offer a good bat off the bench. But I'm not even holding my breath for that.

[Vottomatic]

I feel the same way.

Even when/If Ludwick returns, I doubt he will hit the ground running.

I would be happy if Ludwick was got back to being healthy enough to offer a good bat off the bench. But I'm not even holding my breath for that.

I'm with you guys. I don't expect much from Ludwick when he gets back.

Many posters on Redszone are expecting a lot from him, as if he'll return and not miss a beat. I beg to differ. I'm concerned that management thinks the same way. I'm hopeful a trade will be made to bolster cleanup/LF.

I posted a new thread on the ORG showing the toughness of the upcoming schedule through July 4th. Reds have one of the toughest.

[Old school 1983]

I'm with you guys. I don't expect much from Ludwick when he gets back.

Many posters on Redszone are expecting a lot from him, as if he'll return and not miss a beat. I beg to differ. I'm concerned that management thinks the same way. I'm hopeful a trade will be made to bolster cleanup/LF.

I posted a new thread on the ORG showing the toughness of the upcoming schedule through July 4th. Reds have one of the toughest.

I'd like to see him do a lot, but you have to be realistic too. The reds schedule does get much tougher through July 4th. I'm glad cueto is back that should help, but I think the reds have to pick up the level of hitting as compared to the last time they went through a tough stretch of schedule.

[Don Cameron]

What is wrong with Cozart hitting second and Brandon Phillips hitting in the clean-up spot? This batting order is working well. There is no reason to change.

Don Cameron
A true lover of all things Holy

[tbl20]

I have to agree with you, but it looks like Cozart might be starting to turn it around. Remember how brilliant he was in a short span two years ago? And last year he was in the rookie of the year discussion for a while. I think he has the potential to be our number 2 hitter, and hopefully he is finally showing us.

www.theblownlead.com

[MillerTime58]

What is wrong with Cozart hitting second and Brandon Phillips hitting in the clean-up spot? This batting order is working well. There is no reason to change.

Don Cameron
A true lover of all things HolyRight now it is but it isn't going to last forever.

[Old school 1983]

Right now it is but it isn't going to last forever.

Winner winner chicken dinner. The team needs improved in a few areas to make a playoff run or even continue success over the course of the season. Ride whats hot and what we have while we can but at the deadline get a guy or two that'd help the reds arrange the lineup in a better way. You'd think after experiencing the 2011 regular season meltdown, and the 2012 postseason meltdown, reds fans would understand that we need to always be looking at ways to improve the club at the right cost.

[Don Cameron]

The only major spot for improvement for this club is the need for a left handed reliever.

UNDER A "FLAWED" LINE-UP, this team still leads the National League in Runs Per Game, is first in OBP, and second in OPS. The line-up for all intents anf purposes is working.

When I read these posts, basically every person that plays on the left side of the field should be replaced and sent packing. That is not how it is done with a TEAM.

Dusty CLEARLY defines roles for his players and then gives them a minimum...MINIMUM of 1/3 of a season to show what he can do in that role.

You cannot run a baseball team based on the short term.

In theory a solution to this team's two hitter would be a platoon with Robinson and Paul in left field, and then pencil in Cozart in the seventh position of the line-up. However, then against right handers you have three left handed hitters in a row, which plays perfectly for a left handed reliever in the 6th through 9th--unless you then bring in Robinson to pinch hit for Paul in those situations (which will then leave the bench with NO right handed threat off of the bench)

It is plausible, I suppose. However, when your lead off hitter is hitting .154 against left handed pitching, then do you bench him against left handers and then put Robinson lead off, and hit Cozart 2nd?

Dusty Baker has won over 1600 games in the major leagues. I trust in Dusty.

Don Cameron

A man who embraces loyalty

[Beltway]

I didn't read every post in this thread, so I don't know if it has already been mentioned, but I think Dusty also wants a good bunter hitting second. Cozart is second in MLB when it comes to sacrifice bunts.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/sacHits/type/expanded

[Rantly]

When I started this thread, I believe it was a night Cozart was sitting out and Izterus playing SS in his place was batting 2nd and went 0-5 and killed some rallies. Plus Cozart was really struggling. In retrospect, with Cozart making contact now and bunting well, the Reds winning and scoring runs this thread seems silly.......but that is why baseball is such a great game, plenty of second guessing and conversation, probably more than any sport

[Old school 1983]

The only major spot for improvement for this club is the need for a left handed reliever.

UNDER A "FLAWED" LINE-UP, this team still leads the National League in Runs Per Game, is first in OBP, and second in OPS. The line-up for all intents anf purposes is working.

When I read these posts, basically every person that plays on the left side of the field should be replaced and sent packing. That is not how it is done with a TEAM.

Dusty CLEARLY defines roles for his players and then gives them a minimum...MINIMUM of 1/3 of a season to show what he can do in that role.

You cannot run a baseball team based on the short term.

In theory a solution to this team's two hitter would be a platoon with Robinson and Paul in left field, and then pencil in Cozart in the seventh position of the line-up. However, then against right handers you have three left handed hitters in a row, which plays perfectly for a left handed reliever in the 6th through 9th--unless you then bring in Robinson to pinch hit for Paul in those situations (which will then leave the bench with NO right handed threat off of the bench)

It is plausible, I suppose. However, when your lead off hitter is hitting .154 against left handed pitching, then do you bench him against left handers and then put Robinson lead off, and hit Cozart 2nd?

Dusty Baker has won over 1600 games in the major leagues. I trust in Dusty.

Don Cameron

A man who embraces loyalty

There is a difference between flawed and incomplete. The reds lineup isn't flawed based upon the numbers they are putting up, but I have to ask could t it be a lot better? The whole left side of the infield isn't in question in my mind. I just like to bring up the fact that the need of a right handed power bat doesn't have to come in strictly the form of a left fielder. I'm fine with cozart at short and can live with Frazier at third if nothing better can be had. Looking at the reds lineup realistically they are one piece short in the fact that ludwick got hurt. Lets fill that void and try to add some speed if possible. No lineup is perfect and improvements at the right cost are welcome. I think our competition will improve theirselves at the deadline. Sitting on our hands would be foolish. Lets get a lefty reliever and a righty bat and maybe try to find a way to squeeze in Hamilton up here if he can continue improving his numbers in AAA.

[Beer&Bourbon]

I didn't read every post in this thread, so I don't know if it has already been mentioned, but I think Dusty also wants a good bunter hitting second. Cozart is second in MLB when it comes to sacrifice bunts.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/sacHits/type/expanded

Just because you can sacrifice bunt/hit doesn't mean you're necessarily good at it. On Tuesday night he had a sacrifice bunt that he popped up toward the pitcher with men on first and third. The guys on first and third didn't run because of the popup. When the pitcher dropped the pitch, he was able to throw out Choo on first leading to an out and no run scored.

I have to admit that he's performing much better now than he was, though. Still not a #2 man IMHO, but he's not generating an out every at bat like he had been doing.

[Beltway]

Just because you can sacrifice bunt/hit doesn't mean you're necessarily good at it. On Tuesday night he had a sacrifice bunt that he popped up toward the pitcher with men on first and third. The guys on first and third didn't run because of the popup. When the pitcher dropped the pitch, he was able to throw out Choo on first leading to an out and no run scored.

I have to admit that he's performing much better now than he was, though. Still not a #2 man IMHO, but he's not generating an out every at bat like he had been doing.
I wasn't claiming that Cozart was a good bunter or that I agree with Dusty's strategy. I was just trying to point out another possible reason he has Cozart hitting second.

My opinion on the matter is that Dusty is stuck in an 80s way of thinking, where teams would often have a bunter hit second. And the reason Cozart has so many sacrifices is because Dusty calls for him to sacrifice a lot, not because he's great at it. Giving up outs like this has been shown counter-productive in most situations (there are certain situations where it makes sense, but those are exceptions, not the rule). I don't agree with Dusty's strategy, nor do I believe Cozart should be hitting second. Over the course of the entire season, Cozart will end up with more PAs than Phillips, Votto, and Bruce because of this, and that's a bad thing.