Miguel Cabrera Tossed mid AB

[Ironman92]

Bases loaded....2nd AB

1st pitch was framed strangely....but ok and ump calls strike. Cabrera says something softly and calmly to him....next pitch (looked good but Miggy didn't think so)....said something else not much excitement at all.....and Chad Fairchild tossed him.

I know you can't argue the zone and font want MLB to be NBA like....but I don't like this.


I remember going to a Reds game and Dunn was tossed after his first AB and I was hot because Dunn didn't have much energy on his comments and was walking away a but.

I know....rules are rules, but can't you just answer the question and then ignore? Not one person was there to see Chad Fairchild.

Look what it takes to get ejected in the NFL or NBA.....I don't want constant complaining but he was not being demonstrative at all and simply not worthy of ejection.

[RedEye]

Depends on what Cabrera said.

[Ironman92]

Depends on what Cabrera said.

It looked harmless. Definitely no f bombs and didn't appear to even cuss.

[RedEye]

It looked harmless. Definitely no f bombs and didn't appear to even cuss.

Anyway, I doubt we'll ever know. Some of the worst insults can be said softly.

[VR]

It looked harmless. Definitely no f bombs and didn't appear to even cuss.

For Cabrera, I'd be looking for p bombs.

[jojo]

Pretty ridiculous. MLB needs to reform this aspect of the game and in a hurry.

[moewan]

I was at the game and Miggy definatly had some words for Fairchild. What I want to know is what Leyland was saying to the second base ump after he got tossed. Leyland was angrily pointing at him and yelling something.

[cumberlandreds]

I didn't see this but when you said Chad Fairchild that's all I need to know. He's a horrible ball and strike umpire. I've hardly seen a game he's done behind the plate that their hasn't been big problems.

[*BaseClogger*]

For Cabrera, I'd be looking for p bombs.

Or Jager bombs...

[SporkLover]

Bases loaded....2nd AB

1st pitch was framed strangely....but ok and ump calls strike. Cabrera says something softly and calmly to him....next pitch (looked good but Miggy didn't think so)....said something else not much excitement at all.....and Chad Fairchild tossed him.

I'm on the fence. Although Miggy certainly did not look emotional nor animated, Fairchild said he warned him to not argue the strike zone. If Miggy didn't heed that warning, then perhaps he earned it.

[Chip R]

It looked harmless. Definitely no f bombs and didn't appear to even cuss.

It doesn't necessarily take f bombs to get ejected. In his autobiography Leo Durocher said there were certain umpires you could say anything to except certain words - that weren't swear words - and you'd get ejected. One example he used was an umpire - I believe his name was Frank Dascoli - took a young lady up to his room one night and neglected to pull the shades down while he was entertaining her. There happened to be some ballplayers across the way who saw this and word got around the league. So anytime you said "Pull the shades down, Frank" to him, it was an automatic ejection.

[Ironman92]

It doesn't necessarily take f bombs to get ejected. In his autobiography Leo Durocher said there were certain umpires you could say anything to except certain words - that weren't swear words - and you'd get ejected. One example he used was an umpire - I believe his name was Frank Dascoli - took a young lady up to his room one night and neglected to pull the shades down while he was entertaining her. There happened to be some ballplayers across the way who saw this and word got around the league. So anytime you said "Pull the shades down, Frank" to him, it was an automatic ejection.

And that's a ridiculous reason to eject a player.

Some umpires just think they are the most important people in the world.....right up there with health inspectors and fire marshalls

[New York Red]

Complaining about balls and strikes calls in baseball is as pointless as arguing the block/charge call in basketball. If you're expecting a human being to make a blink-of-an-eye call with 100% accuracy, on a play that can be decided by a half inch or less, you're going to be disappointed more often than not.

[Ironman92]

Complaining about balls and strikes calls in baseball is as pointless as arguing the block/charge call in basketball. If you're expecting a human being to make a blink-of-an-eye call with 100% accuracy, on a play that can be decided by a half inch or less, you're going to be disappointed more often than not.

Agree....but when LeBron (without even making his cringe face) says to the ref that he missed that one...and then the next time down the court gets called for another foul and again without being demonstrative says he disagreed again....you don't toss him from the game.

[New York Red]

Agree....but when LeBron (without even making his cringe face) says to the ref that he missed that one...and then the next time down the court gets called for another foul and again without being demonstrative says he disagreed again....you don't toss him from the game.
Well, there was that game in which the ref called Lebron for several ticky tack fouls until he fouled him out. I believe the ref was reprimanded, and maybe even suspended, after it was reviewed by the league. The same ref T'd up Tim Duncan the previous season for laughing while sitting on the bench. An SEC ref, Doug Shows, has been known to T coaches up for just looking at him. Some refs/umps have "quick trigger" reputations, so it's best to leave those guys alone. I have no idea what Miggy said in this case, but I know he's never going to win that argument.

[George Anderson]

And that's a ridiculous reason to eject a player.

Some umpires just think they are the most important people in the world.....right up there with health inspectors and fire marshalls

Personal comments get you dumped every time.

[Ironman92]

Well, there was that game in which the ref called Lebron for several ticky tack fouls until he fouled him out. I believe the ref was reprimanded, and maybe even suspended, after it was reviewed by the league. The same ref T'd up Tim Duncan the previous season for laughing while sitting on the bench. An SEC ref, Doug Shows, has been known to T coaches up for just looking at him. Some refs/umps have "quick trigger" reputations, so it's best to leave those guys alone. I have no idea what Miggy said in this case, but I know he's never going to win that argument.

I keep agreeing.....these guys need fined themselves. No one bought the ticket to see the officials. If their feelings get hurt that easily they shouldn't be out there.

[Ironman92]

Personal comments get you dumped every time.

They didn't converse hardly at all.

Strike 1

MC....what? That missed.
CF....I saw a strike.
MC....shakes head, "no way man"

Strike 2

MC....that ball is outside, you can't call both of those a strike.
CF....they were both strikes now get in the box
MC....no way, you won't call that **** again.

CF....you're outta here!

[George Anderson]

They didn't converse hardly at all.

Strike 1

MC....what? That missed.
CF....I saw a strike.
MC....shakes head, "no way man"

Strike 2

MC....that ball is outside, you can't call both of those a strike.
CF....they were both strikes now get in the box
MC....no way, you won't call that **** again.
CF....you're outta here!

He made the mistake of saying ''you"". That is the wrong way to address an umpire during a dispute. Cabrera was warned previously and he didn't obide by the warning so he was ejected. Pretty simple.

This personal attack and the other personal attack in the Durocher reference above are easy ejections.

[Norm Chortleton]

Here's Cabrera's version of what happened:


After the first pitch, Cabrera said: “I asked him what was going on? Next pitch was up and away, and I said, ‘That’s horrible’ and he said, ‘You called me horrible,’ and he throw me out.”
I've seen the video several times and lip reading seems to back Cabrera up. Except that he did add an "effing" between "That's" and "horrible."

IMO, a major league player should be able to say, "That's effing horrible" without being run.


Cabrera tossed (http://www.freep.com/article/20130729/SPORTS02/307290023/Detroit-Tigers-12-Philadephia-4-Miguel-Cabrera-tossed-Phillies-swept)

[Ironman92]

He made the mistake of saying ''you"". That is the wrong way to address an umpire during a dispute. Cabrera was warned previously and he didn't obide by the warning so he was ejected. Pretty simple.

This personal attack and the other personal attack in the Durocher reference above are easy ejections.

So he was appropriately tossed because he said "you".....that's sensational.

Is there a sign that says that? If so he'll never make the HOF.

It's ridiculous to toss him...I'd rather him screw him over on a couple more calls as in....you keep complaining and I'll give you an appropriate reason to complain.

Cabrera got a speeding ticket for going 56 in a 55 mph zone. Equally stupid.

[George Anderson]

So he was appropriately tossed because he said "you".....that's sensational.

Is there a sign that says that? If so he'll never make the HOF.

It's ridiculous to toss him...I'd rather him screw him over on a couple more calls as in....you keep complaining and I'll give you an appropriate reason to complain.

Cabrera got a speeding ticket for going 56 in a 55 mph zone. Equally stupid.

It is well known in the game of baseball you do not directly refer to the umpire as "you" when disputing a call. You can say "that was a bad call" or "that play wasn't close" etc.. but once you make a comment directly to an umpire along the lines of " you missed that call" then that is deemed a personal attack and should be an automatic ejection. All players and managers above little league know this.

[Ironman92]

I'm 39 and have watched way too much, played too much and coached too much and I've never heard such a thing.....and regardless it's still stupid.

[Wonderful Monds]

I'm 39 and have watched way too much, played too much and coached too much and I've never heard such a thing.....and regardless it's still stupid.

Nah man, you better kiss the ring.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I'm 39 and have watched way too much, played too much and coached too much and I've never heard such a thing.....and regardless it's still stupid.

I don't disagree that it's kinda dumb....but George is spot on. This is a known way of things in the bigs. Miggy knew it too.

FWIW, not every ump will eject for this, some are more lenient than others...but again, the players know which ones are which. Especially the veteran players and the veteran umps.

[New York Red]

It is well known in the game of baseball you do not directly refer to the umpire as "you" when disputing a call. You can say "that was a bad call" or "that play wasn't close" etc.. but once you make a comment directly to an umpire along the lines of " you missed that call" then that is deemed a personal attack and should be an automatic ejection. All players and managers above little league know this.
I played baseball for 14 years, coached for a few more, watched my entire life and spent the last 20 years talking it on the internet ... and I have never in my life heard of this unwritten "rule". I know certain refs and umps have specific words they won't put up with, but when did "you" become one of those words?

[Norm Chortleton]

He got tossed for saying, "That's effing horrible," not for addressing the umpire as "you."

[New York Red]

He got tossed for saying, "That's effing horrible," not for addressing the umpire as "you."
That would be my guess as well.

[_Sir_Charles_]

He got tossed for saying, "That's effing horrible," not for addressing the umpire as "you."

And if he said "you're effing horrible"...does that change things? I think it does.

Bottom line....you can't argue balls and strikes...especially with profanity.

And fwiw...check out where the pitches were. Not even close to borderline. Closer to the heart of the strikezone than borderline. Excellent pitches.

[George Anderson]

I played baseball for 14 years, coached for a few more, watched my entire life and spent the last 20 years talking it on the internet ... and I have never in my life heard of this unwritten "rule". I know certain refs and umps have specific words they won't put up with, but when did "you" become one of those words?

It always has been as long as I have been umpiring for 17 years and I was taught by many ex pro's. I know in the pro game as well as the college and most HS level games the unwritten rule also is applied. If you coached or played above LL ( I am not trying to be demeaning) I am surprised you were not aware of it.

Now there are instances where the phrase can be used that you wouldn't dump someone. It all is in an umpires judgment. A coach can say in a very subtle tone " I can't believe you made that call" which depending on the umpire likely won't get him ejected. However you could have another instance where a coach is screaming or just simply saying "you are awful" which of course is an automatic ejection when instead if he simply said or screamed "that's awful" then he likely would not be ejected but still would most likely get his point across.

[Norm Chortleton]

And if he said "you're effing horrible"...does that change things? I think it does.


I'm sure it would. But I don't think that's what he said. It didn't look like it on the replay. And I don't think he would have been so surprised; he had a look of shock on his face when he was ejected.

[George Anderson]

I'm sure it would. But I don't think that's what he said. It didn't look like it on the replay. And I don't think he would have been so surprised; he had a look of shock on his face when he was ejected.

Did anyone see anything from the grassy knoll?

[New York Red]

It always has been as long as I have been umpiring for 17 years and I was taught by many ex pro's. I know in the pro game as well as the college and most HS level games the unwritten rule also is applied. If you coached or played above LL ( I am not trying to be demeaning) I am surprised you were not aware of it.

Now there are instances where the phrase can be used that you wouldn't dump someone. It all is in an umpires judgment. A coach can say in a very subtle tone " I can't believe you made that call" which depending on the umpire likely won't get him ejected. However you could have another instance where a coach is screaming or just simply saying "you are awful" which of course is an automatic ejection when instead if he simply said or screamed "that's awful" then he likely would not be ejected but still would most likely get his point across.
I played from t-ball all the way through high school, and even played sparingly as a walk-on in college for a year before focusing on academics. Then later in life I coached five different years at the LL and Babe Ruth levels. I was always taught as a player that you don't say a word to the umps; let the coaches say whatever needed to be said about a call, and that's what I taught my players as well. I've attended hundreds of games live at the Major League, Minor League, College and High School levels, and have honestly never seen anyone tossed, or even warned, for saying "you". This is news to me, but thanks for passing it along. Interesting stuff.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Did anyone see anything from the grassy knoll?

Nice. Made me chuckle. :O)

[_Sir_Charles_]

I'm sure it would. But I don't think that's what he said. It didn't look like it on the replay. And I don't think he would have been so surprised; he had a look of shock on his face when he was ejected.

Maybe he didn't, but the ump thought he heard that. Who knows. Regardless of what he said...whether it was personal or not...arguing balls and strikes is grounds for ejection. Toss in profanity WHILE arguing balls and strikes, it's pretty much automatic. Obviously some umps are more forgiving about this stuff than others. I could understand a rookie making this kind of mistake (of not knowing which ump you can question like that and which you can't) but a vet like Miggy...he knows better and I bet he knows this ump very well.

[Norm Chortleton]

According to Fairchild, he ejected Cabrera for simply arguing balls and strikes.

Plate umpire Chad Fairchild explains why he ejected Detroit Tigers' Miguel Cabrera: 'I warned him to stop' (http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2013/07/plate_umpire_chad_fairchild_ex.html)

[George Anderson]

I played from t-ball all the way through high school, and even played sparingly as a walk-on in college for a year before focusing on academics. Then later in life I coached five different years at the LL and Babe Ruth levels. I was always taught as a player that you don't say a word to the umps; let the coaches say whatever needed to be said about a call, and that's what I taught my players as well. I've attended hundreds of games live at the Major League, Minor League, College and High School levels, and have honestly never seen anyone tossed, or even warned, for saying "you". This is news to me, but thanks for passing it along. Interesting stuff.

"People always want to know whether there’s a magic word. Is it ‘(vulgarity)r’? Is it ‘(vulgarity)? No. The magic word is 'you.'"—Umpire Gary Cederstrom
—As They See ’Em: A Fan’s Travels in the Land of Umpires, by Bruce Weber

http://www.fld9.org/documents/HowToArgueWithAnUmpire.pdf (see note 8)


This has nothing to do with the word "you" but still good for those who get in a tizzy over why umpires so things the way they do.

http://www.llumpires.com/commentary/things-id-like-to-say/to-catchers.html

[George Anderson]

According to Fairchild, he ejected Cabrera for simply arguing balls and strikes.

Plate umpire Chad Fairchild explains why he ejected Detroit Tigers' Miguel Cabrera: 'I warned him to stop' (http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2013/07/plate_umpire_chad_fairchild_ex.html)

Solid work by Fairchild.

[Ironman92]

Nah man, you better kiss the ring.

Your post addressed me as "you" and I've umpired. Therefore, banned from posting for one day is your punishment.

[Ironman92]

I played baseball for 14 years, coached for a few more, watched my entire life and spent the last 20 years talking it on the internet ... and I have never in my life heard of this unwritten "rule". I know certain refs and umps have specific words they won't put up with, but when did "you" become one of those words?

If they aren't addressed as "blue" immediate ejection. If they are called purple or green they get ticked.

[757690]

According to Fairchild, he ejected Cabrera for simply arguing balls and strikes.

Plate umpire Chad Fairchild explains why he ejected Detroit Tigers' Miguel Cabrera: 'I warned him to stop' (http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2013/07/plate_umpire_chad_fairchild_ex.html)

That makes sense. The rule book is clear. Argue balls and strikes and you get warned. Do it again, you're tossed. I have no problem with that.

[George Anderson]

If they aren't addressed as "blue" immediate ejection. If they are called purple or green they get ticked.

A lot of umpires prefer to be called by their name. "Blue" is not an endearing term. My name, Ump or sir is acceptable to me.

[Ironman92]

It always has been as long as I have been umpiring for 17 years and I was taught by many ex pro's. I know in the pro game as well as the college and most HS level games the unwritten rule also is applied. If you coached or played above LL ( I am not trying to be demeaning) I am surprised you were not aware of it.

Now there are instances where the phrase can be used that you wouldn't dump someone. It all is in an umpires judgment. A coach can say in a very subtle tone " I can't believe you made that call" which depending on the umpire likely won't get him ejected. However you could have another instance where a coach is screaming or just simply saying "you are awful" which of course is an automatic ejection when instead if he simply said or screamed "that's awful" then he likely would not be ejected but still would most likely get his point across.

Nice humble brag. I played in college and have coached in the regional finals for my humble brag.

I do not care what the reasonings are....the crime doesn't fit the punishment and umpires are often too thin skinned and feel like the game can't go on without them....even though no one is there to see them.

I agree a million percent the calls were correct. I agree 0% for Cabrera getting tossed.

I'm moving on....I know the argument will just continue the same and none of us are going to change our opinions.

Have a good day.

Go Reds!

[New York Red]

"People always want to know whether there’s a magic word. Is it ‘(vulgarity)r’? Is it ‘(vulgarity)? No. The magic word is 'you.'"—Umpire Gary Cederstrom
—As They See ’Em: A Fan’s Travels in the Land of Umpires, by Bruce Weber

http://www.fld9.org/documents/HowToArgueWithAnUmpire.pdf (see note 8)


This has nothing to do with the word "you" but still good for those who get in a tizzy over why umpires so things the way they do.

http://www.llumpires.com/commentary/things-id-like-to-say/to-catchers.html
Thanks for the links.

I'm one of those rare fans who actually appreciate the difficult job umps and refs have. That's why you will rarely ever see me cry about a call. There are fans who start complaining about calls as soon as the game starts and don't let up until the outcome is decided. It would suck to be one of those fans, because it seems it would make enjoying the actual game impossible.

[George Anderson]

Nice humble brag. I played in college and have coached in the regional finals for my humble brag.

I do not care what the reasonings are....the crime doesn't fit the punishment and umpires are often too thin skinned and feel like the game can't go on without them....even though no one is there to see them.

I agree a million percent the calls were correct. I agree 0% for Cabrera getting tossed.

I'm moving on....I know the argument will just continue the same and none of us are going to change our opinions.

Have a good day.

Go Reds!

Oh um one last humble brag then , I have umpired farther than you have coached. ;)

[Ironman92]

A lot of umpires prefer to be called by their name. "Blue" is not an endearing term. My name, Ump or sir is acceptable to me.

I don't argue with umps......I make nice, get along with what they might like and tell them good call immediately as they make the call and let them hear it again on my way to the dugout. I leave most games pretty happy with the umpires...but I know how to work them.

Challenging an ump rarely benefits you unless you are a pretty high standing person.....Don Mattingly growled and got calls for the better part of 2 games.....but some umps have rabbit ears and are looking for problems so they can puff out their chest and be the guy in charge of the world.

[Ironman92]

Oh um one last humble brag then , I have umpired farther than you have coached. ;)

That means very little to me. I know nothing about how you umpire but the guys I know in the Ohio HOF for umpiring are just not very good (but man they think they are) and the two guys I know who have worked state championship games.....average high school umps.

Again....you may be the best ump ever, but your statement combined with my experiences make your statement mean very little to me.

[Razor Shines]

A lot of umpires prefer to be called by their name. "Blue" is not an endearing term. My name, Ump or sir is acceptable to me.

I ump'd with a guy who took being called "blue" the same as a police officer being called "pig".

[Razor Shines]

That means very little to me. I know nothing about how you umpire but the guys I know in the Ohio HOF for umpiring are just not very good (but man they think they are) and the two guys I know who have worked state championship games.....average high school umps.

Again....you may be the best ump ever, but your statement combined with my experiences make your statement mean very little to me.

Whatever dude, George coached me and we won the championship of our Little League when I was 14. Nothing higher than that.

[Ironman92]

Whatever dude, George coached me and we won the championship of our Little League when I was 14. Nothing higher than that.

I got the "14" part. Lol The shaving clean up hitter!

[Chip R]

A lot of umpires prefer to be called by their name. "Blue" is not an endearing term. My name, Ump or sir is acceptable to me.

Really? I did not know that. The first time I heard someone use that term was a coach we had in HS who played semi-pro on the side. I never took it as a derogatory term, though.

[George Anderson]

Whatever dude, George coached me and we won the championship of our Little League when I was 14. Nothing higher than that.

Yep, you were quite the third baseman.

[George Anderson]

Really? I did not know that. The first time I heard someone use that term was a coach we had in HS who played semi-pro on the side. I never took it as a derogatory term, though.

Maybe derogatory isn't the right term. Just a lot of umps I know especially higher up on the food chain prefer ump or really just their name.

[Norm Chortleton]

Who do you think is the best ump of all time? I'm torn between Nestor Chylak, Doug Harvey and Enrico Pallazzo.

[moewan]

Who do you think is the best ump of all time? I'm torn between Nestor Chylak, Doug Harvey and Enrico Pallazzo.

Ron Luciano

[Ironman92]

Kerwin Danley is easily the best ump of all-time.