GABP upgrades could cost county taxpayers $5 million

[Matt700wlw]

http://cmsimg.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=AB&Date=20130731&Category=NEWS010801&ArtNo=307310061&Ref=AR&MaxW=640&Border=0&EXCLUSIVE-All-Star-Game-could-cost-taxpayers-5-million

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130731/NEWS010801/307310061/EXCLUSIVE-All-Star-Game-could-clost-taxpayers-5-million

[KronoRed]

So it's $6 million for Great American and $21.8 million for Paul Brown Stadium, a place that gets 1/10th the use.

Nice that some things never change.

[texasdave]

Is that 5 million meant for an upgrade at shortstop? :)

[bucksfan2]

A lot of this could depend on how it plays in the public. I think the Reds have done an absolutely fantastic job changing the ball park. They put in a state of the art HD video screen without asking for a dime from the taxpayer. They have made the park much more fan friendly during the Castellini's tenure.

The main question I want to know about the $5M in improvements, is how much money the All-Star week will bring to the area.

[redsmetz]

A lot of this could depend on how it plays in the public. I think the Reds have done an absolutely fantastic job changing the ball park. They put in a state of the art HD video screen without asking for a dime from the taxpayer. They have made the park much more fan friendly during the Castellini's tenure.

The main question I want to know about the $5M in improvements, is how much money the All-Star week will bring to the area.

Not surprising that the Enquirer left that little bit of info out of their article. An article earlier this year estimated the economic impact to be about $80M.

http://www.kypost.com/dpps/news/local_news/economic-impact-for-all-star-game-could-reach-80-million_8188144

[Blitz Dorsey]

That's $2 million LESS than Jonathan Broxton makes all season.

Sounds like a bargain for Hamilton County if you ask me.

[The Voice of IH]

The exterior needs concrete repair, painting and waterproofing. The interior needs rust removal and re-coating of metal decks. Also needed: updates to the public address, heating and air conditioning, security and fire prevention systems. The club house, press box and Diamond Club need waterproofing; the press box and other areas need new carpets and the kitchen needs new floors, according to the memo.

Is it me, or does this make Great American sound like a dump? I've been there plenty of times this season, it's fine! This just seems like an excuse to waste tax payer money. I want to follow this money and see where it eventually ends up.

[Todd Gack]

So it's $6 million for Great American and $21.8 million for Paul Brown Stadium, a place that gets 1/10th the use.

Nice that some things never change.

Quitting being a Bengals fans is starting to look better and better each day.

[Boston Red]

Is it me, or does this make Great American sound like a dump? I've been there plenty of times this season, it's fine! This just seems like an excuse to waste tax payer money. I want to follow this money and see where it eventually ends up.

Sounds to me like this money is intended to keep it from becoming a dump instead of fixing it once it actually becomes a dump (which would be much more expensive).

[Tony Cloninger]

Is this really news? Taxpayer money is used for something (insert something here) People are upset that it is being used for that something and a call to arms to get out and vote to change things. Change what? Taxes are a part of life. How they are sometimes used can be frustrating but no one is ever happy about how it is ever used in the first place or why we are being taxed.

[Sea Ray]

I have no problem with $5 mill for GABP. First of all that sounds like very little maintenance/upkeep over the next two yrs for a facility that's a dozen yrs old. Considering the impact of the All Star game it's a huge win/win.

The Bengals are a different story. They are working off of a sweetheart lease that our county gov't never should have agreed to. And now to make matters more shady, the Bengals now employ the guy who negotiated that lease with the team. Isn't there some law that prevents that? I guess not but he knows every clause in that lease and can alert Mike Brown what he can do to take advantage of it. I was thrilled when the taxpayers agreed to build a new stadium for the Bengals and keep them in town but I hated the way the county spent that money. They let Mike Brown take them to the cleaners and I said so at the time. Bedinghaus came across as an idiot so the voters rightly removed him but now he's working for the other side. It doesn't smell right but the bottomline is the taxpayers are screwed

[Beatlessp]

Is it me, or does this make Great American sound like a dump? I've been there plenty of times this season, it's fine! This just seems like an excuse to waste tax payer money. I want to follow this money and see where it eventually ends up.

I wouldn't say dump, but there are some smaller things that I notice at the game I went to earlier this summer...I mean c'mon, the smokestacks are almost pink the paint is so sun faded....overall a fantastic ballpark, just needs some touch ups.

[Rock of Truth]

The exterior needs concrete repair, painting and waterproofing. The interior needs rust removal and re-coating of metal decks. Also needed: updates to the public address, heating and air conditioning, security and fire prevention systems. The club house, press box and Diamond Club need waterproofing; the press box and other areas need new carpets and the kitchen needs new floors, according to the memo.


Why does the article try and make it sound like these are things that are due to the All-Star game? All of these things would need to be done even if the ASG was not coming to Cincy. The joys of Home Ownership.

[redsmetz]

Why does the article try and make it sound like these are things that are due to the All-Star game? All of these things would need to be done even if the ASG was not coming to Cincy. The joys of Home Ownership.

This is how the Enquirer does the news anymore - give something a sensational bent and watch the fireworks.

[Falcon7]

I think it's great that Millionaires get their version of what amount's to welfare, (public assistance, tax breaks ect.) That is the American Way!

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

Quitting being a Bengals fans is starting to look better and better each day.

Bad timing on your part. This team looks really really good.

And PBS is in need of new video boards big time.

[REDREAD]

Is it me, or does this make Great American sound like a dump? I've been there plenty of times this season, it's fine! This just seems like an excuse to waste tax payer money. I want to follow this money and see where it eventually ends up.

I think the GAB is ok.. but I don't see that stuff they mentioned (carpet, etc)
However, it was well publicized that John Allen did extensive "value engineering" on parts of the ballpark to reduce the amount of money the Reds had to pay. Looks like some of that stuff is wearing out and needs to be replaced.. Allen/Lindner.. the curse that keeps on giving..

[Chip R]

I think the GAB is ok.. but I don't see that stuff they mentioned (carpet, etc)
However, it was well publicized that John Allen did extensive "value engineering" on parts of the ballpark to reduce the amount of money the Reds had to pay. Looks like some of that stuff is wearing out and needs to be replaced.. Allen/Lindner.. the curse that keeps on giving..

The stadium is 11 years old. It's not like the stadium is falling apart.

[REDREAD]

The stadium is 11 years old. It's not like the stadium is falling apart.

Yep, I agree that overall it's in good shape.
Still, if a lot of the floors are worn out after 11 years, maybe they didn't use the greatest materials to begin with?
I understand, this is a commerical setting, but still.. 81 games/year X 11 years .. that means the floors have about 2.5 years of "real life" on them.
Sure, maybe some parts of the GAB are used on other days, but it seems that they didn't exactly get top of the line stuff.

Now you are right, some of it is probably normal maintenance.

[dabvu2498]

During the "evacuation" of the grandstand during the Saturday game vs the Pirates a couple weeks ago, my group huddled near the entrance to the press box. Around that area there were quite a few spots where you could see some rusty spots at junctions of the steel superstructure. If you were just breezing through, you wouldn't have noticed. But since we were there the better part of an hour, we noticed. The place is no where near falling apart but there are some cosmetic things that could be done to spruce it up. $5 million for sprucing up an 11 year old building of that nature sounds about right to me. Admittedly, I'm not a Hamilton County resident.

[Chip R]

Yep, I agree that overall it's in good shape.
Still, if a lot of the floors are worn out after 11 years, maybe they didn't use the greatest materials to begin with?
I understand, this is a commerical setting, but still.. 81 games/year X 11 years .. that means the floors have about 2.5 years of "real life" on them.
Sure, maybe some parts of the GAB are used on other days, but it seems that they didn't exactly get top of the line stuff.

Now you are right, some of it is probably normal maintenance.

How long do things last in your house? Do you have 20K people going through it 81 times a year? Do you ever spruce it up when the relatives are coming over? Are you going to hold an event there in a couple of years that is going to be on national TV for everyone to see?

As for not using the top of the line stuff, let's say they didn't. They were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. If they used the top of the line stuff, it would have made the cost of the stadium more expensive. So, to give the taxpayers a break, they get some stuff that is not top of the line. Now they have to replace it and that's going to cost some more money. John Allen and Carl Lindner are gone. Let it go.

[kaldaniels]

This is how the Enquirer does the news anymore - give something a sensational bent and watch the fireworks.

Yeah, shame on the headline.


EXCLUSIVE: All-Star Game could cost taxpayers $5 million

Talk about missing the big picture.

[Hoosier Red]

I have no problem with $5 mill for GABP. First of all that sounds like very little maintenance/upkeep over the next two yrs for a facility that's a dozen yrs old. Considering the impact of the All Star game it's a huge win/win.

The Bengals are a different story. They are working off of a sweetheart lease that our county gov't never should have agreed to. And now to make matters more shady, the Bengals now employ the guy who negotiated that lease with the team. Isn't there some law that prevents that? I guess not but he knows every clause in that lease and can alert Mike Brown what he can do to take advantage of it. I was thrilled when the taxpayers agreed to build a new stadium for the Bengals and keep them in town but I hated the way the county spent that money. They let Mike Brown take them to the cleaners and I said so at the time. Bedinghaus came across as an idiot so the voters rightly removed him but now he's working for the other side. It doesn't smell right but the bottomline is the taxpayers are screwed

I think someone could probably have raised a stink about the potential for fraud when the deal was signed or shortly thereafter.

However, my guess is Mike Brown was alerting Bedinghaus to every clause in the contract before the county signed it. :)

[terminator]

Allen/Lindner.. the curse that keeps on giving..

On the baseball side, if nothing else he kept the team in town and under local ownership, laid some of the groundwork for the team's current success and made a great choice in selling to Castellini.

I get that you don't like Mr. Lindner since you've taken the opportunity to trash him here dozens of times over the years (sometimes mild, sometimes nasty). I just wish you would consider that many of us here in Cincinnati loved the man. Aside from my own father, there is no one in this world I have ever admired more. I doubt anyone in the last fifty years did more for the city of Cincinnati. So maybe out of respect for the man, for those of us who loved him and for everything he did for this town, you could cut him some slack and quit running him down at every opportunity. I know I would appreciate it.

[Tom Servo]

On the baseball side, if nothing else he kept the team in town and under local ownership, laid some of the groundwork for the team's current success and made a great choice in selling to Castellini.

I get that you don't like Mr. Lindner since you've taken the opportunity to trash him here dozens of times over the years (sometimes mild, sometimes nasty). I just wish you would consider that many of us here in Cincinnati loved the man. Aside from my own father, there is no one in this world I have ever admired more. I doubt anyone in the last fifty years did more for the city of Cincinnati. So maybe out of respect for the man, for those of us who loved him and for everything he did for this town, you could cut him some slack and quit running him down at every opportunity. I know I would appreciate it.
I'd say you're probably taking REDREAD's comments too personally. Now granted I can't offhand recall everything he has said about Lindner, but I don't recall him disparaging Lindner as a person or a citizen, just as the owner of the Reds. And I'm sorry if it offends you, but it's awfully hard to find anybody who thinks the Lindner ownership of the Cincinnati Reds was anything short of bad.

Now as for REDREAD's John Allen, that's another story. :laugh:

[Todd Gack]

Bad timing on your part. This team looks really really good.

And PBS is in need of new video boards big time.

I quit in the midst of their good run. How anyone can root for a team owned by Mikey is beyond me. But that's for a different discussion.

[TeamBoone]

That's $2 million LESS than Jonathan Broxton makes all season.

Sounds like a bargain for Hamilton County if you ask me.

For Hamilton County, not the taxpayers who will be footing the $5 million dollars. They won't see a penny of it back.

Why does the ballpark need a $5 million upgrade anyway? It's not like it's a dump. It's a beautiful park just the way it is.

[kaldaniels]

For Hamilton County, not the taxpayers who will be footing the $5 million dollars. They won't see a penny of it back.

Why does the ballpark need a $5 million upgrade anyway? It's not like it's a dump. It's a beautiful park just the way it is.

If the county I lived in said we are going to spend a couple million in hopes of bringing in more than that in revenue on a pretty safe investment, I'd be cool with it.

That's all it is, an investment to bring a top-line attraction to town. And without Mr. Millionaire's stadium, that attraction isn't coming.

And sure, most renovations would have probably had to be done anyway at some point, but when the ASG is considering Cincy, one of the conditions is a tip-top stadium in 2015. So bargains are made.

Is it an ideal thing, using taxpayer money, nah. But overall it's a net win for the county, it's residents, and it's bottom line.

[Sea Ray]

I think someone could probably have raised a stink about the potential for fraud when the deal was signed or shortly thereafter.

However, my guess is Mike Brown was alerting Bedinghaus to every clause in the contract before the county signed it. :)

I know I was at the time. I was telling people in the last century things like "you mean to tell me that in the last 10 years of this lease we'll be paying the Bengals to play here?" It sounds nuts at the time and I'm dunbfounded that our gov't agreed to such a thing

[Rock of Truth]

The more I think about it, $5 million is absolutely nothing compared to the revenue that is now flowing through the streets of Cincinnati due to the Reds. Walk out the front door of GABP and look at the Banks. That is a hotbed of city revenue. If not for the Reds, that is just a parking lot. Are they 100% responsible for the resurgence? No. But they certainly had a hand in it.

[KittyDuran]

For Hamilton County, not the taxpayers who will be footing the $5 million dollars. They won't see a penny of it back.

Why does the ballpark need a $5 million upgrade anyway? It's not like it's a dump. It's a beautiful park just the way it is.It is a beautiful park just the way it is... but unfortunately it needs some touchups. Especially this:


The interior needs rust removal and re-coating of metal decks.

This is what the average fan sees... average being a non-premium ticket holder. Just as dabvu2498 said:


Around that area there were quite a few spots where you could see some rusty spots at junctions of the steel superstructure. If you were just breezing through, you wouldn't have noticed. But since we were there the better part of an hour, we noticed. The place is no where near falling apart but there are some cosmetic things that could be done to spruce it up. $5 million for sprucing up an 11 year old building of that nature sounds about right to me. Admittedly, I'm not a Hamilton County resident.

At the end dabvu2498 said that he is not a Hamilton County resident but based on this blurb if you attend a game or shop in Hamilton County some of the money is coming from that sales tax...


Stadium repairs are paid out of the stadium fund, which is financed with a half-cent sales tax paid by anyone who shops in Hamilton County. The fund pays for debt service, maintenance and capital projects at the stadiums, a payment to Cincinnati Public Schools in lieu of property taxes and a promised property tax rebate.

BTW, I work in Hamilton County but live in Butler County, and purchase most of my groceries and other items in Hamilton County either on my way home (Northgate) or at lunch.

[Caveat Emperor]

Every building needs routine maintenance done -- especially a building that is used by millions of people on a yearly basis and sits exposed to the elements.

This should be unshocking to anyone that owns a home or maintains a property.

[Eric from NC]

This does seem pretty reasonable. In comparison the Carolina Panthers wanted 150-300 million in taxpayer upgrades for a stadium where 90% of the seats require a permanent seat license, and they only allow about one non Panther event a year. As others have said, the hotel and rental car fees for the All Star game would probably cover a huge chunk of the 5M.

[KittyDuran]

Last night I took some pics (w/iPhone) of some of the rust damage - I'll post some later. I would hope that some of the money goes for better towel and TP dispensers.

[KittyDuran]

Bumping this up...

I posted some of the rust and bird damage on one of my blogs...

http://allmyphotos.tumblr.com/

[BurgervilleBuck]

Quitting being a Bengals fans is starting to look better and better each day.

It was the best decision I ever made, that's for sure. :)

[paulrichjr]

Bumping this up...

I posted some of the rust and bird damage on one of my blogs...

http://allmyphotos.tumblr.com/

After seeing those I vote we tear it down and build another one. :D

[KittyDuran]

After seeing those I vote we tear it down and build another one. :D

Actually, there are parts that look like they're ready to fall down. :P

[Z-Fly]

After seeing those I vote we tear it down and build another one. :D

I am guessing that location is under your name is correct, and you don't live in Hamilton County? :D

[Larkin88]

Still, if a lot of the floors are worn out after 11 years, maybe they didn't use the greatest materials to begin with?
I understand, this is a commerical setting, but still.. 81 games/year X 11 years .. that means the floors have about 2.5 years of "real life" on them.
Sure, maybe some parts of the GAB are used on other days, but it seems that they didn't exactly get top of the line stuff.

I'd bet it's all pretty routine maintenance stuff. Value engineering studies are rarely that myopic and usually involve business case planning several years, if not decades out. It would be literally short-sighted to "value engineer" something against a single point in time.

If a cheaper material was used for carpeting, for instance, it was probably determined that the cost to replace it after X number of years was still more affordable than a higher-price material would be over its total life... even if that life was marginally longer than material A. The business case planning that goes into those sorts of studies is extremely rigorous and a lot of those ROI details (down to materials and finishes) would have been taken into consideration well before GABP was signed off on.

I work in retail and environmental design, so this is just my two cents. But the Reds would have been foolish to have invested in premium flooring materials or top of the line finishes in a facility that large, that gets that much traffic. Beyond the functional considerations there, arena-type settings also need to be flexible enough in their trade dress so things don't look dated after ten years. Trends for flooring, wall treatments, lighting design, etc. change drastically from year-to-year.