Marty calling out Votto

[xsteve1]

Marty was really hammering Votto on Cunningham's show today. Marty believes he is paid to produce runs and he's not doing it.

[Falls City Beer]

Yawn.

[Wonderful Monds]

Can we get Marty put under a gag order? He needs to go away.

[westofyou]

Marty's an arse

[armybrat45103]

You guys are such a bunch of homers. Votto has not produced in the 3 hole and I am glad he is being called on it. If Votto was a 2 hole guy, I would have no problem with his numbers. How many times does Votto go 2 strikes? A lot. That is not his job. His is to hit first strikes over the fence or in the gap. He is not doing that. You guys love shooting down anyone who yells that the emperor is naked. Well keep dressing this pig gentlemen because if this keeps up, we will not be playing ball deep in to October.

[mdccclxix]

I hope Votto gets a power surge soon, he's off his regular pace as of now and I do see him missing quite often on fastballs in the zone. I don't have an issue with asking more of Votto at this moment because I know he can deliver. I don't really like Marty's style of critique, though.

[Pacman Fever]

You guys are such a bunch of homers. Votto has not produced in the 3 hole and I am glad he is being called on it. If Votto was a 2 hole guy, I would have no problem with his numbers. How many times does Votto go 2 strikes? A lot. That is not his job. His is to hit first strikes over the fence or in the gap. He is not doing that. You guys love shooting down anyone who yells that the emperor is naked. Well keep dressing this pig gentlemen because if this keeps up, we will not be playing ball deep in to October.

Just change the word "Water" to "Votto" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu9VA3pTEzs These "Homers" really do feel like Adam Sandler in Waterboy about this Canuck!!

[OC_Red]

Marty, Marty, Marty...

Yes, clearly Votto is the reason the Reds scored FIVE runs in the last five games....


:bang:

Why is he not pointing out that GIBP is hitting around the mendoza line since May? Or that there are THREE batters in the entire lineup hitting above .258...

But yes...it's on Votto...hit more homers, Joey, swing at more balls out of the zone. You are the RUN producer, dude!

*sigh*

[Wonderful Monds]

You guys are such a bunch of homers. Votto has not produced in the 3 hole and I am glad he is being called on it. If Votto was a 2 hole guy, I would have no problem with his numbers. How many times does Votto go 2 strikes? A lot. That is not his job. His is to hit first strikes over the fence or in the gap. He is not doing that. You guys love shooting down anyone who yells that the emperor is naked. Well keep dressing this pig gentlemen because if this keeps up, we will not be playing ball deep in to October.
You'll get there someday son, but today is not your day.

[NebraskaRed]

Ah yes, the best player on your team is clearly the problem.

[Wonderful Monds]

Just change the word "Water" to "Votto" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu9VA3pTEzs These "Homers" really do feel like Adam Sandler in Waterboy about this Canuck!!

That could be it. Or it could possibly be that us "homers" don't have what I like to call "a fundamental lack of understanding of how baseball works."

[westofyou]

Well keep dressing this pig gentlemen because if this keeps up, we will not be playing ball deep in to October.

Sez who?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7NIYr3aT_yY/Tm28zG9XDhI/AAAAAAAACnw/b3F2Icj5DD0/s1600/pig-suit.jpg

[klw]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/league/nl/sort/runsCreated/type/sabermetric/order/true

Votto leads the NL in Runs Created.

[americanoutlaw1]

You guys are such a bunch of homers. Votto has not produced in the 3 hole and I am glad he is being called on it. If Votto was a 2 hole guy, I would have no problem with his numbers. How many times does Votto go 2 strikes? A lot. That is not his job. His is to hit first strikes over the fence or in the gap. He is not doing that. You guys love shooting down anyone who yells that the emperor is naked. Well keep dressing this pig gentlemen because if this keeps up, we will not be playing ball deep in to October.

Votto has basically been the 2 hole hitter all year... he's been the second person in the lineup with a legitimate chance to get on base

[westofyou]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/league/nl/sort/runsCreated/type/sabermetric/order/true

Votto leads the NL in Runs Created.

He leads Cincinnati in generating the most buzz from people who think they know more about baseball than they really know too.

[americanoutlaw1]

That said, he isn't his old self at the moment, but he's like pizza... even when he's bad, he's still pretty damn good

[xsteve1]

Votto has basically been the 2 hole hitter all year... he's been the second person in the lineup with a legitimate chance to get on base

Maybe they should move him up to the two hole. Right now he's much more of a 2 than a 3. Bruce is the best player on this team right now and could hit cleanup. Choo, Votto, Phillips, Bruce.

[Larkin Fan]

Joey needs to step up that run production. He only leads the NL with 90 runs created. He needs to do more!!!

[Larkin Fan]

Joey needs to step up that run production. He only leads the NL with 90 runs created. He needs to do more!!!

Crap, shouldn't have stepped away from the computer before posting. I see klw already beat me to this fun fact!

[puca]

Marty's act has gotten tired.

[Tom Servo]

Did any of you encouraging Votto to swing at balls out of the zone happen to see BP's at-bat yesterday where he swung at ball 4, ball 5, and nearly went around on ball 6 about a foot away from the plate? You may call that doing his job, I call it awful.

[Falcon7]

9 rbi's this month already, what more can he do?
But I think today, he will drive in more than 2 runs for the 1st time this year.
C'mon Joey, you can do it!

[Tom Servo]

9 rbi's this month already, what more can he do?
But I think today, he will drive in more than 2 runs for the 1st time this year.
C'mon Joey, you can do it!
You could probably use an avatar

http://theclassical.org/sites/default/files/trolllegs-ajk.jpg

[Falcon7]

Did any of you encouraging Votto to swing at balls out of the zone happen to see BP's at-bat yesterday where he swung at ball 4, ball 5, and nearly went around on ball 6 about a foot away from the plate? You may call that doing his job, I call it awful.

He walked! If a walk is awful, your boy really stinks.

[markymark69]

Calling out may be a little strong. I heard the interview, Marty stated the obvious, that Votto is pace for 70-80 RBI's and "that is not going to get it done."

He thinks Votto got caught up in OBP and stated how that Miguel Cabrera expands his strike zone and will swing at a pitch a inch or two outside while Votto will take it.

That being said, I've always appreciated Marty telling what he thinks and not just what we want to hear.

[Larkin Fan]

IMO, if be logical and realistic makes one a homer, its still ranks much high than a banana phone caller.

[CTA513]

You could probably use an avatar

http://theclassical.org/sites/default/files/trolllegs-ajk.jpg


:pimp:

[Chip R]

9 rbi's this month already, what more can he do?


10. :D

[Raisor]

Maybe they should move him up to the two hole. Right now he's much more of a 2 than a 3. Bruce is the best player on this team right now and could hit cleanup. Choo, Votto, Phillips, Bruce.

Listen, I love Jay Bruce. My fantasy baseball team is named after him . When I had to go to the ER the other night I wore my Bruce shirt just in case I died.

Votto is out OPSing jay by 100 points. Votto is one of the two or three best players in the league This Year.

Jay is in the top 15, but he's not Joey

[Dom Heffner]

You guys are such a bunch of homers. Votto has not produced in the 3 hole and I am glad he is being called on it. If Votto was a 2 hole guy, I would have no problem with his numbers. How many times does Votto go 2 strikes? A lot. That is not his job. His is to hit first strikes over the fence or in the gap. He is not doing that. You guys love shooting down anyone who yells that the emperor is naked. Well keep dressing this pig gentlemen because if this keeps up, we will not be playing ball deep in to October.

He's had the second worst regular positional player hitting in front of him most of the year...a .286 OBP....

Phillips: .256 .310 .396 .706
Votto: 317 .431 .504 .934

Phillips has 80 something RBI's because he has Choo and Votto hitting ahead of him. He isn't even league average in OPS....

Give it a rest and go worship Joe Carter.

[puca]

Votto's biggest problem is that he doesn't have Votto hitting in front of him

[Tom Servo]

Give it a rest and go worship Joe Carter.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7948


Poor Joe.

[PTjvs]

Votto has clearly been one of the best 10 position players in the NL this year, and probably top 5. I would love to see Votto get back to producing a little more power, and being in the top 1-2, but this version of Votto is still pretty damn good, and clearly not the problem.

I guess if you replace Votto this year with MVP Votto, you may only be 3 games back. Would that make folks happy?

jvs

[klw]

Votto's biggest problem is that he doesn't have Votto hitting in front of him

And behind him.

[Todd Gack]

Ah yes, the best player on your team is clearly the problem.

I never heard Marty say that.

[Raisor]

Votto has clearly been one of the best 10 position players in the NL this year, and probably top 5. I would love to see Votto get back to producing a little more power, and being in the top 1-2, but this version of Votto is still pretty damn good, and clearly not the problem.

I guess if you replace Votto this year with MVP Votto, you may only be 3 games back. Would that make folks happy?

jvs

I like you. High five!

[Wonderful Monds]

I never heard Marty say that.

Well, that's the basis of this thread.

[smith3t5]

Votto's biggest problem is that he doesn't have Votto hitting in front of him

That's pretty much dead on. Votto is the master of the two out, bases empty, opposite field single. One thing that has frustrated me about Votto since the knee injury is his (over)willingness to flip a soft liner opposite field. Don't get me wrong -- having a guy on base is never a bad thing -- but I think his picky-ness at the plate can be counterproductive to the lineup as a whole at times. He's at 0-2 before you can blink. Once he goes 0-2 he chokes up and just looks to put something in play. I would like to see him start driving the ball early in the count.

[nate]

That's pretty much dead on. Votto is the master of the two out, bases empty, opposite field single. One thing that has frustrated me about Votto since the knee injury is his (over)willingness to flip a soft liner opposite field. Don't get me wrong -- having a guy on base is never a bad thing -- but I think his picky-ness at the plate can be counterproductive to the lineup as a whole at times. He's at 0-2 before you can blink. Once he goes 0-2 he chokes up and just looks to put something in play. I would like to see him start driving the ball early in the count.

To be honest, I have a hard time finding counts where Votto is appreciably worse than the league this year:



Split PA sOPS+
First Pitch 53 198
1-0 Count 29 184
2-0 Count 13 232
3-0 Count 26 164
0-1 Count 25 195
1-1 Count 25 120
2-1 Count 27 164
3-1 Count 44 144
0-2 Count 34 105
1-2 Count 58 79
2-2 Count 64 95
Full Count 85 102
After 1-0 233 160
After 2-0 103 173
After 3-0 44 163
After 0-1 197 129
After 1-1 206 110
After 2-1 143 144
After 3-1 78 124
After 0-2 67 141
After 1-2 117 90
After 2-2 115 104
Zero Balls 112 187
Zero Strikes 121 203
Three Balls 155 132
Two Strikes 241 108
Batter Ahead 224 158
Even Count 142 147
Pitcher Ahead 117 115


OK, he turns into Zach Cozart in a 1-2 count.

[smith3t5]

I'm not saying he is bad in any way at all. I'm just saying that with two on and one out he needs to look for something early in the count that he can tag.

Call me crazy, and I'm just being theoretical here, but if Ludwick shows any promise when he comes back I would bat Votto in the two hole for a few games with Ludwick at 3, Phillips 4, etc, just to see how it pans out.

Again, I am not saying Votto isn't a huge asset to the team. Unquestionably the best talent we have as an everyday player. I would just like to see better power/RBI's coming out of a guy we're paying $220 m over the next 10 or so years. I get that the loss of Ludwick clearly affects that production, but if Ludwick can drive the ball once he comes back (questionable with his age and the injury) I think it would be interesting to test Votto in the 2 hole when we play a team like the Astros in August.

[RedsBaron]

Calling out may be a little strong. I heard the interview, Marty stated the obvious, that Votto is pace for 70-80 RBI's and "that is not going to get it done."

He thinks Votto got caught up in OBP and stated how that Miguel Cabrera expands his strike zone and will swing at a pitch a inch or two outside while Votto will take it.

Marty makes the same criticism of Votto that idiotic Boston sportswriters made of Ted Williams decades ago, advocating that the best hitter on the team swing at pitches outside the strike zone. Those Boston sportswriters were ignorant then and Marty is ignorant now.

[GotHeeeeem]

He should be more critical of him for the old Olay snags he tries to make.....on routine balls hit right at him.

[Wonderful Monds]

He should be more critical of him for the old Olay snags he tries to make.....on routine balls hit right at him.

*olé

[RedlegJake]

without a dangerous hitter behind him I believe the best spot for Joey is #2 behind Choo where they will still pitch around him and they'd both be on base a lot and then Phillips and Bruce would have a lot of no out or 1 out chances to pick up a man or two men. Without protection he becomes a terrific on base machine. With protection watch him start driving the ball because he'd get better pitches to hit.

[PERHitKing]

.

[Mastodon]

When everyone else on the team starts hitting .320 we can start worrying about "fixing" Votto. Until then there are certainly bigger fish to fry.

[traderumor]

I'd like Marty to produce evidence that Miggy actually does what he says he does. Then I'd like for him to explain why that approach, if it is what he actually does vs. what Marty thinks he does because someone else told him that is how he drives in a lot of runs, might not work for every best hitter on each and every team. Then maybe I'd respect his opinion.

[RedsBaron]

Other than Yogi Berra and Vlad Guerrero (and maybe not even them), what hitters have ever been consistently effective swinging at pitches outside the strike zone?
Apart from Marty of course. ;)

[dougdirt]

One day people will understand that producing runs isn't having RBI. I hope that day is soon.

The #1 part of producing runs in getting on base. No one in the NL does it better than Joey Votto.

[klw]

One day people will understand that producing runs isn't having RBI. I hope that day is soon.

The #1 part of producing runs in getting on base. No one in the NL does it better than Joey Votto.

Oh please Votto isn't even #1 on the Reds in OBP- he is third behind Ludwick and Manny Parra! (4th if you count Zach Duke) Even Greinke is ahead of him!
there are even three guys called Zach(k) ahead of Votto. None called Cozart however.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/league/nl/sort/onBasePct/qualified/false



RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS WAR
1 Ryan Ludwick CIN 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .000 1.000 .000 1.000 0.1
* Brandon League LAD 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .000 1.000 .000 1.000 0.1
* Zach Duke WSH 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.000 1.000 2.000 0.1
* Robert Carson NYM 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .000 1.000 .000 1.000 0.1
5 Manny Parra CIN 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .500 .500 .500 1.000 0.1
* Zach Lutz NYM 4 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 .250 .500 .250 .750 0.1
* Todd Cunningham ATL 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .500 .500 .500 1.000 0.0
* Jaff Decker SD 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 .000 .500 .000 .500 0.1
* Burch Smith SD 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 .000 .500 .000 .500 0.0
10 Zack Greinke LAD 35 3 14 2 0 0 2 1 0 4 5 .400 .475 .457 .932 1.0
RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS WAR
11 Joey Votto CIN 401 73 127 23 2 16 49 4 2 80 93 .317 .430 .504 .934 4.9








;)

[DWS1125]

That could be it. Or it could possibly be that us "homers" don't have what I like to call "a fundamental lack of understanding of how baseball works."

I trust Marty's 40+ years of baseball knowledge than what Votto has between his head any day..

See the ball hit the ball!! Votto is the Highest paid Walker in the world

[DWS1125]

can anyone post the stats of Votto's called strike outs and swinging strikeouts.. and the rankings in the league

[Raisor]

I trust Marty's 40+ years of baseball knowledge than what Votto has between his head any day..

See the ball hit the ball!! Votto is the Highest paid Walker in the world

Wait. What?

[DWS1125]

Wait. What?

yea he gets 200 million to walk 90feet

[Wonderful Monds]

I trust Marty's 40+ years of baseball knowledge than what Votto has between his head any day..

See the ball hit the ball!! Votto is the Highest paid Walker in the world

This is it, folks.

This is the stupidest thing ever posted on Redszone. The worst of the worst.

Bask in the glory of its abject wrongness.

[dougdirt]

yea he gets 200 million to walk 90feet

Average - 4th best in the NL
On-Base Percentage - Best in the NL
Slugging - 10th best in the NL

He gets paid to do a lot of things. He hits, walks, gets on base and slugs better than just about anyone in the NL. But hey, focus on one thing he is really good at, complain about it despite the fact that it is actually a very good thing to be good at, and ignore the other things he does better than just about everyone else in the league. Seems reasonable. Or not.

[Wonderful Monds]

can anyone post the stats of Votto's called strike outs and swinging strikeouts.. and the rankings in the league


yea he gets 200 million to walk 90feet

While we're citing stupid stats, Joey Votto's average is .317, 4th in the NL.


see the ball hit the ball!!111111

[Wonderful Monds]

Are there dumber fans in all of baseball than Reds fans? This is too much for me, jeez.

[westofyou]

can anyone post the stats of Votto's called strike outs and swinging strikeouts.. and the rankings in the league

Teach a man to fish

http://www.baseball-reference.com/

[DWS1125]

if everyone can hit like Votto.. Votto would be more effectiver

[NebraskaRed]

if everyone can hit like Votto.. Votto would be more effectiver

http://i.imgflip.com/1bgw.jpg

[faffy42]

If anything....id call him out on his lethargic defense and below average baserunning.

[nate]

Oh please Votto isn't even #1 on the Reds in OBP- he is third behind Ludwick and Manny Parra! (4th if you count Zach Duke) Even Greinke is ahead of him!
there are even three guys called Zach(k) ahead of Votto. None called Cozart however.
;)

Solid.

[westofyou]

On Dick Allen being booed in Philly:

I just don't understand it. I guess when people have exceptional talent, they are expected to be exceptional every minute of the day, and the perfect player hasn't been born yet.

Gene Mauch

[Larkin Fan]

I trust Marty's 40+ years of baseball knowledge than what Votto has between his head any day..

See the ball hit the ball!! Votto is the Highest paid Walker in the world

LOL, most hilarious post of the year. Oh wait... you were actually being serious...

Can I have the brain cells back that I just lost reading that garbage?

[Larkin Fan]

One thing that I am 100% certain of is the fact that if Miguel Cabrera were a Red, Smarty Marty would find something to call him out for as well.

[westofyou]

LOL, most hilarious post of the year. Oh wait... you were actually being serious...

Can I have the brain cells back that I just lost reading that garbage?

I've always believed that knowledge was the acknowledgement that the information available was ever changing and thus enriching to the knowledge base.

To this I ponder, what do the Brennamans do to increase their knowledge base?

From my vantage point I'm going to say very little

[bob jones]

Gen Mauch Chris Short and Johnny Callison agree although Ray Culp and Clay Dalrymple do not

[BluegrassRedleg]

Truth lies somewhere in between. Votto's not been a great 3 hole guy this year when it comes to producing runs, but he's not been bad, either. And I blame a lot of the low RBI total on the 2 hole issues that have played the Reds. It seems like Votto has led off a TON of innings this season. Might be just perception, but feels that way.

[nate]

So can anyone guess who is second in NL runs scored?

His name rhymes with "grotto."

He's from a country in the north of North America.

He plays for one of the MLB teams in Ohio.

Let me know if you need any more hints!

[BluegrassRedleg]

So can anyone guess who is second in NL runs scored?

His name rhymes with "grotto."

He's from a country in the north of North America.

He plays for one of the MLB teams in Ohio.

Let me know if you need any more hints!

Have said many times this year he's the perfect 2 hole man for this particular team as presently constructed. Why is this not an option?

[Raisor]

Have said many times this year he's the perfect 2 hole man for this particular team as presently constructed. Why is this not an option?

Votto is the perfect hitter at every lineup position.

[RedlegJake]

Have said many times this year he's the perfect 2 hole man for this particular team as presently constructed. Why is this not an option?

I agree. WIthout legitimate protection, and with his tremendous OB skills, which only increase without protection, Joey would be incredible with Choo as a 1-2 lead off. Just move everyone up one and let Choo and Joey SCORE runs rather than drive them in.

[smith3t5]

I agree. WIthout legitimate protection, and with his tremendous OB skills, which only increase without protection, Joey would be incredible with Choo as a 1-2 lead off. Just move everyone up one and let Choo and Joey SCORE runs rather than drive them in.

I was saying this the other day. I'm afraid Dusty is way too traditional in his thinking to ever bat a 1B in the two hole.

[BluegrassRedleg]

Votto is the perfect hitter at every lineup position.

No argument there. Just need a clone (or even a cheap knockoff) to hit in front of him.

[nate]

Just let me know if you guys need more hints!

:cool:

[Raisor]

Just let me know if you guys need more hints!

:cool:

Gordy?

[texasdave]

Joey Baseball has 10 ribeyes in his last 14 games. That is on pace to knock in 116. Franchester can pipe down now.

[joshua]

Listen, I love Jay Bruce. My fantasy baseball team is named after him . When I had to go to the ER the other night I wore my Bruce shirt just in case I died.

I can't believe this post has sat here for five pages without anyone commenting on its brilliance.

[RedTeamGo!]

He thinks Votto got caught up in OBP and stated how that Miguel Cabrera expands his strike zone and will swing at a pitch a inch or two outside while Votto will take it.


This is what Marty doesn't understand:

Joey Votto is not Miguel Cabrera.

Miguel Cabrera is great because he is a freak of nature. Watching him hit is like watching Eddie Van Halen play the guitar or Bobby Fischer play chess.

Joey Votto is great because he is the smartest player on the field and has the best understanding of the strike zone in the majors.

If Joey Votto tried to be like Miguel Cabrera I think his production would decline.

[bmwreds31]

lol at some of these posts defending VOTTO.

Votto has pretty drastically changed his approach at the plate this season. I think thats pretty obvious.

It changes him from a pretty damn stellar 3 hole hitter. To being an amazing 2 hole hitter.

Nobody is saying he sucks. We just know what hes capable of. And i have no idea why he changed it up, to this choke up on the bat contact/Foul off until i get walked type hitter.

[Goose]

lol at some of these posts defending VOTTO.

Votto has pretty drastically changed his approach at the plate this season. I think thats pretty obvious.

And i have no idea why he changed it up, to this choke up on the bat contact/Foul off until i get walked type hitter.

Votto does become a defensive hitter with 2 strikes on him. Maybe he checked his stats with two strikes on him and adjusted. I read someone's post earlier that showed Votto's stats with 2 strikes and they seemed impressive. I wonder what those stats were last year. I don't know how to find them, otherwise I would post it, might be an interesting comparison.

[RedTeamGo!]

lol at some of these posts defending VOTTO.

Votto has pretty drastically changed his approach at the plate this season. I think thats pretty obvious.

It changes him from a pretty damn stellar 3 hole hitter. To being an amazing 2 hole hitter.

Nobody is saying he sucks. We just know what hes capable of. And i have no idea why he changed it up, to this choke up on the bat contact/Foul off until i get walked type hitter.

.321/.438/.512/.950

42 XBH (23 2b, 2 3b, 17 HR)

Does not = The type of hitter you are describing.

[RedsBaron]

Phillips with two strikes: .289 .323 .397 .720

Phillips with no balls, no strikes: .261 .313 .405 .718
Votto with no balls, no strikes: .321 .438 .512 .950

[westofyou]

lol at some of these posts defending VOTTO.

Votto has pretty drastically changed his approach at the plate this season. I think thats pretty obvious.

It changes him from a pretty damn stellar 3 hole hitter. To being an amazing 2 hole hitter.

Nobody is saying he sucks. We just know what hes capable of. And i have no idea why he changed it up, to this choke up on the bat contact/Foul off until i get walked type hitter.

7th in the league in slugging, no #2 hitters around that group.

Maybe folks should lower their steroid induced expectations and move with the game to the levels being produced today?

[bmwreds31]

.321/.438/.512/.950

42 XBH (23 2b, 2 3b, 17 HR)

Does not = The type of hitter you are describing.

Anything less than 20 hr's especially with a home field like GAPB.

Does not = The reds 3 or 4 hole hitter either.

[Raisor]

Anything less than 20 hr's especially with a home field like GAPB.

Does not = The reds 3 or 4 hole hitter either.

7th in slugging dude.

[LexRedsFan]

7th in slugging dude.

But -- but -- HOMERS!

:laugh:

[Larkin Fan]

Anything less than 20 hr's especially with a home field like GAPB.

Does not = The reds 3 or 4 hole hitter either.

I realize this may come to a surprise to you, but there's more to hitting than how many homeruns someone has.

[Tom Servo]

Anything less than 20 hr's especially with a home field like GAPB.

Does not = The reds 3 or 4 hole hitter either.
So only Jay Bruce is qualified to be our 3 and 4 hitter?

[RedTeamGo!]

So, what if Votto had 19 home runs? Would you squeeze him into the 3 hole then, or does it have to be exactly 20?

[dougdirt]

So only Jay Bruce is qualified to be our 3 and 4 hitter?

Are we allowed to do that?

[CmdrCody]

So only Jay Bruce is qualified to be our 3 and 4 hitter?

No Dusty would never do that. BP would be put there first.

[Larkin Fan]

No Dusty would never do that. BP would be put there first.

He only has 13 homeruns!

[Wonderful Monds]

Homer Bailey is NAMED Homer. I say he hits 3rd.

[CmdrCody]

Homer Bailey is NAMED Homer. I say he hits 3rd.

Like the joke.
I think his grandpa was named Homer and his name is David, but he's called Homer for his granddad. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[RedsBaron]

Are we allowed to do that?

Sure. All we need to do is distract the home plate ump. ;)

[bmwreds31]

Ok some of the spin offs were funny. However the point is still valid.

Having your 3-hole hitter Choke up and be 1 hr away from 40th in the league.

And then your 4-hole hitter 68th in the league in homers. in this ball park.

Is not living up to your position in the order.

How about this, name a playoff team this year that their 3 and 4 hole hitters have less than us. Im too lazy to look it up but im doubting it.

My bet is most are crushing our 3 & 4 in the category combined. And again considering our ball park is extremely HR friendly we should be towards the top.

[westofyou]

How about this, name a playoff team this year that their 3 and 4 hole hitters have less than us. Im too lazy to look it up but im doubting it.


How about doing your own research to support your own point?

[CySeymour]

Barry Bonds use to choke up.

[RedTeamGo!]

Just to prove him wrong quickly - I looked up one team that is leading their very tough division. The Reds opponent tonight: The Oakland A's.

Lowrie - 8 home runs
Cespedes - 17 home runs (not nearly as good of numbers as Votto apart from home runs)

Aside from that quick pwn-job I just laid on your ridiculous point/question, if you are going to act like what you are saying is fact, back it up with stats you research yourself from now on.

[Raisor]

Votto: tied for 7th in SLG with .512

I love home runs.

But there are other ways to swing a dead cat.

[bmwreds31]

Barry Bonds use to choke up.

hahaha i like this one. Barry bonds also use to....lol

You guys can act all you want like your the gods of knowledge when it comes to baseball. But marty who has more experience than any of us and he agrees with me.

Ive also not stated anything was facts. Ive stated my opinion. My opinion is officially what i stated before. Votto is a great hitter. Hes just changed his approach drastically this year. And i dont particularly like it or agree with it. In terms of what would benefit this team the most.

Im not saying he sucks. And neither was marty.

[dougdirt]

hahaha i like this one. Barry bonds also use to....lol

You guys can act all you want like your the gods of knowledge when it comes to baseball. But marty who has more experience than any of us and he agrees with me.

Ive also not stated anything was facts. Ive stated my opinion. My opinion is officially what i stated before. Votto is a great hitter. Hes just changed his approach drastically this year. And i dont particularly like it or agree with it. In terms of what would benefit this team the most.

Im not saying he sucks. And neither was marty.

Marty didn't play baseball more than I did. He certainly didn't play baseball more than some other guys on here who played in the minors and in college.

Marty is an experienced broadcaster. He has never worked on the baseball side of things. He has never coached. He never played the game for money. He never worked as a scout or in a front office. He is no more qualified as some sort of baseball expert than I am, or you are.

[RedTeamGo!]

hahaha i like this one. Barry bonds also use to....lol

You guys can act all you want like your the gods of knowledge when it comes to baseball. But marty who has more experience than any of us and he agrees with me.

Ive also not stated anything was facts. Ive stated my opinion. My opinion is officially what i stated before. Votto is a great hitter. Hes just changed his approach drastically this year. And i dont particularly like it or agree with it. In terms of what would benefit this team the most.

Im not saying he sucks. And neither was marty.

- makes claim

- asks others to look up stats because he is lazy

- proven wrong

- says people that looked up stats he asked for are acting like "gods of knowledge" and he is right even though he was proven wrong immediately.

Ok, makes sense...

[CySeymour]

hahaha i like this one. Barry bonds also use to....lol
.

Fact is Bonds knew how to hit and was Hall Of Fame caliber, no matter if he was enhanced or not.

[bmwreds31]

- makes claim

- asks others to look up stats because he is lazy

- proven wrong

- says people that looked up stats he asked for are acting like "gods of knowledge" and he is right even though he was proven wrong immediately.

Ok, makes sense...

ok...
i dont feed trolls very often so not really going to start now. Grats on looking up a stat.

[bmwreds31]

Fact is Bonds knew how to hit and was Hall Of Fame caliber, no matter if he was enhanced or not.

well i agree with you. However i dont believe too many would argue that bonds could clearly still jack one with ease choked up. And Votto has Warning track power when he is choked up.

Votto never pulls the ball anymore. Almost all of his homers are to left field.

[bmwreds31]

Marty didn't play baseball more than I did. He certainly didn't play baseball more than some other guys on here who played in the minors and in college.

Marty is an experienced broadcaster. He has never worked on the baseball side of things. He has never coached. He never played the game for money. He never worked as a scout or in a front office. He is no more qualified as some sort of baseball expert than I am, or you are.

Sorry but ill have to disagree. I wouldnt call him some baseball expert.

However at the same time. Im not sure who you really call a baseball expert. If you gathered every head coach from the majors that coached for more than 15yrs. They all would make different calls, and have different opinions on players.

[RedTeamGo!]

ok...
i dont feed trolls very often so not really going to start now. Grats on looking up a stat.

You said you were lazy to look up the stats and asked others to do so.

[dougdirt]

Sorry but ill have to disagree. I wouldnt call him some baseball expert.

However at the same time. Im not sure who you really call a baseball expert. If you gathered every head coach from the majors that coached for more than 15yrs. They all would make different calls, and have different opinions on players.

Why is Marty's opinion better than mine? Because he has watched more baseball?

Marty has watched more baseball than Joey Votto has. Who is a better expert on hitting?

Who I would call a baseball expert is a tough question. I think Joe Morgan would be a great guy to teach someone the mechanics of the game. How to hit. How to steal. How to field. I wouldn't want Joe Morgan managing a team or telling someone about the value of a player because he is clueless when it comes to things like that. He is an expert in one field and pretty darn poor at another.

[dougdirt]

Votto never pulls the ball anymore. Almost all of his homers are to left field.

Joey Votto hasn't pulled the ball with any kind of frequency since he was a teenager.

[bmwreds31]

Joey Votto hasn't pulled the ball with any kind of frequency since he was a teenager.


He pulled the ball more his MVP season. And struck out less.

[reds1869]

How about this, name a playoff team this year that their 3 and 4 hole hitters have less than us. Im too lazy to look it up but im doubting it.

I'll play this game. Reds have 30 (Votto 17, BP 13). Here are what some playoff teams are trotting out in their 3 and 4 holes this evening.

Atlanta Braves 29

Freddie Freeman 13
Brian McCann 16

Oakland Athletics 25

Jed Lowrie 8
Yoenis Cespedes 17

Tampa Bay Rays 29

Evan Longoria 21
Wil Myers 8

Boston Red Sox 29

Dustin Pedroia 8
David Ortiz 21



LA Dodgers 26

Adrian Gonzalez 15
Yasiel Puig 11

[Raisor]

Still....7th in the NL in slugging percentage.

[OC_Red]

Still....7th in the NL in slugging percentage.

Stop using them there advanced SABER statistics...

*dripping sarcasm*

In all seriousness, this discussion wouldn't be happening if the SS, LF, C, and yes even the 2B would actually pull their weight in the box.

Joey Votto is not the issue, nor is his HR total.

[Goose]

Actually, Votto's stats with 2 strikes in this year are worse than those in 2012.

`12: .256 .394 .390 .784
`13: .186 .300 .238 .538

I guess it was last year's stats that were impressive. I don't know if it is a change in approach or not. It does seem like with two strikes that Votto has a lot of defensive swings this year where he looks like he is just trying to foul it off.

[Raisor]

Joey now second in the NL in Ops (.951). However, he did fall to 8th in SLG (.512) behind David Wright's .512.

[KYBatsFan]

I'm not sure Votto's hitting, good or bad, really factored in to the recent STL series. However, against MIL, SD and a couple other series last month he did kind of blow it w/RISP in critical moments. Having said that, there are other guys on the team and the Reds probably could do a little better than 1 run in 40 innings or whatever it was.

[westofyou]

Baseball is a game if failure, methinks some posting here don't get that aspect of the game as astutely as they should

[RedTeamGo!]

It really seems like people expect Votto to hit 100 home runs, have 300 RBI and slide 20 feet in a split second to stop every ground ball.

[bmwreds31]

Stop using them there advanced SABER statistics...

*dripping sarcasm*

In all seriousness, this discussion wouldn't be happening if the SS, LF, C, and yes even the 2B would actually pull their weight in the box.

Joey Votto is not the issue, nor is his HR total.

I completely agree. This thread was just discussing votto specifically. I however do not think at all that he is "The problem" Or really even a problem. Im just really, disappointed with his change of approach at the plate.


I guess it was last year's stats that were impressive. I don't know if it is a change in approach or not. It does seem like with two strikes that Votto has a lot of defensive swings this year where he looks like he is just trying to foul it off.

exactly. I liked to see him pull a base hit through the right side of the infield last night though. But of course he only had one strike at that time.


It really seems like people expect Votto to hit 100 home runs, have 300 RBI and slide 20 feet in a split second to stop every ground ball.

not at all.

And to the guy that listed all the teams HR stats in 3-4 hole. Thank you. Frankly im very surprised. However i dont think any of those ball parks are anywhere near as HR friendly as GABP.

A very interesting stat to know in this discussion. Unfortunately i have no idea how to look it up though. Oh god im lazy again. ;) Is what the 3-4 hole for both teams HR total is. Only at GABP this year.

[westofyou]

Moving goalposts, the best of both worlds

[Raisor]

I completely agree. This thread was just discussing votto specifically. I however do not think at all that he is "The problem" Or really even a problem. Im just really, disappointed with his change of approach at the plate.



exactly. I liked to see him pull a base hit through the right side of the infield last night though. But of course he only had one strike at that time.



not at all.

And to the guy that listed all the teams HR stats in 3-4 hole. Thank you. Frankly im very surprised. However i dont think any of those ball parks are anywhere near as HR friendly as GABP.

A very interesting stat to know in this discussion. Unfortunately i have no idea how to look it up though. Oh god im lazy again. ;) Is what the 3-4 hole for both teams HR total is. Only at GABP this year.



I'm curious why you keep ignoring:

Joey Votto 7th in the NL in slugging percentage (tied with David Wright)

[RedsBaron]

It really seems like people expect Votto to hit 100 home runs, have 300 RBI and slide 20 feet in a split second to stop every ground ball.

Votto should be faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound....;)

[Raisor]

Votto should be faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound....;)

Canadians don't show off

[Hey Meat]

Too many holes in this line up right now. Votto should not be the main recipient of blame here. We are all hoping that things get better upon Ludwick's return.

[Bob Sheed]

Have said many times this year he's the perfect 2 hole man for this particular team as presently constructed. Why is this not an option?

Votto bats 3rd, dude. It's in the book.

[Larkin Fan]

I'm curious why you keep ignoring:

Joey Votto 7th in the NL in slugging percentage (tied with David Wright)

This. And I'm also curious as to why he is completely ignoring the fact that Votto's approach hasn't really changed since his 2010 MVP season. In fact, what has actually changed is the way that opposing teams/pitchers approach and pitch to him when he's at the plate.

[Salukifan2]

Can it be that this frustration stems primarily from his huge contract and the fact that this is his age 29 season? Meaning this year and the next are going to most likely be his peak carear seasons and if he is only .950 ops player (only? I know that sounds weird when we are talking about .950 ops) now what will he be in 10 years when he is making 26-28 million?

The reds weren't counting on him just being really good when they gave him that kind of money. They were expecting him to be prolific. We are talking about the 4th richest contract in MLB history.

Votto certainly isn't the reason the reds are in third but I understand some of the frustration reds fans have

[westofyou]

Can it be that this frustration stems primarily from his huge contract and the fact that this is his age 29 season? Meaning this year and the next are going to most likely be his peak carear seasons and if he is only .950 ops player (only? I know that sounds weird when we are talking about .950 ops) now what will he be in 10 years when he is making 26-28 million?

The reds weren't counting on him just being really good when they gave him that kind of money. They were expecting him to be prolific. We are talking about the 4th richest contract in MLB history.

Votto certainly isn't the reason the reds are in third but I understand some of the frustration reds fans have

The Reds have only had 13 guys ever with a .950 OPS in a season.

[RedTeamGo!]

Can it be that this frustration stems primarily from his huge contract and the fact that this is his age 29 season? Meaning this year and the next are going to most likely be his peak carear seasons and if he is only .950 ops player (only? I know that sounds weird when we are talking about .950 ops) now what will he be in 10 years when he is making 26-28 million?

The reds weren't counting on him just being really good when they gave him that kind of money. They were expecting him to be prolific. We are talking about the 4th richest contract in MLB history.

Votto certainly isn't the reason the reds are in third but I understand some of the frustration reds fans have

Nah, pretty sure the ridiculous frustration stems from Reds fans thinking way too highly of RBI, but thanks for chiming in. A .950 OPS over a season is prolific, as westofyou said, it has happened 13 times in the history of the oldest professional franchise in baseball history.

[Raisor]

Can it be that this frustration stems primarily from his huge contract and the fact that this is his age 29 season? Meaning this year and the next are going to most likely be his peak carear seasons and if he is only .950 ops player (only? I know that sounds weird when we are talking about .950 ops) now what will he be in 10 years when he is making 26-28 million?

The reds weren't counting on him just being really good when they gave him that kind of money. They were expecting him to be prolific. We are talking about the 4th richest contract in MLB history.

Votto certainly isn't the reason the reds are in third but I understand some of the frustration reds fans have

There is exactly one (1) player in the NL with a higher OPS than Joey.

Numbers are down all over but Joey's ops is right at his career norm.

This is not a Joey Votto problem.

[westofyou]

Nah, pretty sure the ridiculous frustration stems from Reds fans thinking way too highly of RBI, but thanks for chiming in. A .950 OPS over a season is prolific, as westofyou said, it has happened 13 times in the history of the oldest professional franchise in baseball history.

Well 20 times... by 13 players (Klu 53-55) Votto twice, Robby a mess (Hey he's old let's trade him... which was decision made when Deron Johnson drove in 135 runs in 1965 and DeWitt thought he'd pick up the slack (he did not))

[Chip R]

You guys can act all you want like your the gods of knowledge when it comes to baseball.

So who are the gods of RedsZone?

[bob jones]

Deron Johnson was once a yankee bonus baby

[Raisor]

So who are the gods of RedsZone?

I see you.

[westofyou]

Deron Johnson was once a yankee bonus baby

Yep and Bobby Cox was once the 3rd sacker of the future for them too

[bob jones]

yes Booby Cox Jerry Kenney Jake Gibbs and Horace Clarke were almost dynastic

[Raisor]

I'm curious why you keep ignoring:

Joey Votto 7th in the NL in slugging percentage (tied with David Wright)

[Raisor]

Naps are good too

[Larkin Fan]

Someone obviously needs some deep breathing exercise training and a benzodiazepine... Yikes.

[RedlegJake]

Let it go. It's over.

[RedlegJake]

yes Booby Cox Jerry Kenney Jake Gibbs and Horace Clarke were almost dynastic

And "superstars" Tom Tresh, Bobby Murcer and Roger Repoz. Boy when that early 60s team crashed in 65 they did it HARD.

[KronoRed]

Nah, pretty sure the ridiculous frustration stems from Reds fans thinking way too highly of RBI, but thanks for chiming in. A .950 OPS over a season is prolific, as westofyou said, it has happened 13 times in the history of the oldest professional franchise in baseball history.

The Reds aren't the oldest franchise, but I like your point.:D

[Raisor]

The Reds aren't the oldest franchise, but I like your point.:D

Dude you're going to blow someone's mind.

[reds1869]

The Reds aren't the oldest franchise, but I like your point.:D

Shhh....I might have to change my screen name if the secret gets out.

[klw]

So over on Fangraphs there is a stat called "Clutch." I have no idea what it is or how it is computed. Based on the name, I would assume it is supposed to be a measure of how clutch a hitter is. This is the Fangraphs definition :
Clutch - How much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment http://www.fangraphs.com/library/

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=100&type=3&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=12%2cd

I put in a minimum of 100 PA to limit the numbers a little bit and there are 136 players that met that criteria in the NL. Of those Joey Votto sits at #127 and Cozart at 135. I have no idea what this means. Is anyone here familiar enough with the stat to provide an explanation?


# Name Team WPA -WPA +WPA RE24 REW pLI phLI PH WPA/LI Clutch
1 Adrian Gonzalez Dodgers 3.34 -6.71 10.05 26.98 2.91 0.98 1.04 2 1.62 1.80
2 Ryan Zimmerman Nationals 2.73 -5.96 8.69 19.05 2.12 0.94 0.39 1 1.34 1.56
3 Travis Snider Pirates 1.01 -4.55 5.56 1.73 0.23 1.06 1.61 31 -0.50 1.45
4 Marcell Ozuna Marlins 1.15 -5.78 6.93 4.87 0.63 1.19 5.35 1 -0.42 1.39
5 Jesus Guzman Padres 1.28 -3.95 5.23 3.50 0.38 1.05 1.07 40 0.06 1.15
6 Freddie Freeman Braves 3.73 -6.72 10.45 39.86 4.30 1.03 0 2.55 1.09
7 Evan Gattis Braves 2.05 -4.59 6.63 8.45 0.93 1.13 2.53 10 0.73 1.08
8 Kyle Blanks Padres 1.78 -4.02 5.79 15.07 1.60 1.10 1.74 7 0.59 1.03
9 Kevin Frandsen Phillies 1.31 -2.73 4.04 4.51 0.49 1.17 1.58 44 0.11 1.00
10 Yadier Molina Cardinals 2.30 -5.61 7.91 24.37 2.56 0.94 1.38 4 1.51 0.94
11 Cody Ross Diamondbacks 0.66 -6.28 6.94 -5.23 -0.51 1.09 1.53 13 -0.30 0.91
12 Jason Kubel Diamondbacks -0.16 -4.61 4.45 -5.80 -0.60 1.09 1.36 16 -1.05 0.90
13 Dexter Fowler Rockies 1.30 -7.10 8.40 -1.54 -0.06 0.99 1.57 3 0.43 0.88
14 Brandon Phillips Reds 1.55 -8.39 9.94 16.09 1.80 1.10 0 0.58 0.83

125 Pedro Alvarez Pirates 0.54 -8.92 9.46 5.30 0.59 1.15 0.33 2 1.61 -1.15
126 Lucas Duda Mets -0.50 -4.94 4.44 1.46 0.15 1.11 0.71 3 0.75 -1.20
127 Joey Votto Reds 2.96 -7.47 10.42 36.61 3.96 1.02 1.32 1 4.12 -1.22
128 Carlos Gonzalez Rockies 0.77 -7.95 8.72 11.80 1.21 0.99 3.13 2 2.03 -1.25
129 Garrett Jones Pirates -0.53 -6.37 5.84 1.50 0.17 1.03 1.27 17 0.86 -1.37
130 Jayson Werth Nationals 0.31 -5.65 5.97 13.04 1.43 1.01 1.94 1 1.75 -1.44
131 Will Venable Padres -0.56 -5.33 4.78 2.35 0.28 0.89 0.73 7 0.91 -1.54
132 Hunter Pence Giants -0.01 -9.00 8.98 9.43 1.19 1.09 0 1.59 -1.60
133 Chris Johnson Braves -0.66 -6.37 5.72 10.53 1.11 0.95 0.52 5 1.23 -1.93
134 Chase Headley Padres -1.34 -7.41 6.07 -5.40 -0.50 0.98 0 0.56 -1.93
135 Zack Cozart Reds -2.11 -7.78 5.67 -20.14 -2.15 0.97 0.69 2 -0.16 -2.02
136 Rickie Weeks Brewers -3.31 -8.33 5.02 -23.03 -2.40 0.99 0.93 10 -1.27 -2.06


Now since 2007 there are 509 MLB players with at least 1000 PA and Votto has the 15th highest Clutch number- again whatever that means.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=1000&type=3&season=2013&month=0&season1=2005&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=12,d



# Name Team WPA -WPA +WPA RE24 REW pLI phLI PH WPA/LI Clutch
1 Willie Bloomquist - - - -0.19 -42.98 42.79 -50.60 -4.93 1.02 1.20 77 -6.19 6.00
2 Yadier Molina Cardinals 5.95 -70.54 76.49 32.12 3.76 0.97 2.02 24 1.12 5.04
3 Russell Martin - - - 7.57 -68.97 76.53 45.04 4.48 1.02 1.59 41 2.69 4.73
4 Bobby Abreu - - - 20.04 -78.92 98.96 220.03 22.13 0.99 1.72 66 15.69 4.59
5 A.J. Pierzynski - - - -3.04 -82.68 79.64 -54.05 -5.43 1.01 2.17 80 -7.55 4.55
6 Pedro Feliz - - - -3.57 -62.09 58.51 -59.07 -6.20 1.02 1.23 64 -7.86 4.35
7 Ryan Howard Phillies 28.78 -84.17 112.94 275.10 28.01 1.04 1.82 35 23.24 4.32
8 Marcus Giles - - - 4.58 -28.38 32.96 15.98 1.45 0.97 1.13 15 0.43 4.30
9 Brian Roberts Orioles 7.88 -69.79 77.67 74.27 7.35 1.02 1.75 18 3.41 4.28
10 Asdrubal Cabrera Indians 5.00 -55.92 60.93 34.10 3.46 1.00 1.10 13 0.83 4.17
11 Stephen Drew - - - 4.18 -63.28 67.46 20.79 2.29 1.00 1.43 29 0.41 3.77
12 Jimmy Rollins Phillies 7.93 -97.90 105.83 100.72 10.34 0.98 1.90 25 4.41 3.67
13 Jay Payton - - - 0.27 -34.18 34.45 -18.94 -1.60 1.01 1.45 49 -3.38 3.65
14 Adrian Gonzalez - - - 27.75 -86.17 113.92 291.22 30.52 1.00 1.40 11 24.06 3.59
15 Joey Votto Reds 31.30 -51.98 83.28 305.01 31.85 1.00 1.43 22 27.69 3.54
16 Albert Pujols - - - 46.89 -86.24 133.12 461.79 46.82 0.99 2.24 21 43.98 3.52
17 Michael Bourn - - - 3.91 -61.23 65.14 41.45 4.38 0.99 1.05 38 0.61 3.34
18 Aramis Ramirez - - - 23.72 -82.44 106.17 214.37 21.00 1.05 2.26 29 19.38 3.31

[bmwreds31]

dude quit posting relevant stats. Votto is 7th in slugging.

[Puffy]

dude quit posting relevant stats. Votto is 7th in slugging.

Wait, are you really claiming that having the NL's 2nd best OPS and 7th best slugging is not relevant??

Really?

[Raisor]

Wait, are you really claiming that having the NL's 2nd best OPS and 7th best slugging is not relevant??

Really?

Apparently

[Raisor]

dude quit posting relevant stats. Votto is 7th in slugging.

At least you've deemed a response was finally necessary.

May I ask what your issue with slugging is?

[puca]

dude quit posting relevant stats. Votto is 7th in slugging.

Brought to you by the inventer of KRISPY no doubt.

I don't consider a stat that rewards you for being bad in non-'high-leverage' situations relevant. Next.

According to this stat Votto has lost his clutchiness. Is it not more likely that pitchers are just not challanging him in 'clutch' situations anymore?

[Raisor]

At least you've deemed a response was finally necessary.

May I ask what your issue with slugging is?

Dude. I gots to know!

[bmwreds31]

Wait, are you really claiming that having the NL's 2nd best OPS and 7th best slugging is not relevant??

Really?

I didnt say slugging and OPS are not relevant. Just that possibly posters here are pretending they are the only relevant stats, and that all others dont matter.

[puca]

Only relevant stats are relevant.

[LexRedsFan]

I think this thread has reached a point of no return.