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RedTeamGo!
08-23-2013, 02:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxf1c3fzDOU

Youtube video which shows a lot of behind the scenes perspectives from pre-production and actual production. I watched this last night and came away completely understanding why the prequel trilogy was doomed from the very beginning.

You can pretty much sum it up with the quote by George Lucas of "Jar Jar is the key role" towards the beginning.

The very end of the video is downright sad when you can see in George's face and hear in his voice that he realized he (hopefully temporarily) broke Star Wars.

Enjoy.

NebraskaRed
08-23-2013, 02:44 PM
Spielberg gives Lucas the least reassuring feedback ever: "Uh-huh. Great. Yeah, sounds great. Great. That'll be great" while sounding like he doesn't mean a single word of it.

Cool video. Thanks for sharing!

medford
08-23-2013, 03:19 PM
Interesting. The other day, I saw a youtube clip from a 1990 episode of Siskel & Ebert "the future of the movies" special with interviews of Scorsasi (I know I butchered that spelling), Lucas and Speilberg. They talk about their views of their immediate future, the future of film, how they envision HD tvs (remember this is 1990 and HD tvs were very futuristic at the time) affected movie theaters, etc...

At one point, either Siskel or Ebert asked Lucas about his plans for the Star Wars. George talks about how he's in the begining stages of development, but that the movie would have focused on Obie One Kanobe. If he had stuck to that, it could have been more successful in my mind. Rather he had the role of Old Ben's growth split up w/ Jar Jar binks, a character we had never meet before and most found annoying and young Annakin, played by a young actor w/ little experience. Worst of all, they took a character that we all knew we were going to hate in the long run and tried to present him as this cute, little adorable kid that we should all love. That could have worked if they made episode 1 prior to episode 4, 5 & 6, but when you already have it in your mind that you're going to hate the character, don't try to sell some cute fluffy kid no us and expect us to feel emphathy for the character.

RedTeamGo!
08-23-2013, 05:01 PM
Interesting. The other day, I saw a youtube clip from a 1990 episode of Siskel & Ebert "the future of the movies" special with interviews of Scorsasi (I know I butchered that spelling), Lucas and Speilberg. They talk about their views of their immediate future, the future of film, how they envision HD tvs (remember this is 1990 and HD tvs were very futuristic at the time) affected movie theaters, etc...

At one point, either Siskel or Ebert asked Lucas about his plans for the Star Wars. George talks about how he's in the begining stages of development, but that the movie would have focused on Obie One Kanobe. If he had stuck to that, it could have been more successful in my mind. Rather he had the role of Old Ben's growth split up w/ Jar Jar binks, a character we had never meet before and most found annoying and young Annakin, played by a young actor w/ little experience. Worst of all, they took a character that we all knew we were going to hate in the long run and tried to present him as this cute, little adorable kid that we should all love. That could have worked if they made episode 1 prior to episode 4, 5 & 6, but when you already have it in your mind that you're going to hate the character, don't try to sell some cute fluffy kid no us and expect us to feel emphathy for the character.

The idea of Obi Won as the main character is very interesting. After I watched this video last night I clicked another youtube video where a fan talks about about how he would fix Episode 1 and his main idea was Obi Won being the main character, having no Jar Jar and Anakin being in his late teens. Once he broke his idea down it really comes off as genius.

RedTeamGo!
08-23-2013, 05:03 PM
Spielberg gives Lucas the least reassuring feedback ever: "Uh-huh. Great. Yeah, sounds great. Great. That'll be great" while sounding like he doesn't mean a single word of it.

Cool video. Thanks for sharing!

I completely agree with the Speilberg scene, that was full out patronizing. It would have been interesting to see that with a hidden camera, wouldn't be surprising if Speilberg told him dumb it all sounded.

Towards the beginning of the video when he is talking to his underlings it almost seems to me that everyone wants to say how stupid this all seems but they are afraid to say it to Lucas.

medford
08-23-2013, 05:35 PM
The idea of Obi Won as the main character is very interesting. After I watched this video last night I clicked another youtube video where a fan talks about about how he would fix Episode 1 and his main idea was Obi Won being the main character, having no Jar Jar and Anakin being in his late teens. Once he broke his idea down it really comes off as genius.

I think they should have presented Annakin as a little older like you said, but also kind of like the role of John Conner in T2, a troubled youth, with some mix of good and bad that he struggles with. Since we already know he's going bad, it would have been easy to root against him and believe the transition a little more.

I also wonder if anyone ever spoke up to fix Lucas' dialogue in the 3 prequels. There are so many piss poor lines in those movies, I can't believe they're even in there. The most memorable for me is when Annikan is talking to Padamin and tells here how he hates sand b/c its rough and course, unlike her soft, smooth skin. Still makes me cringe.

Tom Servo
08-23-2013, 05:41 PM
Yeah I think making Anikan so young was a big mistake, there was really no actor that young who could convincingly live up to being the future Darth Vader. I get that they wanted to flesh things out, but he could have easily just been around Luke's age to start.

Joseph
08-23-2013, 06:49 PM
Jake Lloyd >>> Hayden Christensen

Yachtzee
08-23-2013, 08:21 PM
How would I fix episodes 1-3? The obvious first choice is dump Jar Jar. The second would be to have some scriptwriters and a casting director who understood the what made episodes 4-6 great. My feeling is that what made those films great were the interplay between Han Solo, Leia, Obi Wan, Chewbacca, Luke, Yoda, and the droids. They used a lot of snark and sarcasm and seemed like real people. The characters in episodes 1-3 seemed so uptight and humorless. I would have cast young Anakin as more of a streetwise young kid rather than a cute innocent boy. Obi Wan and Yoda needed some of the wit they had in the original trilogy. I thought Samuel L. Jackson could have been great as a Jedi, but even his lines come off wooden. It would have been better if Anakin and Padme were around the same age. In Episode 1, she seems more of a surrogate big sister to Anakin, which makes the romance between them in the later films seem awkward, even without the terrible dialogue.

klw
08-23-2013, 08:31 PM
Ages are wierd throughout the 6 movies. Anakin is young compared to Padme at the start but quickly gets of age while she does not turn into a cougar. Obi-Wan also does not age during this time. Anakin becomes Darth. Luke and Leah are born, share some inapropriate brother sister kisses and don't really seem the same age. Obi-Wan suddenly ages a lot in the 20 years or so of Luke's life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC1EMxC6V0s

improbus
08-23-2013, 09:00 PM
The reason those movies aren't very good:
Jedi's are really boring (when not laser sword fighting). Who wants to watch "Monks in Space"?

19braves77
08-24-2013, 01:29 AM
Here is my problem with the three films:

1. No mystery on who the Emperor would be....

2. The Clone Wars being very lame

3. Not seeing Vader do anything awesome once the mask was on......


I think the last thirty minutes of ROTS rivals any thirty minute time span from the first three films.

KronoRed
08-24-2013, 03:02 AM
The first film didn't need to exist, start with the 2nd and cover the little plot we got out of the 1st in dialogue, then you can have two movies to cover the rise of Vader/empire.

Also, dump the awful actors, Lucas can't write for crap but give it to decent actors like the original trilogy and you might have something.

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2013, 05:18 AM
My biggest beef with this movie -- and I still can't wrap my mind around it -- is ALL the buildup and previews played up his Darth Maul character up like he was one of the central figures in the thing. Then he's in the movie for what amounts to a cup of coffee. Totally missed an opportunity with him IMO. Should have had a much bigger role and more time on screen.

klw
08-25-2013, 01:35 PM
Best part of the three prequels:
http://gotchamovies.com/ul/photos/movie/star-wars-episode-i-the-phantom-menace/7d29569725b31817f4f4bd9a2ec34f1f-sc.jpg
wardrobe not story line
Second best was Ewan McGregor.

Caveat Emperor
08-25-2013, 03:50 PM
Episode 1's main problem (beyond the awful dialogue, shaky pacing, and generally low-stakes plot) is that it's completely unnecessary in the greater storyline.

The movie introduces 3 "major" characters who had, before this film, had never been referenced in the original trilogy -- Qui Gon Jinn, Darth Maul, and Jar Jar Binks -- and then proceeds to kill off two of them. The third, Jar Jar, becomes a background character for the remainder of the trilogy.

They could just as easily have started the trilogy with Episode 2 and have the entire thing make just as much sense. Doing that actually makes MORE sense, because it starts Anakin out (for the viewers) at roughly the same age you meet Luke in "A New Hope" -- then the two trilogies become mirrors of one another with the contrast of choices between Anakin Skywalker (turning to the Dark Side) and Luke Skywalker (resisting the temptation and remaining true) that ultimately leads to both their salvations.

You also don't have to go through mental gymnastics to make the Anakin / Padme romance make sense chronologically, and you immediately start with real action as opposed to a low-stakes conflict about a trade dispute and blockade around an otherwise unimportant planet. It also ties in better with the dialogue in the original trilogy (Obi Wan's statement about Anakin being a great star pilot when he met him -- really, a 7 year old kid? Come on.).

The other main problem is that they did just a terrible job of explaining why Anakin fell. The whole character arc seems tremendously unsatisfying because, again, the spend an entire movie with him as a useless kid where you never get a sense of who/what he is or what makes him tick. If you start with Episode 2, you can do an entire movie of him being a generally affable dude and buddies with Obi Wan before doing something to him that starts the process of his turning.

RedTeamGo!
08-26-2013, 12:19 AM
http://www.slashfilm.com/topher-grace-edited-star-wars-prequels-85minute-movie/

This is kind of similar to what you are saying caveat.

Topher Grace did a cut of all three films into 1 85 minute version and cut out all of phantom menace except for the final scene where Qui Gon dies. After thinking about it I really do think that would have been a perfect start to episode 1. No need to even show Anakin, just have Qui Gon die and ask for Obi Wan to train him. I also like how the cut ends with Darth's helmet being lowered on.

Dom Heffner
08-26-2013, 12:31 AM
These are amongst the worst films ever made. Horrible.

RedTeamGo!
08-26-2013, 12:49 AM
These are amongst the worst films ever made. Horrible.

I agree with your statement. Until recently I just considered these movies a massive disappointment and really bad, but for some reason the last few days I have been looking up a lot of videos on youtube concerning these movies and have watched a few videos (1-2 hour videos haha) by fans really breaking down what is wrong with these "films" and it is kind of crazy how much went wrong. So much went wrong it almost seems like Lucas did it on purpose.

Dom: Did you watch the video I posted in the OP? Rick McCollum's face after the screening is the best/worst part for me. He just looks so horrified at what they created. The sad part is he and GL still made millions upon millions of dollars off of these stinkers.

Caveat Emperor
08-27-2013, 12:46 AM
These are amongst the worst films ever made. Horrible.

They aren't good by any stretch of the imagination and range from bad (1) to watchably mediocre (3).

But, worst movies ever made? Not even close. Especially in the sci-fi genre, it gets a lot worse than these three.

improbus
08-27-2013, 08:48 PM
These are amongst the worst films ever made. Horrible.
When you combine the weight of the previous movies, the budgets involved, and the level of excitement for their release, yes, I would agree. Somehow George Lucas submarined a franchise that even Ewoks couldn't bring down.

top6
08-28-2013, 03:33 PM
I guess I won't link to them, because they are really not family/Reds Zone friendly, but I highly recommend the Red Letter Media reviews of the prequels by Plinkett.

Each one is an hour+ and is basically a thorough and devastating take down of Lucas and each movie. He actually uses most of the footage in the video in the OP.

They are on You Tube.

NebraskaRed
08-28-2013, 03:41 PM
Revenge of the Sith isn't perfect by any means (with the exception of Empire, none of them are), but it's a good movie. Better than Return of the Jedi.

RedTeamGo!
08-28-2013, 04:32 PM
I guess I won't link to them, because they are really not family/Reds Zone friendly, but I highly recommend the Red Letter Media reviews of the prequels by Plinkett.

Each one is an hour+ and is basically a thorough and devastating take down of Lucas and each movie. He actually uses most of the footage in the video in the OP.

They are on You Tube.

I have watched his review of episode 1 and am about halfway through episode 2. they are hilarious and he hits the nail right on the head.

Dom Heffner
08-28-2013, 04:41 PM
They aren't good by any stretch of the imagination and range from bad (1) to watchably mediocre (3).

But, worst movies ever made? Not even close. Especially in the sci-fi genre, it gets a lot worse than these three.

What Improbus said.

They aren't Plan 9 From Outer Space, but given their context, they are up there.

I remember sitting there watching Episode I and thinking that I hadn't seen something that was as big a commercial release being that terrible.

From Lucas' dialogue- which is laugh out bad- to those annoying screen slides he does when the action changes locale....it's nearly unwatchable.

I know we all love movies and we can all say we know bad when I see it....but these are atrocious at a level rarely seen for major studio releases.

RedTeamGo!
08-28-2013, 04:48 PM
What Improbus said.

They aren't Plan 9 From Outer Space, but given their context, they are up there.

I remember sitting there watching Episode I and thinking that I hadn't seen something that was as big a commercial release being that terrible.

From Lucas' dialogue- which is laugh out bad- to those annoying screen slides he does when the action changes locale....it's nearly unwatchable.

I know we all love movies and we can all say we know bad when I see it....but these are atrocious at a level rarely seen for major studio releases.

The reason it is so rare is because studios do not like giving a lot of creative control to the director. In this case Lucas had complete control including the script, direction, and casting. Not only are the movies themselves terrible, this has resulted in Hollywood being even more prudish about giving creative control to directors resulting in an even more commercial environment in film making.

This is basically the only example I can think of where the studio execs stepping in and having someone else write the script or taken Lucas completely away from casting would have made such a huge difference.

Dom Heffner
08-28-2013, 04:53 PM
The reason it is so rare is because studios do not like giving a lot of creative control to the director. In this case Lucas had complete control including the script, direction, and casting. Not only are the movies themselves terrible, this has resulted in Hollywood being even more prudish about giving creative control to directors resulting in an even more commercial environment in film making.

Good post.

The first three were pretty good movies because they were set after a bunch of events had already taken place unseen. That backstory gave the story an epic feel.

To go back and show the audience what we already knew and to do it with better technology...I mean, it made no sense.

RedTeamGo!
08-28-2013, 05:00 PM
Good post.

The first three were pretty good movies because they were set after a bunch of events had already taken place unseen. That backstory gave the story an epic feel.

To go back and show the audience what we already knew and to do it with better technology...I mean, it made no sense.

Absolutely correct. Really, if you go back through the history of fantasy and sci fi epics they very commonly begin shortly after a huge event or war has taken place.

19braves77
08-28-2013, 11:12 PM
I defend Revenge of the Sith but once you ask these questions I quit:

1. How did the Sith come about and why ?

2. Why does the Senate break into applause when Palpatine proclaims an Empire?

klw
08-29-2013, 10:15 AM
The politics of the series just makes me confused. It seems a jumbled mess which might be the point but it just gets wierd- especially with the Jedi and stormtroopers are fighting together but later they are not. Why is it there is a droid army in the prequels that seem more advanced technologically than anything in the original 3? Then there is that robotic general that coughs (ep 2?) that is clearly more advanced tech than anything later on. Did the clone wars set back the tech world?

NebraskaRed
08-29-2013, 11:14 AM
The politics of the series just makes me confused. It seems a jumbled mess which might be the point but it just gets wierd- especially with the Jedi and stormtroopers are fighting together but later they are not. Why is it there is a droid army in the prequels that seem more advanced technologically than anything in the original 3? Then there is that robotic general that coughs (ep 2?) that is clearly more advance tech than anything later on. Did the clone wars set back the tech world?

I think the idea was that tech/culture flourishes under the good guys, and regresses under the bad guys. The world is more colorful and full in the first 3 (mainly the first 2) because evil hasn't taken over, and the world is more drained of color and life in episodes 4,5, and 6 because that's what happens under a totalitarian regime.

That seems to have been the idea, anyway.

Caveat Emperor
08-29-2013, 02:51 PM
I defend Revenge of the Sith but once you ask these questions I quit:

1. How did the Sith come about and why ?

2. Why does the Senate break into applause when Palpatine proclaims an Empire?

As depicted on screen, the entire concept of the Sith seems incredibly silly. You have a galaxy with hundreds of billions of inhabitants and just two people are allowed to be in Sith Order? Daft.

The way the Sith are depicted in the "Knights of the Old Republic" series -- as an entire race of people being LED by force users -- makes marginally more sense.

sonny
10-28-2013, 12:29 PM
My son and I are home sick today and doing a Star Wars marathon. We're on Episode II and I have totally forgotten what a festering turd of a film this is.

1. Jango Fett sucks- a total crowd pleasing move to recreate one of the most bad asses in the SW universe falls flat. And he's the source for all the clones - double dumb

2. R2 can fly? Stoopid

3. The love story. Remarkably bad. Natalie portman's white outfit is the only bright spot here

4. Geonosis is a planet inhabited by giant ruthless bugs who create and run a highly sophisticated droid factory but can't find the time to invent pants

5. Yoda's warm feelings. Say this, Jedis do not.

6. Darth Vader loses his reputation as a bad ass when we learn he was originally a whiny idiot with no acting chops. He also surfs on animals

7. Count Dooku is the best name George could think of? Sir Christopher Lee does an admiral job as a statue

8. Jar Jar Binks unwittingly handing complete control to Palpatine. Finally, the prophecy of the Gungans being used to bring unbalance to the force has been fulfilled.

9. Samuel L Jackson as Mace Windu is less BAMF than his role on the Capitol One credit card commercials

10. The hundreds of highly trained Jedis can't handle slightly larger robots than ones used by the trade federation in Episode I

On to Episode III later. Shoot me.

Caveat Emperor
10-28-2013, 12:46 PM
Episode III is actually a decent movie -- it's nowhere near as good as any of the original trilogy, but it's at least watchable and largely avoids the absolutely abysmal dialogue of the first two prequels (I think the rumor is that Tom Stoppard did an uncredited touch-up to the script).

sonny
10-28-2013, 03:17 PM
Episode III

1. General Grievous is introduced. A coughing robot with a heart who uses it for wielding six light sabers instead of making The Outer Rim safer for all it's citizens

2. "Hold me like you did on Naboo"

3. Finally we get the Wookie Planet of Kashyyk that nerds in their mothers' basements have been clamoring about.

4. The only mode of transportation Obi-Wan can find is an inefficient yelping rainbow lizard to chase after General Grievous

4. Anakin dreams of Padme's death. If only he'd dreamt of this trilogy

5. The separatist seem to have zero clue what they're even separating against.

6. Chancellor Palpatine's wardrobe would rival that of Queen Amidala and my wife.

7. Anakin turns to the dark side after the death Pulp Fiction's Jules. Marcellus Wallace wants somebody hiding in a rice paddy ready to pop a cap in him

8. Jules brings 4 master Jedis with him to dispatch of Palpatine but the Chancellor destroys two of them while the other two watch.

9. In a very ehem, emotional sequence, all but two of the Jedi are brutally murdered at the request of the Emperor. Very poignant seeing the fall of Kai-Ali Mundi

10. Padme passes after "Losing the will to live" echoing sentiments audiences and critics alike shared after witnessing the prequel trilogy.