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WrongVerb
11-04-2013, 07:24 AM
Article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486808/Veteran-Miami-Dolphins-forced-rookies-fund-30-000-meals-trips.html)


Almost the ENTIRE Miami Dolphins team accused of bullying: Veteran stars 'made younger players subsidize their luxury lifestyle and fund $30,000 dinners and trips to Vegas'

traderumor
11-04-2013, 08:51 AM
The smoke signals I'm reading are this: some player (Incognito---oh the irony of the name for this story) has developed a self-serving gang, Martin refused to go along, they were relentless in their emotional and verbal abuse, he is sensitive and not used to such childish behavior, and couldn't take it anymore. The rest of the rookies have been convinced this is "normal," so they play along.

Incognito Twitter translation: "Whatever they said, its not true."

I think Incognito and his posse's favorite movie is likely "North Dallas Forty."

Redsfaithful
11-04-2013, 09:27 AM
Reading rumors of rookies getting stuck with $30k team dinner bills, which is ridiculous. The rookie rate is like $400k, you take out agent/lawyer fees, taxes and a $30k night is probably 1/7 of their yearly take home.

Interesting that Martin is Stanford educated and his parents are highly educated. Meanwhile, on that line, you have Incognito with a horrible reputation and Pouncey who ran with Aaron Hernandez.

Jason Whitlock made the point that you used to be able to settle this sort of thing with fists, now you don't know if the other guy might have a gun - which sounds pretty accurate with Pouncey.

kaldaniels
11-04-2013, 09:27 AM
As a Cleveland fan I can't stand the Steelers or Tomlin...but this blurb made me respect the man.


“When I was in Pittsburgh,’’ Colon said, “Mike Tomlin said something great: It’s unfair to make a sixth-round guy pay for a $15,000 trip to Vegas when you have your starting linemen making over two-point-something million [dollars]. [Martin was a second-round pick.] He doesn’t have that money. Guys don’t earn that money until later in their careers. To make a young guy pay that is very unfair, and it’s selfish because that man has a family and people and other needs. So to take $15,000 out of any young guy’s pocket for a trip to get crazy is unfair, and it’s selfish. If you want to let a guy pay for dinner or a night on the town, that’s fine. It’s nothing that should hurt a man’s life or his way of living; that’s disrespectful.’’

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/04/gary-kubiak-jonathan-martin-monday-morning-quarterback/7/

Boston Red
11-04-2013, 09:36 AM
Martin sounds like kind of a wuss.

Chip R
11-04-2013, 10:06 AM
I haven't heard all the details about this but it sure sounds like a whole lot more than having to pay 15K for a trip to Vegas.

chicoruiz
11-04-2013, 10:56 AM
Martin sounds like kind of a wuss.

Nope, in my book the wusses are the rookies who let the veterans take 15k out of their pocket without standing up and saying something about it...

MWM
11-04-2013, 12:09 PM
If this all turns out to be true, the most interesting thing might be how Goodell decides to address it. It may be treated the same as the bounty scandal in New Orleans, but I could see him coming down hard on those involved.

Forcing them to pay that kind of money for anything is ridiculous, and I don't care how much the rookie got at signing. Make them carry your equipment, or other such things. But taking money out of their pocket, regardless of how much it is, is just wrong.

I have a feeling when we learn everything that happened, it's not going to be pretty.

Redsfaithful
11-04-2013, 12:33 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 11m

NFL has heard Richie Incognito's VM to Jonathan Martin. Dolphins have heard the voice mail.

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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 12m

4. Incognito to Martin, all on same VM in April 2013: "(Expletive) you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 12m

3. Incognito VM to Martin: "(I'm going to) slap your (expletive) mouth. (I'm going to) slap your real mother across the face (laughter).

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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 13m

2. More Incognito to Martin: "I saw you on Twitter, you been training ten weeks. (I want to) (expletive) in your (expl) mouth....

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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 14m

1: Richie Incognito left this VM for Jonathan Martin in April 2013: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of (expletive)...

Boston Red
11-04-2013, 12:38 PM
Incognito seems like kind of a psycho.

Patrick Bateman
11-04-2013, 12:38 PM
Martin sounds like kind of a wuss.

Cool Richie's Dad posts on Redszone too!

Caveat Emperor
11-04-2013, 01:39 PM
I'm amazed how often the people involved in running the NFL and running teams forget that an NFL locker room is a workplace, subject to rules no different than any office or shop floor.

RedTeamGo!
11-04-2013, 02:09 PM
Breaking News: NFL football players are crazy people

redsfanmia
11-04-2013, 02:50 PM
Incognito is such a bad guy he got kicked off the Nebraska football team for bad conduct, that's saying something.

Yachtzee
11-04-2013, 04:22 PM
I'm amazed how often the people involved in running the NFL and running teams forget that an NFL locker room is a workplace, subject to rules no different than any office or shop floor.

My concern: you hear about people subjected to bullying snapping and bringing a gun into school or the workplace and shooting people. The NFL might want to crack down on this before a tragedy occurs.

Wonderful Monds
11-04-2013, 04:31 PM
Cool Richie's Dad posts on Redszone too!

I think Cool Richie got killed on Boardwalk Empire last night.

Chip R
11-04-2013, 04:34 PM
My concern: you hear about people subjected to bullying snapping and bringing a gun into school or the workplace and shooting people. The NFL might want to crack down on this before a tragedy occurs.

That's an excellent point. A lot of athletes enjoy bringing their weapons into the locker room to show off or for personal protection but there could come a day where an athlete goes postal over a real or perceived problem.

KronoRed
11-04-2013, 04:36 PM
Yeah it's an nfl locker room but act like an adult, certainly being paid enough, his dad's posting shows its a family thing.

Tom Servo
11-04-2013, 06:56 PM
Richie Incognito is making Riley Cooper look like Medgar Evers.

MWM
11-04-2013, 07:58 PM
Incognito seemed to have some kind of obsession with Martin. Martin seems like a pretty intelligent and stable guy. Based on what we know so far, I can't blame him for feeling unsafe and taking the action he took.

WVRed
11-04-2013, 09:01 PM
If this all turns out to be true, the most interesting thing might be how Goodell decides to address it. It may be treated the same as the bounty scandal in New Orleans, but I could see him coming down hard on those involved.

I have nothing personal against the Miami Dolphins, but I really think Goodell should come down hard on them and the players involved for this reason:

Bullying is a real issue, not just in the NFL but in schools all across the country. Think of the high school or middle school kids who watch ESPN and are impressionable enough to think Richie Incognito is a role model and Jonathan Martin is a wuss. Even though we as adults see things differently, with children and teenagers it isn't as cut and dry. The NFL needs to send a message that shows a zero tolerance for bullying, similar to the Saints with the bounties. If not, you're sending a message to kids that bullying is ok and there are no consequences if you do it.

Chip R
11-04-2013, 09:35 PM
I have nothing personal against the Miami Dolphins, but I really think Goodell should come down hard on them and the players involved for this reason:

Bullying is a real issue, not just in the NFL but in schools all across the country. Think of the high school or middle school kids who watch ESPN and are impressionable enough to think Richie Incognito is a role model and Jonathan Martin is a wuss. Even though we as adults see things differently, with children and teenagers it isn't as cut and dry. The NFL needs to send a message that shows a zero tolerance for bullying, similar to the Saints with the bounties. If not, you're sending a message to kids that bullying is ok and there are no consequences if you do it.

I'm a Dolphins fan and the whole thing makes me sick. However this is new ground for the NFL. They have to define what bullying is. If bullying is being made to contribute 15K to a trip to Vegas, then shouldn't being made to buy dinner for some vets the same thing? Is being told to carry practice dummies bullying? Sing the school song? Where do you draw the line? And when you do draw that line, what is acceptable punishment? Who do you punish? The player in question? The team? Is it a fine? Loss of draft choice(s)?

It's tricky also because even though Martin came forward, will others? If they do, are they going to be ostracized by teammates and/or coaches? In Martin's case, it's doubtful he'll play for MIA again. Are other GMs going to take a chance on him? Will they be reluctant to sign him because they worry that if anyone looks sideways at Martin he's going to holler about bullying? I seriously doubt Incognito will play in the NFL again so the most you could do is fine him. What about the other players? Incognito is getting all the blame but you have to think he hasn't acted alone. This whole thing was reportedly set up because all the linemen left when Martin went to sit down with them. Maybe all that was Incognito's idea but the others didn't have to go along with it. I'm not saying Martin is to blame but why did he take this so long without standing up for himself? Was he worried about all the other linemen who followed Incognito? I know he didn't want to be a snitch but you have to stand up for yourself too.

Nathan
11-04-2013, 09:53 PM
http://www.nfl.com/incognito

Premature?

Yachtzee
11-04-2013, 10:25 PM
I'm a Dolphins fan and the whole thing makes me sick. However this is new ground for the NFL. They have to define what bullying is. If bullying is being made to contribute 15K to a trip to Vegas, then shouldn't being made to buy dinner for some vets the same thing? Is being told to carry practice dummies bullying? Sing the school song? Where do you draw the line? And when you do draw that line, what is acceptable punishment? Who do you punish? The player in question? The team? Is it a fine? Loss of draft choice(s)?

It's tricky also because even though Martin came forward, will others? If they do, are they going to be ostracized by teammates and/or coaches? In Martin's case, it's doubtful he'll play for MIA again. Are other GMs going to take a chance on him? Will they be reluctant to sign him because they worry that if anyone looks sideways at Martin he's going to holler about bullying? I seriously doubt Incognito will play in the NFL again so the most you could do is fine him. What about the other players? Incognito is getting all the blame but you have to think he hasn't acted alone. This whole thing was reportedly set up because all the linemen left when Martin went to sit down with them. Maybe all that was Incognito's idea but the others didn't have to go along with it. I'm not saying Martin is to blame but why did he take this so long without standing up for himself? Was he worried about all the other linemen who followed Incognito? I know he didn't want to be a snitch but you have to stand up for yourself too.

I think the reason Incognito is the only one suspended so far is that they had pretty clear evidence based on voicemail and texts that he was going well beyond what is considered playful messing with the rookies and harsh bullying. It's one thing to make rookies sing a fight song or wear a Hello Kitty backpack on a road trip. But making rookies pay for extravagant trips and dinners they didn't go to and then harrassing them by phone and text is something else. That seems less like an initiation into being part of the gang and more like the playground bully who takes your lunch money and threatens to beat you up if you don't bring more next time.

So far we don't know who else might have been involved, so it would be premature for the Dolphins and the league to hand out more suspensions until they know more. It's important to make sure they determine the extent of the harrassment, who was involved and what was the extent of the involvement. In any case, I think the Dolphins are going to have to seriously examine the culture in the clubhouse and make some serious changes. I think the NFL is going to have to put guidelines in place to deal with future incidents. I doubt Incognito is suspended permanently because an arbitrator would likely overturn it. I think his suspension lasts until the investigation is completed, then the Dolphins decide whether to set a defined suspension or just cut him so that he can sign with a new team. It's going to be tougher for Martin. He will likely find it difficult to stay with the Dolphins, and it may take a team with strong veteran leadership willing to take him in under their wing. I get the feeling Incognito will be back on the field before Martin is.

The Operator
11-05-2013, 12:55 AM
I get the feeling Incognito will be back on the field before Martin is.After reading those racially charged text messages, I bet there won't be many African American players in the game who'd be willing to have his back.

He may get a job, but hopefully he'll have hell to pay for his behavior no matter where he goes.

Caveat Emperor
11-05-2013, 08:41 AM
After reading those racially charged text messages, I bet there won't be many African American players in the game who'd be willing to have his back.

In other news, Riley Cooper had 3 TD and 100+ yards receiving on Sunday.

Chip R
11-05-2013, 09:55 AM
Some NFL personnel believe Martin should have kept this in-house and believe he's a coward.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20131104/nfl-personnel-question-jonathan-martin-richie-incognito/?sct=hp_t12_a1&eref=sihp

redhawkfish
11-05-2013, 10:07 AM
Stuff like this will continue to happen as long as the phrase "boys will be boys" or as the article says "guys will be guys" is considered a valid excuse for moronic behavior everywhere!

The Operator
11-05-2013, 10:23 AM
In other news, Riley Cooper had 3 TD and 100+ yards receiving on Sunday.That doesn't mean his teammates don't hate him, though.

Caveat Emperor
11-05-2013, 10:23 AM
Some NFL personnel believe Martin should have kept this in-house and believe he's a coward.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20131104/nfl-personnel-question-jonathan-martin-richie-incognito/?sct=hp_t12_a1&eref=sihp

It goes back to my original point that the people who play the game (and far too many people who run teams -- many of whom are ex-players) simply don't understand that the NFL is a multi-billion dollar business and that these locker rooms are places of employment.

Can you imagine if managers or HR reps at P&G or Apple told an employee who was having problems with a co-worker that the two should handle it with a fight? Or that allegations of racial-slurs and harassment should be a private matter between the two?

The NFL should impose an immediate gag-order, league wide, on this issue -- because everything being said right now (publicly and privately) is fodder for a huge future lawsuit.

Yachtzee
11-05-2013, 10:34 AM
Some NFL personnel believe Martin should have kept this in-house and believe he's a coward.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20131104/nfl-personnel-question-jonathan-martin-richie-incognito/?sct=hp_t12_a1&eref=sihp

Nothing like blaming the victim. I find this kind of response troubling. Maybe if there were veterans willing to take control of the locker room and give Martin some help in that situation, it wouldn't have gotten that far. On the other hand, if you're expecting rookies to either just deal with it or stand up for themselves on their own without taking it outside the locker room, you're just asking for someone to get pushed to the point where they bring a gun to the locker room and start blowing people away. People should be talking about how Martin did the right thing by leaving and reporting it to the team. A suspended Richie Incognito is better than a dead Richie Incognito, let alone however many teammates get caught in the crossfire. Rather than being labeled "soft," Martin should be applauded for doing the right thing.

Chip R
11-05-2013, 10:36 AM
It goes back to my original point that the people who play the game (and far too many people who run teams -- many of whom are ex-players) simply don't understand that the NFL is a multi-billion dollar business and that these locker rooms are places of employment.

That reminds me of that quote from North Dallas Forty, "Every time I call it a game, you call it a business. And every time I call it a business, you call it a game."

Yachtzee
11-05-2013, 10:47 AM
I would also note the irony in the SI article of people calling a man a "coward" or "soft," but doing so on condition of anonymity. Way to "man up, " chief.

bucksfan2
11-05-2013, 11:01 AM
I wonder if Martin ever stood up or if his teammates ever took notice of the way Incognito was treating him. It appears that Incognito had a beef with Martin that has lasted for 2 seasons now. It is also disturbing that Martin had no one to turn to, not another offensive lineman, not a coach, not a single player. To be honest any time they put a mic in front of a Dolphin player and ask him about the situation they end up looking like fools.

But the more you look at it, what were the Dolphins doing? They have Pouncy who was photographed with a Free Hernandez hat on earlier this off season and has been connected with Hernandez in a interstate gun running organization. Kind of class individual you want in your locker room. They had Martin walk away from the team because of everything Incognito was doing 2 days before a Thursday night game, a game in which everyone played before they decided to look any further.

The thing I see is your paid to win in the NFL. If Pouncey received a subpoena for grand jury testimony against Hernandez about his past I would imagine any business outside of professional sports would suspend him. If Martin walks away from the team sighting emotional distress two days before game day don't you think someone may want to look a little deeper before a game? IMO Philbin is a coward. He could have made a difference in the locker room but he decided that winning was more important. If everything goes according to schedule the Dolphins will have won 2 games during this firestorm and be looking at a wild card spot. Winning is everything in the NFL.

traderumor
11-05-2013, 11:10 AM
Some NFL personnel believe Martin should have kept this in-house and believe he's a coward.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20131104/nfl-personnel-question-jonathan-martin-richie-incognito/?sct=hp_t12_a1&eref=sihp

Yea, keeping it in-house results in cover-ups and brush offs. It also may be a hostile work environment and management may not be receptive. It really isn't fair to say there is a set way to handle conflict in the workplace. Apparently these boys don't like whistleblower rules, yet they afford protection to those who find themselves in hostile work environments that keeps them from doing their job and earning a living. In a set up like the NFL, it isn't like you can just quit and go find another job doing the same thing.

dougdirt
11-05-2013, 11:22 AM
Rookies paying big bills for veterans?

That has been happening for years and years (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/news/story?id=5626300).

Sports are weird. For some reason hazing is accepted as a part of the culture. "It brings us closer" is the usual excuse. I never understood it. Purposefully embarrassing me makes me hate you, not makes us better friends.

traderumor
11-05-2013, 11:32 AM
Rookies paying big bills for veterans?

That has been happening for years and years (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/news/story?id=5626300).

Sports are weird. For some reason hazing is accepted as a part of the culture. "It brings us closer" is the usual excuse. I never understood it. Purposefully embarrassing me makes me hate you, not makes us better friends.

I'm sure there are examples of similar behavior, but this is like comparing paddle and toga rituals in a frat with alcohol poisoning inducing frat rituals. This Miami stuff is over the top.

dougdirt
11-05-2013, 11:35 AM
I'm sure there are examples of similar behavior, but this is like comparing paddle and toga rituals in a frat with alcohol poisoning inducing frat rituals. This Miami stuff is over the top.

Absolutely. I wasn't trying to compare the situations at all. Simply pointing out that one part of it has been going on all over the NFL for a while and that other parts of it go on elsewhere too. And it is always dumb and makes no sense.

What is going on, or was going on in Miami is all of that with about 10 extra doses of psycho added on.

Todd Gack
11-05-2013, 11:54 AM
Incognito seems like kind of a psycho.

You guys should Google some of things he did at Nebraska. He has a long history of being crazy.

SunDeck
11-05-2013, 05:06 PM
Wow, a very large man who has been taught to hit things and push other people around, to summon his deepest aggression and unleash it upon other people turns out to be a mean person?
Imagine that.

The NFL needs guys to tear each other apart, to hit harder, to hate the guy on the other side of the line. It's surprising to me that more of them aren't as off the hook as Ingognito.

Yachtzee
11-05-2013, 06:34 PM
I keep hearing more from NFL players laying some of the blame on Martin. If I'm the NFL, I think it would be wise to put a gag order on players and team officials from talking about it until the league can come out with an official response. Why? Because every time someone puts some of the blame on Martin, it's sending the wrong message, particularly to high school and college players who might be subject to bullying and harrassment. They're basically saying that if you tell administrators you're being bullied by teammates, you're not a man.

dougdirt
11-05-2013, 08:18 PM
I keep hearing more from NFL players laying some of the blame on Martin. If I'm the NFL, I think it would be wise to put a gag order on players and team officials from talking about it until the league can come out with an official response. Why? Because every time someone puts some of the blame on Martin, it's sending the wrong message, particularly to high school and college players who might be subject to bullying and harrassment. They're basically saying that if you tell administrators you're being bullied by teammates, you're not a man.

Same thing with playing while injured. These guys are taught, every step of the way, that you just deal with whatever the problem is, or you are less of a man.

Was it Jay Cutler a few years ago that tore something in his knee and players were talking about how weak he was before they ever knew the injury?

Concussions? Current players don't care much about those. Put me in coach. Just listen to them talk.

It is a part of their culture, right or wrong, and it is going to take a generation or more to get that kind of thinking out of the game.

hebroncougar
11-05-2013, 08:52 PM
Rookies paying big bills for veterans?

That has been happening for years and years (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/news/story?id=5626300).

Sports are weird. For some reason hazing is accepted as a part of the culture. "It brings us closer" is the usual excuse. I never understood it. Purposefully embarrassing me makes me hate you, not makes us better friends.

I can tell you this, this stuff happens in high school, and a coach, and AD, and potentially a principal are losing jobs over it.

MWM
11-05-2013, 09:26 PM
Uh oh, reports are now that Dolphins coaches asked Incignito to "toughen up" Martin. Good lord!

CTA513
11-05-2013, 10:01 PM
Uh oh, reports are now that Dolphins coaches asked Incignito to "toughen up" Martin. Good lord!

If true then we know why he went to the NFL for help instead of trying to keep this inside the Dolphins organization.

The Operator
11-05-2013, 10:20 PM
Uh oh, reports are now that Dolphins coaches asked Incignito to "toughen up" Martin. Good lord!That could also be Incognito's way of shifting blame.

"Don't blame me, the coaches told me to!!!"

Boston Red
11-06-2013, 01:02 PM
This is interesting. I am starting to think Incognito will be back in the league relatively soon:

"Well, I've spoken to multiple people today about this and the explanation from all of them is that in the Dolphins locker room, Richie Incognito was considered a black guy. He was accepted by the black players. He was an honorary black man.

And Jonathan Martin, who is bi-racial, was not. Indeed, Martin was considered less black than Incognito."

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2013/11/richie-incognito-considered-black-in-dolphins-locker-room.html#storylink=cpy

Yachtzee
11-06-2013, 01:46 PM
This is interesting. I am starting to think Incognito will be back in the league relatively soon:

"Well, I've spoken to multiple people today about this and the explanation from all of them is that in the Dolphins locker room, Richie Incognito was considered a black guy. He was accepted by the black players. He was an honorary black man.

And Jonathan Martin, who is bi-racial, was not. Indeed, Martin was considered less black than Incognito."

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2013/11/richie-incognito-considered-black-in-dolphins-locker-room.html#storylink=cpy

I don't think that article helps Incognito or the Dolphins.

Boston Red
11-06-2013, 01:49 PM
I don't think it helps the Dolphins, but I think it helps Incognito from the standpoint of whether another team would ever take him on. It sounds like he'd be welcome in most lockerrooms.

LoganBuck
11-06-2013, 01:50 PM
This is interesting. I am starting to think Incognito will be back in the league relatively soon:

"Well, I've spoken to multiple people today about this and the explanation from all of them is that in the Dolphins locker room, Richie Incognito was considered a black guy. He was accepted by the black players. He was an honorary black man.

And Jonathan Martin, who is bi-racial, was not. Indeed, Martin was considered less black than Incognito."

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2013/11/richie-incognito-considered-black-in-dolphins-locker-room.html#storylink=cpy

Dave Chappelle used to have a bit, if you saw a group of tough looking black guys walking down the street with one tough looking white guy, you were to fear the white guy, because he must have done something crazy to earn respect.

wolfboy
11-06-2013, 02:35 PM
Some may recall all the buzz prior to the season that an active gay player or players might come out during this season. I know it's unrelated, but doesn't this incident give some indication that the time might not be as right as some thought?

IslandRed
11-06-2013, 02:37 PM
Although a racial slur was used in that infamous voicemail, the people reporting the story haven't been framing it as an issue where using the n-word was the sole problem or even the primary problem. So we should be careful about assuming, hey, black players get along with Incognito so it's all cool. If he's back in the league relatively soon, it'll be because the team was found guilty of ordering him to do what he did, so he'll dodge ultimate responsibility. But no one wants a journeyman who'll tear down his teammates on his own initiative.

Chip R
11-06-2013, 02:54 PM
Totally unscientific observation but it seems that most active players asked about this are more in Incognito's corner than the retired players who are now talking heads.

Yachtzee
11-06-2013, 03:19 PM
Totally unscientific observation but it seems that most active players asked about this are more in Incognito's corner than the retired players who are now talking heads.

It makes me wonder if this kind of behavior is more prevalent in other team locker rooms, and some of these players don't want Incognito to go down because they're guilty of the same kind of behavior. The more these guys talk, the more questions it raises about how prevalent bullying, harassment, and intimidation are in NFL locker rooms. My feeling is that the NFL would be better served to come out with a definitive statement on the issue and let players know this kind of stuff won't be tolerated.

wolfboy
11-06-2013, 03:26 PM
It makes me wonder if this kind of behavior is more prevalent in other team locker rooms, and some of these players don't want Incognito to go down because they're guilty of the same kind of behavior. The more these guys talk, the more questions it raises about how prevalent bullying, harassment, and intimidation are in NFL locker rooms. My feeling is that the NFL would be better served to come out with a definitive statement on the issue and let players know this kind of stuff won't be tolerated.

I agree.

Chip R
11-06-2013, 04:35 PM
It makes me wonder if this kind of behavior is more prevalent in other team locker rooms, and some of these players don't want Incognito to go down because they're guilty of the same kind of behavior. The more these guys talk, the more questions it raises about how prevalent bullying, harassment, and intimidation are in NFL locker rooms. My feeling is that the NFL would be better served to come out with a definitive statement on the issue and let players know this kind of stuff won't be tolerated.

The problem is that it's difficult to define it. Where is the line? Yes, it does appear what Incognito did crossed the line. However, other players disagree. I think they probably believed the voice mails and some of the texts were not good but all the other stuff about what led to Martin walking out was all good, clean fun. They felt Martin should have stood up to Incognito if he felt he was being picked on. They certainly don't think he should have gone outside the team to solve his problem.

How many players - both current and former - are going to talk to Goodell, et. al. about this on the record? If it ever gets out that they talked to the league office about it there may be reprisals from not only their teammates but coaches and executives. We saw that article where a team executive said Martin was a coward.

The NFL can't drag their feet on this but they shouldn't be in a hurry to define what is bad behavior and what the punishment will be for offenders.

One of Incognito's problems is that he seems like a greedy guy. Someone interviewed him when Taneyhill (their QB) was drafted and Incognito remarked about how he expected some jet skis from him as a gift from a QB to the guys who protect him. Of course a QB giving his linemen gifts is nothing new but I'm guessing it's initiated by the QB. Now I don't know about anyone else but I don't ask for gifts unless someone asks me what gifts I want. I certainly don't tell them that I expect them to give me something. So he's hitting up the QB for jet skis and he's hitting up Martin for dinners and trips to Vegas.

The way I see this eventually playing out for the Dolphins is that Philbin, his coaching staff, the GM and Incognito will all be fired. Martin will be welcomed back with "open arms" but will not come back to MIA. In public they will all say the right things but privately they will decide that there's too much history there with his teammates for him to be accepted.

Yachtzee
11-06-2013, 04:56 PM
The problem is that it's difficult to define it. Where is the line? Yes, it does appear what Incognito did crossed the line. However, other players disagree. I think they probably believed the voice mails and some of the texts were not good but all the other stuff about what led to Martin walking out was all good, clean fun. They felt Martin should have stood up to Incognito if he felt he was being picked on. They certainly don't think he should have gone outside the team to solve his problem.

How many players - both current and former - are going to talk to Goodell, et. al. about this on the record? If it ever gets out that they talked to the league office about it there may be reprisals from not only their teammates but coaches and executives. We saw that article where a team executive said Martin was a coward.

The NFL can't drag their feet on this but they shouldn't be in a hurry to define what is bad behavior and what the punishment will be for offenders.

One of Incognito's problems is that he seems like a greedy guy. Someone interviewed him when Taneyhill (their QB) was drafted and Incognito remarked about how he expected some jet skis from him as a gift from a QB to the guys who protect him. Of course a QB giving his linemen gifts is nothing new but I'm guessing it's initiated by the QB. Now I don't know about anyone else but I don't ask for gifts unless someone asks me what gifts I want. I certainly don't tell them that I expect them to give me something. So he's hitting up the QB for jet skis and he's hitting up Martin for dinners and trips to Vegas.

The way I see this eventually playing out for the Dolphins is that Philbin, his coaching staff, the GM and Incognito will all be fired. Martin will be welcomed back with "open arms" but will not come back to MIA. In public they will all say the right things but privately they will decide that there's too much history there with his teammates for him to be accepted.

Where's the line? Well unfortunately I think the NFL is going to have to come down on the side of zero tolerance, if only because it's becoming clear that NFL players are on the wrong side of history when it comes to bullying. So even the "good clean fun" stuff is going to come under scrutiny.

For example, the Dolphins' players are definitely putting out a mixed message here. One article has players saying they didn't know about Martin's problems with Incognito and that Martin should have come to the so-called "leadership council" among the players to handle the issue. Yet in another article they seem pretty clear in saying that they view Incognito as one of their guys and even blacks view him as an honorary black, moreso than Martin who is actually half black. So they're basically saying Martin should have come to them, but they like Incognito better anyway, so the reality is that they would have at best done nothing and at worst joined in with Incognito and piled on Martin. In any case, it's clear Dolphins players are more willing to stick up for their buddy Incognito and throw Martin under the bus.

dubc47834
11-06-2013, 06:45 PM
That doesn't mean his teammates don't hate him, though.

His teammates love him. I'm reserving my judgment until everything comes out on this. Initially I was on Martins side, but as more and more comes out on this I just don't see him as totally a victim. Other black players on the Dolphins said they consider Incognito more black than Martin and that he is part of the brotherhood. Now that doesn't give him the right to call Martin what he called him, even if he talks to his other black teammates that way. To me it's a respect thing, respect to all that African Americans have gone thru in the past. My time in the military I have became VERY VERY close friends with black Soldiers and some would say I was their "boy" and that I could call them the N word. I ALWAYS said no, that I respected them more than that and didn't feel comfortable using that word. To me both Incognito and Martin are equally wrong in this and it will be very interesting to see what else comes out in this...this is FAR from over!

Wonderful Monds
11-06-2013, 06:54 PM
To me both Incognito and Martin are equally wrong in this
Sorry, incorrect.

Chip R
11-06-2013, 06:57 PM
To me both Incognito and Martin are equally wrong in this and it will be very interesting to see what else comes out in this...this is FAR from over!

In other words, Martin was dressed like he wanted it?

dubc47834
11-06-2013, 07:18 PM
In other words, Martin was dressed like he wanted it?

No...what Im saying is Martin should never have let it get this far in the first place. Something should have been said a long time ago if he had these feelings.

dubc47834
11-06-2013, 07:19 PM
Sorry, incorrect.

How so? If the info out there right now, that's my opinion. Care to explain yours, or just gonna say I'm wrong?

The Operator
11-06-2013, 08:41 PM
There's never any shortage of people willing to blame the victim.

Yachtzee
11-06-2013, 08:53 PM
No...what Im saying is Martin should never have let it get this far in the first place. Something should have been said a long time ago if he had these feelings.

And it would change things how? The Dolphins' players have pretty much said who they would have backed if Martin had spoken up sooner. Martin has been painted as soft, educated Stanford guy, weird, and apparently he's now not as "black" as Incognito. They might as well just call him an "Uncle Tom," because a lot of what they're saying seems like code.

With every new thing they say, to me it's clear that there is no real leadership in the Dolphins' locker room, at least any that would have stepped up and suppprted Martin. His situation with regard to his teammates was untenable.

Hillsdale87
11-06-2013, 09:03 PM
There's never any shortage of people willing to blame the victim.

Dolphin players are angry at Martin because he was showing those voicemails to everybody in the locker room and laughing about how funny they were. I don't think that kind of language should be used, even in a joking context, but it seems like Martin was fine with it originally and is now using it to fit his narrative. It is certainly not fair to say that the Dolphins allowed the locker room to get out of control when the alleged victim did not complain and actually laughed at his treatment. Other players are talking about how Incognito stood up for Martin over and over again, even in fights during practice. Tannehill said that he thought Martin and Incognito were best friends. This story just doesn't make sense.

Incognito probably deserves plenty of blame for this, but Martin never seemed to give any indication that there was a problem. For that, I think Martin deserves some of the blame. As it stands now, it seems like nobody realized that Martin was having any kind of problems, and then one day he just left.

More will certainly come out over the next few days/weeks, but it is certainly not as black and white as it appeared when the voicemails were released on Monday.

MWM
11-06-2013, 09:06 PM
Some people just aren't wired for that kind of conflict. That doesn't make them weak. It's just part of their nature and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. A person should never be put in a situation where he feels like he has to stand up to a guy as brazen as Incognito.

Our culture has so many of these widely help beliefs about how people should be. A man should stand up and act like a man. It's pathetic that we're in the time we're in and we still hear this nonsense coming from adults.

Redsfaithful
11-06-2013, 09:59 PM
I can't believe the Bengals lost to such a trainwreck of a team.

kaldaniels
11-07-2013, 12:57 AM
Stepping back from the actual story here, it's kinda fascinating watching the media zig and zag on this story. Today was a pro-Incognito day overall.

Don't be offended by this just sharing my inside thoughts with nothing to base them on...but I worry that this is going to be the way the first gay NFL player comes out.

19braves77
11-07-2013, 02:43 AM
So what we are suppose to take from this story is that white players can use the N word in the NFL if black players think it's okay ? I wonder what Jesse Jackson thinks about this.....

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 07:56 AM
If the black players he is directing the "ni***rs" at don't care, why should anyone else?

Chip R
11-07-2013, 08:58 AM
Here's an insider's view from a former lineman who played for the Dolphins last year.

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/

Sea Ray
11-07-2013, 08:59 AM
I can't believe the Bengals lost to such a trainwreck of a team.

They've wrecked a lot more since we played them a week ago. I'd love to play them this week

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 09:30 AM
This story gets more and more fascinating.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/2748/pro-incognito-fins-leave-no-room-for-martin

Stray
11-07-2013, 09:39 AM
I'm not sure what to believe on this story. If Martin was bullied like he said he was, for a long period of time, and it got so bad that he ended up in a hospital, why are there photos of the two hanging out and so many people saying they were friends? Heck, one of their receivers said Martin was playing the voicemail to teammates and laughing about it.

There's obviously more to the story. Something had to happen recently that ruined whatever relationship Martin and Incognito had.

But yeah, I'll just wait a few more days to make up my mind since this story continues to get more strange.

Newport Red
11-07-2013, 09:42 AM
Here's an insider's view from a former lineman who played for the Dolphins last year.

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/

He paid $9600.00 as a seventh round pick for a dinner for the veterans. No wonder why 78% of football players are bankrupt 3 rears after retirement.

Sea Ray
11-07-2013, 09:50 AM
He paid $9600.00 as a seventh round pick for a dinner for the veterans. No wonder why 78% of football players are bankrupt 3 rears after retirement.

I've read some ridiculous figures thrown around and really, how does someone spend that kind of money on a dinner? Let's say it's 20 guys and they pig out at Jeff Ruby's with plenty of drinks. I still don't see how you spend $10K. These rookies ought to just say no although I understand I'm not in the clubhouse like they are.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 09:53 AM
I've read some ridiculous figures thrown around and really, how does someone spend that kind of money on a dinner? Let's say it's 20 guys and they pig out at Jeff Ruby's with plenty of drinks. I still don't see how you spend $10K. These rookies ought to just say no although I understand I'm not in the clubhouse like they are.

$500 bottles of wine and champagne. And lots of them.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 10:05 AM
If the black players he is directing the "ni***rs" at don't care, why should anyone else?

Marcellus Wiley put it best on Sportsnation last night. Just because one player (Pouncey) is okay with a white player calling him the n word doesn't mean all players have to be okay with it.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 10:06 AM
$500 bottles of wine and champagne. And lots of them.

I heard some players were ordering $1000 bottles of wine to take home with them.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 10:11 AM
Marcellus Wiley put it best on Sportsnation last night. Just because one player (Pouncey) is okay with a white player calling him the n word doesn't mean all players have to be okay with it.

I agree that no one has to be okay with being called a ni**er. But if everyone he called a ni**er was okay with it, where is the problem?

Wonderful Monds
11-07-2013, 10:23 AM
I agree that no one has to be okay with being called a ni**er. But if everyone he called a ni**er was okay with it, where is the problem?

Everyone wasn't though, such as Jonathan Martin.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 10:26 AM
Everyone wasn't though, such as Jonathan Martin.

OK. Doesn't really change the point.

There's plenty of suggestion that Martin never indicated to anyone that it was a problem prior to last week, though.

traderumor
11-07-2013, 10:29 AM
I agree that no one has to be okay with being called a ni**er. But if everyone he called a ni**er was okay with it, where is the problem?If its in the workplace and said publicly, its unprofessional and grounds for termination and potentially a violation of the civil rights of others, just like any other ethnic or racial slur. If its private conversations, then I agree with you.

Maybe they can get Mr. Brown to come in and do some senstitivity training.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 10:34 AM
If its in the workplace and said publicly, its unprofessional and grounds for termination and potentially a violation of the civil rights of others, just like any other ethnic or racial slur.

In my workplace? Of course. In Incognito's workplace? I really don't know.

This is honestly a really complex story. I see that the NFLPA wants to get the agents of the two players together to quash it, because they realize both players's careers are getting hurt badly here. That's the smartest move I've seen from any side yet.

Hillsdale87
11-07-2013, 10:34 AM
There's plenty of suggestion that Martin never indicated to anyone that it was a problem prior to last week, though.

This, I think, is the biggest issue. If Martin felt like he was being bullied, he needed to tell somebody. It seems like the treatment Martin received was no different than the treatment that hundreds of other players receive every year, so there was no reason for the Dolphins to think that anything was wrong.

Hillsdale87
11-07-2013, 10:40 AM
Everyone wasn't though, such as Jonathan Martin.

He was laughing about it to the team. He seemed fine with it until he cracked. After Martin walked out on that Monday morning, Incognito reached out to him to see if he had caused it, and Martin said no. Now Martin is saying that Incognito did drive him away, and maybe he just didn't want to tell Incognito that. However, with Incognito reaching out to check on Martin, it seems like he would have been willing to alter his treatment toward Martin if he had approached Incognito about it. Instead, he seemed to blindside the whole team

19braves77
11-07-2013, 10:42 AM
Interesting to see how nervous the NBA is right now. White players have hinted in the past it's a very racist league.

I am not going to pretend I know what it's like to be black but for some reason I want the black population to be upset about this and there not. There shouldn't be any wiggle room on stuff like this or a double standard.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 10:46 AM
I agree that no one has to be okay with being called a ni**er. But if everyone he called a ni**er was okay with it, where is the problem?

Obviously one person wasn't okay with it. Wiley broke down the issues quite well. The Dolphins players singled out Martin because he was different. He was a Stanford educated player whose parents both went to Harvard, he was shy and quiet in the locker room. He wasn't viewed as one of the guys. Wiley said he had similar issues being an Ivy Leaguer coming into the NFL, but didn't get it nearly as bad because he had street cred having grown up in Compton. But if you don't have the street cred, look out. Wiley talked about a number of other problems with the situation and basically said it was a breakdown in leadership in the Dolphins organization where the inmates are running the asylum. The staff and veterans on the team were either willfully ignorant or were complicit in the harassment.

I've heard a number of players now come out against Incognito and the Dolphins in general. They seem to feel while Incognito isn't solely to blame for the situation, Martin is not the oneto share the blame, but rather the veterans and coaching staff for creating a culture where players felt they could cross the line from good natured rookie hazing, which some say should have ended in training camp last year, to an ongoing pattern of abuse on a player in his second year. Considering the mental health issues and problems with concussions many players are dealing with, I think there's a call for the NFL to consider punishing this in a similar way to how the Saints were dealt with in the Bounty scandal.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 10:50 AM
Obviously one person wasn't okay with it.

Apparently. But still does not change the point.

Chip R
11-07-2013, 10:50 AM
I heard some players were ordering $1000 bottles of wine to take home with them.

That's not surprising. In a situation like that guys take advantage. It reminds me somewhat of an episode of The Sopranos where Christopher kept having to buy for everyone because he was the low man on the totem pole. Plus he and Paulie had been feuding over stupid stuff and one night Paulie took advantage by buying Champagne for 3 girls at another table. A lot of it is just breaking balls and what comes around goes around. Eventually the low man - or rookie - is going to have some kid buying for him.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 10:54 AM
Wiley broke down the issues quite well. The Dolphins players singled out Martin because he was different. He was a Stanford educated player whose parents both went to Harvard, he was shy and quiet in the locker room. He wasn't viewed as one of the guys. Wiley said he had similar issues being an Ivy Leaguer coming into the NFL, but didn't get it nearly as bad because he had street cred having grown up in Compton. But if you don't have the street cred, look out. Wiley talked about a number of other problems with the situation and basically said it was a breakdown in leadership in the Dolphins organization where the inmates are running the asylum. The staff and veterans on the team were either willfully ignorant or were complicit in the harassment.


Was Wiley there/covering the Dolphins? I really don't know, but his assessment does not jive with that of a lot of people who WERE there. Based on what I'm reading today, I think Wiley's over-simplifying the situation.

Chip R
11-07-2013, 10:57 AM
This, I think, is the biggest issue. If Martin felt like he was being bullied, he needed to tell somebody. It seems like the treatment Martin received was no different than the treatment that hundreds of other players receive every year, so there was no reason for the Dolphins to think that anything was wrong.

His agent talked to the Dolphins GM about it and Ireland told the agent tell Martin to confront Incognito physically.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 10:59 AM
He was laughing about it to the team. He seemed fine with it until he cracked. After Martin walked out on that Monday morning, Incognito reached out to him to see if he had caused it, and Martin said no. Now Martin is saying that Incognito did drive him away, and maybe he just didn't want to tell Incognito that. However, with Incognito reaching out to check on Martin, it seems like he would have been willing to alter his treatment toward Martin if he had approached Incognito about it. Instead, he seemed to blindside the whole team

In the last few days, I've heard a number of current and former players say that it's difficult to take anything the Dolphins players say at face value right now because the players are in CYA mode. That along with contradictory statements some of them have made (at first somewhat admitting to having seen stuff but blaming Martin for being soft but then saying that they didn't see anything and they thought these guys were best buds) is setting off a lot of BS detectors. Seriously, if I were an attorney advising Dolphins' players, I'd be telling them to say nothing at all and let the NFL handle the investigation, because the more they talk, the worse they make it for Incognito, Martin, and the Dolphins organization. Right now it's like a bus heading for a cliff and everyone seems to be pushing on the gas pedal.

Caveat Emperor
11-07-2013, 11:16 AM
In my workplace? Of course. In Incognito's workplace? I really don't know.

This is honestly a really complex story. I see that the NFLPA wants to get the agents of the two players together to quash it, because they realize both players's careers are getting hurt badly here. That's the smartest move I've seen from any side yet.

It's not a complex story once you realize that an NFL Locker Room is subject to the EXACT SAME RULES as your workplace.

You can think what you will about workplace discrimination laws, anti-harassment laws -- you can think we've become an overly PC society and that these laws are an annoyance -- but they exist and there aren't special exemptions to them for places of business that just happen to be bursting at the seams with meatheads and jocks.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 11:19 AM
The laws apply, but what constitutes a hostile workplace is certainly going to be judged differently in an NFL lockerroom than in a quiet corporate cubicle farm.

And this story is complex well beyond any legal question. That's probably the least interesting part.

Caveat Emperor
11-07-2013, 11:20 AM
The other thing to remember about all these statements coming out of the Dolphins locker room is this:

Everyone involved is thinking about their careers.

Public support for Icognito? Saying that it should have been handled "in house" or the like? What else would you expect of guys who will, in the future, be in different locker rooms or working for different GMs and Coaches? Guys in the Dolphins locker room don't want reputations as snitches, leaks, or guys who are disloyal to their superiors / teammates. They don't want reputations as being thin-skinned, or as a guy who you can't trust to bring in because they'll flip on you the minute a camera is in their face or the situation gets hot.

Take everything being said with a pound and a half of salt.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 11:21 AM
Was Wiley there/covering the Dolphins? I really don't know, but his assessment does not jive with that of a lot of people who WERE there. Based on what I'm reading today, I think Wiley's over-simplifying the situation.

Do you really think you can trust anyone associated with the Dolphins' organization right now? Have you ever been a part of group of young men that was involved in a scandal? Now that some of the team's key players have voice support for Incognito, do you think any Dolphin player who might have a different view is going to stick their neck out and risk getting ostracized like Martin has been?

I was a member of a fraternity back in the late '80s-early '90s when a lot of hazing scandals were occurring and the Dolphins players are exhibiting the classic behavior of fraternities from that era. You get a few mouthpieces for the organization trashing the victim and claiming everything was just for fun and the victim just overreacted. The victim never showed any signs of not wanting to participate and was laughing about it beforehand. Meanwhile, inside the frat house, pressure whether overt or subliminal, is put on anyone who might view things differently to keep quiet. Anyone seen talking to outsiders about the issue are immediately under suspicion. The number one rule that supercedes any notion of law and justice is, don't talk against the brotherhood or you will be out.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 11:24 AM
Do you really think you can trust anyone associated with the Dolphins' organization right now?

I don't think you can take anything ANYONE is saying at face value. But they are the ones who were there.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 11:32 AM
I don't think you can take anything ANYONE is saying at face value. But they are the ones who were there.

I trust hard evidence, and right now there's hard evidence that Martin was being harassed and that Incognito went way over the line.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 11:33 AM
I trust hard evidence, and right now there's hard evidence that Martin was being harassed and that Incognito went way over the line.

Is there anything beyond the partial voicemails?

wolfboy
11-07-2013, 11:49 AM
Apparently. But still does not change the point.

I hate to be a stickler here, but it was your entire point:


I agree that no one has to be okay with being called a ni**er. But if everyone he called a ni**er was okay with it, where is the problem?

Chip R
11-07-2013, 11:58 AM
Is there anything beyond the partial voicemails?

If those voicemails hadn't come out or if Incognito hadn't left them at all in the first place, things would look a lot different.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 11:59 AM
That's not surprising. In a situation like that guys take advantage. It reminds me somewhat of an episode of The Sopranos where Christopher kept having to buy for everyone because he was the low man on the totem pole. Plus he and Paulie had been feuding over stupid stuff and one night Paulie took advantage by buying Champagne for 3 girls at another table. A lot of it is just breaking balls and what comes around goes around. Eventually the low man - or rookie - is going to have some kid buying for him.

It doesn't justify it though. I was a member of a fraternity when a number of hazing scandals went down at our school and at some nearby universities. In one instance, our school's hockey team was suspended for a year and later disbanded for duct-taping a freshman and forcing him to drink until he ended up in the hospital. In another, a chapter of my fraternity at a nearby school, one we had partied with multiple times, was deactivated for spanking pledges, forcing them to act like dogs to the point of eating dog food during initation week, and urinating on them. Our university and our national fraternity instituted zero tolerance policies. Some of our older members and alumni were upset by this because they felt that everyone should go through hell during initiation because they had to. Although we adapted and changed our own ways, we still had old guys coming around who would start giving pledges trouble, to the point where one alumnus was told not to come back. In my time with the fraternity, I've heard horror stories about how pledges were treated in the '70s and '80s to the point where I'm amazed no one died. And they would talk about how things would escalate with each new pledge class, with the newer brothers trying to outdo the older ones in how they tormented pledges. Eventually you have to break the cycle and put a stop to it.

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 12:07 PM
I hate to be a stickler here, but it was your entire point:

No, it wasn't. My point was that if a black guy doesn't have a problem with a white guy calling him a "ni**er", then no one else should have a problem with it, either. I didn't say Martin was okay with it. I have no idea.

Chip R
11-07-2013, 12:16 PM
It doesn't justify it though.

No, it doesn't but that's how it is. Like I said before, without the voice mail, there would be a great deal more support for Incognito than there is now. I'm not saying that the racist thing made a mountain out of a molehill but it did make it more of an issue if it had been just Martin having to pick up tabs at restaurants or contributing money for a trip to Vegas he didn't go on. The voicemail is why the mainstream media is on this issue like a tick on a dog. Otherwise it would have been confined to ESPN and sports talk radio for a few days then they would have moved on.

MWM
11-07-2013, 01:20 PM
There is a profound lack of understanding of bullying on this thread.

Dom Heffner
11-07-2013, 01:30 PM
There is a profound lack of understanding of bullying on this thread.

Oh you mean you couldn't go into your place of employment and legally have one of your newer employees pay for your Vegas trip?

You couldn't call up some female employee and call her a half breed on her personal phone? Punch her?

Christ- the lunacy of people....

"This is the way it is..."

Well the way it is is illegal- sorry you can't bully people for their paychecks because they are new.

I don't care if Allen Page did it. Or Ahmad Rashad. or Terry Bradshaw.

All this talk about a "fraternity that you earn membership into..."

Baloney and you all know it.

If Richie Incognito wants to go to Vegas Richie Incognito can pay for it himself.

Just because you play in a violent sport doesn't mean you get to be violent off the field.

Anyone who defends this crap needs their head examined....

Boston Red
11-07-2013, 01:42 PM
Truth is rather elusive in this story, but the current version is that Martin agreed to go on the trip, and each guy was putting in 15 large. Martin backed out at the last minute but paid his portion (as he should have IF THIS VERSION OF THE STORY TURNS OUT TO BE TRUE).

Dom Heffner
11-07-2013, 01:53 PM
Truth is rather elusive in this story, but the current version is that Martin agreed to go on the trip, and each guy was putting in 15 large. Martin backed out at the last minute but paid his portion (as he should have IF THIS VERSION OF THE STORY TURNS OUT TO BE TRUE).

It could be, BR.

But there are folks defending the version as leaked out.

Time will tell- you are correct in that there is more to any story....

But even if what Martin is saying isn't true, there are people still defending the fraternity nonsense....

redhawkfish
11-07-2013, 02:49 PM
It could be, BR.

But there are folks defending the version as leaked out.

Time will tell- you are correct in that there is more to any story....

But even if what Martin is saying isn't true, there are people still defending the fraternity nonsense....

I have never understood the mentality of treating another human being like garbage to build them up or to let them in your cutesy little boy's club!

Chip R
11-07-2013, 04:13 PM
I have never understood the mentality of treating another human being like garbage to build them up or to let them in your cutesy little boy's club!

Is that something that was learned from the military? No offense to anyone who has served but I believe that is exactly what the military does to recruits. They verbally abuse recruits - cadets and midshipmen in the service academies - and then they build them up into a finished product. I'm sure when team sports started, coaches drew to their military service to figure out how to build a team. The hazing of first year players was also probably drawn from players who were in fraternities.

Rojo
11-07-2013, 05:04 PM
There's a difference between a war and football game. But watch an NFL Film and you wouldn't know that. "The frozen tundrea of Lambeau Field" might as well be the outskirts of Stalingrad if you went by atmospherics.

The NFL and its players need to ease up. It's a game. You want something meaningful go fight Assad or something.

paintmered
11-07-2013, 05:21 PM
Is that something that was learned from the military? No offense to anyone who has served but I believe that is exactly what the military does to recruits. They verbally abuse recruits - cadets and midshipmen in the service academies - and then they build them up into a finished product. I'm sure when team sports started, coaches drew to their military service to figure out how to build a team. The hazing of first year players was also probably drawn from players who were in fraternities.

And when these sorts of allegations arise in the military, 4-star generals often have their careers abruptly ended.

I'm waiting for the first comparison of locker room behavior to Tailhook. It took an event such as that to institute cultural change in the military, but it did. The supportive outcry from inside the fraternity is eerily similar.

Regardless of whose story is right or wrong, this is an opportunity to examine the culture and if necessary, change it.

dubc47834
11-07-2013, 05:46 PM
It could be, BR.

But there are folks defending the version as leaked out.

Time will tell- you are correct in that there is more to any story....

But even if what Martin is saying isn't true, there are people still defending the fraternity nonsense....

Yes...I am defending the fraternity nonsense. If it comes out that what Martin is saying is BS then I see very little wrong with most of this. If Martin was treated the exact same as every other rookie last year, what is the problem...nothing to me. It's a right of passage, there are many things in this world that have similar things that go on for younger/newer guys to the team. These guys go thru hell and back. What does it really accomplish, not much probably, but if it makes those members of that team feel like more of a team, so be it. I'm in the military and there are all kinds of hazing/rights of passage. It's a team building experience.

Also, if Martin had a problem, he should have stood up and said something. If no one knows there is a problem, how can it be fixed. If he couldn't stand up for himself and say something, or stand up and confront Incognito, the how could he honestly expect to rectify this issue. I'm not saying that either Martin or Incognito is right/wrong, both have things they could have done better. There is still way too much of the story that is untold for me to say who is right or wrong in my opinion. I know I will get blasted for this opinion, but I got thick skin!!!

dubc47834
11-07-2013, 05:52 PM
Is that something that was learned from the military? No offense to anyone who has served but I believe that is exactly what the military does to recruits. They verbally abuse recruits - cadets and midshipmen in the service academies - and then they build them up into a finished product. I'm sure when team sports started, coaches drew to their military service to figure out how to build a team. The hazing of first year players was also probably drawn from players who were in fraternities.

Have you ever been to a boot camp? Its not as bad as people make it out to be. If you can stand someone in your face screaming and yelling, what are you going to do when bullets and bombs start flying around you. Has a drill sgt taken things too far, sure, but it is a rarity. They aren't allowed to get in your face and get personal or call you a piece of crap, its not verbal abuse like you state. The military has actually gotten pretty soft over the last few decades.

Rojo
11-07-2013, 05:54 PM
I'm in the military and there are all kinds of hazing/rights of passage. It's a team building experience.

If by "team" you mean a group of people who are exactly alike, then yes, it is teambuilding.

JaxRed
11-07-2013, 06:00 PM
Obviously Rojo has never been in the miltary

dubc47834
11-07-2013, 06:01 PM
If by "team" you mean a group of people who are exactly alike, then yes, it is teambuilding.

The military is not a group of people who are exactly alike. It is one of the most culturally diverse teams in the world.

dubc47834
11-07-2013, 06:02 PM
Obviously Rojo has never been in the miltary

Exactly, we have our problems, but generally race is not one of them!

Rojo
11-07-2013, 06:58 PM
Exactly, we have our problems, but generally race is not one of them!

I didn't mention race.

Despite Ingonito's slurs, I think a lot of this might be about class and personality. A whole bunch of Martin's kin are Harvard Alum. Is Martin too soft on the playing field? I don't follow football closely enough to know. But the "softness" might be because he was seen reading a book or something. If he can't do his job, cut him. But I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to hang in Vegas with a bunch of meatheads.

I understand the military's a different animal, maybe firefighting and cops too. But have you ever been in a work environment where doing your job well wasn't enough, where you had to become part of a team and were expected to mesh into a social Borg? Where everyone has to be "on the same page"? It's a recipe for mediocrity.

dubc47834
11-07-2013, 07:17 PM
I didn't mention race.

Despite Ingonito's slurs, I think a lot of this might be about class and personality. A whole bunch of Martin's kin are Harvard Alum. Is Martin too soft on the playing field? I don't follow football closely enough to know. But the "softness" might be because he was seen reading a book or something. If he can't do his job, cut him. But I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to hang in Vegas with a bunch of meatheads.

I understand the military's a different animal, maybe firefighting and cops too. But have you ever been in a work environment where doing your job well wasn't enough, where you had to become part of a team and were expected to mesh into a social Borg? Where everyone has to be "on the same page"? It's a recipe for mediocrity.

The military is pretty much the only job I have ever had, so I wouldn't know how the rest of the work force generally is. I would hope that in most professions doing your job well would be good enough, but I just don't see that actually being the case as often as it should be.

Chip R
11-07-2013, 07:42 PM
Have you ever been to a boot camp? Its not as bad as people make it out to be. If you can stand someone in your face screaming and yelling, what are you going to do when bullets and bombs start flying around you. Has a drill sgt taken things too far, sure, but it is a rarity. They aren't allowed to get in your face and get personal or call you a piece of crap, its not verbal abuse like you state. The military has actually gotten pretty soft over the last few decades.

No judgements here and abuse may be too strong of a word. However I'm talking about how it was decades ago.

Think of when team sports began back in the 19th century. Football basically began in the universities and colleges. There weren't necessarily coaches then but one or two players who were in charge - captains, if you will. When that evolved into where you had coaches running things; they had to figure out a way to get the young men in their charge to be a team. You have to believe that most of these coaches served in the military so they used that example to organize their players. If that involved yelling and screaming, so be it.

dabvu2498
11-07-2013, 07:46 PM
http://m.local10.com/sports/aventura-police-dolphins-richie-incognito-harassed-golf-volunteer/-/16717762/22858256/-/ht2axez/-/index.html

This guy is pretty much just not a nice guy.

dubc47834
11-07-2013, 07:50 PM
No judgements here and abuse may be too strong of a word. However I'm talking about how it was decades ago.

Think of when team sports began back in the 19th century. Football basically began in the universities and colleges. There weren't necessarily coaches then but one or two players who were in charge - captains, if you will. When that evolved into where you had coaches running things; they had to figure out a way to get the young men in their charge to be a team. You have to believe that most of these coaches served in the military so they used that example to organize their players. If that involved yelling and screaming, so be it.

I see what you are saying and I don't disagree at all. There is a difference between hazing and bullying. I know all the info is not out yet, but the more I hear about this the more Im leaning toward this is hazing.

Roy Tucker
11-07-2013, 08:27 PM
The multi-billion dollar NFL ship is springing leaks.

I don't doubt this Dolphin thing is not that far out of the ordinary of other NFL locker rooms. These positions are ultra-competitive, most careers are brutally short, and its an all alpha dog Darwinian world.

Doesn't make it right, but I think that's how it is. I'd think the NFL bigwigs are besides themselves and freaking out over trying to keep that ship from sinking and spin this somehow.

Joseph
11-07-2013, 08:31 PM
I did the fraternity thing. I hated the hazing from time to time. I had other guys junk waved in my face once. I had to address every member of the fraternity when I walked into a room loudly and by name and then got yelled at for interrupting a conversation. I was 21 when I pledged so I bought beer. A LOT of beer.

But I CHOSE to do it.

Looking back, I love the guys I joined with. We all went through that stuff together. It DID make us bond. We bonded in stress and dislike of the 'actives'. And when it was all said and done, we were welcomed into the ranks and all had a bond because we'd all been through it.

Yes we'd done it to one another and continued to do it to classes after us, but it was just part of things. All things I will never forget.

Now when one of us have a kid, get married, or have a sorrow, we have a bond.

Not the same as Martin, but there is a difference in hazing and bullying. I don't want there to be confusion between the two.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 10:27 PM
http://m.local10.com/sports/aventura-police-dolphins-richie-incognito-harassed-golf-volunteer/-/16717762/22858256/-/ht2axez/-/index.html

This guy is pretty much just not a nice guy.

He's lucky he didn't get charged with sexual imposition.

Wonderful Monds
11-07-2013, 10:42 PM
The multi-billion dollar NFL ship is springing leaks.

I don't doubt this Dolphin thing is not that far out of the ordinary of other NFL locker rooms. These positions are ultra-competitive, most careers are brutally short, and its an all alpha dog Darwinian world.

Doesn't make it right, but I think that's how it is. I'd think the NFL bigwigs are besides themselves and freaking out over trying to keep that ship from sinking and spin this somehow.

Ha, that's funny. That SHOULD be the case, but half the country agrees that Martin is a wuss that needs to suck it up. The only thing more depressing than this story is the reaction to it.

The NFL is pretty much invincible.

Yachtzee
11-07-2013, 10:51 PM
I did the fraternity thing. I hated the hazing from time to time. I had other guys junk waved in my face once. I had to address every member of the fraternity when I walked into a room loudly and by name and then got yelled at for interrupting a conversation. I was 21 when I pledged so I bought beer. A LOT of beer.

But I CHOSE to do it.

Looking back, I love the guys I joined with. We all went through that stuff together. It DID make us bond. We bonded in stress and dislike of the 'actives'. And when it was all said and done, we were welcomed into the ranks and all had a bond because we'd all been through it.

Yes we'd done it to one another and continued to do it to classes after us, but it was just part of things. All things I will never forget.

Now when one of us have a kid, get married, or have a sorrow, we have a bond.

Not the same as Martin, but there is a difference in hazing and bullying. I don't want there to be confusion between the two.

I think the differences here are: 1) a fraternity is a purely voluntary organization, whereas a spot on an NFL team is one of the most difficult jobs to get and your career is typically rather short. So while it may be easy to walk away from a fraternity if you don't like how they treat you, walking away from an NFL career is a much more difficult and financially detrimental choice. 2) The hazing ends once you make it through the pledge period. This is Martin's second season and he's still dealing with this garbage.

Caveat Emperor
11-07-2013, 11:11 PM
The league is fighting a war right now for the hearts and minds of parents around the country when it comes to letting their sons play the game. You think they want to deal with yet ANOTHER reason for moms and dads to keep their kids off football teams -- fear of bullying from other kids in locker room environments?

They're going to come down on this like a sack of dynamite and you can bet that the punishments involved will look similar to the Saints bounty situation.

Redsfaithful
11-07-2013, 11:22 PM
The military is a different beast, being life and death at times.

I'm not buying that NFL players need military strength bonds to do their jobs. And being inclusive/nice/relaxed seems to me like a better way to inspire success in football, which is a very brutal, nasty career. These guys have to carry huge amounts of stress relating to Sundays and I can't imagine adding stress through the week in prep is helpful.

Yachtzee
11-08-2013, 12:04 AM
The military is a different beast, being life and death at times.

I'm not buying that NFL players need military strength bonds to do their jobs. And being inclusive/nice/relaxed seems to me like a better way to inspire success in football, which is a very brutal, nasty career. These guys have to carry huge amounts of stress relating to Sundays and I can't imagine adding stress through the week in prep is helpful.

The Seahawks have a meditation consultant. They seem to be doing okay.

You know, after 9/11 and the death of Pat Tillman, I thought we had gotten beyond this whole notion of equating football players with the military. Anyone remember when Kellen Winslow II was openly mocked for saying he was a soldier? These guys aren't soldiers. They're grown men playing a game for entertainment.

With all the issues the NFL is dealing with concerning concussions and mental health problems facing players, they really need to take a serious look at how teams are running their locker rooms before a tragedy happens. Remember this happened not too long ago and nobody seems to talk about it anymore.

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=8697360&src=desktop

dubc47834
11-08-2013, 06:42 AM
The Seahawks have a meditation consultant. They seem to be doing okay.

You know, after 9/11 and the death of Pat Tillman, I thought we had gotten beyond this whole notion of equating football players with the military. Anyone remember when Kellen Winslow II was openly mocked for saying he was a soldier? These guys aren't soldiers. They're grown men playing a game for entertainment.

With all the issues the NFL is dealing with concerning concussions and mental health problems facing players, they really need to take a serious look at how teams are running their locker rooms before a tragedy happens. Remember this happened not too long ago and nobody seems to talk about it anymore.

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=8697360&src=desktop

This game that you speak of is killing people after they retire.

RedTeamGo!
11-08-2013, 08:25 AM
This game that you speak of is killing people after they retire.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? I am not seeing the correlation between traumatic head injuries and a dbag calling a young player racial slurs and bullying him in to treating him to Vegas and dinner.

dubc47834
11-08-2013, 08:57 AM
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? I am not seeing the correlation between traumatic head injuries and a dbag calling a young player racial slurs and bullying him in to treating him to Vegas and dinner.

While these guys aren't Soldiers, they do rely on the man next to them, just like Soldiers. While no one that I can remember has died on the football field, these guys are killing themselves after football due to injuries. Plus there livelyhood isn't that great for many after football. I think you need to read up on this story more before you condem my post. Martin told the other players that he was going to go to Vegas, then at the last minute bailed...so yeah, he shoulda paid that 15 grand, just like everyone who went on the trip. Also, the racial slurs, while it isn't something that should be used, evidently it is something that goes on in many locker rooms. Is Incognito a good guy...NO. Am I saying that Martin shoulda kicked his ass, no, but he shoulda done something before it got this far. He is just as culpable as Incognito in all this.

Rojo
11-08-2013, 12:52 PM
Am I saying that Martin shoulda kicked his ass, no, but he shoulda done something before it got this far.

He did do something -- he left. If, instead of leaving, he'd beaten the crap out of Incognito, everyone would be talking about he should've just exited the situation.

MWM
11-08-2013, 02:56 PM
Not sure Incognito will continue to get people in his corner. The more we learn, the worse it looks for him. This is interesting:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9946248/richie-incognito-held-offensive-line-meetings-strip-club

dubc47834
11-08-2013, 04:57 PM
He did do something -- he left. If, instead of leaving, he'd beaten the crap out of Incognito, everyone would be talking about he should've just exited the situation.

Ok...say this is your kid and they are getting bullied at school. You wajt them to just leave and not tell anyone what is hoing on?

MWM
11-08-2013, 06:03 PM
Ok...say this is your kid and they are getting bullied at school. You wajt them to just leave and not tell anyone what is hoing on?

I have a son with Aspergers syndrome who has experienced bullying at school. The last thing I ever would want is for him to have a physical confrontation with anyone. I want him to come tell me about it, but it's really hard to do so because he fears the repercussions of "tattling". If the bully himself gets in trouble, then that could just make matters worse. It's an incredibly difficult thing to monitor and with my son I have to drag it out of him at times.

In an NFL locker room, I would imagine the fear of repercussions would be worse because the likelihood that whoever you would go tell would think you're just weak and/or is perfectly fine with the treatment. If it was bad, I could totally see why a guy like Martin would not feel like going and telling coaches would be an option.

Yachtzee
11-08-2013, 07:41 PM
I have a son with Aspergers syndrome who has experienced bullying at school. The last thing I ever would want is for him to have a physical confrontation with anyone. I want him to come tell me about it, but it's really hard to do so because he fears the repercussions of "tattling". If the bully himself gets in trouble, then that could just make matters worse. It's an incredibly difficult thing to monitor and with my son I have to drag it out of him at times.

In an NFL locker room, I would imagine the fear of repercussions would be worse because the likelihood that whoever you would go tell would think you're just weak and/or is perfectly fine with the treatment. If it was bad, I could totally see why a guy like Martin would not feel like going and telling coaches would be an option.

Who's Martin going to tell in house anyway? The player's leadership council? Incognito was on the leadership council. Philbin? He allegedly encouraged Incognito to get on Martin's case to toughen him up. The GM Ireland? Well Martin's agent allegedly went to Ireland and Ireland told him Martin needed to deal with it himself and punch Incognito in the face. Sounds to me like Martin was in a no win situation.

More information is coming out about Incognito that indicate that he has had issues since 2002 with Nebraska. He's been booted off 2 college teams and 2 pro teams for behavioral problems and was even sent to anger management counseling. Based on some of the things being said about him by former teammates who knew him before he joined the Dolphins and opponents don't paint a pretty picture. When you add some of his antics outside of football to the equation, he sounds like a borderline sociopath. It seems the reason he was able to stick with the Dolphins was because he finally found the team willing to accept and encourage his bad behavior.

Hoosier Red
11-08-2013, 10:24 PM
Someone refresh my memory, didn't the GM get in trouble a few years back for asking some wildly out of line questions in a draft interview? Glad to see the team is 100% class all the way through.

MWM
11-08-2013, 11:26 PM
The Dolphins do seem to be a mess of an organization right now. I hate seeing this because I'm a big fan of their owner.

MWM
11-08-2013, 11:32 PM
I think Incognito is just not very smart. I don't mean that as an insult, but more a statement of what's probably true. I think he's severely lacking in natural intelligence.

Redsfaithful
11-09-2013, 03:20 AM
Someone refresh my memory, didn't the GM get in trouble a few years back for asking some wildly out of line questions in a draft interview? Glad to see the team is 100% class all the way through.

Yeah, Jeff Ireland asked Dez Bryant if his mom was a prostitute. It's a clown organization.

Yachtzee
11-09-2013, 08:44 AM
I think Incognito is just not very smart. I don't mean that as an insult, but more a statement of what's probably true. I think he's severely lacking in natural intelligence.

Actually, one former teammate compared him to Eddie Haskell from Leave It To Beaver. He can really put on the charm with authority figures and make it seem like he's a model player, but will then push the boundaries to see what he can get away with when he feels they aren't looking. A bad recipe if you have an organization willing to condone or at least turn a blind eye to his behavior.

VottoFan54
11-09-2013, 05:13 PM
Yeah, Jeff Ireland asked Dez Bryant if his mom was a prostitute. It's a clown organization.

The story goes that Ireland asked Bryant what his dad did for a living, Bryant responded that his dad was a pimp. Later on, Bryant said his mom works for his dad. Based off of these two comments, Ireland asked if Bryant's mom was a prostitute. That doesn't necessarily make the question appropriate, but I think context is pretty important in this situation.

kpresidente
11-09-2013, 05:36 PM
He did do something -- he left. If, instead of leaving, he'd beaten the crap out of Incognito, everyone would be talking about he should've just exited the situation.

Are you serious? Exiting the situation is what you do at a bar when some drunk is trying to pick a fight with you. You exit that situation because it's not worth it, not because you're a coward like Martin is. You don't exit your career because you're getting a little rookie hazing. And "beat the crap out of Incognito"? This isn't even a fighting situation...at least not as it stands. When people say Martin should have stood up for himself, they mean stand up verbally, which there's no indication he ever did. Grown men know how to draw their lines in the sand. If you're getting hazed, you put up with some of it but you also have your boundaries and you let people know what they are. People like Jonathon Martin are insufferable. And the worst thing is host of griefers like yourself that want to rush to his rescue. That's exactly how he became the grown child that he is.

Of course liberals are jumping all over themselves to paint this as some kind of "bullying" issue, as if it has anything at all in common with what children do when they pick on other kids. That's a dominance/status thing carried out at a primitive level. Lower the other person to raise up yourself. This is more like hazing (and mild hazing at that) where the point is to break down the person's individual ego so you can then draw them into the team concept.

VottoFan54
11-09-2013, 05:43 PM
This isn't even a fighting situation...at least not as it stands. When people say Martin should have stood up for himself, they mean stand up verbally, which there's no indication he ever did. Grown men know how to draw their lines in the sand.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196378/report-dolphins-gm-jeff-ireland-suggested-martin-punch-incognito


Before Martin left the team on Oct. 28, Martin's agent, Rick Smith, called Ireland and let him know about the situation involving Incognito. Ireland's solution to the bullying problem? He told Smith that Martin should 'punch' Incognito, according to ProFootballTalk.com. If true, that means Ireland basically suggested that one player on his team should assault another player on his team.

You say that this isn't a fighting situation, but apparently the Dolphins GM thinks otherwise. He tried to deal with the problem by explaining the situation to the GM, so he did stand up for himself verbally. The GM did nothing about it.

kpresidente
11-09-2013, 05:55 PM
I understand the military's a different animal, maybe firefighting and cops too. But have you ever been in a work environment where doing your job well wasn't enough, where you had to become part of a team and were expected to mesh into a social Borg? Where everyone has to be "on the same page"? It's a recipe for mediocrity.

So you can grasp the difference between the military and the NFL, but you can't grasp the difference between the NFL and your standard office environment complete with cubicles? Sure, it's a sport and people aren't shooting at you, but show me a paper pusher who comes home with broken legs, bruises all over their body, concussions, etc. Football is a tough physical game, you have to be tough to succeed at it, and so the culture has to breed that in the players and that's what it does. There's nothing wrong with any of this, these guys get paid a lot of money to do what they do. If you can't hack it, then leave, but don't leave telling the NFL that's it's way is wrong because you were to weak for the game.

And as far as your understanding of the team concept, yeah....it's supposed to be like the "borg", that's the point of a team. Many people acting as one. No individuals. That's exactly what leads to success (the borg dominated!). I'm not saying everybody should do the same thing everywhere....that's why there's 32 teams, each trying different ways of doing things to find what works best. But within that team? You need people to act as a unit.

kpresidente
11-09-2013, 06:04 PM
You say that this isn't a fighting situation, but apparently the Dolphins GM thinks otherwise. He tried to deal with the problem by explaining the situation to the GM, so he did stand up for himself verbally. The GM did nothing about it.

Of course he didn't do anything about it. He was probably pissed that he was being dragged into it by the drama queen. Saying to punch him is just bluster, although it's a way of giving him permission to punch him if it came to that. But mostly he's telling the tattle-tale to stand up for himself. Incognito never got physical, so I don't see any call for Martin to get physical. Of course you have to be ready to for it to get physical, but if he'd have stood up for himself I highly doubt it would have come to that because this isn't genuine hatred or anything, it's hazing.

kpresidente
11-09-2013, 06:11 PM
Ha, that's funny. That SHOULD be the case, but half the country agrees that Martin is a wuss that needs to suck it up. The only thing more depressing than this story is the reaction to it.

Your reaction is what's depressing. The absolute worship and glorification of weakness as if it was some kind of virtue is disgusting.

kpresidente
11-09-2013, 06:25 PM
Despite Ingonito's slurs, I think a lot of this might be about class and personality. A whole bunch of Martin's kin are Harvard Alum. Is Martin too soft on the playing field? I don't follow football closely enough to know. But the "softness" might be because he was seen reading a book or something. If he can't do his job, cut him. But I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to hang in Vegas with a bunch of meatheads.

OK, so turn the tables. Suppose there's some jock out there that wants a job in academia. Does he bring the locker-room culture into a lecture hall? Of course not! When in Rome!

And say this jock can't cut it as an academic. Do you think it would be right for him turn around and sue the school because of all the back-handed compliments/passive aggressiveness/indirect insults that intellectual type love so much?

Scratch that, suing them doesn't make the analogy, that would be the academics way. Does he go around roughing them all up? Or does he just accept that culture for what it is and leave it alone? That's what I say he should do. Just like Martin should have left it alone if he couldn't handle it.

dabvu2498
11-09-2013, 07:24 PM
If we can't have this discussion without getting personal, we can't have this discussion here.

Larkin Fan
11-09-2013, 07:29 PM
OK, so turn the tables. Suppose there's some jock out there that wants a job in academia. Does he bring the locker-room culture into a lecture hall? Of course not! When in Rome!

And say this jock can't cut it as an academic. Do you think it would be right for him turn around and sue the school because of all the back-handed compliments/passive aggressiveness/indirect insults that intellectual type love so much?

Scratch that, suing them doesn't make the analogy, that would be the academics way. Does he go around roughing them all up? Or does he just accept that culture for what it is and leave it alone? That's what I say he should do. Just like Martin should have left it alone if he couldn't handle it.

Since when did acting like a civilized human being become a "culture"?

Rojo
11-09-2013, 08:07 PM
Your reaction is what's depressing. The absolute worship and glorification of weakness as if it was some kind of virtue is disgusting.

...he exclaimed from the balcony.

MWM
11-09-2013, 08:13 PM
Man, I need to fix the flux capacitor and get back to the 21st century. I've definitely landed in the past somewhere.

dubc47834
11-09-2013, 09:39 PM
Your reaction is what's depressing. The absolute worship and glorification of weakness as if it was some kind of virtue is disgusting.

Kinda personal dont ya think...and not what this board is about!!!

The Operator
11-10-2013, 05:03 AM
Are you serious? Exiting the situation is what you do at a bar when some drunk is trying to pick a fight with you. You exit that situation because it's not worth it, not because you're a coward like Martin is. You don't exit your career because you're getting a little rookie hazing. And "beat the crap out of Incognito"? This isn't even a fighting situation...at least not as it stands. When people say Martin should have stood up for himself, they mean stand up verbally, which there's no indication he ever did. Actually, the only thing a verbal confrontation would've done was incite a shouting match. And I'm pretty sure a meat-head like Incognito would have no problem turning to violence when someone openly calls him on his BS.

That's what bullies do. They threaten and taunt you, and if you dare to question them - they assault you because 99% of the time they're too stupid to have any sort of intelligent verbal response.

You've clearly never been on the receiving end of bullying or known anyone who has.

jojo
11-10-2013, 10:29 AM
OK, so turn the tables. Suppose there's some jock out there that wants a job in academia. Does he bring the locker-room culture into a lecture hall? Of course not! When in Rome!

And say this jock can't cut it as an academic. Do you think it would be right for him turn around and sue the school because of all the back-handed compliments/passive aggressiveness/indirect insults that intellectual type love so much?

Scratch that, suing them doesn't make the analogy, that would be the academics way. Does he go around roughing them all up? Or does he just accept that culture for what it is and leave it alone? That's what I say he should do. Just like Martin should have left it alone if he couldn't handle it.

Martin is cutting it as a jock. The metaphor doesn't work.

Slyder
11-10-2013, 11:04 AM
Actually, the only thing a verbal confrontation would've done was incite a shouting match. And I'm pretty sure a meat-head like Incognito would have no problem turning to violence when someone openly calls him on his BS.

That's what bullies do. They threaten and taunt you, and if you dare to question them - they assault you because 99% of the time they're too stupid to have any sort of intelligent verbal response.

You've clearly never been on the receiving end of bullying or known anyone who has.

+1

Yachtzee
11-10-2013, 11:08 AM
http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=9955766

Somehow I get the feeling that if Incognito were a Bengal, these would have been huge news stories when they happened and Incognito would have been disciplined by the league.

Razor Shines
11-10-2013, 01:05 PM
This is weird. They just reported that there's texts and VMs like the ones Incognito sent to Martin FROM Martin to Incognito. A specific one they read from Martin: "I'll murder your entire family."

I have friends who I text terrible things to and from whom get terrible things texted back to me, it's kind of just trying to top the other person saying how much we hate each other just to make the other laugh, obviously we actually care very much about each other. I only do that with my closest friends. If any of those friends ever decided they wanted to embarrass me they could show them to people and it would look really bad.

I don't know if that's what happened here. Even if that is the case it doesn't change the fact that Incognito is garbage. Maybe Martin was just playing along with it because that was easier than having to face more bullying from Incognito and the rest of the team. And I bullying rookies into paying for vacations and exorbitant dinners is garbage.

I also consider the possibility that Martin was struggling with the stress of being in the NFL and couldn't take it any more. Rather than saying that perhaps it was easier just to say it was Incognito and he has all the proof he needs right on his phone. And even still if that's the case, I don't have much sympathy for Incognito.

dubc47834
11-10-2013, 05:12 PM
Also reports that Martin sent text to Incognito AFTER he left stating that he wasnt mad at them...just the culture of the NFL. Interesting!!!

The Operator
11-10-2013, 08:14 PM
Also reports that Martin sent text to Incognito AFTER he left stating that he wasnt mad at them...just the culture of the NFL. Interesting!!!Says Richie Incognito??

Wonderful Monds
11-10-2013, 09:56 PM
This is weird. They just reported that there's texts and VMs like the ones Incognito sent to Martin FROM Martin to Incognito. A specific one they read from Martin: "I'll murder your entire family."

I have friends who I text terrible things to and from whom get terrible things texted back to me, it's kind of just trying to top the other person saying how much we hate each other just to make the other laugh, obviously we actually care very much about each other. I only do that with my closest friends. If any of those friends ever decided they wanted to embarrass me they could show them to people and it would look really bad.

I don't know if that's what happened here. Even if that is the case it doesn't change the fact that Incognito is garbage. Maybe Martin was just playing along with it because that was easier than having to face more bullying from Incognito and the rest of the team. And I bullying rookies into paying for vacations and exorbitant dinners is garbage.

I also consider the possibility that Martin was struggling with the stress of being in the NFL and couldn't take it any more. Rather than saying that perhaps it was easier just to say it was Incognito and he has all the proof he needs right on his phone. And even still if that's the case, I don't have much sympathy for Incognito.

Turns out its not exactly how Incognito wants it sound
http://deadspin.com/the-threatening-text-that-martin-sent-to-incognito-wa-1461938725
It was just a silly meme.

Razor Shines
11-10-2013, 10:02 PM
Turns out its not exactly how Incognito wants it sound
http://deadspin.com/the-threatening-text-that-martin-sent-to-incognito-wa-1461938725
It was just a silly meme.

Ah, well that seems far more likely.

dubc47834
11-11-2013, 10:14 AM
Says Richie Incognito??

Jonathan Martin was bullied....says Johnathan Martin. That goes both ways:thumbup:

improbus
11-11-2013, 12:23 PM
This story is illustrates some of the more annoying aspects of the media, sports fans, and sports in general.
1) The rush to get the story out. The rush to get it out preceded having very many actual facts.
2) The lack of nuance. You either have to scream on one side or scream on the other.
3) The rush to judgment. Martin has been a wimp, hero, role model, chicken, etc... all over the span of a week.
4) The need for drama and narrative.

One last thing. Isn't the "treatment" Martin seems to have gotten/may have gotten/did get/didn't get the same treatment EVERY kicker gets everyday of their lives?

Yachtzee
11-11-2013, 04:33 PM
This story is illustrates some of the more annoying aspects of the media, sports fans, and sports in general.
1) The rush to get the story out. The rush to get it out preceded having very many actual facts.
2) The lack of nuance. You either have to scream on one side or scream on the other.
3) The rush to judgment. Martin has been a wimp, hero, role model, chicken, etc... all over the span of a week.
4) The need for drama and narrative.

One last thing. Isn't the "treatment" Martin seems to have gotten/may have gotten/did get/didn't get the same treatment EVERY kicker gets everyday of their lives?

I think kickers are largely ignored.

dubc47834
11-11-2013, 05:34 PM
Says Richie Incognito??

Says the last of over 1100 text messages between the 2....:beerme:

The Operator
11-11-2013, 09:57 PM
Jonathan Martin was bullied....says Johnathan Martin. That goes both ways:thumbup:Yea, except that one guy's a sociopath that got kicked off two different college teams and bounced around in the NFL because he kept drawing unsportsmanlike conduct penalties everywhere he went until he finally found a home with that joke of a team in Miami where they obviously put up with and/or encourage that garbage.

The other guy seems to be fairly sane and has a Stanford education (well, he went to Stanford - he'd also been accepted to Harvard, though they don't offer scholarships), and was raised by two Harvard alums.

Gee, I know which one I'd be more likely to believe.

The Operator
11-11-2013, 09:58 PM
Says the last of over 1100 text messages between the 2....:beerme:Did ya really need to reply to my same post twice?

Joseph
11-11-2013, 10:03 PM
I think, like most things, both sides as probably a bit guilty. Incognito appears to be a scum bag, but I do think Martin isn't just an innocent victim either. It's just my gut on how this whole story feels. I'm in no way defending Incognito by trying to blame the victim, so don't attack me as though I am.

There's a world of pro athletes that I can't completely understand and never will. All I can do is offer my opinions on the stories [and that's all 99% of it is, stories, not facts] and continue to read when I'm completely bored.

The Operator
11-11-2013, 10:09 PM
Cam Cleeland (who actually won a lawsuit against the Saints and six players when he was hit in the eye with a pillowcase full of coins during a "fun" hazing event that was "just part of that wacky NFL culture" back in 1998) on Rich Incognito:

http://deadspin.com/nfl-hazing-victim-incognito-was-a-scumbag-and-locke-1460764880/@Tom_Ley
"I'm not afraid to say that he was an immature, unrealistic scumbag," Cleeland said. "When it came down to it, he had no personality, he was a locker-room cancer, and he just wanted to fight everybody all the time. It was bizarre beyond belief."

Superdude
11-11-2013, 11:50 PM
I have friends who I text terrible things to and from whom get terrible things texted back to me, it's kind of just trying to top the other person saying how much we hate each other just to make the other laugh, obviously we actually care very much about each other. I only do that with my closest friends. If any of those friends ever decided they wanted to embarrass me they could show them to people and it would look really bad.

That was my first thought. There's a handful of people that could make me look like the worst person on the planet if they ever felt inclined. I can't wait to hear Martin's take on it.

dubc47834
11-12-2013, 07:59 AM
Cam Cleeland (who actually won a lawsuit against the Saints and six players when he was hit in the eye with a pillowcase full of coins during a "fun" hazing event that was "just part of that wacky NFL culture" back in 1998) on Rich Incognito:

http://deadspin.com/nfl-hazing-victim-incognito-was-a-scumbag-and-locke-1460764880/@Tom_Ley

Im not saying Incognito is a good guy or is innocent in all this. I'm just saying that Martin had options and it didn't have to get this far outa control. He had many options before just leaving the team, some good and some bad. Some may have been harded than others. If someone had been bullying you would you be sending them text AFTER you left the team? Then say that you didn't blame them, just the culture of the locker room? Like ESPN said last night, Martin never said it was Incognito specifically that was bullying him. The Miami Dolphins heard the voice mail and then suspended Incognito. Many players and coaches are going to take the fall on this, as should be. I like hte idea of having the counsel with big, trustable names like Tony Dungy and Don Shula trying to get to the bottom of this and coming up with good ideas to resolve the problems for the Dolphins. All I'm saying is let's not let Martin off the hook yet until the whole story comes out. Once it does, if Martin is blameless, I will eat crow...:thumbup:

Caveat Emperor
11-12-2013, 08:08 AM
I'm starting to wish some team would sign Tim Tebow, because I'm already getting annoyed at the level of coverage this story is getting now.

jojo
11-12-2013, 08:10 AM
Im not saying Incognito is a good guy or is innocent in all this. I'm just saying that Martin had options and it didn't have to get this far outa control. He had many options before just leaving the team, some good and some bad. Some may have been harded than others. If someone had been bullying you would you be sending them text AFTER you left the team? Then say that you didn't blame them, just the culture of the locker room? Like ESPN said last night, Martin never said it was Incognito specifically that was bullying him. The Miami Dolphins heard the voice mail and then suspended Incognito. Many players and coaches are going to take the fall on this, as should be. I like hte idea of having the counsel with big, trustable names like Tony Dungy and Don Shula trying to get to the bottom of this and coming up with good ideas to resolve the problems for the Dolphins. All I'm saying is let's not let Martin off the hook yet until the whole story comes out. Once it does, if Martin is blameless, I will eat crow...:thumbup:

I'm unwilling to believe anything Incognito claims without actually seeing time stamped texts that can be read.

dubc47834
11-12-2013, 08:53 AM
I'm unwilling to believe anything Incognito claims without actually seeing time stamped texts that can be read.

I don't know the details, but he had all 1100 or so text with him for the NFL Network interview and it was brought up last night by Chris Berman and Tom Jackson last nite on NFL Countdown. I would imagine the facts will start coming out late this week or early next week once Martin starts getting talked to by Dolphins and NFL brass. Should be interesting stuff. Like Caveat Emperor said, someone needs to sign Timmy Tebow already. This stuff is getting pretty old already!!!

RichRed
11-12-2013, 01:12 PM
I'm starting to wish some team would sign Tim Tebow, because I'm already getting annoyed at the level of coverage this story is getting now.

Please let it be the Dolphins.

Rojo
11-12-2013, 01:52 PM
I'm just saying that Martin had options and it didn't have to get this far outa control.

Why is it on Martin to not let things get "outa control"?

dubc47834
11-12-2013, 02:27 PM
Why is it on Martin to not let things get "outa control"?

Because he is the person that is being effected by this. If he had a problem with what is going on, then he needs to report to someone that he has a problem. There is ALWAYS SOMEONE that you can say something to. It may not be easy, but if you expect change then you need to step up. Obviously the rest of the players in that locker room either didn't know what was going on, or turned a blind eye to it. I know if I have issues with someone or something that is going on, I would step up if I felt that strong about it. Martin is not responsible for what happened, but he is responsible for not stepping up and saying SOMETHING!!!!

Yachtzee
11-12-2013, 02:58 PM
Because he is the person that is being effected by this. If he had a problem with what is going on, then he needs to report to someone that he has a problem. There is ALWAYS SOMEONE that you can say something to. It may not be easy, but if you expect change then you need to step up. Obviously the rest of the players in that locker room either didn't know what was going on, or turned a blind eye to it. I know if I have issues with someone or something that is going on, I would step up if I felt that strong about it. Martin is not responsible for what happened, but he is responsible for not stepping up and saying SOMETHING!!!!

I think it's already been established that Martin really had no one to go to within the organization. Incognito was on the players' leadership council, it appears Philbin was complicit by asking Incognito to "toughen" Martin up, and Ireland, when informed by Martin'sagagent, said Martin should punch Incognito (the football way of telling Martin and his agent to go pound salt). I read an article over the weekend where a number of NFL insiders said the responsibility lies mostly on Philbin and Ireland and that they will likely lose their jobs. It probably won't happen until the Dolphins are eliminated from playoff contention. Incognito will probably be back in the league after doing some suspension time. Martin is probably done with the Dolphins and may find difficulty finding a job in the future not because he's considered soft but because he's considered a snitch in players' circles and other teams won't want to deal with the issues that brings to the locker room. Meanwhile, the NFL will probably come out with an antihazing policy that won't amount to much because players being hazed won't report for fear of being "Martined." I have no confidence in the commissioner doing anything meaningful. The only way things are going to change is if team officials make concerted efforts to weed hazing out of the locker room culture. That or someone dies in a hazing incident and the league gets sued.

dubc47834
11-12-2013, 03:05 PM
I think it's already been established that Martin really had no one to go to within the organization. Incognito was on the players' leadership council, it appears Philbin was complicit by asking Incognito to "toughen" Martin up, and Ireland, when informed by Martin'sagagent, said Martin should punch Incognito (the football way of telling Martin and his agent to go pound salt). I read an article over the weekend where a number of NFL insiders said the responsibility lies mostly on Philbin and Ireland and that they will likely lose their jobs. It probably won't happen until the Dolphins are eliminated from playoff contention. Incognito will probably be back in the league after doing some suspension time. Martin is probably done with the Dolphins and may find difficulty finding a job in the future not because he's considered soft but because he's considered a snitch in players' circles and other teams won't want to deal with the issues that brings to the locker room. Meanwhile, the NFL will probably come out with an antihazing policy that won't amount to much because players being hazed won't report for fear of being "Martined." I have no confidence in the commissioner doing anything meaningful. The only way things are going to change is if team officials make concerted efforts to weed hazing out of the locker room culture. That or someone dies in a hazing incident and the league gets sued.

There is always someone higher you can report stuff to. If he had a problem with the team leadership/GM he coulda went to the NFL. If he went the NFL route he coulda done it anonamously. Its a matter of do you want to be labeled a snitch, or do you want to stop from being picked on. I agree that EVERYONE should probly lose their job in over this.

Yachtzee
11-12-2013, 07:26 PM
There is always someone higher you can report stuff to. If he had a problem with the team leadership/GM he coulda went to the NFL. If he went the NFL route he coulda done it anonamously. Its a matter of do you want to be labeled a snitch, or do you want to stop from being picked on. I agree that EVERYONE should probly lose their job in over this.

Maybe I'm wrong, but IIRC he did go to the NFL after leaving the team and the reports that he was being bullied came from the NFL. The reports said "voicemails and texts he submitted to the NFL," not "voicemails and texts he released to the press."

The Operator
11-12-2013, 08:13 PM
There is always someone higher you can report stuff to. If he had a problem with the team leadership/GM he coulda went to the NFL. If he went the NFL route he coulda done it anonamously. Its a matter of do you want to be labeled a snitch, or do you want to stop from being picked on. I agree that EVERYONE should probly lose their job in over this.Going to the NFL is precisely what he did do.

dubc47834
11-12-2013, 08:32 PM
Going to the NFL is precisely what he did do.

Hadn't heard that. Still gonna be interesting to hear what Martin has to say.

Dom Heffner
11-12-2013, 10:47 PM
Richie Incognito has a choice in his behavior.

And he's paying for that choice...as he should.

dubc47834
11-13-2013, 07:57 AM
Richie Incognito has a choice in his behavior.

And he's paying for that choice...as he should.

Who said he shouldn't and who is defending him?

Rojo
11-13-2013, 01:45 PM
Who said he shouldn't and who is defending him?

Well you've put the onus on Martin.

We had a discussion on here about a rape case where some posters focused on what the girl should've done or not done. Bullies and rapists are not tornadoes or Bengal tigers, put the focus on their behavior.

dubc47834
11-13-2013, 05:07 PM
Well you've put the onus on Martin.

We had a discussion on here about a rape case where some posters focused on what the girl should've done or not done. Bullies and rapists are not tornadoes or Bengal tigers, put the focus on their behavior.

I was not defending Incognito or his actions. I just think Martin coulda handled it better that's all.

Yachtzee
11-14-2013, 11:14 AM
The Onion checks in: (note: the story has a picture of a guy in a thong, so be careful if you're at work)

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nfl-players-worried-increased-media-scrutiny-could,34548/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

VottoFan54
02-04-2014, 01:07 AM
Texting conversations between Incognito and Martin have been released. Incognito doesn't seem like much of a bully after looking through these for a few minutes.

http://thebiglead.com/2014/02/03/here-are-over-1000-text-messages-that-richie-incognito-and-jonathan-martin-allegedly-exchanged/#sthash.0DX3EvWu.uxfs

Warning: The link has a lot of NSFW language.

Boston Red
02-04-2014, 02:23 AM
I read the whole thing. If there was bullying, it sure as hell wasn't in the texts.

bigredmechanism
02-04-2014, 01:13 PM
Texting conversations between Incognito and Martin have been released. Incognito doesn't seem like much of a bully after looking through these for a few minutes.

http://thebiglead.com/2014/02/03/here-are-over-1000-text-messages-that-richie-incognito-and-jonathan-martin-allegedly-exchanged/#sthash.0DX3EvWu.uxfs

Warning: The link has a lot of NSFW language.

Martin threw his friend under the bus. After reading those texts, Incognito comes across as a good friend, albeit kind of gross.

Martin's mother is a workplace harassment attorney. Maybe he realized he was going to get benched, and figured this was his way to still profit off of the situation?

Either way, Richie Incognito is owed an apology by the media. I'm sure he won't get it, though.

Joseph
02-04-2014, 07:28 PM
Damn. LOOKS like Incognito got screwed based on what I've read there. Don't know if these are real or not, but if they are.....ouch.

dubc47834
02-05-2014, 10:25 AM
His teammates love him. I'm reserving my judgment until everything comes out on this. Initially I was on Martins side, but as more and more comes out on this I just don't see him as totally a victim. Other black players on the Dolphins said they consider Incognito more black than Martin and that he is part of the brotherhood. Now that doesn't give him the right to call Martin what he called him, even if he talks to his other black teammates that way. To me it's a respect thing, respect to all that African Americans have gone thru in the past. My time in the military I have became VERY VERY close friends with black Soldiers and some would say I was their "boy" and that I could call them the N word. I ALWAYS said no, that I respected them more than that and didn't feel comfortable using that word. To me both Incognito and Martin are equally wrong in this and it will be very interesting to see what else comes out in this...this is FAR from over!

I think it's pretty safe to say that Martin comes out looking like a chump on this. I got blasted for my above comments, but I just didn't see Martin as being a "victim" in this case, just kinda insensitive. Its doesn't mean that the culture doesn't need to change in that locker room, just that Martin shoulda handled it better. You don't play a game with friends, then when you start losing, cry foul.

CTA513
02-14-2014, 11:26 AM
http://deadspin.com/investigation-finds-pattern-of-harassment-in-miami-1522833437



Ted Wells has released his report on allegations of bullying in the Dolphins locker room, and it's apparently bigger than just Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin.
Wells concluded that three players, Richie Incognito, John Jerry and Mike Pouncey, engaged in a "pattern of harassment" of Martin, another player, and an assistant trainer.


"The Report finds that the assistant trainer repeatedly was the object of racial slurs and other racially derogatory language; that the other offensive lineman was subjected to homophobic name-calling and improper physical touching; and that Martin was taunted on a persistent basis with sexually explicit remarks about his sister and his mother and at times ridiculed with racial insults and other offensive comments."



Some more stuff here, but just to warn everyone it contains some pretty graphic/explicit language:
http://deadspin.com/the-worst-stuff-from-the-dolphins-investigation-updati-1522846626

Wonderful Monds
02-14-2014, 01:42 PM
http://deadspin.com/investigation-finds-pattern-of-harassment-in-miami-1522833437




Some more stuff here, but just to warn everyone it contains some pretty graphic/explicit language:
http://deadspin.com/the-worst-stuff-from-the-dolphins-investigation-updati-1522846626

Now, somebody please tell me again how Martin is a "chump" and Incognito is just your regular guy who's getting screwed over. Holy crap.

Tom Servo
02-15-2014, 01:15 AM
Now, somebody please tell me again how Martin is a "chump" and Incognito is just your regular guy who's getting screwed over. Holy crap.
All quiet on the Incognito defense front. :laugh:


That said, I'll admit the thought briefly crossed my mind that maybe the bullying situation was overblown when those Incognito/Martin texts came out, but it was only a brief snapshot of a much deeper story, and it's obvious now from the messages to others that Martin was only trying to fit in.

Rojo
02-15-2014, 02:13 AM
Wow. I think Incognito needs to do some soul-searching on the homosexual front.

dubc47834
02-15-2014, 02:24 PM
All quiet on the Incognito defense front. :laugh:


That said, I'll admit the thought briefly crossed my mind that maybe the bullying situation was overblown when those Incognito/Martin texts came out, but it was only a brief snapshot of a much deeper story, and it's obvious now from the messages to others that Martin was only trying to fit in.

Yes, that Deadspin article is very damning, but it still doesn't change much for me. All along I have said that Incognito is not a good guy and has crossed a line. Also, Martin should have stepped up for himself and his sister. He didn't have to fight! Coach Philbin had no idea this was going on, he coulda nixed this before it got this far. If you don't like how people are treating you, it is your responsibility to let them or someone else know, this did not happen. Incognito is a POS, but Martin has some culpability in this for letting things get as far as they did! Now go ahead and blast away!!!

Hoosier Red
02-16-2014, 07:04 PM
To be fair to Martin, there's at the very least some evidence that the line coach did know about it. All the evidence he accumulated told him that the coaches knew about Incognito's behavior and approved of it.

It's very difficult to be in that position, and to feel like you are all alone.

What's particularly damning to me is Incognito's behavior toward "Player A"(later revealed to be Practice Squad player Andrew McDonald")

If a veteran feels like he needs to break down a high profile/high draft choice, I may not approve of his methods, but I at least understand the point of it.

But when the veteran "leader" does the same to an undrafted guy busting his tail to simply stay on the team, then it shows he's just a bully who didn't give bleep about any team goals that came ahead of his need to exert his power.

jojo
02-16-2014, 07:23 PM
To be fair to Martin, there's at the very least some evidence that the line coach did know about it. All the evidence he accumulated told him that the coaches knew about Incognito's behavior and approved of it.

It's very difficult to be in that position, and to feel like you are all alone.

What's particularly damning to me is Incognito's behavior toward "Player A"(later revealed to be Practice Squad player Andrew McDonald")

If a veteran feels like he needs to break down a high profile/high draft choice, I may not approve of his methods, but I at least understand the point of it.

But when the veteran "leader" does the same to an undrafted guy busting his tail to simply stay on the team, then it shows he's just a bully who didn't give bleep about any team goals that came ahead of his need to exert his power.

Frankly Incognito isn't a good enough player to put up with his crap in the clubhouse.

RedTeamGo!
02-17-2014, 09:25 AM
Frankly Incognito isn't a good enough player to put up with his crap in the clubhouse.

I do not really think anyone is good enough for a team to put up with this crap, but wasn't Incognito a pro-bowler in 2012?

Chip R
02-17-2014, 09:56 AM
What I wonder is if what happened in the Dolphins locker room is what happens in other NFL locker rooms. The players seem to be supporting Incognito so that makes me think what Incognito, et. al. did to Martin and the other guy wasn't unusual. Not excusing what they did and not condemning Martin but I'm not convinced that the Dolphins locker room is the exception and not the rule. I think "The Code" has prevented others from coming forward.

improbus
02-17-2014, 10:33 AM
What I wonder is if what happened in the Dolphins locker room is what happens in other NFL locker rooms. The players seem to be supporting Incognito so that makes me think what Incognito, et. al. did to Martin and the other guy wasn't unusual. Not excusing what they did and not condemning Martin but I'm not convinced that the Dolphins locker room is the exception and not the rule. I think "The Code" has prevented others from coming forward.
I can't believe people are surprised or shocked by this stuff. Look at the sport they play. Why would it be a surprise that a barbaric sport would be made up of barbarians? What do you think you are watching on Sundays?

Yachtzee
02-17-2014, 02:13 PM
What I wonder is if what happened in the Dolphins locker room is what happens in other NFL locker rooms. The players seem to be supporting Incognito so that makes me think what Incognito, et. al. did to Martin and the other guy wasn't unusual. Not excusing what they did and not condemning Martin but I'm not convinced that the Dolphins locker room is the exception and not the rule. I think "The Code" has prevented others from coming forward.

It does happen in other locker rooms, but I'm not sure how widespread it is. When the story broke, there were some players who mentioned bullying they've witnessed or experienced and some players from other teams spoke out against Incognito. Of course there were players who seem to believe it's just part of locker room bonding. I think different teams set different tones in their locker rooms. Some teams run a tight ship and some leave it up to the players to police themselves.

I think what's particularly troublesome about Incognito is his behavior extended beyond players to the staff. He also appears to have understood that he was crossing the line, telling his teammates to destroy the notebook from Kangaroo Court.

With the black eye the NFL has gotten on how they've dealt with concussions, they should probably come up with a clear anti-bullying policy. Seriously, with the mental health and concussion issues players are dealing with, future bullying incidents could end tragically.

oregonred
03-11-2014, 10:38 PM
Martin traded to the 49ers. Reunited with Harbaugh and the Bay Area.

WVRed
03-11-2014, 10:45 PM
Martin traded to the 49ers. Reunited with Harbaugh and the Bay Area.

I really feel like the 49ers are going to blow up this season, and not in a good way.

Between Harbaughs contract dispute and now the backup QB making more money than the starter (Gabbert and Kaepernick) things just seem like they are going to reach a boiling point.

Will be curious to see how Martin is treated on a different team though. Might be the best possible landing spot for him with his former coach.

oregonred
03-11-2014, 10:49 PM
And a new stadium to boot for the Niners. They are going to be must watch TV for 2014. No question about that. The Broncos (of course) are the early frontrunners for Demarcus Ware.

IslandRed
03-12-2014, 03:11 PM
Between Harbaughs contract dispute and now the backup QB making more money than the starter (Gabbert and Kaepernick) things just seem like they are going to reach a boiling point.

I don't think the latter is an issue, pretty much any veteran would be getting more since Kaepernick's still on his dirt-cheap rookie deal. The Niners aren't going to let him hit the market, he'll get his money and soon.