Concepcion included on Expansion Era ballot for Hall of Fame

[RedsBaron]

I just received an e-mail from the "Inside Pitch" of the National Baseball Hall of Fame announcing the 12 names on the 2014 Expansion Era ballot for the Hall of Fame.
The six players on the ballot are Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Dave Parker, Dan Quisenberry and Ted Simmons.
Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Billy Martin and Joe Torre are the former managers on the ballot, which also includes Marvin Miller and George Steinbrenner.

[RedsBaron]

The 16 members of the Committee who will vote on the Expanison Era ballot include the following members of the HOF: Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Whitey Herzog, Tom Lasorda, Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Phil Niekro and Frank Robinson.

[Sea Ray]

I just received an e-mail from the "Inside Pitch" of the National Baseball Hall of Fame announcing the 12 names on the 2014 Expansion Era ballot for the Hall of Fame.
The six players on the ballot are Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Dave Parker, Dan Quisenberry and Ted Simmons.
Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Billy Martin and Joe Torre are the former managers on the ballot, which also includes Marvin Miller and George Steinbrenner.

Is there an "expansion era ballot" every year?

[klw]

I just received an e-mail from the "Inside Pitch" of the National Baseball Hall of Fame announcing the 12 names on the 2014 Expansion Era ballot for the Hall of Fame.
The six players on the ballot are Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Dave Parker, Dan Quisenberry and Ted Simmons.
Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Billy Martin and Joe Torre are the former managers on the ballot, which also includes Marvin Miller and George Steinbrenner.

There are good arguments for all 6 of those guys to be in the HOF. Simmons has been a bit forgotten over time but has a very impressive resume.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/simmote01.shtml
6 of his 10 most similar players are in the Hall.

[Nathan]

Is there an "expansion era ballot" every year?

Every 3 years.

Before 1946. (Pre-Integration era)
1947-1972. (Golden era)
1972- (Expansion era.)

Next year is the Golden era.

[westofyou]

Every 3 years.

Before 1946. (Pre-Integration era)
1947-1972. (Golden era)
1972-1997 (Expansion era.)

Next year is the Golden era.

1998-? - The Medical Era

[George Anderson]

I would say LaRussa and Torre are shoo ins. Possibly Cox to.

A strong case could be made for Simmons but I doubt he makes it.

Davey is my #2 all time fav player but unfortunately he just misses my vote.

[Strikes Out Looking]

I would say LaRussa and Torre are shoo ins. Possibly Cox to.

A strong case could be made for Simmons but I doubt he makes it.

Davey is my #2 all time fav player but unfortunately he just misses my vote.

I'm sorry but if McGwire and company are kept out because of steroids, I would keep out TLR as well.

And if Ruzutto and Ozzie Smith are in, there is no reason Davey isn't HOF material.

[westofyou]

I'm sorry but if McGwire and company are kept out because of steroids, I would keep out TLR as well.

he didn't fail a test, he'll get in 1st ballot

[Strikes Out Looking]

he didn't fail a test, he'll get in 1st ballot

I seem to recall him failing a driving test a few years ago.

[westofyou]

I seem to recall him failing a driving test a few years ago.

That won't keep him out of the HOF, otherwise half the place could be empty

[George Anderson]

I'm sorry but if McGwire and company are kept out because of steroids, I would keep out TLR as well.

And if Ruzutto and Ozzie Smith are in, there is no reason Davey isn't HOF material.

I guess Torre doesn't belong either since Clemens cant get in.

Rizzuto doesnt belong but just because him being in lowered the bar means you should keep inducting less deserving players.

[M2]

Joe Torre should make the HOF as a player. He was better than Simmons. Add in his managerial career and he ought to be an automatic. Bobby Grich continues to be criminally overlooked.

It will be interesting to see if Lasorda pushes harder for Garvey or John. And I consider it Joe Morgan's personal duty to get Concepcion elected.

[DocRed]

Gee, I wonder how Morgan will vote?

[kheidg-]

Any thoughts on Steinbrenner?

My votes would go to both Cox and Concepcion.

[757690]

he didn't fail a test, he'll get in 1st ballot

Two of the teams he managed were both ground zero for steroids. He might not have failed a test, but I wouldn't be surprised if he helped his players pass a few that they should have failed. Honestly, mention two words: Steroids and Manager. The first name that pops into every baseball fans head is Tony LaRussa.

[marcshoe]

Looking at numbers, I'm a bit underwhelmed with most of the candidates. I've championed Tommy John for years, but honestly, he really doesn't belong. Torre and Parker are both in the same ballpark, and, imho, might be the most qualified, although I guess Torre would be going as a manager. I apologize for not saying Davey, but I just don't see it.

My first thought was that Parker would be the first of the old Charleston Charlies that I watched growing up to make it, but then a horrible thought occurred to me: so would tony LaRussa.

[Yachtzee]

Garvey is a first ballot candidate for the Horndog Hall of Fame. I remember it was quite shocking when his romantic affairs became public. While affairs were nothing new with regard to ballplayers, Garvey was such a surprise because of the "Mr. Clean" image he'd cultivated.

[M2]

I was just looking at the JAWS HOF ratings numbers. By no means should it be taken as a definitive guide, but it's got some interesting names at the top of the list. I'll list the top guys not in the HOF in various categories and I'll note when guys aren't better than the average HOFer according to JAWS (in most cases the guys listed will be above the HOF average).

Catcher (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Joe Torre, played more catcher than any other position, ranks between Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey

Best guy on the ballot - Mike Piazza, without specific steroids charges he should get in

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Ivan Rodriguez, JAWS has him rated #3 all-time behind the plate, behind only Johnny Bench and Gary Carter

Top active player - Joe Mauer, who should climb above the HOF average in the next year or two

First Base (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Keith Hernandez, below the HOF average at 1B, but still a strong candidate

Best guy on the ballot - Jeff Bagwell, that acne-pocked neck of his has proven problematic

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Frank Thomas, should be an automatic

Top active player - Albert Pujols, poised to surge past XX next season

Second Base (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_2B.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Bobby Grich, it would be if the world grasped the obvious in his lifetime

Best guy on the ballot - Craig Biggio, below the HOF average, solidifying my personal take that he's one of the more overrated players of modern times (behind Lou Whitaker, who got dropped without remorse)

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Jeff Kent, who ranks below Willie Randolph (not in) and above Billy Herman (in)

Top active player - Chase Utley, who ranks just ahead of Biggio

Shortstop (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Bill Dahlen, given the way they inducted almost every old timey SS who managed to play for more than a decade, Dahlen's exclusion is bizarre

Best guy on the ballot - Alan Trammell, there's no good argument against him

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Nomar Garciaparra, below the HOF SS average and a bit short on counting stats

Top active guy - A-Rod, though he's perilously close to jumping to the 3B list, at which time Derek Jeter takes the top spot here

Third Base (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_3B.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Graig Nettles, above average and seriously overlooked

Best guy on the ballot - Edgar Martinez, who's really a DH, but there's no other 3B worth mentioning on the active ballot

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Chipper Jones, slam dunk selection (and let's not forget about Scott Rolen too, since he's above the HOF average too)

Top active guy - Adrian Beltre, JAWS says he's already got the resume

Left Field (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_LF.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Sherry Magee, below average, but he's got a strong case (there's also that Pete Rose guy, but he's ineligible)

Best guy on the ballot - Barry Bonds, and if you prefer a non-steroids candidate it's Tim Raines, who needs to be elected already

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Is Manny Ramirez retired?

Top active guy - Matt Holliday, about to get passed by Ryan Braun, both have a long way to go for real HOF consideration

Center Field (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_CF.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Kenny Lofton, criminally dropped in his first year of eligibility, ranks #9 all-time on the JAWS list

Best guy on the ballot - Bernie Williams, ranks low on JAWS

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Ken Griffey Jr., comes in at #5 right between the Mick and Joe D

Top active guy - Carlos Beltran, another good year and he'll climb above average

Right Field (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_RF.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Dwight Evans, below average, but ahead of plenty of the mean (Shoeless Joe ranks higher, but he's ineligible)

Best guy on the ballot - Larry Walker, I keep thinking the world is going to wake up on Walker being painfully obvious

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Bob Abreu, ranks just ahead of Vlad Guerrero, with Dave Winfield sandwiched between them

Top active guy - Ichiro, likely never climbing above average

Starting Pitcher (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Wes Ferrell, below average, 4.04 career ERA, still ranks surprisingly high, there's some 19th century guys ahead of him, but I refuse to count those guys

Best guy on the ballot - Roger Clemens, #2 all-time, if you prefer someone not tainted by steroids it's Curt Schilling (and he's above the HOF average too)

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Randy Johnson/Greg Maddux in a dead heat (Pedro, Mussina and Glavine all above average too)

Top active guy - Roy Halladay, JAWS loves him

Relief Pitcher (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_RP.shtml)

Best vet off the main ballot - Bobby Shantz, below average, but #5 on the JAWS list

Best guy on the ballot - Lee Smith, however he is down at #14 on JAWS, which does not like pure closers

Best retired player coming onto the ballot - Mariano Rivera, only the Eck (who pitched 2,000 more innings) ranks ahead of him, prior to last month Tom Gordon ranked as the top guy here (at #6)

Top active guy - Joe Nathan, who actually ranks ahead of both Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman (leading me to question how well JAWS applies to relievers)

[George Anderson]

C Ted Simmons: (1968-88) Simmons HOF candidacy was always hurt by the fact that his career largely occurred during what can now be considered a Golden Age of catchers. In the 1970′s and into the ’80′s, there was no shortage of World Class catchers: Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Thurman Munson, Gene Tenace, Bob Boone, Darrell Porter, Jim Sundberg and Gary Carter, among others, each donned the so-called tools of ignorance. Ted Simmons had a fine career, but was overshadowed by some of these other catchers.

Still, B-R ranks Ted Simmons as the 10th best catcher of all-time. Simmons was an underrated defensive catcher, though no match for several of the others I’ve listed above. But more to the point, Simmons was a catcher who could really hit. Here are his batting averages from 1971-80: .304, .303, .310, .272, .332, .291, .318, .287, .283, and .303.

After switching leagues at age 31, leaving the Cardinals for the Brewers, Simmons caught fewer and fewer games every year, becoming increasingly a 1B / DH.

Despite the competition at his position and in his league, Simmons was named to eight All Star teams in his career. Only one catcher, Pudge Rodriguez, has ever hit more career doubles than Simmons’ total of 483, and his 1,389 RBI is also the second highest total of all time by a player whose primary position was catcher, surpassed only by Yogi Berra.

Strangely, Ted Simmons was only on the BBWAA HOF ballot for just one year, 1994, in which he received just 3.7% of the vote. Looking back nearly 20 years later, it’s difficult to understand how Simmons could garner such little support for such an excellent career.

Thus, Ted Simmons remains the best catcher not in the Hall of Fame. (Apologies to Joe Torre, my second choice.)

http://ondeckcircle.wordpress.com/tag/ted-simmons/



Before Ivan Rodriguez came along, that's exactly where Ted Simmons ranked among the hit leaders for catchers. First (he's now second). Can you imagine the all time leader in hits for a catcher debuting on the ballot and failing to collect the 5% to stay on the ballot? It's actually pretty insane.

Simmons is also second to Rodriguez in doubles (meaning he was #1 all time when he retired), second to Yogi Berra in RBI, fifth in extra-base hits, sixth in runs scored, and 11th in home runs (among catchers). He was an 8-time All Star. He finished in the top ten in batting average six times, hits four times, doubles eight times, and RBI six times. Again, the traditional numbers seem to set him up perfectly for induction

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/3/9/2853606/put-them-in-the-hall-of-fame-part-5-ted-simmons






Here are the all-time Runs Created leaders among catchers:



Player Career Runs Created
Mike Piazza 1,378
Carlton Fisk 1,378 Hall of Fame
Ted Simmons 1,283
Yogi Berra 1,265 Hall of Fame
Joe Torre 1,259
Johnny Bench 1,239 Hall of Fame
Gary Carter 1,184 Hall of Fame
Bill Dickey 1,164 Hall of Fame
Gabby Hartnett 1,161 Hall of Fame
Jason Kendall 1,112

http://www.billjamesonline.com/should_mike_piazza_be_in_the_hall_of_fame_/

[mth123]

I'm a big hall guy. I think John, Garvey, Simmons and Concepcion should all be in. I'd vote no on Quiz and Parker.

All 6 of the Managers and execs should be in.


If I had to vote for one of each group, I'd go with Tommy John and Marvin Miller.

[RedsBaron]

My guess is that one, two or all three of the managerial trio of Torre, LaRussa and Cox are selected; Torre probably has the best chance, and all three merit induction.
Billy Martin certainly had an interesting managerial career but I am not convinced that he is HOF worthy.
I doubt that any of the players are selected. Simmons probably is the most deserving of the six, while Garvey is probably the least qualified. There are certainly worse players in the HOF than this group of six. I'd love to see Davey selected but if Alan Trammell isn't HOF worthy it is hard for me to argue that Concepcion should be inducted.
I have no idea if Marvin Miller will finally go in.
Steinbrenner? No.

[mth123]

Tommy John was able to play major league baseball for 26 years. He did this in spite of missing an entire season with what, up until he came along, was a career ending injury 12 years into his career. His resolve and commitment allowed him to come back and play another 14 seasons after his "career ending" injury, No doubt Dr. Jobe was the star of that scenario, but that surgery may not have been successful with a lesser patient.

26 seasons in the big leagues is crazy. He should be in the hall for that alone. Add that he was a pretty darned effective pitcher and a trailblazer in a procedure that changed baseball history, and I don't see how he can't be in. I know there are other pitchers with similar numbers who have no chance, but if they can hang around for 26 years, I'd vote for them too.

[RedsBaron]

I place Tommy John with another lefty, his contemporary, Jim Kaat. John won 288 games and pitched 26 years, with an ERA+ of 111. Kaat won 283 games and pitched 25 years, with an ERA+ of 108. They probably should either both be in the HOF or neither should be.

[cumberlandreds]

Tommy John should be in just because of the surgery. When he came back from that he was better than ever too. Frank Jobe should get a mention on John's plack too.
Concepcion was a great SS. I have always said if he played in NYC he would have been an automatic selection. I think he will get in with Morgan on the committee.
The committee should vote Marvin Miller in. Miller made most of those guys millions of dollars by heading the union.
Simmons was a great hitter and pretty good defensive catcher. He played on some poor Cardinal teams that hurt him originally. He should get the nod too.

[cumberlandreds]

Garvey is a first ballot candidate for the Horndog Hall of Fame. I remember it was quite shocking when his romantic affairs became public. While affairs were nothing new with regard to ballplayers, Garvey was such a surprise because of the "Mr. Clean" image he'd cultivated.

I knew Garvey was a fake when he played with the Mr. Clean Cut Guy image he had. He proved he was a fake after he retired. He was the original Shawn Kemp.

[RedsBaron]

I knew Garvey was a fake when he played with the Mr. Clean Cut Guy image he had. He proved he was a fake after he retired. He was the original Shawn Kemp.

The scandals of Garvey fathering kids by multiple women broke around the same time as Pete Rose's gambling was revealed. I can remember one joke to the effect that Rose bet on The Breeders Cup and Garvey won it.

[Yachtzee]

My guess is that one, two or all three of the managerial trio of Torre, LaRussa and Cox are selected; Torre probably has the best chance, and all three merit induction.
Billy Martin certainly had an interesting managerial career but I am not convinced that he is HOF worthy.
I doubt that any of the players are selected. Simmons probably is the most deserving of the six, while Garvey is probably the least qualified. There are certainly worse players in the HOF than this group of six. I'd love to see Davey selected but if Alan Trammell isn't HOF worthy it is hard for me to argue that Concepcion should be inducted.
I have no idea if Marvin Miller will finally go in.
Steinbrenner? No.

I'd like to see Concepcion in the Hall, and I think Trammell should be in as well. Both were considered to be among the best SS of their eras. I think maybe if Concepcion gets in, it might help Trammell's lot with the Baseball Writers.

Personally I don't get the whole notion that the Baseball Hall of Fame should be some ueberexclusive club where only the best of the best should be enshrined. It's a museum, not Valhalla. I feel the Baseball Hall of Fame risks becoming the most talked about museum no one ever visits. If that's the goal, fine. Don't change a thing and we can have some more years where hardly anyone gets inducted. However, if they want people to actually come out to the Hall of Fame, bring the kids, and see some baseball history, they should be more to recognize the players from the '70s, '80s, and '90s. That's the era that most parents with children grew up watching and the most likely group to plan a family trip around a visit to theHall of Fame.

Maybe I'm biased because I live 40 minutes north of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but I think they do it right. Any fan nominate a player for consideration as long as they have a connection to pro football and they've been retired for 5 years. No rules about falling off the ballot for not getting the minimum vote percentage or being on the ballot 15 years. Now a selection committee will weed out the unworthy, but you still get a healthy number of players up for vote. Then the writers are required to elect between 4 and 7 players each year. Come Hall of Fame Weekend, every year is a huge deal where families travel from all over the country descend on Canton with a parade and tailgating and a sold out Hall of Fame Game. And the museum itself is designed with fans of all ages in mind. One of my youngest football memories was going to the Hall with my Aunt and watching NFL Football Follies in their movie theater. They have all kinds of exhibits geared toward kids, and even in the off-season the place has parents bringing their kids to check it out. And the gift shop has all kinds of stuff for every team. It truly is a place designed with fans in mind.

On the other hand, I took my wife and young boys to the Baseball Hall of Fame about 6 years ago and, while I found it great as a student of baseball history, my family didn't share my interest. It was somewhat elitist and boring compared to the Pro Football Hall. And most of the other visitors were in the 55+ crowd. Even most of the restaurants in town were geared toward either the elderly tour bus crowd or the well healed couples. And of course the gift shop was all about NY (Yankees, Brooklyn Dodgers, Giants, Mets) and Boston. The whole place was like Ken Burns' baseball documentary in living form, interesting to those who like baseball history and the older crowd for nostalgic reasons, boring as all get out to everyone else.

Therefore, I say let all these guys in.

[RedsBaron]

I found Yachtzee's comparison between Cooperstown and Canton to be interesting. I made my first visit to Coooperstown in late June of 2012. I visited the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton several years ago.
I wasn't as impressed as Yachtzee by the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is close by an interstate. I found its location to be lacking in "atmosphere," with no sense of stepping back through the "portals of time" to a "bygone era". This isn't a criticism of the museum itself, just the location.
Keeping in mind that I am an old guy (58), I was blown away by the location of the Baseball Hall of Fame, nestled in Cooperstown and the gorgeous Finger Lakes area of New York. I really did feel as if I had become part of a Norman Rockwell painting come to life.
As for the voting procedure, while I am not crazy about the football committee which gets to vote on candidates, since it appears susceptible to allowing media members to "blackball" certain players, I do like the fact that every year several people will be inducted, including living, breathing people.
I wonder if the Baseball HOF even needs to have a committee considering the pre-integration, pre-1946 era. There probably is one or two players who still deserve to be enshrined, and as long as team owners are eligible I thought it was about time Jacob Ruppert finally made it, but I think it is fair to say that just about anyone who truly had a good case for the HOF who played before 1946 has been enshrined, and anyone else from that era is probably dead and unable to enjoy the honor anyway.
I assume it drove the Baseball HOF management nuts this year to have an induction weekend without a single living inductee to be honored.
Of course, if the Baseball HOF adopted the voting procedures of the Football HOF in full, then would that mean that players who bet on the game would be eligible for enshrinement as was the case with Paul Hornung? If so, then I can think of one candidate who would benefit (it is a RedsZone rule that any HOF discussion has to eventually mention Peter Edward Rose ;) ).

[Yachtzee]

I found Yachtzee's comparison between Cooperstown and Canton to be interesting. I made my first visit to Coooperstown in late June of 2012. I visited the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton several years ago.
I wasn't as impressed as Yachtzee by the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is close by an interstate. I found its location to be lacking in "atmosphere," with no sense of stepping back through the "portals of time" to a "bygone era". This isn't a criticism of the museum itself, just the location.
Keeping in mind that I am an old guy (58), I was blown away by the location of the Baseball Hall of Fame, nestled in Cooperstown and the gorgeous Finger Lakes area of New York. I really did feel as if I had become part of a Norman Rockwell painting come to life.
As for the voting procedure, while I am not crazy about the football committee which gets to vote on candidates, since it appears susceptible to allowing media members to "blackball" certain players, I do like the fact that every year several people will be inducted, including living, breathing people.
I wonder if the Baseball HOF even needs to have a committee considering the pre-integration, pre-1946 era. There probably is one or two players who still deserve to be enshrined, and as long as team owners are eligible I thought it was about time Jacob Ruppert finally made it, but I think it is fair to say that just about anyone who truly had a good case for the HOF who played before 1946 has been enshrined, and anyone else from that era is probably dead and unable to enjoy the honor anyway.
I assume it drove the Baseball HOF management nuts this year to have an induction weekend without a single living inductee to be honored.
Of course, if the Baseball HOF adopted the voting procedures of the Football HOF in full, then would that mean that players who bet on the game would be eligible for enshrinement as was the case with Paul Hornung? If so, then I can think of one candidate who would benefit (it is a RedsZone rule that any HOF discussion has to eventually mention Peter Edward Rose ;) ).

Funny you should mention the atmosphere around the respective Halls of Fame. In a way, where they are located is pretty much perfect based on where the roots of the professional game were for each respective sport. Pro Baseball got its start as the gentlemanly amateur clubs of the 1850s started paying better players in the 1860s. We generally think of early baseball in a more pastoral setting. Meanwhile, pro football teams got their start often using factory or railroad workers (where you'd find the biggest, strongest dudes before the days of nutrition and weight training). Games were often played on fields next to the factory or railyard so that players could practice on their lunch breaks. So to put the Football Hall of Fame in Canton, the old factory town that gave birth to the NFL makes sense in that regard.

Of course that is really not the point I was trying to make. What makes the Football Hall of Fame great, regardless of location, is that it appeals to fans of all ages, which is where I think the Baseball Hall of Fame is lacking. Considering we have a thread about how kids aren't watching baseball as much anymore, I think the problems I mentioned with the Baseball Hall of Fame are symptoms that indicate that MLB is out of touch with the younger generations. Celebrating old-timey baseball is all fine and good, but I think you also need to give more credence to the modern era. Most people alive today weren't around in the time of the Brooklyn Dodgers and NY Giants and most adults have their first memories of baseball coming in the years of multipurpose stadia with astroturf fields. No offense, but I think the Baseball Hall of Fame should probably stop catering to the nostalgia of the Baby-boom generation and start looking at how to attract the younger generations and their kids if it wants to remain a popular tourist destination.

[WrongVerb]

The only argument I can see in favor of Concepcion is that he invented, or at least was the first one to use consistently, the bounce throw off the astroturf to first base. I'm a believer that even if numbers don't necessarily warrant it, the game's innovators and pioneers deserve special consideration.

Whether the throw employed by Davey can be considered hall-worthy is a debate worth having, though.

[Chip R]

Of course, if the Baseball HOF adopted the voting procedures of the Football HOF in full, then would that mean that players who bet on the game would be eligible for enshrinement as was the case with Paul Hornung? If so, then I can think of one candidate who would benefit (it is a RedsZone rule that any HOF discussion has to eventually mention Peter Edward Rose ;) ).

The difference is that Hornung (and Alex Karras) was only suspended for a year then reinstated. Pro football has never had a Black Sox scandal in their past so they never had any ineligible players when it came time to have a hall of fame.

[klw]

http://www.krakov.net/si/images/1982/0412_large.jpg
Oops

[Big Klu]

The only argument I can see in favor of Concepcion is that he invented, or at least was the first one to use consistently, the bounce throw off the astroturf to first base. I'm a believer that even if numbers don't necessarily warrant it, the game's innovators and pioneers deserve special consideration.

Dave Concepcion was the standard by which the shortstop position was measured for about 10 years (1972-82). I've always believed that how a player measures up vs. his peers should carry weight in HOF consideration. For a ten-year span, there was not a better all-around SS than Davey.

[westofyou]

Dave Concepcion was the standard by which the shortstop position was measured for about 10 years (1972-82). I've always believed that how a player measures up vs. his peers should carry weight in HOF consideration. For a ten-year span, there was not a better all-around SS than Davey.



CAREER
1972-1982
SS
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average (SS)


OPS OPS RC/G PA
1 Roy Smalley .736 1.25 4197 Rangers/Twins/Yankees
2 Robin Yount .735 1.29 5257 Brewers
3 Garry Templeton .725 0.94 3715 Cardinals/Padres
4 Dave Concepcion .711 1.02 6304 Reds
5 Rick Burleson .690 0.60 5034 Red Sox/Angels
6 Chris Speier .682 0.67 5953 Giants/Expos
7 Bill Russell .656 0.25 6021 Dodgers
8 Ivan DeJesus .654 0.41 4030 Dodgers/Cubs/Phillies
9 Don Kessinger .639 0.30 4133 Cubs/Cardinals/White Sox
10 Larry Bowa .631 0.21 6629 Phillies/Cubs



Fielding Runs Above Average (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?search=FRAA)



CAREER
1972-1982
SS

FRAA FRAA
1 Mark Belanger 126 Orioles/Dodgers
2 Dave Concepcion 98 Reds
3 Ozzie Smith 73 Padres/Cardinals
4 Bill Russell 72 Dodgers
5 Bert Campaneris 68 A's/Rangers/Angels
6 Garry Templeton 57 Cardinals/Padres
7 Bucky Dent 56 White Sox/Yankees/Rangers
8 Rick Burleson 48 Red Sox/Angels
9 Chris Speier 35 Giants/Expos
10 Tim Foli 33 Expos/Giants/Mets/Pirates/Angels

[RedsBaron]

Funny you should mention the atmosphere around the respective Halls of Fame. In a way, where they are located is pretty much perfect based on where the roots of the professional game were for each respective sport. Pro Baseball got its start as the gentlemanly amateur clubs of the 1850s started paying better players in the 1860s. We generally think of early baseball in a more pastoral setting. Meanwhile, pro football teams got their start often using factory or railroad workers (where you'd find the biggest, strongest dudes before the days of nutrition and weight training). Games were often played on fields next to the factory or railyard so that players could practice on their lunch breaks. So to put the Football Hall of Fame in Canton, the old factory town that gave birth to the NFL makes sense in that regard.

Of course that is really not the point I was trying to make. What makes the Football Hall of Fame great, regardless of location, is that it appeals to fans of all ages, which is where I think the Baseball Hall of Fame is lacking. Considering we have a thread about how kids aren't watching baseball as much anymore, I think the problems I mentioned with the Baseball Hall of Fame are symptoms that indicate that MLB is out of touch with the younger generations. Celebrating old-timey baseball is all fine and good, but I think you also need to give more credence to the modern era. Most people alive today weren't around in the time of the Brooklyn Dodgers and NY Giants and most adults have their first memories of baseball coming in the years of multipurpose stadia with astroturf fields. No offense, but I think the Baseball Hall of Fame should probably stop catering to the nostalgia of the Baby-boom generation and start looking at how to attract the younger generations and their kids if it wants to remain a popular tourist destination.

I think you make some good points.

[M2]

Great posts Yachtzee and RedsBaron.

HOF members by decade in which they started their career (additional Negro Leaguers in parens):

1980s - 8
1970s - 15
1960s - 21
1950s - 21
1940s - 16
1930s - 20 (7)
1920s - 32 (8)
1910s - 22 (5)
1900s - 16 (4)
1890s - 22 (1)
1880s - 14 (1)
1870s - 10

So MLB has expanded and it's become significantly tougher to make the HOF. Cooperstown is making itself obsolete. My cursory count for NFL players who started their careers in the 1980s who've made it to Canton is 37.

[kheidg-]

I place Tommy John with another lefty, his contemporary, Jim Kaat. John won 288 games and pitched 26 years, with an ERA+ of 111. Kaat won 283 games and pitched 25 years, with an ERA+ of 108. They probably should either both be in the HOF or neither should be.

While I don't have an argument against Tommy John - I couldn't disagree more.

Jim Kaat had 16 gold glove awards including 13 straight. This is a record for a pitcher. He is second in total to only Maddux and his 18.

Tommy John didn't have a single gold glove award.

And, Kaat, in his 14-season prime, from 1962-75, he started 480 games, appeared in 524, went 225-163 and produced a 3.21 ERA.

[westofyou]

BATTERS FACED BFP
1 Cy Young 30058 Spiders/Cardinals/Red Sox/Indians/Braves
2 Pud Galvin 25234 Bisons/Alleghenys/Pirates/Burghers/Pirates/Cardinals
3 Walter Johnson 23749 Senators
4 Phil Niekro 22677 Braves/Yankees/Indians/Blue Jays/Braves
5 Nolan Ryan 22575 Mets/Angels/Astros/Rangers
6 Gaylord Perry 21953 Giants/Indians/Rangers/Padres/Rangers/Yankees/Braves/Mariners/Royals
7 Steve Carlton 21683 Cardinals/Phillies/Giants/White Sox/Indians/Twins
8 Don Sutton 21631 Dodgers/Astros/Brewers/A's/Angels/Dodgers
9 Warren Spahn 21547 Braves/Mets/Giants
10 Kid Nichols 21243 Braves/Cardinals/Phillies
11 Tim Keefe 20975 Trojans/Metropolitians/Giants/Phillies
12 Grover C Alexander 20928 Phillies/Cubs/Cardinals/Phillies
13 Bert Blyleven 20491 Twins/Rangers/Pirates/Indians/Twins/Angels
14 Greg Maddux 20421 Cubs/Braves/Cubs/Dodgers/Padres/Dodgers
15 Roger Clemens 20240 Red Sox/Blue Jays/Yankees/Astros/Yankees
16 Tommy John 19692 Indians/White Sox/Dodgers/Yankees/Angels/A's/Yankees
17 Early Wynn 19408 Senators/Indians/White Sox/Indians
18 Tom Seaver 19369 Mets/Reds/Mets/White Sox/Red Sox
19 Robin Roberts 19174 Phillies/Orioles/Astros/Cubs
20 Christy Mathewson 19136 Giants/Reds
21 Jim Kaat 19021 Senators/Twins/White Sox/Phillies/Yankees/Cardinals

[RedsBaron]

While I don't have an argument against Tommy John - I couldn't disagree more.

Jim Kaat had 16 gold glove awards including 13 straight. This is a record for a pitcher. He is second in total to only Maddux and his 18.

Tommy John didn't have a single gold glove award.

And, Kaat, in his 14-season prime, from 1962-75, he started 480 games, appeared in 524, went 225-163 and produced a 3.21 ERA.

Unlike players at other positions I don't give a significant boost to pitchers because of their fielding abilities, or lack thereof. What matters to me with a pitcher is how well did he prevent the other team from scoring. Kaat and John's numbers , such as ERA+ and WHIP, are roughly comparable, and their careers greatly overlapped.
I do tend to give a slight edge to Kaat because I think he had a few more "big" years than did John, although they both won 20 games three times. Had MLB started the practice of giving a Cy Young award to a pitcher in each league in 1966 rather than 1967 then Kaat would have had that trophy, as he certainly would have been given the 1966 AL Cy Young award after a 25 win season.

[RedsBaron]

The difference is that Hornung (and Alex Karras) was only suspended for a year then reinstated. Pro football has never had a Black Sox scandal in their past so they never had any ineligible players when it came time to have a hall of fame.

Hornung was also publicly contrite, unlike Karras, which may help explain why Hornung is in the HOF while Karras is not.
Rose of course was defiant and lied about his gambling for a decade.
Karras does get the distinction of easily being the best actor of the trio. ;)

[Yachtzee]

Hornung was also publicly contrite, unlike Karras, which may help explain why Hornung is in the HOF while Karras is not.
Rose of course was defiant and lied about his gambling for a decade.
Karras does get the distinction of easily being the best actor of the trio. ;)

Mongo just pawn in game of life.

[bounty37h]

I didn't realize managers don't have to wait the 5 years after retirement as players do-is this because they are older and want to give them a chance to make sure they are alive when enshrined, or is their playing career taken into account as well?

[REDREAD]

So MLB has expanded and it's become significantly tougher to make the HOF. Cooperstown is making itself obsolete. My cursory count for NFL players who started their careers in the 1980s who've made it to Canton is 37.

I don't get that either.

Didn't no one get elected to the HOF last year? If that doesn't say that the system is broken, I am not sure what does.

And this whole distinction of "First time ballot HOF" or "You know, we're going to make this guy wait 10+ years" is elitist and stupid.

Would it have killed anyone to vote in Biggio last year? The guy had no steriod ties that I know of. He was one of the most famous players of his era. All star at C, 2b and OF.. (Not that allstar appearances correlates with performance, but I doubt anyone ever does that again)..

If Biggio doesn't have enough "fame" to get in, what's the point of having the HOF, other than a monument to Ruth and other guys.. The message seems to be "They don't make ballplayers as good as they used to."

And as another side, the system is also broken if Lofton falls off on the first ballot. What a joke.

[Norm Chortleton]

I don't get that either.

Didn't no one get elected to the HOF last year? If that doesn't say that the system is broken, I am not sure what does.

And this whole distinction of "First time ballot HOF" or "You know, we're going to make this guy wait 10+ years" is elitist and stupid.

Would it have killed anyone to vote in Biggio last year? The guy had no steriod ties that I know of. He was one of the most famous players of his era. All star at C, 2b and OF.. (Not that allstar appearances correlates with performance, but I doubt anyone ever does that again)..

If Biggio doesn't have enough "fame" to get in, what's the point of having the HOF, other than a monument to Ruth and other guys.. The message seems to be "They don't make ballplayers as good as they used to."

And as another side, the system is also broken if Lofton falls off on the first ballot. What a joke.
I can't disagree with you more. This is why I love the way MLB does it. If there are no qualified players in a given year, none go in. I think it's ridiculous that 6 players must be elected per year for the NFL, no matter what.

I will agree with your point that the whole "1st ballot" issue is asinine. You are either a HOFer or you are not. It's silly that guys aren't good enough to get in 5 years after they retire, but do become good enough 10, 15, 20 years later.

[REDREAD]

I can't disagree with you more. This is why I love the way MLB does it. If there are no qualified players in a given year, none go in. I think it's ridiculous that 6 players must be elected per year for the NFL, no matter what.

I will agree with your point that the whole "1st ballot" issue is asinine. You are either a HOFer or you are not. It's silly that guys aren't good enough to get in 5 years after they retire, but do become good enough 10, 15, 20 years later.

What's really silly is that Concepcion might get it now. I'll use him as an example. Guy retired in the early 80's (maybe mid 80's).. So roughly 30 years later, he might finally get his recognition, at a time where only diehard and old fans are even going to remember him. Way to market yourselves, baseball HOF. Wait until the player is forgotten and pretty much irrelevant. Wait until absolutely no buzz will be generated when the player gets in.

If it was up to me, I'd stop putting owners, broadcasters, etc in the HOF and focus just on the players (maybe the managers too). I mean, do they seriously think someone is going to go to the HOF to see a Steinbrenner display (if he's elected)? Or some old commissioner?

I don't want to force the HOF to elect someone every year, but there were plenty of worthy candidates last year (even if you exclude everyone with a steroid cloud on them).

[Norm Chortleton]

^ I agree. Davey was my favorite player growing up. But he was either a HOFer 5 years after he retired or he was not. That was the time to make the decision to induct him. Not now.

[M2]

I can't disagree with you more. This is why I love the way MLB does it. If there are no qualified players in a given year, none go in. I think it's ridiculous that 6 players must be elected per year for the NFL, no matter what.

There was somewhere north of 15 players good enough to be in the HOF on last year's ballot.

And I much prefer a HOF that honors the players I got to see play than one which treats them with disdain. The double-standard being applied to modern players is shameful.

If you go by the standards of how the Hall treated Golden Era players, there's roughly 10 more players from the 1960s who should be there, 15-20 from the 1970s and 30 from the 1980s. As Yachtzee and RedsBaron commented earlier, unless you're into relatively ancient baseball history why go to Cooperstown? It's made a judgment that the game I grew up watching and fell in love with was substandard. I don't see why I'd waste my money on a place like that.

[RedsBaron]

There was somewhere north of 15 players good enough to be in the HOF on last year's ballot.

And I much prefer a HOF that honors the players I got to see play than one which treats them with disdain. The double-standard being applied to modern players is shameful.

If you go by the standards of how the Hall treated Golden Era players, there's roughly 10 more players from the 1960s who should be there, 15-20 from the 1970s and 30 from the 1980s. As Yachtzee and RedsBaron commented earlier, unless you're into relatively ancient baseball history why go to Cooperstown? It's made a judgment that the game I grew up watching and fell in love with was substandard. I don't see why I'd waste my money on a place like that.
Amen.
I cannot recall a year in the last several decades when there was not a single player on the ballot who was qualified for the HOF.

[westofyou]

Amen.
I cannot recall a year in the last several decades when there was not a single player on the ballot who was qualified for the HOF.

IIRC the last empty year was in 1960 or so

[Yachtzee]

There was somewhere north of 15 players good enough to be in the HOF on last year's ballot.

And I much prefer a HOF that honors the players I got to see play than one which treats them with disdain. The double-standard being applied to modern players is shameful.

If you go by the standards of how the Hall treated Golden Era players, there's roughly 10 more players from the 1960s who should be there, 15-20 from the 1970s and 30 from the 1980s. As Yachtzee and RedsBaron commented earlier, unless you're into relatively ancient baseball history why go to Cooperstown? It's made a judgment that the game I grew up watching and fell in love with was substandard. I don't see why I'd waste my money on a place like that.

Part of the problem is that a lot of players from the '70s and '80s came onto the ballot during the steroid era of the '90s. So although they might have been considered potential Hall of Famers in their time, suddenly they didn't look so good when compared to the muscley guys of the late '90s-2000s. Of course now we have the issue that a lot of these guys dropped off the ballot because they had their 15 years, and some failed to get their 5% to stay on the ballot. Now their only way in is to rely on the revamped Veterans Committee process, which hasn't been the best at recognizing players from the '70s-00s either. Ironically, no one seems to want to vote in the steroid era guys either, even though they were using those inflated numbers to justify not voting in more players from the '70s and '80s.

I like the idea of including fans into the process, such as allowing fans to nominate players for consideration like they do for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Now they would still have to go through a vetting process, so that the ballot isn't loaded with absurd choices like Dickie Thon or Don Mossi. But if fans want Kenny Lofton or Dale Murphy to be reconsidered, they can get these guys back on the ballot. I would also open up voting to members of new media to reflect changes in how baseball is covered. I think relying only on members of the Baseball Writers' Association is a big reason for the Baseball Hall losing touch with the younger generations.

[George Anderson]

I think relying only on members of the Baseball Writers' Association is a big reason for the Baseball Hall losing touch with the younger generations.

This is what I disagree with. I am 45 and for the vast majority of my life I have known very few people that really care about the HOF. I don't think if tomorrow they opened the doors and let Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey into the HOF that all of a sudden a younger generation of Dodger or baseball fans would suddenly have great interest in the HOF. Look at Reds fans when Barry Larkin was inducted. Yes, everyone was proud, happy and excited when he was inducted, but it is not like because of his induction a new wave of Reds fans have suddenly a great interest in the HOF that they didn't have before the Larkin induction. I think regardless of who gets inducted, either you like the HOF or you don't.

I personally like it that they have tightened things up and are more strict with who they let in. Bill Mazeroski, Phil Rizzuto, Jim Bunning and Richie Ashburn were guys that have been inducted somewhat recently who IMO should not have been. The last thing I want to see is Cooperstown turn into a joke like what the Reds HOF has become by bowing to the fans and giving them whatever inductee they want regardless of how undeserving that player is. Cooperstown to me is almost a holy place that needs to be treated with great reverence. It should be a place where the very best who played the game are enshrined and not just popular players that the fans want to see in there.

[M2]

Cooperstown to me is almost a holy place that needs to be treated with great reverence. It should be a place where the very best who played the game are enshrined and not just popular players that the fans want to see in there.

Well, we certainly wouldn't a fan-friendly HOF.

[George Anderson]

Well, we certainly wouldn't a fan-friendly HOF.

Good point.

I think we should elect Sean Casey to Cooperstown. Reds fans by the gazillions will make the treck for that well deserved induction ceremony.

[M2]

Good point.

I think we should elect Sean Casey to Cooperstown. Reds fans by the gazillions will make the treck for that well deserved induction ceremony.

Or we could elect the slew of players who aren't in, but are better than any number of current HOFers. Just a thought.

[redsmetz]

^ I agree. Davey was my favorite player growing up. But he was either a HOFer 5 years after he retired or he was not. That was the time to make the decision to induct him. Not now.

Of course, that would suggest he (and everyone) be elected on their first year of eligibility. I'm sure that's not what you're saying, but over the course of his years of eligibility he wasn't. Many of us believe that's a mistake. HOF voting is not done in a vacuum.

It's a flawed system, but other variables come into play. Who else was eligible at the time, how long had they waited, etc. And as one poster has since mentioned, Concepcion's eligible years coincided with the beefier, power-hitting shortstop era, something little seen prior to that. Ozzie Smith went in solely on his defensive skills and, IMO, it's a huge oversight to not recognize Davey who was Ozzie before Ozzie was (sans the flips). Until Smith came up, Concepcion was pretty much without peer.

Someone else later noted they see the Hall as "almost holy" - a shrine to the very, very best. I don't disagree, but see it a bit more expansively. The moment I walked through the Hall's doors, I had goosebumps. But it's there to tell the story of baseball and its greats. Without Concepcion, that story is incomplete, IMHO.

[RedsBaron]

I personally like it that they have tightened things up and are more strict with who they let in. Bill Mazeroski, Phil Rizzuto, Jim Bunning and Richie Ashburn were guys that have been inducted somewhat recently who IMO should not have been. The last thing I want to see is Cooperstown turn into a joke like what the Reds HOF has become by bowing to the fans and giving them whatever inductee they want regardless of how undeserving that player is. Cooperstown to me is almost a holy place that needs to be treated with great reverence. It should be a place where the very best who played the game are enshrined and not just popular players that the fans want to see in there.

The HOF has not been so restrictive so as to keep out players as great as Bunning, Ashburn and Rizzuto since the mid-1940s. They are not even close to being the least qualified members of the HOF.

[George Anderson]

The HOF has not been so restrictive so as to keep out players as great as Bunning, Ashburn and Rizzuto since the mid-1940s. They are not even close to being the least qualified members of the HOF.

I am well aware of the many players that were undeservingly elected by Frankie Frisch and his cronies back in the 60's and 70's. But just because Frisch and his cronies screwed up by basically inducting their undeserving friends and teammates means that we should keep the bar lowered.

IMO Mazerowski and Rizzuto especially are awfully close to being the least qualified players inducted. Its debatable if they were as underserving as players like Jim Bottomley, Jesse Haines and Freddie Lindstrom but they were very undeserving IMO.

[Norm Chortleton]

Of course, that would suggest he (and everyone) be elected on their first year of eligibility. I'm sure that's not what you're saying, but over the course of his years of eligibility he wasn't. Many of us believe that's a mistake. HOF voting is not done in a vacuum.

It's a flawed system, but other variables come into play. Who else was eligible at the time, how long had they waited, etc. And as one poster has since mentioned, Concepcion's eligible years coincided with the beefier, power-hitting shortstop era, something little seen prior to that. Ozzie Smith went in solely on his defensive skills and, IMO, it's a huge oversight to not recognize Davey who was Ozzie before Ozzie was (sans the flips). Until Smith came up, Concepcion was pretty much without peer.

Someone else later noted they see the Hall as "almost holy" - a shrine to the very, very best. I don't disagree, but see it a bit more expansively. The moment I walked through the Hall's doors, I had goosebumps. But it's there to tell the story of baseball and its greats. Without Concepcion, that story is incomplete, IMHO.

That is exactly what I'm saying. 5 years is plenty of time to debate whether a player is HOF-worthy. It's senseless for guys like Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven, Goose Gossage, Jim Rice, etc., to be on the ballot year after year and not get in. Then, when they reach their last year or two of eligibility, the voters say, "uh, oh, we better decide what to do with them."

[redsmetz]

That is exactly what I'm saying. 5 years is plenty of time to debate whether a player is HOF-worthy. It's senseless for guys like Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven, Goose Gossage, Jim Rice, etc., to be on the ballot year after year and not get in. Then, when they reach their last year or two of eligibility, the voters say, "uh, oh, we better decide what to do with them."

I would respectfully disagree. Since the HOF has a flawed system (in my opinion), it's important to have the means rectify the inequities brought on my those flaws. And, frankly, there needs to be times where a keener eye can be given for those overlooked.

Obviously you and I are not going to agree, but I think there are players who are not given their due and a subsequent look, IMO, is a good thing.

[Norm Chortleton]

I would respectfully disagree. Since the HOF has a flawed system (in my opinion), it's important to have the means rectify the inequities brought on my those flaws. And, frankly, there needs to be times where a keener eye can be given for those overlooked.

Obviously you and I are not going to agree, but I think there are players who are not given their due and a subsequent look, IMO, is a good thing.

I'm not against a subsequent look. Or even 2 or 3. But 15 consecutive subsequent looks? Too many. Followed by more subsequent looks from whatever they call the veteran's committee these days.

[M2]

That is exactly what I'm saying. 5 years is plenty of time to debate whether a player is HOF-worthy. It's senseless for guys like Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven, Goose Gossage, Jim Rice, etc., to be on the ballot year after year and not get in. Then, when they reach their last year or two of eligibility, the voters say, "uh, oh, we better decide what to do with them."

In theory you're right, but the voters are incredibly incompetent. They still haven't come around on Tim Raines (who was every bit as good as first ballot Tony Gwynn). Larry Walker pretty much duplicated Duke Snider's career at the plate, and then added sterling defense (7 Gold Gloves) and quality baserunning on top of it. Yet he's still stuck in the middle of the ballot. Curt Schilling pitched better than most of the arms in the HOF and voters greeted him with a shrug.

Personally I'd scrap the current system entirely, but if the BBWAA vote continues then we've got to give those clods as much time as possible.

[marcshoe]

In theory you're right, but the voters are incredibly incompetent. They still haven't come around on Tim Raines (who was every bit as good as first ballot Tony Gwynn). Larry Walker pretty much duplicated Duke Snider's career at the plate, and then added sterling defense (7 Gold Gloves) and quality baserunning on top of it. Yet he's still stuck in the middle of the ballot. Curt Schilling pitched better than most of the arms in the HOF and voters greeted him with a shrug.

Personally I'd scrap the current system entirely, but if the BBWAA vote continues then we've got to give those clods as much time as possible.

Of course Duke Snider wasn't elected to the Hall until his 11th (!) year on the ballot! I remember because he was my mother's favorite player.