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Ron Delancey
12-11-2013, 10:16 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/yankees-targeting-justin-masterson.html

We could take Gardner and send BP back to Cleveland haha

But more seriously...

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/shin-soo-choo-rumors-wednesday.html

We need to get rid of BP... Send him to New York for Gardner and put Choo in left field...I know it's a lot of lefties, but it seemed to work for Philadelphia a few years ago.

Rando
12-11-2013, 02:24 PM
BP needs to stay where he's at. There's no better replacement available offensively or defensively. Taking on a huge contract like Choo's would be a bad idea.

What happens to CF? Bruce? Maybe

Where does Ludwick go?

We'll never sign Choo and we just need to accept that. No matter how you look at it, if you trade any of our big names the team does not get better.

No pants Mcgee
12-12-2013, 12:18 PM
Just playing devils advocate here, but why are many in the trade BP camp so quick to sign Choo to a mega deal? I agree it was a mistake to sign a 30+ year old BP to a big deal, but why go right back and make an even bigger deal to a 30+ year old Choo?

dubc47834
12-12-2013, 12:26 PM
Just playing devils advocate here, but why are many in the trade BP camp so quick to sign Choo to a mega deal? I agree it was a mistake to sign a 30+ year old BP to a big deal, but why go right back and make an even bigger deal to a 30+ year old Choo?

Right, and then in 2 years people will wanting to trade Choo because he is over priced. The cycle would never end!

Ron Delancey
12-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Because Choo doesn't have an attitude like BP...I can handle overpaying a player as long as he just shuts up and does his job. Choo is one of the hardest working players in baseball. He is a team first player..BP wants the spotlight on him.

Ron Delancey
12-12-2013, 12:42 PM
But yes...in two years, we might be wanting to trade Choo..That's the way baseball works. You sign these guys for probably more than they're worth and then trade them to a big market team in a few years when you can't afford them anymore.

No pants Mcgee
12-12-2013, 12:51 PM
Because Choo doesn't have an attitude like BP...I can handle overpaying a player as long as he just shuts up and does his job. Choo is one of the hardest working players in baseball. He is a team first player..BP wants the spotlight on him.

Fair enough. I don't agree with everything, but that doesn't mean you're wrong.

Halfway between
12-13-2013, 11:19 AM
Just playing devils advocate here, but why are many in the trade BP camp so quick to sign Choo to a mega deal? I agree it was a mistake to sign a 30+ year old BP to a big deal, but why go right back and make an even bigger deal to a 30+ year old Choo?

Bingo.

bounty37h
12-13-2013, 01:33 PM
Because Choo doesn't have an attitude like BP...I can handle overpaying a player as long as he just shuts up and does his job. Choo is one of the hardest working players in baseball. He is a team first player..BP wants the spotlight on him.

So, you basically want to trade him because you don't like him?

Ron Delancey
12-13-2013, 02:27 PM
No... I feel he is a cancer to our team that worries more about his image than playing baseball..

He tries to look good rather than just getting the job done. The way he watches the ball after he hits and taps his helmet on a hit instead of busting it down the line drives me crazy. Triples have turned into doubles and doubles have turned into singles bc of his lack of hustle. Also, and don't get me wrong, the man is an unreal defensive player, but the way he catches pop ups behind his head...the way he doesn't step and throw to first base...the way he turns double-plays (this has cost us)..He tries to go for the flash instead of just making the play. It drives me crazy and it will catch up to him.

I love what he does for the fans. He's friendly and does a lot for them, but his play drives me crazy.

malcontent
12-13-2013, 09:15 PM
I love what he does for the fans. He's friendly and does a lot for them, but his play drives me crazy.
You probably didn't like the ESPN web gem highlight DP he pulled off where he sprawled across 2B and threw on his knees to 1B.

You know, the one where Cozart was in perfect position to make a completely unremarkable DP.

MoneyInTheBank
12-13-2013, 11:18 PM
Because Choo doesn't have an attitude like BP...I can handle overpaying a player as long as he just shuts up and does his job. Choo is one of the hardest working players in baseball. He is a team first player..BP wants the spotlight on him.

Very few people had a problem with Phillips' "attitude" when he was raking and playing GG defense. It was known as "swagger". Once his performance started tailing off, it became an "attitude".

I'm not saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do because when you have a flamboyant player like Phillips, the point where the "juice is no longer worth the squeeze" happens much sooner than a "lunch pail" kind of player.

RedRoser
12-14-2013, 12:20 PM
Ron, I agree that his lack of hustle drives me nuts! Despite that, I love BP and hope he stays with the Reds!

Ladeda
12-14-2013, 02:51 PM
We need to get rid of BP... Send him to New York for Gardner and put Choo in left field...I know it's a lot of lefties, but it seemed to work for Philadelphia a few years ago.

Sorry, I can only get on like every 2-3 weeks, so I usually make 1 monster post trying to cover a variety of topics, instead of posting 6-7 smaller posts in different threads. As usual, TLDR.


The more I think about it from the NYY perspective, no way they want to trade Gardner for BP. The problem for the Reds trading BP as everyone has mentioned, is that it does leave a hole @ 2B for the Reds and they don't have an internal solution for 2b. And no, Skip is not a solution @ 2B.

Anything the Reds do with BP would have to involve a 2nd trade somewhere along the line to fill the hole @ 2b.


First things first--- young 2B the Reds would be interested in. I choose young 2B, because they are cheaper and part of the reason to move BP is for the salary savings to help re sign guys like Latos long term.

Jose Altuve, 2B Astros.
Nick Franklin, 2B Seattle
Dustin Ackley, 2B/OF Seattle
Chris Owings, SS, Arizona
Donovan Solano, 2B, Miami
Jason Kipnis, 2B, Cleveland
DJ LeMahieu, 2B, Colorado
Scooter Gennett, 2B, Milwaukee


On that list- you can eliminate some guys right away. Gennett is the replacement for Weeks whose contract is up next year. Gennett may also be starting 2B for Milwaukee anyway. Same with LeMahieu. Kipnis was good last year and the Indians won't trade him. Arizona has high hopes for Owings (who can move to 2B) and won't trade him unless the Reds trade a pitcher in return. Solano is ok and I still think he should beat out Furcal for the starting 2B job. Altuve is probably off the table for 2 years until DEshields Jr is ready to challenge him for his spot. The Astros have traded for Fowler, have signed Feldman-- it tells me that they are trying to get incrementally better next year and wont want to move one of their best players.

We are down to Ackley and Franklin. The Mariners need a RF for sure, and an upgrade in CF if at all possible. Ackley will be tough to snag since the M's don't have a replacement @ CF if he leaves. Maybe Saunders in CF as a replacement?? idk.

Nick Franklin, 2b, M's. This is the obvious candidate to everyone because Cano has taken his starting job. He's young, just 22 years old. He's cheap and he won't be a free agent until after the 2019 season. Long term, he's a great fit for the Reds. The Reds need talented, cheap young players to fill out the roster because of a lack of $$ to spend because of big contracts to Votto, Bruce and hopefully Latos and Cueto.

Not to mention, trading for Franklin to replace BP saves the Reds $10.5mm this season and would allow the Reds to maybe sign Arroyo for pitching depth if they wish. (BP's salary is $11mm in 2014, Franklin's would be about 500K, hence $10.5mm savings)

Now that Nick Franklin is the obvious target, what would it take to trade for him? The M's want to compete-- they want a ready made MLB player to be the centerpiece of a deal, not a bunch of prospects if @ all possible.

The M's are solid @ 2b, SS, 3B and have a bunch of options for 1b, LF and DH. Zunino is a top prospect @ Catcher. The M's need help in the OF, but they won't want Ludwick and the Reds aren't trading Bruce. So no fit there.

The M's starting pitching is pretty solid. Felix, Iwakumura and one of the best pitching prospects in Walker anchor their staff. Paxton is a nice young arm, middle of rotation guy and then Ramirez. We all know the M's will be posting for Tanaka and have the cash to sign him to a big deal. The M's starting pitching, with or without Tanaka is pretty solid.

The M's bullpen. Now this is the area they need to address. I'm a little surprised they didn't go out and sign a few top middle relievers right away early in FA-- you can get them for $5mm a year. (Joe Smith for example)

The M's 2 closers last year had ERA's over 4.00. They had another reliever with 59 IP with an ERA over 5. They only had 1 sub 3.50 ERA reliever last year. The Reds by contrast had 5 guys with sub 3.50 ERA's out of the pen last year. Hoover, Chapman, LeCure, Hoover and Parra. (Marshall doesn't count since he only pitched 10 innings)

The M's bullpen is garbage and it's one area that needs to be strengthened.

I can't believe I'm typing this, but if the Reds wanted to move BP and get a cheaper, younger replacement- it would probably cost them Aroldis Chapman to get Nick Franklin in a deal. You have to give up something to get something, and Chapman is really the only fit for Seattle based upon Seattle's needs. Both teams win. The M's get a top closer for their bullpen. The Reds get their replacement @ 2B for BP. Chapman still has 3 years of control correct? So he would be pretty valuable for the M's.

The Reds then could turn around and trade BP to the Yankees for Betances (middle reliever) and another prospect or Betances and Soriano. (Soriano is only due $5mm this year, the Cubs are paying $13mm of his salary this year. Option for next year the Reds would decline)

Soriano would be a slight upgrade over Ludwick-- definitely better defensively. Soriano still has some pop as evidenced by his 34 HR's last year.

Betances would start the season in middle relief, and the Reds would promote Hoover I guess to closer. (Can't count on Broxton being healthy in time to close)


Short term.

2014. Reds save $11mm from BP. Chapman's projected ARB # is $4.6mm.
Franklin's salary will be about $500K, same with Betances. Net savings for the Reds next year, $14.6mm. (9.6mm if they ask for Soriano)

The Reds save a fair amount of money that can be utilized in a variety of ways. They can re sign Arroyo for a year, they can extend Bailey and offer him a signing bonus. They can and should extend Latos this offseason.

If they re sign Arroyo, they can move Cingrani to the pen, strengthening the bullpen to compensate for the loss of Chapman.

Short term, it's probably a slight net loss. BP should be a little better than Franklin next year, but long term Franklin should be better than BP as BP ages. Hoover @ closer should be a little worse than Chapman, but it will be close and not that big of a deal.

Betances will be worse in middle relief than Hoover was filling his spot.

The one pro next year is the additional $10-$14mm the Reds have to spend, not to mention the $18 million they will have saved in 2015, and $20mm they will have saved in 2016 from trading BP and Chapman. (Assuming Chapman would get @ least $6mm in arb 2015 and $7mm in arb in 2016)

That savings right there is enough to resign Cueto/Latos long term.


So many people look @ the Reds are only look 1 year in advance. I've been a fan since 1983, and I've seen the highs and lows. I wish the Reds would look @ teams like Oakland and Tampa and realize you can win with a limited payroll, but you have to be smart. Sometimes you have to trade good players who are in the final years of their deals if you can't resign them long term, or if they are asking for too much money.

I'd be willing to move BP and Chapman even if it meant taking a real small step backwards next year if it meant the Reds are stronger moving forward. I've been a fan since 1983, and have seen some real bad teams along the way. I want long term continued success, not short term success, followed by a long period of sucking, then good again.

Sometimes hard decisions have to be made, and the fact that the core of the Reds success, their pitching, is not signed past 2015 is worrisome. Bailey is a FA after next year. Latos, Cueto and Leake and FA's after 2015. The Reds need cash to re sign some of these guys, and those who can't be resigned because of payroll limitations will eventually need to be traded for a bounty of prospects.

Pitching is gold, you can never have enough of it. And the Reds pitchers are young relatively for Free Agency. 28,28,28 and 29 (Cueto) will be their ages for free agency. The Reds have some valuable assets, and it's important to maximize their value if they can't be re signed. The Reds have to think long term just as much as short term in their dealings.

bullseye
12-14-2013, 05:37 PM
BP is a cancer but if we lose him, we had better replace his .260 bat with something better. H-Rod is not going to cut it in the majors yet. I think Dat Dude will respond better to a new manager than most think, though. He has been very quiet this off season. Wish he had been last off season.

Ron Delancey
12-17-2013, 11:49 AM
You probably didn't like the ESPN web gem highlight DP he pulled off where he sprawled across 2B and threw on his knees to 1B.

You know, the one where Cozart was in perfect position to make a completely unremarkable DP.

Or the play where the guy slid into his butt? Funny, sure, but he had plenty of time to turn his body around and put an actual tag on the guy..Plus I think that guy was safe anyway!

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 11:58 AM
I keep reading where BP is a cancer and BP is this and that. What I know is that BP is the best defensive 2nd basemen in the NL, maybe all of baseball right now, I KNOW he drove in 100+ runs last season. I think we sometimes believe what a bunch of "writers" who "guess" most of the time think. Walt isn't stupid, you don't give up that quality of defense and run producer without getting equal in return. TTTTB...come opening day, Brandon will be at second for the Reds and hitting second in the lineup.

indyscott
12-17-2013, 12:04 PM
I keep reading where BP is a cancer and BP is this and that. What I know is that BP is the best defensive 2nd basemen in the NL, maybe all of baseball right now, I KNOW he drove in 100+ runs last season. I think we sometimes believe what a bunch of "writers" who "guess" most of the time think. Walt isn't stupid, you don't give up that quality of defense and run producer without getting equal in return. TTTTB...come opening day, Brandon will be at second for the Reds and hitting second in the lineup.
Using RBIs isnt a good angle

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 12:29 PM
Using RBIs isnt a good angle

Why not? What exactly is the name of the game? Score runs. His JOB this past season was to drive in runs, he drove in over 100, how many other second basemen drove in that many runs. All the other numbers are for fantasy players, when it is all said and done, the objective of a hitter is to plate runs, either himself or those on base. That is Votto's problem, hitting is to drive in runs, his rbi production wasn't where it should be.

Oh and add to that the runs he saved while playing second, I would put him as the 3rd most important player right now on this team. MY only issue with Brandon isn't Brandon's fault, it was the stupidity of the Reds to give him a six year deal. At most I would have gone 4, pay him more money for less years, but this whole "cancer" and other stuff I don't buy and his production at the plate and in the field can't be questioned.

indyscott
12-17-2013, 12:30 PM
Why not? What exactly is the name of the game? Score runs. His JOB this past season was to drive in runs, he drove in over 100, how many other second basemen drove in that many runs. All the other numbers are for fantasy players, when it is all said and done, the objective of a hitter is to plate runs, either himself or those on base. That is Votto's problem, hitting is to drive in runs, his rbi production wasn't where it should be.

How many other 2nd baseman batted cleanup and had 2 of the top OBP guys hitting ahead of him?

Actually RBIs is a number for fantasy players.

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 01:10 PM
How many other 2nd baseman batted cleanup and had 2 of the top OBP guys hitting ahead of him?

Actually RBIs is a number for fantasy players.

And he did his job, they got on base and he drove them in. Unless Walt can find someone to play second and generate the performance level that Brandon did last year and probably will for at least another couple of seasons, I see no reason in trading him.

This whole idea that his contract somehow "hinders" the Reds in adding talent or extending deals for players already here is laughable, this is a team making money and will only increase their wealth in coming seasons.

indyscott
12-17-2013, 01:12 PM
And he did his job, they got on base and he drove them in. Unless Walt can find someone to play second and generate the performance level that Brandon did last year and probably will for at least another couple of seasons, I see no reason in trading him.

This whole idea that his contract somehow "hinders" the Reds in adding talent or extending deals for players already here is laughable, this is a team making money and will only increase their wealth in coming seasons.His numbers have spiraled down drastically the last 2 seasons. There is a reason its been hard, almost impossible to move him. If you think he is going to be serviceable 2 years from now, you are kidding yourself

indyscott
12-17-2013, 01:17 PM
Johnny Fan
Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Phillips to KC???
Exactly "whom" would take on the contract of Brandon? It's a huge overpayment on a player on the downside of his career? The ONLY way I see us dealing Brandon is in exchange for another "bad contract" aka Uggla and really who wants that? The Reds are stuck with Brandon, and we have to hope that new leadership in the managers office will correct the issues.


When did your tune change?

Halfway between
12-17-2013, 01:52 PM
Very few people had a problem with Phillips' "attitude" when he was raking and playing GG defense. It was known as "swagger". Once his performance started tailing off, it became an "attitude".

I'm not saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do because when you have a flamboyant player like Phillips, the point where the "juice is no longer worth the squeeze" happens much sooner than a "lunch pail" kind of player.

That's it. Love him when he's on top but hate him on the way down. Phillips loves to play the game and gives it what he's got. When he comes up short, it's not quite as adorable.

Walt gave him too much money and too many years. It happens. GM's can be forgiven when they forget to check the calendar, I suppose. It was inevitable...but just seems to come a little too soon.

Halfway between
12-17-2013, 01:56 PM
Johnny Fan
Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Phillips to KC???
Exactly "whom" would take on the contract of Brandon? It's a huge overpayment on a player on the downside of his career? The ONLY way I see us dealing Brandon is in exchange for another "bad contract" aka Uggla and really who wants that? The Reds are stuck with Brandon, and we have to hope that new leadership in the managers office will correct the issues.


When did your tune change?

It was a nice head fake by Walt to blame this on a contract dispute while he attempts to offload. But other GM's know how to read stats sheets too. He's a Reds problem and not the worst one out there. Hopefully, Brandon's decline will be as gracious as possible.

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 02:00 PM
His numbers have spiraled down drastically the last 2 seasons. There is a reason its been hard, almost impossible to move him. If you think he is going to be serviceable 2 years from now, you are kidding yourself

Over the past two years he has hit in how many different slots and has had a number of pretty serious injuries that due in part to his stubborness and Dusty were not allowed to heal properly and no player is going to produce at a high level when physically hurt.

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 02:02 PM
Johnny Fan
Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Phillips to KC???
Exactly "whom" would take on the contract of Brandon? It's a huge overpayment on a player on the downside of his career? The ONLY way I see us dealing Brandon is in exchange for another "bad contract" aka Uggla and really who wants that? The Reds are stuck with Brandon, and we have to hope that new leadership in the managers office will correct the issues.


When did your tune change?

I said the Reds gave Brandon a bad contract for them, not him. He was given to many years. I would have given him say a 4 year $60 million dollar deal at most, it's the years that is the killer on his contract not the monies. I believe Brandon has probably two more quality years in him before he begins to seriously decline, of which I think there is still a few years on that deal...

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 02:03 PM
That's it. Love him when he's on top but hate him on the way down. Phillips loves to play the game and gives it what he's got. When he comes up short, it's not quite as adorable.

Walt gave him too much money and too many years. It happens. GM's can be forgiven when they forget to check the calendar, I suppose. It was inevitable...but just seems to come a little too soon.

I really don't think Walt had much say in it, I think that deal came down from Bob...

indyscott
12-17-2013, 02:07 PM
I said the Reds gave Brandon a bad contract for them, not him. He was given to many years. I would have given him say a 4 year $60 million dollar deal at most, it's the years that is the killer on his contract not the monies. I believe Brandon has probably two more quality years in him before he begins to seriously decline, of which I think there is still a few years on that deal...

Well I have no idea where you get that conclusion from because his on the field performance says differently

Ron Delancey
12-17-2013, 02:15 PM
I'm tired of his "injury" being an excuse for his production. If he's hurt, he's hurt and shouldn't be playing. If he's in the game, there is no reason to say "well, he gets a pass because he's got an injured wrist or hamstring"... Suck it up and perform or go on the DL

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 02:16 PM
Well I have no idea where you get that conclusion from because his on the field performance says differently

I would guess it lays in the way we view quality. I believe over the next two seasons his overall numbers will still have him as one of the top 3-4 2nd basemen in the NL, I am guessing you don't.

indyscott
12-17-2013, 02:20 PM
I would guess it lays in the way we view quality. I believe over the next two seasons his overall numbers will still have him as one of the top 3-4 2nd basemen in the NL, I am guessing you don't.He already may not be. Let me ask you this. DO you think Allen Craig is better than Joey Votto?

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 02:27 PM
He already may not be. Let me ask you this. DO you think Allen Craig is better than Joey Votto?

Better? not better, but did more for his team last year then Votto did for the Reds. I think Votto's performance last season was in part a reflection of a lack of direction from his manager on his role and the injury issue.

As for Brandon, which other 2nd basemen in the NL going into this season would you rather have?

indyscott
12-17-2013, 02:32 PM
Better? not better, but did more for his team last year then Votto did for the Reds. I think Votto's performance last season was in part a reflection of a lack of direction from his manager on his role and the injury issue.

As for Brandon, which other 2nd basemen in the NL going into this season would you rather have?Wow. You really over use the injury excuse

Here is my list of 2B I would rather have. Carpenter (even though they are moving him to 3rd) Gyorko, Utley, Scutaro, and Murphy. Those are all guys that had a better OPS than BP last year. I left out Neil Walker. BP was 7th in OPS and spiraling downwards. I dont see this ending pretty

Ron Delancey
12-17-2013, 02:35 PM
It's not a question about a better 2nd baseman..It's whether we can get a good outfielder for him. Losing Choo is gonna kill us, but if we can find a nice, young replacement for him, like Gardner, I would willing to deal with a fill-in 2nd baseman for this season. I think Gardner would help this team more than BP would this year. We aren't going to have a leadoff hitter of center fielder..I don't know if Billy can be relied on this season to put up quality numbers while playing great defense.

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 02:39 PM
Wow. You really over use the injury excuse

Here is my list of 2B I would rather have. Carpenter (even though they are moving him to 3rd) Gyorko, Utley, Scutaro, and Murphy. Those are all guys that had a better OPS than BP last year. I left out Neil Walker. BP was 7th in OPS and spiraling downwards. I dont see this ending pretty

When Votto himself points to it as still not 100% I am willing to take his word at you...

Utley? Really?

indyscott
12-17-2013, 02:43 PM
When Votto himself points to it as still not 100% I am willing to take his word at you...

Utley? Really?

Player A. .284 .348 .475 .823

Player B. .261 .310 .396 .706

You decide

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 02:59 PM
Player A. .284 .348 .475 .823

Player B. .261 .310 .396 .706

You decide

the number that matters to me is RBI's, when the objective of the game is to drive in runs, that is the number I look at. I also look at the performance defensivly and right now I don't see anyone as good as Brandon is in the field. Again our opinion is based in what we value and we value different numbers.

indyscott
12-17-2013, 03:01 PM
the number that matters to me is RBI's, when the objective of the game is to drive in runs, that is the number I look at. I also look at the performance defensivly and right now I don't see anyone as good as Brandon is in the field. Again our opinion is based in what we value and we value different numbers.
Jesus. Forget it. I cant discuss something with someone using RBIs as a stat that overdoes all

indyscott
12-17-2013, 03:04 PM
Jon Jay > Choo according to Johnny Fan

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 03:06 PM
Chase is 35 years old, over past 4 years has only avg 108 games a season with just avgerging 55 RBI's per season and is owed 12.5 million in 2014 (age 36) and 12.5 million in 2015 (age 37) those are numbers I don't like nor find better then Brandon.

indyscott
12-17-2013, 03:09 PM
Chase is 35 years old, over past 4 years has only avg 108 games a season with just avgerging 55 RBI's per season and is owed 12.5 million in 2014 (age 36) and 12.5 million in 2015 (age 37) those are numbers I don't like nor find better then Brandon.So NOW you want to use salaries? He is 35 and is putting up better number than BP.

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 03:18 PM
So NOW you want to use salaries? He is 35 and is putting up better number than BP.

I would disagree he is not, I showed his games per year are fewer and his RBI's are fewer, those two numbers I care about. I don't care what Brandon's batting avg is his obp or his slg and so on given that was NOT what his role was. NOW if the Reds remove him from the 4 spot and put him in a slot that requires those numbers to be important then I will care, until then I won't.

indyscott
12-17-2013, 03:21 PM
I would disagree he is not, I showed his games per year are fewer and his RBI's are fewer, those two numbers I care about. I don't care what Brandon's batting avg is his obp or his slg and so on given that was NOT what his role was. NOW if the Reds remove him from the 4 spot and put him in a slot that requires those numbers to be important then I will care, until then I won't.

So you think Jon Jay was more valuable than Choo last year right?

Johnny Fan
12-17-2013, 03:33 PM
So you think Jon Jay was more valuable than Choo last year right?

I would say Yes. Choo was very important to the Reds, but did his addition lead the Reds to more wins? Farther in the playoffs?

indyscott
12-17-2013, 03:34 PM
I would say Yes. Choo was very important to the Reds, but did his addition lead the Reds to more wins? Farther in the playoffs?

OK. I give.

Ron Delancey
12-17-2013, 06:27 PM
So having RBI as the deciding factor, we'd rather have Adam Dunn than Joey votto?

RedlegJake
12-18-2013, 10:23 AM
I would say Yes. Choo was very important to the Reds, but did his addition lead the Reds to more wins? Farther in the playoffs?

This simply blows any credence you had out of the water. Your RBI argument further distances your argument from reality.

Lewdog
12-18-2013, 12:00 PM
The Yankees signed Brian Roberts, the chance of Phillips being traded shrinks more every day.

Ron Delancey
12-18-2013, 01:12 PM
I don't think Brian Roberts will be their everyday 2nd baseman, but I agree. I think the chances of trading BP are getting thin.

Johnny Fan
12-18-2013, 02:25 PM
This simply blows any credence you had out of the water. Your RBI argument further distances your argument from reality.

Sorry but while Choo was a nice addition, it didn't advance the ball club any did it? So exactly how "valuable" was he?

When scoring runs is the sole objective of the offense, and Brandon was put into a positoin with that being his sole objective offensivly for the Reds last year, yes RBI's mean more.

indyscott
12-18-2013, 02:36 PM
Sorry but while Choo was a nice addition, it didn't advance the ball club any did it? So exactly how "valuable" was he?

When scoring runs is the sole objective of the offense, and Brandon was put into a positoin with that being his sole objective offensivly for the Reds last year, yes RBI's mean more.
Just stop

Johnny Fan
12-18-2013, 02:59 PM
Just stop

We view the game differently and what is important, why is that wrong?

indyscott
12-18-2013, 03:33 PM
We view the game differently and what is important, why is that wrong?

You view the game differently than someone who understands the game. Seriously, go ask any person who is knowledgeable about the game and ask them if Choo is better than Jay

Johnny Fan
12-18-2013, 04:30 PM
You view the game differently than someone who understands the game. Seriously, go ask any person who is knowledgeable about the game and ask them if Choo is better than Jay

You said more valuable, and to their team, I would say Jay was more valuable to the Cards then Choo was to the Reds. Also, Choo's value isn't what he or his manager think it is cause he is still unemployed.

indyscott
12-18-2013, 04:49 PM
You said more valuable, and to their team, I would say Jay was more valuable to the Cards then Choo was to the Reds. Also, Choo's value isn't what he or his manager think it is cause he is still unemployed.
Wow. Just wow. Serious question. How old are you?

Johnny Fan
12-18-2013, 06:14 PM
Wow. Just wow. Serious question. How old are you?

49

CoachBombay
12-18-2013, 06:18 PM
If Jay was thought of as valuable for the cardinals they wouldnt have replaced him with bourjos