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Wishbone C
02-19-2014, 03:07 PM
Well now that what many of us thought would happen actually did happen (Bailey extension) time to take a look at what Walt did this offseason and give him a grade.

The pertinent info:

- We lost Choo and we will without question miss his OBP. But the contract he got from Texas would have proven to be more of an overall detriment than his OBP skills could have offset over the long haul. I believe the call to let him walk in order to extend Bailey (& I also believe Latos eventually) was an overall plus.

- The Skip deal strikes me as solid if unspectacular. It has the air of being one of those moves you look back on at the end of the season and say "that was a key under the radar type move."

- The Brayan deal also seems like one of those moves that lacks in the WOW department but could be key as well. He's insurance in case Meso struggles against RHP. That's not insignificant.

- We got good value back for Hannigan. I do believe it was time to move him and let Meso have his shot. So the timing of the move was..well...timely.

- Locking up Bailey to a long term deal that is favorable is key. We now have him under club control to use for the full length of the contract or to trade for other assets in the future if need be. Either way the important part is he isn't going to walk with nothing to show for it but a comp pick. That's huge.

With all that said I give Walt a rock solid B+.

What say you?

Wishbone C
02-19-2014, 03:24 PM
BTW the logical question becomes: What would it have taken for Walt to get an A+?

In my mind, to find a way to retain Choo under terms that wouldn't be a long term detriment to the club (admittedly next to impossible in the free agent market). And bring a big middle of the order bat, corner outfielder type under favorable terms (think Cory Hart). As well as extend Bailey, trade Hannigan for good value etc.

A tall order if not impossible no doubt. But we're talking about an A+ so I feel the requirements should be demanding.

Gapper
02-19-2014, 03:40 PM
I think you have to break the grade down into two parts.....

Off season grade based on 2014 Season

Off season grade based on 2014 and into the future

When broken out, I think Walt gets a C maybe C- on a grade based solely on the 2014 Season. When you look into the future the grade gets much better. Getting Bailey at what I consider a "Fair" rate, and not being tempted to pay Choo more than he likely will produce is a huge win for Walt. The Hanigan trade extracted good value I believe as well. I think Holmberg closes the gap on our bottom heavy farm system a bit. Walt has extended the window for the Reds with these deals. I'd give Walt a B, B+ when considering how this offseason has set up the Reds going into the future.

No pants Mcgee
02-20-2014, 09:56 PM
Its tough to put a letter grade to this offseason, as most of the issues with it are a lack of activity. Had the Reds been able to bring in a better backup plan to Hamilton and a platoon player for Ludwick I would give it an A. Walt tried in Sizemore but was unable to seal the deal.

As far as what I like though...
-The Homer Bailey deal. Gives the Reds a good rotation past this season, and creates flexibility in terms of signing the guys whos contracts are up after 2015. Also creates the possibility of dealing a SP to fill a void in the lineup.
-The Hanigan trade. We got a solid pitching prospect, plus it was time to see what Mesoraco can do with everyday at bats.
-SP depth. They didn't bring in any big names, but they are much better equipped to deal with injuries in the rotation than they were a season ago. A combination of young guys with upside and vets who may be on their last legs, but still could fill in for a short time.
-Im also happy we didn't see a big move just for the sake of a big move. I thought for sure BP would be gone, but the Reds didn't get value for him so I give them credit for not moving him...or anyone else for that matter.

mth123
02-21-2014, 01:49 AM
D-.

Drugs Delaney
02-21-2014, 03:01 AM
Solid B. Locking Bailey up was big.

I've mentioned this before, but I almost feel like we don't know where the biggest hole is yet. Can Frazier have a bounce back year or has the league figured him out? Does Ludwick have anything left in the tank? Is Billy ready for the bigs? Can Mesoraco be a solid #6 or 7 hitter with the comfort of being the every day C?

Once Walt gets the answers to these questions, he can hopefully go out and get the right bat at the right position sometime before the AS break.

My gut feeling is that Hamilton, Mesoraco and Cozart hit a bit more than people are expecting but that Ludwick struggles and we have to look for an everyday LF.

If you are going to knock Walt, I think you have to look back at his moves prior to last season with Broxton, Phillips and Ludwick. Those deserve a D or F and those are what put us in a financial bind now. Not anything he did this offseason.

mth123
02-21-2014, 06:15 AM
Solid B. Locking Bailey up was big.

I've mentioned this before, but I almost feel like we don't know where the biggest hole is yet. Can Frazier have a bounce back year or has the league figured him out? Does Ludwick have anything left in the tank? Is Billy ready for the bigs? Can Mesoraco be a solid #6 or 7 hitter with the comfort of being the every day C?

Once Walt gets the answers to these questions, he can hopefully go out and get the right bat at the right position sometime before the AS break.

My gut feeling is that Hamilton, Mesoraco and Cozart hit a bit more than people are expecting but that Ludwick struggles and we have to look for an everyday LF.

If you are going to knock Walt, I think you have to look back at his moves prior to last season with Broxton, Phillips and Ludwick. Those deserve a D or F and those are what put us in a financial bind now. Not anything he did this offseason.

He gets a D- precisely for going into the season without knowing so many answers. You get a good grade by answering questions. A poor grade stems from leaving them unanswered and hoping. They seem locked in with Phillips, Frazier and Ludwick (all huge questions IMO), that means they should have pursued more certainty behind the plate, CF and SS. Forcing more uncertainty seems the exact opposite of the right plan IMO.

Assembly Hall
02-21-2014, 06:29 AM
C-.

Locking up Bailey is what any decent GM would have done.

The Hannigan trade was a good one.

Skip was a good pick up.

I like giving Billy a chance, but left field wasn't addressed yet again. We have 3 guys we can depend on in Votto, Bruce, and Phillips. The other 5 everyday players we have no idea about. We just speculate and hope the pitching carries us.

RedsBrick
02-21-2014, 08:29 AM
I thought Walt deserved an A+ for the Choo pick up last year, but it didn't really pan out.

Tough to say on these kinds of things until they play the games.

Part of my point surrounds Hamilton. What if he competes for Rookie of the Year? Then Walt should be given an A+ for not finding someone in the off-season to start instead of him. On the other hand, what if he totally tanks? Then I guess the opposite applies.

IMO, Walt deserves a B or higher for changing managers.

No pants Mcgee
02-21-2014, 10:44 AM
He gets a D- precisely for going into the season without knowing so many answers. You get a good grade by answering questions. A poor grade stems from leaving them unanswered and hoping. They seem locked in with Phillips, Frazier and Ludwick (all huge questions IMO), that means they should have pursued more certainty behind the plate, CF and SS. Forcing more uncertainty seems the exact opposite of the right plan IMO.

I can't disagree with your logic here, but I do struggle with holding that against Walt. As a team a year ago that was second tier we were all waiting for the big change to push the Reds into that first tier. Without that move it is tough to call the offseason a success.

As much as I would have loved to see an 800 OPS bat added to the lineup, where do you find one? And if you do does that mean no Homer Bailey signing? Trade Robert Stephenson? Give up a draft pick for another wild card in Nelson Cruz? Without me having a good answer to that I cannot hold it against Walt. If anything I am happy he did not overspend on a marginal 3B/LF upgrade that leaves the team hurting money wise.

Now if you want to look at some of walts moves from past years I give him a worse grade. The Broxton deal, Phillips deal, etc. did handicap the Reds a bit this offseason, and that is on Walt. Judging just by November until now I think he has done a good job of getting some under the radar guys in here who can help the team. And if the Reds feel that this lineup can improve with what they have, and put the money toward pitching I'm ok with that. Time will tell if its the correct decision.

Kilgore_Trout
02-21-2014, 12:57 PM
I'd say Walt deserves a grade in the C+ to B- range.

Losing Choo was inevitable. Seeing the Reds pop up in possible trades with the Yankees for Gardner and a shot-in-the dark signing of Sizemore added an element of intrigue, but I never really saw either as a real possibility. It seems rumors like this happen all the time, so I don't see a reason to get too optimistic when they inevitably come up.

I like the Hanigan trade (Holmberg is a very solid depth/future signing). I thought giving Price the manager job was a good decision. Schumaker will add a much needed element off the bench. Signing Bailey to an extension when almost NOBODY thought it to be possible is what saves the offseason for me.

In the end, I hold the view that the offseason could have been much worse.

Chuckie
02-21-2014, 05:36 PM
B+

(I knew there was no chance we were keeping Choo and I was pessimistic about a LTC for Bailey ... which helps raise my grade considerably.)

mth123
02-22-2014, 09:18 AM
I can't disagree with your logic here, but I do struggle with holding that against Walt. As a team a year ago that was second tier we were all waiting for the big change to push the Reds into that first tier. Without that move it is tough to call the offseason a success.

As much as I would have loved to see an 800 OPS bat added to the lineup, where do you find one? And if you do does that mean no Homer Bailey signing? Trade Robert Stephenson? Give up a draft pick for another wild card in Nelson Cruz? Without me having a good answer to that I cannot hold it against Walt. If anything I am happy he did not overspend on a marginal 3B/LF upgrade that leaves the team hurting money wise.

Now if you want to look at some of walts moves from past years I give him a worse grade. The Broxton deal, Phillips deal, etc. did handicap the Reds a bit this offseason, and that is on Walt. Judging just by November until now I think he has done a good job of getting some under the radar guys in here who can help the team. And if the Reds feel that this lineup can improve with what they have, and put the money toward pitching I'm ok with that. Time will tell if its the correct decision.

A better platoon partner for Mesoraco would have made that position an offensive force (Salty, AJ, even Navarro affordable and available). Mes is toast against RHP so far. Just about any LH bat that is a decent part time hitter against RHP who could have platooned with Ludwick or Frazier would have made experimenting with Billy more acceptable. Eric Chavez and Kelly Johnson were two that come to mind. No bank breakers needed, but solidifying moves. Instead we get a guy who should be insurance at AAA as the second catcher and Skippy who serves as a UI but can't play SS or 3B.

I'd raise the grade a half a letter if they have the guts to jettison Hannahan at the end of spring.

WAKEUP
02-22-2014, 10:06 AM
If Walt doesn't get an F or a D for this off-season, then there is no such thing as a D or F in grading.

The Reds got worse, got older, got more expensive.

Their best move was locking up a talented .500 career pitcher to a huge contract that could hamper a mid-market franchise. Not exactly something to get excited about.

They lost Choo, one of the only two hitters they could count on to do the most important thing in baseball - not make outs at the plate. His replacement won't be close. He could steal 140 bases and he wouldn't replicate Choo's production.

I'd give Walt a D+ with the possibility of moving to a C+ if the Bailey contract works out and the possibility of moving to an F- if the Bailey contract doesn't.

On that note - Walt needs to learn how to lock up players before their 5th and 6th seasons.

The Reds are paying two players Votto and Bailey more than double what they should, because Walt has no clue what he is doing.

villain612
02-22-2014, 12:13 PM
I'd say Walt deserves a grade in the C+ to B- range.

Losing Choo was inevitable. Seeing the Reds pop up in possible trades with the Yankees for Gardner and a shot-in-the dark signing of Sizemore added an element of intrigue, but I never really saw either as a real possibility. It seems rumors like this happen all the time, so I don't see a reason to get too optimistic when they inevitably come up.

I like the Hanigan trade (Holmberg is a very solid depth/future signing). I thought giving Price the manager job was a good decision. Schumaker will add a much needed element off the bench. Signing Bailey to an extension when almost NOBODY thought it to be possible is what saves the offseason for me.

In the end, I hold the view that the offseason could have been much worse.



This.

I honestly don't see what deals were out there that Walt could have pulled off without getting hosed. Should we have traded Bailey for Gardner? No.

I too was disappointed by the lack of moves but at the end of the day, I think Walt played his cards smartly and didn't do a bad deal just for the sake of doing a deal.

Signing Homer Bailey longterm > Signing Choo longterm (at that price)

villain612
02-22-2014, 12:17 PM
Their best move was locking up a talented .500 career pitcher to a huge contract that could hamper a mid-market franchise. Not exactly something to get excited about.


People still look at W-L records when judging a pitcher?




They lost Choo, one of the only two hitters they could count on to do the most important thing in baseball - not make outs at the plate. His replacement won't be close. He could steal 140 bases and he wouldn't replicate Choo's production.

Choo is 31, will turn 32 in July. You think the Reds should've signed him at 7 years, $130 million? You criticize the Homer Bailey signing, saying it could "hamper a mid-market franchise" but you criticize them for not keeping Choo, who is 4 years older?

I like Choo a lot and am sad to see him go. But at that price, I will gladly let him go.

WAKEUP
02-22-2014, 07:45 PM
People still look at W-L records when judging a pitcher?




Choo is 31, will turn 32 in July. You think the Reds should've signed him at 7 years, $130 million? You criticize the Homer Bailey signing, saying it could "hamper a mid-market franchise" but you criticize them for not keeping Choo, who is 4 years older?

I like Choo a lot and am sad to see him go. But at that price, I will gladly let him go.

No, that's not what I said. You just have a reading problem.

SunDeck
02-23-2014, 09:10 AM
I think locking up Bailey was good. Saying he's a .500 career pitcher is inaccurate; his career is not over. What I've seen is steady improvement from a kid who was rushed to the big league club, who has made steady improvement, who has the physical attributes and proven through big games that he can be a very good pitcher over the long haul.

I am most concerned with LF and CF. Ludwick is a complete guess as far as I can tell, and I have serious doubts that a kid who is no bigger than my teenager can be the solid anchor they need in the OF. If it comes down to trading OBP for being rock solid up the middle, I'll prefer defense, but I also understand the difficulty they face in addressing both with one player. You take your best shot, which is what they seem to be doing with Hamilton.

I'll give them a B for dealing with the outfield and lead off uncertainties by not blowing a huge amount of money on Choo and instead focusing on Bailey. However, these off season moves necessitate serious consideration of what happens between opening day and July. If Hamilton and Ludwick don't produce AND the Reds don't make moves to address this, then the off season inactivity doesn't make sense, and I'll consider it a D, at best.

villain612
02-23-2014, 01:44 PM
No, that's not what I said. You just have a reading problem.

Okay...if you weren't advocating them signing Choo, then why even bring it up in the "offseason grades" thread? There's no reason to bring it up unless you disagreed with them letting him go (unless there's a deal out there you think they should've made). If you're of the mind that it was the right move to NOT sign him at 7/130, then that actually should reflect positive on your grading, as the Reds avoided overpaying longterm for a 31 year old outfielder.

And again, using W-L to judge a pitcher?
The Bailey deal is somewhat of a risk (all longterms are) but even if he doesn't improve any more and just puts up 2012/2013 type numbers for the majority of that contract, then I think the Reds come out ahead.

yadontSabo
02-23-2014, 05:25 PM
If Walt doesn't get an F or a D for this off-season, then there is no such thing as a D or F in grading.

The Reds got worse, got older, got more expensive.

Their best move was locking up a talented .500 career pitcher to a huge contract that could hamper a mid-market franchise. Not exactly something to get excited about.

They lost Choo, one of the only two hitters they could count on to do the most important thing in baseball - not make outs at the plate. His replacement won't be close. He could steal 140 bases and he wouldn't replicate Choo's production.

I'd give Walt a D+ with the possibility of moving to a C+ if the Bailey contract works out and the possibility of moving to an F- if the Bailey contract doesn't.

On that note - Walt needs to learn how to lock up players before their 5th and 6th seasons.

The Reds are paying two players Votto and Bailey more than double what they should, because Walt has no clue what he is doing.

Who does Walt need to lock up RIGHT NOW to a LTC to avoid the apparent "boneheadedness" of signing deals like Bruce and Votto's?

Lewdog
02-23-2014, 06:29 PM
I'm feeling 'eh' about the off season. They signed Bailey to an extension, but pretty much everything after that did not improve the team. Nelson Cruz only got an $8 mil contract from the Orioles.