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View Full Version : Joey Votto on 'Intentional Talk' Yesterday



jordan_tm
04-09-2014, 01:37 PM
Can't say that I've ever seen Joey quite like this before. Entertaining, nonetheless...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asf5Exg94NI

suiz
04-09-2014, 03:46 PM
Cooooooool!

Tracy Jones
04-09-2014, 07:23 PM
You know what would be great?

If Votto started driving the ball again like he was before that fateful slide into 3rd base in early July 2012.

That would make me really happy.

klw
04-09-2014, 08:01 PM
Great! I wish there were a thousand gif's of this.

jfleur87
04-09-2014, 08:48 PM
You know what would be great?

If Votto started driving the ball again like he was before that fateful slide into 3rd base in early July 2012.

That would make me really happy.

You must be fun at parties.

Joey will be Joey. Think we have to accept it. He hit 24 HRs in a down year (if you only consider RBIs in your estimation). Not many players will hit over 30 this year. Only 3 NL players hit 30 or more in 2013.

Only thing I want Joey to do is be more aggressive in RBI situations (i.e., today with Billy on 3rd to start the game).

Tracy Jones
04-10-2014, 05:52 PM
You must be fun at parties.

Joey will be Joey. Think we have to accept it. He hit 24 HRs in a down year (if you only consider RBIs in your estimation). Not many players will hit over 30 this year. Only 3 NL players hit 30 or more in 2013.

Only thing I want Joey to do is be more aggressive in RBI situations (i.e., today with Billy on 3rd to start the game).

Fun at parties? Talking about Votto not being what he was pre-injury or should be considering his contract is some sort of buzzkill to you?

Ok.

You're right about the RBI situations. He's paid to be a middle of the order hammer in this lineup, and frankly ever since he hurt his knee, he hasn't been that.

Kai Slater
04-10-2014, 07:16 PM
That was pretty funny there. I know Joey was coming out of his shell a bit with his call-in spots on WLW, but this takes it to another level. It looks like he's relaxed and having fun with the game. Here's to a great season from Joey.

Larry Schuler
04-10-2014, 07:20 PM
He's Mark Grace in a Reds uniform.

He's John Olerud with an even harder head.

He's Hal Morris in a Mountie uniform.

He's James Lonely holding a $6 latte.

He's Sean Casey with a weaker hug.

He's Lyle Overbay from over the Great Lakes bay.

He's the anti-Chris Denorfia.

He's a punching judy hitter who dreamt he was an MVP and he loved it.

KYExtemper
04-10-2014, 07:47 PM
There isn't a lot of "protection" for Joey in the current lineup either. Bruce shows signs of consistency from time to time behind him, but struggles against left handed pitching and Brandon Phillips has had some struggles as well. Having a leadoff guy not getting on base consistently is also giving him problems in getting solid pitches to hit.

Tracy Jones
04-10-2014, 09:47 PM
He's Mark Grace in a Reds uniform.

He's John Olerud with an even harder head.

He's Hal Morris in a Mountie uniform.

He's James Lonely holding a $6 latte.

He's Sean Casey with a weaker hug.

He's Lyle Overbay from over the Great Lakes bay.

He's the anti-Chris Denorfia.

He's a punching judy hitter who dreamt he was an MVP and he loved it.

The important word is in bold. Justin Morneau was once an MVP too.

Look, Votto is obviously still a very good player in his current form. However, he's also currently not the player the Reds payed for 2 years ago, or the player the Reds need him to be with the way the team is currently constructed.

Do you think they'd have the inconsistencies they have on offense if Votto was say...like Miguel Cabrera? Or what Votto was from 2010-mid 2012? I don't.

He's not paid to merely get on base. He's paid to slug .550-.600, and that's what this lineup needs him to do in order to be consistent and successful.

Don Votto
04-10-2014, 10:28 PM
Look, I am sure someone on here will give me and I guess Tracy Jones (love your show) some stats about OPS, rc, WAR, OPS++ squared--or some other inane Saber stat that is how we ogre-like fans cannot appreciate or love Votto... but the fact is, Tracy is right.

I appreciate Votto and the player he is--but baseball history is replete with GREAT players who lose their power, lose their slugging--whether it is injuries, or just age, or something in the water--pre 1998--this was the inevitable fate of players--

A few cases in point....
I was a kid that grew up in the 1980's I loved watching Mattingly, Will Clark, Dale Murphy, Eric Davis, (but Lord some of the mid 1980's Cincinnati teams with studs like Wayne Krenchiki, Paul Householder, Duane Walker, and Nick Esasky were sometimes UNBEARABLE to stomach.--(WITH THE EXCEPTION OF 1986 TRACY JONES, of course.)

But, anyways, I am getting off topic...
If you would have told me in 1987 that a 26 year-old Don Mattingly would NEVER hit more than 25 home runs in a season again or NEVER have a slugging percentage higher than .828, (after 3 straight .300+, 30hr, 100rbi seasons--I would have laughed all day long--

If you would have told me in 1987 that a 31 year old Dale Murphy (who in the previous six years averaged .290, 35+, 100+ RBI (1986 sucked) AND a 2 time MVP) would fail to hit 25 home runs, and only once approach a .270 seasonal batting average for the rest of his career --I would have laughed and mocked you all day long.

If you would have told me in 1989 that a 29 year old Eric Davis (coming off a three year span where he averaged 33 home runs, 33 stolen bases, 98 rbis and around a .285 average per season) would play sporadically for the rest of his career--have a few bright moments, but never come close to the player he was at 27-28-29, I would have laughed all day long.

If you would have told me in 1991 that a 27 year old Will Clark (coming off a five year span where he averaged 25 hr's 100+ rbi's, and had an OPS+ average score of 150) would, for the remainder of his career hit 20+ home runs only two more times, I would have laughed and mocked you all day long.

The point being-- there is precedent for a player to hit a high point in his mid-late 20's, and have a solid career afterwards, but never attain their old form. However, the fan romanticizes and believes that the player that performed those incredible feats is going to rekindle something, when perhaps--that part of their game is gone.

I am not writing Votto off--but, I am just saying--I have seen it happen too many times before--that's all.

RedTeamGo!
04-11-2014, 07:21 AM
Look, I am sure someone on here will give me and I guess Tracy Jones (love your show) some stats about OPS, rc, WAR, OPS++ squared--or some other inane Saber stat that is how we ogre-like fans cannot appreciate or love Votto... but the fact is, Tracy is right.



"Look, I am sure someone will prove us wrong with facts, but the fact is Tracy is right...because RBI!!"

CoachBombay
04-11-2014, 09:13 AM
You do realize that if Votto were to replicate the numbers he had last year for the remainder of his contract he would go down as the greatest offensive player the Reds have ever had and be a first ballot hall of famer? Maybe we should focus on the 4-5 guys on the roster that cant hit. You can say what you want about Votto not driving in runs not doing this not doing that. But he still hit something like .290 with runners in scoring position last year in his "down year" And if you were a pitcher, you know the Reds lineup is weak, so you are not going to let Votto beat you and you arent going to give him much to hit

Don Votto
04-11-2014, 11:17 AM
RedTeamGo! and CoachBombay--

I am not sure if you two actually read my entire post--I do realize it was a bit lengthy, but the key point I was attempting to make is that there are careers when a great hitter or a slugger (for whatever reason) loses their power, and thus their effectiveness--and they are not the player they were earlier in their career. But WE AS FANS cannot or will not accept that their abilities have tarnished. (I thought I made it simple enough with citing Mattingly, Murphy, Clark, and Davis--but apparently not.)

I believe what Tracy Jones is saying is that since Votto's knee injury, he is NOT the hitter he once was.

Votto said it himself on Sportstalk with Lance McAlister, when asked about the 2013 season--he said physically he felt he had age 5 to 10 years overnight, and his bat was uncharacteristically slow. That, for most of the season, he could not square the ball through the middle, but instead could hit it down the left-field line.

I will give you stats that, to me, definitely show that Votto's power is NOT NEARLY as close to what it was from 2009 to 2012 (pre-injury)

Furthermore, his loss of power greatly diminishes his RBI performance--and it is this power loss (and NOT the people hitting around him) that is cause for concern as well as one of the main reasons why Votto's RBI total's have dropped since post-injury 2012.

To me, I am not so quick to jump at the conclusion that Votto's walk rate establishes that he is being pitched around, but I believe it to be a change in his approach to the plate. In my opinion only if Votto were TRULY being pitched around, his strikeout percentage (because pitchers walk him at a higher rate) would decreased throughout his career, but he is staying at close to 19% from 2009-2013.

Also, Votto's 4-5 hitters (and their numbers at least) are pretty much consistent throughout his career. I don't think pitchers/scouts/MLB woke up after Votto's 2011 and said, you know for four years Votto has had No protection, so now, let's make a conscience effort and walk him 5% more of the time.

Votto's set-up men have been HISTORICALLY bad, with the exception of 2013.
(see below)

And yet, with those set-up men in front of Votto and average support behind him (if he had played in 162 games every year from 2009-before injury 2012) would have had his lowest RBI output of 99 RBI.

Instead--after Votto's injury, because of his lack of power since the injury RBI totals have fallen by 25%
And, I don't need to remind anyone that last year, Votto had Choo hitting in front of him (which was a superior upgrade to ANYTHING Votto had from 2009-2012--and meanwhile, had his average 4/5 hitters behind him (with little variance from year to year)

Coach Bombay-- I like Joey Votto--I really do. But, if Votto has six more years of 2013 (and to me it will be less as he ages) Cooperstown is not a certainty.

I sincerely hope I am wrong, and that 2013 is an anomaly, but Votto will be 31 before this season is over, and perhaps his 12% XBH per plate appearance are behind him. And, if that is the case, and if his XBH% keeps sliding down... then 20-25 million per season until 2023 is awfully hard to swallow.



Year
Games
Total XBH
WALKS
STRIKEOUTS

[td]XBH% PER PA
WALKS% PER PA
STRIKEOUT% PER PA


2009
131
64
70
106
544
12%
13%
19%


2010
150
75
91
125
648
12%
14%
19%


2011
161
72
110
129
719
10%
15%
18%


2012
111
58
94
85
475
12%
20%
18%


2013
162
57
135
138
726
8%
19%
19%


SINCE THE INJURY
197
67
174
169
870
8%
20%
19%




In 2009
Votto drove in 84 runs in 131 games (for full 162 season that equates 10 100 rbi)

The 1-2 table setters were a combination of Taveras, Stubbs, Hairston, Janish, Dickerson
OBP of the table setters
Chris Dickerson .370
Drew Stubbs .323
Jerry Hairston .305
Willie Taveras .275
Paul Janish .296

The 4 hitter--Brandon Phillips
.329 OBP .447 SLG .776 OPS

The 5 hitter--Rolen, Bruce, Nix, Hernandez, Gomes
ROLEN .364 OBP .401 SLG .766 OPS
BRUCE .303 OBP .470 SLG .773 OPS
NIX .291 OBP .476 SLG .767 OPS
HERNANDEZ .336 OBP .362 SLG .699 OPS
GOMES .338 OBP .541 SLG .879 OPS

IN 2010
Votto drove in 113 runs in 150 games [122 if 162 game played]

The 1-2 table setters were a combination of Phillips/Cabrera
Brandon Phillips .332 OBP
Orlando Cabrera .303 OBP

4 hitter-Scott Rolen/Gomes/Bruce
Rolen .358 OBP .497 SLG .854 OPS
Gomes .327 OBP .431 SLG .758 OPS
Bruce .353 OBP .493 SLG .846 OPS

IN 2011
Votto drove in 103 runs in 161 games [103 if 162 game played]

The 1-2 table setters were a combination of Phillips/Cabrera
Stubbs .321 OBP
Phillips .353 OBP
Renteria .306 obp

4 hitter-Bruce/Phillips
Bruce .341 OBP .474 SLG .814 OPS
Phillips .353 OBP .457 SLG .810 OPS


IN 2012
Votto drove in 56 runs in 111 games [82 RBI if 162 GAME played]

The 1-2 table setters were a combination of Cozart/Stubbs
Cozart .288 OBP
Stubbs .277 OBP


4/5 hitter-Phillips/Ludwick/Bruce
Phillips .321 OBP .429 SLG .750 OPS
Ludwick .346 OBP .531 SLG .877 OPS
Bruce .327 OBP .514 SLG .841 OPS

IN 2012--prior to injury
Votto drove in 47 runs in 77 games [99 RBI if 162 GAME played]

The 1-2 table setters were a combination of Cozart/Stubbs
Cozart .288 OBP
Stubbs .277 OBP


4/5 hitter-Phillips/Ludwick/Bruce
Phillips .321 OBP .429 SLG .750 OPS
Ludwick .346 OBP .531 SLG .877 OPS
Bruce .327 OBP .514 SLG .841 OPS

IN 2013
Votto drove in 73 runs in 162 games [73 RBI if 162 GAME played]

The 1-2 table setters were a combination of Choo/Cozart
Choo .423 OBP
Cozart .284 OBP


4/5 hitter-Phillips/Bruce
Phillips .310 OBP .396 SLG .706 OPS
Bruce .329 OBP .478 SLG .807 OPS

jordan_tm
04-11-2014, 11:51 AM
I thought we were talking about a funny video? lol

RedTeamGo!
04-11-2014, 12:30 PM
If Votto has 6 straight years of 2013 he is absolutely a certainty for the HoF. No question about it. You are forgetting power numbers are down across the league. Only 3 batters in the NL had 30 or more home runs last season.

Votto had the 7th most in the NL.
Votto had 10th highest Slugging % in the NL.


On top of that Votto had:

Highest BB% in NL (3% higher than 2nd best)
Highest OBP in the NL

Don Votto
04-11-2014, 01:46 PM
Let's say for whatever reason, Votto has exact same numbers until 2019, then retires. To me, he is not a lock. He would be a sabermetric versus traditional argument.

If he did the above,
Votto
BA .309
HR 301
RBI 969
OBP .427
SLG .502
OPS .929

Now, if Votto wins batting titles, Rbi, hr...
Reds win post season/world series
Maybe mvps/gold gloves... etc.

But traditionalists will compare the first three and say... nope. Not good enough.
Brian Kenny will say yes.

I have a hard time believing he stays that consistent. I hope he does

RedTeamGo!
04-11-2014, 03:08 PM
He already has won an MVP and GG.

I don't really understand how someone can look at those numbers + an MVP and not think HOF. It is just bizarre to me.

Don Votto
04-11-2014, 03:37 PM
Here you go...

IF Votto has exact same 2013 numbers every year until 2019, then retires.
***EDITED VERSION***
HE WOULD NOT BE A HALL OF FAMER-- WHEN LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS

If he equaled the 2013 for every year from 2014-2019--
Votto have the following stats, and WOULD NOT MAKE Cooperstown

BA .309 (This would put him 17th all-time amongst first basemen)
117th Overall All-Time (Behind Manny Ramirez, Nomar Garciaparra, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Vlad Guerrero, Ichiro,)

HR 301 This would put him 35th all-time amongst first basemen)
135 OVERALL all-time (Behind Scott Rolen, Jeromy Burnitz, Ryan Howard, Miguel Tejada, Reggie Sanders, David Justice, Steve Finley, Torii Hunter, Ron Gant,Jermaine Dye, Moises Alou, Darryl Strawberry, Mark Teixeira, Ellis Burks, Carlos Beltran, Miguel Cabrera, Lance Berkman, Adrian Beltre, Graig Nettles, Jim Edmonds, Alfonso Soriano, Jason Giambi, Paul Konerko, David Ortiz, Adam Dunn)


RBI 969 This would put him 65th all-time amongst first basemen
306th OVERALL all-time ( Behind Pat Burrell, Jeromy Burnitz, Ryan Klesko, Reggie Sanders, Ron Gant, Darrell Strawberry, Tim Salmon, David Justice, Bret Boone, Michael Young, Brian Giles, Don mattingly, Wally Joyner, Adam Dunn, Alfonso Soriano, Johnny Damon, Raul Ibanez--to name a few)

OBP .427 11th All-time 3rd All-time Amongst first basemen
Puts him behind only true Hall of Famers, with the exception of Bill Joyce

SLG .502 32 all-time amongst first basemen
(Puts him 92nd OVERALL all-time behind Brian Giles, Magglio Ordonez, Darrell Strawberry, Richie Sexton, Fred McGriff, Ellis Burks, Jason Giambi, Kevin Mitchell, Jim Edmonds, Nomar Garciaparra, Todd Helton, Vladmir Guerrero.)

OPS .929 (13th all-time amongst first basemen)
(Puts him OVERALL 30th all-time behind Berkman, V. Guerrero, Edgar Martinez, Albert Belle, Helton, Bagwell)

EDITED** Too many great/good/all-star players with similar or better numbers than Votto (Whether they are current or within the past 30 years.)

I really do not think having an elite OBP alone will get Votto into Cooperstown

He needs more production (yes RBI and HR/EXTRA BASES) to have a shot.

Now, if Votto wins batting titles, Rbi, hr...
Reds win post season/world series
Maybe (MORE mvps/ AND gold gloves... etc.

BUT--if he posts 2013 stats, while nice, will not get him MVP, HR TITLES, RBI TITLES,GOLD GLOVES (IT may get him batting average titles.)

Don Votto
04-11-2014, 03:48 PM
He already has won an MVP and GG.

I don't really understand how someone can look at those numbers + an MVP and not think HOF. It is just bizarre to me.

There are many former and current players with 1 MVP,GG, and similar or better overall numbers than those numbers I posted for Votto, that will not even whiff the Hall of Fame.

Former MVP's that came up in the Votto comparisons-- (though I think you can make the argument for many of them, are not in the Hall of fame)
Larry Walker,
Jeff Bagwell,
Dale Murphy,
Steve Garvey
Miguel Tejada,
Jason Giambi,
Juan Gonzalez,
Mo Vaughn,
Don Baylor,
Boog Powell

Tracy Jones
04-11-2014, 06:08 PM
If Votto has 6 straight years of 2013 he is absolutely a certainty for the HoF. No question about it. You are forgetting power numbers are down across the league. Only 3 batters in the NL had 30 or more home runs last season.

Votto had the 7th most in the NL.
Votto had 10th highest Slugging % in the NL.


On top of that Votto had:

Highest BB% in NL (3% higher than 2nd best)
Highest OBP in the NL

10th in the NL in slugging? Sorry. Not good enough. Not even close.

Not for what the Reds are paying him and need him to be.

Larry Schuler
04-12-2014, 12:36 AM
What if Votto sneaks into center field and launches fire works after each of his at bats? Would that give HOF voters the sparkle and pop they need to vote him in?

Don Votto
04-12-2014, 11:43 AM
What if Votto sneaks into center field and launches fire works after each of his at bats? Would that give HOF voters the sparkle and pop they need to vote him in?

Larry--
If you look can step back, and without bias, look at the numbers that I posted (which were projected IF Votto repeated his same stats from 2013 and added on to his current career totals), and then compare them to other first basemen [within the last 30 years] that have either been elected to Major League Baseball Hall of Fame, or more importantly have NOT been elected to the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame... then, no.

It is in my estimation, that Votto, if he ended is career with a .300 average, a tick over 300 homeruns, and less than 1000 RBI-- he will not make the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame. [He will obviously be in the Reds Hall of Fame--and the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame]

Now, if those fireworks were being lit off because Votto was hitting 35-40 home runs a year (Plus an additional 30-40 doubles) and driving in 90-100 runs consistently... while maintaining a .300 average, a .400 OBP, and .550-.600 SLG.... then yes, he will make it.

Also, if Votto played catcher, shortstop, second base, or possibly third base--you could make a better argument--but there would be too many great first basemen who have better numbers overall numbers (and not just OBP) that would be above Votto ( and for them, many of them are struggling to get enough votes to get into Cooperstown.)

He is a great player--and, could possibly make it to Cooperstown without buying a ticket.
But, not with years that mirror his 2013 season.

You can't just walk into the Hall of Fame.

Falcon7
04-14-2014, 07:09 PM
That's was pretty darn funny, had no idea he had that in him! Thanks for posting.

Does anybody else see a little Ashton Kutcher resemblance?

RedTeamGo!
04-14-2014, 10:50 PM
10th in the NL in slugging? Sorry. Not good enough. Not even close.

Not for what the Reds are paying him and need him to be.

What if I were to say Votto got on base more than anybody in the national league last year? Is that even close?

Larkin Fan
04-14-2014, 11:57 PM
I don't know what's more funny. Larry's post or the response accusing him of being biased afterwards. :lol:

Beatlessp
04-15-2014, 09:24 AM
very funny video...laughed out loud several times...the best was his reaction to his high school video. and just to throw this out there...if he gets around 550ABs this season (almost 40 LESS than last year), he's on pace right now for 37 HRs....yeah, yeah, its early, but I think the doubts about Joey's power were a little premature.

Raisor
04-15-2014, 10:01 AM
yeah, yeah, its early, but I think the doubts about Joey's power were a little premature.

While I agree with you I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't shake my finger and say:

If you know it's early and you put "it's early" in your post then it's too early.

Don Votto
04-15-2014, 10:01 AM
I don't know what's more funny. Larry's post or the response accusing him of being biased afterwards. :lol:

Larkin Fan--

Why was my comment about asking for him being unbiased funny? Is Larry not capable of just looking at the numbers I posted and having an unbiased thought toward Votto, or do you feel that I am being biased? I am not really sure which it is.

In case you did not read my previous posts, I will try to explain it to you.

The PREMISE was-- IF Votto repeated the his previous season for the next six years, and then retired--he would not have the career numbers to get into the Hall of Fame.

His career stats would include a .309 Batting Average -- little more than 300 home runs -- and less than 1000 Rbi's. These numbers are not even close to being Cooperstown Hall of Fame worthy, when in comparison to other first basemen that have played within the past 30-40 years.

If you would take the time to read through my posts--I even included the other players that posted better career numbers in these stats (as of April, 2014), as well I also took into account his all-time place among first basemen in those categories, as well as OBP, SLG, and OPS.

Those numbers, while great--would not get him into the Hall of Fame.

I want Votto to do well. I really do. I think he has the potential to be one of the greatest Reds of All-Time--perhaps just under Robinson and Rose.

But that being said--Like Eric Davis, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, and Will Clark, he has had six good to great years in this league--let's see him be good to great for another eight to ten before we put him in Cooperstown.

Don Votto
04-15-2014, 11:55 AM
One more thing--
Todd Helton.

After Todd Helton's Age:29 Season, these were his career numbers vs Joey Votto.
I ask you this--is Todd Helton HOF Bound?



NAME
GAMES
WALKS
HITS
HR
R
RBI
AVG
OBP
SLG
OPS


HELTON
946
540
1182
219
717
740
.347
.438
.633
1.071


VOTTO
890
572
1011
160
538
536
.314
.419
.541
.960



After year 30--Helton's seasonal averages were:


NAME
G
BB
H
HR
R
RBI
AVG
OBP
SLG
OPS


Avg Year from Age 30-39)
141
89
149
17
76
74
.299
.404
.479
.882



Votto has some work to do, even to catch Todd Helton.

RedTeamGo!
04-15-2014, 12:29 PM
Um, not relly - Helton was pretty average from 31-39, he hit 7 home runs in 2008 and 2012 and 8 home runs in 2010. He only hit 20+ home runs once in those years (2005 - 20 HR). He also played in Colorado, which is taken into account by writers. Helton also never won an MVP. Votto won an MVP. Helton was only a 5 time all star. Votto has been an all star 4 times, and I would be shocked if he doesn't at least double that with all of Canada voting for him. If Votto were to repeat 2013 for the next 6 years his career numbers would blow Helton's out of the water.

As of today Joey Votto has the 17th best OPS in the history of baseball.

He has the best 20th OBP in the history of baseball. This ranking will go up if he duplicates 2013's OBP.

If he were to simply duplicate 2013 for rest of his career he would finish among the leaders in the most important offensive category in baseball (OBP) of all time.

Don Votto
04-15-2014, 12:49 PM
One more thing--Here are some first basemen through either their age thirty years OR through year seven of the MLB careers
Let's see how they stack up against Votto:
Todd Helton, Will Clark, Don Mattingly, Jeff Bagwell, Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Prince Fielder



NAME
GAMES
WALKS
HITS
HR
R
RBI
AVG
OBP
SLG
OPS


VOTTO
890
564
999
157
529
530
.314
.422
.541
.963


CLARK
1028
443
1139
162
605
636
.302
.375
.507
.882


MATTINGLY
1008
314
1298
164
615
716
.324
.369
.522
.891


BAGWELL
1008
627
1112
187
654
724
.304
.415
.535
.950


PUJOLS
1091
592
1344
282
847
861
.332
.424
.620
1.045


CABRERA
1040
446
1220
209
630
753
.311
.485
.542
.927



FIELDER,PRINCE
998
566
996
230
571
656
.282
.397
.540
.937

RedTeamGo!
04-15-2014, 01:01 PM
The only number the other hitters are clearly higher in is RBI, if that is your main arguement, you are destroying your credibility.

CoachBombay
04-15-2014, 01:12 PM
and games played. He played 100 games and almost a full season less than than some. which if Votto had more games played it would increase his walks, hits, runs, rbi, HR

Don Votto
04-15-2014, 01:20 PM
If he were to simply duplicate 2013 for rest of his career he would finish among the leaders in the most important offensive category in baseball (OBP) of all time.

I think, OBP is important, but let's not kid ourselves here. It is one stat that helps evaluate a player.

I think determining the overall offensive power force that a player is, is definitely OPS and OPS+

Joey Votto is there, but, (until these last few games AND I HOPE IT PROVES ME WRONG) but, that being said,
Votto's extra base hit percentage NEEDS to stay in the double digits per PLATE APPEARANCES (NOT AT BATS)--as it did
for every year prior to July, 2012.

If he gets to those levels again that AND stays healthy for about 5-6 years, even with a fall off in aging
that happens to all players, I think he is a FIRST BALLOT Hall of Famer. If he does the 135 walks and 7-8% xbh per plate appearance, then
Joey may get into the HOF

Let's face it... he is signed through year 40 and will get over 1000 RBI(if he maintained a 73RBI average)--but then again his OPS will continue to fall, and he will then become a borderline candidate... in my opinion.

By the way--here some names from the top 50 players Major Leaguers of all-time in the most important offensive category (OBP)
SO...

So, with that being said....

I must then assume that these players are among the all-time greatest offensive players of all-time (if... of course... OBP is the most imporant stat of them all)

Bill Joyce -- pre 1900 (who would honestly know?)

Ferris Fain -- guess he did not make the HOF because he only played 9 years?

Max Bishop --.423 lifetime OBP a shoe in...

Cupid Childs-- pre 1900 (who would honestly know?)

Todd Helton -- certain Hall of Famer because of ridiculous OBP?

Edgar Martinez -- certain Hall of Famer because of ridiculous OBP?

Charlie Keller -- Yankee legend--I can assume he should be a certain Hall of Famer? Oh wait.. not enough quality years.. darn it.

Eddie Stanky -- Incredible production from Stanky... he should be in HOF

Roy Cullenbine -- total hall of famer here... look at Cullenbine's stats. How'd he get overlooked?

Jake Stenzal -- pre 1900 (who would honestly know?)

Riggs Stephenson -- so overlooked. When will the Veteran's committee get this guy in?

Joe Harris -- Seriously--who could have forgotten about the offensive prowess of this guy? Because of his OBP the fans in Boston in the early 1920's forgot all about Babe Ruth.

Joe Cunningham -- Last but not least, hard hitting Joe (Don't call me Richie) Cunningham.

RedTeamGo!
04-15-2014, 01:36 PM
By the way--here some names from the top 50 players Major Leaguers of all-time in the most important offensive category (OBP)
SO...



Votto is currently ranked 20th.

Let's look at the top 25 (I don't know why we looked at the top 50)

1. Ted Williams (HOF)
2. Babe Ruth (HOF)
3. John McGraw (HOF)
4. Billy Hamitlon (HOF)
5. Lou Gerhig (HOF)
6. Barry Bonds (not yet, but obviously should be HOF)
7. Bill Joyce (only played 8 years, pre 1900)
8. Rogers Hornsby (HOF)
9. Ty Cobb (HOF)
10. Jimmie Foxx (HOF)
11. Tris Speaker (HOF)
12. Eddie Collins (HOF)
13. Ferris Fain (only played 9 years, hit for no power whatsoever)
14. Dan Brouthers (HOF)
15. Max Bishop (no power whatsoever)
16. Shoeless Joe Jackson (would be in HOF if didn't get caught in Black Sox scandal)
17. Mickey Mantle (HOF)
18. Mickey Cochrane (HOF)
19. Frank Thomas (HOF)
20. Joey Votto
21. Edgar Martinez (career DH, could argue he deserves)
22. Stan Musial (HOF)
23. Cupid Childs
24. Wadd Boggs (HOF)
25. Jesse Burkett (HOF)

Not only were the vast majority of these guys HOFers - they were first ballot and considered legends.

Don Votto
04-15-2014, 01:51 PM
Votto is currently ranked 20th.

Let's look at the top 25 (I don't know why we looked at the top 50)

1. Ted Williams (HOF)
2. Babe Ruth (HOF)
3. John McGraw (HOF)
4. Billy Hamitlon (HOF)
5. Lou Gerhig (HOF)
6. Barry Bonds (not yet, but obviously should be HOF)
7. Bill Joyce (only played 8 years, pre 1900)
8. Rogers Hornsby (HOF)
9. Ty Cobb (HOF)
10. Jimmie Foxx (HOF)
11. Tris Speaker (HOF)
12. Eddie Collins (HOF)
13. Ferris Fain (only played 9 years, hit for no power whatsoever)
14. Dan Brouthers (HOF)
15. Max Bishop (no power whatsoever)
16. Shoeless Joe Jackson (would be in HOF if didn't get caught in Black Sox scandal)
17. Mickey Mantle (HOF)
18. Mickey Cochrane (HOF)
19. Frank Thomas (HOF)
20. Joey Votto
21. Edgar Martinez (career DH, could argue he deserves)
22. Stan Musial (HOF)
23. Cupid Childs
24. Wadd Boggs (HOF)
25. Jesse Burkett (HOF)

Not only were the vast majority of these guys HOFers - they were first ballot and considered legends.

So, your only answer for not including a top 50 for the tens of thousands of ball players was that it hurts your argument...ok.

- - - Updated - - -


The only number the other hitters are clearly higher in is RBI, if that is your main arguement, you are destroying your credibility.



OK... this is what kills me about people that overlook the RBI stat-- the RBI is an important stat.

Now, albeit, there are times when there is ABSOLUTELY nothing you can do about getting walked and pitched around.... but... Bonds was walked one year 232 times. 232 TIMES. and yet, he somehow managed to drive in 101 runs.



In fact-- Bonds walked 100+ times in 14 seasons, and drove in 100+ runs in 11 of those seasons.



Votto was ON PACE to drive in 99 in 2012 before he hurt his knee--in fact, without his depression episode and his knee, he would be sitting on 95 RBI seasons--


And, AGAIN--it's not like he had awesome protection behind him and table setters in front of him.

KEEP IN MIND-- his xbh/plate appearance was 12% during this time.

Now, 2013 comes along, and he has Choo who is getting on at a phenomenal clip-- but his xbh per plate appearance DROPS 4-5 percentage points.

What does this mean? Well, if Votto has 700 plate appearances and he has 12% xbh average--he hits 84 extra base hits... doubles, and home runs included. Compare that to 7-8% Now, Votto has only 49-64 extrabase hits during this time. Let's see.... with Choo getting on base at a .400 clip and an extra 20-25 extra base hits... could that POSSIBLY equate to 100 RBI? Hmmmm.....



Early 2012 he was on the walk pace that we saw in 2013 BUT he was hitting 12% xbh/pa and even with the awesome combo of Stubbs/Cozart/Janish hitting in front of him, he was on pace for 99-100 RBI.



Again--I AM SUPER HOPEFUL that Joey's power is back. Right now, his XBH/PA is at 11%, and I hope with his power back, we will see him driving in 90-100 RBI per season.

RedTeamGo!
04-15-2014, 01:55 PM
So, your only answer for not including a top 50 for the tens of thousands of ball players was that it hurts your argument...ok.



My reason for not including thet top 50 is that Votto is in the top 20, so why wouldnt we show his immediate peers? The list I provided shows Votto's peers are first ballot hall of famers and legends of the game of baseball.

Also: If you take top 25 OPS all time (which Votto is ranked 17th currently) he is surrounded by first ballot HOFers and legends as well.

His "depression episode?"

Are you referring to 2010 when he said (in an interview from this weekend) that he played the entire season depressed and went on to win the National League Most Valuable Player Award?

Don Votto
04-15-2014, 02:57 PM
His "depression episode?"

Are you referring to 2010 when he said (in an interview from this weekend) that he played the entire season depressed and went on to win the National League Most Valuable Player Award?

No, I am referring to the 2009 season when he left the team in the middle of the season.
----------
OBVIOUSLY WE DISAGREE WITH WHAT A LEGENDARY OFFENSIVE PERFORMER IS--
Look--I believe that legendary players need to do a combination of the following.
Get on base Which Votto Does.
Hit for 10-12 Extra base hit per plate appearance power, which Votto did (but did not do in 2013)
If they hit 3-4-5 in the order--drive in runs. which Votto did (but did not do in 2013)
If they 1-2 in the order, score runs... maybe Joey can do this and hit for power now.
Be a legendary producer for a minimum of 10 years (5 more years needed.) year one was not legendary--last year was not legendary

This is a list of a combination of Top 50 in RBI, RUNS, SLG Per and Walks (Joey's forte right now)
The following players are legends--they are in the top 50 in three of the four categories.

I realize these are legends--but these players somehow managed to not only walk, but produce RBIs and slug. That's what I want and expect from Votto for the next five or six years. Give me numbers that will elevate him to a Three category performer, and I am good.


TOP 50 IN FOUR CATEGORIES
Ted Williams
Babe Ruth
Stan Musial
Mel Ott
Lou Gehrig
Barry Bonds
Jimmie Foxx

TOP 50 IN THREE CATEGORIES
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Rogers Hornby
Mickey Mantle
Manny Ramirez
Ken Griffey Jr
Hank Aaron
Frank Thomas
Frank Robinson
Chipper Jones
Alex Rodriguez

RedTeamGo!
04-15-2014, 03:15 PM
3 of those 4 categories are counting stats. There is no way Votto could be top 50 in any of those because he is only halfway through his career.

Why would you do walks and not OBP? Perhaps because Votto is only 30 so he wouldn't have enough walks to be top 50 since he is only halfway through his career? Not to mention his forte is not even walks - it is getting on base.

Votto (non-counting stats)

OBP:

20th

Slugging %:

34th

wRC+:

16th

OPS:

17th

OPS+:

22nd

Don Votto
04-15-2014, 05:26 PM
Because Hall of Famers are judged by their careers... and NOT THEIR FIRST SIX or SEVEN SEASONS. If that were the case, then Helton, Mattingly would be in the Hall of Fame. Votto has a long way to go, and to assume that he is going to revert to his days of 12 xba/pa and maintain that--while (yes.. walking is his specialty) 135 times a season. And then MAINTAIN that excellence is a HUGE assumption.

His career OPS will go down, and continue to go down if he has .495 seasons. His slugging will go down. His RBI totals will not be there. The Hall of Fame is a Career Accomplishment.
That is why I used the milestone career numbers. He plays a premier offensive position... Larkin could get away with sub .300 sub 200 hr sub 1000 rbi because he was a SS. That does not fly for first basemen.

In comparison to the modern day players on your top 25 OBP list, Votto is not even close to being as productive offensive forces that Thomas and Bonds were.... and though he has more power than Boggs has some major career milestones--3000 hits most notably... Boston and New York teams.... and not in the Midwest...and a number of Batting Titles.

The keys for Votto's career in my estimation , to make it into the Hall of Fame
1. 310 or better average
2. 350+ Home Runs
3. 1400+ RBI
4. Maintain his level of OBP
5. Recapture his pre-2012 OPS.
Win a batting title, home run title, or RBI title.
Win another MVP

Don't fade out like Helton, Mattingly, Clark, or Dale Murphy.

Because, to me, the list I posted of other firstbasemen... (Mattingly, Clark, Pujols, Helton, Bagwell, Cabrera, Fielder, and Votto) There is two Hall of Famers on that list (if they all were inactive right now--Pujols and Bagwell) The others are in the category of great but not great enough careers...

Now, Votto, Fielder and Cabrera can work into Cooperstown, but they have work to do.

Tracy Jones
04-15-2014, 06:51 PM
What if I were to say Votto got on base more than anybody in the national league last year? Is that even close?

I would say no chit Chet no chit.

Is that what the Reds are paying $200 million for? A slow, station to station high OBP player? Is that what this team paid for and needs him to be?

Nope.

Or do they need and pay $200 million for a player who not only gets on base at a high clip, but is also an elite slugger...not just "10th best in the National League" but perhaps top 5 in all of baseball?

Yep.

Larry Schuler
04-15-2014, 08:11 PM
Reds don't pay him $200 million to be one of the best players in baseball. They pay him $200 to be the best player ever.

Raisor
04-16-2014, 06:32 AM
Reds fans: eating their own since 1867.

RedTeamGo!
04-16-2014, 07:06 AM
Miguel Cabrera is already a first ballot hall of famer.

8 time all star
back-to-back MVP
Triple Crown

+ excellent stats. He could stop playing today.

Don Votto
04-22-2014, 12:46 PM
RedTeamGo-- You're right.... Cabrera is HALL worthy right now.

Was looking at Fangraphs and Oliver's five year projection for Votto.

Per their projections--

After 2018 Votto's career numbers will be




AVG
OBP
SLG
OPS
HR
RUNS
RBI
HITS


VOTTO CAREER AFTER 2018 (PER FANGRAPHS)
.304
.418
.508
.927
252
931
908
1707



Those numbers AFTER 2018--based on today's ALL-TIME leader board
BA -- Top 160 All-time
HR-- Top 200 All-Time
RBI-- Top 350 All-Time
SLG--Top 80 All-Time
OBP--Top 25 All-Time
OPS--Top 45 All-Time

Per FanGraphs--
the highest BA he will have is .299
the highest HR will be 21
the highest RBI will be 80

I think this fangraph projection is a bit more critical than I would be--especially since it is only based on 600 Plate appearances and 143 game seasons)

But, if indeed these numbers are a reflection of what could happen...
Then All-Star appearances drop off (which for whatever reason HOF voters look to.
Votto will be hard pressed to win any silver sluggers, MVP's, and will not be in the running for any of the triple crown categories.

So, Votto's case will be one of sabremetrics... one in which they will point to the only argument they would have...OBP and OPS.

If this is the case--and these are his career numbers when he is entering into year 35-- then it is hard for me to imagine him improving through the final five years of his contract and boosting his career numbers to a HOF worthy individual.

joshua
04-26-2014, 12:27 PM
I love the RBI argument with Votto
He's had a true lead off hitter in front of him ONE YEAR. Every other year it was a failed mixture of guys like Taveras, Stubbs, Dickerson, Heisey and Phillips. Votto isn't hitting 2nd this year because of his supposed lack of power but because there's nobody else on this team that can. If Votto hit in the 3 hole for the Red Sox the past three years, he'd have drove in a **** load of runs.

Don Votto
04-26-2014, 01:50 PM
I love the RBI argument with Votto
He's had a true lead off hitter in front of him ONE YEAR. Every other year it was a failed mixture of guys like Taveras, Stubbs, Dickerson, Heisey and Phillips. Votto isn't hitting 2nd this year because of his supposed lack of power but because there's nobody else on this team that can. If Votto hit in the 3 hole for the Red Sox the past three years, he'd have drove in a **** load of runs.

The thing is, prior to his knee injury, with the stiffs in front of him in both 2009 and 2012 he was on pace for 100 RBI seasons. Which is remarkable. But then he gets hurt, gets Choo, and his rbi's dropped from 100 to 73. (Head scratcher)