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View Full Version : So Walt is back for 2 more years...



Big Red Smokey
09-27-2014, 12:15 AM
There's been nothing done since the Latos trade to give any sort of positive spin on this decision.

What a disaster

Banshee
09-27-2014, 04:16 AM
Worse to me is the future, or lack there of for our redlegs. Logic says Cueto is probably traded, and if not he's signed to a pretty risky LT deal. And if not him, than Latos/Leake are gone for fiscal reasons, and Simon in arb. is given a HUGE raise that noone knows if he'll be able to live up to. Not to mention the uncertainty w/ the surgery to Bailey, injuries to Votto/Bruce/BP, no LF'er etc. The most promising group of reds has now become the most questionable, and rebuilding/blowing it up seems more likely than the last 5-6 yrs., by a mile to me.

Larry Schuler
09-27-2014, 04:33 AM
They should trade Cueto, Latos, Votto, Chapman and Bailey for a middle of the order bat, a solid closer, and three above average starters.

RedlegJake
09-27-2014, 08:39 AM
That's a Schuler special right there...after a while you come to appreciate that guy

Plus Plus
09-28-2014, 10:12 PM
There's been nothing done since the Latos trade to give any sort of positive spin on this decision.

What a disaster

Choo?

jojo
09-29-2014, 06:50 AM
Choo?

Bless you.

jojo
09-29-2014, 06:55 AM
They should trade Cueto, Latos, Votto, Chapman and Bailey for a middle of the order bat, a solid closer, and three above average starters.

I'd personally like to see them go after a 30hr bat for right field and maybe a solid defensive third baseman with good pop and a likable personality.

RedFanT
10-03-2014, 10:04 PM
I don't blame Walt for everything, but the lack of bats off the bench and AAA really hurt this team. We could see even in spring training this was going to be a weak spot, and it certainly turned out to be so. At some level, the GM is responsible for this, as is the farm director. To put it this way, the top HR and run producers in Louisville's lineup this season were Ruben Gotay and Felix Perez. Those were the team's big bats in AAA in 2014.

Worse, or should I say most fearful, is what will happen when those contracts of our most vaunted pitchers start to come up. It's very possible we will lose them all (or only keep one of the big three [Cueto, Chapman, and Latos]), which means it's highly likely at 1-2 of those pitchers will be traded and soon. So, that means when it comes time to trade two of those pitchers (likely Cueto and Chapman), Cincy needs to get some value in return (offensively on the big club and at least a highly touted prospect or two at the AAA level). Does anyone trust Walt to do that? He's had success, but from what I've seen of the team's bench and AAA lineup, never mind the recent trades, I'm not overly confident in his ability to do that (and much of that hamstringing is also a result of the exorbitant contracts we signed Homer and Joey to). I know it's not an attractive idea, especially with the 2015 ASG in Cincinnati, but this team should consider a money/player dump if things do not go extremely well in the first two months of the 2015 season (and possibly even this off season, if the Reds could find a great combination of players in a trade for its marquee pitchers). Or we could hope Votto, Phillips, and no one else in the regular lineup get hurt next season (and Votto returns to his pre-injury form), a LFer suddenly appears, and all goes well. That seems about as fanciful as trusting Walt as GM at this point.

By the way, I hope I am wrong about all of this.

PadsFS
10-07-2014, 12:34 PM
Bless you.


Do you not think the Choo deal was a good one or were you just making a joke.

PaulyOH
10-07-2014, 02:04 PM
I know it's not an attractive idea, especially with the 2015 ASG in Cincinnati, but this team should consider a money/player dump if things do not go extremely well in the first two months of the 2015 season (and possibly even this off season, if the Reds could find a great combination of players in a trade for its marquee pitchers).

This is exactly the approach the Reds need to take: Try and tinker and make 1 or 2 key moves in the off-season for one more big run at the division. But if things go south early, I think they have to blow things up a bit to maintain long-term success. If not, this team could be NL Central cellar-dwellers very quickly, especially with the bright future the Cubs have.

PadsFS
10-08-2014, 10:07 AM
I think the Brewers are headed for the cellar for the next few years. They don't have a lot of promise with aging arms and no minor league help on the way really.

Big Red Smokey
10-09-2014, 07:45 PM
Ever since the Latos trade, this team has had ZERO legit offensive prospects depending on how you feel about Hamilton. It's been 3 years, and there's nothing in the immediate future ready.

RedlegJake
10-10-2014, 12:59 AM
3 OF prospects I think are legitimate. Winker - just around the corner, another year, but he's a hitter. YRod - has the tools, discipline is the question. Waldrop - like Winker, just around the corner but I think he's legit. Phil Ervin bombing this year hurts. For the foreseeable future that's about it though. There are some hitters in the lower leagues but a ways off yet. Blandino may come on quickly. No doubt it is a tough winter and how well Walt handles the impending FA pitchers, keep em/trade em/whats the return, will have a huge impact on whether the Reds go to the cellar or remain contenders in the years after 2015.

Big Red Smokey
10-10-2014, 07:07 AM
Love what the Cubs have done.

Focus on getting stud offensive prospects for cheap, then they are about to invest heavily in pitching. Scherzer, Lester, etc. will be coming to Chicago this year.

RedlegJake
10-10-2014, 09:48 AM
Love what the Cubs have done.

Focus on getting stud offensive prospects for cheap, then they are about to invest heavily in pitching. Scherzer, Lester, etc. will be coming to Chicago this year.

Before we get all enamored of the Cubs remember they have been pathetic for a few years now to get those great offensive prospects. Drafting in the top 3-4 a few years straight tends to make the farm look terrific. The Marlins, Devil Rays, Astros, Royals all know that schtick.

Big Red Smokey
10-11-2014, 12:42 AM
Before we get all enamored of the Cubs remember they have been pathetic for a few years now to get those great offensive prospects. Drafting in the top 3-4 a few years straight tends to make the farm look terrific. The Marlins, Devil Rays, Astros, Royals all know that schtick.

Well, the Royals have now made it further in the playoffs than the Reds have during this window, so we can go ahead and chalk them up as successful in doing it.

Cubs will be next.

RedlegJake
10-11-2014, 08:43 AM
The Royals have a very small window though, Big Red. In support of your point, what makes the Cubs dangerous is they have the money to back their play. They can sign whoever they need to fill holes that are left and have a couple expendable trade pieces like Castro to work with too. My point is that to load up on the same quality of prospects the Cubs have the Reds would need to blow it up and suffer 3 or 4 years like the Cubs just went through. Yes - the Cubs are going to be dangerous but I don't want the Reds to follow the same path,

Big Red Smokey
10-12-2014, 01:59 AM
The Royals have a very small window though, Big Red. In support of your point, what makes the Cubs dangerous is they have the money to back their play. They can sign whoever they need to fill holes that are left and have a couple expendable trade pieces like Castro to work with too. My point is that to load up on the same quality of prospects the Cubs have the Reds would need to blow it up and suffer 3 or 4 years like the Cubs just went through. Yes - the Cubs are going to be dangerous but I don't want the Reds to follow the same path,

well the Royals small window has now been infinitely more successful than the Reds current 5 year window that's resulted in a 2-7 postseason record.

RedlegJake
10-12-2014, 09:02 AM
So I take it you would rather be a last place club for a decade like the Cubs and Royals, get a bunch of first round picks along the way and sometime around 2025 win it all? Because that IS the path the Royals took, and the Cubs might be on...they started this "successful" journey by losing for a long, long time

Big Red Smokey
10-13-2014, 07:52 PM
So I take it you would rather be a last place club for a decade like the Cubs and Royals, get a bunch of first round picks along the way and sometime around 2025 win it all? Because that IS the path the Royals took, and the Cubs might be on...they started this "successful" journey by losing for a long, long time

Cubs have won a playoff series more recently than the Reds have.

PTjvs
10-14-2014, 03:28 PM
Ever since the Latos trade, this team has had ZERO legit offensive prospects depending on how you feel about Hamilton. It's been 3 years, and there's nothing in the immediate future ready.

I agree. Excluding the 2014 NL non-pitcher RotY and the handful of decent offensive prospects, there haven't been any decent offensive prospects!

jvs

Big Red Smokey
10-15-2014, 06:23 PM
I agree. Excluding the 2014 NL non-pitcher RotY and the handful of decent offensive prospects, there haven't been any decent offensive prospects!

jvs

Where are the decent offensive prospects that have come up since the Latos trade besides Hamilton (Who had an awful year offensively)

And don't even try to defend a .292 OBP, it's indefensible for a leadoff hitter.

Big Red Smokey
10-15-2014, 07:08 PM
Yep, I would much rather be the Reds than the Royals the last 5 years....

PTjvs
10-15-2014, 09:44 PM
Where are the decent offensive prospects that have come up since the Latos trade besides Hamilton (Who had an awful year offensively)

And don't even try to defend a .292 OBP, it's indefensible for a leadoff hitter.

The guys who were ready to contribute at that time were traded for Latos & Choo. The decent offensive prospects the Reds have had, since then, are still in the minors.

In 3 years, the Reds minor league system has produced one major league starter, who was the best rookie position player the year he came up. How many players do you think the average team produces in a random 3 year period?

We'd all like the minors to produce more talent, as that is clearly the best way for a team without a top payroll to compete, and it's fair to call the recent minor league development as average, but do not agree it has been much worse than that.

It's not like what the Royals are doing now is particularly predictable. They've been trying to do the same thing for well over 20 years.

jvs

villain612
10-20-2014, 12:47 AM
There's been nothing done since the Latos trade to give any sort of positive spin on this decision.

What a disaster

Trading Ryan Hannigan so Mesoraco could be an everyday starter turned out alright.

REDREAD
10-20-2014, 01:34 PM
Ever since the Latos trade, this team has had ZERO legit offensive prospects depending on how you feel about Hamilton. It's been 3 years, and there's nothing in the immediate future ready.

Frasier and Mez don't count? And yes, Billy H does count as an offensive prospect, he was rushed this year (should've been in AAA). I'm not guaranteeing Billy H makes the HOF, but he probably has a solid career at least.
Winker is a decent bat too on the farm, as is Ervin.. Plus the bats they traded for Latos (maybe that is past the 3 year mark).

REDREAD
10-20-2014, 01:38 PM
Love what the Cubs have done.

Focus on getting stud offensive prospects for cheap, then they are about to invest heavily in pitching. Scherzer, Lester, etc. will be coming to Chicago this year.

No thanks on the cubs model.. I don't want to finish in the basement for the 4-5 years it takes to get those high draft picks, plus Cincy is not going to be able to go on the FA market and buy the Lester, Scherzer. etc type guys, who honestly are a huge risk do the financial commitment it takes to sign them. Reds are doing it right. Grow and develop the young pitching. Have a few offense stars and supplement the offensive stars with average and role players from the farm and FA. Bruce and Votto (and to some extent Phillips/Ludwick) derailed that plan this year, but it has been working pretty good. If Bruce/Votto produce next year, we'll be in contention again (with reasonable health on the rest of the team)

Billy Budd
10-20-2014, 06:24 PM
What will be interesting is to see how baseball responds to the Royals model. And, I am not discussing the fact that they were perennial losers with high draft picks, I am talking about a model, that puts the ball in play, plays solid above average defense, and concentrates on moving runners into scoring position.

With the way that baseball changed over the course of the past twenty years, I find their style of play refreshing. I like the fact that, perhaps, maybe, some teams can actually hit and run. That their team does not have a starting line-up in which every member would have been over 100 strikes outs on the year for the season (had they stayed healthy).

To me, the SABR style of waiting out pitchers, trying to work a walk, not adjusting your swing when down two-strikes, is not effective anymore. Not when bullpens have the abilities that they exhibit nowadays.

Big Red Smokey
10-22-2014, 11:40 PM
Trading Ryan Hannigan so Mesoraco could be an everyday starter turned out alright.

2 years after the real trade value he had dissipated.

David Holmberg was a great acquisition.

RedlegJake
10-23-2014, 09:36 AM
2 years after the real trade value he had dissipated.

David Holmberg was a great acquisition.

I'll take the tongue out of my cheek and say yeah he was. For the player he was acquired for it was a nice pickup. Holmberg will be a contributor.