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Billy Budd
10-30-2014, 02:49 PM
Since Bochy's Giants have now won three titles in five years, I wonder when people will start giving this manager his due as one of the best managers in the game.

Bochy's Giants have accomplished something that no other manager in the National League has accomplished.
No other manager NL manager has EVER won 3 out of 5 years.

And furthermore, the American League Managers that have accomplished this were...
Joe Torre, Casey Stengal, Joe McCarthy, and Connie Mack.

Comparing their rosters of Hall of Famers and all-stars to what Bochy has had to work with, well--

Bochy's managing outshines all of those men.

Figuring that Bochy's best player is Buster Posey (who MAY trend eventually to a Hall of Fame player) (other than Posey, his position players NOT perennial all-star caliber players).
and Bochy's pitching staffs, While they have been dominant, have had three different top of the line starters.... for each WORLD SERIES run.

I honestly, can't think of a better NL Manager (who has had less to work with, and have the success he has had) better than Bochy.

757690
10-30-2014, 04:11 PM
Bochy also had a very impressive run as the Padres manager before he left for the Giants.

He easily is the best manager in the game right now.

westofyou
10-30-2014, 08:19 PM
John McGraw laughs at this notion, as does Durocher.

westofyou
10-30-2014, 08:20 PM
John McGraw laughs at this notion, as does Durocher. And maybe Frank Seele too

NeilHamburger
10-31-2014, 11:52 AM
In terms of modern day managers I think he is the best. Better than Torre, better than Cox.

I would argue he is the best manager of the last 30 years.

RedsBrick
11-01-2014, 05:40 AM
...and hey, let's don't forget our own. In 9 seasons in the NL, Sparky won 4 pennants, 2 WS and had a winning % of .596. Not shabby.

RedlegJake
11-02-2014, 10:49 AM
In terms of modern day managers I think he is the best. Better than Torre, better than Cox.

I would argue he is the best manager of the last 30 years.

And I would agree this is the parameter wherein this argument should reside. All time? How to compare deadball managers like Selee, or crossovers from deadball to the first great hitting era of the 20s like McGraw and Moran to modern day managers? You can't really. Too much has changed. I'd make the argument best manager since the start of free agency. Bochy has a really strong case for that accolade.

westofyou
11-02-2014, 02:15 PM
In terms of modern day managers I think he is the best. Better than Torre, better than Cox.

I would argue he is the best manager of the last 30 years.

I'd say he's equal to Cox, but I also think LaRussa is the best manager since FA, then Herzog a close 2nd

757690
11-02-2014, 03:21 PM
I'd say he's equal to Cox, but I also think LaRussa is the best manager since FA, then Herzog a close 2nd

Herzog is very underrated. He turned around two franchises. The 1985 I-70 series was a battle of two teams built by Herzog.

RedlegJake
11-02-2014, 08:54 PM
So the finalist for our "Best since FA began" list would be LaRussa, Herzog, Bochy, Anderson, Cox, Torre? The last three had very, very good teams. I'd even go so far as to say Cox under achieved given his rosters in a lot of those seasons. Torre was averagish at best with weaker rosters. His claim to fame is some powerfully built Yankee teams. Sparky had the BRM and did a very good job with Detroit. Herzog built winners in two cities and neither was a powerhouse roster, albeit good solid teams. Much as I personally dislike LaRussa, I can't deny he got results with a mixed bag of rosters - some years he had really good teams, others just decent but he got the most of them. Bochy is similar to Herzog in that he has had good, solid SF teams but certainly not powerhouse rosters to work with. I'd rank them:

1 Herzog, Bochy in a tie
2 La Russa
3 Anderson
4 Cox
5 Torre

Billy Budd
11-03-2014, 06:44 PM
First of all-- I will qualified that Bochy is the best NL Manager SINCE the inception of the American League,
so, if you choose to hang your hat on Frank Seele, be my guest.

I did think of John McGraw when making the statement about Bochy, my reasoning for saying that Bochy is/was better
than McGraw are for the same base reasons that many of you alluded to, but I will go into it a bit deeper.

1. From 1903-1932 McGraw won 10 National League pennants, and of those, he won 3 World Series. So, essentially, McGraw's
post-season series winning percentage was 30%.

2. McGraw's 1904-1905 team was anchored by arguably the best right handed pitcher of all time in Christy Mathewson, and
hall of famers Joe McGinnity and Rogers Bresnahan. He won the '05 Series, and lost the '04 Series.

3. McGraw's 1911-1913 teams all lost the World Series, even though, McGraw had two hall of fame pitchers in his
rotation (Mathewson and Marquard).

4. McGraw's 1921-1924 teams won two World Series, with the help of four hall of fame players in 1921-1923: High Pockets Kelly, Frankie
Frisch, Ross Youngs, and Dave Bancroft
*** Casey Stengel was also on these teams, but obviously he made it as a manager.
*** Travis Jackson was on the 22 and 23 teams, but was not a regular until 1923 (year they lost(
*** Bill Terry was on the 1923 team
*** Hack Wilson was on the 1923 team.

The 1924 team lost the World Series despite having SEVEN hall of famers on their team.
High Pockets Kelly, Frankie Frisch, Travis Jackson, Hack Wilson, Ross Youngs (starters)
Bill Terry, Freddie Lindstrom (reserves)

Essentially, McGraw with a plethora of talent to draw on... in the course of managing in 10 post season series, won a total of three
seven game series.

If you look at his 1920's teams, they are LOADED with talent, but it did not translate to post season titles.

------

Billy Budd
11-03-2014, 06:47 PM
Now, as some have pointed out.... Free Agency changes over a team almost, what every four years seemingly?

Bochy is 12-4 in post-season series. He has done it with primarily smoke and
mirrors. (Which why, yes I give him the nod OVER John McGraw,


1996 Bochy loses Division series 0-1
HOF CALIBER PLAYERS: Henderson (WELL PAST PRIME), Gwynn, Hoffman

1998 Bochy loses World Series 2-1
HOF CALIBER PLAYERS: Gwynn, Hoffman

2005 Bochy loses division series 0-1
HOF CALIBER PLAYERS: Hoffman

2006 Bochy loses division series 0-1
HOF CALIBER PLAYERS: Hoffman, Piazza (WELL PAST PRIME)

2010 Bochy wins World Series 3-0
HOF CALIBER PLAYERS: Posey?

2012 Bochy wins World Series 3-0
HOF CALIBER PLAYERS: Posey?

2014 Bochy wins World Series 4-0
HOF CALIBER PLAYERS: Posey?

Billy Budd
11-03-2014, 07:09 PM
In terms of modern day managers I think he is the best. Better than Torre, better than Cox.

I would argue he is the best manager of the last 30 years.

I agree wholeheartedly....

Bobby Cox post season record: 12-15 DESPITE having, on average, three hall of fame players per year.

1985 Toronto Lost ALCS 0-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: NONE

1991 Atlanta Lost WS 1-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine

1992 Atlanta lost WS 1-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine

1993 Atlanta lost NLCS 0-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, McGriff

1995 Atlanta wins WS 3-0
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, McGriff, Jones

1996 Atlanta lost WS 2-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, McGriff, Jones

1997 Atlanta lost NLCS 1-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, McGriff, Jones

1998 Atlanta lost NLCS 1-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Jones

1999 Atlanta lost WS 2-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Jones

2000 Atlanta lost NLDS 0-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Glavine, Maddux, Jones

2001 Atlanta lost NLCS 1-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Jones

2002 Atlanta lost NLDS 0-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Jones

2003 Atlanta lost NLDS 0-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Maddux, Jones, Sheffield

2004 Atlanta lost NLDS 0-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Jones

2005 Atlanta lost NLDS 0-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Smoltz, Jones

2010 Atlanta lost NLDS 0-1
HALL OF FAME CALIBER PLAYERS: Jones

Billy Budd
11-03-2014, 07:52 PM
Lastly, I guess the CLOSEST argument, in my mind would definitely come from LaRussa, in comparison to Bochy.... but, I would take Pujols in his prime everyday of the week and twice on Sunday over Posey.

------------------
Tony LaRussa 16-10 Post Season Record

1983 White Sox lost ALCS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Fisk

1988 A's lost WS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire, Eckersley, Parker

1989 A's win WS 2-0
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire, Henderson, Eckersley, Parker

1990 A's lost WS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire, Henderson, Eckersley

1992 A's lost ALCS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire, Henderson, Eckersley

1996 Cards lost NLCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Smith, Eckersley

2000 Cards lost NLCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire

2002 Cards lost NLCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2004 Cards lost WS 2-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2005 Cards lost NLCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2006 Cards win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2009 Cards lose NLDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2011 Cards win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

-----------
Joe Torre 17-9 Post Season record

1982 Atlanta lost NLCS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Niekro, Murphy

1996 Yankees win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Boggs, Raines, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

1997 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Boggs, Raines, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

1998 Yankees Win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Raines, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

1999 Yankees win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

2000 Yankees win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

2001 Yankees lose WS 2-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Mussina

2002 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Mussina

2003 Yankees lose WS 2-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Mussina

2004 Yankees lose ALCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Rodriguez, Posada, Rivera, Mussina

2005 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Rodriguez, Cano, Posada, Sheffield, Rivera, Mussina, Johnson

2006 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Rodriguez, Cano, Posada, Sheffield, Rivera, Mussina, Johnson

2007 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Rodriguez, Cano, Posada, Rivera, Mussina, Clemens, Pettitte

napalextus
11-04-2014, 10:44 AM
It is not really apt to compare Bochy's post season record with McGraw's. Bochy manages in an era of divisions and wild cards where the post season representation is greater than 25%. If you applied the constraints McGraw encountered then Bochy does not even have a post season appearance let alone three World Series wins.

The 1904 Giants did not loose the World Series, it was not played that season.

The 1911-13 Giants went up against two dynasty teams. The Philadelphia A's featured HOFs Eddie Collins, Frank Baker, Eddie Plank and Chief Bender. They won 3 WS in 4 years. The Boston Red Sox, 1912, featured HOFs Tris Speaker and Harry Hooper as well as HOF caliber Eddie Cicotte and Smoky Joe Wood. They won 4 WS in 7 years.

Big Red Smokey
11-07-2014, 12:59 AM
Only reason I'd ding him is cause the 2nd Wild Card is a joke and that's the only way they got in this year.

PaulyOH
11-20-2014, 05:21 PM
No love for Walter Alston in this managers discussion?

And I know he hasn't had near the postseason success as some of the modern guys mentioned, but I still think Davey Johnson is one of the smartest managers I've ever seen.

RedFanT
11-21-2014, 10:30 PM
Comparing their rosters of Hall of Famers and all-stars to what Bochy has had to work with, well-.

It's way too early to tell with those players on today's Giants' teams. In 20-30 years, if none of them pan out, go to the HOF, then you would have a better argument. Plus, Bochy has a huge advantage in that he manages in a large market team. In that regard, he's not much different than the other managers you're comparing him to. I'll put it this way, what impressed me about Bochy is what he did at San Diego, just making it to the World Series, which was much more impressive to me than winning 3 WS with a large market team who can afford to keep its players.

CrosleyField
12-01-2014, 01:18 PM
If not for a Scott Rolen error in 2012, they sure don't win it that year.

Pretty sure Bumgarner might end up being a HOFer.

RedsBaron
12-01-2014, 02:10 PM
First of all-- I will qualified that Bochy is the best NL Manager SINCE the inception of the American League,
so, if you choose to hang your hat on Frank Seele, be my guest.

I did think of John McGraw when making the statement about Bochy, my reasoning for saying that Bochy is/was better
than McGraw are for the same base reasons that many of you alluded to, but I will go into it a bit deeper.

1. From 1903-1932 McGraw won 10 National League pennants, and of those, he won 3 World Series. So, essentially, McGraw's
post-season series winning percentage was 30%.

2. McGraw's 1904-1905 team was anchored by arguably the best right handed pitcher of all time in Christy Mathewson, and
hall of famers Joe McGinnity and Rogers Bresnahan. He won the '05 Series, and lost the '04 Series.

3. McGraw's 1911-1913 teams all lost the World Series, even though, McGraw had two hall of fame pitchers in his
rotation (Mathewson and Marquard).

4. McGraw's 1921-1924 teams won two World Series, with the help of four hall of fame players in 1921-1923: High Pockets Kelly, Frankie
Frisch, Ross Youngs, and Dave Bancroft
*** Casey Stengel was also on these teams, but obviously he made it as a manager.
*** Travis Jackson was on the 22 and 23 teams, but was not a regular until 1923 (year they lost(
*** Bill Terry was on the 1923 team
*** Hack Wilson was on the 1923 team.

The 1924 team lost the World Series despite having SEVEN hall of famers on their team.
High Pockets Kelly, Frankie Frisch, Travis Jackson, Hack Wilson, Ross Youngs (starters)
Bill Terry, Freddie Lindstrom (reserves)

Essentially, McGraw with a plethora of talent to draw on... in the course of managing in 10 post season series, won a total of three
seven game series.

If you look at his 1920's teams, they are LOADED with talent, but it did not translate to post season titles.

------
As Napalextus pointed out, McGraw's Giants did not lose the 1904 World Series-it was not played.
The arguments about how McGraw should have won more World Series because of all the future Hall of Famers on his rosters is also misleading. Yes, Roger Bresnahan of the 1904-05 Giants was elected to the HOF but this was probably a mistake; he wouldn't make any reasonable list of the top 25 catchers ever.
Rube Marquard of the 1911-13 Giants is another member of the HOF whose election was a mistake, and in f airness to McGraw consideration should be given to the quality of the teams who defeated the Giants in those three World Series.
Even more misleading is the citation to "SEVEN" Hall of Famers on the 1921-24 Giants. High Pockets Kelly would be near the top of any list of members of the HOF who should not be there; he was good player, maybe equal to Lee May, but the Big Bopper was no Hall of Famer and nor was Kelly. Bill Terry, .400 season and all, was not overwhelmingly qualified for the HOF, but, more importantly, while Terry was a member of the 1923 and 1924 Giants he was not the .400 hitter he later became. In 1923 Terry played all of 3 games and had 7 at bats. Similarly while Hack Wilson was on the roster of the 1923 Giants he also played only 3 games with 10 at bats. Fred Lindstorm, whose induction into the HOF was absurd, wasn't even on the 1923 Giants. In 1924 Terry, Lindstrom and Wilson were all on the team, and Hack Wilson did decently, hitting .295 with 10 HRs in 383 at bats. Terry hit .239 in 163 at bats and Lindstrom hit .253 in 70 at bats. Ross Youngs early death was tragic, but Youngs is another member of the HOF who should not be there. Travis Jackson and Dave Bancroft are two more border line at best members of the HOF. The only member of the 1921-24 Giants who clearly deserves to be in the HOF and who also performed at a near peak level was Frisch.

PadsFS
12-01-2014, 04:45 PM
If not for a Scott Rolen error in 2012, they sure don't win it that year.

Pretty sure Bumgarner might end up being a HOFer.


That's really sad to be reminded of.

Billy Budd
12-01-2014, 06:02 PM
RedsBaron--
Thanks for the insightful input. Are they in the hall of fame or are they not in the hall of fame?
I appreciate the candor, though.

I apologize for the 1904 oversight, but again, I stand by my research. Did McGraw win an overwhelming majority of his World Series appearances? The answer is.... no.

As far as CrosleyField--
Let's see Bumgartner put together a decent 15 year career before we put him in the Hall of Fame.

CrosleyField
12-02-2014, 10:10 AM
didn't say he was right now, might end up there.

RedlegJake
12-02-2014, 12:37 PM
I see this as kind of one of those "Is Ted Williams or Joe DiMaggio best" arguments. Either one is the right option. McGraw was a great manager, no doubt, and he had an outsized influence on the game, too, from his playing days until he ended his managerial career. Bochy is a modern wizard, imo, and one of the 3 or 4 best managers of the FA era. Anderson, Cox, LaRussa, Bochy? 1 or 2 others maybe. I'd take any of them. Bill McKechnie was another manager with a pretty good record - took three different teams to pennants, 2 Series titles but he was definitely tied to how good the players he had were. He also managed some last place finishers.

RedsBaron
12-03-2014, 07:34 AM
RedsBaron--
Thanks for the insightful input. Are they in the hall of fame or are they not in the hall of fame?
I appreciate the candor, though.



Thanks. I just believe that listing the number of eventual Hall of Famers a team has as a measure of how great the team was can be very misleading. As one of many examples, a team with Warren Spahn and Yogi Berra would appear to have a terrific battery, with the winningest southpaw ever and arguably the greatest catcher ever (I do rank Bench ahead of Yogi). The 1965 Mets had that very combination but the Mets still finished last. While the Mets had the duo, Spahn was 44 years old and went 4-12 with a 4.36 ERA and an 81 ERA plus. 40 year old Berra hit .222 in 9 at bats.
McGraw's teams did go 3-6 in World Series, a winning percentage of .333. Yes, that isn't terrific, but that isn't the whole story either. I think Tony LaRussa, as much as I dislike him, was probably MLB's best manager over the last 30 years or so. At one point, before he went to St. Louis, LaRussa's teams had a .333 percentage in World Series play, 1-2. Earl Weaver was a magnificent manager with the AL's Orioles, but his teams went 1-3 in World Series play, a .250 percentage.

RedsBaron
12-03-2014, 07:46 AM
No love for Walter Alston in this managers discussion?


One of the accomplishments of Alston that has always impressed me was his ability to win titles over three different decades with various types of teams. When he became manager of the Dodgers before the 1954 season, Brooklyn was a powerhouse, with both good pitching and a dominant offense. In the seven seasons prior to 1954 Brooklyn had won four NL pennants, lost a fifth pennant in a playoff (1951) and a sixth pennant on the final day of the season (1950), but had won no World Series. In Alston's second season in Brooklyn the Dodgers finally won the 1955 World Series, with a slugging lineup lead by Duke Snider and Roy Campanella. The aging Dodgers repeated their pennant in 1956, although they lost a 7 game World Series.
However, by 1959, in their second year in Los Angeles, the Dodgers were a much different team. Snider and Gil Hodges were still there, but not as healthy or as productive, while future Hall of Famers Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale were not yet as dominant, but as LA transitioned into being a more pitching oriented team Alston's team somehow brought home a World Championship even though rival Milwaukee, with Hank Aaron, Eddie Mathews and Warren Spahn all in their primes, both outscored the Dodgers and allowed fewer runs than LA in the regular season.
Alston's Dodgers won two more World Series in 1963 and 1965, along with a NL pennant in 1966. Those teams were almost polar opposites from the slugging Boys of Summer of the 1950s, based upon dominant pitching with an offense largely centered around stolen bases and bunting.
Alston's Dodgers captured another NL pennant in 1974, managing to nose out a rather good rival in the Big Red Machine.

RedsBaron
12-03-2014, 08:18 AM
I do believe that Bochy is the best manager in MLB at the moment, he is odds on to eventually make the HOF and I wish the Reds had him. However I also believe it is way, way too early to name him as the greatest NL manger ever, over McGraw, Alston, Sparky, LaRussa, et al.
If we were having this discussion in 1944 I wonder if we would be considering if Billy Southworth was the greatest NL manager ever. Southworth's fast closing Cardinals went 97-56 in 1941, finishing just behind a terrific Brooklyn team, and then reeled off three straight NL pennants in 1942, 1943 and 1944, going 106-48, 105-49 and 105-49, winning the World Series in '42 and '44.
Southworth left St. Louis after 1945, won another NL pennant with the Boston Braves in 1948, and finally made the HOF in 2008. He wasn't the greatest NL manager ever, but, boy, in 1944 he sure looked as if maybe he was.
If Bochy puts together another decade or so like the last five years, then he will have an excellent argument as the greatest NL manager ever, but it is too early. Who's to say he will ever manage another World Champion? Right now he is tied with McGraw, Sparky, LaRussa, et al, with three World Championships, and behind Alston's four.

dogersuck
12-04-2014, 12:16 AM
Lastly, I guess the CLOSEST argument, in my mind would definitely come from LaRussa, in comparison to Bochy.... but, I would take Pujols in his prime everyday of the week and twice on Sunday over Posey.

------------------
Tony LaRussa 16-10 Post Season Record

1983 White Sox lost ALCS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Fisk

1988 A's lost WS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire, Eckersley, Parker

1989 A's win WS 2-0
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire, Henderson, Eckersley, Parker

1990 A's lost WS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire, Henderson, Eckersley

1992 A's lost ALCS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire, Henderson, Eckersley

1996 Cards lost NLCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Smith, Eckersley

2000 Cards lost NLCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: McGwire

2002 Cards lost NLCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2004 Cards lost WS 2-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2005 Cards lost NLCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2006 Cards win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2009 Cards lose NLDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

2011 Cards win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber Players: Pujols

-----------
Joe Torre 17-9 Post Season record

1982 Atlanta lost NLCS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Niekro, Murphy

1996 Yankees win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Boggs, Raines, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

1997 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Boggs, Raines, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

1998 Yankees Win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Raines, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

1999 Yankees win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

2000 Yankees win WS 3-0
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Cone

2001 Yankees lose WS 2-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Mussina

2002 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Mussina

2003 Yankees lose WS 2-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Clemens, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Mussina

2004 Yankees lose ALCS 1-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Rodriguez, Posada, Rivera, Mussina

2005 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Rodriguez, Cano, Posada, Sheffield, Rivera, Mussina, Johnson

2006 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Rodriguez, Cano, Posada, Sheffield, Rivera, Mussina, Johnson

2007 Yankees lose ALDS 0-1
Hall of Fame Caliber players: Jeter, Rodriguez, Cano, Posada, Rivera, Mussina, Clemens, Pettitte

Pujols prime was pretty short

RedEye
12-04-2014, 06:37 PM
Pujols prime was pretty short

Huh? He put up consistent HOF-level numbers for over a decade starting at age 21.

Assembly Hall
12-06-2014, 03:02 PM
Just out of curiosity for you research hounds.......how do Tommy Lasorda and Jim Leyland measure up?

westofyou
12-07-2014, 04:59 PM
Lasorda doesn't rank too high, he inherited a good team, ride Fernando to a WS, rode Orel to a WS then never did much again.

He's more Charlie Dressen than Leo Durocher

RedlegJake
12-08-2014, 10:06 AM
Yeah, LaSorda gets a blue star, that's about all. Leyland has a lot more chops than LaSorda. 3 consecutive division championships with 2 different teams, in different leagues. Division titles with three teams. A WS title with Miami and he got there a couple more times, losing. Leyland probably belongs on the short list of great modern managers, Tommy doesn't.

RedsBaron
12-08-2014, 02:42 PM
Lasorda doesn't rank too high, he inherited a good team, ride Fernando to a WS, rode Orel to a WS then never did much again.

He's more Charlie Dressen than Leo Durocher

Lasorda certainly had some Dressen in him. When I think of Lasorda I think of him constantly name dropping Sinatra and other celebrities he claimed to have as friends and of him yammering on about "Dodger Blue." I never cared for him.
His HOF case is marginal but maybe a little better than I gave him credit for. In two decades as Dodger manager he won 8 division titles, four pennants and two World Series. He never had the talent available to him that Dressen did as Dodger manager in Brooklyn. His career record was 1599-1439, a .526 winning percentage as manager.

Assembly Hall
12-08-2014, 05:19 PM
Good stuff fellas. Thanks for the comments.

RedsBaron
12-08-2014, 05:52 PM
Lasorda doesn't rank too high, he inherited a good team, ride Fernando to a WS, rode Orel to a WS then never did much again.

He's more Charlie Dressen than Leo Durocher
WOY's comment about Lasorda being more Dressen than Durocher got me to thinking more about each of them.
Bill James once wrote about how Dressen had one foot into the HOF before his ego caused him to throw it all away. He became manager of Brooklyn before the 1951 season. In '51 Dressen's Dodgers famously lost the NL playoff on Bobby Thompson's HR ("The Giants win the pennant! The Giants win the pennant!"), but Brooklyn still had a good record, 97-60. Despite the collapse in 1951 Brooklyn came back to win back-to-back NL pennants in 1952 and 1953, with records of 96-57 and 105-49, although they lost the World Series each year to the Yankees. Dressen had the team that could have carried him to continued success, but he then demanded a multi-year contract. Walter O'Malley refused. Dressen quit. Although he later managed the Senators, Braves and Tigers, Dressen never managed another pennant winner. His career mark, including time as the Reds manager in the 1930s, was 1008-973.

RedsBaron
12-08-2014, 06:10 PM
As for Durocher, I really wonder if he deserved induction into the HOF. His career record is good, 2008-1709, with a .540 winning percentage, but in a 24 year managerial career Leo the Lip won only 3 pennants and one World Series. His pennant winners were all memorable, with the 1941 Dodgers going 100-54, the 1951 Giants making up 13 1/2 games to catch the Dodgers and win the NL playoff immortalized by the above call of Russ Hodges, and the 1954 Giants with Willie Mays and "The Catch" sweeping the Indians in the World Series. Leo also had the 1942 Dodgers who went 104-50 but finished second to the Cardinals.
However Leo had a number of failings. The Dodgers gave away home field advantage in the 1946 NL playoffs, which they lost to St. Louis. The 1969 Cubs infamously blew an 8 game lead to the Mets and the NL East crown. Leo himself had a checkered personal life, including being suspended for the entire 1947 season, which meant that he was not there for Jackie Robinson's debut season. In "The Boys of Summer" Roger Kahn related someone else's evaluation of Leo, which went something like this: "Leo falls out of a boat and is about to be eaten by a shark. You jump into the ocean and save Leo's life but in the process you lose your own leg to the shark. The next day you and Leo start out even."
Leo managed two glamorous teams in the Dodgers and the Giants at the height of NYC being the baseball capital of the world. He hung out with movie stars. He told stories. He was controversial. He had a great relationship with the young Willie Mays, whom Leo claimed cried when Leo told him he was leaving the Giants. I really do not think he was any better manger than was Billy Martin.