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letsgojunior
07-06-2003, 01:15 PM
In exchange for Scott Dunn. Just announced on the broadcast.

CougarQuest
07-06-2003, 01:16 PM
They just mentioned that the Reds traded minor leaguer Scott Dunn for Jimenez from the White Sox and he will take WMP spot on the roster

JaxRed
07-06-2003, 01:16 PM
The people who predicted this one were right on.

Golgafrinchan
07-06-2003, 01:19 PM
Wow. I'm very happy about this. I've been a fan of Jimenez's for awhile, and after the White Sox designated him for assignment I was trying to figure out what teams would try to get him. For some reason the Reds never crossed my mind, but considering their need for a second baseman it should've been pretty obvious. I like this move a lot.

Candy Cummings
07-06-2003, 01:20 PM
Sure...not much to lose here.

wolfboy
07-06-2003, 01:21 PM
Hey Jax,
Do you have a link for a thread on that? I've been away from the board for the last few days. I couldn't find a thread about Jiminez anywhere.

westofyou
07-06-2003, 01:22 PM
Interesting bit on him on BP last week.

Maybe we should keep him away from Felo when/if he returns?


==========================================
Postscript: The Sox designated Jimenez for assignment Wednesday, a move that appears to make little sense. Even assuming he wasn't going to play much in the wake of the Alomar pickup, he had value as insurance, as a part-time third baseman and top-notch backup infielder. Jimenez was an unpopular player in San Diego, however, and as well as he played for the Sox, didnít endear himself to this set of teammates either, which was clearly a factor in this decision. Whether this warrants removing him from the roster is a difficult thing to know from the outside.

Williams has 10 days to turn Jimenez into something the Sox can use. Given the number of teams he'd help at either middle infield position, he should be in good position to extract talent for Jimenez. The questions about the infielder's interpersonal skills, and the industry's overwhelming reluctance to acquire players with lousy reps, may keep Williams from getting value for him.

http://premium.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2063

CougarQuest
07-06-2003, 01:23 PM
D'Angelo Jimenez, 25 yrs old, Switch hitting, leadoff hitter, 2B who plays 3rd and SS also, $345,000

2003
271 AB
11 DBL
5 TPL
7 HR
26 RBI
32 BB
46 K
4 SB
3 CS
.255 AVG
.332 OBP
.410 SLG

JaxRed
07-06-2003, 01:28 PM
I'm not crazy about this trade at first glance. What does Jiminez give us that we don't have?

He's a light hitting, erratic fielding MI that is out of options and appears to be on the verge of being Arb eligible.

geo_j
07-06-2003, 01:30 PM
Unless the Reds are planing another trade this makes little since. Olmeda is doing the job. Jimenez has a poor track record. and he is not a SS but a second baseman third baseman type. Now Scott Dunn is nothing special, but I just don't see that this helps us at all. Basically we traded Scott Dunn for someone the White Sox was willing to release.

LexingtonRedsFan
07-06-2003, 01:30 PM
The curious part to me is that I just assumed with Wily Mo going on the DL, that White would be called up, but with the trade for Jimenez and I believe I saw on here somewhere that White went to AAA for rehab, who is going to go when White's rehab assignment is over??? Reith?? Doesnt he still have options??

BigRed75
07-06-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by LexingtonRedsFan
The curious part to me is that I just assumed with Wily Mo going on the DL, that White would be called up, but with the trade for Jimenez and I believe I saw on here somewhere that White went to AAA for rehab, who is going to go when White's rehab assignment is over??? Reith?? Doesnt he still have options??

Reistma will probably be heading to the DL. My question is, what happens when Merker comes back?

CougarQuest
07-06-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by wolfboy
Hey Jax,
Do you have a link for a thread on that? I've been away from the board for the last few days. I couldn't find a thread about Jiminez anywhere.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13397&highlight=jimenez

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13352&highlight=jimenez

wolfboy
07-06-2003, 01:43 PM
Thanks CQ!

LoganBuck
07-06-2003, 01:47 PM
Why trade for the guy when he will probably be available as a waiver pickup later this week. Why trade any pitching for another run of the mill middle infielder? WHY?

Golgafrinchan
07-06-2003, 01:47 PM
How about this:
D'Angelo Jimenez was born on 21 December, 1977 and has been in and out of the Majors since 1999.

Scott Dunn was born on 23 May, 1978 and is in AA.

They're five months apart in age. In terms of value, the Reds definitely got the better end of the deal. Jimenez was a top prospect until his car accident four years ago, and from time to time now he still shows signs of becoming a good hitter again. This year he was great in April, mediocre in May, and awful in June. He's someone I'd be willing to take a chance on.

Golgafrinchan
07-06-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by LoganBuck
Why trade for the guy when he will probably be available as a waiver pickup later this week. Why trade any pitching for another run of the mill middle infielder? WHY?
There's no way Jimenez would last to the Reds in the waiver order. If the Tigers didn't grab him I'd be quite surprised.

wolfboy
07-06-2003, 01:50 PM
There's no way Jimenez would last to the Reds in the waiver order. If the Tigers didn't grab him I'd be quite surprised.

My first reaction was the same as LoganBuck, but you're right. Wouldn't have lasted on waivers. Definately a low risk move on the Reds part.

JaxRed
07-06-2003, 01:55 PM
Scott Dunn was putting up some very nice stats:

Dunn, Scott 3- 2 3.79

Innings: 40.1 Hits: 31

K's 54 Walks: 16

His supposed weakness has always been walks, but he's done very well with that this year.

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 01:58 PM
Reds get infielder Jimenez from Sox for minor leaguer


July 6, 2003
CINCINNATI (AP) -- The Reds tried to strengthen their bench Sunday by acquiring infielder D'Angelo Jimenez from the Chicago White Sox for a minor league pitcher.

Jimenez, 25, was designated for assignment on Wednesday, after the White Sox overhauled their roster by acquiring outfielder Carl Everett and second baseman Roberto Alomar.

The Reds were looking for someone to replace outfielder Wily Mo Pena, who went on the disabled list Saturday with a stained hamstring. Pena was a seldom-used player off the bench, going 3-for-35 with 15 strikeouts.

ADVERTISEMENT


Jimenez will be a backup who can play third base, second and shortstop.

``We have some guys on the bench that strike out a lot, and this gives us a choice of a guy who can put the ball in play,'' general manager Jim Bowden said.

The Reds already have Barry Larkin, Juan Castro and Ray Olmedo as middle infielders.

Jimenez hit .255 with seven homers and 26 RBIs with the White Sox. He'll join the team Monday in Houston.

The White Sox got right-hander Scott Dunn, 25, who was 3-2 with eight saves and a 3.79 ERA in 31 relief appearances for Double-A Chattanooga.


Updated on Sunday, Jul 6, 2003 1:36 pm EDT


:beerme: :thumbup:

CougarQuest
07-06-2003, 01:59 PM
Scott Dunn in 2003 for Chat. Lookouts

31 games
40.1 IP
3-2
8 Saves
3.79 ERA
16 BB
54 K
6 WP

6 wild pitches in only 40.1 innings of work?!

Golgafrinchan
07-06-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Colorado Red
The Reds already have Barry Larkin, Juan Castro and Ray Olmedo as middle infielders.
Larkin: .287/.353/.397
Castro: .234/.258/.354
Olmedo: .314/.314/.357

Jimenez: .255/.332/.410

I sincerely hope the Reds don't actually play Castro and Olmedo over Jimenez.

CougarQuest
07-06-2003, 02:12 PM
Wonder who the Reds will put in AA?

It would be nice to hear they announce the signing of Marc Cornell

Oxilon
07-06-2003, 02:16 PM
Hopefully he can fill that viod at the lead off position for the meantime...

djsauter
07-06-2003, 02:23 PM
Hopefully this works out, but I can't see it doing much. The Reds need a better hitter at 2B than this guy. We already have Castro, who hits .250, and is a great defensive player. Unless this guy can hit over .250, I don't see what's so special.

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 02:24 PM
CQ " Wonder who the Reds will put in AA?" How about Nathan Cotton, Josh Daws (hasn't been at High A very long) or Thomas Pauly??

JaxRed
07-06-2003, 02:27 PM
Pauley would be jumping 2 levels. It's time to send Howington to AA. (and time for Basham to go down, try relief, rest his arm, something)

Bill
07-06-2003, 02:27 PM
Dunn failed at starting and has been mediocre from the pen and this a repeat season at Chattanooga. Great stuff but it seems doubtful he will make it over the hump. Without checking his stats, I am guessing he is prone to the longball.

A very good deal. That leaves you with 3 possible middle infielders for next year. He has some plate discipline and a little pop. Good call Red Leader.

PuffyPig
07-06-2003, 02:28 PM
The difference between this guy and the others?????

He has some power and walks. And that's a huge difference.

Bill
07-06-2003, 02:30 PM
My guess to move up to fill the spot in the pen would be Culp or Brannon.

JaxRed
07-06-2003, 02:34 PM
I did check his stats. He's only given up 3 homers all year. And obviously he has not been mediocre in relief.

Well over 1 strikeout per inning, well under 1 hit per inning. I assume White Sox were given a choice of several minor leaguers. I can see why they chose Dunn.

PuffyPig
07-06-2003, 02:41 PM
According to BA. Dunn was one of our lowest rated prospects out of 60 graded.

KYRedsFan
07-06-2003, 02:42 PM
Great addition, immediately the team's starting 2B.

JaxRed
07-06-2003, 02:45 PM
"According to BA. Dunn was one of our lowest rated prospects out of 60 graded."

And Basham is one of the highest. They are done before the season. In the meantime, Basham has fallen apart and Dunn has had a great year.

I can see why they would want him. When I was talking to the scout from Milwaukee earlier this year he thought very highly of Dunn.

RFS62
07-06-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by KYRedsFan
Great addition, immediately the team's starting 2B.

Pic just quoted Bowden saying he's the 25th man on the roster, and that it doesn't change Castro or Rey's status.

KYRedsFan
07-06-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by RFS62
Pic just quoted Bowden saying he's the 25th man on the roster, and that it doesn't change Castro or Rey's status.

If Bowden was quoted, that means his lips were moving.... :evilgrin:

RFS62
07-06-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by KYRedsFan
If Bowden was quoted, that means his lips were moving.... :evilgrin:

Good point.

Raisor
07-06-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by RFS62
Pic just quoted Bowden saying he's the 25th man on the roster, and that it doesn't change Castro or Rey's status.

Good grief.

Jimenez is so much better then Castro, it makes my head spin thinking about it.

J "Cooper"
07-06-2003, 02:50 PM
Sounds like the Reds are going to use him as a 25 th player which seems odd cause he's better than Castro or Rany.

Seems to be a good defender at 2nd, looks like he struggles a little at SS.

Castro is a sink hole offensively.

Jax: had no clue that Dunn's numbers were that good. You probalby saw him pitch --does he throw hard or does he have a good breaking ball out pitch?

At first glance it seems to be a very even trade....

KYRedsFan
07-06-2003, 02:51 PM
Bowden just paying a little respect for the servicable job Castro has done this year. He's an impossible start over Jimenez, just don't do it.

JaxRed
07-06-2003, 02:53 PM
Seen him pitch several times. He's a fireballer. Control has always been his issue. He's mostly tamed it as his walks have come way down.

As Couger pointed out, 6 WP's indicates he still has to face the demons.

This is actually his third year in AA. And his best by far.

I've talked to him several times and he is really a good guy. Hope this works out well for him.

Bill
07-06-2003, 03:01 PM
Right, I forgot, a 3.79 era is dominating in your book. As a closer in his 3rd season, I would expect more than that if he were a true prospect. He might not be prone to giving up the longball but he must be prone to giving up the big hit considering his hits allowed is low.

Anytime you can get a player whom will contribute in the majors for a guy in his 3rd year of AA, there is no pause.

princeton
07-06-2003, 03:01 PM
I've propped Dunn for a bullpen role for a long, LONG time. Since the Reds finally moved him there at the end of last year, he's done OK

but righty reliever is a strength in the organization, and Dunn's never going to have the mechanics to close. In trade, he lands an organization weakness: a middle infielder with leadoff potential? Sweet.

BTW, I seem to recall Jiminez suffering a terrible injury a few years ago that almost cost him his career... let's put the google-searchers on that case

CougarQuest
07-06-2003, 03:02 PM
On July 5th, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported that the Cards were actively interested in getting Jimenez from the White Sox.

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 03:03 PM
I read on another board that Jimenez's batting average was in the .290s for April and May. In June his BA was around .190 and that pulled his overall BA down to .255. He use to be thought of as a can't miss prospect, good fielder at second and third, very strong arm, good speed, can play 3 positions in the infield & has a low $$ contract.
Way to go Jimbo, lets see what he can do!!! Now lets sign Dustin H. to a contract.

KYRedsFan
07-06-2003, 03:04 PM
he almost died in a car accident IIRC. Him and Mateo, the "crash" brothers. :p

Yup, in 99 evidently. Soriano huh?

Scouting Report

2002 Season
Two years in a row, D'Angelo Jimenez has been traded at midseason. In 2002 he went from San Diego, where he had spent a year as a regular, to the White Sox. He started 82 of 88 games for the Padres before the All-Star break, including 30 at third base, but was traded to the Sox for two minor leaguers on July 12. He regrouped in the minors and reached Chicago in late August. He played well enough to put himself into the Sox' plans for 2003.


Hitting, Baserunning & Defense
Jimenez, who was rated ahead of Alfonso Soriano as a Yankees prospect before a life-threatening car accident after the 1999 season, is a professional hitter who seldom gets himself out chasing bad pitches. He's a switch-hitter with some power from the left side of the plate. He has decent speed but hasn't emerged as a basestealing threat. Once rated the top defensive shortstop in the Triple-A International League, Jimenez was erratic there with San Diego and spent most of last season at second and third base.


2003 Outlook
Jimenez should be a regular with the Sox, either at second base or shortstop. He's a possibility for the leadoff spot.

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 03:05 PM
Princeton I think he was in a bad auto accident a few years ago.

Buckeye33
07-06-2003, 03:10 PM
Wrong thread. Blah

princeton
07-06-2003, 03:12 PM
that's right-- broke his neck, IIRC

the Reds often roll the dice on attitudes/reputations-- from Jose Guillen to Toe Nash, now to D'Angelo. Me, I'm most interested in how the guy performs in big games... if only we can play a few this year.

westofyou
07-06-2003, 03:19 PM
Here's a BP year by year look at him (sans this season)



2002

A so-so defensive player, Jimenez is already a legitimate major-league leadoff hitter. The Padres were concerned enough about his defense at shortstop to pick up Ramon Vazquez from the Mariners, and will move Jimenez to second base. This decreases his value and increases the risk that he'll get injured, so his future isn't as bright as it looked late last year. He should still be a valuable player.

2001

D'Angelo Jimenez is a finalist in the "Best Season After an Off-Season Broken Neck" balloting. Forget the value of the performance and just tip your cap to him for playing so soon after suffering the injury in a January car accident. Healthy again, he's one of the better prospects in baseball. Jimenez will be with the Yankees this year; whether he plays second base or third base is yet to be determined.

2000

Jimenez would have been playing shortstop and batting second by June for about 25 other teams. He isnít going to hit for the power that the Trinity does, but he actually does some things better than they do, including play defense. With Jeter being Jeter, and Knoblauch being expensive and difficult to move, Jimenezís first shot at a job is likely to come in another organization. Heís a superior talent who deserves an opportunity.

1999

A fantastic example of a player making a slow, steady climb through the system, improving at every level, and now ready to... to... spend a lot of time at Columbus. Jimenez, like Gomez, is blocked, with the infielders in Yankee Stadium under contract through at least 2001. For his sake and ours, I hope he's traded, because he could be a special player. There's 30 major league infields; based solely on expected 1999 production, I'd probably take Johnson/Gomez/Jimenez/Lowell over a half-dozen of them.

1998

Jimenez suffered a broken foot in midsummer, but that was about the only thing that went wrong for him this year. He continued to develop in all areas, particularly his plate discipline and glovework. As expected, heís gaining power with age. The Yanks have a logjam up the middle, so Jimenezí future may be in another organization. Why he wasnít selected in the Expansion Draft is an absolute mystery.

1997

Scouts rave about Jimenezí tools, but the walks, for an 18-year-old, are what stand out. Heís still got a lot of growing to do, and will play at high-A Tampa in 1997. Still two or three years away, but will begin showing up on radars this year. With Jeter at short and Rudy Gomez at second ahead of him, a lack of good third base prospects in the organization may eventually move him to third.

Raisor
07-06-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by KYRedsFan
Bowden just paying a little respect for the servicable job Castro has done this year. He's an impossible start over Jimenez, just don't do it.


Castro hasn't been anywhere close to "servicable", he's been horrible.

If Castro gets any starts over Jimenez, then everyone in the organization should be fired, including the team barber.

A team of nine Jimenez's would score 779 runs in a season. A team of Castros would score 437.

Assuming they both had the same pitching staff, that's a difference of 38 wins.


This is a huge upgrade for the team, if only they'll play him

KYRedsFan
07-06-2003, 03:27 PM
Servicable just being polite. If he's not the starting 2B in Houston from day one, yes, heads should roll. JB with another fine move that will pay dividends only if he's not jerked around by this fine organization we all cheer for.

wheels
07-06-2003, 03:30 PM
How does he compare to Orlando Hudson?

Just by memory, he sort of reminds me of him.

Golgafrinchan
07-06-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by wheels
How does he compare to Orlando Hudson?

Just by memory, he sort of reminds me of him.
As far as I know, he has yet to refer to any GM's as a pimp...

wheels
07-06-2003, 03:33 PM
How funny was that?

I really wish they would have taken him of Lopez.

Jimbo would consider that a compliment.:lol: :hat: :hat:

CougarQuest
07-06-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Colorado Red
I read on another board that Jimenez's batting average was in the .290s are for April and May. In June his BA was around .190 and that pulled his overall BA down to 255. He use to be thought of as a can't miss prospect, good fielder, very strong arm, good speed, can play 3 positions in the infield & has a low $$ contract.
Way to go Jimbo, lets see what he can do!!!

April 2003
.297 Avg, .396 OBP, .549 SLG

May 2003
.294 AVG, .375 OBP, .365 SLG

June 2003
.187 AVG, .235 OBP, .330 SLG

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 04:02 PM
Thanks CougarQuest for the STATS for April, May & June. Where can you find these MLB STATS??

Raisor
07-06-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Colorado Red
Thanks CougarQuest for the STATS for April, May & June. Where can you find these MLB STATS??


espn.com

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 04:04 PM
Sunday, July 6

Reds acquire Jimenez from White Sox

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press


CINCINNATI -- The Cincinnati Reds tried to strengthen their bench Sunday by acquiring infielder D'Angelo Jimenez from the Chicago White Sox for a minor league pitcher.

Jimenez, 25, was designated for assignment on Wednesday, after the White Sox overhauled their roster by acquiring outfielder Carl Everett and second baseman Roberto Alomar.

The Reds were looking for someone to replace outfielder Wily Mo Pena, who went on the disabled list Saturday with a stained hamstring. Pena was a seldom-used player off the bench, going 3-for-35 with 15 strikeouts.

Jimenez will be a backup who can play third base, second and shortstop.

"We have some guys on the bench that strike out a lot, and this gives us a choice of a guy who can put the ball in play," general manager Jim Bowden said.

The Reds already have Barry Larkin, Juan Castro and Ray Olmedo as middle infielders.

Jimenez hit .255 with seven homers and 26 RBIs with the White Sox. He'll join the team Monday in Houston.

The White Sox got right-hander Scott Dunn, 25, who was 3-2 with eight saves and a 3.79 ERA in 31 relief appearances for Double-A Chattanooga.

Raisor
07-06-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Colorado Red
Sunday, July 6

Reds acquire Jimenez from White Sox

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press



Jimenez will be a backup who can play third base, second and shortstop.



Good grief.

There's absolutly no reason that he should not be the starting 2B.

Krusty
07-06-2003, 04:14 PM
I have to say I'm not jumping hoops over this trade. It isn't like we picked up Castillo from the Marlins. I wonder how much of an upgrade Jimenez will be with Castro and Olmedo playing second base? Add to that Freel who is back playing at Louisville.

Of course, if the Reds don't end this four-game losing streak by putting it to Houston come this week, it won't matter who we acquire.

Raisor
07-06-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Krusty
I have to say I'm not jumping hoops over this trade. It isn't like we picked up Castillo from the Marlins. I wonder how much of an upgrade Jimenez will be with Castro and Olmedo playing second base? .

I've already posted what kind of upgrade Jimenez is over Castro.

Would you like me to also figure out what kind of upgrade he is over Olmedo?

Krusty
07-06-2003, 04:21 PM
I doubt Jimenez will have that much of an impact which will turn this club around.

wheels
07-06-2003, 04:21 PM
Plus, they don't have to worry about him bolting as soon as the season ends.

This is the type of deal that Bowden needs to make a more frequent occurrence. This guy is going to be a good, cheap fit for a few years.

KYRedsFan
07-06-2003, 04:22 PM
Speaking of hoops, Jimenez will run circles around anything Castro or Olmedo can bring to this team.

Golgafrinchan
07-06-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Krusty
I doubt Jimenez will have that much of an impact which will turn this club around.
Do you really think Babe Ruth circa 1921 would be enough to turn this club around?

Krusty
07-06-2003, 04:24 PM
Once again, the Reds trade for a player based on money. Just once, I wish a trade was made on talent and talent only.

KYRedsFan
07-06-2003, 04:25 PM
Talent, this guy has more talent than any MI likely in the system.

Krusty
07-06-2003, 04:27 PM
If he is so talented, why did the White Sox give him the boot and trade for Roberto Alomar in a rental trade?

westofyou
07-06-2003, 04:28 PM
I wish a trade was made on talent and talent only.

No you want a giant 1950's circa 15 person, 3 team trade that spits out 650,00 threads and responses.

Sorry...... those days are gone, Frank Lane is dead.

Grab at the scraps and make due.

Oxilon
07-06-2003, 04:28 PM
Not to mention the Yankees and the Padres...

wolfboy
07-06-2003, 04:28 PM
Once again, the Reds trade for a player based on money. Just once, I wish a trade was made on talent and talent only.

He's talented, and he's cheap. What is wrong with that? You'd rather have a slap hitting, expensive (in what we'd give up) 2B that will walk at the end of the year? He's worlds better than Castro. I just don't get it.

Krusty
07-06-2003, 04:32 PM
If he is so damn good, why did the White Sox acquire Alomar?

KYRedsFan
07-06-2003, 04:37 PM
The same white sox that gave up Kip Wells and Josh Fogg? That team? That group of talent evaluators?

This was the ultimate in buy low from JB.

Golgafrinchan
07-06-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Krusty
If he is so damn good, why did the White Sox acquire Alomar?
Because Kenny Williams is not exactly a high-quality Major League GM.

Or maybe the White Sox felt that by going after a "big name" player, more fans would show up to the game.

Alomar's OPS:
2002: .707
2003: .704

Jimenez's OPS:
2002: .677
2003: .742

Please show me how having Alomar is demonstrably better than having Jimenez, especially when including their differences in salary.

Krusty
07-06-2003, 04:42 PM
Oh, I think he made up for that ill-advised Todd Richie trade. He since acquired Bartolo Colon, Alomar and Carl Everitt.

If Jim Bowden made those deals, we would be proclaiming him as a god about now.

westofyou
07-06-2003, 04:47 PM
If Jim Bowden made those deals, we would be proclaiming him as a god about now

Maybe some would, certainly others wouldn't.

Which camp would you be in?

Krusty
07-06-2003, 04:50 PM
At least the White Sox are trying to win. It is better than seeing anything from this organization. Cellular Field isn't near as nice as a ballpark as Great American but that isn't stopping Jerry Reinsdorf from trying to win the division.

Of course, Lindner is a businessman and not a baseball fan.

westofyou
07-06-2003, 04:56 PM
At least the White Sox are trying to win. It is better than seeing anything from this organization. Cellular Field isn't near as nice as a ballpark as Great American but that isn't stopping Jerry Reinsdorf from trying to win the division.

Hey the Mets "were trying to win" and so were the Rockies when they signed "Hampton and Neagle"

"Trying to win" is a pretty wide brush to paint the subject with, there are lots of ways to "try and win", fact is recent history suggests that loading up with high priced, talent on the downward slope of their career is a poor way to try and win.

BTW is this the same Reinsdorf who was taken to task in 1997 when he had that firesale?

Yeah... he's a hero....... oh and isn't that AS game in his park this year? Didn't his fans attack two different participants these past 2 seasons?

He better work on fan goodwill, or his pocketbook is going to feel it.

Raisor
07-06-2003, 04:59 PM
Jiminez has been Luis Castillo-lite this season, so far.

Here's how they stack up

Salary:
DJ: 345K
Castillo: 4.85-M

Plate Apperances:
DJ 308
LC 369

Runs Created
DJ 37.9
LC 53.2

RC/27
DJ 4.81
LC 5.84

Batting Average
DJ .255
LC: 320

OBP
LC 379
DJ 332

SLG
LC 411
DJ 410

OPS
LC 790
DJ 742

Runs
LC 55
DJ 35

Doubles
LC 9
DJ 11

Triples
LC 3
DJ 5

Home Runs
DJ 7
LC 5

RBI
DJ 26
LC 24

Extra Base Hits
DJ 23
LC 17

Walks
DJ 32
LC 31

Strike Outs
DJ 46
LC 26

Castillo's been significantly better, BUT he makes 4.5 Mil more a year.

I like the deal

cincinnati chili
07-06-2003, 05:03 PM
The Reds will score an additional run about every three games with Jimenez in the lineup instead of Juan Castro.

4.84 rc/27 Jimenez
2.55 rc/27 Castro

Those who don't see a big difference in their offensive stats aren't looking at the right stats.

So why don't I love this trade to death?

If hearsay means anything, the guy is lazy and a bad teammate.

"He's the laziest teammate I've ever played withóthat's 10 years," Ryan Klesko told the San Diego Union-Tribune. "The kid has no desire. What can you do? He didn't want to work."

So why bring in this guy unless he's going to start? It's one thing to have a clubhouse cancer if he's producing. But I don't see the point of bringing this guy in as a backup.

Anyone from Chicago have any qualitative analysis on why his stats went so far south in June?

Buckeye33
07-06-2003, 05:07 PM
The lineup that should be on the field tomorrow evening:

1. Jiminez 2B
2. Larkin SS
3. Guillen RF
4. Kearns CF (only because he isn't on the DL)
5. Boone 3B
6. Dunn LF
7. Casey 1B
8. Stinnett C

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 05:07 PM
Another good point is by trading for Jimenez to help our MI situation, Jimbo can concentrate on getting some help at our starting pitching stiuation!!! Jimenez can play 3 infield positions, he might make a good leadoff hitter and he doesn't make a lot of $$. I wish he would be a better base stealer.

Larkin contract is over at the end of the season. Will he be back next season at a much smaller contract? Maybe we can trade Castro to a playoff team who needs help to get rid of his contract.

Jimbo now is the time for a good starting pitcher!!

Raisor
07-06-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili
So why don't I love this trade to death?

If hearsay means anything, the guy is lazy and a bad teammate.




Thank goodness the Reds have Casey to give him a hug! That's probably all that's been missing!

:D

Krusty
07-06-2003, 05:10 PM
Another guy with baggage......great.:(

cincinnati chili
07-06-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Krusty
Another guy with baggage......great.:(

When they call FeLo back up, we can have the All-Samsonite middle infield.

Again, I don't mind the baggage if he's starting and helping the team win. I just don't see the point of a lazy, ingrate backup. Start him or trade him (now I sound like Jose Guillen).

RFS62
07-06-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Raisor
Thank goodness the Reds have Casey to give him a hug! That's probably all that's been missing!

:D

Raisor, I know you're just being funny (sort of). But do you really put no creedence at all in what Chili said?

Raisor
07-06-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by RFS62
Raisor, I know you're just being funny (sort of). But do you really put no creedence at all in what Chili said?

I have no clue if Jimenez is a badguy or not. Klesko, when he was in Atlanta was a so called problem too, so who knows?

As long as a guy isn't doing illegal stuff, it doesn't bother me too much either way..

PSR

cincinnati chili
07-06-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Raisor
I have no clue if Jimenez is a badguy or not. Klesko, when he was in Atlanta was a so called problem too, so who knows?

As long as a guy isn't doing illegal stuff, it doesn't bother me too much either way..

PSR

For what it's worth, 62, unless Scott Dunn can be a major league stud reliever (which looks doubtful), I think that Jimenez is worth the risk. The Reds aren't going anywhere unless they improve their run deficit. It's not like they're a first-place team and they're inviting a fly into the ointment. Like the White Sox dealing with the devil (e.g. Carl Everett), the Reds have nothing to lose except money. This trade costs us very little money, so I say why not.

But I'm not going to jump for joy, given the fact that two organizations in the past 12 months have unloaded this guy with bad things to say about him.

oregonred
07-06-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Krusty
At least the White Sox are trying to win. It is better than seeing anything from this organization. Cellular Field isn't near as nice as a ballpark as Great American but that isn't stopping Jerry Reinsdorf from trying to win the division.

Of course, Lindner is a businessman and not a baseball fan.

Wow this is a first, praise for Jerry Reinsdorf as a man who wants to win out of the goodness of his heart!

BTW, nothing wrong with this deal. Won't set the world on firem but this organization needs some depth at MI and giving up Scott Dunn isn't going to matter much. Getting a cheap MI wtih an eye for walks and a little pop isn't a bad thing. Scott Dunn won't help the big club in 2003 (and likely beyond) and Jimenez is about 3X better than Juan Castro -- again showing the folly of the Dictator's multi-year LTC :thumbdn:

Chili -- Love the "All-Samsonite" line :thumbup:

pedro
07-06-2003, 05:42 PM
I have no clue if Jimenez is a badguy or not. Klesko, when he was in Atlanta was a so called problem too, so who knows?

I agree hearsay is hearsay. but I lived in atlanta in the entire time klesko was with Braves and I don't recall anyone ever calling him a bad guy. now, I could be wrong on that, but ......

Raisor
07-06-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by pedro
I agree hearsay is hearsay. but I lived in atlanta in the entire time klesko was with Braves and I don't recall anyone ever calling him a bad guy. now, I could be wrong on that, but ......

I've been here since 88 myself..

I didn't say that Klesko was a "bad guy", but there were some rumblings about him..he complained about playing time, mostly because Cox refused to let him hit against LHP.

Not saying that Klesko wasn't right to complain either, Bobby screwed him for a long time.

PSR

J "Cooper"
07-06-2003, 05:51 PM
Don't want to start anything about race, creed, etc...but latino's seem to get more of a rap for not working hard and that always strikes me as odd. In this case -he came back from a broken neck for god's sake. He may be a real lazy guy-but that seems to be a good sign.

Lastly, did anyone notice in the SI player ratings that most of the guys who were considered lazy were latino--most of the guys considered hard working were white.

These guys come to a foreign country--they raised in poverty (for the most part) and sign for peanuts. Many of them dint even have proper diets, yet they get considered "lazy". That strikes me as a little bit of pre-judgement.

cincinnati chili
07-06-2003, 05:58 PM
Good points all around coop, and that's why I think Jimenez is more than worth a look. But I will also point out that Klesko's played with hundreds of players from Latin America, and Jimenez was the one guy he pegged as the 'laziest in 10 years.'

Joe Morgan had a reputation before he came to Cincinnati; he said it was because people in the Houston clubhouse/front office were prejudiced. History would suggest that Morgan was correct.

Maybe Klesko didn't think he spent enough time in the weight room or something frivolous like that.

All I'm saying is that if D-Lo dogs it, we've been warned.

M2
07-06-2003, 06:24 PM
Jiminez is far from a guaranteed salve for any of the Reds' ills. He's got the ability to be a good hitter, but he hasn't been one. His defense and speed never rebounded after the car crash. As chili notes, his attitude has left many unimpressed.

Yet I still like the trade. He's got abillity and he's played well enough to hold down a big league roster spot. Sometimes players take a long time to figure it all out - Mark McLemore springs to mind.

I like Scott Dunn. He had arguably the best stuff in the system (well, now that Ryan Wagner's around, the second-best stuff). He looks like he might be putting things together in AA as a reliever, but he's been on a yo-yo all year. Everytime his ERA starts to get low, he gets shelled and it's another 10 days before he's back under 4.00 again. He's got talent, a lot of it. IMO another organization would be wise to try him in the rotation again and see if they can sort him out.

But I like the trade. As Arschloch noted, they're almost the same age and Jiminez has been in the majors for three years already. He'll get a shot at 2B soon enough no matter what Jimbo says in public. If D'Angelo hits, the job will be his no questions asked.

Let's see, that gives the Reds Jiminez, Olmedo and Lopez as 25-and-under 2B/SS candidates. What are the odds of Barry Larkin finishing the month as a Red if the club continues to lose touch with .500? IMO, not high.

CougarQuest
07-06-2003, 06:26 PM
I don't think this is a bad trade by any stretch of the imagination. It only costs us Scott Dunn, who I don't see as a player that will help the major league team. At worst, D'Angelo is a bat off the bench that can play 3 different infield positions. At best, he could be our starting 2nd baseman and leadoff hitter. This seems to me, to be a good long term and short term trade.

I think Castro is gone. Be it after the season is over, if not sooner.

This gives the Reds 3 switch hitters for SS & 2nd to look at long term. 22 year old Olmedo, 25 year old Jimenez and 23 year old Lopez.

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 06:54 PM
We haven't discussed this trade could be the start or another trade. The Reds take a few days to get to know and rate Jimemez with their other MIs. Then they can package one of their MIs with other players for a starting pitcher. Florida might want one of our MIs if LC is leaving the Marlins in a deal for SP Penny. Who knows Jimemez might be leaving again soon but I doubt it.

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 07:18 PM
ESPN.com | MLB Index | MLB Players | MLB Scores | Fantasy Baseball Player Search
#5 D'Angelo Jimenez Chicago White Sox | Roster | Statistics



AVG
.255 HR
7 RBI
26


Age: 25
Height: 6-0
Weight: 195 lbs.
Bats: Both
Throws: Right
Pos: 2B



Born: December 21, 1977, Santo Domingo, DR
Full Name: D'Angelo Jimenez
College: None
Experience: 4 years
Debut: 1999
2003 Salary: $345,000

RosterR. AlomarS. Alomar Jr.J. BorchardC. BrumbaughM. BuehrleB. ColonJ. CredeB. DaubachC. EverettJ. GarlandR. GloadG. GloverT. GordonT. GraffaninoW. HarrisB. KochR. KohlmeierP. KonerkoC. LeeE. LoaizaC. MaloneD. MarteM. OlivoM. OrdonezA. RowandD. SandersF. ThomasJ. ValentinR. WhiteD. WrightK. Wunsch
Buy this card on etopps.com!

Profile | Fantasy | Statistics | Splits | Game Log | Batter vs. Pitcher | Auctions | Search: ESPN | Web



BATTING SPLITS: 2003
BATTING: 2001 | 2002 | 2003 | THREE YEAR (2000-2002)
PITCHING: 2002 | THREE YEAR (2000-2002)
Overall AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Total 271 35 69 11
5
7
26
32
0
46
4
3
.255
.332
.410
.742

As RHB 64 0 19 2
0
1
7
6
0
10
0
0
.297
.357
.375
.732

As LHB 207 0 50 9
5
6
19
26
0
36
0
0
.242
.325
.420
.745

By Breakdown AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 64 7 19 2
0
1
7
6
0
10
1
1
.297
.357
.375
.732

vs. Right 207 28 50 9
5
6
19
26
0
36
3
2
.242
.325
.420
.745

Home 125 14 30 5
3
3
12
16
0
25
3
1
.240
.326
.400
.726

Road 146 21 39 6
2
4
14
16
0
21
1
2
.267
.337
.418
.755

Day 99 13 28 3
3
4
18
16
0
14
0
0
.283
.379
.495
.874

Night 172 22 41 8
2
3
8
16
0
32
4
3
.238
.303
.360
.663

Grass 229 29 55 10
5
6
21
29
0
39
4
3
.240
.324
.406
.730

Turf 42 6 14 1
0
1
5
3
0
7
0
0
.333
.378
.429
.807

Dome 34 4 11 1
0
0
3
1
0
6
0
0
.324
.343
.353
.696

Open 237 31 58 10
5
7
23
31
0
40
4
3
.245
.331
.418
.749

By Day/Month AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days 4 0 1 0
0
0
1
2
0
0
0
0
.250
.500
.250
.750

March 4 0 0 0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
.000
.000
.000
.000

April 91 14 27 6
4
3
10
15
0
14
2
2
.297
.396
.549
.945

May 85 11 25 3
0
1
5
11
0
11
0
1
.294
.375
.365
.740

June 91 10 17 2
1
3
11
6
0
21
2
0
.187
.235
.330
.565

Pre All-Star 271 35 69 11
5
7
26
32
0
46
4
3
.255
.332
.410
.742

By Opponent AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. ARI 10 0 1 0
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
0
.100
.100
.100
.200

vs. BAL 22 3 6 2
0
0
0
3
0
6
0
1
.273
.360
.364
.724

vs. BOS 15 3 3 1
0
0
2
2
0
6
1
0
.200
.294
.267
.561

vs. CHC 16 0 1 0
0
0
1
3
0
5
0
0
.063
.211
.063
.274

vs. CLE 38 8 17 2
2
3
9
7
0
2
1
1
.447
.522
.842
1.364

vs. DET 30 6 10 3
2
2
5
4
0
5
0
0
.333
.412
.767
1.179

vs. KAN 20 3 4 0
1
0
0
4
0
2
1
0
.200
.333
.300
.633

vs. LOS 11 2 2 0
0
0
2
0
0
1
1
0
.182
.182
.182
.364

vs. MIN 37 2 8 1
0
0
1
2
0
9
0
0
.216
.256
.243
.499

vs. OAK 11 0 1 1
0
0
1
1
0
1
0
0
.091
.167
.182
.349

vs. SDG 5 0 0 0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
.000
.000
.000
.000

vs. SFO 13 1 2 0
0
1
1
0
0
4
0
0
.154
.154
.385
.539

vs. SEA 18 3 8 1
0
0
0
4
0
0
0
1
.444
.545
.500
1.045

vs. TOR 25 4 6 0
0
1
4
2
0
4
0
0
.240
.296
.360
.656

By Stadium AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Bank One Ballpark 10 0 1 0
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
0
.100
.100
.100
.200

Camden Yards 10 1 2 1
0
0
0
2
0
3
0
1
.200
.333
.300
.633

Wrigley Field 8 0 0 0
0
0
0
1
0
4
0
0
.000
.111
.000
.111

Jacobs Field 22 4 8 1
1
2
5
4
0
1
0
1
.364
.444
.773
1.217

Comerica Park 14 3 6 2
1
1
1
1
0
2
0
0
.429
.467
.929
1.396

Kauffman Stadium 12 3 2 0
0
0
0
2
0
1
0
0
.167
.286
.167
.453

Dodger Stadium 11 2 2 0
0
0
2
0
0
1
1
0
.182
.182
.182
.364

Metrodome 25 2 8 1
0
0
1
1
0
4
0
0
.320
.346
.360
.706

Network Coliseum 7 0 1 1
0
0
1
1
0
1
0
0
.143
.250
.286
.536

SkyDome 17 4 6 0
0
1
4
2
0
3
0
0
.353
.421
.529
.950

By Pitcher AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs P 1st time in G 131 15 31 6
0
3
12
19
0
27
2
1
.237
.331
.351
.682

vs P 2nd time in G 66 11 21 2
2
3
9
7
0
9
1
2
.318
.384
.545
.929

vs P 3rd time in G 57 6 13 1
3
1
5
5
0
9
1
0
.228
.290
.404
.694

vs P 4th+ time in G 17 0 4 2
0
0
0
1
0
1
0
0
.235
.278
.353
.631

vs Groundball 64 10 16 4
1
1
7
9
0
9
1
0
.250
.342
.391
.733

vs Average G:F 151 16 33 5
4
4
12
14
0
27
2
0
.219
.285
.384
.669

vs Flyball 56 9 20 2
0
2
7
9
0
10
1
3
.357
.439
.500
.939

vs Finesse 57 9 18 4
0
1
12
6
0
8
1
1
.316
.381
.439
.820

vs Average F:P 71 7 16 1
4
3
3
7
0
12
2
0
.225
.295
.479
.774

vs Power 143 19 35 6
1
3
11
19
0
26
1
2
.245
.331
.364
.695

By Position AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
As Second Baseman 263 35 68 11
5
7
25
30
0
45
4
3
.259
.333
.418
.751

As Third Baseman 3 0 1 0
0
0
1
2
0
0
0
0
.333
.600
.333
.933

As Pinch Hitter 5 0 0 0
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
0
.000
.000
.000
.000

By Count AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Count 0-0 18 0 3 0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
.167
.167
.167
.334

Count 0-1 25 0 8 1
0
0
2
0
0
0
1
1
.320
.320
.360
.680

After 0-1 140 0 36 5
3
7
18
9
0
35
0
1
.257
.300
.486
.786

Count 0-2 12 0 2 0
1
1
1
0
0
3
0
1
.167
.167
.583
.750

After 0-2 42 0 7 0
2
3
4
3
0
18
0
1
.167
.222
.476
.698

Count 1-1 41 0 16 2
2
1
3
0
0
0
2
0
.390
.381
.610
.991

After 1-1 128 0 36 6
2
4
18
17
0
26
0
1
.281
.363
.453
.816

Count 1-2 45 0 9 1
0
4
7
0
0
25
0
1
.200
.200
.489
.689

After 1-2 83 0 15 3
1
4
9
7
0
38
0
1
.181
.244
.386
.630

Count 1-0 22 0 4 1
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
.182
.182
.227
.409

After 1-0 113 0 30 6
2
0
8
23
0
11
0
1
.265
.390
.354
.744

Count 2-0 13 0 3 1
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
.231
.231
.308
.539

After 2-0 36 0 11 3
1
0
2
12
0
2
0
0
.306
.479
.444
.923

Count 2-1 20 0 8 2
1
0
5
0
0
0
0
0
.400
.400
.600
1.000

After 2-1 51 0 16 2
1
1
11
15
0
4
0
0
.314
.470
.451
.921

Count 2-2 35 0 7 2
0
0
3
0
0
11
1
0
.200
.200
.257
.457

After 2-2 56 0 9 2
1
0
4
16
0
14
0
0
.161
.347
.232
.579

Count 3-2 29 0 4 1
1
0
2
19
0
7
0
0
.138
.479
.241
.720

After 3-2 29 0 4 1
1
0
2
19
0
7
0
0
.138
.479
.241
.720

By Batting Order AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Batting #1 219 30 60 10
5
7
22
24
0
30
3
3
.274
.344
.461
.805

Batting #2 44 5 8 1
0
0
2
7
0
14
1
0
.182
.294
.205
.499

Batting #8 5 0 1 0
0
0
2
1
0
1
0
0
.200
.333
.200
.533

Batting #9 3 0 0 0
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
0
.000
.000
.000
.000

By Situation AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
None On 188 6 47 6
4
6
6
20
0
36
0
0
.250
.322
.420
.742

Runners On 83 29 22 5
1
1
20
12
0
10
4
3
.265
.354
.386
.740

Scoring Position 49 22 11 2
0
0
16
8
0
6
0
0
.224
.328
.265
.593

1B Only 34 7 11 3
1
1
4
4
0
4
4
3
.324
.395
.559
.954

On Second 22 3 5 1
0
0
5
4
0
2
0
0
.227
.346
.273
.619

On Third 4 1 1 0
0
0
2
0
0
2
0
0
.250
.200
.250
.450

First and Second 7 4 1 0
0
0
1
1
0
1
0
0
.143
.250
.143
.393

First and Third 6 6 1 0
0
0
1
1
0
0
0
0
.167
.286
.167
.453

Second and Third 3 2 1 0
0
0
1
1
0
0
0
0
.333
.500
.333
.833

Bases Loaded 7 6 2 1
0
0
6
1
0
1
0
0
.286
.375
.429
.804

None On/Out 101 1 22 4
2
1
1
7
0
21
0
0
.218
.269
.327
.596

None On, 1/2 out 87 5 25 2
2
5
5
13
0
15
0
0
.287
.380
.529
.909

Men On, 2 out 37 8 11 3
0
0
10
5
0
3
0
2
.297
.381
.378
.759

Man on 3rd, <2 out 6 11 2 0
0
0
4
1
0
1
0
0
.333
.375
.333
.708

Lead Off Inning 101 0 22 4
2
1
1
7
0
21
0
0
.218
.269
.327
.596

Scoring Posn, 2 out 29 8 6 1
0
0
9
5
0
3
0
0
.207
.324
.241
.565

Close and Late 39 7 10 3
0
1
7
11
0
4
1
0
.256
.412
.410
.822


Glossary
Groundball - results vs. "groundball pitchers." Groundball pitchers defined as such before the season begins based on the past five year's performance. A groundball/flyball ratio of less than 1.0 classifies one as a groundball pitcher. A ratio of greater than 1.5 classifies one as a flyball pitcher. All others are neutral. Flyball - results vs. flyball pitchers. Average G:F - results vs. a pitcher classifed as neither a groundball or flyball pitcher. Finesse - results vs. "finesse" pitchers. Finesse pitchers defined as such before the season begins based on the past five year's performance. If the pitcher's BB+SO/IP is less than 0.93, he is classified as "finesse." If it's greater than 1.13, he's classified as "power." All others are neutral. Power - results vs. "power" pitchers. Average F:P - results vs. a pitcher classified as neither a finesse or power pitcher. Close And Late - results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck.




©2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Colorado Red
07-06-2003, 07:23 PM
Sorry guys, my last post with the ESPN Stats looks terrible. He hits better as RHB than LHB, hits better on the road, turf and day games.

PuffyPig
07-06-2003, 09:30 PM
I absolutely love this trade. We now have, for the future, 3 guys who can play SS/2nd. At the end of last year, we had none.

Ray-Ray did not factor into the equation at the end of last year.

JaxRed
07-06-2003, 10:09 PM
Actually that might be the worst formatted post ever !!!!!

But your other point: "We haven't discussed this trade could be the start or another trade. The Reds take a few days to get to know and rate Jimemez with their other MIs. Then they can package one of their MIs with other players for a starting pitcher. Florida might want one of our MIs if LC is leaving the Marlins in a deal for SP Penny. Who knows Jimemez might be leaving again soon but I doubt it."

I actually heard this same thing from a media member I know.

wheels
07-06-2003, 10:50 PM
And who might this media member be?

Don't hold out on us JAX!

This trade kinda perked up my day, and the implosion on the field did nothing to diminish my good feeling.

And I hope this is the start of some kind of front office movement, be it bringing in guys that can help now, or soembody that can help in the near future while trimming some of the fat.

I , for one would fine and dandy with retooling and tweaking for next year or the year after. I'm glad they at least threw me a bone today.

gm
07-06-2003, 11:10 PM
I liked the Jiminez idea a lot more before the skeletons started popping out of the proverbial closet

DJ sounds like a remix of Jose Guillen and Felipe Lopez. Highly touted but lacking the "it" that makes 'em stick as ML regulars. Now, maybe DJ and FL will take the "long road" like Guillen and turn their careers back around...who knows? But this practice of acquiring talented players with questionable characters feels eerily familiar...it reminds me of a local roundball team that tried it and found out that the bad boys don't necessarily produce good results

(If DJ has to sit around like WMP, will that improve his work ethic? I'm thinking he'll be sulky)

M2...keep sellin' that "Larkin is gonzo" take. Certainly no one else is whispering that Barry has wanderlust or that anyone else is interested in acquiring him...if a deal comes to pass you'll have beaucoup kudos to go along with your achey-breaky heart

malcontent
07-07-2003, 12:16 AM
I've never seen him play but I just looked at some pictures of him and Klesko wasn't lying.

There's absolutely no desire in those dull eyes. Go ahead and look for yourself.

I think JimBo just got "tooken", as my son likes to say.

Golgafrinchan
07-07-2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by malcontent
I've never seen him play but I just looked at some pictures of him and Klesko wasn't lying.

There's absolutely no desire in those dull eyes. Go ahead and look for yourself.

I think JimBo just got "tooken", as my son likes to say.
Let me guess: you're a scout for the Reds.

westofyou
07-07-2003, 12:22 AM
There's absolutely no desire in those dull eyes. Go ahead and look for yourself.

http://images.sportsline.com/images/baseball/mlb/players/60x80/21591.jpg

Wow a real zombie!!

malcontent
07-07-2003, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Arschloch
Let me guess: you're a scout for the Reds.
No, but I'd be more than willing to provide them with physiognomic readings for a (small) fee.

You wouldn't believe what Casey's features reveal to the discerning eye.

And where was that picture of woy?

REDREAD
07-07-2003, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Krusty
I doubt Jimenez will have that much of an impact which will turn this club around.

True, Krusty, D'Jimmeniz is not an impact player, but they basically got him for free. (Scott Dunn will struggle to even make the majors, IMO).

I agree with Raisor that D'Jimmenez immediately becomes our best option to start at 2b.

If we ever get a real 2b in the future, D'Jimmenez can settle in the utility role and maybe, just maybe Bowden will
resist the urge to give Castro another long term contract.

Worst case, D'Jimminez strengthens the bench at virtually no cost. Even if he bombs, it's not like he cost us anything
significant (IMO).

PERJLM
07-07-2003, 09:22 AM
Why does this thread have 4 pages? Jimenez will be a bench player. It was a stupid a-- trade that Bowden did to say ''Hey I made a move!''

princeton
07-07-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by REDREAD
If we ever get a real 2b in the future...

we have two real ones now: Jiminez and Lopez. It's a nice situation

now for a closer and an ace...

Boss-Hog
07-07-2003, 09:34 AM
I'm so tired of you being critical of nearly everything - if you don't like it here, and have nothing to add but criticisms, I'd be more than happy to send you links to other Reds forums that you might enjoy better.

Boss


Originally posted by PERJLM
Why does this thread have 4 pages? Jimenez will be a bench player. It was a stupid a-- trade that Bowden did to say ''Hey I made a move!''

pete rose 4ever
07-07-2003, 09:37 AM
I agree PEARL. I AM STILL PISSED , I thought pitching was 1-2-3 in NEEDS ....a never has been INF doesnt help this team one bit!!!:mad:

Raisor
07-07-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by pete rose 4ever
I agree PEARL. I AM STILL PISSED , I thought pitching was 1-2-3 in NEEDS ....a never has been INF doesnt help this team one bit!!!:mad:

it'll help, at least in the fact that he'll take AB's away from Black Hole Juan Castro.

Roy Tucker
07-07-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili
When they call FeLo back up, we can have the All-Samsonite middle infield.

I nominate this for Line of the Year for RedsZone 2003! :D :D :D

pete rose 4ever
07-07-2003, 09:50 AM
Yeah FeLo and his 1 ERROR per game he plays stat is AWESOME. Havent seen this type of shorrtstop play FOREVER!!

westofyou
07-07-2003, 10:21 AM
Why does this thread have 4 pages?

Always asking the big questions eh?

Red Leader
07-07-2003, 10:34 AM
I sent an e-mail to Hal McCoy after the Roberto Alomar trade when I first read that the Sox were going to designate Jimenez for assignment and told him if he talked to Tim Naehring, Jim Bowden or whoever that they should offer a minor league arm to the Sox, who had just lost a bunch of minor league arms in the trade to the Mets, for JImenez.

It happened.

The reasons I wanted the Reds to acquire Jimenez were fairy simple.

1) he's cheap
2) he's talented
3) he plays multiple positions (2B, SS, 3B)
4) he's young, and still improving
5) he can hit lead off
6) on days when Larkin sits, you put Olmedo at SS and Jimenez at 2B and lead off, and put Castro back on the bench. This makes the team stronger, IMO.
7) When Larkin starts, you can give Boone a day off and play Jimenez at 3B, you can give Olmedo a day of and play him at SS. All of which are better options than starting Castro.
8) It gives you flexibility in other deals. If someone wants Felipe or Olmedo, you can now move them without leaving a gaping hole.


For those that say that pitching is our #1 priority and don't understand why we aquired a middle infielder, I say this: There are plenty of teams looking for pitching right now. Pitching is hard to acquire (decent pitchers, that is) because teams are reluctant to trade them. I agree that pitching should be our #1 priority but does that mean that you shouldn't make ANY deals until you get pitching....NO!!! Jimenez was available and fit the Reds needs, a lead off hitter, who can play 2B/SS/3B and is cheap and talented. He wouldn't have cleared waivers, so you have to go get him before someone else does. The Reds did and I am really happy about it. Jim Bowden knows they need pitching, I'm sure he works on getting it everyday. But that doesn't mean that should be the ONLY thing he does. His job is to improve this team, and with this move, I feel that he did, without giving up much in return, IMO. That's a good trade.

ballgame16
07-07-2003, 11:09 AM
Does anybody here actually think that a career minor league reliever will help us more than a quick middle infielder with 4 years experience. This was a great move and will help us now and in the future. All I have heard over the last few years on this site is how we want a leadoff hitting middle infielder. Now we have one and he is cheap, plus we gave up nothing for him. Get a grip and enjoy baseball instead of being a bunch cry babies about every move the Reds make.:rant: :rant: :rant:

PERJLM
07-07-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Boss-Hog
I'm so tired of you being critical of nearly everything - if you don't like it here, and have nothing to add but criticisms, I'd be more than happy to send you links to other Reds forums that you might enjoy better.

Boss

Boss,
I am sorry, it's a vaild question. How is this trade going to help the Reds win the division? It won't, man!

How are my comments different from the threads, Jim Bowden-Time to go, Carl Linder is satan, or What did you all except,etc?

This team is going no where as long as the management team is in place, don't you agree?

It's time for people to accept the fact.

MWM
07-07-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by PERJLM
I am sorry, it's a vaild question. How is this trade going to help the Reds win the division?

How are my comments different from the threads, Jim Bowden-Time to go, Carl Linder is satan, or What did you all except,etc?


Am I the only one that sees the irony in this comment?

Red Leader
07-07-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by PERJLM
Boss,
How is this trade going to help the Reds win the division? It won't, man!


I am going to address this. This move might not help the Reds win the division this year, but it may help in building a good team for the future. One of the biggest needs for this team was a lead off hitter and a future second baseman. We just acquired that player. That helps doesn't it?

It's not like the trade deadline has expired. I suggest you wait until that time to make a final judgement on trades the Reds have made. The point is, there's no need to be a total pessimist. There are future moves that could be made to help the team. Like I said earlier, pitching is tough to acquire, especially when you have so many teams that are either unexpectedly still in the race or "on the bubble". More moves will be made, trust me. I'm sure some will bash those moves as well, but we must look at the trades and see how they effect this team not only this year, but in the future as well. In my opinion, this trade greatly improves this team for the future, while moderately helps this season.

westofyou
07-07-2003, 11:47 AM
The point is, there's no need to be a total pessimist. There are future moves that could be made to help the team.

Right.

Baseball and teams aren't just THIS SEASON, it's an organic thing, it ebbs and flows like the ocean, winning seasons are the waves, trades and moves are just a way to try and get to the good break... winning it all is riding one right to the beach.

Some people just want to sit there and get a tan.... or burned.

RANDY IN INDY
07-07-2003, 11:51 AM
I really hope that any moves that the Reds may make at the deadline are moves that will make this team a better team for the long haul and not just this season. I may be wrong, but this team doesn't really look like it is ready to win this year, and a couple of knee jerk moves could really make it hard to win for a long time.

pedro
07-07-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
I really hope that any moves that the Reds may make at the deadline are moves that will make this team a better team for the long haul and not just this season. I may be wrong, but this team doesn't really look like it is ready to win this year, and a couple of knee jerk moves could really make it hard to win for a long time.

exactly. i would much rather watch the reds improve at a healthy pace that is sustainable. trading guys who aren't even arbitration eligible is probably not the best way to do that.

Red Leader
07-07-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
I really hope that any moves that the Reds may make at the deadline are moves that will make this team a better team for the long haul and not just this season. I may be wrong, but this team doesn't really look like it is ready to win this year, and a couple of knee jerk moves could really make it hard to win for a long time.

Amen. If it means parting with Aaron Boone to get Jason Johnson or someone similar (Ponson, Benson) or parting with him to get Juan Cruz, or someone similar (pitching prospect), I want the prospect. Why? They won't help us win the division this year, well, maybe they could, but not a guarantee, but they will surely help us in the future a lot more than a Benson, Ponson, or Johnson would and they give us more payroll flexibility.

guernsey
07-07-2003, 01:00 PM
From TSN's Inside Dish:



What is with D'Angelo Jimenez? The White Sox raved about his attitude and work ethic during spring training, but soured on him in the first half, designated him for assignment last week and then traded him to the Reds on Sunday. One major-league executive says Jimenez possesses "Alomar-type ability," but is stubborn and doesn't listen to advice. ...

gonelong
07-07-2003, 01:45 PM
Just to get my $.02 in for posterity ...

I like the deal, we trade a guy that more than likey won't pan out for a guy that already has usefullness as a multi-position backup at the MLB level, and a probable upside to boot.

Given the Reds track record with pitching the deal looks even better. Maybe SDunn will become something, but I wasn't holding my breath for him to do it in a Cincy uniform.

GL

ballgame16
07-07-2003, 03:10 PM
Castillo's numbers over his first four years.

Year TM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS AVG
1996 Fla 41 164 26 43 2 1 1 8 14 46 17 4 .320 .305 0.625 .262
1997 Fla 75 263 27 63 8 0 0 8 27 53 16 10 .310 .270 0.58 .240
1998 Fla 44 153 21 31 3 2 1 10 22 33 3 0 .307 .268 0.575 .203
1999 Fla 128 487 76 147 23 4 0 28 67 85 50 17 .384 .366 .303

YEAR TM POS G GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT ZR
1996 Fla 2B 41 41 352.0 220 99 118 3 37 .986 .875
1997 Fla 2B 70 64 575.1 315 129 177 9 44 .971 .851
1998 Fla 2B 44 43 378.1 237 117 113 7 34 .970 .857
1999 Fla 2B 126 122 1068.1 615 257 343 15 75 .976 .832

DJ's stats over his first four years.

Year TM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS AVG
1999 NYY 7 20 3 8 2 0 0 4 3 4 0 0 .478 .500 0.978 .400
2001 SD 86 308 45 85 19 0 3 33 39 68 2 3 .355 .367 0.722 .276
2002 SD 87 321 39 77 11 4 3 33 34 63 4 2 .311 .327 0.638 .240
2002 CWS 27 108 22 31 4 3 1 11 16 10 2 1 .384 .407 0.791 .287
2002 Total 114 429 61 108 15 7 4 44 50 73 6 3 .330 .347 0.677 .252
2003 CWS 73 271 35 69 11 5 7 26 32 46 4 3 .332 .410 0.742 .255


YEAR TM POS G GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT ZR
1999 NYY 2B 1 0 7.0 2 1 1 0 0 1.000 1.000
2002 SD 2B 54 52 444.2 282 116 159 7 44 .975 .820
2002 CWS 2B 17 17 150.0 85 31 53 1 16 .988 .896
2003 CWS 2B 68 67 586.2 301 119 175 7 41 .977 .813

Pretty comparible, and about $4 million difference in salaries, it sounds like we have the lead-off hitter of the future. :thumbup: :thumbup:

guernsey
07-07-2003, 04:53 PM
From Baseball America:



Latest Jimenez trade lands him with Reds
By Jim Callis
July 6, 2003

It took D'Angelo Jimenez slightly more than two years to wear out his welcome with the Padres, but less than a year to do with the White Sox. Chicago designated him for assignment after trading for Roberto Alomar on July 1, then sent him to the Reds for Double-A righthander Scott Dunn on Sunday.

Jimenez looked like a steal when the Padres acquired him from the Yankees for Jay Witasick in June 2001. He had been one of the game's top shortstop prospects before breaking his neck in January 2000 when his car hit a bus in his native Dominican Republic. After his return, he was blocked by New York's middle infield of Derek Jeter and Alfonso Soriano. The trade to San Diego gave him a chance to blossom, but he didn't make the most of it as he didn't hit much and showed inferior range at shortstop that prompted his move to second base. The Padres traded him to the White Sox last July for nondescript minor leaguers Alex Fernandez and Humberto Quintero.

Jimenez finished strong with Chicago in 2002, batting .287-1-11 in 27 games, but slumped this year and hit .255-7-26 in 73 contests. He batted just .187 in June, prompting the trade for Alomar. He made several baserunning and mental mistakes, which didn't help endear him to the White Sox. The Padres aren't big fans of Jimenez, either. After Jimenez said San Diego's veterans didn't treat him respectfully and that the club lacked leadership, Ryan Klesko fired back by calling Jimenez the laziest player he'd ever seen. A career .263-14-107 hitter with a .341 on-base percentage and .373 slugging percentage in 280 big league games, Jimenez is a switch-hitter with solid plate discipline and good pop for a middle infielder. His physical skills don't play as well as they should on the bases or in the field, however. At 25, Jimenez still has plenty of time to become a dependable big league regular. He'll begin his Reds career as a utility infielder, though he has more offensive upside than Cincinnati's starting second baseman, Ray Olmedo. Jimenez, who makes $345,000 this season, will be eligible for arbitration for the first time after the season.

Dunn, 25, was a 10th-round pick out of the University of Texas in 1999 and threw a perfect game in the low Class A Midwest League in 2000. Though he has good stuff and has averaged more than a strikeout per inning as a pro, he somehow slid down the Reds' depth chart and was moved to the bullpen in 2002. This year, he has gone 3-2, 3.79 with a 54-16 strikeout-walk ratio and a .211 opponent average in 40 innings at Chattanooga. Dunn throws in the low 90s, and also uses a curveball, changeup and occasional knuckler. He'll help replenish the bullpen prospect depth the White Sox gave up for Alomar (lefty Royce Ring, righty Hector Almonte).

guernsey
07-07-2003, 04:55 PM
Maybe Jose Guillen can get ahold of this guy and explain to him just how quickly a player can go from hot prospect to out of work.

Red Leader
07-07-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by guernsey
Maybe Jose Guillen can get ahold of this guy and explain to him just how quickly a player can go from hot prospect to out of work.

I don't know how much you were kidding, guernsey, but I would guess that Guillen, Larkin, etc would be a great influence on this kid. I'm not sure he's had a role model in San Diego or Chicago to learn from. Sounds like he wasn't too good at making friends in San Diego.

Falls City Beer
07-07-2003, 04:59 PM
Wow. Another oft-traded bum (Chen, et al). I bet he plays with even greater inspiration in the upbeat surroundings in Cincinnati.

guernsey
07-07-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Red Leader
I don't know how much you were kidding, guernsey, but I would guess that Guillen, Larkin, etc would be a great influence on this kid.

I was dead serious. When the Reds sent Guillen to L'ville this spring he almost took his ball and went home, until Jose Cardenal, etc. explained to him that if he did, he would stay there. His phone wasn't going to ring. Now he's on the verge of a pretty good contract from some team.

Jimenez needs to hear that he can quickly be back riding minor league buses for the rest of his career if he doesn't start producing.

Red Leader
07-07-2003, 06:45 PM
Here is the e-mail I sent Hal McCoy about D'Angelo Jimenez this morning:

Hal,

Thanks. It looks like someone listened to us. I'm glad to see the Reds acquire Jimenez. In my opinion, Jimenez is the best second base option for the Reds in the second half. He also has position flexibility to allow them to give Boone a day off at 3B and will allow them to rest Larkin in the second half and play Olmedo at SS without losing anything offensively. The best thing about this, in my opinion, is that it puts Castro back on the bench where he is most valuable. Castro should not an everyday player. Thanks again, I don't know how much influence this had on the actual decision to acquire Jimenez, but I'm glad we got him none the less, and like I said, we were able to acquire him cheap and for a "spare part" that wasn't necessarily damaging to the future. Great move by Jim Bowden. Now, hopefully, Jimenez will play up to my expectations when given the opportunity



Just got this e-mail back from Hal McCoy and thought it was pretty funny:

See, I whisper, "Jimenez," in Bowden's ear and sha-zam, here he is. He better not let us down or Bowden won't listen to us again.

Hal

Chip R
07-08-2003, 12:39 AM
I heard about this trade a couple of days ago while I was still on vacation and I wanted to read the whole thread before posting my opinion. It basically hasn't changed from my initial impression. I'm not crazy about it. Not necessarily because Jimenez has been cut loose by 3 different organizations but because we gave up a pitcher for a 2nd baseman. I don't know how good of a pitcher Dunn will be. I saw him pitch an inning of relief in April and he looked good to me. If the Reds are going to give up an arm like Dunn's, I'd like to get a decent arm in return.

One other thing about Jimenez. If this rep as a lazy, stubborn, know it all is true, he better change his spots here cause as FeLo well knows, this is definitely not the place to be a loafer in. Not in Pete Rose's hometown.

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2003, 11:29 AM
I was only able to catch one of Jimenez's at bats last night, but looking at his stance and watching his approach, he reminded me of the guy that took his place in Chicago. I hope we can get some of the same results out of him, minus the saliva.;)

Redsland
07-09-2003, 11:47 AM
Let's not pin all of our hopes on the guy. We don't want to expectorate too much.
;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2003, 11:55 AM
My "expectorations" are very small and dry at this point!;)

Far East
07-09-2003, 12:09 PM
I'm trying real hard to resist saying that he's the spitting image of anybody. :thumbdn:

westofyou
07-09-2003, 12:43 PM
From BP


http://premium.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2074

OK, enough with the Wag the Dog thing. As Joe Sheehan pointed out, the trades do address the team's single biggest deficiency--its lack of potency against right-handed pitching--and the AL Central is a division in which a couple of extra wins could make a lot of difference.

But there's a lost man in all of this, and it's D'Angelo Jimenez, who was designated for assignment on Wednesday and traded to the Reds on Sunday for a minor league closer and a stick of bubblegum. Without getting into the whole debate about whether there were better ways to clear roster space--of course there were--Jimenez's story is revealing for a couple of reasons. In the first place, it indicates just how much the organization's time horizon has narrowed. Whatever the Sox can squeeze out of Alomar from here on out, Jimenez could have been a cheap, adequate solution in the middle infield for years to come. That they were willing to jettison him so quickly and for so little suggests that he carried baggage of the sort that only star performers can get away with, that Williams knows he needs success n-o-w in order to save his job, or a little bit of both.

Jimenez's demise is also an indictment of new hitting coach Greg Walker. Jimenez's plate discipline, rehabilitated under Gary Ward, had completely fallen apart under Walker:

Under Ward (includes 2002): 38 BB, 28 K
Under Walker: 10 BB, 28 K

Although the cause and effect can be tough to pinpoint here--pitchers have less incentive to throw carefully to a hitter like Jimenez when he isn't hitting the ball hard--the change is dramatic enough to suggest that coaching is at least partly responsible. Oftentimes, the natural instinct of a struggling player is to swing at the first good pitch he sees, but it's precisely in the event of a slump that a player needs to be reminded to keep his approach at the plate intact. In Jimenez's case, he responded to his struggles by transforming into a hacker, making his problems worse and turning him into a liability at the top of the lineup. The problem had grown bad enough that it required a solution, and Jimenez didn't have any options left, but one wonders whether it had to be this way. Jimenez is a player who requires a patient organization, and for better or for worse, that doesn't describe the White Sox right now.

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2003, 01:26 PM
Interesting. Good article.

Red Leader
07-09-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
Interesting. Good article.

I agree. I really like Jimenez, and think he was a very good pickup for the Reds. The only thing that scared me in that article is that they said he should be dealt to a team with patience. I don't see the Reds as that team, not with Larkin, Olmedo, Lopez, and Castro on the roster, not the way they have talked about him so far, like he's the last player on the roster. I truly hope that they give him a fair shot to show what he's got. I would bet anyone that he puts up better numbers than Lopez over the next 3 or so years.

REDREAD
07-09-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by guernsey
What is with D'Angelo Jimenez? The White Sox raved about his attitude and work ethic during spring training, but soured on him in the first half, designated him for assignment last week and then traded him to the Reds on Sunday. One major-league executive says Jimenez possesses "Alomar-type ability," but is stubborn and doesn't listen to advice. ...

I assume the executive they are talking about is Bowden.
My question is this: Is it Bowden or Jimenez that is stubborn and doesn't listen to advice? :) the sentence isn't clear :)

gm
07-09-2003, 02:45 PM
"the natural instinct of a struggling player is to swing at the first good pitch he sees, but it's precisely in the event of a slump that a player needs to be reminded to keep his approach at the plate intact. In Jimenez's case, he responded to his struggles by transforming into a hacker, making his problems worse and turning him into a liability at the top of the lineup"

Based on the few ABs I saw last night, DJ has got his patient approach back. Not sure how much Robson has worked with him so far, or if the "D'Angelo the hacker" will resurface in Cincy

sweaver
07-09-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Krusty
If he is so damn good, why did the White Sox acquire Alomar? For the same reason they got Todd Ritchie for Kip Wells and Josh Fogg.

Spitball
07-09-2003, 06:23 PM
If the White Sox are so concerned about attitude, why on Earth did they acquire Carl Everette? :rolleyes:

pedro
07-09-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by REDREAD
I assume the executive they are talking about is Bowden.
My question is this: Is it Bowden or Jimenez that is stubborn and doesn't listen to advice? :) the sentence isn't clear :)

ain't that the truth.

Raisor
04-16-2004, 02:33 PM
Being stuck at work, no game yet, and no access to any other websites (NASTY firewall) gives Phil plenty of time to seach the archives. Looking back at this thread brings to mind, how do ya'll (especially those of you that hated the deal, and you know who you are) feel about the trade now?