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Az. Reds Fan
08-31-2003, 04:48 PM
to Phils for the ol' PTBNL...


Philadelphia Phillies - Acquired catcher Kelly Stinnett from the
Cincinnati Reds for a player to be named.

RosieRed
08-31-2003, 05:01 PM
No kidding?? Hmmm.

Here's AP's story.

Phillies get C Stinnett from Reds
CINCINNATI – The Philadelphia Phillies got catcher Kelly Stinnett from the Cincinnati Reds on Sunday for a player to be named.
The deal gives the Phillies a backup catcher and saves the cost-conscious Reds some money. Stinnett hit .229 with three homers and 19 RBIs in 60 games this season.
Stinnett will be eligible to play in the postseason because the trade was made before Sept. 1. The Phillies are trying to make the playoffs as the NL wild card.
“I had a feeling, but I didn’t think it was going to be today,” Stinnett said, following the Reds’ 5-0 loss to St. Louis. “I figured it would be late in September, when somebody needed an extra guy maybe because of injury. Going today makes it extra exciting because of the possibility of the postseason.”
The Reds have made six trades and lost another player to a waiver claim since July 29, when they began slashing payroll and stocking up on prospects as part of a sudden rebuilding movement.
Stinnett makes $1.3 million this season and has a mutual option for next year at $750,000. He will get a $250,000 buyout if the option isn’t exercised.
Stinnett has also played for the New York Mets, Milwaukee and Arizona during his 10 seasons in the majors. He is a career .235 hitter with 54 homers and 197 RBIs.
To make room on the 25-man roster for Stinnett, the Phillies optioned right-hander Brandon Duckworth to Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. Duckworth will return to Philadelphia when major league rosters expand Monday.

Carter
08-31-2003, 05:09 PM
Why bother sending Duckworth to AAA, just send him over here.

RosieRed
08-31-2003, 05:31 PM
and from mlb.com:


The Reds are expected to call up Double-A Chattanooga catcher Dane Sardinha to take Stinnett's roster spot instead of Miller. Miller is the starting catcher for Triple-A Louisville, which made the playoffs.

RedRoser
08-31-2003, 05:31 PM
Duckworth would work as the PTBNN---Player to be named NOW!
Hey, a guy can fantasize, right? :eek:
Bye Kelly.
Best of luck in Philly.

---'Roser

CougarQuest
08-31-2003, 05:54 PM
Since I don't live in the area I don't know if I can gauge this correctly, but I get the feeling that Bowa doesn't really like Duckworth. I know he had an injury earlier in the season (tendonitis?). Duckworth is almost 28, isn't he?

KronoRed
08-31-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by RosieRed
The Reds are expected to call up Double-A Chattanooga catcher Dane Sardinha to take Stinnett's roster spot instead of Miller. Miller is the starting catcher for Triple-A Louisville, which made the playoffs

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.!!!
Anyone else, Dane with the bat makes Taylor look like Babe Ruth.

Steve4192
08-31-2003, 09:50 PM
I'm actually kinda looking forward to seeing him, just to find out if his glovework really is all that great.

Bill
08-31-2003, 10:04 PM
Another 250k saved. That only leaves 11.75 million to go.

Here goes my usual. Let's see them recommit the money just saved toward signing a pick to increase organizational talent.

Reds1
08-31-2003, 10:07 PM
This is another one of those trades that doesn't hurt us as Corky would be here next year anyway. If we can't anyone that's better then nobody. Duckworth would be a great pick up. I bet this one is a position player. Anyways, it gives us more cash flexibility and another prospect.

LINEDRIVER
08-31-2003, 10:30 PM
Phils might wait to see if they want the overly hyper Larry Bowa back next yr before letting Duckworth go.

PuffyPig
08-31-2003, 11:31 PM
We actually save about $200,000 this year (in salary) and $250,000 next year, plus the $20,000 waiver fee. That's a nice haul. I'd be surprised if we got anything of value, as having the Phillies cover that $$ is good enough.

Redny
08-31-2003, 11:33 PM
Does this mean Sardinha will be available for the post-season roster?;)

J "Cooper"
09-01-2003, 01:55 AM
Dane does not deserve a callup. Imo, he just has not done enuff to warrant it.

SYCMiniBus
09-01-2003, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by J "Cooper"
Dane does not deserve a callup. Imo, he just has not done enuff to warrant it.

No he doesn't but do you have a better option??

J "Cooper"
09-01-2003, 02:34 AM
Corky Miller
Bryan Prince
Brian Peterson
Jesse Guteriez
Ryan Hanigan

Heck -even Mike Stefanski.

oregonred
09-01-2003, 03:06 AM
Well this is the last straw!

Getting rid of Stinnett just proves this organization has no plan, no clue, no hope and no conscience

:lol: (added for sarcam to avoid an unnecessary exchange)

GAC
09-01-2003, 05:10 AM
Wait a minute! Back up the ol' horse cart! I can remember earlier in the season when there were quite a few on here (including myself) who would wish that the Reds could unload Stinnett's 1+ Mill contract!

He was a backup catcher for crying out loud! And IMO, his services can be easily replaced by someone for alot less money.

This move does not bother me one bit in the least.

And I hope no one expected us to get anything of value for him? Again...I'm just glad to be free from that contract.

SteelSD
09-01-2003, 06:40 AM
Um...GAC...I don't think I've read anything from anyone on this thread who's unhappy about Stinnett leaving...

Deep breaths...deep breaths...;)

knuckler
09-01-2003, 07:30 AM
Anyone think that maybe Sardinha isn't being called up to keep, but to get rid of? The only way to get someone else to pay his major-league contract is to have them accept him in trade or off waivers. Since he was already off the 40-man roster, he has to be put back on to go through waivers again. Hey, it's worth a shot.

And don't worry, I have no doubt Corky Miller is higher on the depth chart than Dane Sardinha. But it sure makes sense to get a look at him in September and pass him through waivers again. Yaneverknow, maybe some team will bite and take him off the Reds' hands (and payroll).

GAC
09-01-2003, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by SteelSD
Um...GAC...I don't think I've read anything from anyone on this thread who's unhappy about Stinnett leaving...

Deep breaths...deep breaths...;)

Alright... I'll tone it down. It was very early in the morning and I have already had a couple cups of coffee! :p

I was simply implying that since this season is history, I would rather have LaRue and Miller up here (and maybe just take a look-see at Dane... nothing more), then Stinnett and his contract.

Especially since they can now expand the roster.

Krusty
09-01-2003, 08:21 AM
If the Reds can get Duckworth or a pitching prospect for Stinnett, they should be grateful.

RANDY IN INDY
09-01-2003, 08:40 AM
Why would the Phillies give the Reds Duckworth for Stinnett? I really don't know why he is being mentioned, unless I'm missing something. Even if Bowa doesn't like him, they sure could get more for him than Stinnett.

guernsey
09-01-2003, 08:57 AM
From the Philly Enquirer:



Phils acquire backup catcher Stinnett from Reds
By Marc Narducci
Inquirer Staff Writer

NEW YORK - The Phillies yesterday made a final move before submitting their 25-man postseason roster by acquiring catcher Kelly Stinnett and cash from the Cincinnati Reds for a player to be named.

Oxilon
09-01-2003, 09:33 AM
I don't want Brandon Duckworth. Well, for one thing, the kid, or should I say adult, is almost 30 (either 28 or 29) and has very little experience to go with his age since he was recalled/demoted from AAA so much.

Granted, Philly does have a nice rotation, but I want to get a prospect back that won't be going on the DL in a few years due to an old back.

Raisor
09-01-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Oxilon
I don't want Brandon Duckworth. Well, for one thing, the kid, or should I say adult, is almost 30 (either 28 or 29) .


Just so everyone is on the same page, since there seems to be some question of his age, Duckworth turns 28 in January.

CougarQuest
09-01-2003, 10:44 AM
For one month of Kelly Stinnett, I'd be estatic to get Duckworth. I'd also be very surprised. I figured we were getting some A ball player.

red-in-la
09-01-2003, 11:29 AM
What I wonder is, how long before the rest of the league cries "foul!"

You trade one of the few ML experienced players on your team for no apparent gain, and you don't call up your AAA catcher because his team is in the AAA playoffs?

Where is the integrity of the game here?

Maybe the season is voer for the Reds, but they play many times against team fighting for a playoff spot......what do they owe the rest of the league in terms of putting up something more than a AA team?

If I spent anytime talking to other baseball fans (other than you guys) I would be EMBARRASSED at this point.

westofyou
09-01-2003, 11:38 AM
You trade one of the few ML experienced players on your team for no apparent gain,

They traded him with CASH for a PTBN, pretty good for a guy who OPS'd .332 in August, .694 in July and .480 in June.

I'd like to see a study that actually could argue that Stinnett is worth keeping over ANYONE on this team at this point in time.

Trading Kelly is like a family where the breadwinner is unemployed having the Cable turned off. It's not a necessity, it's not enriching or helping the family in any other way aside from being a costly form of entertainment when there is entertainment abounding.

The AAA playoffs will be over before you can say boo and then Corky will be called up.

Crying about Stinnetts loss is like crying about losing an empty billfold, yeah it was functional.... but what purpose did it it really hold?

RANDY IN INDY
09-01-2003, 11:43 AM
Agreed.

CougarQuest
09-01-2003, 12:34 PM
The Philly Enqiurer must have a scoop. I can't find any other publication that says the Reds gave up cash along with Stinnett. I'm surprised that they didn't have who the PTBNL is. That actually makes me think we might get a good prospect if we're giving up cash also.

Hey, I can be optimistic about the PTBNL if I want to ;)

redsfan30
09-01-2003, 12:36 PM
Where did Duckworth's name come up? Is this an actual posibility or just a name someone on here threw out? I would be extatic to land Duckworth for Stinnett, but I just don't see that happening.

KronoRed
09-01-2003, 12:39 PM
I think Duckworth is wishful thinking.
It will probably be some low A-ball guy who will never see the majors.

MattyHo4Life
09-01-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by redsfan30
Where did Duckworth's name come up? Is this an actual posibility or just a name someone on here threw out? I would be extatic to land Duckworth for Stinnett, but I just don't see that happening.

It was mentioned in the original article that the Phillies are sending Duckworth down to Triple A to make room for Stinnett, and somebody jokingly (I think) mentioned that the Phillies could trade Duckworth for Stinnett. Somebody else then mentioned that they wouldn't trade Stinnett for Duckworth. :lol:

I can't imagine that anybody seriously thinks that Stinnett could net Duckworth.

VR
09-01-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by MattyMo4Life
It was mentioned in the original article that the Phillies are sending Duckworth down to Triple A to make room for Stinnett, and somebody jokingly (I think) mentioned that the Phillies could trade Duckworth for Stinnett. Somebody else thn mentioned that they wouldn't trade Stinnett for Duckworth. :lol:

I can't imagine that anybody seriously thinks that Stinnett could net Duckworth.

Kevin is pushing 320 these days, but he may be attainable.

PuffyPig
09-01-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by red-in-la
What I wonder is, how long before the rest of the league cries "foul!"

You trade one of the few ML experienced players on your team for no apparent gain, and you don't call up your AAA catcher because his team is in the AAA playoffs?

Where is the integrity of the game here?



If we can get anything for Stinnet (even if the Phillies only assume $1.00 of salary) is a good deal.

Stinnet was not going to back with the Reds next year. We need to look at his alternatives.

A great, great trade, and that without knowing who they got.

LINEDRIVER
09-01-2003, 03:14 PM
The Reds are probably trying to maintain some type of decent relationship with the AAA club and it's fans. My understanding is that Corky will come back up when Louisville is done with the playoffs. If the Reds were actually in contention, Corky would probably be here.

LINEDRIVER
09-01-2003, 03:37 PM
Now that Scott Williamson and his 57 1/2 ft forkballs are out of town, Stinnett is no longer needed. Kelly is a helluva pitch blocker and better at that particular skill than LaRue.

But the thinking nowadays is....

There is always somebody who can do a job cheaper. Forget about the skills, forget about the experience, just get cheaper!!!

***********************************************

The Reds FO continues to reaffirm my belief that at least 12 players on the 2004 Opening Day roster will be making $500,000 or less. That kind of talent will translate into at least 90 losses next year.

If they cant make it on 2.4 mill attendance this year, what will they do with less than 2.0 million in attendance next yr??

GradyHatton
09-01-2003, 04:13 PM
I'm wondering why I keep hearing (John Fay and Chris Welsh today, Kevin Kelly yesterday) and reading that Corky Miller is likely to be Stinnett's replacement as backup catcher in 2004. With all due respect to Jason LaRue, Johnny Bench he ain't. I should think that Miller and possibly others would go to ST competing for the starting job. LaRue has a great arm and has improved some previous defensive liabilities but coming in today at .229 I'm not ready to hand the keys to the catcher's box over to him just yet. Maybe woy or Raisor can supply some "catcher's ERA" or "OBPSP (?)" or other conclusive stats to bring me around. :confused: ;)

Bill
09-01-2003, 04:41 PM
Larue is eligible for arbitration right? With the current extreme cost-cutting taking place, I am not sure that Larue is even safe. particularly if Sardinha shows he can put the bat on the ball occasionally at the major league level.

PuffyPig
09-01-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Bill
Larue is eligible for arbitration right? With the current extreme cost-cutting taking place, I am not sure that Larue is even safe. particularly if Sardinha shows he can put the bat on the ball occasionally at the major league level.

I don't really think that the moves being made are for cost-cutting. Trading FA's to be is smart baseball, saving money is always a good idea when you are out of contention. Larue won't be traded to save money.

buckeyenut
09-01-2003, 08:46 PM
Phillie is stacked with minor league pitching. My only hope is that the cash we are adding to the deal is getting us someone of the level of Belisle or so out of this thing. (Madsen, Madsen, Madsen maybe subliminal messaging will work :) )

If Stinnett is valuable to someone, then maybe, just maybe Castro is too. With any luck, he or Wilson might still go, pending injury.

I'm a little surprised STL or HOU haven't come inquiring about Wilson with the way he has been pitching lately and the status of their pens.

buckeyenut
09-01-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Bill
Larue is eligible for arbitration right? With the current extreme cost-cutting taking place, I am not sure that Larue is even safe. particularly if Sardinha shows he can put the bat on the ball occasionally at the major league level.

LaRue is an above average major league catcher making below average money even after arb. He is not the type of guy you deal to save money.

To be honest, I can't say I have a problem with a single move they have made since Bowden left. Only possible exception would be the Williamson deal and that only because I thought he might get slightly more in return.

Bill
09-01-2003, 09:00 PM
They dealt their best pitcher because he was about to get a raise. Larue is not due what Williamson would have netted but I see them viewing a secondary FA market filled with cheap alternatives. They are "rebuilding" and won't win next year anyway. I could definitely see them trading him if htey get back some cheap young talent. It is not like they have not tried in the past.

pedro
09-01-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Bill
They are "rebuilding" and won't win next year anyway.

I'm not convinced that the Reds won't be in better shape this offseason than they were last. IMO, if the reds commit next year to the same payroll as this year and make good acquisitions in the offseason, they'll be much better than they were this year.

This is why...

Boone, much as I like him, can be replaced and most everyone else traded were middle relievers (even williamson), and middle relievers, even as good as ours were, can be replaced. Good teams are not built around high priced middle relievers. Especially small to mid market teams such as the Reds. It became obvious that the Reds were not going to win this year and cost escalation made it inevitable that some guys were going to have to go. I think the the Reds have made the right choices about who had to go, whether they made the right choices concerning what they got in return is a question yet to be answered. Still, I think they're in ok shape. TJMO :)

REDREAD
09-01-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Bill
Larue is eligible for arbitration right? With the current extreme cost-cutting taking place, I am not sure that Larue is even safe. particularly if Sardinha shows he can put the bat on the ball occasionally at the major league level.

I wouldn't doubt it Bill.. this does kind of make sense.. if Sardinha can get a few hits, the FO can proclaim "he's turned the corner".. kind of like they did with Larson last year.

Allen has made moves to pinch less money than LaRue's salary.. I wouldn't be surprised to see LaRue shopped. And if LaRue does come back for 2004, the odds of him coming back for 2005 are extremely small, IMO.

Ga_Red
09-02-2003, 12:11 AM
2/09/07

M2
09-02-2003, 02:15 AM
No reason crying over losing Stinnett, but if the Reds traded him AND cash, then they ought to get a serviceable prospect in return. I'm with buckeyenut, channel thoughts of Ryan Madson in the hopes that maybe it comes true.

pedro
09-02-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by Ga_Red
"...if the Reds committ to the same payroll for next year..."

Be serious.

CL SAID the Reds lose 12 million in 2003.
CL SAID the Reds must break even.

The math:

Budget for 2003.............57 million
Shortfall for 2003...........12 million
Breakeven for 2003.......45 million
less attend in 2004..........3 million

Normal BUDGET 2004......42 million
Less 2003 shrtfall............12 million

Actual Budget for 2004....30 million dollars.
=============

Count on it!

could you name your sources? ;)

Bill
09-02-2003, 02:59 AM
According to Hal, the Reds are sending 250k to cover the buyout, thus the savings are reduced to just the last month of the season salary wise. Does 250k buy a good prospect? Still, this is Stinnett we are discussing and we were expecting more back for giving the sox 300k and a setup man.

Phillies cash in


The Reds gave more than back-up catcher Kelly Stinnett to the Philadelphia Phillies for a player to be named later. The club didn't announce it, but the Reds sent the Phillies $250,000, the amount the Phillies need to buy out Stinnett's contract after the season.

The Phillies are paying the last month of Stinnett's $1.3 million salary for this year. Stinnett and the Reds had a mutual option for 2004 at $750,000, with the team owning Stinnett's contract able to buy out next year's portion at $250,000 — the money the Reds sent to Philadelphia with Stinnett and his catcher's gear.

Now the Reds will get a player for their $250,000, rather than hand the cash to Stinnett and get nothing in return.

GAC
09-02-2003, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by GradyHatton
I'm wondering why I keep hearing (John Fay and Chris Welsh today, Kevin Kelly yesterday) and reading that Corky Miller is likely to be Stinnett's replacement as backup catcher in 2004. With all due respect to Jason LaRue, Johnny Bench he ain't. I should think that Miller and possibly others would go to ST competing for the starting job. LaRue has a great arm and has improved some previous defensive liabilities but coming in today at .229 I'm not ready to hand the keys to the catcher's box over to him just yet. Maybe woy or Raisor can supply some "catcher's ERA" or "OBPSP (?)" or other conclusive stats to bring me around. :confused: ;)

It was earlier in the season, and I don't recall if it was SD or Raisor; but they posted some stats showing that Corky and LaRue are about equal on the offensive line of things; but LaRue is far superior from a defensive standpoint.

buckeyenut
09-02-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Bill
They dealt their best pitcher because he was about to get a raise. Larue is not due what Williamson would have netted but I see them viewing a secondary FA market filled with cheap alternatives. They are "rebuilding" and won't win next year anyway. I could definitely see them trading him if htey get back some cheap young talent. It is not like they have not tried in the past.

I'm sorry, but this is a crock.

They dealt their "best pitcher" because he was a closer and because we have four options in our pen right now for closer in Reidling, Graves, Reitsma and Wagner. They dealt Willy because he will make 5M or more next year and because someone in this organization determined that he could not be a starter.

The biggest thing that upsets me about that deal is they didn't try Willy in the rotation. I still firmly believe, although there are many who disagree with me, that he is a potential #1 as a starter. But for this team, if you aren't gonna try Willy as a starter, it made absolute perfect sense to deal him.

LaRue is 1-2M and your organization does not have depth at C. He is also above average and by far the best option in your organization. I repeat, these are the types of guys you don't get rid of. Cheap and above average.

Now, if LaRue was slated to make 5M, then yeah, I might dump him.

Bill
09-02-2003, 08:23 AM
Larue is making 1.25 mill this season. He will be making more than 1-2 mill as you suggest, conversely Willy won't be getting a raise to the level of 5 mill.

Your other point with Larue is they don't have catching depth- Miller is your starter and as pointed out, they should be able to get a cheap replacement of the FA market, then there is Sardinha. On the other hand, pitching is so rich, that they can afford to move Willy for essentially cash? Now there is your crock.

redrum
09-02-2003, 09:05 AM
Willy can expect somewhere between 3.5-4.5 million in arbitration. It would probably have been in the upper range of that had he finished the year as the Reds closer.

Krusty
09-02-2003, 09:39 AM
And with Willy's inconsistency as a closer, do you think he would be worth that kind of money if he was still a Red?

westofyou
09-02-2003, 10:11 AM
Actual Budget for 2004....30 million dollars.

The Devil Rays "operating budget"is 31 million (20 million MLB)and is holding the bottom down in MLB this season, your suggestion is that the Reds will bottom that out, is that the MLB total?

Or total basbeall budget?

Ever see this?Whenever "competitive balance" is debated, the debaters inevitably turn to published information about team payrolls to support their positions. This sounds straightforward... but unfortunately, "team payroll" is a fluid concept. The four most widely reported measures each use different methods and can lead to different conclusions.

The four measures are (1) the Opening Day payrolls reported by the AP and USA Today a week or so into the season; (2) the August 31 payrolls reported by MLB after the season; (3) the August 31 average team salaries reported by the MLBPA after the season; and (4) the luxury tax payrolls reported by MLB after the season.

The first three have a lot in common. Each begins with the salary of every player on a club's 25-man roster, or its major league disabled list, as of the stated date. Each computes each player's base salary in the same way: the actual amount he is paid during the season, plus a pro-rated share of his signing bonus and the discounted present value of any part of his salary which is deferred to a future year. Each has a common flaw: by taking a snapshot of the roster as of a specific date, it ignores the effect of midseason player moves.

The MLBPA's formula has a more serious flaw which renders it essentially useless for meaningful team-to-team comparison. Its averaging method involves dividing the club's total payroll by the number of players on its roster-plus-DL. However, the size of the disabled list varies widely from team to team. In 2002 just 26 players were used to compute the Kansas City and Oakland averages, while San Diego's average was based on a 36-man roster. Thus while the August 31 payrolls for Oakland and San Diego were virtually identical, Oakland's reported average was $450,000 higher. Given the other information available, that's an unacceptable variance.

Here are each club's 2002 payrolls as computed by the three other methods:



Opening Day Aug. 31 Luxury Tax
Team Payroll Payroll Difference Payroll Difference

Anaheim Angels $ 61,721,667 $ 62,757,041 $ 1,035,374 $ 69,449,444 $ 7,727,777
Arizona Diamondbacks $102,820,000 $103,528,877 $ 708,877 $106,590,086 $ 3,770,086
Atlanta Braves $ 93,470,367 $ 93,786,065 $ 315,698 $103,035,498 $ 9,565,131
Baltimore Orioles $ 60,493,487 $ 56,504,685 ($ 3,988,802) $ 64,351,025 $ 3,857,538
Boston Red Sox $108,366,060 $110,249,535 $ 1,883,475 $106,060,766 ($ 2,305,294)

Chicago Cubs $ 75,690,833 $ 74,950,543 ($ 740,290) $ 81,104,031 $ 5,413,198
Chicago White Sox $ 57,052,833 $ 54,534,084 ($ 2,518,749) $ 57,800,783 $ 747,950
Cincinnati Reds $ 45,050,390 $ 46,310,698 $ 1,260,308 $ 54,663,420 $ 9,613,030
Cleveland Indians $ 78,909,448 $ 74,888,365 ($ 4,021,083) $ 82,693,915 $ 3,784,467
Colorado Rockies $ 56,851,043 $ 56,509,185 ($ 341,858) $ 72,300,867 $15,449,824

Detroit Tigers $ 55,048,000 $ 54,390,870 ($ 657,130) $ 67,589,693 $12,541,693
Florida Marlins $ 41,979,917 $ 40,822,536 ($ 1,157,381) $ 45,369,104 $ 3,389,187
Houston Astros $ 63,448,417 $ 65,412,960 $ 1,964,543 $ 74,384,060 $10,935,643
Kansas City Royals $ 47,257,000 $ 49,362,709 $ 2,105,709 $ 50,973,807 $ 3,716,807
Los Angeles Dodgers $ 94,850,952 $101,504,889 $ 6,653,937 $112,274,884 $17,423,932

Milwaukee Brewers $ 50,287,333 $ 49,259,130 ($ 1,028,203) $ 50,455,737 $ 168,404
Minnesota Twins $ 40,225,000 $ 41,309,031 $ 1,084,031 $ 45,931,954 $ 5,706,954
Montreal Expos $ 38,670,500 $ 37,901,032 ($ 769,468) $ 35,814,751 ($ 2,855,749)
New York Mets $ 94,633,593 $ 94,395,575 ($ 238,018) $102,182,193 $ 7,548,600
New York Yankees $125,928,583 $133,429,757 $ 7,500,992 $167,592,745 $41,664,162

Oakland Athletics $ 39,679,746 $ 41,942,665 $ 2,262,919 $ 58,143,776 $18,464,030
Philadelphia Phillies $ 57,955,000 $ 59,593,741 $ 1,638,741 $ 64,505,697 $ 6,550,697
Pittsburgh Pirates $ 42,323,598 $ 46,059,984 $ 3,736,386 $ 55,967,080 $13,643,482
St. Louis Cardinals $ 74,098,267 $ 76,227,801 $ 2,129,534 $ 88,378,549 $14,280,282
San Diego Padres $ 41,425,000 $ 41,791,170 $ 366,170 $ 57,943,130 $16,518,130

San Francisco Giants $ 78,299,835 $ 78,426,572 $ 126,737 $ 88,488,058 $10,188,223
Seattle Mariners $ 80,282,668 $ 86,084,710 $ 5,802,432 $ 92,310,287 $12,027,619
Tampa Bay Devil Rays $ 34,380,000 $ 34,728,540 $ 348,540 $ 36,249,505 $ 1,869,505
Texas Rangers $105,302,124 $106,915,180 $ 1,613,056 $122,887,987 $17,585,863
Toronto Blue Jays $ 76,864,333 $ 66,814,971 ($10,049,762) $ 58,963,374 ($17,900,959)

Sources:


Opening Day salaries: Associated Press (4/4/02)
August 31 salaries: Associated Press (10/11/02)
Luxury tax salaries: USA Today (11/13/02), adjusted to remove $7,734,310 of benefits per team



Although the AP's Opening Day payroll information is unofficial, it's quite accurate. When I've been able to verify published salary figures against the official data, 99% of the salaries matched and the differences were usually just a few thousand dollars.
Opening Day payrolls, not MLB's official figures as of August 31, are the best measurement of which, if any, clubs truly "can't afford to compete." They reflect each club's offseason budgeting and roster management, the process through which the club decides whom to trade, whom to non-tender and whom to pursue in the free agent market. Once the season begins, payrolls tend to vary with the club's fortunes. Contenders acquire high-earning veterans for the stretch drive--an intelligent strategy, since MLB's 2001 financial disclosures show that making the playoffs was worth a collective $45.5 million to the eight qualifiers--while teams that have fallen out of the race dump salaries. (Can you spot the Raul Mondesi trade in Columns 1 and 2?) A spectacular example of the latter phenomenon occurred in 1995, when the New York Mets slashed salaries by 46% in midseason to finish with the lowest payroll in the majors.

Thus when MLB's Blue Ribbon Economic Panel Report used August 31 payrolls to contend that "small market teams" (in fact, low payroll teams) "couldn't compete," it improperly relied upon tainted data. Any claimed causal connection between a low payroll and a poor record is inherently suspect where, as here, the payrolls were measured after each club had already adjusted its payroll to reflect its midseason record.

In the context of payrolls and competitive balance, note that three of the four clubs with the lowest Opening Day payrolls finished with winning records. Two, Oakland and Minnesota, won their divisions. Meanwhile, Milwaukee lost 106 games while outspending the Twins and Athletics by $10 million, and Detroit lost 106 while spending $5 million more than the Brewers. These clubs can afford to compete--they just don't know how.

However, one problem with the use of Opening Day payrolls is that many players' salaries can't be fully calculated as of Opening Day. Incentive clauses can boost the earnings of players selected to the All-Star team or awarded Gold Gloves. In addition, players viewed as injury risks often receive incentive-laden contracts accompanying relatively low base salaries. David Wells was last season's incentive-bonus champion, earning $4 million beyond his base salary of $2,250,000. Even for the Yankees, that's not chump change. A better way of computing team payroll would be to attribute each player's total compensation to the club with which he started the season.

For predicting each club's future, though, the luxury tax payroll is the tool to use. The luxury tax payroll differs from the regular payroll in two major ways. First, it includes the cost of player benefits--$7,734,310 per club in 2002, which was subtracted from the figures above. More importantly, for luxury tax purposes each year of a multi-year contract is valued at the average annual value of the contract, regardless of how the salaries are actually distributed. For example, the contract of a player earning $3 million in 2003, $4 million in 2004 and $5 million in 2005 will be valued at $4 million for each of these seasons.

A club's luxury tax payroll is, therefore, a good indicator of how much free money it is likely to have in upcoming seasons. Where the luxury tax payroll far exceeds the actual payroll, the club has a large number of players in the early years of back-loaded contracts. In an extreme case like the Yankees, such contracts will absorb an ever-larger share of George Steinbrenner's resources even as their principal rivals--the Red Sox and Blue Jays--shed bloated contracts and reload. For Oakland, which has the second highest differential because the they bought out the arbitration-eligible seasons of their best young talent, the exodus of players when they become eligible for free agency is likely to continue.

For those interested in performing their own analyses, a spreadsheet with team-by-team payroll information can be downloaded from my Web site.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030219pappas.shtml

gm
09-02-2003, 10:57 AM
Dane Sardinha = first to the show from his (Red's) draft class

(I'm sorry princeton, but I'm having trouble remembering the pitcher you chose that year. Good luck re: Kelley vs. Moye)

Ga_Red
09-02-2003, 12:16 PM
2/09/07

CougarQuest
09-02-2003, 01:51 PM
From Tony Jackson, Cincinnati Post


While the identity remains unknown of the player to be named the Reds are getting in the Stinnett trade, it probably won't be anyone who is close to being ready for the major leagues, or even a top-level prospect. The Philadelphia Phillies wanted Stinnett badly, but he still is a backup catcher making $1.3 million this season, with a buyout of $250,000 on his $750,000 mutual option for next year. After trading him, the Reds have no one left on their roster with a buyout clause for next season, which should create a little more payroll flexibility.

CougarQuest
09-02-2003, 01:57 PM
From the Dayton Daily News


The Reds gave more than back-up catcher Kelly Stinnett to the Philadelphia Phillies for a player to be named later. The club didn't announce it, but the Reds sent the Phillies $250,000, the amount the Phillies need to buy out Stinnett's contract after the season.

The Phillies are paying the last month of Stinnett's $1.3 million salary for this year. Stinnett and the Reds had a mutual option for 2004 at $750,000, with the team owning Stinnett's contract able to buy out next year's portion at $250,000 — the money the Reds sent to Philadelphia with Stinnett and his catcher's gear.

Now the Reds will get a player for their $250,000, rather than hand the cash to Stinnett and get nothing in return.

Snapper
09-02-2003, 02:59 PM
The PTBNL is an OF.

creek14
09-02-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Snapper
The PTBNL is an OF.
Oh boy, 1/4 million for an OF. It better be Pat Burrell.

Snapper
09-02-2003, 03:24 PM
Nope. According to the ESPN.com transactions page its now OF Eric Valent.

Kc61
09-02-2003, 03:25 PM
The Reds didn't pay the $250,000 for a PTNL. Stinnett had the $250 coming to him as an off-season buyout. You have to view it as part of his salary.

Presumably, nobody would agree to pick up both Stinnett's remaining salary and the $250 buy out. So the Reds took (from the Phils) relief from the remaining 2003 salary, but kept the obligation to pay the buy out.

In other words, even though the Reds paid money, it was a salary dump. I don't think a great prospect is coming back.

westofyou
09-02-2003, 03:28 PM
Nope. According to the ESPN.com transactions page its now OF Eric Valent.

from BP's 2003 book

If premature callup can damage a player's future than Valient is exhibit A.

On pace to be a solid ML bench player through mid 2001 he suffered a horrendous stint in MLBand hasn't recovered, both his pitch selection and power dropped last year. His only hope to ressurect his career might be elsewhere.

creek14
09-02-2003, 03:28 PM
Eric Valent - ML stats


BREAKDOWN G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
CAREER 29 51 4 6 2 0 0 1 4 14 0 0 .118 .196 .157 .353

DBFROMNVA
09-02-2003, 03:45 PM
for Stinnett per cnnsi.com transactions.

Marty and Joe
09-02-2003, 03:47 PM
Valent was a top prospect just a year or two ago.... We'll have to go see what he's been up to since then...

GoReds
09-02-2003, 03:50 PM
Valent, Eric >> Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Red Barons (AAA)


AVG G AB R H RBI 2B 3B HR BB SO SB CS
.218 134 450 62 98 51 27 2 12 60 102 0 0

REDREAD
09-02-2003, 03:50 PM
Does Valent have any tools? :)

Not that I expected much from Stinnet though

CougarQuest
09-02-2003, 03:55 PM
WLW reported that he was the Phillies number 1 outfield prospect.

They also said he was 26 years old.

creek14
09-02-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by CougarQuest
WLW reported that he was the Phillies number 1 outfield prospect.

On Sunday nights (with Bill Boshears) WLW reports that contrails are the govt's way of poisoning us.

KronoRed
09-02-2003, 04:11 PM
If he was the Phils number 1 outfield prospect, that farm system must be in really bad shape. :eek:

wolfboy
09-02-2003, 04:12 PM
On Sunday nights (with Bill Boshears) WLW reports that contrails are the govt's way of poisoning us.

I've heard that guy once or twice. Too funny creek. :lol:

SYCMiniBus
09-02-2003, 04:25 PM
He is probably not the Phils #1 guy but he is close. He has bigtime natural power (more college HR's then Troy Glaus at UCLA) he has tools, he is said to have a cannon from the OF he is a corner OF not enough speed or natural instincts for CF. He strikes out a ton though but he can draw a walk. He is a run producer (has driven in close to 80 every season in the minors). He is the classic "change of scenery could help" guy. He still has time but his star has faded big time. That being said he could be a very very good player, but with Kearns, Dunn, Pena, Smitherman, and Mateo I don't see where he fits in with this team. He is older then all of them and not all that much more advanced then any of them.
NOTE: His last very good season was 2001 where he hit .272/.352/489 at AAA. Also had 21 HR's and 78 RBI.

westofyou
09-02-2003, 04:27 PM
http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2525

CougarQuest
09-02-2003, 04:43 PM
Is this the original WMP?

knuckler
09-02-2003, 04:55 PM
Looks like potential competition with Dernell Stenson and Reggie Taylor for the role of left-handed bat on the bench.

Buckeye33
09-02-2003, 05:02 PM
Taylor will not be back on this team next season. Bank on it.

buckeyenut
09-02-2003, 05:03 PM
He will be competing with Stenson and Mateo for the role formerly played by Juan Encarnacion and Jose Guillen entitled "fourth OFer who thinks he's a superstar and who the media thinks we should deal Jr because he started out hot."

SYCMiniBus
09-02-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by buckeyenut
He will be competing with Stenson and Mateo for the role formerly played by Juan Encarnacion and Jose Guillen entitled "fourth OFer who thinks he's a superstar and who the media thinks we should deal Jr because he started out hot."

What makes you think Stenson or Mateo is ahead of Pena or Smitherman on the OF depth chart. My guess is neither makes the team next season. Griffey, Kearns, Dunn, Pena, Smitherman, and Taylor is my OF guess.

gm
09-02-2003, 06:26 PM
Valent kinda reminds me of Mike Frank, but with better OB stats

CougarQuest
09-02-2003, 09:34 PM
PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- The Cincinnati Reds acquired outfielder Eric Valent from the Phillies on Tuesday to complete a trade that sent catcher Kelly Stinnett to Philadelphia on Sunday.

Valent hit .218 with 12 homers and 51 RBIs in 134 games for Triple-A Scranton Wilkes-Barre. He was the Phillies' supplemental pick in the first round (42nd overall) of the 1998 amateur draft as compensation for Philadelphia losing J.D. Drew, who wouldn't sign with the team after being selected No. 2 overall in 1997.

Valent appeared in 22 games for the Phillies in 2001 and seven games in 2002, batting .118 (6-for-51).

To make room for Valent on the their 40-man roster, the Reds moved third baseman Brandon Larson to the 60-day disabled list. Larson had season-ending surgery on his left shoulder on Tuesday morning.

CougarQuest
09-02-2003, 10:00 PM
Valent obtained: Outfielder Eric Valent joined the Reds as the player to be named in the completion of Sunday's trade that sent catcher Kelly Stinnett to Philadelphia.

Valent, 26, hit .218 with 12 homers and 51 RBIs in 134 games with the Phillies' Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre affiliate. He was expected to join the Reds during Tuesday's game and will wear No. 68.

Valent's claim to fame was breaking Troy Glaus' home-run record at UCLA. Philadelphia then selected him in the supplemental portion of the first round (42nd overall) of the 1998 First-Year Player Draft. Before this season, Baseball America ranked Valent as the Phillies' best defensive outfielder and rated him as having the organization's top outfield arm.

To accommodate Valent on the 40-man roster, the Reds transferred third baseman Brandon Larson from the 15- to the 60-day disabled list. Larson underwent season-ending surgery on his left shoulder Tuesday.

Dan
09-02-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by gm
Valent kinda reminds me of Mike Frank,
but with better OB stats

Reminds me of a LH hitting Brandon Larson.

buckeyenut
09-02-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by SYCMiniBus
What makes you think Stenson or Mateo is ahead of Pena or Smitherman on the OF depth chart. My guess is neither makes the team next season. Griffey, Kearns, Dunn, Pena, Smitherman, and Taylor is my OF guess.

I don't. But Smitherman and Pena are prospects. They don't fit the Guillen/Encarnacion mold that Valent does potentially, a failed prospect elsewhere who comes in and tears it up for us. That's all :)

redlegs2370
09-03-2003, 08:52 AM
This guy can't hit AAA pitching why would they think he could hit major league pitching.

I would have rathered they took a chance on a guy in A ball. This trade makes me want to throw up. Waisting a spot on the 40 man roster also.

Bad move by the front office. Better off not resigning Stinnett after the season, I can't see them saving that much money since they sent 250,000 to Phily.

Kc61
09-03-2003, 09:31 AM
Valent is irrelevant. This was simply to get rid of some of Stinnett's salary. Valent will give the Reds a warm body for Louisville next year, that's all.

CougarQuest
09-03-2003, 08:38 PM
From the Cincinnati Post

Valent, 26, and Reds infielder Ryan Freel were teammates as high schoolers on the 1994 U.S. Junior Olympic team.

"We talk all the time whenever we're playing each other," Freel said. "He's a great player. He swings from the left side, and he's got a little bit of pop. He can play anywhere in the outfield."