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NEILYNG
09-09-2003, 01:07 AM
Why don't the Reds dump Casey and his awful contract too and resign Roberto petagine from the Japanese Leagues. He has torn it up since he went there.

Some players just mature later in their careers and it looks like Petagine's stats rival anyone who ever has come from Japan to the big leagues and played well.

Heck, the Reds would be better if they brought back Petagine to play first; Pokey Reese to play shortstop and let Olmedo play second and D-Angelo play third. I am not a Reese fan, but the club looks better with him in there.

wheels
09-09-2003, 01:12 AM
They can't just dump Casey, BECAUSE of that bad contract.

And as far as the two names you listed, there will be better options this offseason.

Ravenlord
09-09-2003, 01:23 AM
what are his numbers?

pedro
09-09-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Ravenlord
what are his numbers?

couldn't find them. but did find this about last year.

Even before he took the lead in the Central League home run race, the Japanese media noticed something unusual about Petagine, and they dubbed it "Love Power." It seems -- according to Nikkan Sports and other Japanese sports papers -- that Petagine hits best when his wife is sitting behind the Swallows' dugout. Whatever the reason, Petagine led the CL with 44 home runs and 116 base on balls while also batting .325 with 112 RBIs. At the beginning of the season, Petagine took his time to learn the pitchers and get adjusted to their style. As the season continued, his batting average continued to rise at the same pace as his home runs. Petagine also stole 10 bases in 11 attempts, and he only missed one game of the season, to attend a diplomatic function in his honor.

Raisor
09-09-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Ravenlord
what are his numbers?

I haven't been able to find his 2003 Japanese numbers, but before that (2308 Japanese plate apperances) he had a 451 OBP and a 639 SLG

The problem with Petagine is that there is no way the Reds would be able to beat his Japanese contract. He's, IIRC, is currently the highest paid player in Japan, something like 11-mil a year.

VR
09-09-2003, 01:42 AM
1999-2002 stats (http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1154)

cincinnati chili
09-09-2003, 08:11 AM
Petagine really wanted to come back to North America this winter. He was asking for a $3 million one year contract this off-season from a major league team, before his Japanese team jumped in with a 2-year $12 million deal. So he won't come back to the U.S. until at least the 2005 season. By then he'll be 34 or 35, I think.

It really would have been interesting to see him get another chance in the U.S, while he was in the prime of his career. I don't think his MLB teams were patient enough with him.

Major league equivalencies suggest that he would have hit at least as well as Hideki Matsui in the U.S. and probably much better.

remdog
09-09-2003, 09:43 AM
Obviously, this thread is a Richard Hand 'plant'. ;)

Rem

REDREAD
09-09-2003, 10:29 AM
You know, I'm happy for Pentagine.
He never realized his dream here, but at least he's a star over there.
I'm not claiming he got screwed or anything while he was here, but it's nice that his story has a happy ending.

Chip R
09-09-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by remdog
Obviously, this thread is a Richard Hand 'plant'. ;)

Rem More like Drew Nelson.

Redny
09-09-2003, 10:53 AM
Nice to see your still on the Petagine bandwagon Neil.

15fan
09-09-2003, 10:57 AM
I always like getting updates on the guy who was going to be "the next George Foster".

gm
09-09-2003, 11:34 AM
Roberto Petagine is a really tired take from the listserv, a chat forum for "select" Red's fans holding certain strong opinions. Now that Pokey, BaBoone and Bowden have been "shown the door" my guess is Casey has become their latest whipping boy.

The more thngs change...they've gotta be happy with Miley as Mgr, right? Or has Dave somehow pissed them off and become IM04, already?

Raisor
09-09-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by gm
Roberto Petagine is a really tired take from the listserv, a chat forum for "select" Red's fans holding certain strong opinions. Now that Pokey, BaBoone and Bowden have been "shown the door" my guess is Casey has become their latest whipping boy.



by the way, anyone can join the listserv, it's not "select."

NEILYNG
09-09-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by wheels
They can't just dump Casey, BECAUSE of that bad contract.

And as far as the two names you listed, there will be better options this offseason.

I had read the same thing -- that Petagine wanted to come bck to the US and wanted something around $3 mill to do it.

I am not Richard Hand, Drew Nelson or -- last time I checked -- Neil Young. But I do think Roberto Petagine would be a better option that Sean Casey. For the cost of Petagine the Reds could acquire Petagine and offer to soak up part of Casey's contract in a deal. They need to be thinking about these kinds of things moving forward.

Pokey Reese is not going to change the Reds world -- but he too would be a stop gap that would be better than any option they currently have.

I got sick of Pokey at leadoff and his inflated opinion of himself -- but his OBP is looking good now compared to the guys the Reds have tried there -- AND from the sounds of thingsd, the Reds have some first year guys who are acting like they are MLB veterans out there -- attitude-wise. Nothing could be farther from accurate.

The defense sucks. they are making rookie mistakes, heck, they are just making mistakes. The Reds have done dumber things than bringing Pokey back in the short run.

Chip R
09-09-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
I am not Richard Hand, Drew Nelson or -- last time I checked -- Neil Young. But I do think Roberto Petagine would be a better option that Sean Casey. For the cost of Petagine the Reds could acquire Petagine and offer to soak up part of Casey's contract in a deal. They need to be thinking about these kinds of things moving forward. Hey, NEIL, build a bridge and get over it. :lol:

westofyou
09-09-2003, 12:28 PM
Hey, NEIL, build a bridge and get over it.

ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz;)

gm
09-09-2003, 12:29 PM
Yessir, here's the link http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/cintired.html

I enjoyed "lurking" the archives until registration was required. The content of the page was never such that I felt compelled to contribute (and as a rule I avoid opportunities to increase my daily email intake)

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by gm
Roberto Petagine is a really tired take from the listserv, a chat forum for "select" Red's fans holding certain strong opinions. Now that Pokey, BaBoone and Bowden have been "shown the door" my guess is Casey has become their latest whipping boy.


The Listserv is anything BUT a "select" group of Reds fans. If anything -- it was what it must have been like to being a Nazi -- run by a guy named Bill Lack -- who is so narrow-minded yet has such an inflated opinion of himself that he makes Charlton Heston look like a nice guy.

An ex-Marine, Lack lives in a place in his mind that doesn't allow opinions that are different from his own. He has some major "control" and even temper issues that surface fairly frequently in his posts -- so all he has left are people who see it as normal to hang around and post in his area while living under a Hitler-like existance. He might be the biggest jerk I have ever encountered on the Internet.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 01:35 AM
Pardon me for rambling with some possibilities that didn't happen. I have a terrible cold and have been taking NyQuil. Must be the hallucinations.

What if -- the Reds had dumped Bowden a few years back and made a couple of moves differently....

(1) What if -- they had gotten just one first round draft pick right and had a starter in their rotation to show for their efforts? An example would be Mark Prior or Barry Zito or Tim Hudson or countless others from teams who did get one right. Let's go with Prior and say he represents this one change.

(2) What if -- they had kept Roberto Petagine and Paul Konerko and traded Casey when his value was high for more pitching? Let's say it was for a Livan Hernandez.

(3) What if -- instead of dinking around so long trying to get Mark Wohlers turned around, or Jose Rijo to comeback or Deion Sanders or Kevin Mitchell or Jimmy Anderson or countless others -- and some youngster had developed like they could/should have.

(4) What if -- Barry Larkin had been traded and the Reds got some decent young infielders for him, and kept Bret Boone.

(5) What if -- Junior had just come to Cincy as a free agent and never got hurt and kept his play at pre-Cincy levels?

(6) What if -- the Reds had taken Scott Rolen up on his desire to play for Cincinnati?

(7) What if -- they brought in someone like Rob Nen who won't get much more opportunity in SD now that Trevor Hoffman is coming back?

(8) What if -- because of the moves above -- we could be grooming Adam Dunn to really be a decent ball player long term, with improved contact and/or defense?

C -- Jason LaRue
1B -- Paul Konerko
2B -- Brett Boone
SS -- Pokey Reese
3B -- Scott Rolen
LF -- Roberto Petagine
CF -- Junior Griffey
RF -- Austin Kearns

P -- Mark Prior
P -- Livan Hernandez
P -- Brandon Claussen
P -- Paul Wilson
P -- Jose Acevedo
P -- Ryan Wagner
P -- Rob Nen
P -- John Reidling
P -- Aaron Harang
P -- Danny Graves
P -- Chris Reitsma

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Chip R
Hey, NEIL, build a bridge and get over it. :lol:

Is someone showing their true colors????

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by wheels
They can't just dump Casey, BECAUSE of that bad contract.

And as far as the two names you listed, there will be better options this offseason.

So who are your "better options" that you have in mind???

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by pedro
couldn't find them. but did find this about last year.

Even before he took the lead in the Central League home run race, the Japanese media noticed something unusual about Petagine, and they dubbed it "Love Power." It seems -- according to Nikkan Sports and other Japanese sports papers -- that Petagine hits best when his wife is sitting behind the Swallows' dugout. Whatever the reason, Petagine led the CL with 44 home runs and 116 base on balls while also batting .325 with 112 RBIs. At the beginning of the season, Petagine took his time to learn the pitchers and get adjusted to their style. As the season continued, his batting average continued to rise at the same pace as his home runs. Petagine also stole 10 bases in 11 attempts, and he only missed one game of the season, to attend a diplomatic function in his honor.

That is interesting. I bet he never had anything even remotely resembling a "diplomatic function in his honor" while in Cincy -- not even consideration for a bobble-head night.

I just think that the Reds really missed it with him -- he was not playing on teams where there was any reason whatsoever to overlook him. He rang up stats that were incredible and has still done that in japan over a long period of time.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Chip R
More like Drew Nelson.

Since when do "moderators" have free reign to take potshots at clearly legitimate posts on Reds related topics?

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Chip R
Hey, NEIL, build a bridge and get over it. :lol:

This is so wrong to see -- especially from someone who is empowered with "moderator" status.

SYCMiniBus
09-10-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
This is so wrong to see -- especially from someone who is empowered with "moderator" status.

Uhoh a moderator voicing an opinion on an opinion driven message board we must stop that from happening.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by SYCMiniBus
Uhoh a moderator voicing an opinion on an opinion driven message board we must stop that from happening.

Don't wander into some place that you know absolutely nothing about. A word to the wise is sufficient.

savafan
09-10-2003, 09:39 AM
Neil, no reason to get all bent out of shape. I don't know for certain, but I think from the smiley in Chip's post, that it was meant as a non-offensive joke on your name.

Chip R
09-10-2003, 09:58 AM
Unfortunately, NEIL can dish it out (telling everyone and his brother to "build a bridge and get over it") but he cannot take it when someone else tells him that even when it was meant in a joking manner. As for the Drew Nelson reference, someone mentioned that Richard Hand used to be very high on Petagine and I was just saying that it was Drew Nelson who was the big RP fan.

Getting back to the subject at hand, RP is, was and always will be a ham-n-egger on the major league level. A AAAA player at best. The Reds weren't the only team to give up on him. He has had various chances with several teams including a season long stint with the Mets or the Padres - I can't remember which one. I'm happy he's having success and making money over in Japan. But there's a huge difference in doing well in Japan and doing well in the major leagues. Just as there is a huge difference between doing well in AAA and doing well in the majors.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Chip R
Unfortunately, NEIL can dish it out (telling everyone and his brother to "build a bridge and get over it") but he cannot take it when someone else tells him that even when it was meant in a joking manner. As for the Drew Nelson reference, someone mentioned that Richard Hand used to be very high on Petagine and I was just saying that it was Drew Nelson who was the big RP fan.

Getting back to the subject at hand, RP is, was and always will be a ham-n-egger on the major league level. A AAAA player at best. The Reds weren't the only team to give up on him. He has had various chances with several teams including a season long stint with the Mets or the Padres - I can't remember which one. I'm happy he's having success and making money over in Japan. But there's a huge difference in doing well in Japan and doing well in the major leagues. Just as there is a huge difference between doing well in AAA and doing well in the majors.

Chip: Where have I made that statement ??? I think you are getting areas mixed up. But you do need to get over it.

If you have a problem with me -- as moderator you should not have to be reminded of using the PM feature.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by savafan
Neil, no reason to get all bent out of shape. I don't know for certain, but I think from the smiley in Chip's post, that it was meant as a non-offensive joke on your name.

No, that is NOT what Chip was referring to. I am going to demonstarte something that "moderator" Chip cannot demonstrate -- restraint. Suffice to say that Chip should be able to know that what he is doing is underhanded attempts to disrupt and harass me in this area -- for stating my opinion in an opinion board (as someone so accurately stated before).

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Redny
Nice to see your still on the Petagine bandwagon Neil.

Thanks, I appreciate that allot.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Chip R
RP is, was and always will be a ham-n-egger on the major league level. A AAAA player at best. The Reds weren't the only team to give up on him. He has had various chances with several teams including a season long stint with the Mets or the Padres - I can't remember which one. I'm happy he's having success and making money over in Japan. But there's a huge difference in doing well in Japan and doing well in the major leagues. Just as there is a huge difference between doing well in AAA and doing well in the majors.

I don't agree with this assessment. Petagine may be one of those guys who comes into his own a little later than others. Couple that with the FACT that he really wasn't given much of a shot at a stretch of full-time play -- and you have somebody who fell through the cracks.

I do agree that stats in Japan are not stats in the MLB but there has been much written on this in many places including Baseball Prospectus and by Bill James (who you folks like to selectively quote when what he says fits your position).

James has stated that stats in Japan can be adjusted to about 80% to allow for the weaker pitchers, smaller parks, poorer defense. He says it is between AAA and the MLB -- above AAA (which I think you meant to say when you stated that you felt Petagine was a AAAA player at best) and below MLB stats.

I think there are enough examples of players coming over here or back here from Japan to validate that to a large degree.

Does this guarantee that Petagine would come back and do well at the MLB level? No. But at a time when the Reds are trying guys like Dan Serafini and this Cere guy coming over from the Mexican Leagues -- and at a time when they seem to be entertaining the idea of bringing Pokey Reese back -- I say it is worth a try....as much as any of those gonzo-bizarre moves.

The Casey contract has to go and this would be one way to have that happen with a good shot at no downside.

MWM
09-10-2003, 11:39 AM
Chip is such a troublemaker here on RedsZone. He's always starting fights and just isn't a very likeable guy. I just can't stand him. :evilgrin:

Hey Neil, if you hate it here so much, I've got a good solution for you. LEAVE!

Have you noticed that almost everytime you come on here, it turns into this. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm! There might be a reason for this.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by MWM
Chip is such a troublemaker here on RedsZone. He's always starting fights and just isn't a very likeable guy. I just can't stand him. :evilgrin:

Hate is such a strong word and such a heavy emotion -- that is not accurate to describe someone you don't know other than exchanging ideas on the Internet.

remdog
09-10-2003, 11:43 AM
I was the one that made the reference to Richard Hand. It was ment tongue-in-cheek but, unfortunately, I got my reference wrong. Chip simply corrected that.

It was a reference to another time on this board and it was ment in fun. Geez! :rolleyes:

Rem

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by MWM
Hey Neil, if you hate it here so much, I've got a good solution for you. LEAVE!

Have you noticed that almost everytime you come on here, it turns into this. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm! There might be a reason for this.

Yeah -- I have noticed that my opinions seem to bring out some real raw emotion from some folks -- and then some even use words like "hate" and tell me to "leave" -- is that what this forum is all about? Is it only for people who agree with each other???

If that is the case, it isn't the place for me -- or allot of others who want to discuss Reds baseball and their opinions of it without being told that we are hated and ought to just leave.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by remdog
I was the one that made the reference to Richard Hand. It was ment tongue-in-cheek but, unfortunately, I got my reference wrong. Chip simply corrected that.

It was a reference to another time on this board and it was ment in fun. Geez! :rolleyes:

Rem

So were some of my replies -- but then some other folsk started showing their "dark side"....and words like "hate" and ideas like, if you disagree with us you should "leave" started flying. No wonder that some folks see the whole community of Cincinnati as close-minded, hard-headedness that has no tolerance for differences.:thumbdn:

I started talking about why I thought it made sense to bring back Roberto Petagine and the thread has tuerned into their non-sense.

MWM
09-10-2003, 11:50 AM
I think you're right Neil. Everyone always agrees on RedsZone. That's why I like it so much. No one has ever disagreed with me or I have never disagreed with anyone else.

It's a wonderful place where we sit around eating peaches, building bridges, and singing Kumbaya while always agreeing.

BTW, I never asked you to leave, I merely suggested that if you are somiserable here, maybe you shouldn't come back. For your sake.

Chip R
09-10-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
Chip: Where have I made that statement ???

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15042

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=204050#post204050

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=212227#post212227

Must be the NyQuil, right, NEIL? :lol:

TeamDunn
09-10-2003, 12:20 PM
If nothing else he provides wonderful comic relief on hump day.

I love these kinds of threads! :D

gm
09-10-2003, 12:31 PM
"The Listserv is anything BUT a "select" group of Reds fans"

Based on your description of Mr. Lack, I would say my impression of the listserv was correct: a small group of Red's fans who share specific opinions about the ballclub and who (in affect) "select" who will remain a member of their inner circle.

Jim Bowden is gone (much rejoicing, but no more "what if" questions, please) Roberto Petagine is in Japan and isn't likely to become a Red, again. That's why Chip is recommending that you join us in the present and discuss the plausible future of the Cincy franchise (BTW, careful with that NyQuil, I know from experience it can take you places that will be difficult to return from)

westofyou
09-10-2003, 12:36 PM
(BTW, careful with that NyQuil, I know from experience it can take you places that will be difficult to return from)

Where?

Beaverton?

gm
09-10-2003, 12:54 PM
A certain hospital that used to be located in Wilsonville

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by MWM
I think you're right Neil. Everyone always agrees on RedsZone. That's why I like it so much. No one has ever disagreed with me or I have never disagreed with anyone else.

It's a wonderful place where we sit around eating peaches, building bridges, and singing Kumbaya while always agreeing.

BTW, I never asked you to leave, I merely suggested that if you are somiserable here, maybe you shouldn't come back. For your sake.

I don't think you would recognize "miserable" unless you looked in the mirror and could focus on something more than the tongue firmly implanted in your fat cheek.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by gm
[B]"The Listserv is anything BUT a "select" group of Reds fans"

Based on your description of Mr. Lack, I would say my impression of the listserv was correct: a small group of Red's fans who share specific opinions about the ballclub and who (in affect) "select" who will remain a member of their inner circle.

Jim Bowden is gone (much rejoicing, but no more "what if" questions, please) Roberto Petagine is in Japan and isn't likely to become a Red, again. [B]

You got your read absolutely correct about the Reds Listserv. I just hope the same thing doesn't apply here because it seems like there is a very small similar faction here.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by gm
Jim Bowden is gone (much rejoicing, but no more "what if" questions, please) Roberto Petagine is in Japan and isn't likely to become a Red, again. That's why Chip is recommending that you join us in the present and discuss the plausible future of the Cincy franchise (BTW, careful with that NyQuil, I know from experience it can take you places that will be difficult to return from)

Chip (and you) have missed the point that I was proposing this in the present -- then everything was lost in a hazy drift of sabre-fog coming from the malcontent section of the arena.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by gm
BTW, careful with that NyQuil, I know from experience it can take you places that will be difficult to return from)

So are you saying that Jim Bowden had the whole organization hooked on NyQuil??? When you think about it -- it makes sense.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Chip R
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15042

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=204050#post204050

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=212227#post212227

Must be the NyQuil, right, NEIL? :lol:

I just wanted to see the context towards which I had attached that phrase. Thanks for taking an important part of what is most people's day to research hundreds of posts to find where I made the kind of suggestion that you -- more than most human beings walking around on the planet -- should take heed.

Shouldn't you be moderating or something.

Chip R
09-10-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
I just wanted to see the context towards which I had attached that phrase. Thanks for taking an important part of what is most people's day to research hundreds of posts to find where I made the kind of suggestion that you -- more than most human beings walking around on the planet -- should take heed.

Shouldn't you be moderating or something. Yep. The Search feature is a wonderful thing. It brought up 25 of your most recent posts and it took me 5 minutes to find those 3. The context you used in your posts was the exact same context I used when I told you to "build a bridge". Now take your NyQuil and go back to sleep. :zzz:

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Chip R
Yep. The Search feature is a wonderful thing. It brought up 25 of your most recent posts and it took me 5 minutes to find those 3. The context you used in your posts was the exact same context I used when I told you to "build a bridge". Now take your NyQuil and go back to sleep. :zzz:

As Martin Luther King once so eloquently stated, I had a dream last night. My dream centered around a moderator named Chip who was asked to no longer moderate his previously assigned area. When asked why this was happening he received a written report that simply stated, "Inflated ego has blinded him to his own stupidity."

I woke up with a great smile -- feeling much better and totally rested and ready to face the troubles of my day.

Now were you saying anything important there Chippy????

Chip R
09-10-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
As Martin Luther King once so eloquently stated, I had a dream last night. My dream centered around a moderator named Chip who was asked to no longer moderate his previously assigned area. When asked why this was happening he received a written report that simply stated, "Inflated ego has blinded him to his own stupidity."

I woke up with a great smile -- feeling much better and totally rested and ready to face the troubles of my day.

Now were you saying anything important there Chippy???? Too bad for you it was just a dream. :D

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Chip R
Too bad for you it was just a dream. :D

Things that start out as dreams -- oftentimes become reality. Anything the mind can conceive and believe -- it can achieve.

When Jim Bowden was named GM of the Year after the 1999 season, I stated that he would be exposed as a phoney and a fraud and be fired for it. It took a few more seasons but it became a reality.

It might not take as long for that samething to happen to you Chipster.

Chip R
09-10-2003, 07:23 PM
Build a bridge, NEIL. :lol:

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Chip R
Build a bridge, NEIL. :lol:

Only after you eat a peach.

gm
09-10-2003, 08:26 PM
"I just hope the same thing doesn't apply here"

Nah. the mods here will give you a pretty long leash. If you get off'ed it's likely because you really wanted to get run. Keep your sense of humor, avoid personal attacks and (whatever you do) if the NyQuil starts to give you a buzz that keeps you awake all night, STOP taking it

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by gm
"I just hope the same thing doesn't apply here"

Nah. the mods here will give you a pretty long leash. If you get off'ed it's likely because you really wanted to get run. Keep your sense of humor, avoid personal attacks and (whatever you do) if the NyQuil starts to give you a buzz that keeps you awake all night, STOP taking it

The NyQuil is nothing compared to all this cocaine I am doing....:eek:
























I am just kidding:evilgrin:

SteelSD
09-10-2003, 09:52 PM
2003 Player Salaries:

C -- Jason LaRue (1.25M)
1B -- Paul Konerko (6.5M)
2B -- Brett Boone (8.0M)
SS -- Pokey Reese (5.0M- as he would have never been released)
3B -- Scott Rolen (7.7M)
LF -- Roberto Petagine (5M minimum- to get him away from his 6M in Japan)
CF -- Junior Griffey (10M- estimated value factoring in inflationary devalued deferred funds)
RF -- Austin Kearns (0.35M)

P -- Mark Prior (Not gonna factor him in the team as we did not draft low enough to acquire him. Flight of fancy.)
P -- Livan Hernandez (3.8M)
P -- Brandon Claussen (0.35M)
P -- Paul Wilson (0.5M)
P -- Jose Acevedo (0.35M)
P -- Ryan Wagner (0.35M)
P -- Rob Nen (8.75M- Out for Season. Plays for San Fran BTW)
P -- John Reidling (0.35M)
P -- Aaron Harang (0.35M)
P -- Danny Graves (5.0M)
P -- Chris Reitsma (0.35K)

+2 ML Minimum salaries to replace Prior (who we could never have had) and Nen (Out for the season). Then add 5M minimum for the 6 bench players not listed.

Total Salaries: 68.95 Million Dollars in salary alone, not counting benefits and a 75 Million Dollar salary staring us in the face in 2004.

No cost certainty and coupled with highly paid underperforming/unproven players (Konerko, Reese, Graves, Petagine), unproven youngsters (Claussen, Acevedo, Harang), or injured players (Nen, Claussen not back from TJ surgery).

Way to go, Neil. You just produced a team capable of around 70-75 wins and you did it by spending almost 70 Million dollars. If hindsight is 20/20, Neil just put up a great case for needing glasses. Ugh.

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD
2003 Player Salaries:

C -- Jason LaRue (1.25M)
1B -- Paul Konerko (6.5M)
2B -- Brett Boone (8.0M)
SS -- Pokey Reese (5.0M- as he would have never been released)
3B -- Scott Rolen (7.7M)
LF -- Roberto Petagine (5M minimum- to get him away from his 6M in Japan)
CF -- Junior Griffey (10M- estimated value factoring in inflationary devalued deferred funds)
RF -- Austin Kearns (0.35M)

P -- Mark Prior (Not gonna factor him in the team as we did not draft low enough to acquire him. Flight of fancy.)
P -- Livan Hernandez (3.8M)
P -- Brandon Claussen (0.35M)
P -- Paul Wilson (0.5M)
P -- Jose Acevedo (0.35M)
P -- Ryan Wagner (0.35M)
P -- Rob Nen (8.75M- Out for Season. Plays for San Fran BTW)
P -- John Reidling (0.35M)
P -- Aaron Harang (0.35M)
P -- Danny Graves (5.0M)
P -- Chris Reitsma (0.35K)

+2 ML Minimum salaries to replace Prior (who we could never have had) and Nen (Out for the season). Then add 5M minimum for the 6 bench players not listed.

Total Salaries: 68.95 Million Dollars in salary alone, not counting benefits and a 75 Million Dollar salary staring us in the face in 2004.

No cost certainty and coupled with highly paid underperforming/unproven players (Konerko, Reese, Graves, Petagine), unproven youngsters (Claussen, Acevedo, Harang), or injured players (Nen, Claussen not back from TJ surgery).

Way to go, Neil. You just produced a team capable of around 70-75 wins and you did it by spending almost 70 Million dollars. If hindsight is 20/20, Neil just put up a great case for needing glasses. Ugh.

There are only a handful of people walking around on the planet who would read so much inaccurate information into a post in an attempt to put thir own "spin" on it -- and SteelSD -- I believe that you smell like one of them.

Are you back to drinking AGAIN?

:beerme:

You obviously don't follow the game too closely -- or even this thread. As was previously reported Roberto Petagine had indicated a desire to get back to the states and would've signed for $3 -- so you're wrong there (number one).

Scott Rolen is from southern Indiana (Jasper, Indiana) and had a preference to play in Cincinnati and would've gone there for less money -- so you are wrong again (number two).

Reese IMO would only be acquired if part of the contract was paid for by the other club -- som your wrong again (number three)

Junior's deferred money is just that -- and it cannot be deferred and then brought forth and estimated as devalued -- and call this the current season's payroll. You can do it but to do so would make you, yes -- wrong again (number four)

I screwed up by saying Nen, I meant Rod Beck, and the reference to San Diego should've clued any knowledagble fan of that -- but I don't suspect you could be categorized as that which is why you didn't catch it. But it is acknowledgd as my mistake (number one for me).

Why would I put Prior in this hypothetical rotation as indicative of Bowden possibly getting one draft pick right -- and you disallow it. Hold on, I have to laugh a bit at that logic....:lol:

OK, well, flight of fancy or not, I'm keeping Prior in there and it is my hypothetical lineup so that would make you wrong again (number five).

When one does put together a hypothetical lineup there would be no cost certainty and would contain some underperforming/unproven players (Konerko, Reese, Graves, Petagine), unproven youngsters (Claussen, Acevedo, Harang), or injured players (Claussen not back from TJ surgery). Instead of being critical of what someone else hypothesizes, why not put your energy into saying something meaningful of your own? To do otherwise would ake you -- yes -- wrong again (number six).

Now if you feel a lineup that includes Bret Boone, Austin Kearns, Junior Griffey, Scott Rolen and Paul Konerko is not formidable -- well I would be obliged to respect your opnion -- but would also see you as WRONG AGAIN (number seven)

If you think a rotation anchored with Prior and Livan Hernandez and having Claussen as your number three guy -- with Wilson at four and Acevedo at five is not a vast improvement, well you know what you'd be -- wrong wrong wrong (number eight)

If you think the relief corp of Beck and Wagner as closers, with Graves, Reidling, Reistma and Harang is not deep and has vastly more capabilities than what we have now -- (number ten -- is what you'd be).

NEILYNG
09-10-2003, 10:35 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NEILYNG
[B]There are only a handful of people walking around on the planet who would read so much inaccurate information into a post in an attempt to put thir own "spin" on it -- and SteelSD -- I believe that you smell like one of them.

Are you back to drinking AGAIN?

Now if you feel a lineup that includes Bret Boone, Austin Kearns, Junior Griffey, Scott Rolen and Paul Konerko is not formidable -- well I would be obliged to respect your opnion -- but would also see you as WRONG AGAIN (number seven) [QUOTE]

Not to mention including the real anchor of a lineup like this Roberto Petagine.

Are you back to drinking again SteelSD? :al_cohol:

I am playing in the band:

:jump: :mooner: :rock_band :rockon: :eek2: :yipee: :smokin:

MWM
09-10-2003, 10:39 PM
Neil Young thinking he's more knowledgable than Steel. Now that's funny.

BTW, Mark Prior was drafted second. The Reds couldn't have drafted him even if they wanted.

And I highly doubt Rolen would have signed in Cincy for less than St. Louis. He never gave any indication as such. Plus, he was a FA at the end of the year. If he wanted to sign with Cincy at a significant discount, he would have given some indication that's what he wanted.

Ravenlord
09-10-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
[B]There are only a handful of people walking around on the planet who would read so much inaccurate information into a post in an attempt to put thir own "spin" on it -- and SteelSD -- I believe that you smell like one of them.

Are you back to drinking AGAIN?

:beerme:

You obviously don't follow the game too closely -- or even this thread. As was previously reported Roberto Petagine had indicated a desire to get back to the states and would've signed for $3 -- so you're wrong there (number one). given. so the bench is mostly payed for.


Scott Rolen is from southern Indiana (Jasper, Indiana) and had a preference to play in Cincinnati and would've gone there for less money -- so you are wrong again (number two).he probably would, but it probably wouldn't be enough to matter. reduced to $7.3 mil at best.


Reese IMO would only be acquired if part of the contract was paid for by the other club -- som your wrong again (number three)you already stated that if Reese was never released. the Reds would be paying the whole contract. and you must be clairvoyent to say that Reese's contract would be co-payed.


Junior's deferred money is just that -- and it cannot be deferred and then brought forth and estimated as devalued -- and call this the current season's payroll. You can do it but to do so would make you, yes -- wrong again (number four)want to bet? run a search for "Griffey's Contract" or "Deffered Money," this has been discussed in length. and yes, deffered money counts very much.


I screwed up by saying Nen, I meant Rod Beck, and the reference to San Diego should've clued any knowledagble fan of that -- but I don't suspect you could be categorized as that which is why you didn't catch it. But it is acknowledgd as my mistake (number one for me). actually we all caught it. we talked about it during chat. we still had Scott Williamson when the Padres got him, so there was no point in getting a re-tread closer at the time. especially one who had been struggling to hit 80 earlier on.


Why would I put Prior in this hypothetical rotation as indicative of Bowden possibly getting one draft pick right -- and you disallow it. Hold on, I have to laugh a bit at that logic....:lol:wouldn't matter, the year Prior was drafted, the Cubs got to pick about 8 rounds ahead of the Reds. Bowden could have planned on drafting him, didn't matter, he wound't have been there.

[quoite]OK, well, flight of fancy or not, I'm keeping Prior in there and it is my hypothetical lineup so that would make you wrong again (number five).[/quote] it's an impossible hypothetical.


When one does put together a hypothetical lineup there would be no cost certainty and would contain some underperforming/unproven players (Konerko, Reese, Graves, Petagine), unproven youngsters (Claussen, Acevedo, Harang), or injured players (Claussen not back from TJ surgery). Instead of being critical of what someone else hypothesizes, why not put your energy into saying something meaningful of your own? To do otherwise would ake you -- yes -- wrong again (number six).[/qoute] do a search for a thread by Krust called: "How much do the Reds need to Retool?" or something like that, and read Steel's response. and in a hypothetical line up, you can estimate price tags accurately. unless of course, it's Bowden writing the contract.;)


Now if you feel a lineup that includes Bret Boone, Austin Kearns, Junior Griffey, Scott Rolen and Paul Konerko is not formidable -- well I would be obliged to respect your opnion -- but would also see you as WRONG AGAIN (number seven) for all you know, if Boone doesn't go to Seattle, he stays a very poor hitter. also, there is no way you could fit that group of people into a $50,000,000 payroll.


If you think a rotation anchored with Prior and Livan Hernandez and having Claussen as your number three guy -- with Wilson at four and Acevedo at five is not a vast improvement, well you know what you'd be -- wrong wrong wrong (number eight) would be an improvement. except there's no way we could have drafted Prior (or Zito for that matter), Hernandez has been a trash pitcher until this year, and i think it's mostly because he's pitching in a pitcher's park and is playing for a contract. it would be an improvement, but an impossible one to achieve, especially at Hernandez' price.

[quoite]If you think the relief corp of Beck and Wagner as closers, with Graves, Reidling, Reistma and Harang is not deep and has vastly more capabilities than what we have now -- (number ten -- is what you'd be). again, Beck is in San Diego, because WIlliamson was in Cincinati. Wagner would have to be shut down this year anyway because of college innings, and there's no way i make Wagner a closer this early on...too much pressure too soon. and this is basically what you said earlier when discussing Beck. your stretching like JimBo's leather pants to get to 10.

SteelSD
09-10-2003, 11:16 PM
Wow. Neil's trying to talk baseball. That's so cute!


You obviously don't follow the game too closely -- or even this thread. As was previously reported Roberto Petagine had indicated a desire to get back to the states and would've signed for $3 -- so you're wrong there (number one).

I assume that's 3 Million and not 3 dollars. The problem is that Petagine may have wanted 3M BEFORE he was given a 2-year/12M deal, but he'd need significant enticement to leave 6 Million dollars behind. I'm not even convinced that 5 Million is significant enticement being that he's 32 years old and has only a few paydays left.


Scott Rolen is from southern Indiana (Jasper, Indiana) and had a preference to play in Cincinnati and would've gone there for less money -- so you are wrong again (number two).

Really? Well, being that he signed fairly quickly with St. Louis rather than going to Free Agency and signing with the Reds, you have nothing to back that up. If Rolen did want to come to Cinci and play for less than his current salary, then he would have waited until after last season and done so. He didn't. Sorry.


Reese IMO would only be acquired if part of the contract was paid for by the other club -- som your wrong again (number three)

Why would the Reds trade for Reese in the first place after swapping his worthless butt for Gabe White? No smart team trades for a player worth negative runs, so your "acquisition" of Reese is a ridiculously bad move in the first place- especially considering that, in your scenario, another team would be willing to eat salary to get rid of him. Worthless players do not a good team make. Learn it. Love it. Live it.


Junior's deferred money is just that -- and it cannot be deferred and then brought forth and estimated as devalued -- and call this the current season's payroll. You can do it but to do so would make you, yes -- wrong again (number four)

It can't? John Allen is storing Griffey's deferred money away and counting it against team payroll- meaning that, according to him, Ken Griffey Junior is making 12.5 Million Dollars this year. The money Griffey is set to receive at the end of his contract is certainly not only devalued by inflation, but it's devalued by the Reds- who are earning float income on the monies they're storing away RIGHT NOW.

Given current interest rates on those earnings, the Reds stand to make a few million dollars on those funds BEFORE they ever disburse a dollar to Griffey. Average that out over the course of the contract, including deferred money, and you arrive at a current allocation of around 10M to have Ken Griffey Junior on the club. It's not my fault that you can't do the math on that.


I screwed up by saying Nen, I meant Rod Beck, and the reference to San Diego should've clued any knowledagble fan of that -- but I don't suspect you could be categorized as that which is why you didn't catch it. But it is acknowledgd as my mistake (number one for me).

Actually, "any knowledgeable fan" understand the difference between "Robb Nen" and "Rod Beck". But considering that the whole of your "analysis" is complete hindsight, it doesn't surprise me that you'd sign a guy who had a near 6.00 ERA last year. Unfortunately, that's just the kind of "retread" you claim to hate because Jim Bowden signed them. Try to be a bit more consistent next time.


Why would I put Prior in this hypothetical rotation as indicative of Bowden possibly getting one draft pick right -- and you disallow it. Hold on, I have to laugh a bit at that logic....

You can't put Prior in the rotation as the Reds NEVER EVER had the chance to draft Mark Prior. Using your retarded logic, I could post a "what-if" linup including Alex Rodriguez at SS- a player who we also never had the opportunity to select.


OK, well, flight of fancy or not, I'm keeping Prior in there and it is my hypothetical lineup so that would make you wrong again (number five).

So you including a player we never had the chance to acquire would make me "wrong"???? That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


When one does put together a hypothetical lineup there would be no cost certainty and would contain some underperforming/unproven players (Konerko, Reese, Graves, Petagine), unproven youngsters (Claussen, Acevedo, Harang), or injured players (Claussen not back from TJ surgery). Instead of being critical of what someone else hypothesizes, why not put your energy into saying something meaningful of your own? To do otherwise would ake you -- yes -- wrong again (number six).

Cost certainty is necessary for a small market team. I'm not sure why you don't understand this. Your approach is an extreme dice roll- and it's not even a GOOD dice roll considering the circumstances surrounding your "hindsight" players. Your response basically says that we could have acquired/kept every single player you want. The problem with that? The players you want just aren't very good. Sorry, kid.


Now if you feel a lineup that includes Bret Boone, Austin Kearns, Junior Griffey, Scott Rolen and Paul Konerko is not formidable -- well I would be obliged to respect your opnion -- but would also see you as WRONG AGAIN (number seven)

I've actually been a proponent of acquiring Scott Rolen, so that's not a point of contention. And we already HAVE Austin Kearns and Griffey, so your point is moot there (as most of your points are in the three times you've actually posted about baseball).

That leaves Konerko, who is almost as bad a value as Casey is this year and he's a player who is almost always significantly overrated even when he does produce. As Boston has shown with David Ortiz, one can do much better at 1B than spending 6+ Million Dollars on either Konerko or Casey.


If you think a rotation anchored with Prior and Livan Hernandez and having Claussen as your number three guy -- with Wilson at four and Acevedo at five is not a vast improvement, well you know what you'd be -- wrong wrong wrong (number eight)

Again...the Reds could not have aquired Mark Prior. No way no how. Including him is, again, like saying that we'd be better off with a young Alex Rodriguez. Duh. Unfortunately, we had no shot at either player. Build a bridge and get over it.


If you think the relief corp of Beck and Wagner as closers, with Graves, Reidling, Reistma and Harang is not deep and has vastly more capabilities than what we have now -- (number ten -- is what you'd be).

Are you kidding?? With the state of the pen AT THIS VERY MOMENT, we have Graves, Reidling, and Reitsma there. We'll have Wagner (a Jim Bowden draftee BTW- that must hurt) in 2004. So basically, you're using your immaculate hindsight to project that Robb Nen..errr Rob Beck now...would have helped the pen. Wow. Instead, why not claim that you knew all about Esteban Loaiza and just be done with it?

Seriously, if you're going to look for hindsight values- including players we couldn't have possibly acquired- why not look at GOOD players instead of the chaff you're throwing out there??

I mean, the guys you're suggesting could barely eat a peach. And that seems to be something important you you.
:lol:

NKyRedMachine
09-11-2003, 05:29 AM
I remember being on the AOL board a few years back, and some poster going on and on about Roberto Petagine non stop, saying he was the savior of the franchise, but Boy Blunder Bowden had deposed him to Japan. And when I gave a dissenting view (not on Petagine, but on the obsession), the only comeback that I received was about UK and FedEx (actually, it was Emery, but I guess he is too busy gawking at his Petagine picture framed in his living room)

Good to see the more things change (like the location of the posts), the more they stay the same (Neil championing the cause of the immortal Roberto Petagine).

NEILYNG
09-11-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by NKyRedMachine
I remember being on the AOL board a few years back, and some poster going on and on about Roberto Petagine non stop, saying he was the savior of the franchise, but Boy Blunder Bowden had deposed him to Japan. And when I gave a dissenting view (not on Petagine, but on the obsession), the only comeback that I received was about UK and FedEx (actually, it was Emery, but I guess he is too busy gawking at his Petagine picture framed in his living room)

Good to see the more things change (like the location of the posts), the more they stay the same (Neil championing the cause of the immortal Roberto Petagine).

I don't recall discussing the United Kingdom (UK) with anyone from Kentucky. As for the FedEx and/or Emery thing -- if you are bringing up innocuous statements made years ago -- I think it's time you tried building a bridge and getting over it.

:lol:

TeamCasey
09-11-2003, 10:53 AM
OMG! I just tuned into this thread for the first time.

DEJA VU or what!?

Do you think the real Neil Young believes in reincarnation?

NEILYNG
09-11-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by TeamCasey
OMG! I just tuned into this thread for the first time.

DEJA VU or what!?

Do you think the real Neil Young believes in reincarnation?

Reincarnation or deju vu. I didn't know anybody died.

If I had ever been here before I would probably know just what to do. Don't you?

cincinnati chili
09-11-2003, 02:21 PM
I don't really care for Neil's tone on this thread, needlessly going after Chip, Steel, etc.

But I think he's absolutely right about the Reds' failure to recognize what they had in Petagine. The Reds cannot afford to throw away free talent, and that's what they (and the Padres/Mets before them) had in Petagine. This guy could have been an all-star for us, even at first base, while making a very low salary.

I've talked to baseball executives about this guy, asking if he had any personal baggage, etc., keeping American teams from resigning him, and the answer was 'no.' He just happened to not hit well in his first major league 200 at-bats. He did hit well in his last 100 plate appearances or so (obp around .400), but MLB teams had already typed him as a major league flop.

They blew it. There are other guys like this, whom the Reds could acquire for very little. That's why they should hire me. Petagine is now out of reach. I'm glad he got his big pay day.

NEILYNG
09-11-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili
I don't really care for Neil's tone on this thread, needlessly going after Chip, Steel, etc.

But I think he's absolutely right about the Reds' failure to recognize what they had in Petagine. The Reds cannot afford to throw away free talent, and that's what they (and the Padres/Mets before them) had in Petagine. This guy could have been an all-star for us, even at first base, while making a very low salary.

I've talked to baseball executives about this guy, asking if he had any personal baggage, etc., keeping American teams from resigning him, and the answer was 'no.' He just happened to not hit well in his first major league 200 at-bats. He did hit well in his last 100 plate appearances or so (obp around .400), but MLB teams had already typed him as a major league flop.

They blew it. There are other guys like this, whom the Reds could acquire for very little. That's why they should hire me. Petagine is now out of reach. I'm glad he got his big pay day.

I don;t know how someone can detect any "tone" by reading another's e-mail/posts. I suppose one could read some "tone" into an e-mail/post but to do that would be wrong.

The most of your post was correct though in getting to my point -- which always was that I felt the Reds blew it with Petagine. It is compounded by the awful deal that Bowden then gave Casey.

Small market teams have to get some of the clls like this right -- instead of always getting them wrong.

SYCMiniBus
09-11-2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
I don;t know how someone can detect any "tone" by reading another's e-mail/posts. I suppose one could read some "tone" into an e-mail/post but to do that would be wrong.

The most of your post was correct though in getting to my point -- which always was that I felt the Reds blew it with Petagine. It is compounded by the awful deal that Bowden then gave Casey.

Small market teams have to get some of the clls like this right -- instead of always getting them wrong.

Who is to say Petagine would hit in the majors he never did. He was putting up Brandon Larson esq numbers in AAA and in the majors. He couldn't beat out Eduardo Perez in spring training. The Casey deal is irrelavent in regards to Petagine. Casey proved himself at the MLB level and Petagine didn't. That is why he not Petagine got the contract. Whether it was a bad deal or not that is what happened. And the Reds dont always get "theese" calls wrong. See Pokey Reese among others. You hate Bowden you hate Casey now get your boxers out of bunch, put the hindsight away and get with the present. We all know your feelings and to be honest most of us do not care.

NEILYNG
09-11-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by SYCMiniBus
You hate Bowden you hate Casey now get your boxers out of bunch, put the hindsight away and get with the present. We all know your feelings and to be honest most of us do not care.

Do you run the Chelsea Drug Store because you sure know how to hand out "abuse"?

Like someone else sdai, this isn't RedsZone Select -- where you can limit who says what about opinions you only are in agreement with. If you want to belong to the NaziRedsArea go sign up for Bill Lack's ListServ. From what you've shown -- you'd feel right at home almost immediately.

cincinnati chili
09-11-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by SYCMiniBus
Who is to say Petagine would hit in the majors

Me. And a lot of other people. The Japanese Leagues are superior to Triple A. He's OPS'ing over 1000 in Japan year after year with a good walk rate. Larson has never had a good walk rate. Worst case scenario, Petagine would have hit like Matsui. But it's more likely he would have hit the way Nick Johnson hit this year.

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili
Me. And a lot of other people. The Japanese Leagues are superior to Triple A. He's OPS'ing over 1000 in Japan year after year with a good walk rate. Larson has never had a good walk rate. Worst case scenario, Petagine would have hit like Matsui. But it's more likely he would have hit the way Nick Johnson hit this year.

Thanks -- but realize your opinion is not welcome unless it "fits" some other persons preset agenda. At least that is the way they like to portray it.

I agree that Petagine never was given an appropriate shot in the MLB. Mart Brenneman feels the same way. Many people do. I also agree that his stats in Japan are actually superior to anyone who is currently there or has played the recently -- over a three or four year period.

Bill James -- who the sabre-geeks around here love to quote when what he says supposedly validates their viewpoints -- has written numerous commentaries on how the Japan Leagues are like somewhere between AAA and the Majors. He projects that the stats in Japan are about 3/4 of what the same player would do in MLB. These guys know he's written that -- yet are acting deaf, dumb and blind to it now.

I don't feel he is too old to be coming back here to play. Some guys actually get better in their thirties -- see Bonds, Barry.

I also do know -- from very reliable sources -- he would come here for less money than he is getting over there. He wants the chance to prove he can play in the ML and is confident enough in his own abilities to come over here for less -- in the short run -- to make more in the long run.

Anyway, you are a good guy -- I appreciate getting a normal message now and then too.

SYCMiniBus
09-12-2003, 01:19 AM
I am not saying Petagine would or wouldn't hit in the majors. I have no way of knowing. The Japan equastion that James put together holds true sometimes and others it doesn't. So Taguchi and Shinjo have never done much here other then ride Ichiro's coat tails. All I was trying to say was that Petagine may never have hit major league pitchers who knows. Go figure the Japaneese Leagues are about AAAA the same label Petagine was given. Maybe we should send Larson over there and see what he can do. Petagine may have put up All-Star numbers if given a chance but 30 other teams had a chance to claim him, and quite honestly I am not going to worry about the minor leaguer who got away in '98 when it is '03 and heading into the '04 season. Too much water under that bridge.

wheels
09-12-2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
Thanks -- but realize your opinion is not welcome unless it "fits" some other persons preset agenda. At least that is the way they like to portray it.

I agree that Petagine never was given an appropriate shot in the MLB. Mart Brenneman feels the same way. Many people do. I also agree that his stats in Japan are actually superior to anyone who is currently there or has played the recently -- over a three or four year period.

Bill James -- who the sabre-geeks around here love to quote when what he says supposedly validates their viewpoints -- has written numerous commentaries on how the Japan Leagues are like somewhere between AAA and the Majors. He projects that the stats in Japan are about 3/4 of what the same player would do in MLB. These guys know he's written that -- yet are acting deaf, dumb and blind to it now.

I don't feel he is too old to be coming back here to play. Some guys actually get better in their thirties -- see Bonds, Barry.

I also do know -- from very reliable sources -- he would come here for less money than he is getting over there. He wants the chance to prove he can play in the ML and is confident enough in his own abilities to come over here for less -- in the short run -- to make more in the long run.

Anyway, you are a good guy -- I appreciate getting a normal message now and then too.


"pound! Pound! Pound!"

almost there.............


last nail "pound!"

whew! Got that bridge built....

walking over....now.

Whew! I made it.


I'm over the bridge.

Where's that peach tree?

919191
09-12-2003, 02:20 AM
Speaking of Richard Hand, he posts here, if anyone is interested.:rolleyes:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=30

NKyRedMachine
09-12-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
I don't recall discussing the United Kingdom (UK) with anyone from Kentucky. As for the FedEx and/or Emery thing -- if you are bringing up innocuous statements made years ago -- I think it's time you tried building a bridge and getting over it.

:lol:

Funny....you're the one pining for Roberto Petagine for years and years..still whining about his banishment to the Japanese league, and you are talking to me about "building a bridge and getting over it?" You're too damned funny, but the thing is, you dont even realize it.

Oh...we've certainly gotten over it (to the tune of national titles, FF appearances, etc, etc), much better than your obsession over the Japanese castoff Roberto Petagine.

:rolleyes:

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by NKyRedMachine
Funny....you're the one pining for Roberto Petagine for years and years..still whining about his banishment to the Japanese league, and you are talking to me about "building a bridge and getting over it?" You're too damned funny, but the thing is, you dont even realize it.

Oh...we've certainly gotten over it (to the tune of national titles, FF appearances, etc, etc), much better than your obsession over the Japanese castoff Roberto Petagine.

:rolleyes:

I would hope that the United Kingdom could capture a national title now and then.

What has the Kentucky football team ever done?

The Emery package is yet another black mark on the scandalous school in Lexington. What do you enjoy the most about being a Kentucky fan -- the racism? the cheating? the probationary years? how you can't keep good coaches like Rick Pitino? is it the general dirty cheating that goes on typically in the lexington community -- read anything about the history of the horse breeding business done there?

You've got nothing to be proud of -- just things to be ashamed of. Even these National Titles are tainted by the lies, the cheating and the racism.

cincinnati chili
09-12-2003, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by SYCMiniBus
I am not saying Petagine would or wouldn't hit in the majors. I have no way of knowing. The Japan equastion that James put together holds true sometimes and others it doesn't. So Taguchi and Shinjo have never done much here other then ride Ichiro's coat tails.

You're right, we can't know. But since a lot of people don't know this I feel obliged to point out that Shinjo didn't hit well in Japan either.

Career through 2000.
Average - .249
OBP - .307
SLG - .422

Fil3232
09-12-2003, 03:25 AM
This has been a good fight between Neil and the opposition. (steel, chip r, etc.). Just wondering...is it 10 rounds, 12 rounds? Does Neil have to answer steel's last post? If he doesn't, is it a TKO (statistically speaking) for steel? Just a couple of questions after reading this thread.

P.S. Petagine, although a good hitter in Japan, will never play for the Reds again (maybe a good thing, mayber not). I'll take a healthy Jr., Kearns, Dunn (bench of Pena and Stenson) anyway.

Fil3232
09-12-2003, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
I would hope that the United Kingdom could capture a national title now and then.

What has the Kentucky football team ever done?

The Emery package is yet another black mark on the scandalous school in Lexington. What do you enjoy the most about being a Kentucky fan -- the racism? the cheating? the probationary years? how you can't keep good coaches like Rick Pitino? is it the general dirty cheating that goes on typically in the lexington community -- read anything about the history of the horse breeding business done there?

You've got nothing to be proud of -- just things to be ashamed of. Even these National Titles are tainted by the lies, the cheating and the racism.

Every single program in major college athletics is dirty in one way or another...this is moot in today's times.

This is a good time to plug my favorite school...Go Redhawks...MAC Champions 2003, 2004...Ben Roethlisberger Heisman 2004

Fil3232
09-12-2003, 03:31 AM
One last thing...

This is purely off the top of my head---what were Tuffy Rhodes' numbers in Japan? Didn't he tie/break Oh's HR record? Is there any difference between Petagine and Rhodes? Just curious.

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by Fil3232
This has been a good fight between Neil and the opposition. (steel, chip r, etc.). Just wondering...is it 10 rounds, 12 rounds? Does Neil have to answer steel's last post? If he doesn't, is it a TKO (statistically speaking) for steel? Just a couple of questions after reading this thread.

P.S. Petagine, although a good hitter in Japan, will never play for the Reds again (maybe a good thing, mayber not). I'll take a healthy Jr., Kearns, Dunn (bench of Pena and Stenson) anyway.

I don't respond to posts with such harassment and is clearly a personal attack. I dealt with that in the appropriate manner and didn't make my actions public.

I'm still talking about what might have been with Roberto Petagine on board instead of Casey.

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Fil3232
Every single program in major college athletics is dirty in one way or another...this is moot in today's times.

This is a good time to plug my favorite school...Go Redhawks...MAC Champions 2003, 2004...Ben Roethlisberger Heisman 2004

No offense, I know the MAC Conference -- but who are the Redhawks??? I'm from Illinois and their noteriety doesn't stretch out this far.

cincinnati chili
09-12-2003, 03:43 AM
Tuffy has a .380 career on base percentage over there, Petagine has a .451 career on base percentage.

I think Tuffy would be better in the U.S. now than when he left, but I don't think he'd be dominant year after year.

Here are his Japanese numbers. He definitely had some good years:

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=905&Year=2003

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by Fil3232
One last thing...

This is purely off the top of my head---what were Tuffy Rhodes' numbers in Japan? Didn't he tie/break Oh's HR record? Is there any difference between Petagine and Rhodes? Just curious.

Tuffy Rhodes might be another good example.

You see, what no one can say for sure is that some of these guys might just mature into good ballplayers later in their career. It can and does happen. I mentioned Barry Bonds as being someone who has dramatically picked things up statistically in the later years of his career.

Why is it so difficult for some of the folks around here to grasp that players like Roberto Petagine or Tuffy Rhodes just might be like that. They just never got their shot to do it in the Bigs -- that's all.

I think this is absolutely as plausible as it is to assme that a guy like Aaron Harang is going to develop into a good number three starter -- or not. We just don't know.

But to have an area like this to discuss this and toss it back and forth is really cool. Yeah, a couple of guys get a little uptight and try to pop off -- but you know , they need to be building some bridges for themselves to get over.

It's all good -- really.

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili
Tuffy has a .380 career on base percentage over there, Petagine has a .451 career on base percentage.

I think Tuffy would be better in the U.S. now than when he left, but I don't think he'd be dominant year after year.

Here are his Japanese numbers. He definitely had some good years:

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=905&Year=2003

Plus -- obviously -- Roberto Petagine was with the Reds for a while. I think Tuffy was primarily with the Cubs.

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 03:53 AM
Why some guys got a shot in Cincinnati while others didn't is beyond me. I think it was a Bowden thing.

Paul Konerko was touted as a great power hitter that would hold down a spot in Cincy's roster for about a decade by Jim Bowden himself when he was acquired.

He got 55 plate appearances in the Big Leagues with Cincy before he was shipped to Indianapolis and then in the off-season to the White Sox for Mike Cameron.

Same thing with Petagine -- he was given just a brief trial and did actually fairly well with the abbreviated opportunity he did get -- and then he was sold to japan for $1,000,00 (what Juan Catsro is getting coincidently).

Casey on the other hand has had stretches that have lasted at least half of entire seasons, yet he was still getting run out there everyday. I got so sick of watching those weak grounders to second by Casey -- and yet he kept getting his ABs. It got almsot funny.

I've heard that Bowden definately played favorites. It was reported recently that Ryan Freel was NOT one of Bowden's favorites so he kept getting bumped around back and forth.

Does anyone have any of the links to those old Bowden articles from the Enquirer when some of those deals went down -- for Konerko and Petagine???

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by NKyRedMachine
I And when I gave a dissenting view (not on Petagine, but on the obsession), the only comeback that I received was about UK and FedEx (actually, it was Emery, but I guess he is too busy gawking at his Petagine picture framed in his living room)

Good to see the more things change (like the location of the posts), the more they stay the same (Neil championing the cause of the immortal Roberto Petagine).

After all is said and done -- you've said more than you've done. UK is known nationally for it's cheating and scandals. The Emery overnight pacjage was just one of many.

If you ever got out of your state -- you'd know this. None of it would be a surprise.

SteelSD
09-12-2003, 10:10 PM
Paul Konerko was touted as a great power hitter that would hold down a spot in Cincy's roster for about a decade by Jim Bowden himself when he was acquired.

He got 55 plate appearances in the Big Leagues with Cincy before he was shipped to Indianapolis and then in the off-season to the White Sox for Mike Cameron.

So your issue with Konerko is that he was dealt for a better all around player (Mike Cameron)???

Certainly, Konerko is a better option at 1B than the current version of Sean Casey, but Konerko has also been relatively overrated at the ML level. Let's take a look at the comparisons in 1999 and 2000:

Konerko:

1999- .863OPS
2000- .844OPS

Casey:

1999- .938OPS
2000- .902OPS

If you're going to try to tell anyone that that deal wasn't seen as a "win" after 2000, you are an insane man. And it wasn't like Casey wasn't projected to do that either- his Minor League OPS was a VERY impressive .949 (and remember- Konerko made a living in hitter-friendly Albuquerque). Only hindsight could possibly make that scenario (Casey/Cameron vs. Konerko) look bad. But that is where you live, Neil...

The short term advantage there in jettisoning Konerko and acquiring Cameron (undervalued to this day) was extreme with a .900+ OPS version of Sean Casey manning 1B. And no one- NO ONE- could have projected the extreme spiral in Casey's performance.


I've heard that Bowden definately played favorites. It was reported recently that Ryan Freel was NOT one of Bowden's favorites so he kept getting bumped around back and forth.

Do you have a link to that "recent report"? You must as it couldn't have been before 2003- Freel hadn't been with the Reds before that.

It couldn't have had anything to do with say...options...or...injuries. It must be that Bowden didn't like Ryan Freel? How in the world did Bowden know Ryan Freel long enough to like or dislike him???

Freel has the skill set of a decent bench option for the middle infield. That's great. Unfortunately, there's a lot more to running a Major League franchise than just calling up whomever you like, whenever you'd like to.

For the record, here are the Ryan Freel transactions:

04/19/03: Recalled Ryan Freel from AAA (replace Brandon Larson)
05/06/03: Optioned Freel to AAA (Larkin came off the DL)
05/22/03: Recalled Ryan Freel from AAA (Larkin on DL)
05/29/03: Placed Ryan Freel on 15-day DL
07/04/03: Activated Freel from DL and sent him to AAA (full roster)
07/28/03: Bob Boone and Jim Bowden Fired
07/31/03: Recalled Ryan Freel from AAA (Dempster on DL)
08/06/03: Optioned Freel to AAA (Larson back up)
08/20/03: Recalled Ryan Freel from AAA (Larson on DL 08/18)

Before Bowden was fired, Freel was called up twice- both times as a primary option to replace players lost to injury (Larkin) or poor performance (Larson). In fact, Ryan Freel was the first infielder recalled when the Reds needed a replacement- TWICE.

The next time Freel was sent down was due to a full roster with him coming off an injury that kept him out for over a month. That's simply tough luck- not some nefarious plan by Jim Bowden to rob the 27-year-old utility IF of opportunities. The new regime hasn't treated Ryan Freel any differently than Bowden did in the short time he had to evaluate him.

But what's this? Bowden was fired on 7/28 yet Freel was only recalled when a player went on the DL? And he was sent down again by someone not named Jim Bowden?? How could that be??? And how, if Bowden disliked Ryan Freel, why was Freel the first option Bowden turned to when a minor league infielder was required?

I hope Freel can be a good utility guy for us or even jump on the 2B slot by putting up positional average numbers there if we move Jimenez to SS. But no one screwed over Ryan Freel this season. What happened with Freel is what happens with any number of 27-year old minor leaguers who OPS around the .750 level. That's baseball. It's time you learned it.

wheels
09-12-2003, 10:29 PM
Back...And to the left.

Back...and to the left.

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD
So your issue with Konerko is that he was dealt for a better all around player (Mike Cameron)???


No that isn't my point at all -- so all your other diatribe was well, pointless.

I don't know why you have to be so difficult....and get so defensive.

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD
Do you have a link to that "recent report"? You must as it couldn't have been before 2003- Freel hadn't been with the Reds before that.

It couldn't have had anything to do with say...options...or...injuries. It must be that Bowden didn't like Ryan Freel? How in the world did Bowden know Ryan Freel long enough to like or dislike him???

Freel has the skill set of a decent bench option for the middle infield. That's great. Unfortunately, there's a lot more to running a Major League franchise than just calling up whomever you like, whenever you'd like to.

For the record, here are the Ryan Freel transactions:

04/19/03: Recalled Ryan Freel from AAA (replace Brandon Larson)
05/06/03: Optioned Freel to AAA (Larkin came off the DL)
05/22/03: Recalled Ryan Freel from AAA (Larkin on DL)
05/29/03: Placed Ryan Freel on 15-day DL
07/04/03: Activated Freel from DL and sent him to AAA (full roster)
07/28/03: Bob Boone and Jim Bowden Fired
07/31/03: Recalled Ryan Freel from AAA (Dempster on DL)
08/06/03: Optioned Freel to AAA (Larson back up)
08/20/03: Recalled Ryan Freel from AAA (Larson on DL 08/18)

Before Bowden was fired, Freel was called up twice- both times as a primary option to replace players lost to injury (Larkin) or poor performance (Larson). In fact, Ryan Freel was the first infielder recalled when the Reds needed a replacement- TWICE.

The next time Freel was sent down was due to a full roster with him coming off an injury that kept him out for over a month. That's simply tough luck- not some nefarious plan by Jim Bowden to rob the 27-year-old utility IF of opportunities. The new regime hasn't treated Ryan Freel any differently than Bowden did in the short time he had to evaluate him.

But what's this? Bowden was fired on 7/28 yet Freel was only recalled when a player went on the DL? And he was sent down again by someone not named Jim Bowden?? How could that be??? And how, if Bowden disliked Ryan Freel, why was Freel the first option Bowden turned to when a minor league infielder was required?

I hope Freel can be a good utility guy for us or even jump on the 2B slot by putting up positional average numbers there if we move Jimenez to SS. But no one screwed over Ryan Freel this season. What happened with Freel is what happens with any number of 27-year old minor leaguers who OPS around the .750 level. That's baseball. It's time you learned it.

I am not going to go back and look this up for you. It was in either the Enquirer or the Post or the DDN. Whether you believe me or not means nothing to me.

If you do -- fine. If you don't -- well, I'll have to point you towards the materials for that bridge buiklding project you seem to be so infatuated with.

Ravenlord
09-12-2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
If you do -- fine. If you don't -- well, I'll have to point you towards the materials for that bridge buiklding project you seem to be so infatuated with. you're one to be talking there.:rolleyes:

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Ravenlord
you're one to be talking there.:rolleyes:

You've been listening to too much Goth-Death-Suicide Metal.

Lighten up, dude.

Listen to some good stuff and keep on rockin in the free world.



:jump: :jump: :rock_band :jump: :rockon: :jump: :jump: :al_cohol: :beerme: :lol:

Ravenlord
09-12-2003, 11:44 PM
don't like death metal, haven't listened to goth metal in a really long time, and suicide metal doesn't exist as far as i know...mainly i listen to power and speed metal.

NEILYNG
09-12-2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Ravenlord
don't like death metal, haven't listened to goth metal in a really long time, and suicide metal doesn't exist as far as i know...mainly i listen to power and speed metal.

Suicide metal doesn't exist? Try telling that to your buddy Layne Staley or Kurt Cobain.

Ravenlord
09-12-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
Suicide metal doesn't exist? Try telling that to your buddy Layne Staley or Kurt Cobain. that's grunge metal and punk rock/metal. that has nothing to do with suicide. the closest you get to what could be termed suicide metal is death metal and doom metal, neither of which i like. as for Alice in Chains, the only 2 songs i liked from them is "I Stay Away" and "Rooster" (neither of which written by Staley, but by Jerry), and Nirvana i didn't think was that good. i liked Cobain's voice, but there are only 3 Nirvana songs that i actually like (the rest im indifferent). i own nothing, nor posess anything of the affore mentioned bands.

the evolution of threads sometimes amazes me.:p

NEILYNG
09-13-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Ravenlord
that's grunge metal and punk rock/metal. that has nothing to do with suicide. the closest you get to what could be termed suicide metal is death metal and doom metal, neither of which i like. as for Alice in Chains, the only 2 songs i liked from them is "I Stay Away" and "Rooster" (neither of which written by Staley, but by Jerry), and Nirvana i didn't think was that good. i liked Cobain's voice, but there are only 3 Nirvana songs that i actually like (the rest im indifferent). i own nothing, nor posess anything of the affore mentioned bands.

the evolution of threads sometimes amazes me.:p

This was Neil's reaction song to Kurt Cobain's suicide and Courtney Love's actions after it.

Sleeps with Angels (Neil Young)

She wasn't perfect
She had some trips of her own
He wasn't worried
At least he wasn't alone
Too late
He sleeps with angels
Too soon
He's always on someone's mind
He sleeps with angels
Too late
He sleeps with angels
Too soon

She was a teen queen
She saw the dark side of life
She made things happen
But when he did it that night
She ran up phone bills
She moved around
from town to town
Too late
He sleeps with angels
Too soon
He's always on someone's mind
He sleeps with angels
He sleeps with angels

Ravenlord
09-13-2003, 12:06 AM
good rhetoric. i would like to hear Skid Row, Temple of the Dog, or Jon Schaffer put music to it.

wheels
09-13-2003, 12:07 AM
Oh good grief.

letsgojunior
09-13-2003, 12:16 AM
Is there a point to this thread anymore?

SteelSD
09-13-2003, 12:21 AM
No that isn't my point at all -- so all your other diatribe was well, pointless.

I don't know why you have to be so difficult....and get so defensive.

Then what is your point? We dealt Paul Konerko for Mike Cameron and we ended up with a .900+ OPS'ing Sean Casey at 1B. Casey was the better prospect at the time (.949 Minor League OPS vs .927) and produced exceptionally for two seasons while Cameron was great in the OF in 1999.

If your point is that we shouldn't have dealt Konerko, it's also your point that we shouldn't have acquired Cameron. Frankly, that's a bad place to hang your hat.


I am not going to go back and look this up for you. It was in either the Enquirer or the Post or the DDN. Whether you believe me or not means nothing to me.

If you do -- fine. If you don't -- well, I'll have to point you towards the materials for that bridge buiklding project you seem to be so infatuated with.

So you have no ability to find whatever it is you're getting your "information" from. Whether I believe you is beside the point (I don't as your reputation suggests that you're as dishonest as dishonest comes).

And what is a "bridge buikling project"? Is that where you make stuff up and try to pass it off as truth? If you meant "bridge building project" you should know that you've just built your bridge...and you've jumped.

If you can't back up your opinions, I'd suggest that you discontinue posting them, kid.

NEILYNG
09-13-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by letsgojunior
Is there a point to this thread anymore?

LOL -- I think it's a moving target but there are several good things that we should not lose sight of going on here.

At one of if not the most difficult time that ever has existed for many of us Reds fans, real Reds fans are talking to one another -- agreeing, disagreeing, but talking; we are talking baseball -- past, present and future; we are talking other topics as well and building community among ourselves that is the kind of good things that ought to be happening on the Internet. Nobody's getting snarly at anyone else. And all of this is happening right here in RedsZone.

Tadaaaaaahh !!!!

I'm excited -- I am hearing God bless America playing in my head. Suddenly, it might just become 1976 again -- if only in our minds and our discussions with each other.

Maybe Roberto Petagine could replace Kurt Cobain in Nirvana? What do you guys think???

Ravenlord
09-13-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by NEILYNG
Maybe Roberto Petagine could replace Kurt Cobain in Nirvana? What do you guys think??? i think Dave Grohl is happy being in the spot light and i don't think Krist Novaselic (sp) even plays anymore...but i bet Roberto could at the very least write more coherant songs and be a better guitarist.:evilgrin:

CougarQuest
09-13-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by letsgojunior
Is there a point to this thread anymore?

From reading it, it appears the point is to build a bridge to the peach orchard, so you can listen to suicide rock, while watching aging baseball players eat peaches in japan. Other than that, it seems like mold. No one really wanted it to begin with, but it just won't die.

NEILYNG
09-13-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by SteelSD
Then what is your point? We dealt Paul Konerko for Mike Cameron and we ended up with a .900+ OPS'ing Sean Casey at 1B. Casey was the better prospect at the time (.949 Minor League OPS vs .927) and produced exceptionally for two seasons while Cameron was great in the OF in 1999.

If your point is that we shouldn't have dealt Konerko, it's also your point that we shouldn't have acquired Cameron. Frankly, that's a bad place to hang your hat.

No, my point is that IMO they should've kept Konerko over Casey. I felt that the Junior thing could have happened anyway, through free agency. My point is also that Konerko was NOT given a fair shot while in Cincy -- for reasosn that I don't understand.

Does that help you understand SteelSD???

NEILYNG
09-13-2003, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by SteelSD
So you have no ability to find whatever it is you're getting your "information" from. Whether I believe you is beside the point (I don't as your reputation suggests that you're as dishonest as dishonest comes).

And what is a "bridge buikling project"? Is that where you make stuff up and try to pass it off as truth? If you meant "bridge building project" you should know that you've just built your bridge...and you've jumped.

If you can't back up your opinions, I'd suggest that you discontinue posting them, kid.

This is uncalled for -- you are being a complete jerk.

Enough is enough.

By the way, I am probably old enough to be your father -- but the thought even crossing my mind is repulsive to me.

NEILYNG
09-13-2003, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by CougarQuest
From reading it, it appears the point is to build a bridge to the peach orchard, so you can listen to suicide rock, while watching aging baseball players eat peaches in japan. Other than that, it seems like mold. No one really wanted it to begin with, but it just won't die.

I think you are getting it now CougarQuest.

Let me help you take those thoughts alittle farther down the path you seem to be on now.....

Well, I dreamed I saw the silver
Space ships flying
In the yellow haze of the sun,
There were children crying
And colors flying
All around the chosen ones.
All in a dream, all in a dream
The loading had begun.
They were flying Mother Nature's
Silver seed to a new home in the sun.
Flying Mother Nature's
Silver seed to a new home.