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Kc61
03-30-2004, 05:48 PM
Well, let's have some predictions. I'll start but am never right on these things.

Olmedo, Valentin, Cruz, Christiansen get sent down. Clark and Hummel both make it. Theory is with injuries Reds need guys who can play positions, so Clark and Hummel better than Cruz and Valentin. (Freel not mentioned; now a starter.)

Van Poppel, Matthews, and Bong sent down. Reith, Riedling, Sanchez, Jones, Norton all make it joining Graves and Wagner in pen. 12 pitchers.

Unless there is a trade.

I think that gets it to 25 with Larson on DL.

Why am I wrong?

Red Leader
03-30-2004, 05:55 PM
Reith, Riedling, Sanchez, Jones, Norton all make it joining Graves and Wagner in pen. 12 pitchers.

I don't think Riedling will make it. I think he will be sent down in favor of Van Poppel, and will then be traded probably before opening day. I heard on rotoworld.com that the Marlins are interested in him and may make an offer. I'd like Justin Wayne back in return, please.

seven and chang
03-30-2004, 06:00 PM
lets see.

i have the same first name as the reds manager so i probably should have some special insight. but i dont =(

casey
jimenez
larkin
hummel
dunn
griffey
kearns
larue

lidle
wilson
haynes
acevedo
harang

graves
reidling
van poppel
wagner
norton
sanchez

freel
miller
pena
castro
olmedo
clark

im not sure why you break camp with 12 pitchers when it's often heard that with all the early off days one can go with 4 starters. seems contradictory to me.

Kc61
03-30-2004, 06:07 PM
Seven, good post. But if the Reds go with 11 pitchers and 6 bench players, I'd expect Valentin or Cruz to make it as a lefty pinch hitter (as VanderWal was supposed to be). I agree on the 12 pitchers, but Reds seem to want 12.

deltachi8
03-30-2004, 06:59 PM
heres is my team:

Lidle
Wilson
Harrang
Acevedo
Sanchez
Graves
Wagner
Norton
Bong
Jones
Van Poppel
Reidling

Casey
Jimenez
Larkin
Freel
LaRue
Kearns
Griff
Dunn
Pena
Clark
Valentin/Miller (not sure yet)
Castro
Hummel

DL: Haynes, Larson

IslandRed
03-30-2004, 07:06 PM
im not sure why you break camp with 12 pitchers when it's often heard that with all the early off days one can go with 4 starters. seems contradictory to me.

That's sometimes true, but not this year. As I read the schedule, and including the end of spring training, the Reds only have four off days in April, including a 15-day stretch with no off day. That's about typical for a month. Which raises the question of whether Miley wants to carry 12 all year, or if this is just a "until things settle down" solution. The latter, I hope -- carrying 12 pitchers all year = trying not to overwork the bullpen = the starters are getting shelled.

TeamBoone
03-30-2004, 07:06 PM
Norton has pretty much stunk up the joint during ST; IMHO, he doesn't deserve to make it.

wheels
03-30-2004, 07:08 PM
Oh man do I hope Haynes is DLed, but I haven't heard that mentioned in awhile.

Ravenlord
03-30-2004, 07:25 PM
Jimenez
Dunn
Griffey
Kearns
Casey
Larkin
Freel
LaRue

Lidle
Wilson
Acevedo
Haynes
Harang

Sanchez
Matthews
Riedling
Reith
Wagner
not sure who i hate less...Van Poppel or Jones

Miller
Pena
Castro
Cruz
Hummel

Matt700wlw
03-30-2004, 08:14 PM
Can we just get rid of Haynes, please? He's a waste of a roster spot that could actually be used for someone who may be able to contribute

M2
03-30-2004, 08:24 PM
Norton has pretty much stunk up the joint during ST; IMHO, he doesn't deserve to make it.

To give him some credit, he picked it up after his first few outings. I'd keep him.

Wheelhouse
03-30-2004, 08:36 PM
I think Valentin will make it--plays catcher, 1B, 3B...he's also been flawless defensively and done well with the stick. I think Hummel needs to play every day.

gm
03-30-2004, 08:39 PM
"he's also been flawless defensively"

Uhh, Javy had some "adventures" over at 1b during the Cleveland game. But (as I said awhile back) anyone who can help keep a 1b glove off Dunn's left hand is doing Adam a huge favor

Hummel can play everyday at Louisville, just as long as he's not blocking EdE

4256 Hits
03-30-2004, 08:45 PM
Can we just get rid of Haynes, please? He's a waste of a roster spot that could actually be used for someone who may be able to contribute

I think this topic has been covered in about another 10 threads I don't think there needs to be another. :scared:

As for the roster I sure hope that hummell is not on it but my guess he will be.

Spring~Fields
03-30-2004, 08:47 PM
Can we just get rid of Haynes, please? He's a waste of a roster spot that could actually be used for someone who may be able to contribute


Amen to that, I have zero faith in that guy :scared: . He reminds me of some of those scrubs we had a few years ago when all we had to do was look to see who was pitching to tell if they would win or not the day before the game was played.

bleedsred
03-30-2004, 09:52 PM
If Haynes has his first 3 starts like last years, the Reds should dump him immediately and bring up a young arm, they shouldn't care what the guy makes. The Reds wouldn't even have to bring up Claussen or Bong right away, they could bring up Etherton or Austin until those guys are ready. I just can't see anyone wanting to trade for a guy like Haynes at the deadline, even IF he had a decent season. Surely there will be better arms than Haynes come trade time. The guy should feel fortunate to be in ML baseball, after the horrible season and coming into ST out of shape the guy should have been shown the door right then. JMHO....I'm sure it is shared by many...


FIRST POST!!! :GAC:

Guacarock
03-31-2004, 03:39 AM
Larue
Casey
Jimenez
Larkin
Freel
Kearns
Griffey
Dunn

Miller
Castro
Hummel
Cruz
Pena

Lidle
Wilson
Acevedo
Harang
Haynes

Sanchez
Van Poppel
Reith
Norton
Jones
Wagner
Graves

Reassigned to Louisville: Olmedo, Clark, Valentin, Christensen, Bong

Released or signed to minor league contract: Matthews

Traded to Marlins: John Riedling (I'd ask for Mike Neu in return, the Reds' reliever grabbed from us last year by Oakland in the Rule 5 Draft)

On the Bubble: Hummel. He'd go down to Louisville anyway once Larson comes off the DL in April, so his spot could just be ceded to Clark or Valentin, or else a 'tweener cast off by another squad over the next week.

Likewise, if we can land Neu for Riedling, I'd think twice before elevating Jones to the 40-man roster. I recognize the rationale for carrying 12 pitchers on the staff. Our bullpen looks a little raggy and loaded with guys who have shown some promise but not so much consistency. Still, 11 pitchers ought to get us through the spring, assuming we can sound a gong and rapidly bring up a Neu-Bong from Louisville.

If we're going to pad, let's flesh out the anemic bench. Dunn's on fire, but Kearns, Griffey and Jimenez haven't exactly hit their stride as yet.

zombie-a-go-go
03-31-2004, 06:54 AM
If Haynes has his first 3 starts like last years, the Reds should dump him immediately and bring up a young arm, they shouldn't care what the guy makes. The Reds wouldn't even have to bring up Claussen or Bong right away, they could bring up Etherton or Austin until those guys are ready. I just can't see anyone wanting to trade for a guy like Haynes at the deadline, even IF he had a decent season. Surely there will be better arms than Haynes come trade time. The guy should feel fortunate to be in ML baseball, after the horrible season and coming into ST out of shape the guy should have been shown the door right then. JMHO....I'm sure it is shared by many...


FIRST POST!!! :GAC:

True, true, true, very true, and welcome!

I thnk that covers it.

Kc61
03-31-2004, 11:55 AM
Cincinnati Reds - Optioned pitcher Jung Keun Bong and infielder Tim Hummel to Louisville of the International League (AAA); assigned pitcher Mike Matthews, infielder Jacob Cruz and outfielders McKay Christensen and Jermaine Clark to minor league camp.

Valentin and Olmedo still on big club. Bong and Matthews gone to AAA, one more pitcher to go.

Doc. Scott
03-31-2004, 11:58 AM
Pena survives! I wanted Cruz to make the team, but Wily Mo is the one that can't get away.

Redny
03-31-2004, 12:04 PM
Okay, so who is the lefty OF/PH off the bench?

KYRedsFan
03-31-2004, 12:04 PM
Hope for Haynes to lay a stink bomb on the mound today.

Redny
03-31-2004, 12:06 PM
Hope for Haynes to lay a stink bomb on the mound today.

I can't ever recall wishing for a Reds pitcher to get shelled, but today I will be.

Doc. Scott
03-31-2004, 12:06 PM
Both Valentin and Olmedo should still be sent down, mind you. Especially Olmedo.

If Valentin is kept as the first base backup, that's a loss for offense (Cruz) in the name of "versatility"... how many clubs still bother with three catchers these days, especially when your other two guys are 100%?

Kc61
03-31-2004, 12:07 PM
One extra pitcher left. Would have to think Riedling trade could happen, or Van Poppel or Reith to go to AAA. Big surprise to me is that Olmedo made team over Hummel. Guess somebody wants some defense on the team. Bench is Valentin, Olmedo, Pena, Castro and Miller.

Doc. Scott
03-31-2004, 12:09 PM
Bench is Valentin, Olmedo, Pena, Castro and Miller.
----

One guy that can hit. Great. Just great.

westofyou
03-31-2004, 12:14 PM
Dave Miley a guy from the day of 80's baseball. A friend to little guys with gloves all over the western hemisphere.



BATTERS BA SLG OBA G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS E
Pena .370 .674 .408 19 46 7 17 31 3 1 3 11 2 9 0 1 2
Olmedo .217 .304 .294 23 46 4 10 14 2 1 0 4 5 9 1 0 1
Valentin .265 .429 .368 23 49 4 13 21 2 0 2 5 8 4 0 0 3
Castro .264 .396 .286 20 53 4 14 21 0 2 1 7 2 9 0 0 3

Boss-Hog
03-31-2004, 12:17 PM
:dflynn: :explode: :al_cohol:


Bench is Valentin, Olmedo, Pena, Castro and Miller.
----

One guy that can hit. Great. Just great.

princeton
03-31-2004, 12:20 PM
Reds set up roster as if Larue (or possibly Miller) will be traded soon.

M2
03-31-2004, 12:28 PM
You might be right princeton, though I think Miley just sent a clear message that he values position flexibility/pinch bunting above bolstering the hitting.

A glaring fault, IMO.

traderumor
03-31-2004, 12:29 PM
Doesn't Olmedo have to make the team with Larkin probably sitting out at least one game a week? Plus, you have to consider that one bench player is going to start in the early going in Freel. But a weak bench is no surprise, but I'm not sure I understand Cruz not making the team. Can someone enlighten me there?

I also don't see Bong and Claussen long for AAA. I am glad Norton was selected in the end over Matthews, who just had an awful spring. Maybe he can get it back together in AAA. He is a known quantity and hopefully he just picked the wrong time to struggle. That also keeps Sanchez in the mix. I just wish they would flip flop Haynes and Sanchez for the rotation and bullpen. Or, put Sanchez in the rotation, release Haynes, and bring up Bong for the second lefty in the pen. I also expect and hope to see Riedling go, no love lost there, he just walks too many for my tastes.

knuckler
03-31-2004, 12:32 PM
Reds set up roster as if Larue (or possibly Miller) will be traded soon.

Reidling or Reith, too. Can't imagine there being a trade market for Van Poppel or Jones as they were freely available not too long ago.

M2
03-31-2004, 12:34 PM
It looks like Miley thinks he needs Olmedo up to b/u Larkin and Barry leaving yesterday's game with a tweak probably influenced the decision, but they pay Castro good money and, as long as he's around, why carry another iffy stick?

Rey's probably up only until Larson returns. At least that's my guess.

Red Leader
03-31-2004, 12:34 PM
Reds set up roster as if Larue (or possibly Miller) will be traded soon.

I agree with you, princeton, but who is out there that is need of a catcher. I don't recall hearing any teams' starting catcher or backup catcher being lost for the season. The only one I can think of that is a ? is Arizona's Rob Hammock and he played in the outfield in a minor league game the other day, although I don't think he's ready to catch yet after knee surgery. Arizona still has Brent Mayne and Bobby Estelella, though so I don't know who else there is...

Kc61
03-31-2004, 12:37 PM
I don't think they'll trade a catcher. Valentin didn't catch much this spring, is mostly a switch hitting pinch hitter who plays a couple of positions.

Also have to guess that when Larson comes back, Olmedo will go down, to avoid a glut of infielders. That will help the bench (Freel over Olmedo).

Other possibility is Riedling trade. Maybe Reds will get a bench player instead of a kid pitcher, if it happens.

traderumor
03-31-2004, 12:42 PM
It looks like Miley thinks he needs Olmedo up to b/u Larkin and Barry leaving yesterday's game with a tweak probably influenced the decision, but they pay Castro good money and, as long as he's around, why carry another iffy stick?

Rey's probably up only until Larson returns. At least that's my guess.
Oops, how could I forget Juan. Now the Cruz demotion makes even less sense.

LvJ
03-31-2004, 12:42 PM
Reds set up roster as if Larue (or possibly Miller) will be traded soon.

No, not really. Valentine can play 1st and 3rd. He is not just a catcher. He made the team because he can hit alittle and can play different positions.

westofyou
03-31-2004, 12:45 PM
Valentine can play 1st and 3rd.


Can he play 3rd? has he ever for the Reds? He never played it anywhere else.

princeton
03-31-2004, 12:46 PM
No, not really. Valentine can play 1st and 3rd. He is not just a catcher.

Yes, really. He hits very little, even for a catcher. His only value is as a backup catcher, not as a backup anything else

zombie-a-go-go
03-31-2004, 12:49 PM
You might be right princeton, though I think Miley just sent a clear message that he values position flexibility/pinch bunting above bolstering the hitting.

A glaring fault, IMO.

Maybe he just has a lot of faith in Dunn? ;)

It boggles the mind that Valentine was kept up and Cruz goes down. 3 catchers is ludicrous. At least he didn't try to put Pena on waivers.

LvJ
03-31-2004, 12:49 PM
Can he play 3rd? has he ever for the Reds? He never played it anywhere else.

I got it from this board, so don't ask me.

westofyou
03-31-2004, 12:52 PM
Then I guess he doesn't.

gm
03-31-2004, 12:56 PM
I think Miley just sent a clear message that he values position flexibility/pinch bunting above bolstering the hitting.

You shoulda seen this coming. Dave is an old-school Mgr, and Valentin is a classic 25th man on a NL roster.

I never saw Javy make a play at 3rd base, but I suspect the Red's coaches felt he could pick-n-huck-it at least as good as Hummel (that wouldn't be hard)

Doc. Scott
03-31-2004, 01:11 PM
He was working out at third in ST earlier, but I don't remember him actually getting into a game there. I know he did play first several times.

gm
03-31-2004, 01:16 PM
He was working out at third in ST earlier, but I don't remember him actually getting into a game there. I know he did play first several times.

Javy played 1b a lot, BMO. Much more than he caught, at least during GFL game action.

Far East
03-31-2004, 01:35 PM
I think Miley just sent a clear message that he values position flexibility/pinch bunting above bolstering the hitting.

Player P GP GS AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI AVG TB SLG%

Ray Olmedo SS 23 0 46 4 10 2 1 0 4 .217 14 .304

Juan Castro 2B 20 0 53 4 14 0 2 1 7 .264 21 .396

Jacob Cruz RF 24 0 59 6 16 3 0 2 7 .271 25 .424

Corky Miller C 16 0 42 6 12 3 0 1 8 .286 18 .429

Tim Hummel 3B 20 0 51 5 16 3 0 0 7 .314 19 .373

Javier Valentin C 23 0 49 4 13 2 0 2 5 .265 21 .429

You're correct because of the above candidates Olmedo had the worst ST numbers, and Hummel looked like he can handle 3B or 2B, which is why I thought they had been giving D'Angelo a few SS innings. Ray even looked more unsteady on defense than in '03. Castro and Jimenez should have been sufficient backup for Larkin, with Hummel and Freel thrown into the 2B mix.

It's interesting that Miley has chosen to keep a couple of switch -- pardon the expression -- hitters for the bench. Although Valentin does at least drive the ball from gap to gap in BP.

I think that if Cruz had had a better ST he'd have stayed considering that Miley has batted him in the middle of the Bats' lineup, but he K'ed too many times against righty pitching and was too easily doubled up on grounders with a runner on first.

Puffy
03-31-2004, 01:42 PM
I knew it was coming, but seriously, that is an expansion team bench. Just putrid. And thats counting Freel, whom I love (in a manly, baseball type way, not that there's anything wrong with that)

JQLorenz
03-31-2004, 02:06 PM
Bench is Valentin, Olmedo, Pena, Castro and Miller.
----

One guy that can hit. Great. Just great.


Nice! A 5 man bench..
Its good to see that besides Kearns, Dunn, Griff.. the only real OF is Pena???
I suppose Freel can be considered there too, but if he's starting at 3B, shouldn't we have another backup OF?

If you're going to keep Valentin, then get rid of Corky. As much as I like him, three catchers doesn't make sense, especially when you are carrying 12 pitchers!!!

Guacarock
03-31-2004, 02:22 PM
Let's see...

Two backup catchers, two punch-and-judy middle infielders, an extra bullpen arm seeing as how the April game schedule is so intense.

Geesh! Is this an unbalanced squad or what? Not that Cruz or Clark were blistering the ball all spring, but to go into the season without a legitimate LH stick off the bench is plumb crazy. Valentin doesn't cut the mustard here, as any examination of his career stats will clearly attest.

Let's hope a trade is in the works or a wire-waiver pickup that might justify holding back non-roster invitees like Cruz or Clark in favor of bringing up both Olmedo and Castro to back up Larkin. You would think the old man hadn't just winced running to 1B, but was already hobbling around on two crutches.

Strike one against Dave Miley.

Bill
03-31-2004, 02:26 PM
OK, I take back my praise for Miley's decision making. Hard to believe he passed over both Cruz and Clark (both whom are versatile) to carry a couple redundancies (2 backup catchers and 2 light hitting SS).

SteelSD
03-31-2004, 02:33 PM
Even considering that Olmedo is going north due to Larson's injury, this bench is awful.

I wish I could figure out why Miley is enamoured with a Valentin. Must be that he can technically man a couple positions and can hit (term used very loosely) from both sides of the plate.

Vary rarely have I seen a bench that actually projects to give an opponent's bullpen more confidence with the game on the line. This one qualifies. Ick.

VR
03-31-2004, 02:33 PM
I am surprised Hummel was sent down instead of Olmedo. He at least gives a bit of a chance for an extra base hit as a PH or late inning replacement.

deltachi8
03-31-2004, 04:06 PM
Rey's probably up only until Larson returns. At least that's my guess.

My guess to, Ray goes down if Larson comes back. My original thought was Hummel would be that guy.

balk
03-31-2004, 05:06 PM
Valentin doesn't bother me as much as Olmedo. I would have preferred any of Cruz, Clark or Hummel over Olmedo. With a bench that already includes Juan Castro, what value does Olmedo bring? At least Cruz and Clark have a chance at the plate. Even O'Brien said a couple months ago that Olmedo needed more seasoning in the minors. What happened this spring to change that impression???????

The more I think about it, I would have kept any two of Cruz, Clark or Hummel over Valentin and Olmedo. Bad decision by O'Brien and Miley IMO. Do they watch these games?

balk
03-31-2004, 05:09 PM
I wonder if Clark's injury yesterday was a factor???

Red Leader
03-31-2004, 05:15 PM
Rotoworld.com:

Reds optioned INF Tim Hummel and LHP Jung Bong to Triple-A Louisville.

Concerns over Hummel's defense appear to be what got him banished from the roster. Ray Olmedo might be kept as a backup until Brandon Larson returns. Bong will be used as a starting pitcher at Louisville.

traderumor
03-31-2004, 05:57 PM
Bad decision by O'Brien and Miley IMO. Do they watch these games?They not only watch the games, but they also are privy to things that we as fans do not, which sometimes has us all scratching our heads until more information comes to light. Sometimes, like in the Boone era, more information never came to light because the moves were just dumb, but I'll trust they know something we don't at this point. Another thing to keep in mind is that opening day rosters are minor worries--its how long you stay with those who turned out to be ST fool's gold or they figure out that it was just made a bonehead decision that makes the difference.

Doc. Scott
03-31-2004, 06:29 PM
I understand about Olmedo. He'll be back in AAA in a few weeks. Valentin is the guy that pisses me off. He has very little to offer this club. Another club, maybe, but not this one. One look at this set of numbers and you'll know you don't want Wily Mo (promising, still bad plate discipline) and Valentin being our eighth-inning hammers.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/valenja01.shtml

You want guys who can strike a little fear in pitchers' hearts, not mirth. Where's Russ Branyan when you need him?

Kc61
03-31-2004, 06:50 PM
Guess Valentin is in the VanderWal slot. Now's when we pay the price for shoveling incident.

If Reds pick up another bench player, I'd guess it will be to replace Valentin.

Krusty
03-31-2004, 07:08 PM
I have a hunch the Reds front office will be watching the waiver wire very closely the next few days.

gm
03-31-2004, 07:29 PM
I have a hunch the Reds front office will be watching the waiver wire very closely the next few days.

Krusty you must've read my mind. From the ESPN transactions list

Boston released Terry Shumpert (pass)

Pittsburgh waived Joe Beimel (ditto)

The Marlins said "buh-bye" to Brian Banks (ask ramp about him)

KronoRed
03-31-2004, 07:52 PM
As of right now the backups on the bench may just be as bad as it can be, we better HOPE that the starting 8 can play 9 innings and 162 games :scared:

4256 Hits
03-31-2004, 08:26 PM
I am serious about this in games that Jimmy Haynes is not starting he is the Reds 2nd best pitch hitter after Pena maybe third because I think Castro might be better than him. 8^(

Unassisted
03-31-2004, 10:18 PM
I am serious about this in games that Jimmy Haynes is not starting he is the Reds 2nd best pitch hitter after Pena maybe third because I think Castro might be better than him. 8^(4256, so you want Haynes to do a Brooks Kieshnick in reverse? :idea: It would be interesting if, instead of DLing :haynes: to start the season, the FO sent him to the minors to learn a position.

WVRedsFan
04-01-2004, 01:20 AM
OK...I've been AWOL. Too daggone busy and not happy about it. I've tried to keep up. Heck, i even got to listen to today's game (I was in the car and my new Acura TSX has the best AM radio--from 330 miles away, WLW was strong!).

I was wondering about Sanchez. His stats looked good and today, he couldn't get anyone out. I fear this decision. Any opinions?

Oh yeah, being AWOL means that I got a surprise when I logged on. Surely, we won't be Cubs or Dodger Blue on Opening Day...will we? :scared:

Gary Redus
04-01-2004, 07:42 AM
I am still trying to figure how Jacob Cruz doesn't make this team. Like others have said, this bench is ill concived. Going with 12 pitchers makes no sense to me either. If Reidling is moved to the fish, could it be for a Hollandsworth type?