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traderumor
04-06-2004, 01:30 PM
It's kinda slow around here on an off day and we don't have really any goofy managerial moves to still be debating, and we're tired of "will Griffey play...ever?" So here's what annoys me most. Not steroids, too many homers, plastic grass, or Barry Bonds. As I listened, once again, to a parade of pitchers, and knowing that we likely have a more capable hitter playing in AAA (Cruz) that is not up here because we have to carry 12 arms for Miley to have at his disposal. That's seven relievers for any game. Now, in our case, one could argue that we are lucky to get six innings out of someone. Fine, let someone go for two innings. For example, yesterday, Riedling pitched a very good inning and got yanked because Dusty brought up a left handed pinch hitter. It takes an hour and a half to play the first 6-7 innings, and another hour and a half to play the last few innings. Then Joe Borowski gets a "save" because he had a cushy three run cushion in which to protect for one whole inning.

In other words, I am annoyed by the modern manager's bullpen management. Give me Clay Carroll or Pedro Borbon that came in and held the opponent for the last three innings to get their save. But then that's the irony here. Sparky was the primary innovator that gave rise to the modern "lefty specialist" and "closer."

BigRed75
04-06-2004, 01:35 PM
Man that's easy...Griffey trade rumors, people who want to trade Griffey and people bashing Griffey.

MWM
04-06-2004, 01:40 PM
Overreacting to one game!

I was at BW3 for the first 4 innings yesterday. There was guy in there at the table next to mine who lived and died by every single pitch. If there was a borderline ball/strike called in the Cubs favor, he was swearing. If a Reds batter swung and missed, he was hitting the table. On one of the double play balls, you would have thought we just lost the 7th game of the world series. I can't understand how it's fun to be a fan and be wound that tight about it.

bomarl1969
04-06-2004, 01:41 PM
1. Knowing its baseball season and I'm dying for it to be football season
2. Being more excited about the Bengals than the Reds (never thought I would see that day)
3. People saying Pete Rose should not be in the HOF
4. Ken Griffey Jr.
5. The Reds not spending money
6. Bandwagon jumpers
7. People saying Pete Rose should not be in the HOF
8. Animal rights activists
9. Democrats
10.People saying Pete Rose should not be in the HOF
11.People saying Pete Rose should not be in the HOF
12.People saying Pete Rose should not be in the HOF

macro
04-06-2004, 01:44 PM
Okay, mine's admittedly silly. It's the Reds black shirts and black caps they wear with the road uniforms. They're especially hideous when a player wears the long red socks with them. If they're gonna have the black sleeves and caps, then wear black socks for heaven's sake.

Another also has to do with uniforms, and is equally nitpicky. It's the colored jerseys teams wear during games. It looks like they're still in batting practice. Stick with the gray or white, please.

The third is that darned notch they put in GAB.

:nono:

For what it's worth, though, traderumor, I'm completely with you on the "saves" thing. It's the most overrated statistic in the game.

westofyou
04-06-2004, 01:45 PM
Pete Rose Supporters ;)

Phil in BG
04-06-2004, 01:48 PM
The inactivity to address the disparity in payroll. I believe in a free enterprise system, but why is it wrong to share TV, Cable and radio money? The Yankees can't sell cable time without an opponent.

TeamCasey
04-06-2004, 01:56 PM
The third is that darned notch they put in GAB.

:nono:


I agree. We lost some great seats on that one.

Austin_Kearns
04-06-2004, 01:57 PM
1. Griffey Being hurt.
2. Kearns' batting average.
3. Dunn's batting average.
4. Casey not hitting a homer in Spring Training.
5. Pete Rose not in HOF!
6. Griffey Being hurt.
7. Griffey Being hurt.
8. Reds not getting good pitching.
9. LOSING TO THE FREAKIN CUBS!!
10. DAMN YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
11. DAMN YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
12. DAMN YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
13.DAMN YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

MWM
04-06-2004, 02:03 PM
People who care about batting average. ;)

TeamCasey
04-06-2004, 02:08 PM
What annoys me most? When the predictions and rants of naysayers and trolls comes true. (KGJ comes to mind at the top of that list. No .... I'm not blaming him for injuries. But Gallagher is running around out there with a voodoo doll chocked full of pins). That just pisses me off.

MikeS21
04-06-2004, 02:09 PM
Overreacting to one game!

I was at BW3 for the first 4 innings yesterday. There was guy in there at the table next to mine who lived and died by every single pitch. If there was a borderline ball/strike called in the Cubs favor, he was swearing. If a Reds batter swung and missed, he was hitting the table. On one of the double play balls, you would have thought we just lost the 7th game of the world series. I can't understand how it's fun to be a fan and be wound that tight about it.
Couldn't agree more. Half the people on this forum need to take a huge Chill Pill and realize that NO team is going to go 162-0. I saw nothing yesterday that made me want to toss out the baseball season and wait on football.

Get to the end of June and you're 25 games under .500, then it may be time to find other entertainment for the rest of the summer.

gm
04-06-2004, 02:13 PM
When my VCRs go on the fritz, every April (grrr...)

Oil mixed with water in one vehicle

A short in the ignition harness of the other

The Reds (and Blazers') woes pale in comparison

15fan
04-06-2004, 02:18 PM
Our unobstructed view of the neighbors' back yard, which looks like something straight out of Sanford and Son.

On second thought, let's change it to: Dick Vitale.

traderumor
04-06-2004, 02:47 PM
What annoys me most? When the predictions and rants of naysayers and trolls comes true. (KGJ comes to mind at the top of that list. No .... I'm not blaming him for injuries. But Gallagher is running around out there with a voodoo doll chocked full of pins). That just pisses me off.

Well, TC, throw enough crap at the wall and some of it is bound to stick.

KronoRed
04-06-2004, 02:52 PM
Man that's easy...Griffey trade rumors, people who want to trade Griffey and people bashing Griffey.


They annoy me as well, what will they do when JR is gone and the Reds still stink like a cat box.

Puffy
04-06-2004, 03:00 PM
That both Melena and Larissa of Average Joe fame picked the good looking guys, once again reaffirming that girls can talk all they want about how laughing is the most important thing, and looks don't matter - they do, and women are just as shallow as men!

Oh, and people who don't say thank you when you hold the door open for them.

listen up
04-06-2004, 03:38 PM
1. Watching teams like the Astros, Cubs, Yankees, Orioles, Tigers, and even more pick up big names to improve their weaknesses while the Reds big pick up of the off-season is Cory Lidle.

2. People who bash the Bearcats for being thugs and criminals and Huggins running an outlaw program while schools like Duke will get praised no matter what they do for having such a clean program; even when the shady recruiting of Duhon gets discovered.

3. Bill Walton

4. Every bandwagon Yankee and Duke fan that claims, "I've been a (Yankee/Duke) fan my whole life!"

5. Biased announcers

Raisor
04-06-2004, 03:44 PM
People who care about batting average. ;)

Since it was his first post, I'm willing to let it slide this time. Next time, however, I'm pulling out the old stand by!

:mhcky21:

TRF
04-06-2004, 03:49 PM
People who care about batting average. ;)

People that dismiss batting average :RedinDC:

zombie-a-go-go
04-06-2004, 03:50 PM
My desk on Tuesday after I take off on Opening Day.

Pubs that don't have Sam Adams, "but we have Samuel Adams Spring Ale!"

Seeing Castro yesterday when we should've seen WMP.

Listening to complaints about things that the complainer can not/will not change (this includes myself, now, thank you very much. :) )

MWM
04-06-2004, 03:52 PM
People that dismiss batting average :RedinDC:

Please, not this discussion again. Does it count if I don't dismiss BA about 10% of the time. :p

2001MUgrad
04-06-2004, 03:53 PM
Carl Lindner.

TRF
04-06-2004, 03:55 PM
thppt yourself. personally i love this arguement, because everytime i have i learn something new.

wheels
04-06-2004, 03:55 PM
Bunting.

Austin_Kearns
04-06-2004, 03:58 PM
im sorry about the batting average comment but Dunn tries to kill the ball everytime and once in a while he makes contact. again im sorry about the average comment

Roy Tucker
04-06-2004, 03:59 PM
Lists like these.

TRF
04-06-2004, 03:59 PM
Relax. it's been a long running arguement on this board. You should really see Raisors "Old Standby".

RedFanAlways1966
04-06-2004, 04:01 PM
(1) Fans who act like one error or one strikeout cost the whole season.
>> Both errors & strikeouts are a part of the game we love. Get over it!
(2) Steroids and the fact that the MLBPA will not come "clean".
>> The biggest black-eye for MLB in quite some time.
(3) The financial setup of MLB.
>> Two words... it sucks.
(4) Batters who "act like they want to charge a pitcher".
>> Do it! Do not take baby steps toward the mound. Do not give the catcher and half of both benches time to get there. You wanna act tough, then rush to the hill. Throw a few punches before everyone gets there.
(5) The Yankees, the Red Sox and the Cubs.
>> I still have an "old" hatred for the L.A. Dodgers too.
(6) Artificial turf.

traderumor
04-06-2004, 04:03 PM
I like Batting Average. It provides information about a hitter. I am annoyed by those who belittle others with their perceived superior knowledge of the art and science of evaluating baseball players.

Raisor
04-06-2004, 04:03 PM
Relax. it's been a long running arguement on this board. You should really see Raisors "Old Standby".

Well, since it's been requested!


I'm sure we can agree to the following:
A Double is better then a Single.
A Triple is better then a Double.
A Home Run is better then a Triple.
Now, assuming we CAN agree to all of that, why would you use a stat that measures all hits the same AND completely ignores Walks, especially when we have other stats that do measure all of that?

There, I feel better now.
:RedinDC:

TRF
04-06-2004, 04:07 PM
see? i told you it was good. it's flawed of course, but it is good. :)

zombie-a-go-go
04-06-2004, 04:09 PM
(4) Batters who "act like they want to charge a pitcher".
>> Do it! Do not take baby steps toward the mound. Do not give the catcher and half of both benches time to get there. You wanna act tough, then rush to the hill. Throw a few punches before everyone gets there.


Yeah!

Jeremy Piergallini
04-06-2004, 04:20 PM
What annoys me the most:

1) Generational Welfare recipients, while I work my ass off with a full time job, in school part time, building a house, wife and two kids. I'm not on welfare and I'm making it. It's called work ethic, look it up.

2) People who sue over stupid crap. Did you forget to get in line when God handed out the common sense or were you to busy staring at a light in awe like a bug about to be zapped. New U.S. slogan: If it went wrong, it was his fault, if it went right, it was my idea.

3) Drivers who act like they are the only one on the road. I don't condone what road rage drivers do, but I sure understand. Like for the instance when the guy who got cut off by a woman reached in and took her dog and threw it into traffic,....he took the wrong being out of the car. I love it when somebody cuts you off and gives you a dirty look like it was your fault.

4) Politicians. Does it really matter who we vote in? They are all crooks who get paid $130,000 to work 1/4 of the year. I don't trust them, but I still vote hoping against hope. Perfect breakdown: "Poli" means many, while "tics" are blood-sucking creatures.

5) Athletes who wine about wanting to be paid what they are worth and holding out. So, $3 million isn't enough to live on there RIchie Rich, you need $7 million to help your family out and support your family. Excuse me, I need to go get a tissue................................. OK, I'm back. My wife and I make less than $50,000 combined. It can be done. Quit whining you overpaid, whiny, ignorante piece of monkey feces. I'm supposed to feel sorry for you? I feel sorry for our troops in Iraq getting their arses fired at on a daily basis, not you who needs that payday so that you can go pick out the Thursday afternoon BMW to add to your collection.

6) Owners who whine about the salaries being outrageous. I'm having a hard time coming up with the rationale on this one. Who pays these athletes? Morons.

Ok, enough for now. Please :help:

westofyou
04-06-2004, 04:23 PM
Who pays these athletes? Morons.



You and I do Jeremy... you, me and all of us.

westofyou
04-06-2004, 04:28 PM
Like for the instance when the guy who got cut off by a woman reached in and took her dog and threw it into traffic,....he took the wrong being out of the car.


he was the one who cut HER off.

http://www.debased.com/debased/content/bizarre-news/old-news/dogthrow-new.html


The Police Department has one lead investigator and an assistant working on the case. McBurnett said she tapped the man's vehicle after he cut her off in heavy traffic near the San Jose airport. When confronted by the driver, McBurnett said, she rolled down her window to apologize. That's when the subject snatched Leo and fled.

Andrew Burnett, in prison for flinging a bichon frisé dog into traffic during a fit of road rage three years ago, is suing the dead dog's former owner and the Mercury News for causing him everything from mental anguish to post-traumatic stress disorder over the matter.



http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/5283757.htm

Jeremy Piergallini
04-06-2004, 04:32 PM
Westofyou,
I guess in a roundabout way, I do pay the athletes, but I don't make the contract offers and I don't do the scouting. I don't sign the paychecks.

Sorry about the guy with the dog, I thought it was the other way around.
Ridiculous that he is suing. Should have thought about that before hand.
Like I said, I understand what they do, but I don't condone the violence.

traderumor
04-06-2004, 04:34 PM
Ah, as a great fan of 60s baseball (too bad there weren't more of them, maybe the mound would have never been lowered), just heard an annoying comment on the Orioles-Red Sox game (3-1 Sox) about how the Royals-White Sox game was the most exciting of Opening Day because of the 9-7 comeback victory, yet I greatly enjoyed catching the end of the Pirates 2-1 victory over the Phils. I'll take a good ole pitcher's duel, or a nice 4-3 game over the softball-like fare that we are so often spoon fed. Of course, 2-1 games don't make for many ESPN highlights, I guess.

KronoRed
04-06-2004, 04:38 PM
The guy who threw a dog in traffic needs to be locked up for life, sorry but I have little tolerance for nut jobs who think it's ok to be cruel to any innocent domestic animal, you do that when your pissed about traffic you're a sick human being who needs to be in jail for the rest of your life.

To keep this on topic, they annoy me.

Kc61
04-06-2004, 04:43 PM
What annoys me the most is the idea that the Reds won't compete this year only because of starting pitching. I think the starters are improved over last year, when Mr. Andersen was on the squad. And with Acevedo and Harang, at least there are some young starters who may have a future. The team has tried, under Bowden and OBrien, to fix the rotation and deserve credit for trying (so far unsuccessfully, but the future looks ok).

But the bullpen is worse. Sullivan, Williamson, Reitsma, White, Heredia, etc. all gone. Replacements are probably not as good.

The starting position players are unimproved. I won't say worse, since Jimenez wasn't here when the season opened in 03. But no other good position player was added. I still can't stand all the strikeout artists at the bat.

The bench. Let's not get morose.

If the Reds don't get some better young position players, we may see Jimmy Haynes at third base soon. At least he can hit.

westofyou
04-06-2004, 04:56 PM
The guy who threw a dog in traffic needs to be locked up for life, sorry but I have little tolerance for nut jobs who think it's ok to be cruel to any innocent domestic animal, you do that when your pissed about traffic you're a sick human being who needs to be in jail for the rest of your life.

To keep this on topic, they annoy me.

I use to commute on that streach of road where he did it, it's right in front of the SJC Airport, 6 lane street, 3 both ways. he did it at a light at a major intersection that when at rush hour there is easily 100 cars poised at all four lights.


Westofyou,
I guess in a roundabout way, I do pay the athletes, but I don't make the contract offers and I don't do the scouting. I don't sign the paychecks.


Right, but also a 40 K house in 1971 goes for 200K or more in some places, the rookie salary in 1969 was in the $6600 neighborhood. The union has created along with the fans the cult of the superstar, that bus driven by multi channeled marketing and the boomng cottage industry of baseball related items makes it a lucrative business, one that bleeds cash in many markets and stuffs mattresses in others. I think currently the sport is experiencing an adjustment back to controled spending for fringe talent, soon there won't be as many losers making so much money that it makes you sick, however the slaary of rookie in MLB would do me just fine.

I know many of the folks around here are into the "business of baseball" as in the money/allocation so on and so on. If I spent as much time thinking about the business of the game as I did the game I'd hate the game. That's why I like the season the best and try not to live pitch to pitch, the season is like a big ol puddle of mud and I'm just a pig who wants to roll around in it and suck up the good life before someone hangs me by my feet and makes me dinner.

Rumor has it they eat alot of pork these days in the Linder house.

Johnny Footstool
04-06-2004, 05:35 PM
David Justice doing color commentary. That is easily the most annoying thing on the planet. He makes Tim McCarver seem concise, pithy, and insightful.

Fil3232
04-06-2004, 06:45 PM
Off days...especially after a loss

KronoRed
04-06-2004, 06:56 PM
Off days...especially after a loss

Another 10-4, why can't we just get a 4 game series to start the year? or take thursday off, yeesh.

creek14
04-06-2004, 07:46 PM
War and death and violence and pain and suffering.

People who park in handicap slots and jog into the store.

Players who cross themselves and point to Heaven after every hit.

That I'm not 24 and hot and single and living in Cincinnati.

KittyDuran
04-06-2004, 08:31 PM
That I'm not 24 and hot and single and living in Cincinnati. Sigh... :( AMEN!!! :evil:

MWM
04-06-2004, 09:04 PM
d

SteelSD
04-06-2004, 09:12 PM
Cell phones in movie theaters.

Asking for extra butter and getting less.

Buying a beer at a ballpark when you could have had a 6-pack at home for less.

Realizing that it's better to be at the game after you buy the 6-pack.

Watching the 6-pack gain on you.

Three year passes on player performance due to injury, but bat-by-bat indictments of young players.

Houston's infactuation with Brad Ausmus.

Pitchers who get ahead 0-2 and then Walk the guy.

Where's my dang butter on this stinking popcorn???? Arrrrrrrrghhhhh!

When my wife calls me upstairs to tell me something she could have come downstairs to relay. Communication should not be an endurance sport.

Jeff Foxworthy.

Players who take all day to lollygag to the Outfield. Ditto with home run trots (excusing Dave Parker of course).

Passed balls.

"Tweaks" that turn into strains that turn into sprains that turn into tears.

People on the interstate who mistake speed zone minimums for maximums.

Kids who bump into you in a mall who feel that the words "excuse me" are optional.

Parents who raised aforementioned kids.

The 7th inning stretch. If I'd have wanted to stretch, I'd have taken up yoga. Play some damn baseball.

Todd Van Poppel.

The need to build a ballpark to generate the revenue to compete and then taking an operating loss while cutting payroll.

Lawn gnomes.

KittyDuran
04-06-2004, 09:33 PM
Wow, some good ones! :thumbup: I'll add one from another thread... :evil:

I don't mind complaining - Redszone is a good place for that - misery loves company. :) But when there is a problem and there is a means to get an answer to said problem, I find it very annoying (Sorry Chip, sweetie - see cups thread). I sent an email to the Marketing Dept. about last year's cups dying to use the word "cheap" instead I settled for "cutting corners". (of course, the response caused more complaining). But if I was at OD I would have went to Customer Service and ask for an explanation - no matter how silly it made me feel.

Raisor
04-06-2004, 09:38 PM
spiders

Chip R
04-06-2004, 09:39 PM
Players who take all day to lollygag to the Outfield.What does that make them?!

wheels
04-06-2004, 09:40 PM
The 7th inning stretch. If I'd have wanted to stretch, I'd have taken up yoga. Play some damn baseball.


You hate the seventh inning stretch?

Where is your SOUL, man?!

:MandJ:

Raisor
04-06-2004, 09:40 PM
What does that make them?!

ones that lollygag?

SteelSD
04-06-2004, 09:50 PM
You hate the seventh inning stretch?

Where is your SOUL, man?!

:MandJ:

Sorry, wheels. That one is bourne of having to listen to Harry Carey spit through the song on WGN broadcasts.

If I wanted to see old drunk people, I'd have watched the game at the local pool hall...or spiked my great grandmother's ensure.

:mhcky21:

wheels
04-06-2004, 09:52 PM
I'll give you that, sir!

KittyDuran
04-06-2004, 09:55 PM
What does that make them?! Those darn LOLLYGAGS or LOLLYGAGGERS!!! :lol:

lollygag
SYLLABICATION: lol·ly·gag
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: ll-gg KEY
VARIANT FORMS: also lal·ly·gag (ll-)
INTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: lol·ly·gagged, lol·ly·gag·ging, lol·ly·gags
To waste time by puttering aimlessly; dawdle.
ETYMOLOGY: Origin unknown.

Chip R
04-06-2004, 09:58 PM
Those darn LOLLYGAGS or LOLLYGAGGERS!!! :lol: Lollygaggers! :mad:

westofyou
04-06-2004, 10:33 PM
I am annoyed by those who belittle others with their perceived superior knowledge of the art and science of evaluating baseball players.

Shoot I'm annoyed with being called a geek every summer... but I get by.

There was a great article on BP's site by a new writer named Steve Goldman, despite being a Yankee fan he has some good stuff.

I don't post whole articles usually but this one is worth it.


http://premium.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2740

April 05, 2004
You Could Look It Up
Backlash


by Steven Goldman
Printer-
friendly
Contact
Author


1: WHO WROTE SHAKESPEARE'S PLAYS?

In 1937, George and Ira Gershwin wrote a song for the Fred Astaire-Ginger Rogers picture Shall We Dance that was an instant classic satire of the human need to scoff at the merest hint of progress:

They all laughed at Christopher Columbus
When he said the world was round;
They all laughed when Edison recorded sound…

They all laughed at Rockefeller Center
Now they're fighting to get in;
They all laughed at Whitney and his cotton gin.

Just as Terry Cashman rewrote the lyrics of "Talkin' Baseball: Willie, Mickey, and the Duke" for just about every franchise in the game (right down to the Rangers version, "Talkin' Baseball: Buddy, Sunny, and the Scoop"--my cat's favorite version because he loves Texas and a clean litter box), there should be an edition of the Gershwin song for baseball, one of the most reactionary of institutions. As a culture, as an institution, from the inside of the commissioner's office to the lowliest beat writer, baseball fears change and always has. "Fear springs always," said Ralph Waldo Emerson, "from ignorance." Actually, fear sometimes springs from being chased by an enraged grizzly bear, but in general Emerson's point stands.

Night baseball was a travesty. "High-class baseball cannot be played under artificial lights," said ossified Senators owner Clark Griffith in the 1930s. The farm system was "raping the minors." Radio broadcasts were thought to be a threat to attendance, so the American League banned them for a while, and even after the league relented, the three New York City teams actually signed a five-year ban. Integration would not work for a million and a half reasons too disgusting to relate here--the most repulsive of them, probably also the most seductive to the pasty white magnates of the 1940s, was Yankees front man Larry MacPhail's formulation that African-American stars would equal more African-Americans in the stands which would cause fewer Caucasians to come to the games which would mean decreasing franchise values.

The list goes on: The Pacific Coast League had to evolve into a de facto major league before there was a franchise west of the Mississippi. Free agency would destroy the game. "Without a reserve system," former commissioner Bowie Kuhn wrote in his autobiography, "our vast array of minor leagues would hardly survive… It was not hard to imagine that we could even lose a major league."

Nowhere has the baseball establishment's ostrich-like qualities been more evident than in the continued reaction to the now year-old book Moneyball, Michael Lewis' look at the operations of the Oakland A's front office under the management of Billy Beane. The reception to the book has at times been downright bizarre, including the confused dismissals like those of ESPN's Joe Morgan, who repeatedly insisted that Billy Beane should not have written a book extolling his own genius despite the fact Beane was neither the book's author nor its instigator. Beane cannot be found within its pages cackling like Lex Luthor about how he's smarter than the entire Detroit Tigers organization put together and Dusty Baker too. Yet as recently as this February, a columnist with the Long Beach Press-Telegram perpetuated the myth, writing: "Oakland's Billy Beane has done a terrific job with modest funds with the A's, but he's also a shameless self-promoter who wrote a book about his imagined genius and is despised by scouts around baseball."

2: KULTURKAMPF

Many of those critics who actually read the book--or seem to have read it--have frothed as if they were members of some baseball version of HUAC circa 1950. The book has given birth to a retrograde, reactionary movement, all of it provoked by its important but less than revolutionary point: In a money-scarce environment, a business must maximize its chances. A good way to do this is to improve your intelligence-gathering operation, then start looking for opportunities the well-heeled operations might have missed.

Moneyball is not Thomas Paine's Common Sense, inciting a people to rebellion. It isn't Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin or Charles Darwin's Origin of Species; yet we have our own counterrevolution promoted by the establishment. Recent favorites: In mid-March, New York Times columnist Selena Roberts hacked and mocked her way through a piece on Beane and Moneyball, including this car accident of a paragraph:

At 42, Beane didn't invent sabermetrics, a sci-fi word formed from S.A.B.R., the Society of American Baseball Research [sic] (a k a The No-Life Institute). But with its philosophy filtered through his Ivy League predecessor in Oakland, Sandy Alderson, Beane applies the tenets of numeric efficiency found in the stapled baseball abstracts of the 70's fringe writer Bill James.
We'll skip the enumeration of the flaws in the above--"fringe writer" James has sold an awful lot of books, for one--and move right to the easy anti-intellectualism of that "No-Life Institute" crack. Think back to grade school. What's the first thing the dumb kids say to the smart kids to belittle them? They call them geeks, nerds, freaks. Anti-intellectualism is the last P.C. prejudice--certainly the Times would not allow one of its writers to refer to "The Urban League (aka The No-Whites Institute)"--and it's an easy way of mocking an idea without really addressing it.

ESPN.com's Rob Neyer pointed out another example just a few days ago, a St. Louis columnist who appealed to the sentimentalists among us to pity the now-endangered scouts, as if they were some tribe of pygmies being relocated to make way for a new Wal-Mart:

But this awkward adaptation to "Moneyball" is foolishly compromising these men and dissolving this time-honored culture. The new trend in baseball is to trim scouting staff while making room for the technical operatives. That is cause for alarm.
When said columnist responded to Neyer, he suggested that Neyer put away the "Beane/Bill James badge" and, rising to a crescendo of bad taste, thanked Neyer for "all the e-mail from the stats Nazis."

Finally, there is this passage from a Publisher's Weekly article from last week, in which a book editor hyped his new offering on the New York Mets with an allusion to the sabermetric/Moneyball culture:

The '86 Mets are arguably the last of the great hell-raisers. They stand as a rambunctious reminder that baseball was a lot more fun before the SABR-metrics [sic] freaks took over.
We're back on the playground.

3: ANY SUFFICIENTLY ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY IS INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC.

"Sabermetrics" applies to a wide area of study, a good deal of which has nothing to do with Billy Beane and Moneyball. Some of the hostility the book has received is due to misreading; if not read closely it can easily be misconstrued as a Beane hagiography. The source for the anti-intellectual sentiment cited above is harder to pin down, but is ultimately traceable to a knee-jerk reaction by the mainstream baseball press to being deprived of their "expertise" by the smartypants sabermetricians. Despite years of following the game, they were being told, in effect, that they didn't know enough, or that what they knew--about RBI, stolen bases, about the very qualities that made good ballplayers--was just plain wrong.

Feeling threatened, they struck back. Tragically, the counterrevolution is based on a misunderstanding. The A's' focus on on-base percentage is entirely compatible with old-school subjective observation. Each method of inquiry informs the other, providing team decision-makers with a more complete picture of a player. Statistics are an objective record of a ballplayer's performances. Interpreted adroitly, statistics can provide an informative, sight-unseen picture of a player; a young pitcher's strikeout rate, for instance, is a powerful indicator of his future prospects. There is a great deal, though, that numbers cannot tell you, which is where subjective, first-hand observation comes in.

Numbers may tell you that a pitcher had a 1.50 ERA last year, but they don't tell you that he throws across his body, his neck may snap with every pitch, he's aroused by underage livestock, his personal habits are so bad that like the colonial terrorist Nathaniel Bacon he may be devoured from within by his own body lice, and whenever a runner reaches third his he loses control of his curve and his bladder. You need an experienced scout to tell you that, and you always will.

Moneyball gives the 2002 amateur draft as an example of these two forms of analysis in conflict, but in reality their complementary relationship goes back to the beginning of time. Due to an ill-timed injury in 1934, some scouts advised their teams to take a pass on Joe DiMaggio. Here were the two competing inputs teams faced when the Clipper was a 20-year-old with the San Francisco Seals:

Performance analysis: "He's hitting .350 with a ton of doubles and homers."
Scouting: "Forget it. He's got a bad knee."

That's where the discussion ended for a lot of teams, but the Yankees continued the conversation.

Performance analysis: "Yeah, but even with the bad knee he's hitting like crazy. There must be more to this story. Go get a second opinion."
Scouting [after heading out to the coast for another look]: "Forget the bleeping knee and sign this guy in a hurry."

Statistics are a tool, not unlike a microscope. Statistics are a hammer, a speculum, a thermometer. A statistics-based approach to understanding of baseball is one of many paths to knowledge of the game. Calling those who take that path "freaks" or "Nazis" makes as much sense as calling a Ph.D. chemist a wimp because he tests the qualities of his cyanide compound by means of Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy rather than just drinking the thing.

4: LIES, DAMNED LIES, WITHOUT STATISTICS

Unfortunately, the reaction has put many baseball writers in the untenable position of denying facts that are probably true. The vastly overstated Beane/Moneyball/sabermetric bias against scouting is a red herring, as is the macho derision of sabermetricians. The truth is, while statistics provide the evidence for most of the new theories of the game, most of the ideas advocated by the so-called statheads can be explained by plain old common sense. Over in the Pinstriped Bible about a year and a half ago, I attempted to summarize what I had learned in 20 years of following baseball in the form of 19 "commandments." Let's revisit a few of those now and see if we can justify them in the most simplistic way possible, without resorting to "freaky" sabermetric weirdness--that is, no "advanced" stats, no math, which I can't do anyway:

It's how often a player reaches base that's important, not batting average, not RBI.
Baseball doesn't have a clock in the sense that football or basketball does, but it has outs, 27 of them, and each one an offense spends brings the game closer to extinction. The players who reach base most often are the ones most likely to put off the inevitable death of the offensive effort. The more your players get on base, the more your players get a chance to hit, meaning you score more runs.

Remember league and position averages: numbers have meaning only in context.
Hypothetical season: the Anaheim Angels' first baseman hit .275 and slugged .440. That seems pretty good, until you realize that the American League as a whole hit .277 and slugged .445, and that American League first basemen in particular hit .295 and slugged. 500. The Yankees often endured this problem with Tino Martinez. Baseball is, among other things, a game of matchups, of 'my first baseman is better than your first baseman.' It's not enough that your first baseman answers to an amorphous definition of "good"; where he ranks in the class is most important.

RBI are opportunistic; RBI are a team stat and are not indicative of a player's ability.
In 1985 Don Mattingly had a great year. The Yankees often batted Rickey Henderson first and Mattingly second. Henderson was having an even better year than Mattingly, reaching base 42% of the time and putting himself in scoring position constantly thanks to his 28 doubles, five triples, and 80 stolen bases--the last of which cost the Yankees only 10 caught stealing. At his peak, Henderson was the rare player where the rewards of stealing handily outweighed the risks. Hitting .324/.371/.567 behind this on-base dynamo, Mattingly drove in 145 runs and won the MVP award.

The next year, Mattingly was even better, improving his numbers to .352/.394/.573. Oddly, he drove in 32 fewer runs. The problem was Henderson, who saw his OBP drop to .358 in 1986, meaning he was on base less often. Better Mattingly + Worse Henderson = fewer RBI opportunities for Mattingly. If RBI were an expression of a player's ability, we should hold the shortfall against Mattingly despite his being better than the year before. That doesn't make much sense.

Stolen bases don't matter all that much.
Wade Boggs was a terrific leadoff hitter stealing two bases a year. Vince Coleman, a contemporary, was nearly useless stealing 100 a year. Rickey Henderson and Tim Raines would have been among the best players in baseball had they never stolen a base in their careers. Boggs, Henderson, and Raines all "manufactured" runs, to use a term favored by the conservatives, by finding ways to get to first base. Coleman couldn't get to first base at the Annual Cotillion for Semi-Inebriated Cheerleaders Who Are Really, Really Turned On By Ballplayers. Speed is value-added in a player, but not in and of itself a reason to put someone in the lineup (see Endy Chavez).

Then there's the home-run era that we've been living in more or less continuously since 1920. Say your team has a runner on first base in a game at Coors Field. Most often, there is really very little to be gained by having your runner attempt to move up one base, at the possible cost of a caught stealing, when the next hitter has every chance to hit the next pitch out of the ballpark.

If you're playing at Pac Bell, where everyone except Barry Bonds has trouble hitting for power, then the stolen base becomes more valuable--but that's what pinch-runners are for.

The main function of the batting order is to distribute plate appearances.
Over the course of a season, the leadoff hitter is going to bat more often than the number-two hitter, the number-two hitter is going to bat more often than the number-three hitter, and so on, and the leadoff hitter is going to bat a lot more often than the number-nine hitter. If you make Neifi Perez your everyday leadoff hitter, he is going to play more than any other player on your roster, including Barry Bonds. We leave the question as to whether that's a good idea or not up to you.

A strikeout is just another out.
Each batter is presented with fewer opportunities to advance a runner from second to third with a grounder than you might think. Each hitter gets fewer chances to hit a sac fly than it appears. There are, however, quite a lot of opportunities to hit into a double play. These things tend to come out in the wash. In any case, strikeouts correlate with power. That's your trade-off for home runs. Mickey Mantle used to regret the number of times he struck out, but he also said that if he hit like Pete Rose he would wear a dress. That's a pretty good summary of the trade-off inherent in cutting strikeouts.

Placing good bats on the right side of the defensive spectrum is one of the keys to winning.
It's that 'my shortstop is better than your shortstop' thing again. It's harder to find a good hitter that can play up the middle than it is, say, a right fielder. Take two teams at random, both run competently. Both are going to have right fielders and first basemen that are roughly comparable, but only one is going to have Derek Jeter at short. At the tail end of their championship run, the Yankees were getting relatively poor production from all four corners. They so outdistanced the competition at catcher, short, center field, and (sometimes) second base that they won anyway.

The 27 outs of a ballgame are precious. Managers should not give them away lightly.
Again, each ballgame has a life of exactly 27 outs. Bunting away outs is a bit like smoking cigarettes--you're hastening the end. The sacrifice bunt is a tactical tool. You deploy it when it's obvious that it will win you a ballgame. Some managers make a fetish of it, failing to recognize that even their worst hitter--Einar Diaz, say--has a 30% chance of reaching base, thus prolonging an inning long enough for a real hitter to come to the plate. When the bunt sign is on, that chance drops from 30 to zero.

A player's offensive and defensive contributions must be in balance.
Over the course of the season, your great defensive shortstop saves 10 more runs that the average shortstop would have missed but creates 15 fewer runs with the bat than that same average shortstop does. You're down five runs.

The odds are on the closer's side.
In most cases, the difference between the best and worst closers in terms of save percentage is quite small. That's because with only three outs to get, a closer has a tremendous advantage. Tony Gwynn comes to bat against Dickie Noles. Against the league, Tony is hitting .350. Against Dickie, he's a .450 hitter, which is to say that Dickie still gets him out 55% of the time.

5: DON'T SMOKE A HUNGRY TIGER AND OTHER OBVIOUS SURVIVAL TIPS

There's nothing complicated in the passages above. It's simple, common-sense stuff like, "don't have a picnic in a war zone" or "the polar bear at the zoo is not gesturing for you to climb into his cage." This is the great secret of Moneyball and of sabermetrics: Keep your eyes open and see the obvious. When gathering intelligence, shelve your biases, forget your inherited wisdom, and listen without prejudice.

If you can do it with a flashlight, great. If you can do it with the Hubbell space telescope, swell. If you do it with statistics you're going to be mocked, but the ideas are still valid. The cosmic joke of the backlash is that no one has yet attacked sabermetrics on its merits. Those of us who work with performance analysis tools know that we rule the stats, the stats don't rule us. The same cannot be said for our critics.

Raisor
04-06-2004, 10:40 PM
Great article. I hope everyone takes the time to read it.

SteelSD
04-06-2004, 10:44 PM
woy,

That was an incredible article. Thank you for posting it.

Chip R
04-06-2004, 10:50 PM
Great article, WOY.

RFS62
04-06-2004, 11:02 PM
Indeed, that was a great article.

I think the thing that annoys me most is the way that a lot of sabemetric advocates (Michael Lewis, for instance) love to characterize anyone from the "old school" as a tobacco chewing neanderthal. The next most annoying thing to me is the way a lot of "traditionalists" like to return the favor by calling sabermetric advocates "nerds and geeks who never played the game".

Both sides love baseball. Both sides want to know as much as they can about the game.

Spirited debate doesn't have to descend into name calling and bad feelings about the game we love.

When you stop learning, and wanting to learn, you're done.

MWM
04-06-2004, 11:18 PM
That could be the best article writtne on the subject. I especilly agree with the following towards the end:
The cosmic joke of the backlash is that no one has yet attacked sabermetrics on its merits. . So True.


The book has given birth to a retrograde, reactionary movement, all of it provoked by its important but less than revolutionary point: In a money-scarce environment, a business must maximize its chances. A good way to do this is to improve your intelligence-gathering operation, then start looking for opportunities the well-heeled operations might have missed.
A great summary of the "why" of sabermetrics. Hard to understand why anyone would shun such a common sense idea.


The A's' focus on on-base percentage is entirely compatible with old-school subjective observation. Each method of inquiry informs the other, providing team decision-makers with a more complete picture of a player. Statistics are an objective record of a ballplayer's performances. Interpreted adroitly, statistics can provide an informative, sight-unseen picture of a player; a young pitcher's strikeout rate, for instance, is a powerful indicator of his future prospects. There is a great deal, though, that numbers cannot tell you, which is where subjective, first-hand observation comes in.
But alas, many will continue to argue that the "stat geeks" look ONLY at numbers and forget about anything else. Why would someone NOT want to know MORE about a player?

redsfan4445
04-06-2004, 11:30 PM
hmmmm lets see... what annoys me the most about the Reds???
1) knowing ownership has no clue on what it takes to win EACH season instead of some ficticious future they talk about down the road !!
2) Carl Linder
3) JOhn Allen lies about "Not throwing in the towel"
4) Reds ownership that thinks Reds fans will just go to games to look at the darn GAB!! because its so beautiful
5) Reds ownership that follows the Pirates, Tigers, Brewers plans of opening of a new tax paid park..(wish we had the Phillies and Padres owners.. they saw LOSING doesnt bring fannies to the games!!)
6)Knowing by July 31st, "AAA team the Sequel" will be playing at GAB for the rest of the season
7) Knowing by Kearns and Dunn's arbitration date, they will be traded to the Yankees or Red Soxs, because ownership cant afford them like the Cards can afford Puhols (without a new park being built for them by the Cards fans as of now)
8)Knowing a losing team and slipping attendance, our Reds owners will raise ticket prices and 2005 will be just like 2003, 2004, 2006, etc....)
9) Knowing our ownership and FO types NEVER mention Winning the World Series as a goal before the season starts!!!
10) Knowing that I as well as others on this board try to have hope and faith in the Reds and the Reds ownership has no hope or desire to Win!!!
11) Knowing I am following what the Bengals are doing in the offseason and knowing the Reds will have to pull off a HUGE miracle to finish above 3rd this season as well as down the road of many more seasons!! :(
12) Hoping CArl gets the hint to sell before he looses a ton of money when trying to sell a AAA team in a MLB park!!
13) With all the bashing of JR. and his contract (which is a bargain compared to others!!), knowing we will never see a superstar EVER sign with the Reds or even agree to a trade to the Reds

Austin_Kearns
04-06-2004, 11:49 PM
David Justice doing color commentary. That is easily the most annoying thing on the planet. He makes Tim McCarver seem concise, pithy, and insightful.


I don't agree on that Dennis Miller is the most annoying announcer EVER!!!

MWM
04-06-2004, 11:55 PM
David Justice doing color commentary. That is easily the most annoying thing on the planet. He makes Tim McCarver seem concise, pithy, and insightful.

Rick Sutcliffe might have something to say about that. He's almost ready to join the list of McCarver and Billy Packer as the worst commentators in any sport.

BoydsOfSummer
04-07-2004, 12:01 AM
Great article. He's "preaching to the choir" with me. I've been a believer for 15 years or so. Outs bad...on base good. Still love a stolen base more than I should though. Love those high OBP guys with wheels.

red-in-la
04-07-2004, 12:03 AM
Annoying:

1. Reds fans who say we have to wait until the Reds are 25 games under .500 before we can say they are a bad team. We are allowed no historical reference....just because everybody starts out 0-0 means all teams are equal.....this frustrates me in a humorous way.

2. Being forced to learn what runs created and OPS means. Don't get me wrong, I am happy that my fellow posters have taught me new ways to appreciate the game, but just like learning my first computer, I was still PO'd while I was learning it.

3. Realizing that MWM (in his first post) was describing my dear departed Dad.

4. The fact that I hated the JR trade 2 month before it was made, and I still hate it, and there is nothing I can do about it but moan.

Cedric
04-07-2004, 12:09 AM
MWM you are a Michigan fan? How terribly disgusting.

Michigan fans and Lloyd Carr are the most annoying things on the planet.

To keep this baseball related I will say Rick Sutcliffe is the most annoying PERSON on the planet, much less announcer.

westofyou
04-07-2004, 12:28 AM
MWM you are a Michigan fan? How terribly disgusting.

Michigan fans and Lloyd Carr are the most annoying things on the planet.

To keep this baseball related I will say Rick Sutcliffe is the most annoying PERSON on the planet, much less announcer.

I'll take that as a compliment.

Most annoying thing on the planet?

My ex GF's drunk OSU Grad father after UM kicked OSU's butt........ I'd go on but I wouldn't want to annoy ya. :lol:

MWM
04-07-2004, 12:32 AM
3. Realizing that MWM (in his first post) was describing my dear departed Dad.

OK. Steel has talked some sense into me and I've decided to just assume you meant nothing personal with that comment. But that comment could very easily be taken to be a low blow in my direction (saying I was describing your father).

MWM
04-07-2004, 12:37 AM
MWM you are a Michigan fan? How terribly disgusting.


I'm a huge fan of the school, definitely. It's a fantastic institution of higher learning. plus they have a "hash bash" every year.

SteelSD
04-07-2004, 12:40 AM
MWM, please back away from the ledge.

Normally, I'm the guy with the hot head, but I'm certain that rila didn't mean that as a slight considering the props he's given to the "SABR" crew.

You might consider that his "annoyance" is that his father is no longer with us, and that the "batting average" reference was simply a reminder of that.

Johnny Footstool
04-07-2004, 01:06 AM
I think it's funny that the a lot of the so-called "traditional" crowd memorize and use stats just as much as the so-called "stats" crowd. They just use a different group of stats (BA, RBI, SB, etc.).

We're all geeks at heart.

red-in-la
04-07-2004, 01:53 AM
OK. Steel has talked some sense into me and I've decided to just assume you meant nothing personal with that comment. But that comment could very easily be taken to be a low blow in my direction (saying I was describing your father).

Please MWM, take no offense...I meant none. It is just that at this time of year I miss my Dad the most. He was a Reds fan since 1937 until he died in October of 2000.

But he was just exactly what you described. Every chance he got he complained that the whole game was rigged to make sure the Reds lost....and every time a Red struck out or hit into a DP he wanted the guy traded or released before he got back to the dugout.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my Dad and he was a wonderful guy and a die hard Reds fan. But he was also cynical and quick to scream at HIS players.

I know a lot of that rubbed off on me and it shows sometimes in my posts.....but I try to fight it. :help:

MWM
04-07-2004, 09:00 AM
I must apologize now. When I read your post I was thinking about my post saying people who use batting average to evaluate players, because when I said it, it was meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If I had bothred looking it up, I would have realized you were referring to the post about people who live and die by every pitch. Had I realized you were referring to that post, I would have never thought anything was intended by it. I probably would have chuckled a little. At the time I thought it was meant as a SABR/traditionalist jab. Sorry for the overreaction. Yesterday was a long day and I was probably a little "on tilt" as they say in Poker.

GAC
04-07-2004, 09:06 AM
Overreacting to one game!

I was at BW3 for the first 4 innings yesterday. There was guy in there at the table next to mine who lived and died by every single pitch. If there was a borderline ball/strike called in the Cubs favor, he was swearing. If a Reds batter swung and missed, he was hitting the table. On one of the double play balls, you would have thought we just lost the 7th game of the world series. I can't understand how it's fun to be a fan and be wound that tight about it.

EXACTLY! :thumbup:

If following the game of baseball causes that type of reaction from you on a continuous level, then IMO, you need to find another hobby (if that is what you would call it :MandJ: ).

Something less stressful, like working on a bomb detonation squad. :roll:

RedsBaron
04-07-2004, 09:40 AM
WOY-great article. Great points on the Mattingly-Henderson seasons of 1985-86 and the the evaluation of DiMaggio as a minor league prospect.

westofyou
04-07-2004, 10:40 AM
BP radio has a download (mp3) of the radio show where Michael Lewis squares off with Tracy Ringlosby.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/radio/

Earlier Lewis wrote this in SI

Here is Lewis' reaction to Tracy Ringolsby's brusque dismissal of the book. For Ringolsby:

The problem wasn't just that Beane's ego was out of control. It was that the author of Moneyball "has a limited knowledge of baseball and a total infatuation with Billy Beane."

A limited knowledge of baseball--it sounds damning enough, but what does it mean? It doesn't mean that there's some distinct body of insider knowledge that he has mastered, or if it does, Ringolsby produces no evidence of it. It cannot mean the knowledge that might only come from playing the game, for he himself never got beyond Babe Ruth baseball. And it most certainly does not mean that he has some special understanding of what these people in Oakland are up to, because he has shown scant interest in interviewing them. Think of it! A guy who makes his living writing about baseball, working himself into a fine lather about Billy Beane's radical experiment in Oakland and never, according to Beane himself, asking for an explanation. A limited knowledge of baseball: What it means, so far as I can tell, is that Ringolsby is just another guy who's assigned himself the job of barring people from the game who, in his view, have no business inside. He's not a writer. He's a bouncer.

Lewis concludes:

But he has his own moment, this fellow. When he sits down to write his column he knows in his heart that he speaks for a lot of people who work just off the field of play. He may belong only to the women's auxiliary of the Club, but his views of the game reflect those of the actual members. A lot of people who make the decisions about building baseball teams think the way he does. That's why it's possible for a team with no money to win so many games.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Raisor
04-07-2004, 10:43 AM
I'm just sorry that that BP article won't fit in my sig.

Can we work on that mods?
:mhcky21:

RedsBaron
04-07-2004, 10:47 AM
I read Lewis's article in SI, loved it, and put a copy of it inside my copy of Moneyball.
Joe Morgan comes off poorly in Lewis's article as well. I loved Joe as a player, I believe he is the greatest secondbaseman ever, but he's really made some dumb comments about Moneyball. It is ironic because as a player Joe Morgan was exactly the type of player Billy Beane and Bill James would particularly value. Even when Morgan didn't hit .300, he had a very high OBP and was a high percentage basestealer.

Ohioballplayer
04-07-2004, 11:34 AM
What annoys me most, the ol' bait-n-switch but Uncle Karl, man we pay for a new stadium after being pressured to build it for him, he promises us product, and we get nothing in return, in short, Uncle Karl bothers me the most, and it annoys me to think, GAWD, I cannot wait til the Bengals play.

westofyou
04-07-2004, 11:38 AM
What annoys me most, the ol' bait-n-switch but Uncle Karl, man we pay for a new stadium after being pressured to build it for him, he promises us product, and we get nothing in return, in short, Uncle Karl bothers me the most, and it annoys me to think, GAWD, I cannot wait til the Bengals play.

Marge owned the team when the tax increase passed. As for the "we" isn't that inclusive to the Hamilton County population base? And isn't Eastgate in Claremont County? ;)

TeamCasey
04-07-2004, 11:42 AM
It isn't property tax, it's sales tax. It isn't where you live, but where you spend.

westofyou
04-07-2004, 11:57 AM
It isn't property tax, it's sales tax. It isn't where you live, but where you spend.

Yes, but how many people in the eastgate area do their retail spending outside that mess at 32 and 275?

Dan
04-07-2004, 11:58 AM
I think the thing that annoys me the most out of all is when it is suggested that because player X was in a similar situation or put up similar minor league numbers or had a simliar season to player Y, player Y will perform in the future the way player X did.

erm, basically, the past performance of one player does not accurately predict the future performance of another player

westofyou
04-07-2004, 12:01 PM
I think the thing that annoys me the most out of all is when it is suggested that because player X was in a similar situation or put up similar minor league numbers or had a simliar season to player Y, player Y will perform in the future the way player X did.

erm, basically, the past performance of one player does not accurately predict the future performance of another player

Personally I have a hard time using MLB comps with ML stats, but I believe that MLB stats after a certain amount of PA's can give fairly qualified comps.

HUHUH
04-07-2004, 01:25 PM
1) I agree with Traderumor. The way most managers handle bullpens is a joke. I was soooooo sick of Bob Boone last year (of course he was consistent. Not only did he micromanage the bullpen, but everything else as well!). I was hoping for a change from Miley. But noooooo, yank the starter after 5, and go with one pitcher per inning (at a minimum!) from there on out. "Well, we've got so and so to pitch the sixth, and such and such to pitch the seventh, and then we get to our setup guy, and then bring in the closer in the ninth. Isn't there a freakin manager with some imagination? Remember how McKeown handled the Reds bullpen? If a guy was throwing well he'd let him pitch a couple of innings. He didn't have a closer, but used whoever was throwing the best. I miss that guy. I will say this, however; Miley (or ANYONE for that matter) will be a breath of fresh air after Bob Boone. He was the worst.

2) Crashing into a wall, getting hit by a pitch, running into someone in the field. Those are legitimate ways to get injured. But all of these "pulled hammies" and "strained this and thats" are a joke. Guys get hurt running to first base. RUNNING TO FIRST BASE! 90 FEET! What the ? is going on?

3) No imagination when it comes to a batting order. Why, for example, should your cleanup hitter be the guy with the most power? I posted this question a few years back, and the best response I got was "In case you have a runner on with 2 outs in the first inning, then you'll have the best chance to get a 2 run homer". HUH? That is lame. The traditional order (speed at leadoff, a good bat handler second, your best hitter third, etc...) is just that, a tradition.

traderumor
04-07-2004, 02:10 PM
I also like that article, WOY. Honestly, that was not at all intended for you if I can clear that up. But as RFS so eloquently pointed out, the condescending remarks to the "unenlightened" or stubborn, as the case may be, are all too frequent which is a primary reason for the rift. That is all I was getting at with my comment. So many times someone will make a "traditionalist" error such as the remark about BA in this thread and those who are heavily involved in sabermetrics will make condescending remarks that go something like "do I have to explain this again" and make the person feel like an idiot instead of patiently explaining their superior knowledge to the poor, uninitiated poster that stumbled across this humble little forum. That is annoying.

GAC
04-08-2004, 10:12 AM
Great article. I hope everyone takes the time to read it.

READ IT! Why, a 6 year old child could understand it (QUICK- someone run out and find me a 6 yr old, because I sure as hell can't make "heads or tales" of this!!! )

:roll: