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TeamBoone
05-25-2004, 11:43 PM
May 25, 2004
SportsLine.com wire reports

CINCINNATI -- Ken Griffey Jr. let the glare speak for itself.

Griffey stared angrily into the Florida Marlins' dugout after he rounded third base on his 492nd career Tuesday night, a three-run shot that sent the surging Cincinnati Reds to a 5-2 victory and left some feelings ruffled.

For the third time in five days, an opposing manager chose to intentionally walk Sean Casey, the NL's leading hitter, to get to Griffey with a game on the line.

The All-Century outfielder evidently is taking it personally.

"Junior has a tendency to respond well to criticism and controversy and challenges," said shortstop Barry Larkin, who also homered. "Walking the guy in front of him is definitely a challenge."

Griffey also has a tendency to avoid reporters after a high-profile game, and did so on Tuesday.

The glare had everybody else talking.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/recap/MLB_20040525_FLA@CIN

red-in-la
05-25-2004, 11:47 PM
I saw the game, and I would not call his stare angry.....it was more of a "take that" look and according to Gammons, it was pointed directly AT trader Jack.

I do NOT think JR would stare at another ballplayer....as that seems to be taboo. But I think he really likes taking it to McKeon's attempt at strategy.

What I LOVED about this AB was the way JR swung. The bend the knees as he strides is JR 6-7 years ago. If he has THAT part of his game going again, we could be looking at an MVP type performance from him.

letsgojunior
05-25-2004, 11:49 PM
Beckett seems to be ticked about it.

Beckett didn't see the glare, either, but was upset when told about it.

"I'm glad you told me that," he said. "I didn't see it. I do take offense to that."

Beckett said he didn't care "if he's a Hall of Famer or not. I don't think I'll forget it. I don't know what he's staring at."

TeamBoone
05-25-2004, 11:54 PM
GAME DAY RECAP Tuesday, May 25
Griffey Makes Marlins Pay for Walking Casey

CINCINNATI (AP) -- Ken Griffey Jr. let the glare speak for itself.

Griffey stared angrily into the Florida Marlins' dugout after he rounded third base on his 492nd career homer Tuesday night, a three-run shot that sent the surging Cincinnati Reds to a 5-2 victory and left some feelings ruffled.

For the third time in five days, an opposing manager chose to intentionally walk Sean Casey, the NL's leading hitter, to get to Griffey with a game on the line.

The All-Century outfielder evidently is taking it personally.

"Junior has a tendency to respond well to criticism and controversy and challenges," said shortstop Barry Larkin, who also homered. "Walking the guy in front of him is definitely a challenge."

Griffey also has a tendency to avoid reporters after a high-profile game, and did so on Tuesday.

The glare had everybody else talking.

"That's something about Griff," said Casey, who is hitting .379. "He can turn on the switch when he gets angry."

He evidently was angry at Marlins manager Jack McKeon, who decided to have Josh Beckett face Griffey in the sixth inning with the game tied at 1. McKeon played the odds, figuring Beckett had a better chance of getting Griffey, who strikes out more than twice as often as Casey.

Plus, Griffey had never hit a homer off Beckett, the World Series MVP.

McKeon managed Griffey in Cincinnati in 2000, when he came to his hometown team in a trade. McKeon was fired after a second-place finish that year, and went on to lead the Marlins to a World Series title last season.

McKeon didn't see the glare and passed it off as a natural reaction to having someone intentionally walked.

"I think everybody would be (thinking): 'I'll fix you," McKeon said.

Beckett didn't see the glare, either, but was upset when told about it.

"I'm glad you told me that," he said. "I didn't see it. I do take offense to that."

Beckett said he didn't care "if he's a Hall of Famer or not. I don't think I'll forget it. I don't know what he's staring at."

Only Griffey knew for sure.

His third homer in three games kept Paul Wilson (7-0) on the best start of his career and extended the Reds' winning streak to seven games, their longest in two years. Cincinnati has the NL's best record at 27-18 after winning 10 of its last 11 games.

Larkin added a solo homer and a run-scoring single, helping the Reds hold onto first place in the NL Central for a second day.

Wilson, who has never had a winning record or more than eight victories in any season, joined Houston's Roger Clemens at 7-0 with another solid performance.

The right-hander gave up seven hits in seven innings, including Miguel Cabrera's tying RBI single in the sixth as a thunderstorm approached. Fans were urged to leave the exposed upper deck in the middle of the inning.

With heavy rain falling, Ryan Freel singled to open the Reds' sixth, then took second on Larkin's groundout. Casey was intentionally walked to bring up Griffey.

Beckett became the 310th pitcher to give up a homer to Griffey, who passed Fred McGriff into 21st place on the career list.

Houston manager Jimy Williams intentionally walked Casey twice to face Griffey during the Reds' recently completed four-game sweep. Griffey hit a tiebreaking RBI double in a 7-4 win on Friday, then grounded out in a sweep-clinching 7-5 victory on Monday night.

Wilson, 31, has been a cornerstone for the Reds' turnaround, evolving into their most dependable starter. He had never beaten the Marlins, going 0-3 with a 4.50 ERA in eight previous appearances.

Todd Jones pitched the ninth for his first save in four chances. Closer Danny Graves had pitched in five of the Reds' last six games.

Cabrera also had a run-scoring double in the eighth among his three hits. Mike Lowell added three doubles for the Marlins, tying the club record.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=240525117

LvJ
05-26-2004, 12:04 AM
Beckett sounds like a moron.

Rocket_Fuel
05-26-2004, 12:05 AM
The last time a pitcher called Ken Griffey Junior out they got lit up (Kris Benson). Beckett just needs to move along. If he has a problem with it he needs to take it up with his manager. He's the one that walked a guy to get to a sure fire Hall-of-Famer with near 500 HRs.

ChatterRed
05-26-2004, 12:07 AM
I was at work and heard only the Reds batting in the first and sixth innings. Glad I heard the 6th inning. It was fun listening to Marty Brenneman........the Marlins intentionally walked Casey and you could hear the crown booing in the background. Then Junior came to the plate and Marty was chattering about something unimportant and his voice rose 3 octaves! Long drive.......home run! (he said it was a home run before it left the park.....a no doubter). That was so exciting, especially on the first pitch! Sent chills up my spine. This team is fun!!!!!

jmcclain19
05-26-2004, 12:09 AM
Of course Beckett didn't see it. He was too busy licking his wounds from the ass whipping he just endured.

Any one read his interview in Maxim this month? Makes perfectly clear that Beckett is has a million dollar arm and a 10 cent head.

BrooklynRedz
05-26-2004, 12:19 AM
I think Griffey was responding to a bit more than the IBB. Didn't McKeon have some not-so-kind words for JR after he was fired?

WVSteveVT
05-26-2004, 12:27 AM
Beckett seems to be ticked about it.

Beckett didn't see the glare, either, but was upset when told about it.

"I'm glad you told me that," he said. "I didn't see it. I do take offense to that."

Beckett said he didn't care "if he's a Hall of Famer or not. I don't think I'll forget it. I don't know what he's staring at."

Beckett you moron, if it was so bad, how come no one in the dugout was upset enough by it to even mention it to you or at least be talking about it during the game. Seems to me this is being made an issue when it was probably nothing big, although I haven't seen it yet so I can't judge it for myself.

smith288
05-26-2004, 12:42 AM
Beckett you moron, if it was so bad, how come no one in the dugout was upset enough by it to even mention it to you or at least be talking about it during the game. Seems to me this is being made an issue when it was probably nothing big, although I haven't seen it yet so I can't judge it for myself.
It was pretty bad azz. It was very clear what Griffey was saying, though it wasnt to Beckett, it was to McKeon.

ramp101
05-26-2004, 01:07 AM
i love the fact Griffey glared at Jack

I cant get over how dumb that move was..... jeez

Cedric
05-26-2004, 01:12 AM
This is almost as good as Griffey grabbing his jock after banging one off Sparky Anderson's Tigers way back.

NDRed
05-26-2004, 01:17 AM
Gammons did a little bit on the Griffey v McKeon fued which, according to Gammons, dates back to the last game of the 2000 season when KGJ and Larkin left early and flew back to Florida. Apparently, McKeon embarrased KGJ by taking it to the press.

WVRedsFan
05-26-2004, 01:49 AM
Gammons did a little bit on the Griffey v McKeon fued which, according to Gammons, dates back to the last game of the 2000 season when KGJ and Larkin left early and flew back to Florida. Apparently, McKeon embarrased KGJ by taking it to the press.

Boys will be boys, but Assinine Jack better watch who he's dealing with. Same goes for Beckett. Do you think either of them would mess with Barry Bonds? No. I am so daggone, flippin, whatever glad that they let let Jack go some time ago. The ignoramus (I don't even know how to spell it) sleeps through most games and only with the talent he has at Florida is he even winning games. IF he made the decision to walk Casey to get to Junior, it has to be one of the bonehead moves of the year. Didn't he pay attention in the Houston series? Nope, he was probably looking a a few new cigars.

I hate what happened after Jack left, with you-know-who and all, but anyone, and I mean anyone can win with talent and a supportive front office.

Enough from me on Dipstick Jack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ramp101
05-26-2004, 01:56 AM
i can understand why he makes the move... i just think it was dumb

WVRedsFan
05-26-2004, 02:07 AM
i can understand why he makes the move... i just think it was dumb

Hey, Ramp. I know he was the manager when the Marlins won the Series last year, but how can you understand? I mean, Barry Bonds is in a slump, but would you walk to get to him? Mark McGwire? Why is Griffey the designated weak sister all of a sudden? His 11 homeruns is equal to Bonds. Why does everyone consider that McKeon is so smart? This same man took a team that was in contention in 1999, added Junior Griffey, and didn't have a prayer.

Sorry, but I really think without talent, this guy is clueless.

I will now censor myself (as my blood pressure rises)

top6
05-26-2004, 02:18 AM
why reds fans continue to say bad things about the last manager who led us to a winning season (and not just a winning month of may, as even bob boone was able to do) i will never understand. mckeon won when he was with the reds - boone hasn't, and i believe miley still has a losing record as reds manager.

oh, and then mckeon took over a marlins team in the middle of the season and led them to a world championship. i have a strange feeling he knows how to manage.

ramp101
05-26-2004, 02:39 AM
well WV, Griffey aint exactly tearing the cover off the ball in 04 is he now?

Sean Casey is having a sick year... I still hate the move but i kinda understand his logic

too bad Beckett decided to serve up a fatty...

jmcclain19
05-26-2004, 02:39 AM
Jack will always hold a soft spot for me, '99 was one of the most fun years to be a Reds fan in my lifetime and he was a major part of that.

Gixxer
05-26-2004, 03:07 AM
Call it a stare, glance, or look whatever word you think best fits JR’s actions tonight. Ever great athlete has a mean streak inside of them, some however show it more than others (lord knows Clemens, and Pedro have ran a fastball up and in on a number of occasions to establish dominance). Though I’d say JR was just showing a glimpse of having the swagger back from his early playing days.

Riverfront
05-26-2004, 04:46 AM
Jr didn't have to give em a stare, but he did. Big deal. It's not like he flipped them off. If it was me, I'd been smilin big time at them.

traderumor
05-26-2004, 07:05 AM
I happen to join WV in not being a McKeon admirer. I know he is a more recent memory of success, but folks are turning his short stay here into urban legend. He is given way too much credit for '99 and not given enough credit for the lackluster performance of the '00 team that added Griffey but barely finished with a winning record. If you want to talk about great managers around here, the first name out of one's mouth ought to be Sparky, not McKeon.

Williams and McKeon both are practicing percentages baseball without using their blasted heads. You would have thought the Marlins' scouts might have hinted that Griffey's numbers are climbing fast these days. But oh well, their moves have certainly benefitted us :thumbup: I really was expecting Griff to get whizzed inside his next AB though. I will give McKeon credit for not doing that, but then he might be waiting for a time when its not so obvious.

Raisor
05-26-2004, 07:10 AM
well WV, Griffey aint exactly tearing the cover off the ball in 04 is he now?




Junior
2004-
353 OBP
535 SLG
888 OPS

May 04
391 OPB
667 SLG
1.058 OPS

Yes, he's knocking the cover off the ball

RedFanAlways1966
05-26-2004, 08:03 AM
Okay... I am a huge Junior fan (please keep that in mind before reading on!).

Here's my take on the "stare thing"... it is not necessary. The point was made as soon as the ball went over the RF fence. The stare is not necessary. The only thing that would have been better is if Junior had not stared IMO. It makes me think of the old phrase "act like you've been there before". If I am the Marlins... the 1st time Junior bats tonight, I throw the 1st pitch near his head. Then I throw the 2nd pitch even closer to his head. You want to stare (glare?) at our manager, then get in the box and look out.

Mckeon went to the press on Junior? So what?!? Junior copped out early on his team. McKeon knew (thanks to brainiac Bowden) that his REDS days were done. McKeon also knew that he was not well received by Junior or Larkin (for whatever reason those two had). Leave early on your team? That takes more than nerve... it takes a huge ego. I do not care about renting a charter flight. Hey, there is always a chance for a rain delay. You took the chance (charter flight + rain delay) and you should have sucked it up and bit the bullet on the charter flight. Last game of the year or not... you get paid to be with the REDS team. What Junior did was wrong... w-r-o-n-g. If he hates Jack for that, then his psyche is even more fragile (screwed-up) than I ever thought. That whole thing was not Jack's fault... it was Junior's (& Larkin's). Then Jack goes public (buy telling the truth!!). So what? The REDS were giving him the shaft (as well as lark & Junior by their actions during most of Jack's last year w/ the REDS).

Junior needs to grow up (who Junior?) and get over things that happened 3 1/2 years ago. He caused that problem, not Jack. Junior is Junior. He has plenty of personality "issues". Junior had no reason to stare at Jack. Just run the bases, act like you've been there before and keep on hitting!!

smith288
05-26-2004, 08:12 AM
I dont really think it has anything to do with the past honestly, RFA. I think it has everything to do with the disrespect Griffey is getting even though his numbers just this month alone are becoming rather frightening for opposing teams.

It defies logic people would want to get to him rather than face Casey. It would be like asking to play Tiger Woods in a round of golf instead of Mickelson.

It would first of all, defy logic even though both are great players, Mickelson isnt Tiger Woods. Second of all, Tiger would feel slighted and probably give the glare Griffey gave after whooping up on you.

It also seems, RFA, you have some sort of deep seeded anamosity towards Griff that has nothing to do with this story and you just want to vent about Griff.

traderumor
05-26-2004, 08:15 AM
RFA,

Regardless of whether "the glare" was right or wrong, or leaving before the game was over (did the Reds discipline them? I don't recall, but that would be more important than McKeon's take on things), you don't know if that had even anything to do with it. Maybe there were several incidents over the course of the year that they were together that has created the bad blood. Maybe Griffey just wanted to gloat that he made another manager look like a fool for walking Casey ahead of him, again. I'm not saying you were the one with this opinion, but many have been clamoring for Griffey to show some emotion in his play, like slamming some water coolers after a strikeout or throwing his helmet, or kicking the dog when he gets home, I dunno. Now that he does, do we now say "well, not that kind of emotion."?

EKURed
05-26-2004, 08:17 AM
Okay... I am a huge Junior fan (please keep that in mind before reading on!).

Here's my take on the "stare thing"... it is not necessary. The point was made as soon as the ball went over the RF fence. The stare is not necessary. The only thing that would have been better is if Junior had not stared IMO. It makes me think of the old phrase "act like you've been there before". If I am the Marlins... the 1st time Junior bats tonight, I throw the 1st pitch near his head. Then I throw the 2nd pitch even closer to his head. You want to stare (glare?) at our manager, then get in the box and look out.

Mckeon went to the press on Junior? So what?!? Junior copped out early on his team. McKeon knew (thanks to brainiac Bowden) that his REDS days were done. McKeon also knew that he was not well received by Junior or Larkin (for whatever reason those two had). Leave early on your team? That takes more than nerve... it takes a huge ego. I do not care about renting a charter flight. Hey, there is always a chance for a rain delay. You took the chance (charter flight + rain delay) and you should have sucked it up and bit the bullet on the charter flight. Last game of the year or not... you get paid to be with the REDS team. What Junior did was wrong... w-r-o-n-g. If he hates Jack for that, then his psyche is even more fragile (screwed-up) than I ever thought. That whole thing was not Jack's fault... it was Junior's (& Larkin's). Then Jack goes public (buy telling the truth!!). So what? The REDS were giving him the shaft (as well as lark & Junior by their actions during most of Jack's last year w/ the REDS).

Junior needs to grow up (who Junior?) and get over things that happened 3 1/2 years ago. He caused that problem, not Jack. Junior is Junior. He has plenty of personality "issues". Junior had no reason to stare at Jack. Just run the bases, act like you've been there before and keep on hitting!!

I have many issues with what you said. First off, to even suggest someone throw at another person's head is a complete joke...an utter disgrace and you have no understanding of how the game should be played. Second, in the heat of competition, when someone challenges you like McKeon did, why not get excited about it. There is obviously history between the two of them and McKeon was definitely trying to show Junior up in that situation. Junior trumped him...and all he did was look...never said one word. And the third thing is that Griffey wasn't even on the active roster when he chartered the flight, he didn't even have to be there in the first place, but he was. And, he had permission from ownership to leave, so who cares. What I care about is that he is definitely here for his team right now....wow, is he ever!!!!

TeamCasey
05-26-2004, 08:29 AM
This isn't by any chance going to get blown completely out of proportion, is it? :p: :biglaugh:

smith288
05-26-2004, 08:38 AM
If its Griffey...yep!

By the way, doesn't Griffey kill kittens and steal candy from children?? :lol:

RedFanAlways1966
05-26-2004, 08:47 AM
I really like Griffey, believe me. I just don't like the stare thing. There is no need for it. Mckeon is trying to WIN... not make Junior look bad. He walks Casey to try to WIN... not make Junior look bad. So why does Junior not understand this and have to give Jack "the look"?

I admit that I do not like some of Griffey's "mental things". Letting radio-types upset him, staring at opposing managers b/c they have "the nerve" to walk the man before him. I just want Junior to play the game (like his father played it, no staring at other managers!). I do not need the "stare at the opposing manager".

I am sure that this whole thing is getting blown up. But there would not be 'a thing" if Junior had just run the bases and not stared at Jack.

Oh... and I know a lot about the game. Do not be shocked if a ball or two sails near Junior's body tonight. Do not be surprised. You stare at the opposing manager and that might happen. And I am sure some here will blame Jack McKeon for that... not Junior.

creek14
05-26-2004, 08:55 AM
I like Jack. Liked him when he was the manager here. Liked him when he left. Liked him when he went to the Fish.

I like Jr. Liked him with the Mariners. Love him with the Reds.

The Look didn't bother me at all. And I bet it didn't bother Jack, either. If you can dish it (walk to get to a guy with over 490 HR's), then you better be able to take it (the look).

zombie-a-go-go
05-26-2004, 09:02 AM
Do not be shocked if a ball or two sails near Junior's body tonight. Do not be surprised. You stare at the opposing manager and that might happen. And I am sure some here will blame Jack McKeon for that... not Junior.

That's because it wouldn't be Jr.'s fault. You (the Fish) can be the bigger man... my father taught that to me.

EKURed
05-26-2004, 09:09 AM
I guarantee you one thing....if a ball sails towards Griffey's head, there will be 24 guys ready to work on the opposing pitcher...I promise you that. And, if you justify throwing at anyone's head, you have big time issues. You clarified yourself saying balls heading towards his body....well, you at first said his head. I can not defend anyone throwing at anyone's head...it's classless...and tasteless. And, for anyone to suggest that could not have played the game....

Rocket_Fuel
05-26-2004, 09:17 AM
Okay... I am a huge Junior fan (please keep that in mind before reading on!).

Here's my take on the "stare thing"... it is not necessary. The point was made as soon as the ball went over the RF fence. The stare is not necessary. The only thing that would have been better is if Junior had not stared IMO. It makes me think of the old phrase "act like you've been there before". If I am the Marlins... the 1st time Junior bats tonight, I throw the 1st pitch near his head. Then I throw the 2nd pitch even closer to his head. You want to stare (glare?) at our manager, then get in the box and look out.



Let me get this straight, you claim to be a huge Junior fan but you want the Marlins to throw at his head for staring into the dugout? You're a Junior fan and you're encouraging other teams to go head hunting on him. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you're not as big a Junior fan as you claim. If a player stared down Miley in the dugout I would want the Reds to BEAT that team, I wouldn't want any of our pitchers to throw at another player's head. You call Junior's actions unprofessional and you respond to that with encouragign someone to throw at his head? I'm sorry that is stupid and idiotic. And if the Marlin pitchers are men and do throw at Griffey like you want them to then they better pitch to him as well and get ready to get lit up just like Josh Beckett did last night.

MikeS21
05-26-2004, 09:19 AM
The irony of this whole episode is the impecable timing. Wasn't it just yesterday that the story came out about Griffey never "celebrating" hitting a HR? This may not have been a celebration per se, but it certainly was an "in your face" gesture. This has all the makings of a PR nightmare.

Only in Cincinnati ...

WVRed
05-26-2004, 09:20 AM
Jr must be jealous that McKeon has one more WS ring than he does :evil:

I've gotta wonder how smart the stare was, two games left in the series, plus another series at Pro Player Stadium next week. I just hope Travis Phelps and Brad Penny dont go head-hunting.

Phhhl
05-26-2004, 09:23 AM
It's a mountain out of a molehill. The angry idiot was chattering about it on 1360 this morning too. If anger motivates Junior to hit as he has in the clutch during this streak, that's fine with me. Frankly, I like seeing him show a little emotion. I think the intentional walks are a microcosm of the fact that he has been challenged this year in general, and he is responding like the Hall of Famer he is. The batting average does not reflect the number of clutch hits he has had this month. With runners in scoring position he is hitting about .340. It may or may not have been the right move by Jack, but I don't doubt there was a little bit of one upsmanship on his part in the decision too. Jack was frustrated with the Junior trade when it went down and has made his opinion very clear ever since.

But, the message is becoming very clear with Junior right now. Don't try to play chicken with him when he's locked in and healthy.

15fan
05-26-2004, 09:43 AM
Agree that it's a mountain out of a mole hill.

But I love it. I absofreakinglutely love it.

The great players & the great teams always seem to have a little bit of moxie. Chutzpah, even.

Junior & the Reds showed some last night.

buckeyenut
05-26-2004, 09:43 AM
I was watching the game, all three kids asleep upstairs, my wife in on the computer. As soon as they IBBed Casey, I thought to myself, why would they do that? It has been done twice in the last couple of days and both times, they have been burnt, once by Jr and once by Kearns. I am sitting in my chair arguing with myself the logic, I mean Casey is leading the league in hitting and was on fire the night before (glad I picked that game to walk up to rather than last nights account of the weather), when Beckett threw that 96 mph heater up there and Jr turned on it. As soon as I saw that swing and contact, I jumped out of my chair and yelped like a squeeling pig, causing my wife to pee herself (metaphorically, of course) in the other room. That was the sweetest swing I have seen out of Jr in years, and I have not seen a ball laserbeamed like that in a long time. If he had gotten it up, it could have gone 500 ft.

I saw the glare but didn't anything of it until I heard it on the Angry Guys this morning. I don't understand the big deal. If I was a Hall of Famer, a sure fire first ballot type guy and you walked someone to pitch to me for the third time in 5 days? I would do more than glare, especially when it had backfired in their faces every single time. I would be shocked if it had anything to do with their prior relationship or anything else. It was a message, you walk someone to get to me, I will make you pay. Why are you questioning my manhood?

Now, as I alluded to earlier, I can completely understand the logic of the IBB in that situation. We are not talking a slow start for Jr. We are talking a guy who has not been productive in 3 years. A guy is widely viewed as over the hill and breaking down and just about done for. And a guy who does not have the season numbers (big picture) at this point to change that view. As a follower of the Reds, someone who has been watching Jr heat up, I just don't think I do it, having seen the results of the first two times it was done and the way Jr is swinging the bat. Trader Jack doesn't have the benefit of that.

But let's change the topic real quick. Just think about the piece of situational hitting by Jr in that situation. You have runners on first and second, so the pitcher does not want to walk you. They just IBBed the guy before so he needs to get one over to ensure he hasn't lost his control, which happens sometimes after an IBB. You as a pitcher lose the control and focus a little and throw 1 or 2 balls and all of the sudden, you are in a bad situation. Then, the guy on the mound is a young gun with an I am better than the world attitude (hard earned in the WS btw) and a 96 MPH heater. And he is staring in at me thinking I am washed up and over the hill. What do I do?

Here is what Jr did apparently. Throw everything else out of my mind and sit dead red, know full well it is coming and be ready to jump on it. I wished I had taped the game, just so I could go back and watch the minute or two leading up to that at bat, just to see Jr's eyes and body language as he went up to the plate. Seeing that picture perfect swing again would be nice too, but I have a hunch that you could all but read his mind by looking into his eyes before he stepped to the plate for that at bat.

Man, I get goosebumps just thinking about the whole exchange. Stuff like this is why baseball is the best sport in the entire world.

EKURed
05-26-2004, 09:45 AM
This is ridiculous...absolutely ridiculous...

Junior can't win for losing. He is balling right now. How is it that baseball players are supposed to do and say nothing? It wasn't malice or anything....GET OVER IT!!!

MWM
05-26-2004, 09:53 AM
If it would have been anyone other than Junior, the two angry guys would have been fine with it. I actually don't mind Skinner most of the time, but Tom Gamble is just another blowhard who mkaes little sense most of the time and feels like HAS to see the negative side of everything. He strikes me as not the brightest guy in the world, but not to "Wild Man Walker" proportions.

I'll be interested to hear Lance's take on the thing as he is usually fair and his opinions are normally well reasoned. Personally, I LOVED the stare. The thing is, it wasn't even a start. If you watch the replay it was a glance that last lasted about a second. And I think it's something most players of his stature would have done in that situation. Junior took it personally, and I don't blame the guy. I recorded and watched the game late and laughed my ass off when I saw the glare. It was classic and I loked seeing that sort of thing out of Junior.

buckeyenut
05-26-2004, 09:53 AM
Agree that it's a mountain out of a mole hill.

But I love it. I absofreakinglutely love it.

The great players & the great teams always seem to have a little bit of moxie. Chutzpah, even.

Junior & the Reds showed some last night.

Here, here!!!!

Judging from his reaction in the papers, I would guess McKeon could care less and wouldn't condone throwing at Jr. I think he understands the dish it out take it nature of this one. Now, Beckett on the other hand, I could see him going to Phelps and saying, can you plant one in this guys back for showing me up? The sad thing is that Jr came to bat again in the game. Lead off the 8th inning. If you are going to retaliate for something like this, you do it then and there or you do it back in the sixth by planting one in Austin Kearns' back as he comes up after Jr. I don't remember him coming anywhere close to Kearns. To retaliate the next day for something like this is bush league and would IMO be completely driven by the media coverage of it.

I have been trying to temper my enthusiasm about this team all year and take the long term view of these guys. But I just can't do it anymore, not after the last five games. We are gonna win this division!!!!! :)

LvJ
05-26-2004, 10:04 AM
People want him to show emotion and fire, and when he does, he gets some crap for it? Wow. Get over it RFA66. I usually agree with alot of what you've gotta say, but right now - your making me hurt. It' was a stare after the weak hitting 1B got IBB infront of a future hall of famer! There is absolutely nothing wrong with that stare. Nothing at all. Nothing no man can ever come up with in his little head will ever make that stare out to be something bad or wrong.

smith288
05-26-2004, 10:06 AM
The more I think of the stare (when FSO put it on slow mo going to commercial break i think) the more bada$$ it was. A menacing look towards the slight from McKeon is deserved.

oheeoh..magglio
05-26-2004, 10:13 AM
Personally, I loved the stare and was laughing about it the moment I saw it.

Griffey didn't go overboard and stare at his homer or start yapping at Beckett like he could have, but he made sure to look at Jack rounding 3rd as if to say "I dare you to try that crap again."

I'm not sure why this would anger anybody, I mean what do you expect the guy to do after he almost hits the 1st pitch to Covington following an intentional walk?? Just run around the bases and act like he wasn't disrespected??

I was very happy to see some fire from Griffey, it's not something he shows all that often.

RedFanAlways1966
05-26-2004, 10:25 AM
I guarantee you one thing....if a ball sails towards Griffey's head, there will be 24 guys ready to work on the opposing pitcher...I promise you that. And, if you justify throwing at anyone's head, you have big time issues. You clarified yourself saying balls heading towards his body....well, you at first said his head. I can not defend anyone throwing at anyone's head...it's classless...and tasteless. And, for anyone to suggest that could not have played the game....

I am not going to give you my baseball background. You obviously know (excuse me, DO NOT KNOW) me already. Issues? Only with you... now. But that's okay, I'll read your book on baseball someday when you are out of school, Professor Doubleday.

However, these things (head-hunting) tend to start when someone "stares". I do not agree with it and might have been a bit over-the-top w/ my first post. Just play the game. That is what I want. No stares, no arm flaps, no jumping (Sosa). Just play the game and act like you've hit many HRs in the past (like 491 before that). That is what I want.

RANDY IN INDY
05-26-2004, 10:36 AM
I am not going to give you my baseball background. You obviously know (excuse me, DO NOT KNOW) me already. Issues? Only with you... now. But that's okay, I'll read your book on baseball someday when you are out of school, Professor Doubleday.

However, these things (head-hunting) tend to start when someone "stares". I do not agree with it and might have been a bit over-the-top w/ my first post. Just play the game. That is what I want. No stares, no arm flaps, no jumping (Sosa). Just play the game and act like you've hit many HRs in the past (like 491 before that). That is what I want.

Probably would have to morph back into the '60's for that, RFA66. I'm not a big fan of all the extra-curricular stuff either, but I can also remember guys like Frank Robinson and Bob Gibson glaring at anyone who crossed their path the wrong way. I personally had no problem with the little glare that Griffey shot into the Marlins dugout. It was brief and it sent the message. Right now, he is back. I can get used to it.

letsgojunior
05-26-2004, 10:38 AM
Did anyone see McKeon's pregame comment (from the Miami Herald):

And to think McKeon, at least before the game began, was having fun with Griffey's home run chase to 500. At least McKeon managed a laugh out of reporters when he joked about a sign positioned above the wall in right-center at Great American Ball Park, one that simply read ``491.''

''I didn't realize it was 491 feet to that thing there,'' said McKeon, knowing full well that the number represented Griffey's career home run count.

buckeyenut
05-26-2004, 10:41 AM
Did anyone see McKeon's pregame comment (from the Miami Herald):

And to think McKeon, at least before the game began, was having fun with Griffey's home run chase to 500. At least McKeon managed a laugh out of reporters when he joked about a sign positioned above the wall in right-center at Great American Ball Park, one that simply read ``491.''

''I didn't realize it was 491 feet to that thing there,'' said McKeon, knowing full well that the number represented Griffey's career home run count.
well now, it is apparently 492 feet out there. :)

2001MUgrad
05-26-2004, 10:42 AM
I don't blame him, I'd have stared too. But anyway, I'm glad people are walking Cassey, its fine by me, it simply means Griffey will see more and better pitches to hit, now if Austin Kearns can keep hitting, this is going to be a deadly order up to the 6 hole.

missionhockey21
05-26-2004, 10:46 AM
The is another example of how everyone blows any Ken Griffey news way out of proportion.

Old Griffey-McKeon Feud
McKeon walks Griffey
Griffey makes him pay
Griffey gives him a "message" stare

Big deal. Was it really appropriate? Probably not. But we are contending despite it being early and I sure as hell want to see fire from all our players. That we mean business and if you walk someone to get to an All-Century player, it will haunt you. I gurantee Jack will think twice about walking someone to get to Griffey in the future.

EKURed
05-26-2004, 10:47 AM
I am not going to give you my baseball background. You obviously know (excuse me, DO NOT KNOW) me already. Issues? Only with you... now. But that's okay, I'll read your book on baseball someday when you are out of school, Professor Doubleday.

However, these things (head-hunting) tend to start when someone "stares". I do not agree with it and might have been a bit over-the-top w/ my first post. Just play the game. That is what I want. No stares, no arm flaps, no jumping (Sosa). Just play the game and act like you've hit many HRs in the past (like 491 before that). That is what I want.

I don't want your baseball background. I don't care...but if you suggest headhunting you have no understanding or respect for the game.

You know what....if you get so torn up over a 1-2 second glance...maybe we should just have robots playing showing NO emotion in front of fans not allowed to make any noise...whatever....

it's a freaking game....get over it...it wasn't a big deal....there is bad blood....Griffey made his point...basically Griffey's glance meant "SCOREBOARD"

VR
05-26-2004, 10:50 AM
This is some good controversy. Reds have been dissed for a while now, I'm glad to see one of them stand up and say 'no more Mr. nice guy'
Winning teams can be like that.

Perhaps it's a little killer instinct coming around. :thumbup:

TeamCasey
05-26-2004, 10:52 AM
I don't see where 1966 said he wanted to see headhunting .... just that he predicted it might happen ....... and it absolutely could. Two entirely different things. Jeez, guys, C'mon!

Johnny Footstool
05-26-2004, 10:53 AM
I do NOT think JR would stare at another ballplayer....as that seems to be taboo.

Did anyone else watch him run the bases after that home run? As he was rounding second, he DID turn and glare at a Marlins player. I couldn't tell if it was Castillo or Gonzalez, but he definitely gave someone the stink-eye. I pointed it out to my friends as it happened, and they said they noticed it too. We said, "I guess that intentional walk p*ssed him off." Then he rounded third and glared into the dugout, and we all said, "Yeah, it sure did."

I also remarked that his "angry glare" looked a lot like Prince's in "Purple Rain" after Morris Day stole Appollonia. :)

And as for "headhunting," it's part of the game. '66 wasn't endorsing it, or saying it *should* happen. He was saying it *will* happen, because that's the mentality of ballplayers.

RANDY IN INDY
05-26-2004, 10:53 AM
It would be real nice to think that pitchers never go "head hunting" in Major League baseball, but I certainly see enough high hard ones on a regular basis to know that just isn't the case. Case in point is the picture of Griffey getting out of the way of the high hard one against the Astros. Throwing the baseball up around the ears has been around for a long time, and although nobody is going to come right out and say it in this PC world, it is still a big part of the game for pitchers. To question RFA66's understanding of the game based on that assumption would make me question anyone's understanding of what really goes on between the lines. It's not a game for the faint of heart. To believe that no one is ever going to throw it up around your ears because it just isn't the right thing to do, is a good way to take one in the old coconut.

Roy Tucker
05-26-2004, 10:56 AM
I like Jack. Liked him with the Reds. Sorry he left but it seemed to be time. Was happy for him when the Fish won the WS last year. A good guy.

I like Junior. Like all Reds fans, I've been dying for him to have some Mariners-era-type success as a Red. Looks like it might be happening this year. I'm happier for him (and us fans) than words can express.

Personally, I'm not big on glares or any other ways of showing up your opposition. Like RFA said, act like you've been there before. Any other player at any other time I'd say it's bush. I wouldn't be totally surprised to see a little bad blood come out of this.

But in another way, I'm glad Jr. did it. He's playing with some fire in his belly now. I'm sure he was giving it his all before, but injuries were just too close to the surface for him to be able to let out the stops. Well, he's letting them out now. And Jr. never shows his emotions (a source of criticism). For him to do this speaks volumes.

EKURed
05-26-2004, 11:09 AM
[QUOTE=RedFanAlways1966]Okay... I am a huge Junior fan (please keep that in mind before reading on!).

Here's my take on the "stare thing"... it is not necessary. The point was made as soon as the ball went over the RF fence. The stare is not necessary. The only thing that would have been better is if Junior had not stared IMO. It makes me think of the old phrase "act like you've been there before". If I am the Marlins... the 1st time Junior bats tonight, I throw the 1st pitch near his head. Then I throw the 2nd pitch even closer to his head. You want to stare (glare?) at our manager, then get in the box and look out. [QUOTE]

He didn't suggest headhunting??? Read his post that I quoted....maybe I can't read...hmmmmm....sure seems like he insinuated some head hunting....

Redsland
05-26-2004, 11:21 AM
I also remarked that his "angry glare" looked a lot like Prince's in "Purple Rain" after Morris Day stole Appollonia. :)
So you're saying it was an homage?

Or…wait…both followed in their father's footsteps…both drive sports cars…the game was being played in rain… :idea:

Oh my god! :eek:

TeamCasey
05-26-2004, 11:32 AM
[QUOTE=RedFanAlways1966]Okay... I am a huge Junior fan (please keep that in mind before reading on!).

Here's my take on the "stare thing"... it is not necessary. The point was made as soon as the ball went over the RF fence. The stare is not necessary. The only thing that would have been better is if Junior had not stared IMO. It makes me think of the old phrase "act like you've been there before". If I am the Marlins... the 1st time Junior bats tonight, I throw the 1st pitch near his head. Then I throw the 2nd pitch even closer to his head. You want to stare (glare?) at our manager, then get in the box and look out. [QUOTE]

He didn't suggest headhunting??? Read his post that I quoted....maybe I can't read...hmmmmm....sure seems like he insinuated some head hunting....

I'm sure you read just fine. We're simply comprehending differently.

RANDY IN INDY
05-26-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by EKURed:

sure seems like he insinuated some head hunting....

Are you really naive enough to believe that it doesn't go on? Even if RFA66 did insinuate it, it is nothing that hasn't been going on in major league dugouts for a long, long time. It's called "intimidation" from a pitcher's perspective, and it works. People may not like it, or think that it is right, but to believe it doesn't continue in this day and age on Major League diamonds and dugouts is to be extremely naive about the game of baseball. Nobody is going to admit "headhunting" but it is alive and well. Again, all you have to do is look at the picture of Junior the other night against the Astros to see it "up close and personal."

EKURed
05-26-2004, 11:41 AM
Are you really naive enough to believe that it doesn't go on? Even if RFA66 did insinuate it, it is nothing that hasn't been going on in major league dugouts for a long, long time. It's called "intimidation" from a pitcher's perspective, and it works. People may not like it, or think that it is right, but to believe it doesn't continue in this day and age on Major League diamonds and dugouts is to be extremely naive about the game of baseball. Nobody is going to admit "headhunting" but it is alive and well. Again, all you have to do is look at the picture of Junior the other night against the Astros to see it "up close and personal."

Nope...I'm not naive. I understand what goes on, but are you too naive to understand that you can hit a person in the back and get the same message across. Have you faced a 90 mile fastball in your life? People talk about head hunting so casually...it's all fun and games until you have looked at one yourself....

RANDY IN INDY
05-26-2004, 11:50 AM
Nope...I'm not naive. I understand what goes on, but are you too naive to understand that you can hit a person in the back and get the same message across. Have you faced a 90 mile fastball in your life? People talk about head hunting so casually...it's all fun and games until you have looked at one yourself....

Believe it or not, you are not the only person that has ever faced a 90 mph fastball. I have looked at more than a few, and there is nothing "casual" about it. I don't disagree that putting one between someone's shoulders is just as effective, but I have played enough baseball to know that there are players and managers out there that are mean and ornery enough to do anything it takes to get an advantage. They may not go out and speak publicly about it, but they sure have no qualms about using it to their advantage. You don't have to watch much baseball to see a lot of pitches up around the head. They are not all accidents. I will agree with you on one thing. "It's all fun and games until you have looked at one yourself."

KittyDuran
05-26-2004, 12:10 PM
Here's my take on the "stare thing"... it is not necessary. The point was made as soon as the ball went over the RF fence. The stare is not necessary. The only thing that would have been better is if Junior had not stared IMO. It makes me think of the old phrase "act like you've been there before". My thoughts exactly...(and it was on the first pitch too) And isn't Junior contradicting himself? Didn't he mention in the newspapers of not showing any emotion when hitting a HR because of Dad telling him not to do it again after hitting his First HR? What's really sad is that this has been the talk of sports radio here in the Queen City, when the story should be about the team! :mad:

RANDY IN INDY
05-26-2004, 12:24 PM
I've watched the tape a few times, and I think the "stare" is getting blown way out of proportion. It was more like a "steely glance" that sent a very subtle message. It's not like Junior jumped up and down, waved his arms and made a big issue out of it. I, personally, kind of like the subtle gamesmanship. I think Griffey is finally getting to play baseball in Cincinnati the way he expected, and I like the intensity that he is bringing to the ballpark these days.

smith288
05-26-2004, 12:35 PM
Yea...ESPN's slow mo replay over and over make it seem like Griffey stopped midway, flexed his muscles, flipped the Marlins off and then moonwalked over homeplate.

He made a slight glare at McKeon... Nothing that hasnt been seen before and I definately think it was pimp.

Cedric
05-26-2004, 12:46 PM
When did everybody come out with this saying "just play the game". Baseball is one of the most emotional sports and for almost a century players have showed this type of emotion, what's wrong with it? Redfanalways acts like Ty Cobb was never born and today's athlete started this stuff, it's not true.
And who cares about the talk show coverage in Cincinnati? It's miserable anyway with those idiot Kentucky fans. Sadly I have no idea how Lance stays sane with the iq of callers of his show and those two kentucky guys, it's sad how dumb the general sports population is.

ramp101
05-26-2004, 12:48 PM
as I said before, Im glad it happened..... no need for Jack to be walking Casey for Griffey

overmanaging.... something he has done alot this year so far.... anyway good luck tonight

EmtyRedsFan
05-26-2004, 12:50 PM
I thought it was great. Everyone cries about Griffey not showing emotion "he never smiles, he always looks like he isnt interested, blah blah blah." He looks at someone with a look of "Try me again" and people want to start crying again that he shouldnt show that much emotion. How about we watch one of the greatest players ever start taking a team on his back like we all expected before and love it as the Reds are in first place with the best record in the NL.

Cedric
05-26-2004, 12:53 PM
Griffey will never win in this city, it's like these idiot talk show hosts look for a reason to fire up the anti-Griffey masses. Those two angry idiots need too go back and talk about stupid Kentucky basketball and leave the Reds alone.

westofyou
05-26-2004, 12:57 PM
When did everybody come out with this saying "just play the game". Baseball is one of the most emotional sports and for almost a century players have showed this type of emotion, what's wrong with it?

In an exhibition game between Detroit and the Giants in 1916, Ty Cobb took umbrage with an inside pitch and decided to slash his spikes into Giants' infielder Buck Herzog later in the game. After he was once again brushed back by a pitch (from Jeff Tesreau), Cobb challenged Herzog, Tesreau and the rest of the New York team to fight. The story goes that Herzog and Cobb fought on the field, under the stands after the game, and in Cobb's room at the hotel later that night. Eyewitness accounts differ on who won the fight, but with the reputations each of them had for fighting, it's safe to assume both Cobb and Herzog got in some good licks.


http://www.thebaseballpage.com/features/2003/beanball_history.htm

Cedric
05-26-2004, 12:58 PM
God I love Ty Cobb.

Puffy
05-26-2004, 01:00 PM
God I love Ty Cobb.

Yeah, those racists from Georgia are all warm and cuddly :mhcky21:

Cedric
05-26-2004, 01:02 PM
I don't judge men's character in the past, I imagine about anyone raised in Georgia in 1900 would be somewhat racist, it's life. I also don't care much about players life's off the field, on the field the son of a ***** played the game HARD.

paintmered
05-26-2004, 01:10 PM
Here is the link to the video of his homerun and the "stare". Decide for yourself.



Edit: My link isn't working. Go to mlb.com and they have a link to it on their homepage.

smith288
05-26-2004, 01:12 PM
Video here (http://www.fox19.com/global/video/popup/pop_index.asp?ClipID1=210218&h1=Watch%20Griffey's%20HR%20off%20Beckett&vt1=v&at1=Sport&d1=33533&LaunchPageAdTag=Sport&activePane=info&playerVersion=9&rnd=81740701)

westofyou
05-26-2004, 01:13 PM
God I love Ty Cobb.

Story I heard was they locked themselves in a hotel room with one guy as the Judge, Cobb kicked the crap out of him but also got some nice facial lacerations. The next 2 games Cobb wasn't around, Herzog was convinced that he had lost the fight but said "That Cocky SOB won't show because he'd have to admit that he got knocked on his butt by a smaller man."

BTW Herzog was the Reds Player manager in the mid teens.

Cobb also had a legendary fight with Boss Schmidt (catcher on his own team) in 1906 or so, got his butt kicked good.

Puffy, Cobbs father was in the Civil War, he certainl was a product of his culture.

BTW Cobb, Tris Speaker and Gabby Street all were KKK members (as I'm sure others were) during it's 2nd coming in the 20's.

RedFanAlways1966
05-26-2004, 01:17 PM
Redfanalways acts like Ty Cobb was never born and today's athlete started this stuff, it's not true.

I don't care what Ty Cobb or anyone else did. Nor did I state that modern players started the arrogance thing. I (in my opinion) wish that Griffey would just run around the bases and not look at the opposing manager. There is no reason to look at anyone. Jack is trying to win. So is Junior. If Griffey would have struck out, would it have been okay for Jack to stand at the top of the steps and stare at Griffey in a "see I knew what I was doing " look?

Better yet... next time an opposing player gives the REDS a look, then I look forward to the reaction of many here. We'll see how differently the shoe fits at that time.

smith288
05-26-2004, 01:20 PM
Yea, Dusty Baker doesnt do anything like that or Sammy Sosa with his goofy jump after a well hit ball.

RedFanAlways1966
05-26-2004, 01:27 PM
Yea, Dusty Baker doesnt do anything like that or Sammy Sosa with his goofy jump after a well hit ball.

I know, smith. But staring at the manager is a bit different than that. Even talking about the opposition is different than that. When you do something on the field that is directed at the opponent, then it takes it to another level (usually in the minds of the opponent). I hope nothing comes of it.

And FWIW... Griffey does not have to win me (see how things get blown out of proportion... saying that one does not agree w/ Griffey's stare leads to the statement that Junior can never win over Cincy). I am a big Griffey fan. That does mean that I have to agree with everything that he does. The same reason that I would not praise someone who likes to assault people during and after a game. But it also does not mean that I am a Griffey hater if I do not agree with a particuliar action or statement. Is that so hard to understand!??!

smith288
05-26-2004, 01:33 PM
No, whats hard to understand is saying you like Griffey then go on to bash him as some cry baby who doesnt know how to play with class.

Puffy
05-26-2004, 01:33 PM
Story I heard was they locked themselves in a hotel room with one guy as the Judge, Cobb kicked the crap out of him but also got some nice facial lacerations. The next 2 games Cobb wasn't around, Herzog was convinced that he had lost the fight but said "That Cocky SOB won't show because he'd have to admit that he got knocked on his butt by a smaller man."

BTW Herzog was the Reds Player manager in the mid teens.

Cobb also had a legendary fight with Boss Schmidt (catcher on his own team) in 1906 or so, got his butt kicked good.

Puffy, Cobbs father was in the Civil War, he certainl was a product of his culture.

BTW Cobb, Tris Speaker and Gabby Street all were KKK members (as I'm sure others were) during it's 2nd coming in the 20's.

I know - thats why I had the :mhcky21: after it.

True story. When I worked for the Attorney General's office we had to investigate a complaint against a woman who wouldn't rent to a black woman. The complainee even had gone so far as to tape conversations she had with the owner of the building. The owner was was taped saying such things as "I would rent the place to you if it had a back door you could use" and "I'm sorry, but i just can't rent to a colored woman" among others.

The thing was that the owner was a 94 year old woman who by all accounts was as sweet as sweet can be. And how could you really be outraged by her as that was the culture she grew up in.

Ty Cobb is just an easy target for that joke, but he sure wasn't the only racist who ever played baseball.

UCmaroons
05-26-2004, 01:45 PM
Ok, so when I first saw it I was pretty pumped up. I was mad that McKeon had walked Griffey and got excited about the glare. After thinking about it, I'm not so sure that I like it. Just put your head down and run the bases. That is the way that the game is supposed to be played. Don't show up your opponent. I think that he made his point by hitting the homerun. The look was not really needed. (By the way, there is nothing that I get more excited about than when I get to watch Scott Rolen run the bases after a HR. That is how it is supposed to be done)

Also, there is a place for throwing at the other team in baseball. Yes, there are circumstances in which a guy should be plunked. Case in point: A guy hits a homerun against my college team. As he approached homeplate, he stopped short and removed his shin guard and helmet before proceeding across the plate. That guy deserved to be hit. He disrespected the game and my team. That is one of a few exceptions. On another note, there is no place for throwing at another player's head. EVER. Completely stupid and inhumane. Should never happen. Put it in the middle of his back and move on.

RedFanAlways1966
05-26-2004, 01:47 PM
No, whats hard to understand is saying you like Griffey then go on to bash him as some cry baby who doesnt know how to play with class.

I did not mean it that way, smith. I did not like what he did last night. I did not like what he did in the last game of 2000. I do not agree with staring at the opposing manager when you are running down the third base line. I do not like that a guy leaves early during game #162. I would never say Junior is a crybaby. I might say that he needs to shut his mouth and just play baseball. Junior is a sensitive person. No doubt about it. But I will not be over-sensitive for his sake. I tell it like I see it. It is not being a good sport to stare at someone b/c they decided to walk the man before you. No way, no how. That other person is doing what they think will win the game. They were wrong about it last night (thank goodness). I do not care what year you were born or what year you play.

That is not what I consider bashing. Not at all. If that is bashing, then I'd hate to see what you'd call my feelings about a few other players in MLB.

The stare could have been by any REDS player and I would say the same thing.

reds44
05-26-2004, 01:47 PM
well WV, Griffey aint exactly tearing the cover off the ball in 04 is he now?

Sean Casey is having a sick year... I still hate the move but i kinda understand his logic

too bad Beckett decided to serve up a fatty...

3 homers in 3 games that does not classify as tearing the cover off the ball?

traderumor
05-26-2004, 01:48 PM
Manny Ramirez did the same thing in the playoffs last year and Buck and McCarver (I think) went on and on about it. It's a natural emotional reaction when you feel you've been treated disrespectfully to give a "take that" signal.

As for what Jr. said the other day about his 500th homer, IIRC, his dad taught him not to show up the pitcher during a homerun, but I don't believe he gave him instructions for whether showing up overrated, sleepwalking, stinkin' cigar smokin' ex-managers was unacceptable :mhcky21:

ramp101
05-26-2004, 02:04 PM
3 homers in 3 games that does not classify as tearing the cover off the ball?

so I should base everyone's season on 3 games now?....

UCmaroons
05-26-2004, 02:05 PM
When Ramirez did that I went nuts. Threw things at the TV. Yelled and screamed. To clarify though, he pointed to his own dugout, not that of the otehr team (not the griffey pointed).

He also walked halfway up the line. That is what got me.

Eric_Davis
05-26-2004, 02:13 PM
I love SportsCenter's description, "Griffey went Medieval on the Marlins".

And Medieval he did, cranking the very first pitch he saw 20 rows deep with a towering shot. I think that ball must be lopsided now.

"You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a da** sight. I'ma get medieval on your @$$!"

Ryan the Reds Fan
05-26-2004, 02:14 PM
Agree that it's a mountain out of a mole hill.

But I love it. I absofreakinglutely love it.

The great players & the great teams always seem to have a little bit of moxie. Chutzpah, even.

Junior & the Reds showed some last night.

Preach on brother 15fan. I agree 100%. I won't even call it a glare, I'll call it a glance, because that is what it was. This poor guy just can't win in this city. No matter what he does, the media blow hards portray it as bad or wrong. I just about puked this morning as I listened to Skinner on 1360(Gamble is on vacation). Griffey glanced in the dugout, big fricking deal. What's to say someone in the dugout wasn't yelling something at him and he looked over to see who? I know, not likely, but the point is that we don't know all the facts, and so what if it was just a message glance, McKeon gave Casey a message IBB, Griffey I think is entitled to a message glance, after he did what he did. Move on, get over it. I love what this team is doing right now, and only hope that we can continue. I like to see some confidence from the guys, all of them having fun out there. Some of the interviews that Grif has given lately seem to look like he is having fun again, I'm calling the 2004 season the "Return of the Kid".

I just hope the Marlins don't try and retaliate tonight, because as close as this team is, there will be 24+ people (including coaches) following the Kid on his trip to the mound, and it will get ugly.

This whole give Griffey hell thing is just tired. Let the man play ball and do what he does best and loves to do. Leave the guy alone and let him play.

Go Reds!!

traderumor
05-26-2004, 02:14 PM
so I should base everyone's season on 3 games now?....
No, you should base it on the numbers Raisor provided which show someone having a solid year despite a slow start. Plus, one should consider how a player is currently hitting. After all, that is the excuse both managers are using for walking Casey. Griffey has been smoking the ball the last week and it shocks and amazes me that a major league manager doesn't have enough sense to remember that special players do special things at special times. Casey has been hitting as well as anyone in the league, I will grant anyone that, and it is choosing your poison to an extent, but all things considered, who is the most dangerous in that situation? I think some opposing managers better reevaluate their opinion on that.

Ryan the Reds Fan
05-26-2004, 02:19 PM
No, you should base it on the numbers Raisor provided which show someone having a solid year despite a slow start. Plus, one should consider how a player is currently hitting. After all, that is the excuse both managers are using for walking Casey. Griffey has been smoking the ball the last week and it shocks and amazes me that a major league manager doesn't have enough sense to remember that special players do special things at special times. Casey has been hitting as well as anyone in the league, I will grant anyone that, and it is choosing your poison to an extent, but all things considered, who is the most dangerous in that situation? I think some opposing managers better reevaluate their opinion on that.

TR, I heard Jack Mac say that he did it to set up the double play, which in some small way makes sense. Freel was on Second, so walking Casey set up the DP. Plus, Casey is batting 460 something with RISP, yes Grif is batting 340 something with RISP but to play the odds, which Jack usually does, he did what he thought he had to do. I'm not saying I would have, but Jack ain't managing the defending champions for nothing. Yes Grif's been hot, but Sean's been even hotter. It was a better of two evils approach IMO.

Riverfront
05-26-2004, 02:20 PM
"If I am the Marlins... the 1st time Junior bats tonight, I throw the 1st pitch near his head. Then I throw the 2nd pitch even closer to his head. You want to stare (glare?) at our manager, then get in the box and look out.


That's no prediction. That's saying what he would do. So here's a scenario for ya. Go ahead and throw at Jr. Then when the pitcher who did it comes to bat, don't just throw near his head. Drill him. And when(if he's able) he takes 1st base and leads off, drill him again. That's how baseball should be played huh? I mean, if you throw at our best players head, be prepared brother.

You guys are a joke. I know how the games played, but the only person who would throw at a guys head is a piece of ****.

TRF
05-26-2004, 02:23 PM
How about the last seven days?
Ken Griffey Jr.


YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
2004 42 159 25 40 12 0 11 37 24 37 1 0 .252 .353 .535 .888
STAT BREAKDOWN
LAST 7 DAYS 7 27 4 8 4 0 3 11 3 6 0 0 .296 .367 .778 1.144

Tay
05-26-2004, 02:28 PM
It's simple.

If Griffey is prepared to glare into the opposing dugout after a homer, he should be prepared to duck at some point tonight.

It will be interesting to see if the Marlins act on the glare. I'll be the first to admit it would be childish but considering this kind of crap has been going on forever, it wouldn't shock me to see Griffey get plunked. Of course after Griffey gets hit, Kearns will hit the next pitch about 1800 feet and glare into the third base dugout on his way to home plate. :)

buckeyenut
05-26-2004, 02:30 PM
I did not mean it that way, smith. I did not like what he did last night. I did not like what he did in the last game of 2000. I do not agree with staring at the opposing manager when you are running down the third base line. I do not like that a guy leaves early during game #162. I would never say Junior is a crybaby. I might say that he needs to shut his mouth and just play baseball. Junior is a sensitive person. No doubt about it. But I will not be over-sensitive for his sake. I tell it like I see it. It is not being a good sport to stare at someone b/c they decided to walk the man before you. No way, no how. That other person is doing what they think will win the game. They were wrong about it last night (thank goodness). I do not care what year you were born or what year you play.

That is not what I consider bashing. Not at all. If that is bashing, then I'd hate to see what you'd call my feelings about a few other players in MLB.

The stare could have been by any REDS player and I would say the same thing.

When you are an all Century player and you get the guy ahead of you intentionally walked 3 times in 5 nights, you are being disrespected. Period, end of story. The glare is simply a subtle message that says "Guess what? Maybe I still deserve the respect." Nothing more, nothing less.

Neither walking Casey nor glaring in my opinion is any worse than the other. Both show up the other guy, but neither does so in such a way that it is a big deal.

Johnny Footstool
05-26-2004, 02:36 PM
So you're saying it was an homage?

I'm saying I wouldn't have been surprised if he had started singing "dearly beloved...we are gathered here today to get through this thing called life..." as he rounded the bases.

LoganBuck
05-26-2004, 02:38 PM
Who cares really? Are these guys so frickin' thin skinned that something this trivial bothers them? If it is then they should all be wearing skirts. Is this any worse then Casey jumping up and down at home plate like a todder after scoring a run in the middle of an inning?

Chip R
05-26-2004, 02:39 PM
Who cares really? Are these guys so frickin' thin skinned that something this trivial bothers them? If it is then they should all be wearing skirts. Is this any worse then Casey jumping up and down at home plate like a todder after scoring a run in the middle of an inning?Of course it is because it's Jr. Everything Jr. does - good or bad - is magnified times 1000.

traderumor
05-26-2004, 02:40 PM
TR, I heard Jack Mac say that he did it to set up the double play, which in some small way makes sense. Freel was on Second, so walking Casey set up the DP. Plus, Casey is batting 460 something with RISP, yes Grif is batting 340 something with RISP but to play the odds, which Jack usually does, he did what he thought he had to do. I'm not saying I would have, but Jack ain't managing the defending champions for nothing. Yes Grif's been hot, but Sean's been even hotter. It was a better of two evils approach IMO.
I know that's what he says the percentage move is. That's why I don't like McKeon as a manager. Sometimes you have to think about more than what the chart says to do. He managed by rote in this instance and got burnt.

Well, that's one reason I don't like McKeon as a manager :mhcky21:

Cedric
05-26-2004, 02:43 PM
Well then you better dislike about 99% of managers because I bet my wallet almost every manager would have walked Casey there.

Ryan the Reds Fan
05-26-2004, 02:45 PM
I'm with ya TR, I'm not saying I agree, but that's just Jack, and he's done something right to manage a team to a WS title.

Ryan the Reds Fan
05-26-2004, 02:46 PM
How about the last seven days?
Ken Griffey Jr.


YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
2004 42 159 25 40 12 0 11 37 24 37 1 0 .252 .353 .535 .888
STAT BREAKDOWN
LAST 7 DAYS 7 27 4 8 4 0 3 11 3 6 0 0 .296 .367 .778 1.144


Now compare that to Casey over the last 7 days. Because I believe that is what Jack was saying, that he'd rather pitch to Griffey with the chance of a double play thatn Casey with a RISP and no force out.

traderumor
05-26-2004, 02:57 PM
Well then you better dislike about 99% of managers because I bet my wallet almost every manager would have walked Casey there.
Is that so? So I guess the numbers that the crappy lefthander was spitting out about the last time that the batter ahead of Jr was intentionally walked dated back to the late 80s must mean that first base was never open to make that available in the thousands of ABs in between then and last Friday? Plus, an overwhelming number of idiots believing the same thing doesn't necessarily validate the position. Just look at the Democratic Party... :mhcky21: ;)

Falls City Beer
05-26-2004, 02:57 PM
"well WV, Griffey aint exactly tearing the cover off the ball in 04 is he now?"

Griffey: .888 OPS for the season

WELL above average for a ML centerfielder.

gm
05-26-2004, 03:07 PM
only with the talent he has at Florida is he even winning games...
I hate what happened after Jack left, with you-know-who and all, but anyone, and I mean anyone can win with talent and a supportive front office.


Jeff Torborg couldn't

TeamBoone
05-26-2004, 03:35 PM
My thoughts exactly...(and it was on the first pitch too) And isn't Junior contradicting himself? Didn't he mention in the newspapers of not showing any emotion when hitting a HR because of Dad telling him not to do it again after hitting his First HR? What's really sad is that this has been the talk of sports radio here in the Queen City, when the story should be about the team! :mad:

IIRC, he was told by his Dad to never one-up the pitcher that threw the pitch.

Cedric
05-26-2004, 03:38 PM
Rumor- Come on man, you know you don't honestly think managers feel the same about Griffey now as they did in his younger days. Maybe they should, but they don't :)

Chip R
05-26-2004, 03:49 PM
What's really sad is that this has been the talk of sports radio here in the Queen City, when the story should be about the team! :mad:Like I said, everything Jr. does is magnified. I wonder if Adam had done this if there would be as big of a story? Or if the other team's manager was Bobby Valentine instead of St. Jack?

Eric_Davis
05-26-2004, 04:02 PM
There's a quote in the Atlanta Constitution in April by Jack McKeon.

The discussion was about Griffey's injuries for the last three Aprils.

Jack said, that with no disrespect intended, Griffey just isn't Bonds anymore.

creek14
05-26-2004, 04:07 PM
IIRC, he was told by his Dad to never one-up the pitcher that threw the pitch.
He wasn't showing up the pitcher. He was showing up the person who called for the IBB to Sean.

And sending a little message to every other manager in the league at the same time.

Bill
05-26-2004, 04:16 PM
It seems pretty ignorant to diss a manager that led the lowly marlins to a world series championship, much less the last playoff contending season for our beloved Reds. It's trader jack, not asinine (one s) jack or dipstick jack.

Perhaps Griffey took it personal (as a Mckeon slight), but did not Williams make the same move twice? Time to let it go.

creek14
05-26-2004, 04:19 PM
Jack said, that with no disrespect intended, Griffey just isn't Bonds anymore.
Well Jack sure got that right. Jr didn't sink to the steroid use like Bonds. At least when Jr get to 500, they will be legit.

ramp101
05-26-2004, 04:22 PM
"well WV, Griffey aint exactly tearing the cover off the ball in 04 is he now?"

Griffey: .888 OPS for the season

WELL above average for a ML centerfielder.

my apologies, but he still hitting under .250(my apologies again if im wrong)

Casey is hitting about .360+

it makes sense, but i hate the move

traderumor
05-26-2004, 04:26 PM
Rumor- Come on man, you know you don't honestly think managers feel the same about Griffey now as they did in his younger days. Maybe they should, but they don't :)

I reserve the right to disagree with your assertion that 99% of the other managers, including those during the injury riddled last three seasons, intentionally walked someone ahead of Griff in that situation. Williams and McKeon are the first ones in years. That means that hundreds of times that situation has come up and no one made that "percentages" move. He has now showed them that it was just as bad a move now as it was then.

traderumor
05-26-2004, 04:27 PM
my apologies, but he still hitting under .250(my apologies again if im wrong)

Casey is hitting about .360+

it makes sense, but i hate the move

Just not wanting to be confused by the facts, eh Ramp?
:mhcky21:

Chip R
05-26-2004, 04:28 PM
I reserve the right to disagree with your assertion that 99% of the other managers, including those during the injury riddled last three seasons, intentionally walked someone ahead of Griff in that situation. Williams and McKeon are the first ones in years. That means that hundreds of times that situation has come up and no one made that "percentages" move. He has now showed them that it was just as bad a move now as it was then.
Wasn't Casey or Dunn walked to get to Jr. when the Reds were on the west coast?

EDIT: Just looked at the game logs and that didn't happen in any of the games out there.

ramp101
05-26-2004, 04:28 PM
Just not wanting to be confused by the facts, eh Ramp?
:mhcky21:
im not confused by the facts TR
:thumbup:

westofyou
05-26-2004, 04:32 PM
That means that hundreds of times that situation has come up and no one made that "percentages" move. He has now showed them that it was just as bad a move now as it was then.

It is a percentage move, this time Griffey won, if the pitcher struck him out and pumped his fist in Juinors direction would he be being "Feisty" "Aggressive" or simply just being a prick?

By "my" POV he "Glanced" or "Looked" over that way.

Did he "Glare"? isn't it an opinion what a "Glare" is anyway?

Maggie Simpson "Glares" at the baby with one eyebrow, was the loathing in Juinors glance equal to that?

RFS62
05-26-2004, 04:42 PM
Jack is old school.

I can't imagine that he was bothered by it.

No quarter asked, none given.

I would have walked him too, if I were managing. Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.

He may have helped in the awakening of our sleeping giant, and Junior may have given the Marlins some good bulletin board fodder. So what.

If there's one thing I can say about both these teams, it's that they both play hard.

What the Furbals of the world have to say about it, I couldn't care less.

traderumor
05-26-2004, 04:43 PM
It is a percentage move, this time Griffey won, if the pitcher struck him out and pumped his fist in Juinors direction would he be being "Feisty" "Aggressive" or simply just being a prick?

By "my" POV he "Glanced" or "Looked" over that way.

Did he "Glare"? isn't it an opinion what a "Glare" is anyway?

Maggie Simpson "Glares" at the baby with one eyebrow, was the loathing in Juinors glance equal to that?

Like I said earlier, WOY, it might be a "percentage" move to set up the double play, but it is not a common sense move to IW ahead of a player the caliber of Griffey, esp. a Griffey that has been producing of late.

traderumor
05-26-2004, 04:46 PM
im not confused by the facts TR
:thumbup:
Ok, I'm curious, what about an .888 OPS for the season, including over 1.100 recently doesn't qualify as "tearing the cover off the ball"?

Redsland
05-26-2004, 04:49 PM
I'm with '62.

Unassisted
05-26-2004, 04:51 PM
A question about the event itself, for those who saw it on TV live. On the Fox19 website clip, it looked like Griffey either slowed his trot as he passed the Marlins dugout or it was slowed by television technology, which made the "glare" longer. Is that clip in real-time?

Chip R
05-26-2004, 04:52 PM
We need a "Get Jr. Angry" coach.

creek14
05-26-2004, 05:00 PM
A question about the event itself, for those who saw it on TV live. On the Fox19 website clip, it looked like Griffey either slowed his trot as he passed the Marlins dugout or it was slowed by television technology, which made the "glare" longer. Is that clip in real-time?
It wasn't that long or that bad. It's a slow news/sports day and it's Jr. It was maybe a 3 second look and if that's the best he can do for a glare, then his kids have never gotten the same kind of glare that my dad use to give me.

ramp101
05-26-2004, 05:25 PM
Ok, I'm curious, what about an .888 OPS for the season, including over 1.100 recently doesn't qualify as "tearing the cover off the ball"?
yea, when he hits it

I wouldnt call a .250ish average that great... sorry

he could have a 2.500OPS but if he was hitting .250 id say the same thing

Redsfaithful
05-26-2004, 05:47 PM
yea, when he hits it

I wouldnt call a .250ish average that great... sorry

he could have a 2.500OPS but if he was hitting .250 id say the same thing


Ah crap this thread might hit ten pages now. ;)

creek14
05-26-2004, 05:48 PM
he could have a 2.500OPS but if he was hitting .250 id say the same thing
Raisor? Steel? MWM? Someone....

traderumor
05-26-2004, 05:49 PM
yea, when he hits it

I wouldnt call a .250ish average that great... sorry

he could have a 2.500OPS but if he was hitting .250 id say the same thing
Ok, Ramp, now I know where you're coming from :help:

Matt700wlw
05-26-2004, 06:11 PM
I don't know how this whole staring thing became an issue...Griffey with emotion and fire! Isn't that what we have been waiting for for 3 and a half years?

Welcome to baseball, Beckett! If you don't like someoe showing you up for testing their ability, then don't give him a pitch he can turn around on you.

ramp101
05-26-2004, 06:34 PM
jeez

the fact i was making was that he wasnt getting hits...

Raisor
05-26-2004, 06:46 PM
Raisor? Steel? MWM? Someone....


I don't know if I can do this twice in one day, I might get called an ugly name by someone *cough*Cedric*cough*.

Oh the heck with it..I'll just quote myself.

Rampy:


It's been WEEKS since I've gotten to say this:


I'm sure we can agree with the following: A double is better then a single. A triple is better then a double. A homer is better then a triple.

Since I'm sure we CAN agree to that, why use a stat (batting average) that gives equal weight to all of those outcomes AND ignores other ways of getting on base when we have other stats (OPS for example) that tells us all that and are just as easy to find as BA?

There, I feel better. :thumbup:

ramp101
05-26-2004, 06:53 PM
ok then, if you say so

Raisor
05-26-2004, 07:00 PM
ok then, if you say so

Not even willing to put up an argument? Where's the fun in that on a discussion board :D

RedDog
05-27-2004, 04:57 PM
RFS62 RFA66,

You hit it on the head. One game, one decision that did not pay. McKeon is old school and could care less what someone else on another team does after he hits a home run. Beckett should have been ticked and commented on the "stare". Life goes on for the World Series Champs. I believe they ended up winning the series and shut Jr down the rest of the series.....but Casey still was the tougher out.

It is obvious that Williams and McKeon think that Casey is hitting the ball better now and a tougher out. Most people in the baseball environment have their own thoughts on Jr and one manager will not change their mind. At the same time, guys like Casey, Reese and Graves will always be guys of class.

At the end of the day, Griffey may end up in the Hall and McKeon just a disliked manager in Cincy but that is life. Lets just hope the Reds continue to play good baseball and Miley guides them to a winning record.

Ohioballplayer
05-27-2004, 05:49 PM
:thumbup: Very well typed Red Dog, I am going to be honest, if he "glared" at them GREAT !!!, we need an aggressive Griff for the rest of the season, if he was looking at friends so be it, either way I think this message was sent.

Jack, shame on you, you know if Joshy gives me a fastball, I am taking him downtown !!!!!! Now chew on that for a while !!! :D

Fil3232
05-28-2004, 12:25 AM
According to espn's recap of the game today Brad Penny "wont forgive the glare." Penny goes on to talk some s*** about Griffey making himself seem like a total tool. These Marlins pitchers are very talented but real stupid.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=240527117

Edit: COuldnt find this anywhere else, if it is, Im sorry.

redsrule2500
05-28-2004, 01:04 AM
According to espn's recap of the game today Brad Penny "wont forgive the glare." Penny goes on to talk some s*** about Griffey making himself seem like a total tool. These Marlins pitchers are very talented but real stupid.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=240527117

Edit: COuldnt find this anywhere else, if it is, Im sorry.

LOL wont forget "THE GLARE" :eek: {end sarcasm}

This is being overplayed. It was a look, no words exchanged. Sure we know what Griffey meant, but of course it's not this big of a deal.

KronoRed
05-28-2004, 01:08 AM
Penny is acting like an idiot, he won't forget a glare he most likely had to see on espn to even know it happened?

Har har :help:

letsgojunior
05-28-2004, 08:03 AM
All of these guys need to get their ego into this universe. Personally I thought the glare was petty. I think Junior would have been better-served simply running to home like RFA said. I also think, however, that the reaction has been immature as well. The Marlins didn't even see the glare, and it was blatantly obvious on television who it was directed at. Brad Penny's quotes sound like something 4th graders would say on a playground to each other.

This whole thing is so childish.