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View Full Version : All you Lidle bashers can eat Crow now.



Eric_Davis
06-30-2004, 11:32 PM
...

;)

Eric_Davis
06-30-2004, 11:36 PM
Only once all year has Lidle thrown back-to-back non-quality starts.

June 7th, and June 13th.

So, what does the guy do?

He follows that up with back-to-back quality starts June 18th, and June 24th,
throwing 15 innings giving up 15 hits, 4 earned runs, 2 walks, with 15 strikeouts.

He's on the verge of putting together a streak of 10 games with 8 quality starts among them. That could be right now.

He hasn't had 3 quality starts in a row all year. Let's see what he does on Tuesday against the Mets as he faces Glavine again.

His last start against the Mets was a day game. His next one will be a night game. This year:

Days 4-1, 3.43 ERA
Night 1-4, 7.33 ERA


Here's also four games where Lidle got a No Decision (all road games with three of them against our main rivals):

@CHI 4/17, 7IP, 2 Runs, 2 Earned Runs
@HOU 5/02, 7IP, 3 Runs, 3 Earned Runs
@FLA 6/02, 7IP, 1 Run, 1 Earned Run
@STL 6/18, 7IP, 2 Runs, 2 Earned Runs

He's proven time and again that he has no problem pitching well against good teams in big games.

You can add tonight's performance against the Mets with 7 shutout innings vs. Glavine to his list of stepping it up against top competition.

MWM
06-30-2004, 11:36 PM
I don't eat crow over three outings, especially after all his horrendous ones. I hope he's making me eat crow by the end of the year, but this is a little premature.

you willing to eat crow on Jason Lane yet?

KronoRed
07-01-2004, 02:10 AM
Lidle pitches well when I'm at the park, no I'm not going to follow the team on the road :p: :D

GAC
07-01-2004, 07:41 AM
Doesn't Lidle have all the Reds complete games this year also?

Eric_Davis
07-01-2004, 08:37 AM
I don't eat crow over three outings, especially after all his horrendous ones. I hope he's making me eat crow by the end of the year, but this is a little premature.

you willing to eat crow on Jason Lane yet?

No, but I will if he doesn't have as good a year as I said he would this year.

Now, let's win this Mets series and get within 3 games of the Cardinals.

WVRed
07-01-2004, 10:29 AM
No, but I will if he doesn't have as good a year as I said he would this year.



Biggio, Beltran, and Berkman, dont think he will ever get a chance;)

SteelSD
07-01-2004, 10:44 AM
Doesn't Lidle have all the Reds complete games this year also?

Yep.

A five Inning- 3 Run rain shortened effort on April 22nd (gets a CG but not a Quality Start), an 8-Inning loss on May 12 where he pitched very well, and a beauty of an effort on May 23rd.

The first CG was flukey if ever flukey there was. The 2nd two were solid efforts (CG losses do happen). When he's good, he can be pretty darn good. But when he's bad he's awful. Thusfar, he's been Hyde too often and Jeckyll too infrequently.

Eric_Davis
07-01-2004, 12:12 PM
Biggio, Beltran, and Berkman, dont think he will ever get a chance;)

Instead of moving Biggio back to 2nd, they've sat Lane since Beltran got there. This gives them a much better defense. If they put Biggio at 2nd, they'd have a much better offense.

Eric_Davis
07-01-2004, 12:13 PM
It will be interesting to see if Harang can build upon the five scoreless innings he threw in his last start. (back-to-back shutouts thrown by our #5 starters!, even if they were short outings).

Now to get Acevedo back on track, and we'll start resembling a Major League rotation.

OldXOhio
07-01-2004, 01:24 PM
Thusfar, he's been Hyde too often and Jeckyll too infrequently.

In six of his last 10 starts, Lidl has given up 2 ER or less with an average of nearly 8 IP in those six starts.

Perhaps you have it backwards?

princeton
07-01-2004, 01:25 PM
Lidle's fast becoming tradeable...

OldXOhio
07-01-2004, 01:28 PM
If they put Biggio at 2nd, they'd have a much better offense.

How's that? By virtue of sitting Kent so that Lane can play?

Boss-Hog
07-01-2004, 01:32 PM
How's that? By virtue of sitting Kent so that Lane can play?
I think Kent was going to be moved to third under this proposal and Ensberg sits.

Eric_Davis
07-01-2004, 01:35 PM
How's that? By virtue of sitting Kent so that Lane can play?

Kent goes to third. Sorry I forgot to mention that.

SteelSD
07-01-2004, 11:58 PM
In six of his last 10 starts, Lidl has given up 2 ER or less with an average of nearly 8 IP in those six starts.

Perhaps you have it backwards?

Flip a coin 35 times and I can guarantee that it's not going to go even-odd heads/tails all the way through the cycle. So far this season, that's what Lidle has been- a coin flipping proposition.

Ravenlord
07-02-2004, 12:55 PM
Career
Split ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP
Pre-ASG 5.19 503.1 2.72 2.16 5.88 10.34 1.23 1.39
Post-ASG 3.45 363 1.94 2.55 4.96 7.91 0.72 1.16

This Year
Split ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP
Wins 2.69 42.2 4.75 1.01 4.79 7.82 0.76 0.98
Losses 7.98 29.1 2.86 2.15 6.14 21.79 2.15 2.66
ND 3.29 38.1 2.50 2.35 5.87 7.51 0.94 1.10
Total 4.73 110.1 2.52 2.20 5.55 9.14 1.14 1.26
interesting...in does indeed seem true Lidle is a second half pitcher. also, there seems to be a trend with him that the less he strikes hitters out, the more successful he is. wonder if that's just a coincidence or something more?

Raisor
08-04-2004, 07:21 AM
Just thought I'd be a jerk and bump this thread back up.

:mhcky21:

KronoRed
08-04-2004, 07:24 AM
I was thinking about this thread :MandJ:

remdog
08-04-2004, 09:12 AM
Well, at least you're honest about it Phil. :p:

Rem

zombie-a-go-go
08-04-2004, 09:15 AM
Just thought I'd be a jerk and bump this thread back up.

:mhcky21:

Just play nice... please.

Eric_Davis
08-04-2004, 09:52 AM
It's alright. Lidle was just following in line with the rest of the players. At least he shows up and doesn't get hurt all the time, though I'm sure that would be better for many of you. Then you could have Van Poppel and Bong starting instead. Oh, wait, he's hurt, too.

RedsRule30
08-04-2004, 10:25 AM
Lidle is pitching really bad. Good thing Dan O didn't give him a contract extension.

If Paul Wilson leaves as a free agent, then that will really hurt.

princeton
08-04-2004, 11:32 AM
I didn't like the signing-- with this defense we need K's from a pitcher-- but for a brief moment in June I thought that it might work out

I bow to that more constant basher of Lidle, M2.

M2
08-04-2004, 12:12 PM
I bow to that more constant basher of Lidle, M2.

For me, the frustrating part with Lidle ended once the games started. He's been what I expected and I can't fault him for that.

My only issue with Lidle at this time is I wouldn't under any circumstances bring him back in 2005 (an idea that was still be bounced around until recently).

On the bright side, hopefully the Reds learn from the Lidle signing and avoid similar mistakes in the future. Perhaps JimBo's chief fault was blind spot recidivism. Maybe DanO will prove more adept at self-diagnosis.

Quick observation on Lidle, he'd been a second half pitcher in years where he'd experienced a moderate first half workload. The Jays rode him hard early last season (125.1 pre All-Star IP) as did the Reds this season (121.1 pre All-Star IP). For a guy whose season high IP is 192.2 that's just too rough a ride. A radically different usage pattern (as compared to his glory days in Oakland) has produced radically different results.

Aronchis
08-04-2004, 12:44 PM
The Reds didn't learn anything, because they already knew. Notice he has a 1 year contract. He was filler from the start, overpayed, but a filler non the less.

When you only have about 3 million to spend and little to deal, DanO seemed to prefer a method of satisfying budget by spending it on a retread worth far less instead of just not spending it at all which would have happened.

Lidle appeared burned out by early July, a bit surprising from a total career standpoint, but not in the context of his recent seasons.

westofyou
08-04-2004, 01:04 PM
The Reds didn't learn anything, because they already knew. Notice he has a 1 year contract. He was filler from the start, overpayed, but a filler non the less.

That's how I saw him, a bridge an inning eater and an excuse to keep any young guy down in the ML so they could control his workload.

Of course the plan also had the Reds tanking early on and there was no plans on the Local Weekly's running stories about how the Reds needed to GET player as opposed to trading players, they didn't figure that they would have big crowds in June either.

The general customer base has 2 months of baseball to watch and it looks like the Reds gambled that the swag they could get for Wilson and Lidle wasn't worth the bad press and empty seats and reduced revenue.

Doesn't help build a team any quicker than many would want, but it also doesn't burn the Reds Brand down anymore with the casual fan, who by the way far outnumber the type of fan I am, and they bring their kids and actually buy stuff at the stadium

M2
08-04-2004, 01:41 PM
That's how I saw him, a bridge an inning eater and an excuse to keep any young guy down in the ML so they could control his workload.

While I see the value in that and I certainly agree that it makes some sense to keep fannies in the seats, I still don't think Lidle was a wise move.

First, and I think this is a point on which everyone can agree, the Reds surely thought Lidle would be far better than he has been. I was of the opinion that it was a mistake to think that, but there's no way the Reds would have tossed that sum at Lidle if they expected anything like what we've seen to date.

Second, if there was any team in baseball that didn't need to take a modest cash reserve and plunk it down on an inning eater, it was the Reds. To a build a good rotation, you have to start with a single pitcher. That's just the mechanics of it. Five guys don't land in your lap in one fell swoop. DanO had $3-4M in his pocket and entire offseason to figure out how to get that first guy. That should have been his top priority. Maybe it would have involved moving a little more salary so that the team could afford a keeper, but the Lidle signing, to me, was the definitive "We're not getting a lot better this year" statement.

It's the kind of choice the Reds have to stop making if they want to improve the club. When you're in a small market and not armed with a stockpile of hot prospects, you're not going to get golden opportunities where it's easy to snag the kinds of players you need. No question about it, it's a hard job that DanO's got. Yet it's imperative to succeed with the chances you get. He had some money and some time and it's the kind of situation a Reds GM has to make work. Lidle was a misstep that shouldn't be repeated.

MWM
08-04-2004, 01:47 PM
Hey Raisor, where's the Jason Lane thread? :roll:

westofyou
08-04-2004, 01:57 PM
but the Lidle signing, to me, was the definitive "We're not getting a lot better this year" statement.

That was just part of it, of course they weren't thinking about getting better this year. This was a stability year, last year was a to the earth slash and burn job. This year was seeds, shoots and looking at what needs to be coaxed and what doesn't.

There are old hangovers in the organization (including 2 at the top) and in the wake of Bowdens departure instability on many fronts in the organization from the ML team to the MLB team, Allen didn't want DO, DO didn't want Miley.

Expecting anymore than what this team has rung out of the season prior to this year was an execise in futility.

I feel the organizations real goal was polishing up the brand more than the product. Lindner is getting on in years and his tax breaks are going to decrease (as far as the Reds go) it's easier to flip a healthy organization than one that is teetering.

Of course I could be wrong about my take.

RedsRule30
08-04-2004, 02:00 PM
The Cardinals and Cubs are turning into the Yankees/Red Sox of the NL. The Cubs payroll will approach 100 million with Nomar. The Cardinals have a payroll about 82 million.

The Reds are doomed to finish behind the Cubs/Cardinals/Astros every year with a 45 million or less payroll.


The Reds are basically a team that only signs retreads. Not good.

Krusty
08-04-2004, 02:03 PM
Financially, the Reds are probably in better shape than anytime during the Marge Schott era. And they have an idea that success for the club for the longhaul can only be achieve by building a solid farm system like the Twins and Rangers. Only problem is it takes time and patience....something Reds fans are running short on.

Boss-Hog
08-04-2004, 02:13 PM
Financially, the Reds are probably in better shape than anytime during the Marge Schott era. And they have an idea that success for the club for the longhaul can only be achieve by building a solid farm system like the Twins and Rangers. Only problem is it takes time and patience....something Reds fans are running short on.Krusty,

This has been repeated several times on the board but if you buy into the idea that all improvement is going to come from an overhauled farm system, (though drafting a HS pitcher #1 was a terrible way to start) take note of Reds asst. GM Dean Taylor's fate in Milwaukee. Taylor was able to put together one of the top farm systems in baseball during his time with the Brewers; unfortunately, because the big league team stunk so badly, and he did little to improve it, he was fired after a few years. If DanO is putting all his eggs in one basket with the notion that improving the farm system is the only way to improve the major league team over time, he, like Taylor won't be around if and when those prospects are ready. As I mentioned, that isn't even taking into account his questionable methods for 'improving' the farm system to this point.

Boss

Aronchis
08-04-2004, 02:18 PM
I would take the "stability" point and wonder if Allen,Naehring,Miley and Gullet are all purged after this season. Would fit the bill, if anything, Allen may have resigned after his choice for GM wasn't hired, but for the sake of stability and timing, stayed on another year.

It will be interesting to watch who is in control of the franchise and product going ahead with its future after this season.

traderumor
08-04-2004, 02:36 PM
Krusty,

This has been repeated several times on the board but if you buy into the idea that all improvement is going to come from an overhauled farm system, (though drafting a HS pitcher #1 was a terrible way to start) take note of Reds asst. GM Dean Taylor's fate in Milwaukee. Taylor was able to put together one of the top farm systems in baseball during his time with the Brewers; unfortunately, because the big league team stunk so badly, and he did little to improve it, he was fired after a few years. If DanO is putting all his eggs in one basket with the notion that improving the farm system is the only way to improve the major league team over time, he, like Taylor won't be around if and when those prospects are ready. As I mentioned, that isn't even taking into account his questionable methods for 'improving' the farm system to this point.

BossAnd I don't think DanO is putting all his eggs in one basket, but he has laid down the foundation of how he plans to rebuild the Reds into a consistent top of the division legitimate contender. Maybe I am giving him too much credit, but an empty farm system and very little money to spend shouldn't lead anyone to think that they can overhaul the major league team in one or two seasons. My guess is that his gameplan is to pull weeds, plant seeds, and water even through next year so that he can shoot for it and have a dramatically improved product when his contract comes up for renewal after the 2006 season. Then he will let the chips fall where they may because he cannot control whether that will be good enough for his bosses. Now, I don't envy his job because they seem to be further away than that, but fortunes can also change pretty quickly in this game.

As far as personnel changes, I like making all the changes Aronchis suggested except Miley should be kept around. I also fire Sammy Ellis to add to the list.

M2
08-04-2004, 03:15 PM
Expecting anymore than what this team has rung out of the season prior to this year was an execise in futility.

I feel the organizations real goal was polishing up the brand more than the product. Lindner is getting on in years and his tax breaks are going to decrease (as far as the Reds go) it's easier to flip a healthy organization than one that is teetering.

I'll tackle the second one first. You might be right. Maybe Carl's looking to sell and put out the marching orders to stand pat as much as possible to create the seeming of stability. Yet they can't bluff forever. Sooner or later the organization has to start working its roster and addressing its core problems or the overall perception of the team will be that it's less stable than ever, utterly lacking in direction and leadership. IMO, if they field a stinker next year any brand maintenance they did this year evaporates.

On the first one, I don't buy into the rolling "well, this wasn't the time" rationale. The Reds could do that ad infinitum. In fact, it's the easy thing to do. Part of what makes Billy Beane so remarkable is that he never bought into that line of thinking. The notion of getting players to improve his club never has been perceived as an exercise in futility. So, while it certainly wasn't an expectation Reds leadership sought to address this past offseason, it remains an expectation of necessity. Either they start meeting that expectation or things don't get better. I emphasize start because obviously this isn't a simple, one-step process. The Reds may have to plod in the right direction, but, regardless of the pace, that's the direction in which they have to embark.

And if they see Cory Lidle up ahead, turn around because they're headed 180-degrees in the wrong direction.

westofyou
08-04-2004, 03:28 PM
Part of what makes Billy Beane so remarkable is that he never bought into that line of thinking. The notion of getting players to improve his club never has been perceived as an exercise in futility.

Beanes first year on the job.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/1998_trans.shtml

Eric_Davis
08-04-2004, 03:41 PM
You guys...I wouldn't mind if you let this thread die. ;)

ochre
08-04-2004, 03:44 PM
Bip!

top6
08-04-2004, 06:20 PM
i guess i'm an idiot... when did Dean Taylor sign w/ the Reds? that's very good - was it before the season?