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Krusty
07-23-2004, 11:01 PM
Some great ones here but I want to know who is the best Cincinnati Reds player (current or retired) in the history of the Reds?

billybroome
07-23-2004, 11:03 PM
Peter Edward Rose.

KronoRed
07-23-2004, 11:05 PM
Joe Morgan

savafan
07-23-2004, 11:06 PM
Tough question, as there are so many variables. Position player or pitcher? You also have to take into consideration the eras in which guys played. In 1987, Eric Davis had one of the best seasons of any Reds player ever, and were it not for injuries, he was primed to be one of the greatest, IMO

westofyou
07-23-2004, 11:07 PM
Johnny Bench.

Changed the postion, had no defensive equal and could hit like no other catcher, talented enough to play CF and dwarf the averages of his peers at catcher.

Chip R
07-23-2004, 11:09 PM
Brandon Larson ;)

savafan
07-23-2004, 11:12 PM
Brandon Larson ;)

Chip, you have now proven to have little to no knowledge of the Reds.

Chip, you're fired.*




*Trademark Donald Trump, 2004

:evil:

ShadyCoveRed
07-23-2004, 11:13 PM
Rose

LINEDRIVER
07-23-2004, 11:18 PM
Frank Robinson

Number_Fourteen
07-23-2004, 11:18 PM
Peter Edward Rose
Frank Robinson
Johnny Bench

In no particular order.

Phoenix
07-23-2004, 11:29 PM
Johnny Bench.

1. Greatest catcher of all-time
2. Rookie of the Year
3. Two-time MVP
4. 10 time all-star
5. 10 consecutive Gold Gloves (at the most demanding defensive position)
6. Two-time HR champ
7. Three-time RBI champ
8. World Series MVP (1976)
9. Played his ENTIRE CAREER AS A CINCINNATI RED.

RFS62
07-23-2004, 11:33 PM
Johnny Bench.

Changed the postion, had no defensive equal and could hit like no other catcher, talented enough to play CF and dwarf the averages of his peers at catcher.



Without question.

BRETTFAVRE
07-23-2004, 11:35 PM
Glen Campbelll says Elvis and Johnny Cash were the two greatest live performers he ever saw " and nobody else is even close" . The greatest Reds player is Johnny Bench and nobody else is even close. I was there the night he hit two homers in Yankee Stadium in the fourth game of the 76 World Series. Remember , we swept the Yankees.

johngalt
07-23-2004, 11:35 PM
Pete Rose
Johnny Bench
Frank Robinson
Edd Roush
Joe Morgan

M2
07-23-2004, 11:39 PM
I lean towards Bench, but I can't argue with anyone who'd say Morgan or Rose.

Robinson falls just short, IMO, because he spent too many of his prime years in another city.

Larkin would get fifth-place from me.

roby
07-23-2004, 11:40 PM
Pete Rose hands down...with frank Robinson a close second (although we missed many of his best years thanks to GM Bill DeWitt).

Shaggy Sanchez
07-23-2004, 11:44 PM
Since he was my all time favorite player I am bound to say Eric Davis but trying not to be biased I will have to go with Johnny Bench.

Puffy
07-24-2004, 12:04 AM
Ed Armbrister

Great bunter.

Dom Heffner
07-24-2004, 12:31 AM
Davis was good, but he wasn't close to Bench, Morgan, Rose, Robinson or Kal Daniels.

Okay that last part was a joke.

Two Reds that I loved even though they broke my heart? Kevin Mitchell and Ron Gant.

On a side note- anyone ever look at old pictures of George Foster? The dude had the tiniest arms in baseball and still belted 52 homers one year.

BCubb2003
07-24-2004, 01:06 AM
Frank Robinson and Joe Morgan are 1 and 2 in OPS. But then, Dmitri Young is No. 8 and Reggie Sanders is No. 10.

If you need to score runs, you need to consider Bid McPhee.

Dave Concepcion has as many RBIs as Barry Larkin does.

What about the best player ever who played even a little bit with the Reds? Griffey? Seaver? Mathewson? Thorpe?

missionhockey21
07-24-2004, 01:41 AM
Joe Morgan.

Ben from Cincy
07-24-2004, 01:46 AM
With all this talk of Frank Robinson, only one name comes to mind...Milt Pappas. :cry:

Red in Chicago
07-24-2004, 01:56 AM
rose

westofyou
07-24-2004, 01:59 AM
Frank Robinson and Joe Morgan are 1 and 2 in OPS. But then, Dmitri Young is No. 8 and Reggie Sanders is No. 10.

If you need to score runs, you need to consider Bid McPhee.

Dave Concepcion has as many RBIs as Barry Larkin does.

What about the best player ever who played even a little bit with the Reds? Griffey? Seaver? Mathewson? Thorpe?

Best Reds vs position average 3000 ab's min

CINCINNATI REDS
CAREER
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
GAMES displayed only--not a sorting criteria

AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB G
1 Ernie Lombardi .043 .311 .268 3980 1203
2 Edd Roush .041 .331 .290 5384 1399
3 Jake Beckley .041 .325 .283 3465 879
4 Pete Rose .040 .307 .267 10934 2722
5 Barry Larkin .040 .295 .255 7591 2069
6 Heine Groh .032 .298 .266 4439 1211
7 Johnny Temple .031 .292 .260 3629 978
8 Joe Morgan .029 .288 .259 4008 1154
9 Ted Kluszewski .027 .302 .275 4961 1339
10 Frank Robinson .026 .303 .276 5527 1502

EXTRA BASE HITS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB G
1 Johnny Bench 277 794 517 7658 2158
T2 Barry Larkin 206 689 483 7591 2069
T2 Frank Robinson 206 692 486 5527 1502
4 Joe Morgan 181 399 218 4008 1154
5 Tony Perez 161 682 521 6846 1948
6 George Foster 137 488 351 4454 1253
7 Vada Pinson 126 624 498 6335 1565
8 Eric Davis 114 360 246 3272 985
T9 Ted Kluszewski 111 518 407 4961 1339
T9 Pete Rose 111 868 757 10934 2722

OBA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB G
1 Joe Morgan .091 .415 .324 4008 1154
2 Barry Larkin .054 .371 .317 7591 2069
3 Heine Groh .053 .378 .325 4439 1211
4 Frank Robinson .047 .389 .342 5527 1502
5 Pete Rose .045 .379 .334 10934 2722
6 Johnny Temple .043 .371 .328 3629 978
7 Miller Huggins .043 .362 .319 2818 783
8 Ernie Lombardi .033 .359 .326 3980 1203
9 Jake Beckley .033 .375 .342 3465 879
10 Eric Davis .031 .367 .336 3272 985

OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB G
1 Joe Morgan .215 .885 .670 4008 1154
2 Frank Robinson .151 .943 .792 5527 1502
3 Eric Davis .144 .877 .734 3272 985
4 Barry Larkin .140 .817 .677 7591 2069
5 Ernie Lombardi .129 .828 .699 3980 1203
6 Johnny Bench .127 .817 .690 7658 2158
7 George Foster .112 .870 .759 4454 1253
8 Jake Beckley .107 .818 .712 3465 879
9 Heine Groh .102 .772 .670 4439 1211
10 Edd Roush .087 .839 .752 5384 1399

RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB G
1 Joe Morgan 4.22 8.18 3.96 4008 1154
2 Frank Robinson 2.45 7.88 5.42 5527 1502
3 Barry Larkin 2.35 6.28 3.93 7591 2069
4 Eric Davis 2.19 7.05 4.85 3272 985
5 Jake Beckley 1.71 7.13 5.42 3465 879
6 Johnny Bench 1.56 5.55 3.99 7658 2158
7 Heine Groh 1.55 5.55 4.00 4439 1211
8 Ernie Lombardi 1.50 5.77 4.28 3980 1203
9 Pete Rose 1.48 6.08 4.61 10934 2722
10 George Foster 1.35 6.39 5.03 4454 1253

SECONDARY AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB G
1 Joe Morgan .287 .482 .195 4008 1154
2 Eric Davis .194 .459 .265 3272 985
3 Frank Robinson .121 .397 .276 5527 1502
4 Barry Larkin .105 .309 .204 7591 2069
5 Johnny Bench .104 .328 .224 7658 2158
6 Bob Bescher .085 .356 .271 2807 745
7 Reggie Sanders .076 .358 .282 2885 805
8 George Foster .076 .338 .262 4454 1253
9 Lonny Frey .067 .260 .193 3533 941
10 Wally Post .066 .318 .251 3013 896

SLG DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB G
1 Joe Morgan .124 .470 .346 4008 1154
2 Eric Davis .112 .510 .398 3272 985
3 Johnny Bench .106 .476 .369 7658 2158
4 Frank Robinson .104 .554 .450 5527 1502
5 George Foster .098 .514 .416 4454 1253
6 Ernie Lombardi .096 .469 .373 3980 1203
7 Barry Larkin .086 .446 .360 7591 2069
8 Ted Kluszewski .077 .512 .436 4961 1339
9 Jake Beckley .074 .443 .369 3465 879
10 Tony Perez .066 .474 .408 6846 1948

TOTAL BASES DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB G
1 Johnny Bench 894 3644 2750 7658 2158
2 Barry Larkin 803 3382 2579 7591 2069
3 Frank Robinson 651 3063 2412 5527 1502
4 Pete Rose 619 4645 4026 10934 2722
5 Joe Morgan 558 1885 1327 4008 1154
6 Tony Perez 534 3246 2712 6846 1948
7 George Foster 481 2289 1808 4454 1253
8 Ted Kluszewski 480 2542 2062 4961 1339
9 Ernie Lombardi 456 1866 1410 3980 1203
10 Vada Pinson 409 2973 2564 6335 1565

CINCINNATI REDS
CAREER
MODERN (1900-)

INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
WINNING PERCENTAGE displayed only--not a sorting criteria

BASERUNNERS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE IP PCT
1 Red Lucas 1.88 11.07 12.95 1769 .524
2 Noodles Hahn 1.74 10.42 12.16 1678.1 .553
3 Gary Nolan 1.67 10.31 11.98 1657 .621
4 Tom Seaver 1.47 10.65 12.12 1085.2 .620
5 Jose Rijo 1.35 10.80 12.15 1478 .614
6 Dolf Luque 1.32 11.46 12.78 2669 .502
7 Ken Raffensberger 1.31 11.42 12.73 1490 .473
8 Eppa Rixey 1.30 11.72 13.01 2890 .547
9 Paul Derringer 1.29 11.25 12.54 2616 .518
10 Don Gullett 1.23 10.94 12.17 1188 .674

ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE IP PCT
1 Jose Rijo 0.99 2.83 3.81 1478 .614
2 Clay Carroll 0.82 2.73 3.55 856.2 .623
3 Dolf Luque 0.78 3.09 3.87 2669 .502
4 Bucky Walters 0.74 2.93 3.67 2355 .599
5 Eppa Rixey 0.73 3.33 4.05 2890 .547
6 Noodles Hahn 0.67 2.49 3.15 1678.1 .553
7 Ewell Blackwell 0.61 3.31 3.92 1282 .506
8 Don Gullett 0.57 3.03 3.60 1188 .674
9 Gary Nolan 0.53 3.01 3.55 1657 .621
10 Fred Toney 0.51 2.18 2.69 1000 .546

STRIKEOUTS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE IP PCT
1 Mario Soto 2.12 7.54 5.42 1730.1 .521
2 Jim Maloney 2.07 7.88 5.81 1819 .623
3 Johnny Vander Meer 2.01 5.55 3.55 2027 .500
4 Ewell Blackwell 1.90 5.75 3.85 1282 .506
5 Jakie May 1.80 4.65 2.85 1030 .466
6 Jose Rijo 1.62 7.62 6.00 1478 .614
7 Hod Eller 0.96 3.98 3.02 862 .604
8 Tom Seaver 0.92 6.06 5.14 1085.2 .620
9 Fred Norman 0.74 5.91 5.17 1315 .570
10 Noodles Hahn 0.67 4.05 3.38 1678.1 .553

WINS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE IP PCT
1 Jim Maloney 33 134 101 1819 .623
2 Bucky Walters 30 160 130 2355 .599
3 Don Gullett 25 91 66 1188 .674
4 Clay Carroll 23 71 48 856.2 .623
5 Gary Nolan 18 110 92 1657 .621
6 Eppa Rixey 18 179 161 2890 .547
7 Tom Browning 17 123 106 1911 .583
8 Jack Billingham 17 87 70 1270 .580
9 Paul Derringer 16 161 145 2616 .518
10 Pete Donohue 16 127 111 1996 .536

Mitri
07-24-2004, 03:30 AM
Pete Rose.

GAC
07-24-2004, 06:20 AM
Pete Rose

then Bench and Robinson. And then Tony Perez would be in the top 5 IMO.

RedsBaron
07-24-2004, 07:02 AM
In terms of peak value, Joe Morgan. From 1972 through 1976, especially 1975-76, Morgan was IMO the greatest Red ever. Johnny Bench and Frank Robinson would be 2nd and 3rd.
From 1972 through 1976 Morgan had Win Shares per season of 39, 40, 37, 44 and 37. Bench's best five year run was between 1970 and 1974: 34, 19, 37, 26 and 34. Robinson had a run with the Reds between 1961 and 1965 of 34, 41, 23, 33 and 26 Win Shares. Pete Rose had a run between 1968 and 1972 of 32, 37, 29, 28 and 32 Win Shares, then Rose ripped off another five years between 1973 and 1977 of 34, 27, 31, 30 and 23.
Career value: Pete Rose, with 547 Win Shares (462 with the Reds). Morgan's career total was 512 (262 with the Reds) and Bench's was 356 (all with the Reds). Frank Robinson had 519 career Win Shares, 252 of which came as a Red.

37red
07-24-2004, 07:26 AM
what is diff in the one scale and win share in the other?

Ohioballplayer
07-24-2004, 07:46 AM
1. Pete Rose - Charlie Hustle
2. Johnny Bench
3. Joe Morgan
4. Frank robinson
:GAC:

buckeyenut
07-24-2004, 07:58 AM
If the question is best player while he was a Red, i think Bench is tops followed by Morgan, Rose and Robinson.

If the question is best player to ever play for the Reds even for a short period of time, I would say that is Robinson, followed by Griffey, then Bench. The Seattle years were so absolutely amazing for Jr that he barely jumps Bench in my mind in this one despite his recent injury struggles.

RANDY IN INDY
07-24-2004, 09:02 AM
I would have a hard time chosing between Bench and Robinson.

Larkin411
07-24-2004, 09:24 AM
Joe Morgan. Although, of course, Barry is my sentimental favorite and I would regard him as the best shortstop Cincinnati ever had.

macro
07-24-2004, 09:32 AM
Johnny Bench, and no one else is really close. All the reasons have already been given...

Phoenix
07-24-2004, 10:24 AM
In terms of peak value, Joe Morgan. From 1972 through 1976, especially 1975-76, Morgan was IMO the greatest Red ever. Johnny Bench and Frank Robinson would be 2nd and 3rd.
From 1972 through 1976 Morgan had Win Shares per season of 39, 40, 37, 44 and 37. Bench's best five year run was between 1970 and 1974: 34, 19, 37, 26 and 34. Robinson had a run with the Reds between 1961 and 1965 of 34, 41, 23, 33 and 26 Win Shares. Pete Rose had a run between 1968 and 1972 of 32, 37, 29, 28 and 32 Win Shares, then Rose ripped off another five years between 1973 and 1977 of 34, 27, 31, 30 and 23.
Career value: Pete Rose, with 547 Win Shares (462 with the Reds). Morgan's career total was 512 (262 with the Reds) and Bench's was 356 (all with the Reds). Frank Robinson had 519 career Win Shares, 252 of which came as a Red.

The Win Shares concept in an interesting one RedsBaron. But what does it score for defense? Not only was Bench the best defensive catcher in baseball from '68-'78, there was a large margin between #1 and #2. This at a time when baserunning had so much more importance than it does today and Bench was able to cut those would-be stealers down.

Joe Morgan and Frank Robinson were obviously great, but they didn't spend enough time with the Reds. Especially Robinson who went on to have so many great years with the Orioles. Pete Rose is #2 in my book, behind Bench because Rose was more one-dimensional and left the Reds in '79 for more money with the Phillies.

cincinnati chili
07-24-2004, 10:29 AM
It's close. I'd probably take Morgan or Robinson's best five years over Bench's best five years. But I'd certainly take Bench's best 10 years over Morgan's best 10 years. It's all a question of "peak" vs. longevity. They were all three one-in-a-million type of performers.

RedFanAlways1966
07-24-2004, 10:37 AM
Put me in the "without question" group for... JOHNNY BENCH.

Yachtzee
07-24-2004, 10:48 AM
My grandfather, who first started following the Reds back in the days of Chick Hafey and Kiki Cuyler, said Joe Morgan was the best best player he'd ever seen.

I think Bench's greatness lies not only in his hitting, but his redefinition of catching on the defensive side. But I'm biased because Bench was my favorite player when I first started following the Reds.

So I declare it a tie, Joe Morgan and Johnny Bench. :)

realreds1
07-24-2004, 11:16 AM
Eric Davis... in the summer of 1987.

For us nine-year-old Reds fans that year, there wasn't a better ballplayer in the whole galaxy. :thumbup:

RedsBaron
07-24-2004, 12:02 PM
The Win Shares concept in an interesting one RedsBaron. But what does it score for defense? Not only was Bench the best defensive catcher in baseball from '68-'78, there was a large margin between #1 and #2. This at a time when baserunning had so much more importance than it does today and Bench was able to cut those would-be stealers down.

Joe Morgan and Frank Robinson were obviously great, but they didn't spend enough time with the Reds. Especially Robinson who went on to have so many great years with the Orioles. Pete Rose is #2 in my book, behind Bench because Rose was more one-dimensional and left the Reds in '79 for more money with the Phillies.
Phoenix, I know that Bill James's Win Shares method includes defense in the overall rating, so Morgan's higher numbers in his peak years, as compared to Bench, should include both their offensive and defensive contributions. You'd have to read James's book on Win Shares for an explanation, and even then you might wind up like me-liking the theory without fully understanding or being able to explain it.
James has admitted that it is difficult for sabermetrics to accurately measure the defense of catchers. Catchers' putouts are largely a function of how many strikeouts a pitching staff produces, something not all that much in a catcher's control. Catchers' assists are greatly affected by how many runners are willing to challenge the catcher's arm-after Bench had been in the NL a few months opposing teams generally abandoned the stolen base when playing the Reds. For these and other reasons Total Baseball (not a James's work) has abysmally failed to accurately measure Bench's defensive abilities, at one point ranking him as a terrible defensive catcher. In truth, from everything I've read and seen, Bench is probably the greatest defensive catcher ever, rivaled only by Ivan Rodriguez.

RedRoser
07-24-2004, 12:03 PM
Gotta be "that scrappy little kid from the wrong side of the tracks"---(from My Prison Without Bars)

#14 Peter Edward Rose

4256 Hits
07-24-2004, 12:33 PM
I would say Bench; Rose 2nd because some of his good years were not in Cincy.

Johnny Footstool
07-24-2004, 12:36 PM
Bench by a length over Morgan.

GradyHatton
07-24-2004, 12:44 PM
Limiting candidates to players I have actually seen, my vote goes to:

Frank Robinson

though I wouldn't begin to argue with any who say:

Johnny Bench

then again I wouldn't argue with any other choices either.....well, Ed Armbrister is a bit of a reach.

My Dad would say Ernie Lombardi. Wish he were still here to do just that.

No votes yet for Grady Hatton????? :confused:

Number_Fourteen
07-24-2004, 03:05 PM
or Eppa Rixey?

Tony Cloninger
07-24-2004, 03:42 PM
How about best pitcher??

For great 1 year it was Dolf Luque in 1923 i think. Otal Baseball said it was a Top 10 type year in history of modern baseball.

Bucky Walters had a great run 1939-1944.

Best stuff might have been Jim Maloney.

Austin_Kearns
07-24-2004, 03:49 PM
1. Pete Rose
2. Joe Morgan
3. Johnny Bench
4. Frank Robinson
5. Sean Casey

Number_Fourteen
07-24-2004, 04:02 PM
1. Pete Rose
2. Joe Morgan
3. Johnny Bench
4. Frank Robinson
5. Sean Casey

Casey? Surely you've overlooked that Perez guy in this instance. :eek:

jmcclain19
07-24-2004, 04:11 PM
Bench.

Rose and Morgan would be No. 1 for a lot of teams, but sorry, Bench is the best, hands down.

Redny
07-24-2004, 04:26 PM
Bench, then Rose, Morgan, and Robinson.

Wheelhouse
07-24-2004, 04:59 PM
Rose.

DeadRedinCT
07-24-2004, 07:34 PM
What? No votes for Dave van Gorder? :RedinDC:

BoydsOfSummer
07-24-2004, 07:38 PM
When I grow up,I wanna be Johnny Bench.

gonelong
07-25-2004, 10:12 PM
IMO, Bench.

GL

Matt700wlw
07-25-2004, 10:14 PM
Tracy Jones :mhcky21: :mhcky21: :roll: :roll: :mhcky21:

BuckeyeRedleg
07-25-2004, 10:38 PM
Best:

1A. Johnny Bench

1B. Joe Morgan


Most exciting:

Eric Davis (1987)

vic715
07-26-2004, 02:12 AM
Frank Robinson is the best I've seen in my 43 years watching the Reds.