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ifreelgood
07-25-2004, 05:20 PM
While he hits some pretty homeruns, he is not very good in other aspects of the game.

1)Big and Bulky, too slow in the field.
2)Strikes out WAY too much, for someone who is VERY selective at the plate.
3)Horrid with runners in scoring position
4)Is not a .300 hitter
5)Not a very good baserunner or fielder.

you all may criticize me if you want.....but i think we should trade him while is value is pretty high, and he is not injured. I think Willy Mo and Austin Kearns have much more upside than Dunn. Just my opinion after watching baseball closely for 25 years.

westofyou
07-25-2004, 05:23 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/sports/baseball/25score.html?pagewanted=all

Baseball's New Generation of Benchmarks
By DAVID LEONHARDT

Published: July 25, 2004


You probably learned about the benchmark from the same person who first taught you baseball, and it is in your mind every time you look at the back of a baseball card, read a box score or glance at a scoreboard. It could hardly be simpler: a good hitter has a .300 batting average or better.

Like many fans, though, you have come to realize that batting average is a flawed measure of performance. It ignores walks and power hitting, two crucial and increasingly common parts of the game. But you still cannot help judging hitters by that nice round number. Who knows what a good on-base percentage or slugging percentage is, anyway?

Well, the time has come for a new generation of benchmarks. They can be simple, and they can exist alongside trusty .300. There can even be a version that marks truly bad hitters instead of outstanding ones - a Mendoza line for the 21st century, if you will. (Who was Mendoza? Read on.)

The reason people care about statistics in the first place is that they can describe reality, like a hitter's ability, a person's health or a day's weather, more clearly than words alone. The .300 mark, on the other hand, creates a fuzzy picture of baseball.

It makes Ichiro Suzuki and Paul Lo Duca look more valuable than they really are and gives short shrift to Jorge Posada and Jim Edmonds. It has helped keep Dick Allen (career average .292) out of the Hall of Fame.

On-base percentage may sound a tad esoteric, but it is a more basic concept than its better-known cousin. It measures how often a hitter succeeds on the most fundamental level: by reaching base, through hit, walk or hit by pitch.

"The currency of baseball is outs," Chris Antonetti, assistant general manager of the Indians, said. "On-base percentage is the percentage of times a guy is not using up one of your 27 outs."

That's why it does a better job than batting average in describing how well a hitter helps his team. The Yankees and the Blue Jays have nearly identical batting averages this season, for instance. But the Yankees' on-base percentage was 20 points higher, they had scored 103 more runs and they led the Blue Jays by 20Ĺ games entering yesterday.

On-base percentage is also a more useful tool for general managers trying to decide which players to sign. With all of the randomness that occurs when a bat strikes a ball and all the variation in fielding, a player's batting average often jumps around from year to year. On-base percentage is more consistent. A player with a good one this year is very likely to have a good one next year.

What, then, is a good one? Meet the new benchmarks.

THE .375 CLUB About 50 players a year, or nearly two a team, finish the season with a batting average above .300 these days. That is roughly the number of hitters who receive serious consideration for the All-Star team. Creating a similarly exclusive group for on-base percentage leads to the number .375.

The Astros' Jeff Bagwell (.385) is trying to get back into the club after falling out last season for the first time in more than a decade. Mark Bellhorn (.376) of the Red Sox is in the group despite a batting average below .270. The Rangers' leadoff hitter, Michael Young, is on the precipice. The Orioles' leadoff man, Brian Roberts, is far below it.

THE PEREZ LINE Mario Mendoza, a light-hitting shortstop in the 1970's and 80's, spent much of his career flirting with a .200 batting average.

He fell short in five of his nine seasons, but his valiant battles have been enshrined in history by the term Mendoza line, referring to a .200 average.

People generally credit George Brett with taking the term into the big time in 1980, when he said, ''The first thing I look for in the Sunday papers is who is below the Mendoza line."

Today's answer to Mendoza is Giants shortstop Neifi Perez, now flirting with an on-base percentage of .275 or worse for the third straight year. As is the case with the Mendoza line, only a handful of players - including the Expos' Tony Batista and the Marlins' Alex Gonzalez - lurk near the Perez line in any one season.

If one of them is on your favorite team, the front office is not doing its job. The free-agent market and the minor leagues are filled with inexpensive players who can reach base at least 30 percent of the time.

AN EVEN .500 Avoiding outs may be a hitter's primary job, but hitting for power counts, too. Like on-base percentage, slugging percentage - total bases divided by at-bats, or the average number of bases a hitter racks up each at-bat - is a better measure of somebody's ability to create runs than dowdy batting average is.

Slugging percentage is also far superior to runs batted in, which dress up mediocre hitters in good lineups to look like stars.

The benchmark that separates the best 50 hitters or so from the rest is a nice, round number: .500. To find the truly great hitters, look for the ones who meet both benchmarks of success. Barry Bonds is easily leading in both categories (.616 on-base, .779 slugging), on his way to a 15th straight season with at least .375 and .500. The only players with longer streaks are Babe Ruth (17 seasons), Ted Williams (17), Stan Musial (15) and Jimmie Foxx (15).

For now, on-base and slugging percentages are far easier to find on the Internet than in newspapers or on scoreboards. But that's changing. The Dodgers and the Giants began posting on-base percentages in their stadiums this year. The rest of baseball should follow. There is no point in focusing on batting average, or any statistic, at the expense of paying attention to the game.

GAC
07-25-2004, 05:25 PM
This thread is gonna be a good 5 or 6 pager! :lol:

RosieRed
07-25-2004, 05:29 PM
We might need to archive that NYT article.

westofyou
07-25-2004, 05:31 PM
We might need to archive that NYT article.

Nah..... it a lefty commie rag with destruction of all things on its agenda.

Chip R
07-25-2004, 05:32 PM
While he hits some pretty homeruns, he is not very good in other aspects of the game.

1)Big and Bulky, too slow in the field.
2)Strikes out WAY too much, for someone who is VERY selective at the plate.
3)Horrid with runners in scoring position
4)Is not a .300 hitter
5)Not a very good baserunner or fielder.

you all may criticize me if you want.....but i think we should trade him while is value is pretty high, and he is not injured. I think Willy Mo and Austin Kearns have much more upside than Dunn. Just my opinion after watching baseball closely for 25 years.I'm confused. His value is high but you list all these things that is wrong with him. One might infer from reading your post that his value is low and he isn't worth much at all.

redsfan30
07-25-2004, 05:32 PM
I agree and disagree. I don't think Adam Dunn will ever hit more than 30 homeruns in a year. How many years has he gotten to 25 or so by the All Star break only to end up with 27? This year, he has 26 now and if he gets to the 30 mark, I'll kiss Boss' feet in front of Great American Ball Park.

Our pitching is officially atrochios. Outside of Claussen we have ZERO talent coming up for the rotation. Dunn could fetch us a top pitching prospect, maybe two. I want someone who can throw 97 or 98 MPH. If you would trade him, that frees up a spot for Wily Mo.

If he would put it together however, he does have 50 homerun power. But considering he hits .250 and may never get above 30 homeruns, you just might have to look into getting a top prospect for him while you can.

Good debate starter.

SteelSD
07-25-2004, 05:36 PM
Adam Dunn- Situational Stats (Also titled- "Watch the rising OPS"):

None On: .933 OPS
Runners On: .988 OPS
RISP: .998 OPS
Men On/2 Out: 1.052 OPS (including a .311 BA)
RISP/2 Out: 1.204 OPS (including a .306 BA)
Close and Late: 1.270 OPS (including a .339 BA)

Adam Dunn- NL Rank 2004:

OBP: 8th
SLG: 13th
OPS: 12th
Runs Created: 9th
RC/27 Outs: 11th
Equivalent Average: 11th
Equivalent Runs: 6th
Runs Above Position: 11th

Chip R
07-25-2004, 05:38 PM
I agree and disagree. I don't think Adam Dunn will ever hit more than 30 homeruns in a year. How many years has he gotten to 25 or so by the All Star break only to end up with 27? This year, he has 26 now and if he gets to the 30 mark, I'll kiss Boss' feet in front of Great American Ball Park.
Now this thread needs to be archived. :lol:

WildWilly
07-25-2004, 05:38 PM
Get rid of Dunn!?! Send me some of what you're smoking. Dunn is a force to be reckoned with in the Reds lineup! He consistently works the pitcher until deep in the count, an example of a good hitter!

westofyou
07-25-2004, 05:40 PM
Mr Bulky made a fine catch today.

Isn't #1 and # 5 almost the same?

67% of Dunns AB's have been in the 5th or 6th slot, yet he is 2nd on the team in runs scored. There must be some great hitters behind him.

missionhockey21
07-25-2004, 06:00 PM
I am not even going to bother to make a lengthy response to this because eventually I know other posters here will. :p:

UKFlounder
07-25-2004, 06:12 PM
But if we're going to get rid of Dunn while his value is high, shouldn't we also get rid of Pena while HIS value his high? He strikes out a lot too, has trouble on defense, and is probably not a .300 hitter either, so since he has been on a hot streak, why not package him with Dunn.

GAC
07-25-2004, 06:32 PM
I'm confused. His value is high but you list all these things that is wrong with him. One might infer from reading your post that his value is low and he isn't worth much at all.

He's Dunn's agent! :lol: :lol:

Raisor
07-25-2004, 06:46 PM
Adam Dunn- Situational Stats (Also titled- "Watch the rising OPS"):

None On: .933 OPS
Runners On: .988 OPS
RISP: .998 OPS
Men On/2 Out: 1.052 OPS (including a .311 BA)
RISP/2 Out: 1.204 OPS (including a .306 BA)
Close and Late: 1.270 OPS (including a .339 BA)

Adam Dunn- NL Rank 2004:

OBP: 8th
SLG: 13th
OPS: 12th
Runs Created: 9th
RC/27 Outs: 11th
Equivalent Average: 11th
Equivalent Runs: 6th
Runs Above Position: 11th


Darn it Steel, you've stolen my gimmick!

guernsey
07-25-2004, 07:00 PM
Dayn Perry's (TSN) 2009 NL All-Stars:



OFó Adam Dunn, Reds, Age: 29
Dunn may not be the type of player who ages terribly well, but in 2009 he should still be one of the league's deadliest hitters. Critics of Dunn get overly tangled up in his low batting averages and gaudy strikeout totals. But he's good for 100-plus walks a year (he's on pace for 125 this season), and he hits for tremendous power. Throw in an underrated corner glove, and you've got a heck of a ballplayer. He'll win a couple of home run titles before he's done.


No, niether Austin Kearns nor WMP made the list.

RFS62
07-25-2004, 07:08 PM
Wow.

4256 Hits
07-25-2004, 07:55 PM
I can see DO seeing what he can get for him but the return better be much better than what Pirates got for Giles. Which was two ML ready potental stars including maybe the best young starting pitcher in the MLB.

Edskin
07-25-2004, 08:06 PM
Dunn needs to keep working, keep improving his weaknesses, but overall, the guy is a super talent. I am still in the club that believes he strikes out too much-- I'd like to see him cut down his whiffs at least a decent percentage. He's so strong that if he can figure out a way to make contact more often, good things are bound to happen.

But I love the fact that he draws walks and scores runs. I love the fact that pitcher's dance around him in a tight spot. I love the fact that he has the ability to go deep in any at bat.

The stat they showed the other night was alarming: Dunn has failed to score a runner from third w/ less than 2 out 20 of 26 times this year. His RBI totals are still a bit low. I understand the counter arguement to that-- that he isn't getting a ton of chances and/or is still getting on base in those situations. But he may need to swing at a hittable ball even if it's a tad out of the zone on occasion.

Those are fairly mild criticims though. Dunn needs to work hard in the off-season, work on his game, and slowly, he'll get better and better. Cut down his K's by 15%, make contact more consistently, and maybe look to be more agressive w/ RISP. That's where I think Dunn needs to improve. But overall, he has progressed nicely. He's a keeper...............

unless the right pitcher is offered. I'd trade ANYONE for a legit flamethrower. Anyone. This has got to stop. If it means cutting off our nose to spite our face, I'm willing to try it anyway.

Spring~Fields
07-25-2004, 08:31 PM
I thought that you were suppose to trade them when their value was high, won't Willy Mo make Dunn expendable in another year? Perhaps they could package him with Graves and get something the Reds really need a pitcher.

Aronchis
07-25-2004, 08:40 PM
So what team is Sean going to this week? Dunn,WMP and Kearns may be the next great slugging trio.

flyer85
07-25-2004, 10:29 PM
Get rid of while the value is high ... I think you meant Sean Casey.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-25-2004, 10:36 PM
I trade the whole team away before I trade Dunn.

Far East
07-25-2004, 10:55 PM
If the future is not now, then if and when the Reds' future comes to fruition, it will have to be today's 20-something year olds that constitute that optimal team we are hoping for.

Therefore, it should be tha elder statesmen -- not Dunn, Kearns, Pena, etc. -- who get traded for prospects or even younger (can we dare hope) impact players.

Theoretically that means Larkin should be the first go, but realistically that's not going to happen, so who's next? Jones, Casey, Graves, etc.

Every trade obviously also entails consideration as to who (from within the organization or without) can replace the exiting player and at what yearly salary price. But, all else being equal, the older guy should go.

Number_Fourteen
07-25-2004, 10:59 PM
Nah..... it a lefty commie rag with destruction of all things on its agenda.
:GAC:

Playadlc
07-25-2004, 11:14 PM
Oh my goodness.

Is there like an Adam Dunn discussion quota that this board has to hit every day or something?

RFS62
07-25-2004, 11:17 PM
How about if you consider that Adam Dunn will continue to improve for the next few years?

How about we consider how much better a hitter he is this year than he was last year, and how young he is?

How about we imagine how good he might become if he continues on his current trend?

Man, I'm tired of hearing Dunn get knocked. In spite of the fact that he's one of the most dominating offensive forces in baseball, he's a freakin' baby in terms of experience.

He's already a stud, and he's only going to get better.

jmcclain19
07-25-2004, 11:32 PM
Yeah, I'm all for getting rid of Dunn.

The last thing in the world the Reds need is a guy who can hit anywhere from 30-50 bombs a season and gets on base 40% of the time.

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/MMPH-E/253637.jpg

WVRedsFan
07-25-2004, 11:40 PM
This thread simply amazes me. :eek:

KronoRed
07-26-2004, 12:09 AM
And the week is complete..a little Dunn bashing on top of it all

I really think some of you will get your wish, Dunn will get a big raise this off season and then a ticket out of town, won't the Reds be SO much better off then... :mad:

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 03:01 AM
I knew i would get laughed at somewhat.......but im telling you all, he is NOT going to get much better (trade him while everyone thinks he is going to get that much better)..... This is about his 4th year in the league, and I personally think Willy Mo Pena has made more strides in the last year, than Adam Dunn has in 4 years. Im not saying he isn't any good, but I think that WMP and Kearns are all around better players.......(avg.,hr's, speed,baserunning, fielding) even though WMP has had some problems playing OF at times, but this is really his first Big league action. Laugh all you want, but if i was in the Front office, i would try to get a kings ransom for him while his value is still high. Dunn would probably bring more in a trade than any other players on the team at this point. And if you replace him in the lineup with WMP, you virtually come out even NOW, and WMP is going to get better over the next 4 years, plus you have whatever talent that Dunn brings in a trade. Im listing his faults, everyone has a weakness (except albert pujols), .....im not saying he isn't any good.....i think he is a very good player, but i would trade him NOW, because i don't think we need to give him another 4 years to "develop".....most good players do a bulk of their development during their first 4 years....after that, the develpmental curve is a whole lot less.

BCubb2003
07-26-2004, 03:14 AM
Adam Dunn is the same age as Felipe Lopez. He's four years younger than Brandon Larson. I'm all for buying low and selling high, but we forget that for all the time Dunn's been around, in baseball years he's just a big Baby Huey. I know we've watched him struggle, but my theory is that the cure is having Griffey and Kearns in the lineup.

Spring~Fields
07-26-2004, 03:16 AM
ifreelgood, I think that you are very close to being right and a visionary. Why not package Dunn with one of the bad contracts, Graves, Griffey etc. and try to get some decent pitching as a return and free up some cash. Dunn might be the next HR king but the Reds need pitching and have little to obtain it.

wheels
07-26-2004, 03:43 AM
They need both Springy and you know it.

How much more evidence needs to be presented before people wake up about Dunn?

What do you guys wnat from him? And why are some so eager to see him go?

It's utterly rediculous how people refuse to let FACTS get in the way of opinion.

FlyingPig
07-26-2004, 07:30 AM
For a minute I thought that original description was of Wily Mo and not Dunn..

I'd trade Pena before I would Dunn.

MikeS21
07-26-2004, 08:24 AM
Dunn would probably bring more in a trade than any other players on the team at this point. And if you replace him in the lineup with WMP, you virtually come out even NOW, and WMP is going to get better over the next 4 years, plus you have whatever talent that Dunn brings in a trade. Im listing his faults, everyone has a weakness (except albert pujols), .....im not saying he isn't any good.....i think he is a very good player, but i would trade him NOW, because i don't think we need to give him another 4 years to "develop"
Just for the fun of it, compare Adam Dunn's stats so far this year to Albert Pujol's stats.


G AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
Adam Dunn 98 336 60 89 19 0 26 186 58 73 120 4 0 .265 .402 .554 .956
Albert Pujols 93 352 84 114 27 0 28 225 72 54 28 5 3 .324 .413 .639 1.053
It seems to me that the important stats like HR's, OBP, and SLG, Adam Dunn is not that far away from Pujols. Would you trade Albert Pujols from your team?

westofyou
07-26-2004, 10:55 AM
I knew i would get laughed at somewhat.......but im telling you all, he is NOT going to get much better

How can we determine that your 25 years of watching baseball has been better spent than say my 36 years of watching baseball or some of the other folks on this board who have posted against your factless assertions?

What metrics and logic do you use for your player evaluation?

Raisor
07-26-2004, 11:10 AM
Let's just assume for a second that Dunn WON'T get any better then he is now.

Please tell me the downside of having a guy that's ONLY the 11th best offensive player in the NL this year.

Redsland
07-26-2004, 11:22 AM
Well, his batting average is kinda low. ;)

flyer85
07-26-2004, 11:23 AM
Well, his batting average is kinda low. ;)


And he strikes out too much.

creek14
07-26-2004, 11:23 AM
Well, his batting average is kinda low. ;)
:lol: :MandJ: :lol:

westofyou
07-26-2004, 11:26 AM
Let's just assume for a second that Dunn WON'T get any better then he is now.

Please tell me the downside of having a guy that's ONLY the 11th best offensive player in the NL this year.



RCAA--Runs created above average.

It's the difference between a player's RC total and the total for an average
player who used the same amount of his team's outs.
A negative RCAA indicates a below average player in this category.


NL RCAA

LEADERS
1 Barry Bonds 85
2 Bobby Abreu 46
3 J.D. Drew 44
4 Albert Pujols 43
5 Todd Helton 41
6 Jim Thome 40
7 Adam Dunn 36
T8 Lance Berkman 35
T8 Scott Rolen 35
T10 Adrian Beltre 34
T10 Sean Casey 34


REDS
Adam Dunn 36
Sean Casey 34
Ken Griffey Jr. 12
Wily Mo Pena 7
Barry Larkin 2
Ryan Freel 1
Jason LaRue 1
John Vander Wal 1
D'Angelo Jimenez 0
Ray Olmedo 0
Jason Romano -2
Austin Kearns -3
Corky Miller -3
Jermaine Clark -4
Brandon Larson -4
Jacob Cruz -5
Juan Castro -6
Tim Hummel -6
Felipe Lopez -6
Javier Valentin -9



OWP
1 Barry Bonds .926
2 J.D. Drew .784
3 Bobby Abreu .774
4 Albert Pujols .762
5 Jim Thome .756
6 Sean Casey .755
7 Adam Dunn .751
8 Adrian Beltre .739
9 Scott Rolen .739
10 Lance Berkman .737



RUNS CREATED/GAME
1 Barry Bonds 20.90
2 Todd Helton 11.32
3 J.D. Drew 10.38
4 Bobby Abreu 10.28
5 Jim Thome 9.72
6 Albert Pujols 9.63
7 Lance Berkman 9.58
8 Scott Rolen 9.00
9 Sean Casey 8.92
10 Adam Dunn 8.82

flyer85
07-26-2004, 11:28 AM
All you going to do with those stats is confuse people.

What his batting average? That's the most important thing. ;)

westofyou
07-26-2004, 11:38 AM
All you going to do with those stats is confuse people.

What his batting average? That's the most important thing. ;)

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/images/chadwick_henry_1.jpg


Why my good man it's in the .260 range.

Would you like to take in a match between the Beaneaters and the White Stockings this afternoon at South End Grounds?

The Beaneaters have a wonderful batsman by the name of Herman Long who once batted .300 3 years in a row!!

Bully!!!

Redsland
07-26-2004, 11:43 AM
That's a capital idea, WOY. Let me grab my top hat and walking stick and we can be off for the trolley.

westofyou
07-26-2004, 11:44 AM
That's a capital idea, WOY. Let me grab my top hat and walking stick and we can be off for the trolley.


http://www.newgenevacenter.org/portrait/roosevelt-t.jpg

BULLY!!!

After that let's talk reform... have you ever heard of Upton Sinclair?

Redsland
07-26-2004, 11:49 AM
I can't say that I have, but then it's difficult for me to find time to read, what with running the meat packing plant and hording my millions.

Does he have anything of interest to say?

KronoRed
07-26-2004, 11:52 AM
:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

OldXOhio
07-26-2004, 11:54 AM
Adam Dunn....takes up 2 parking spaces.

OldXOhio
07-26-2004, 12:06 PM
Adam Dunn.....borrow FeLo's soap and don't return it.

RosieRed
07-26-2004, 01:26 PM
Not to take this thread off-topic or anything ( ;) ) but Pujols has some crazy stats. I knew it before, but haven't looked at them in a while.

28 HRs ... and 28 Ks. :eek:

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 03:11 PM
As much as i hate the Cards and Pujols..............Adam Dunn doesn't even compare to Pujols. Sure his HR and OBP is similiar, but thats about it. You people keep thinking he is going to turn into Albert Pujols or something spectacular...........my thinking is that he has had 4 years of live action to develop, and frankly i havn't seen much difference in him between his 1st year and his 4th year, what makes you all think he is going to turn into the player that we all hoped he would be?

westofyou
07-26-2004, 03:16 PM
As much as i hate the Cards and Pujols..............Adam Dunn doesn't even compare to Pujols. Sure his HR and OBP is similiar, but thats about it. You people keep thinking he is going to turn into Albert Pujols or something spectacular...........my thinking is that he has had 4 years of live action to develop, and frankly i havn't seen much difference in him between his 1st year and his 4th year, what makes you all think he is going to turn into the player that we all hoped he would be?

Again.

What metrics and logic do you use for your player evaluation?

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 03:27 PM
Ive given my argument why i feel that he won't get MUCH better. He has had 4 years at the major league level to develop, and his status hasn't changed much from the first year to the fourth year. If you would've read about him 4 years ago it would probably read something like this "Exceptional talent, with alot of power, has a good eye at the plate, and walks alot, but his downside is that he strikes out alot, and does not hit for average. If he can correct his downside, he will be a perrinial all-star year in and year out"-----well, 4 years later, we are still waiting for him to be the player that we think he SHOULD be. That my friend is called NO development. What does he do NOW that he didn't do 4 years ago???? How has he developed????? What makes you think he is going to develop????? Please answer these questions, i am interested to see what kind of argument that i hear.

TRF
07-26-2004, 03:30 PM
unreal. by every reporting measure, Adam Dunn is in the top 10 in all of baseball for total offensive output. just how much better should he be?

westofyou
07-26-2004, 03:30 PM
Since 1970 only 5 players 25 and younger have had a .379 ob% and a .499 slg% (which is where Dunn stands today)


EXTRA BASE HITS EBH OBA SLG AB G
1 Ken Griffey Jr. 409 .379 .536 3440 917
2 Albert Pujols 259 .412 .613 1771 475
3 Manny Ramirez 247 .393 .546 1938 552
4 Will Clark 245 .380 .524 2100 582
5 Frank Thomas 235 .441 .561 1872 531
6 Adam Dunn 179 .379 .500 1496 438

HOMERUNS HR OBA SLG AB G
1 Ken Griffey Jr. 189 .379 .536 3440 917
2 Albert Pujols 114 .412 .613 1771 475
3 Manny Ramirez 109 .393 .546 1938 552
4 Frank Thomas 104 .441 .561 1872 531
5 Will Clark 98 .380 .524 2100 582
6 Adam Dunn 98 .379 .500 1496 438

OPS OPS OBA SLG AB G
1 Albert Pujols 1.025 .412 .613 1771 475
2 Frank Thomas 1.002 .441 .561 1872 531
3 Manny Ramirez .940 .393 .546 1938 552
4 Ken Griffey Jr. .915 .379 .536 3440 917
5 Will Clark .905 .380 .524 2100 582
6 Adam Dunn .884 .379 .500 1496 438

Eric_Davis
07-26-2004, 03:33 PM
Adam Dunn is too perfect for the GAB. He should retire a RED.

The sooner you get him over to first base, the better.

westofyou
07-26-2004, 03:53 PM
I guess .379/.499 under 25 isn't impressive enough.

So I'll drop it to a even lower number .369 / .480 and keep it under 25, and to maybe it more interesting we'll make it from 1930 - 2003 From one great hittting era, through the war, hitting era, pitching, blend, now. These are Dunns Peers



AGE <= 25

EXTRA BASE HITS EBH OBA SLG AB G
1 Alex Rodriguez 483 .378 .571 3758 952
2 Joe Medwick 433 .374 .564 3224 788
3 Hank Aaron 430 .372 .559 3524 886
4 Mickey Mantle 420 .427 .574 3418 952
5 Frank Robinson 413 .384 .561 3286 888
6 Ken Griffey Jr. 409 .379 .536 3440 917
7 Eddie Mathews 402 .388 .556 3206 880
8 Hal Trosky 400 .372 .559 3085 773
9 Joe DiMaggio 397 .402 .623 2827 686
10 Vladimir Guerrero 368 .378 .587 2755 731
11 Al Kaline 363 .372 .480 3919 1051
12 Jimmie Foxx 349 .434 .667 2235 595
13 Mel Ott 334 .411 .556 2746 745
14 Ted Williams 314 .481 .642 2104 586
15 Harlond Clift 304 .405 .496 2728 740
16 Arky Vaughan 302 .424 .491 3164 849
17 Stan Musial 301 .426 .551 2323 611
18 Willie Mays 297 .382 .584 2314 610
19 Dick Allen 287 .387 .558 2262 596
20 Scott Rolen 269 .375 .511 2196 593
21 Don Mattingly 264 .375 .539 2223 572
22 Albert Pujols 259 .412 .613 1771 475
23 Manny Ramirez 247 .393 .546 1938 552
T24 John Olerud 245 .397 .486 2213 660
T24 Will Clark 245 .380 .524 2100 582
26 Frank Thomas 235 .441 .561 1872 531
27 Charlie Keller 218 .421 .526 1949 541
28 Joe Cronin 199 .402 .495 1755 453

HOMERUNS HR OBA SLG AB G
1 Alex Rodriguez 241 .378 .571 3758 952
2 Eddie Mathews 222 .388 .556 3206 880
3 Mickey Mantle 207 .427 .574 3418 952
4 Frank Robinson 202 .384 .561 3286 888
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 189 .379 .536 3440 917
6 Hank Aaron 179 .372 .559 3524 886
7 Jimmie Foxx 173 .434 .667 2235 595
8 Vladimir Guerrero 170 .378 .587 2755 731
9 Joe DiMaggio 168 .402 .623 2827 686
10 Hal Trosky 155 .372 .559 3085 773
11 Willie Mays 152 .382 .584 2314 610
12 Mel Ott 150 .411 .556 2746 745
13 Al Kaline 140 .372 .480 3919 1051
14 Ted Williams 127 .481 .642 2104 586
15 Albert Pujols 114 .412 .613 1771 475
16 Dick Allen 112 .387 .558 2262 596
17 Joe Medwick 110 .374 .564 3224 788
18 Manny Ramirez 109 .393 .546 1938 552
T19 Harlond Clift 108 .405 .496 2728 740
T19 Scott Rolen 108 .375 .511 2196 593
21 Frank Thomas 104 .441 .561 1872 531
22 Will Clark 98 .380 .524 2100 582
23 Don Mattingly 93 .375 .539 2223 572
24 Charlie Keller 91 .421 .526 1949 541
25 John Olerud 83 .397 .486 2213 660
26 Arky Vaughan 58 .424 .491 3164 849
27 Stan Musial 52 .426 .551 2323 611
28 Joe Cronin 31 .402 .495 1755 453

OPS OPS OBA SLG AB G
1 Ted Williams 1.123 .481 .642 2104 586
2 Jimmie Foxx 1.101 .434 .667 2235 595
3 Albert Pujols 1.025 .412 .613 1771 475
4 Joe DiMaggio 1.025 .402 .623 2827 686
5 Frank Thomas 1.002 .441 .561 1872 531
6 Mickey Mantle 1.002 .427 .574 3418 952
7 Stan Musial .978 .426 .551 2323 611
8 Mel Ott .967 .411 .556 2746 745
9 Willie Mays .966 .382 .584 2314 610
10 Vladimir Guerrero .965 .378 .587 2755 731
11 Alex Rodriguez .949 .378 .571 3758 952
12 Charlie Keller .948 .421 .526 1949 541
13 Frank Robinson .946 .384 .561 3286 888
14 Dick Allen .945 .387 .558 2262 596
15 Eddie Mathews .943 .388 .556 3206 880
16 Manny Ramirez .940 .393 .546 1938 552
17 Joe Medwick .938 .374 .564 3224 788
18 Hank Aaron .931 .372 .559 3524 886
19 Hal Trosky .931 .372 .559 3085 773
20 Ken Griffey Jr. .915 .379 .536 3440 917
21 Arky Vaughan .915 .424 .491 3164 849
22 Don Mattingly .914 .375 .539 2223 572
23 Will Clark .905 .380 .524 2100 582
24 Harlond Clift .901 .405 .496 2728 740
25 Joe Cronin .896 .402 .495 1755 453
26 Scott Rolen .886 .375 .511 2196 593
27 John Olerud .883 .397 .486 2213 660
28 Al Kaline .851 .372 .480 3919 1051

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 03:55 PM
Guys, im not saying he isn't good. Ive said that in about all of my posts that he is good. The point you all are missing, is that he is NOT going to get much better, and while his value is real high, i say that we trade him for some QUALITY pitching, then plug WMP into his spot, and you don't have much of a dropoff at the plate, the ony difference is, that i see WMP developing much more than Adam Dunn will over the next few years. He has made more adjustments and strides in 1 year, than Adam Dunn has in 4. We add quality pitching, and basically have a wash in offensive stats. Im am not intentionally bashing Dunn, i like him. I just think that it would be better served to trade him for some good pitching while his Value is high. Thats the problem with many reds fans today, they want pitching, and know that we need pitching, but they don't want to give anything for it.

westofyou
07-26-2004, 04:04 PM
What part of the line below tells you that Pena won't "regress" like Dunn?


Willy Mo at 22 186 ab's .286 .343 .551 .894 - 61 K's 14 BB 15 HR's 23 Runs

Adam Dunn at 21 244 ab's .262 .371 .578 .949 - 74 K's 38 BB 19 HR's 54 Runs

Chip R
07-26-2004, 04:05 PM
Guys, im not saying he isn't good. Ive said that in about all of my posts that he is good.Actually, the only good thing you said about him was that he hits pretty home runs and his value is high. If I'm a GM why would I want him based on your evaluation? It'd be like a used car salesman telling me that the car he's showing me is a great car because it has four wheels but the suspension is bad, the brakes are shot, there's an oil leak, it has 150,000 miles on it and the carburator is horrible. Why would I buy that car? Because you told me it's a great car?

Eric_Davis
07-26-2004, 04:12 PM
Wasn't this park build for Ken Griffey Junior?

Wasn't it built for left-handed power, fly-ball hitters?

If we trade away power, trade away right-handers, not left-handers from this club.

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 04:31 PM
I don't think there will be much difference in Dunn and WMP at the plate. However i think that WMP has more speed, and will develop into a better fielder than Dunn. Plus i think that WMP has better bat speed than Dunn, which leads me to believe that he will become a better hitter as he becomes more disciplined at the plate.

chip, i never once said he sucked or wasn't any good. Im just pointing out that he IS good, and his VALUE is high right now because he IS good, but we have got someone just as good, that could develop into an even better player than Dunn, and we should trade Dunn while his value is high for some quality pitching.
Why should i not point out his faults......do you want me to say, that we should trade Adam Dunn because i think he can do no wrong, and that he would bring some great quality in a trade because he is so great? I was giving my reasons as to why trading him and the development of WMP could help this team in the long run.

Chip R
07-26-2004, 04:44 PM
While he hits some pretty homeruns, he is not very good in other aspects of the game.

1)Big and Bulky, too slow in the field.
2)Strikes out WAY too much, for someone who is VERY selective at the plate.
3)Horrid with runners in scoring position
4)Is not a .300 hitter
5)Not a very good baserunner or fielder.

you all may criticize me if you want.....but i think we should trade him while is value is pretty high, and he is not injured. I think Willy Mo and Austin Kearns have much more upside than Dunn. Just my opinion after watching baseball closely for 25 years.


chip, i never once said he sucked or wasn't any good.

Afraid your words betray you, ifreelgood.

Criticize him all you want. It doesn't matter to me. But you don't seem to understand what I keep asking you. Let's say you're the Reds' GM and I'm another team's GM. You are trying to trade Dunn to me and you are using your first post as your sales pitch. Now, put yourself in my shoes. Why would I want him based on that information? Why is his value so high? You certainly aren't convincing me to want to trade for him.

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 04:47 PM
let's just stay in denial, and think that this team can outslug people when healthy, and whine about how we need pitching, but heaven forbid, that someone points out that it might be in our advantage to part with a good player.

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 04:51 PM
Chip, reality check, this is redszone.....im not a gm and you are not. To answer your question.......i wouldn't tell the other gm, what i posted on redszone. I don't think that any gm discusses the faults of his own player when trying to deal him. I would sell the positives of Adam Dunn, as most anyone would if trying to deal him. don't even start with rediculous assumptions, that "if i were a gm and i read redszone".....that is a ludicrous argument.

westofyou
07-26-2004, 04:53 PM
as he becomes more disciplined at the plate.

That's the magic bullet of your whole theory.

At age 21 Dunn got on base 15% of the time with his discipline (non hit) at the the plate. Currently at age 24 it's at 19%. BTW that includes 11 IBB

WMP gets on base 8% of the time with his discipline.

At age 21 Dunn made an out 65% of the time he came to the plate, currently he makes 1 out 60% (well actually 59.8%) of the time he comes to the plate.

At 22 WMP Currently makes an out 66% of the time he comes to the plate.

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 04:54 PM
Criticize him all you want

Sorry if pointing out the obvious faults of a player is criticizing him, then i guess we are all guilty. Im sorry that i don't share the same red tinted glasses that you do. I am offering suggestions on how to make the team better.

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 04:58 PM
WOY....
Thats my whole point........i never once said that WMP is better at the plate....i said that he can develop into a better player, but for the most part their stats are identical, and it would be a wash.....i said wMP will probably be a better baserunner and fielder....which he should be. Why hold on to both players? My point is that we need to trade 1 (adam dunn) while his value is high, gather up some quality pitching, and lose basically nothing by plugging WMP into his spot.............Why can't you all see that?

Eric_Davis
07-26-2004, 04:58 PM
let's just stay in denial, and think that this team can outslug people when healthy, and whine about how we need pitching, but heaven forbid, that someone points out that it might be in our advantage to part with a good player.

Though I wouldn't trade Dunn because he's left-handed, I would trade any other player on the team for pitching.

Pitching is as important to baseball as the offensive and defensive lines are to football.

Chip R
07-26-2004, 05:02 PM
Chip, reality check, this is redszone.....im not a gm and you are not. To answer your question.......i wouldn't tell the other gm, what i posted on redszone. I don't think that any gm discusses the faults of his own player when trying to deal him. I would sell the positives of Adam Dunn, as most anyone would if trying to deal him. don't even start with rediculous assumptions, that "if i were a gm and i read redszone".....that is a ludicrous argument.
So besides hitting pretty homers what are his positives?

flyer85
07-26-2004, 05:15 PM
Such a stupid thread. Pena, Dunn and Kearns stay.

The discussion should be how to get rid of Jr and what we can get for casey.

westofyou
07-26-2004, 05:21 PM
So besides hitting pretty homers what are his positives?

Glad you asked Chip.

Not only can he knock the snot out of the ball and work the count but Adam can tell you how to get to Millions, pick up dinner, help you with your Fantasy Football team, get stuff off the highest shelves, regale you with football stories, name all of Toby Keiths songs, help you tie your tie, find your contacts and play Will Farrell in planned and unplanned skits.

Cedric
07-26-2004, 05:25 PM
I think people are being a little harsh to the guy. Calling this a "stupid" thread is a little tough. I think with out lack of pitching and the amount of people that whine about it, that people would be willing to at least here this guy out.

Eric_Davis
07-26-2004, 05:25 PM
Glad you asked Chip.

Not only can he knock the snot out of the ball and work the count but Adam can tell you how to get to Millions, pick up dinner, help you with your Fantasy Football team, get stuff off the highest shelves, regale you with football stories, name all of Toby Keiths songs, help you tie your tie, find your contacts and play Will Farrell in planned and unplanned skits.

And pose fear into an opposing catcher on a squeeze attempt. (But, Miley has to call it first.)

Chip R
07-26-2004, 05:33 PM
Glad you asked Chip.

Not only can he knock the snot out of the ball and work the count but Adam can tell you how to get to Millions, pick up dinner, help you with your Fantasy Football team, get stuff off the highest shelves, regale you with football stories, name all of Toby Keiths songs, help you tie your tie, find your contacts and play Will Farrell in planned and unplanned skits.
Thanks, woy. But I am wondering what Willie Loman has to say about him. He values him so highly but I still am not sure why. Perhaps he has a reading comprehension problem.

westofyou
07-26-2004, 05:35 PM
Thanks, woy. But I am wondering what Willie Loman has to say about him. He values him so highly but I still am not sure why. Perhaps he has a reading comprehension problem.

Hmmmmmm all I know is that When I was seventeen, I walked into the jungle. And by twenty-one, I walked out. And by God, I was rich!

Eric_Davis
07-26-2004, 05:44 PM
Hmmmmmm all I know is that When I was seventeen, I walked into the jungle. And by twenty-one, I walked out. And by God, I was rich!

I know it's not Wuthering Heights, but something like that.

Boss-Hog
07-26-2004, 06:04 PM
Such a stupid thread. Pena, Dunn and Kearns stay.

The discussion should be how to get rid of Jr and what we can get for casey.
You can debate the subject without calling someone's point of view "stupid", which is pretty much what you're doing by calling this a stupid thread.

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 06:06 PM
Ok, i give in......We should keep Dunn and try to outslug our opponents and try to win every game 10-9. Lets ignore that we need pitching, and that Adam Dunn is the one on our team that could bring some good quality young pitching. Let's go on and try to win games 10-9, 13-12, and then ***** and moan about how we need pitching every year. Well, we have a guy that is near his prime and maybe still on the upswing a little, that will bring in some good pitching, but we should probably hold onto him because he might just hit 5 or 10 more homers than his future replacement (WMP). It's this kind of thinking that hurts growth of the team.

Eric_Davis
07-26-2004, 10:36 PM
I can't read it all again, but somewhere in this thread was a comment about Wily Mo's defense being better than Dunn's. Loved that demonstration of it tonight.

NC Reds
07-26-2004, 11:00 PM
The topic of this thread is a complete joke. :thumbdn:

RosieRed
07-26-2004, 11:06 PM
The topic of this thread is a complete joke. :thumbdn:

Why? I don't want to see Dunn traded, but ifreelgood has a very valid point: In order to get good pitching soon, we would have to trade someone good, such as Dunn.

MWM
07-26-2004, 11:12 PM
Why? I don't want to see Dunn traded, but ifreelgood has a very valid point: In order to get good pitching soon, we would have to trade someone good, such as Dunn.

I would agree if that was his point, but his point was that Adam Dunn should be traded because he's not that good, or isn't getting any better.

NC Reds
07-26-2004, 11:13 PM
St. Louis should trade Albert Pujols. His trade value is high now.




No one denies the Reds need pitching. Giving up your best young slugger for any pitching prospects (what the Reds can afford to trade for) is too risky.

I stand by assessment that this is a bad joke.

ifreelgood
07-26-2004, 11:29 PM
I would agree if that was his point, but his point was that Adam Dunn should be traded because he's not that good, or isn't getting any better.

Sorry, that wasn't MY point. My point is that Adam Dunn is good, and his value is high right now. But my point is that his development has been slim to none. There has hardly been a change in him from year 1 to year 4.....so what makes my critics think he is going to develop that much more? Sure it's easy to say that Willy Mo sucks in the field right after a game where he drops a routine fly...........i have seen Dunn do the same thing before.....the only thing you have on your side is timing. There is no doubt that Willy Mo needs improvement in the field, but what i am saying is he has progressed much more in 1 year than Dunn has in 4. let's give WMP 4 years as a regular player to see how good he can get. I would say that he will be the same as Dunn all around, and the potential to be even better. MY argument is.......why keep 2 guys with the same potential? Why not trade 1 who is of HIGH value right now(Adam Dunn) for MUCH needed pitching? Why not......i would like to hear reasons why not instead of the same ol' argument. We complain each year about "if we just had some pitching"..............well my fellow reds friends, NOW is the time to change that trend. If not, you are looking at at least a couple more years of .500 ball, sure we will blast alot of homers for the fans......if thats what keeps you coming to the ballpark. Personally i would rather see us win.

westofyou
07-27-2004, 12:04 AM
what i am saying is he has progressed much more in 1 year than Dunn has in 4.


Yes, yes... but what we're saying is that YOU ARE WRONG.

I just stated that Dunn makes less outs than he did when he was 21, now your turn is to tell us why and how WMP has gotten better than Dunn.

Use some stats to prove your POV, instead of saying it over and over without one bit of proof.

Sean_CaseyRules
07-27-2004, 12:38 AM
[The discussion should be how to get rid of Jr and what we can get for casey.]


Im sorry to say but i agree on Dealing Griffey for maybe a starter and a releiver or a couple releivers, but trading Casey is just stupid, how can you trade a guy who is batting over .300 for his career, comming in with clutch hits with RISP, hes leading the reds in that catigory, also do not trade dunn he will become great in the years comming.

ifreelgood
07-27-2004, 12:43 AM
No one denies the Reds need pitching. Giving up your best young slugger for any pitching prospects (what the Reds can afford to trade for) is too risky.

I stand by assessment that this is a bad joke.

Not a bad joke, just an unpopular decision on how to make the Reds a better team. To get good players, you must trade good players. The last thing we need right now is a slugging outfielder. I say if you can trade a slugging outfielder for a really good pitcher, you pull the strings.

KronoRed
07-27-2004, 01:06 AM
If the last think we need is a "slugging outfielder" why not trade Pena since HE is more a "slugging outfielder" then Dunn

ifreelgood
07-27-2004, 01:36 AM
Dunn will bring more in a trade at this moment than Pena would.

Sean_CaseyRules
07-27-2004, 01:54 AM
Dunn will bring more in a trade at this moment than Pena would.
[/QUOTE]Dunn will bring more in a trade at this moment than Pena would.[QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2004, 10:43 AM
Anybody have any thoughts on Tony Gwynn's assessment of Adam Dunn last night?

creek14
07-27-2004, 10:51 AM
Anybody have any thoughts on Tony Gwynn's assessment of Adam Dunn last night?

What was it?

Chip R
07-27-2004, 11:03 AM
[The discussion should be how to get rid of Jr and what we can get for casey.]


Im sorry to say but i agree on Dealing Griffey for maybe a starter and a releiver or a couple releivers, but trading Casey is just stupid, how can you trade a guy who is batting over .300 for his career, comming in with clutch hits with RISP, hes leading the reds in that catigory, also do not trade dunn he will become great in the years comming.
Gosh, what an original idea. We sure have never discussed that before.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2004, 11:07 AM
While acknowledging Dunn's talent, potential, and homerun prowess, Gwynn basically said that Dunn's strikeout rate was unacceptable. He said that he needed to hit the ball where it was pitched and use all fields more, and if he would do this, it would only make him a better hitter. The comment came up that he was trying to make Dunn into a singles hitter, as he had been, and his comment was basically that you couldn't make someone with that much power a singles hitter and that it would probably cut down on his strikeout totals and enhance his overall power numbers. He again emphasized that Dunn would only become a better hitter by using the approach.

creek14
07-27-2004, 11:09 AM
While acknowledging Dunn's talent, potential, and homerun prowess, Gwynn basically said that Dunn's strikeout rate was unacceptable. He said that he needed to hit the ball where it was pitched and use all fields more, and if he would do this, it would only make him a better hitter. The comment came up that he was trying to make Dunn into a singles hitter, as he had been, and his comment was basically that you couldn't make someone with that much power a singles hitter and that it would probably cut down on his strikeout totals and enhance his overall power numbers. He again emphasized that Dunn would only become a better hitter by using the approach.
What does Gwynn know about hitting anyway? ;) ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2004, 11:12 AM
:MandJ:

Puffy
07-27-2004, 11:21 AM
What does Gwynn know about hitting anyway? ;) ;)

Yeah, he was just lucky most of the time!! :evil: ;)

But seriously, Gwynn was really echoing what Chambliss is trying to do with Pena, and I think Adam could benefit from as well. If he could just cut his strikeouts down to the 120-125 range per 162 game season, use the whole field, he would be McGwiresque.

Of course, that is easier said then done, and Adam is pretty good with striking out 185-190 times a year, so it might be tough right now. But in three or four years, if he can begin to cut down on the K's and use the whole field, he will be like McGwire for those final five years of his career.

Raisor
07-27-2004, 11:29 AM
People tend to look at what Dunn does wrong, but when you're one of the ten best hitters in the NL this season, there's a whole lot more he's doing right.

Of all the players on the Reds, Dunn is the one I worry the least about.

KronoRed
07-27-2004, 11:38 AM
People tend to look at what Dunn does wrong, but when you're one of the ten best hitters in the NL this season, there's a whole lot more he's doing right.

Of all the players on the Reds, Dunn is the one I worry the least about.

Right on! seems people get ticked he's not going to win the triple crown so they want him gone.

Jim Thome K's a lot, he's not too bad and when he was Adam's age he was not a starter

westofyou
07-27-2004, 11:45 AM
Tony has a point, that it won't change Dunn into a singles hitter, but maybe Thome?

Prior to this season Dunn K'd 1 time every 3 ab's, Thome 1 every 3.34, that's 19 K's over the season, maybe 6 more hits and 10 points on BA?

Dunn has worked on that part of his game as the season progressed, he tends to bottom out when he has bad months, the chief hit is in the SLG% department, mostly due to the lack of bat on ball during his AB's.

By Month

April - 2.44
May - 2.35
June -3.00
July - 3.33

Reggie Jackson K'd about 1 every 3.33 ab's during his first 1600 AB's, he was able to push that to 4.0 for his next 4700 AB's.

Any improvement by Dunn in K's will be small, baby step improvements, he'll always K at prodigous rates, you or I might notice a 10-15 % drop but the general public won't.

As for Gwynn, the man knows hitting for sure. I believe he has alot to offer any hitter in the game. Tony, though exists in a plane that doesn't intersect with todays game as much as the game of your grandfathers and their fathers.



CAREER
STRIKEOUTS <= 500
AVERAGE vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OPS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

AT BATS AB SO AVG OPS RC/G
1 Ty Cobb 11434 357 .094 .241 4.64
2 Honus Wagner 10430 327 .061 .176 3.60
3 Tris Speaker 10195 220 .070 .215 3.90
4 Eddie Collins 9948 286 .059 .143 2.54
5 Nap Lajoie 9589 85 .072 .169 3.09
6 Sam Crawford 9571 104 .049 .152 2.35
7 Jake Beckley 9526 270 .030 .085 1.15
8 Paul Waner 9459 376 .049 .130 2.40
9 Bill Buckner 9397 453 .025 .006 0.00
10 Tony Gwynn 9288 434 .073 .110 1.90


BTW for the season WMP K's 1/3.3 and for his career 1/3.0

For the season prior to July WMP was K'ing 1/2.9, In july he has pushed his average up more than 35 points whilst cutting his K's down to 1 every 4.8.

Hot streaks do wonders for the K rate (as does hitting every 1st pitch you can) I'd look for WMP to experience streaks that will be equally frustrating as Dunns, with a lower BB rate.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2004, 12:34 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with folks wanting Dunn to improve his game and cut down on the K's. I always thought the game was about constantly working on your weaknesses and trying to get better to make the ballclub better and to win. What do I know, anyway.............

Spring~Fields
07-27-2004, 12:51 PM
Of all the players on the Reds, Dunn is the one I worry the least about.


Raisors statement here makes me stop and think for awhile, I almost find the statement to be too much reality to handle being a Reds fan. I think yes Dunn and add a couple of other names Casey and maybe Kearns, but outside of those three on a team of 25 the rest certainly are something to worry about.

If we are honest none of the pitching is very good to date. We canít count on Larkin due to age and injuries; we canít count on Griffey because of reoccurring injuries. Reds catchers are nothing to write home about, they have no third basemen, and I am sure they could find an upgrade at second base, the rest canít seem to hit or field on a consistent basis so it looks like the Reds only have three players that they or the fans can count on, yes maybe Willy Mo if he gets a lot more fielding practice.

So Raisors remark makes me realize that the Reds really are in sorry shape. It makes me cringe to hear the Reds talk of rebuilding, knowing that drafts, trades and player development may take a very long time, many years, because a lot has to go right in a minor league world where most players donít make it leading up to the majors. It is really sad that the Reds only have 3-4 players that can really be counted on when we stop to think about it, consistently at the mlb level. Sure some will mention Freel or Jimenez, but I am sure upgrades could be found for those two.

Since quality pitching is so limited and spread thin amongst all the major league teams, isnít it fiction to think that anyone of the 3-4 decent players that the Reds have could get a really good pitcher in return?

So I think Raisor is right, there are 22-23 other players on the Reds to really worry about, and it seems insurmountable to fix for many years to come to me, with an organization with a tight budget. Alot of things will have to go almost perfect for them to fix the mess the FO has made.

flyer85
07-27-2004, 01:12 PM
Raisors statement here makes me stop and think for awhile, I almost find the statement to be too much reality to handle being a Reds fan. I think yes Dunn and add a couple of other names Casey and maybe Kearns, but outside of those three on a team of 25 the rest certainly are something to worry about.

If we are honest none of the pitching is very good to date. We canít count on Larkin due to age and injuries; we canít count on Griffey because of reoccurring injuries. Reds catchers are nothing to write home about, they have no third basemen, and I am sure they could find an upgrade at second base, the rest canít seem to hit or field on a consistent basis so it looks like the Reds only have three players that they or the fans can count on, yes maybe Willy Mo if he gets a lot more fielding practice.

So Raisors remark makes me realize that the Reds really are in sorry shape. It makes me cringe to hear the Reds talk of rebuilding, knowing that drafts, trades and player development may take a very long time, many years, because a lot has to go right in a minor league world where most players donít make it leading up to the majors. It is really sad that the Reds only have 3-4 players that can really be counted on when we stop to think about it, consistently at the mlb level. Sure some will mention Freel or Jimenez, but I am sure upgrades could be found for those two.

Since quality pitching is so limited and spread thin amongst all the major league teams, isnít it fiction to think that anyone of the 3-4 decent players that the Reds have could get a really good pitcher in return?

So I think Raisor is right, there are 22-23 other players on the Reds to really worry about, and it seems insurmountable to fix for many years to come to me, with an organization with a tight budget. Alot of things will have to go almost perfect for them to fix the mess the FO has made.

You nailed it. Better get the flame suit on.

There is not a lot of reason of for optimism in the next few years. The Reds arguably have both the worst rotation and worst pen in the NL this year.

The Reds only tradeable commodities are OF/1B for which there are no replace ments in the minors.

If they were to deal a Casey they might get two decent PROSPECTS(or suspects) in return. It is not a pretty picture as the organization is hamstrung(pun intended) by Jr's contract.

Krusty
07-27-2004, 01:13 PM
So, who would you deal......Casey or Dunn?

flyer85
07-27-2004, 01:19 PM
So, who would you deal......Casey or Dunn?

Let me see.

1) 30 year old 1B with an expensive contract and a bad injury history having a career season

or

2) 24 year old inexpensive OF whose closest PECOTA comparables are Jim THome and Fred Mcgriff(albeit a low correllation, Dunn is a bit of a historical anomaly).

Chip R
07-27-2004, 01:43 PM
Let me see.

1) 30 year old 1B with an expensive contract and a bad injury history having a career season

or

2) 24 year old inexpensive OF whose closest PECOTA comparables are Jim THome and Fred Mcgriff(albeit a low correllation, Dunn is a bit of a historical anomaly).
Which player will get you more in a trade? Look at things objectively and from the point of view of another team. Casey is no doubt having a great season so far. However, he's being paid almost $15M over the next two seasons and it's fairly likely that his option will be vested by next season. That's another $7-8M he'll be owed. In this day and age of clubs looking to get more value for their dollar, Casey may not be seen as a player that would fit that criteria. If Atlanta were inclined to increase payroll they might want him at 1st for them. But they won the division last year with a combination of Julio Franco and Robert Fick and this season they are in 1st place with Franco and a couple of other players manning 1st. It might be nice to have him but they sure don't need him.

Dunn is going to be cheap for another couple of years and he has great power. As noted he's one of the top 10 offensive players in the NL even though he strikes out a ton. Other GMs - especially the Moneyball boys - are going to salivate at the prospect of getting him.

I don't want to trade either player but if you're talking about maximizing return, Dunn is more valuable than Casey.

flyer85
07-27-2004, 01:52 PM
I don't want to trade either player but if you're talking about maximizing return, Dunn is more valuable than Casey.

Dunn is more valuable in a trade that Casey. We all agree on that.

However, that is the wrong question. The question is who is it easier to get equal value in return? If we trade Dunn we will aren unlikely to get equal value, it is as simple as that. If we deal Dunn we will most likely get a couple of pitching prospects(who might turn out to be more like suspects) and spend the next 10 years regretting the day we traded the 500 HR guy for a couple of nobodys.

I seriously doubt dealing Casey will come back to bite us in the a$$ but trading Dunn could for the next 10 years. We won't get as much for Casey but that is just the way it is. Casey is a high injury risk like Jr and I would prefer somebody else take the risk.

The days of Dunn being cheap are over as well. I would think he might make ~$3M next year as he is arbitration eligible.

Let someone else pay Sean $15M for the next 2 years and take the injury risk. His value will never be higher than right now and the future seems more likely to hold the 2001-2003 seasons rather than the 2004 season.

RosieRed
07-27-2004, 02:08 PM
In this day and age of clubs looking to get more value for their dollar, Casey may not be seen as a player that would fit that criteria. If Atlanta were inclined to increase payroll they might want him at 1st for them. But they won the division last year with a combination of Julio Franco and Robert Fick and this season they are in 1st place with Franco and a couple of other players manning 1st. It might be nice to have him but they sure don't need him.

I heard rumors (on BBTN perhaps?) that Atlanta is looking for a 1st baseman, and that they could "get creative" and find a way to take on some payroll. How much payroll, I have no idea, but when I heard the rumor I immediately started thinking "Does Atlanta have anything we'd want?"

Plus, just think: Casey could be reunited with Reitsma! ;)

KronoRed
07-27-2004, 02:14 PM
Can we have Furcal for Casey...please? :D

Sean_CaseyRules
07-27-2004, 02:20 PM
I have no idea why they would get rid rid of Casey, Casey would probally take a paycut to play here just like Wilson said that he would

Chip R
07-27-2004, 02:22 PM
I heard rumors (on BBTN perhaps?) that Atlanta is looking for a 1st baseman, and that they could "get creative" and find a way to take on some payroll. How much payroll, I have no idea, but when I heard the rumor I immediately started thinking "Does Atlanta have anything we'd want?"
deR onorK mentioned Furcal for Casey. That could be interesting to me.


Plus, just think: Casey could be reunited with Reitsma! ;)
Hugs all around!!! ;)

traderumor
07-27-2004, 03:10 PM
Here's our vocab. word for the day, inspired by our thread starter, ifreelgood.


OBSCURANTISM: Dictionary Entry and Meaning
Pronunciation: ub'skyŻrun`tizum

Matching Terms: obscurantist

WordNet Dictionary

Definition:

1. [n] a deliberate act intended to make something obscure
2. [n] a policy of opposition to enlightenment or the spread of knowledge


See Also: deceit, deception, dissembling, dissimulation, policy

OldXOhio
07-27-2004, 07:48 PM
How long before Adam Dunn decides to sell the Reds low?

KronoRed
07-28-2004, 04:51 AM
How long before Adam Dunn decides to sell the Reds low?

Dunn owns the Reds? :confused:

ifreelgood
07-28-2004, 08:44 PM
Ummmm....if we are going to put WMP down for dropping a flyball the other night......You must give him props for that catch tonight. Robbing Pujols of a HR. What was even more impressive was his throw into 2b after the catch.

Chip R
08-04-2004, 10:59 PM
I agree and disagree. I don't think Adam Dunn will ever hit more than 30 homeruns in a year. This year, he has 26 now and if he gets to the 30 mark, I'll kiss Boss' feet in front of Great American Ball Park.

Get those feet nice and clean, Boss. :lol:

OnBaseMachine
08-04-2004, 11:08 PM
Get those feet nice and clean, Boss. :lol:

:lol: :roll:

You beat me to it

Boss-Hog
08-04-2004, 11:25 PM
:lol:

Chip, remember the Bret Hart-Jerry Lawler thing like this?



Get those feet nice and clean, Boss. :lol:

M2
08-04-2004, 11:40 PM
Dunn could finish this season with 45 HR, 110 BI, a .280+ BA and an OPS of 1.000+ and people would still carp and moan about him while tossing bouquets at the Juan Castros of the world (for their hitting no less). Strikeouts freak a lot of people out and they just can't get past it.

Chip R
08-04-2004, 11:45 PM
:lol:

Chip, remember the Bret Hart-Jerry Lawler thing like this?
Yeah. You going to get your feet all smelly and gross and disgusting too? ;)

Cali Red
08-05-2004, 02:26 AM
I was one who was down on Adam Dunn last year, and I have to admit, I was wrong. He has continued to improve over every year. I am very pleased with how much he has improved just this year alone. And I can see that there is a very strong possibility that he will continue to improve over each year.

It sure would be nice to see what kind of numbers he would put up if he had the likes of a healthy Griffey and Kearns, along with the emergence of WMP, hitting around him for any length of time.

Great job Adam!! I'm glad the team didn't listen to me last year and decided to keep you. Go figure? :D

RedsBaron
08-05-2004, 07:53 AM
I agree and disagree. I don't think Adam Dunn will ever hit more than 30 homeruns in a year. How many years has he gotten to 25 or so by the All Star break only to end up with 27? This year, he has 26 now and if he gets to the 30 mark, I'll kiss Boss' feet in front of Great American Ball Park.


Adam Dunn hit home run numbers 30 and 31 last night. Pucker up. :mhcky21:

WVRed
08-05-2004, 09:16 AM
1)Big and Bulky, too slow in the field.

When you have had Russell Branyan playing LF, Adam Dunn looks more and more like Willie Mays out there. One of the positives to Dunn is that he has a CANNON in the OF. Name me a lot of players who can throw a ball from the OF to home plate from their knees?


2)Strikes out WAY too much, for someone who is VERY selective at the plate.

Dunn is also fifth in the majors in walks. If you look at Jim Thome's stats, he has struck out more in a season than Dunn, and still produced.


3)Horrid with runners in scoring position

I wouldnt say horrid, but he hits .287 with runners on base(not RISP). If you focus on average, yes, but his OPS is 1.007 with runners in scoring position.

Also, kudos to Steel on his OPS post. That is key to understanding Dunns value.


4)Is not a .300 hitter

Sammy Sosa's stats in select years-
1993-.261 33 HR 93 RBI
1995-.268 36 HR 119 RBI
1996-.273 40 HR 100 RBI
1997-.251 36 HR 119 RBI

Dunn is only as good as the players you put around him. I believe once the Reds fill a few holes and the key players begin to click, Dunn will hit a lot better than he is now.


5)Not a very good baserunner or fielder.

See point 1 on fielding. I think Dunn could be a better baserunner, and even be a stolen base threat if Miley would let him.


you all may criticize me if you want.....but i think we should trade him while is value is pretty high, and he is not injured. I think Willy Mo and Austin Kearns have much more upside than Dunn. Just my opinion after watching baseball closely for 25 years.

Im all for keeping Willy Mo Pena, but Kearns can go if he can get us a return like the Cardinals got for JD Drew. I realize with Kearns the potential is there, but he isnt the worlds greatest at staying healthy.

RedsRule30
08-05-2004, 09:21 AM
Dunn is a potential future HOFer. One of the youngest and fastest in history to reach 100 hrs.

Chip R
08-05-2004, 09:23 AM
When you have had Russell Branyan playing LF, Adam Dunn looks more and more like Willie Mays out there. One of the positives to Dunn is that he has a CANNON in the OF. Name me a lot of players who can throw a ball from the OF to home plate from their knees?Unfortunately he has problems throwing the ball from LF to 3rd base. He's got a great arm, no doubt about it. But you wouldn't know it by looking at the majority of his throws. I think I remember him saying recently that he can throw a football great but he's not so good with a baseball. But I do agree that he has improved considerably on his fielding over the past few years.

nottelling
08-05-2004, 09:23 AM
BTW, according to espn.com/mlb/bbtn/index?new (or s/t to that effect...) Dunn is major league leader in homers in "late and tight situations"

crector
08-05-2004, 09:43 AM
While he hits some pretty homeruns, he is not very good in other aspects of the game.

1)Big and Bulky, too slow in the field.
2)Strikes out WAY too much, for someone who is VERY selective at the plate.
3)Horrid with runners in scoring position
4)Is not a .300 hitter
5)Not a very good baserunner or fielder.

you all may criticize me if you want.....but i think we should trade him while is value is pretty high, and he is not injured. I think Willy Mo and Austin Kearns have much more upside than Dunn. Just my opinion after watching baseball closely for 25 years.

Oh sure, and if the unproven prospects that we get for Dunn pan out, you'll be demanding that they get traded as well. If WMP & Kearns ever demonstrate that "upside," you'll be demanding that they get traded as well.

Why is it that so many Reds fans who post to RedsZone can't stand to watch great players like Adam Dunn?

RedsBaron
08-05-2004, 09:56 AM
Oh sure, and if the unproven prospects that we get for Dunn pan out, you'll be demanding that they get traded as well. If WMP & Kearns ever demonstrate that "upside," you'll be demanding that they get traded as well.

Why is it that so many Reds fans who post to RedsZone can't stand to watch great players like Adam Dunn?
I've never understood that either. Some posters here almost seem to believe that the way to build a winning team is by trading away all your good players.

Eric_Davis
08-05-2004, 09:56 AM
Don't know why this was bumped, but I don't like it.

The GAB was made for Adam Dunn.

To watch Dunn go for 50 homeruns every year for the next 10 years is going to put fans in the stands and fear into opposing pitchers.

He's a 100-RBI machine for the next 10 years.

Untouchable. Completely untouchable. Well, I'd take Prior for him, but other than Prior, .....nahh...not even Prior, as the Cubs rushed him too soon and now there's concerns.

Eric_Davis
08-05-2004, 09:58 AM
Homer Bailey will be the last piece to a World Championship team in 2008. Dunn will hit 50, Pena will hit 50, and Kearns will hit .350 with 35 HR's.

We'll have the greatest outfield in the history of baseball. 135 HR's

Chip R
08-05-2004, 10:01 AM
Don't know why this was bumped, but I don't like it.


I don't think Adam Dunn will ever hit more than 30 homeruns in a year. This year, he has 26 now and if he gets to the 30 mark, I'll kiss Boss' feet in front of Great American Ball Park.

I bumped it up so we can see some feet kissing! :lol:

Eric_Davis
08-05-2004, 10:37 AM
Oh, OK. I forgot to add that I didn't read what was posted on it today.

Went right to my opinion. Boy, is that haughty or what?

Chip R
08-05-2004, 10:39 AM
Oh, OK. I forgot to add that I didn't read what was posted on it today.

Went right to my opinion. Boy, is that haughty or what?
Look before you leap. ;)

Roy Tucker
08-05-2004, 11:09 AM
I think one reason Dunn's name gets brought up so much is that he isn't like other players and that makes people uncomfortable.

We keep wanting to compare him to other players and it keeps coming around that he just doesn't compare all that well. Adam is just... Adam.

From Base Prospectus a week or so back...

"Perhaps most interesting for statheads--if frightening for Cincinnati faithful--is Dunn's low, low similarity index of 18. According to the BP Glossary, "a player with a score of 20 or lower is historically unusual," which, of course, most of us already figured out when the 6'6", 240-lb Dunn stole 19 bases in 2002. In another couple of weeks, Dunn will eclipse the 100-homer mark. At the age of 24."

And

"Similarity Index is a composite of the similarity scores of all of a player's comparables. Similarity index is an gauge of the player's historical uniqueness; a player with a score of 50 or higher has a very common typology, while a player with a score of 20 or lower is historically unusual"

flyer85
08-05-2004, 11:42 AM
"Similarity Index is a composite of the similarity scores of all of a player's comparables. Similarity index is an gauge of the player's historical uniqueness; a player with a score of 50 or higher has a very common typology, while a player with a score of 20 or lower is historically unusual"

WHen I read that article last week I was amazed. His closest PECOTA comps are Glaus, McGriff and Thome. Pretty good company. However, none of them are that similar. Dunn is an anomaly.

What does that mean for the future? The answer is that nobody really knows, they can only guess. It might be fun to be along for the ride.

westofyou
08-05-2004, 11:46 AM
Dunn is an anomaly

He's everything that Dave Nicholson hoped to be.

KronoRed
08-05-2004, 12:01 PM
We'll have the greatest outfield in the history of baseball. 135 HR's

Sounds good to me :thumbup:

westofyou
08-05-2004, 12:08 PM
We'll have the greatest outfield in the history of baseball. 135 HR's

61 Yankees had 137.

Johnny Footstool
08-05-2004, 12:31 PM
I think one reason Dunn's name gets brought up so much is that he isn't like other players and that makes people uncomfortable.

Which brings to mind that "True Outcomes" article someone posted a few months back. IIRC, basically, when Adam comes up to bat, the fielders become pretty irrelevant -- his rate of HR, Walks, and Ks (the "true outcomes") are historic.

M2
08-05-2004, 04:07 PM
BTW, according to espn.com/mlb/bbtn/index?new (or s/t to that effect...) Dunn is major league leader in homers in "late and tight situations"

I'm just waiting for someone to chime that he leads the majors in meaningless homers too.

traderumor
08-05-2004, 04:20 PM
I'm just waiting for someone to chime that he leads the majors in meaningless homers too.
Paging MWM. MWM, you're wanted on the white courtesy phone.

M2
08-05-2004, 04:24 PM
Paging MWM. MWM, you're wanted on the white courtesy phone.

Except he'd be saying it with the appropriate dosage of sarcasm attached.

nottelling
08-05-2004, 05:05 PM
I'm just waiting for someone to chime that he leads the majors in meaningless homers too.
i did that already ;)

i forgot which thread abotu his homers, i said something that i think he probably holds the record for most homers with least Ribbies :MandJ:

westofyou
08-05-2004, 05:10 PM
i did that already ;)

i forgot which thread abotu his homers, i said something that i think he probably holds the record for most homers with least Ribbies :MandJ:


Bonds hold that record

Barry Bonds 2000 49 106

nottelling
08-05-2004, 05:16 PM
yeah, but percentage wise. naturally bonds would hold that record since he has about 500 more homers than dunn...

westofyou
08-05-2004, 05:23 PM
yeah, but percentage wise. naturally bonds would hold that record since he has about 500 more homers than dunn...

Prior to this year he was at 23.7% of his RBI's were from HR's

Worse I can find was Bo Jackson at 29% then Balboni and then Kittle.

nottelling
08-05-2004, 05:29 PM
Can we figure out homeruns to RBIs from homeruns? Meaning: Who has the most homeruns with the least amount of ribbies resulting from those homers?

westofyou
08-05-2004, 05:44 PM
Can we figure out homeruns to RBIs from homeruns? Meaning: Who has the most homeruns with the least amount of ribbies resulting from those homers?

McGwire 41.2% 0f his RBI's were from HR's the least is Cap Anson with 5% and then Cobb with 6%

nottelling
08-05-2004, 05:47 PM
Thanks, but that's not what I'm asking. Out all of RBIs by homeruns, who has the least RBIs as opposed to his homeruns?

E.g. I have 30 homeruns, and 67 RBIs on those homeruns.
You have 42 homeruns, but 70 RBIs on those.

You have a lower HRBI (homer ribbie) count : homers than I do.

But they don't really have that stat in baseball do they?

M2
08-05-2004, 05:54 PM
Thanks, but that's not what I'm asking.

Actually I believe that's exactly what you were asking for. McGwire has the least amount of RBIs per homer. If he has the highest HR:RBI ratio then, conversely, he also has the lowest RBI:HR ratio.

westofyou
08-05-2004, 05:55 PM
Thanks, but that's not what I'm asking. Out all of RBIs by homeruns, who has the least RBIs as opposed to his homeruns?

E.g. I have 30 homeruns, and 67 RBIs on those homeruns.
You have 42 homeruns, but 70 RBIs on those.

You have a lower HRBI (homer ribbie) count : homers than I do.

But they don't really have that stat in baseball do they?

They have it, but it's available though the stat service.

nottelling
08-05-2004, 05:56 PM
McGwire 41.2% 0f his RBI's were from HR's the least is Cap Anson with 5% and then Cobb with 6%

but M2, these RBIs are of all his RBIs. I want to single out those from homeruns. That's what I'm asking.

Thanks WOY...I'll check it out if I can.

M2
08-05-2004, 06:04 PM
but M2, these RBIs are of all his RBIs. I want to single out those from homeruns. That's what I'm asking.

Sorry, my bad.

RedsRule30
08-05-2004, 06:10 PM
Adam Dunn could be the next Reds legend. The Reds need to sign him longterm after this season before it's too late.

If Dunn leaves as a free agent or is traded to save money, then the Reds are just the NL's version of the Kansas City Royals.


Barry Larkin is considered to be a Reds legend and future HOFer. Maybe Dunn is the next great Red?

nottelling
08-05-2004, 06:11 PM
Adam Dunn could be the next Reds legend. The Reds need to sign him longterm after this season before it's too late.

If Dunn leaves as a free agent or is traded to save money, then the Reds are just the NL's version of the Kansas City Royals.


Barry Larkin is considered to be a Reds legend and future HOFer. Maybe Dunn is the next great Red?

the only maybe is if he's a red. he better be, because he is on his way to beinga superplayer.

Terry
08-05-2004, 06:33 PM
How nice is it to see Adam have a big series RBI-wise? Woo!! :thumbup:

Barbarossa
08-06-2004, 12:33 PM
Such a stupid thread. Pena, Dunn and Kearns stay.

The discussion should be how to get rid of Jr and what we can get for casey.

Bingo! You keep your youngest and cheapest players and try to move your oldest and most expensive players. Griffey should be back in the American league. If we could move Jr then we could keep Casey. Graves value will be at an all time high also. So you might trade him during the off-season. If the baseball gods smile upon us Dunn, Kearns and Pena will be with us for a long time. :gac:

Oxilon
08-06-2004, 03:18 PM
Bingo! You keep your youngest and cheapest players and try to move your oldest and most expensive players. Griffey should be back in the American league. If we could move Jr then we could keep Casey. Graves value will be at an all time high also. So you might trade him during the off-season. If the baseball gods smile upon us Dunn, Kearns and Pena will be with us for a long time. :gac:

Wrong. You want to trade either Casey or Griffey? Fine. But not both. Trading both will just leave us with a hole either in the outfield or at 1B.

BTW-Trading Griffey is much easier said than done.

Hollcat
08-06-2004, 04:36 PM
Thanks, but that's not what I'm asking. Out all of RBIs by homeruns, who has the least RBIs as opposed to his homeruns?

E.g. I have 30 homeruns, and 67 RBIs on those homeruns.
You have 42 homeruns, but 70 RBIs on those.

You have a lower HRBI (homer ribbie) count : homers than I do.

But they don't really have that stat in baseball do they?

Is this what you are looking for?
Dunn has 21 solo HR's =21 rbi
5 2-run HR=10 rbi
6 3-run HR=18 rbi
TOTAL of 32Hr's resulting in 49 RBI

In comparison for this year
Thome has 32HR for 51 RBI
Pujols has 31 HR for 47 RBI
Beltre has 30 for 49 RBI

Red Leader
08-06-2004, 04:40 PM
Is this what you are looking for?
Dunn has 21 solo HR's =21 rbi
5 2-run HR=10 rbi
6 3-run HR=18 rbi
TOTAL of 32Hr's resulting in 49 RBI

In comparison for this year
Thome has 32HR for 51 RBI
Pujols has 31 HR for 47 RBI
Beltre has 30 for 49 RBI

I think she's looking for HR/RBI vs AB/RBI.

In other words, Dunn has 32 HR's, but 68 RBI on the season.

Sheffield has 25 HR, but 80 RBI, Victor Martinez has 17 RBI and 81 RBI.

In other words, I think she's saying that the majority of RBI that Dunn gets is via the long ball, and that he's not a good hitter with runners in scoring position.

airalex
08-06-2004, 04:44 PM
Don't know why this was bumped, but I don't like it.

The GAB was made for Adam Dunn.

To watch Dunn go for 50 homeruns every year for the next 10 years is going to put fans in the stands and fear into opposing pitchers.

He's a 100-RBI machine for the next 10 years.

Untouchable. Completely untouchable. Well, I'd take Prior for him, but other than Prior, .....nahh...not even Prior, as the Cubs rushed him too soon and now there's concerns.
I'd take Pujols for him :mhcky21:

nottelling
08-06-2004, 04:53 PM
Actually, RedLeader, Hollcat was on target. What I am looking for is the person with a hundred homers and the least amount of ribbies resulting from those homers.
Seems like Dunn hasn't been too shabby with run production from these homers. Last year I remember his spell of only solo homeruns.
Thanks, but is there a way I could find out about a more general scope of a 100 homers?

Moosie52
08-06-2004, 04:59 PM
As much as i hate the Cards and Pujols..............Adam Dunn doesn't even compare to Pujols.

Who does? Pujols may be the best player ever when it's all over.

traderumor
08-06-2004, 05:01 PM
Who does? Pujols may be the best player ever when it's all over.Nah, while his true age can be hid while he's in his late 20s, it will catch up with him when his body is late 30s instead of early 30s as the roster age shows.

alexad
08-06-2004, 05:04 PM
I agree and disagree. I don't think Adam Dunn will ever hit more than 30 homeruns in a year. How many years has he gotten to 25 or so by the All Star break only to end up with 27? This year, he has 26 now and if he gets to the 30 mark, I'll kiss Boss' feet in front of Great American Ball Park.

.


When will this event take place. I want to see it happen :feedback:

Raisor
08-06-2004, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by ifreelgood
As much as i hate the Cards and Pujols..............Adam Dunn doesn't even compare to Pujols
By the way, this season, Pujols is on pace to create approx 13 more runs then Dunn, which equates to about 2 extra runs a month, or another way to look at it, one extra run every 12 games.

I'd say that Dunn matches up pretty well with Al.

CrackerJack
08-06-2004, 06:17 PM
Has RedsFan30 gone into hiding? Is BossHog scuffing-up his shoes at the Boar's Nest in preparation? Does he need to send out Cletus and Rosco to round him up?

Raisor
08-06-2004, 06:24 PM
Does he need to send out Cletus and Rosco to round him up?

Forget Cletus, Rosco has FLASH~!

I love it, I love it..

http://www.jamesbest.com/fullsize/1.jpg

Eric_Davis
08-06-2004, 07:48 PM
61 Yankees had 137.

I cannot keep up with you.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

Eric_Davis
08-06-2004, 07:50 PM
Can we figure out homeruns to RBIs from homeruns? Meaning: Who has the most homeruns with the least amount of ribbies resulting from those homers?

If I had to guess. Dave Kingman?

MWM
08-07-2004, 12:46 AM
Paging MWM. MWM, you're wanted on the white courtesy phone.

:MandJ:

I can't believe I'm missing this. San Diego Red and Springy must be hating life right about now.

This traveling stuff is getting in the way of my RedsZone responsibilities. HRs galore this month and I'm not around for the all important smartass quesiton of whether they were meaningless or not. BTW, did the HRs count? Considering tey lost today by three and blew out the Giants yesterday, I'm guessing no. :mhcky21:

I'm in a hotel room in Tulsa right now and last night I was in the worst place in the entire US of A - Gallup, New Mexico.

One of these days I'll invest in some kind of contraption that lets me online while driving cross country.

Chip R
08-30-2004, 08:55 PM
Now that Adam has 40 HRs, does this mean RedsFan30 has to kiss Boss' feet twice? ;)

Cedric
08-30-2004, 09:22 PM
I just wish people like myself and other could stop with the smartass remarks about Dunn. I've ALWAYS been behind Dunn and so have MANY others here. But why with every homerun do people do the childish comments? People have different opinions than you, as wrong as they may be it's not worth making fun of them because they were wrong.

airalex
08-30-2004, 09:30 PM
Can we let this thread die PLEASE.

TeamBoone
08-30-2004, 09:40 PM
Cedric... it's all in fun. Just ask RedsFan30. Geez!

Cedric
08-30-2004, 09:56 PM
I find it annoying, i'm allowed an opinion. If you find something I do annoying you tell me everytime.

KittyDuran
08-30-2004, 10:20 PM
Cedric you need to read (if you haven't already) the famous or infamous thread where Falls City Beer wagers his first born if Jimmy Haynes wins 14 games. It's in the archives... "12 wins from sainthood" - it's a classic case of how a bold or an off-the-cuff remark/prediction can come back to bite...and become one of the funniest threads. :thumbup:

airalex
08-30-2004, 10:25 PM
Kitty, you need to lose that sig.

KittyDuran
08-30-2004, 10:37 PM
Kitty, you need to lose that sig. Why??? :confused:

Cedric
08-30-2004, 11:09 PM
I remember that one Kitty!

Falls City Beer
08-30-2004, 11:25 PM
Why??? :confused:


Kitty,

Don't change a word of your sig.

RosieRed
08-30-2004, 11:38 PM
Kitty, you need to lose that sig.

Sorry, but if WVRedsFan (I think that's who it is, my apologies if I'm wrong) can go around with the same exact sig except it says "How to remove John Kerry," then I think Kitty's sig is just fine.

Also sorry to interrupt this ages-old Adam Dunn discussion to talk about someone's sig. :)

paulrichjr
08-31-2004, 10:23 AM
Sorry, but if WVRedsFan (I think that's who it is, my apologies if I'm wrong) can go around with the same exact sig except it says "How to remove John Kerry," then I think Kitty's sig is just fine.

Also sorry to interrupt this ages-old Adam Dunn discussion to talk about someone's sig. :)

Not sure why this even has come up but I agree..... I happen to love Bush and think he has been a great leader especially during 09/11 but..... I think if someone wants to make a statement that is not completely tasteless then so be it. (Even if they are uninformed liberal nuts :D It's a joke people)

Cedric
08-31-2004, 10:28 AM
I think that guy was joking. Hopefully

paulrichjr
08-31-2004, 03:13 PM
I think that guy was joking. Hopefully

Yes I was that is why I said it is a joke after saying it. Politics can really get someone going because so many people wear their beliefs on their sleeve. I love to discuss it with someone that doesn't start throwing out remarks like I did (as a joke) because it like talking about the Reds is really fun. I truly do think that someone should be able to put a tasteful saying at the end without someone getting worked up. Hey mine is a very famous saying by GW himself. Anyway, I don't want to highjack this thread so forget trading Dunn unless you get Mulder and Harden in return.

WVRed
08-31-2004, 03:19 PM
Sorry, but if WVRedsFan (I think that's who it is, my apologies if I'm wrong) can go around with the same exact sig except it says "How to remove John Kerry," then I think Kitty's sig is just fine.

Also sorry to interrupt this ages-old Adam Dunn discussion to talk about someone's sig. :)

That was me.

RBA complained about it, so I decided to find a better one

Ah how that gasoline makes that fire go on longer.;)