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Stewie
07-31-2004, 12:01 AM
ComcastSportsNet here in Philadelphia is reporting that Jones and a minor leaguer have been traded to Philadelphia for Josh Hancock and Adnerson Machado.

flyer85
07-31-2004, 12:02 AM
for Josh Hancock and Anderson Machado(SS)

Big Klu
07-31-2004, 12:02 AM
Is Hancock a starter or a reliever?

SirFelixCat
07-31-2004, 12:02 AM
Hancock will report with the Reds, Machado to the minors.....



anyone know about these guys???

TeamBoone
07-31-2004, 12:03 AM
Just announced on FSN

Cedric
07-31-2004, 12:03 AM
Hancock is 26 pitcher right? And Machodi is middle infielder.

alexad
07-31-2004, 12:03 AM
ComcastSportsNet here in Philadelphia is reporting that Jones and a minor leaguer have been traded to Philadelphia for Josh Hancock and Adnerson Machado.

It was just announced on Fox Sports net with Hancock reporting to the Reds and Machado going to the minors.

What are these two guys stats. Is is a good trade. Hate to see Jones go, but it appears we got something.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 12:04 AM
Guess they had to wait for the rain delay.

flyer85
07-31-2004, 12:04 AM
Hancock must not be that good if he couldn't beat out Paul Abbott.

Stewie
07-31-2004, 12:04 AM
Machado is about 140 pounds. No power, not a great hitter, great speed, and great defensively.

Hancock is technically a starter, but right now he has been the long man out of the Phillies bullpen since Madson was put on the DL.

SirFelixCat
07-31-2004, 12:05 AM
SP:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7000

MWM
07-31-2004, 12:05 AM
guess that means no deal in Texas.

flyer85
07-31-2004, 12:05 AM
Machado is about 140 pounds. No power, not a great hitter, great speed, and great defensively.


Sounds kind of like Olmedo.

Redmachine2003
07-31-2004, 12:05 AM
Now come on DanO trade Wilson with this market.

Far East
07-31-2004, 12:05 AM
Hancock:

SEASON STATS | CAREER: BATTING | PITCHING | FIELDING
YEAR G GS IP H R HR BB SO K/9 W L Hld Sv BS BAA WHIP ERA
2004 4 2 9.0 13 9 3 3 5 5.00 0 1 0 0 0 .333 1.78 9.00

Larkin411
07-31-2004, 12:06 AM
Must've been handing out all that bubblegum during the rain delay in Philly. Charmed them :). I'm gonna miss Jones, he seemed like a good guy not to mention a good reliever.

o/t, Random fact= Hancock's birthday is the same as mine and Larkin's daughter, Brielle.

Marc D
07-31-2004, 12:07 AM
OK, someone give me a reason to like this deal. Anyone, anyone?

Doc. Scott
07-31-2004, 12:07 AM
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=FFID

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GAHC

http://www.baseballamerica.com/cgi-bin/statsfindplayer.pl?player=hancock%2C+josh

http://www.baseballamerica.com/cgi-bin/statsfindplayer.pl?player=machado%2C+andy

Stewie
07-31-2004, 12:07 AM
Hancock must not be that good if he couldn't beat out Paul Abbott.

The Phillies got Hancock from Boston for Jeremy Giambi. No, he isn't very good, but Ed Wade and Larry Bowa hate using young players. They always bring in old guys and say they provide "veteran leadership," which is why Abbott started ahead of Hancock. Plus, in Hancock's one start, he was awful. That was enough for Bowa never to use him again.

flyer85
07-31-2004, 12:07 AM
the ONLY thing impressive about Machado is 50 BBs in 292 ABs.

Super_Barry11
07-31-2004, 12:08 AM
I know I shouldn't be :cry2:... But I am... I'm definitely :cry2: right now. :( :( :(

Doc. Scott
07-31-2004, 12:08 AM
A guy worth basically zero for a possible rotation-filler and a 23-year-old shortstop with speed, glove, and plate discipline but no bat (yet)?

Actually, I like it just fine. Those two players are much more than I thought Jones would bring by himself.

Cedric
07-31-2004, 12:09 AM
Well with his speed that's a real good thing. But yeah, hitting .230 even with the walks isn't getting on base enough. Now if he could push that up to .260/.270 with his apparent patience we might have a good one. Considering that he's supposedly a great fielder.

Todd Jones doesn't exactly have a ton of value.

Raisor
07-31-2004, 12:10 AM
Hancock

Year Team League GP GS W L SV CG Sho IP H R ER HR BB K ERA
2004 Philadelphia NL 4 2 0 1 0 0 0 9.0 13 9 9 3 3 5 9.00
2003 Philadelphia NL 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 3.0 2 1 1 0 0 4 3.00
2003 Scranton/Wilkes-Barre AAA 28 27 10 9 0 2 2 165.0 147 78 71 14 46 122 3.86
2002 Boston AL 3 1 0 1 0 0 0 7.0 5 3 3 1 2 6 3.68
2002 Pawtucket AAA 8 8 4 2 0 0 0 44.0 39 20 17 2 26 29 3.45
2002 Trenton AA 15 14 3 4 1 2 0 84.0 82 40 34 9 18 69 3.61
2001 Trenton AA 24 24 8 6 0 0 0 130.0 138 60 53 8 37 119 3.65
2000 Sarasota A 26 24 5 10 0 1 0 143.0 164 89 71 9 37 95 4.45
1999 Augusta A 25 25 6 8 0 0 0 139.0 154 79 59 12 46 106 3.80
1998 Lowell A 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 4.0 5 2 1 0 4 4 2.25
1998 GCL Red Sox R 5 1 1 1 0 0 0 13.0 9 5 5 1 3 21 3.38
Total MLB 9 3 0 2 0 0 0 19.0 20 13 13 4 5 15 6.05
Total NL 6 2 0 1 0 0 0 12.0 15 10 10 3 3 9 7.50
Total AL 3 1 0 1 0 0 0 7.0 5 3 3 1 2 6 3.68
Total AAA 36 35 14 11 0 2 2 210.0 186 98 88 16 72 151 3.77
Total AA 39 38 11 10 1 2 0 215.0 220 100 87 17 55 188 3.63
Total A 52 50 11 19 0 1 0 287.0 323 170 131 21 87 205 4.10
Total R 5 1 1 1 0 0 0 13.0 9 5 5 1 3 21 3.37

Aronchis
07-31-2004, 12:10 AM
Another infielder with good D and takes walks, I am smelling a pattern eh?

Marc D
07-31-2004, 12:10 AM
So if we have a Machado, a Castro, an Olmedo and a Lopez do we have the entire franklin mint futility infielder collection?

RosieRed
07-31-2004, 12:10 AM
The minor leaguer the Reds are sending is OF Brad Correll, fyi.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2004, 12:10 AM
Perhaps the most pointless trade for trading sake I can recall. Neither player has even the remotest chance of being even the fringiest of major league performers. It would have been much smarter to hold on to Jones to save some of the wear on arms like Wagner's.

Playadlc
07-31-2004, 12:11 AM
Hopefully we can bring Todd back next year, Super Barry. I think he is a good guy to have on the club. He was pretty solid for us this season.

I agree with Scott, it is more than I thought we would get for Jones.

MWM
07-31-2004, 12:11 AM
I'd have rather just kept Jones.

Cedric
07-31-2004, 12:12 AM
You sure know everything about these two players FCB. How many times you watched them or even heard about them before two minutes ago?

Aronchis
07-31-2004, 12:12 AM
Perhaps the most pointless trade for trading sake I can recall. Neither player has even the remotest chance of being even the fringiest of major league performers. It would have been much smarter to hold on to Jones to save some of the wear on arms like Wagner's.

Mallette's of the world can do that.

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2004, 12:13 AM
What did you expect for Todd Jones??

Willie Mays?


Seriously........what's the big deal. Jones can be re-signed next year if they want him again.

What wear and tear? It's not like they are going to start abusing him just beacuse Jones is gone. Reidling basically takes over Jones role.

flyer85
07-31-2004, 12:13 AM
OK, someone give me a reason to like this deal. Anyone, anyone?

2 reasons
1) Todd Jones is having a 1 year aberration. He will revert back to 2000-2003 form next year so he isn't worth much.
2) He will be a free agent.

Machado if he learns to hit .260 could be an everyday SS. He walks a ton, has a little pop, great speed and is an outstanding defender at age 23.

Not much to like about Hancock. 4.00 ERA in AAA this year. Low K rate.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2004, 12:14 AM
Mallette's of the world can do that.


No, see, Jones could actually start AND finish a major league inning.

Aronchis
07-31-2004, 12:15 AM
No, see, Jones could actually start AND finish a major league inning.

Who cares, the season is over from a contending view. Jones has sucked the previous years and has slipped recently, ah, how we forget.

flyer85
07-31-2004, 12:15 AM
Another infielder with good D and takes walks, I am smelling a pattern eh?

Lopez and Olmedo don't take many walks.

Doc. Scott
07-31-2004, 12:17 AM
The minor leaguer the Reds are sending is OF Brad Correll, fyi.


http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=CADFC

http://www.baseballamerica.com/cgi-bin/statsfindplayer.pl?player=correll%2C+brad

Correll's a 23-year-old converted 3B who can do a little of everything, but does nothing spectacularly. He's kind of overshadowed in this organization. He's hitting .285/.357/.407 in Potomac; a classic low-round (29th) small-college (Limestone College!?) pick.

Aronchis
07-31-2004, 12:17 AM
Lopez and Olmedo don't take many walks.

Paul Janish, does a actually DanO pick. Olmedo and Lopez are Bowden era pickups.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2004, 12:17 AM
You sure know everything about these two players FCB. How many times you watched them or even heard about them before two minutes ago?

Well, Raisor just posted Hancock's career. See anything you like? I sure as hell don't.

And Machado's another in a long line of MI who get bats knocked out their hands.

The world is LOUSY with both types.

Redny
07-31-2004, 12:17 AM
Great, now who does the shaving cream pie in the face thing?

Cedric
07-31-2004, 12:18 AM
Yea, but what's the big deal about Jones? I'm not even arguing that the kids will be anything. But what's the use of keeping Jones for three months? At least take a small shot that Machado can work out.

flyer85
07-31-2004, 12:19 AM
Paul Janish, does a actually DanO pick. Olmedo and Lopez are Bowden era pickups.

Janish is in rookie ball. I like the good "D" high BB rate combo.

Better than the swing at everything we seem to have in Castro, Olmedo and somewhat in Lopez.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2004, 12:19 AM
Who cares, the season is over from a contending view. Jones has sucked the previous years and has slipped recently, ah, how we forget.


Oy, I'm not talking about contending, I'm talking about trudging through innings--they still HAVE to throw the ball and catch the ball for 50 more games, you know.

Larkin411
07-31-2004, 12:20 AM
Count me in the camp of thinking this trade is stupid. I'm not saying I would sign Jones next year but there's no need to deprive our bullpen for what we've gotten. Are they assuming Acevado is going to take up the slack and call up Hudson? Or do they think they'll just overwork the bullpen so what we have can become worse?

Stewie
07-31-2004, 12:21 AM
I guess I sold Andy short earlier, he is actually listed at 170 pounds. He did lead all of minor league baseball in walks last season, FWIW. Also stole 49 bases. It's just when he swings the bat that things start to fall apart for him.

Playadlc
07-31-2004, 12:22 AM
He did lead all of minor league baseball in walks last season, FWIW.

It's worth a lot. That stat right there is worth the trade, IMO.

I think it's a good move.

Marc D
07-31-2004, 12:22 AM
Yea, but what's the big deal about Jones? I'm not even arguing that the kids will be anything. But what's the use of keeping Jones for three months? At least take a small shot that Machado can work out.

I agree that Jones by himself is pretty much worthless but I was digging the idea of a Jones/Wilson package actually bringing in a high level prospect. Oh well, dare to dream I guess. It just seems like a stock broker churning an account to me, I don't see what we gained from this.

RedsRule30
07-31-2004, 12:24 AM
Trading potential free agents is not a firesale.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2004, 12:25 AM
Trading potential free agents is not a firesale.


Did anyone say it was?

Tay
07-31-2004, 12:26 AM
Jones had the potential of being a valuable secondary piece in a higher profile deal. I've felt this way for awhile so this isn't strictly about the Texas rumor.

Seriously, is there any reason this move couldn't have been made at the last minute?

Playadlc
07-31-2004, 12:26 AM
I agree that Jones by himself is pretty much worthless but I was digging the idea of a Jones/Wilson package actually bringing in a high level prospect. Oh well, dare to dream I guess. It just seems like a stock broker churning an account to me, I don't see what we gained from this.

Rest assure, we will still get some quality people from Texas if we decide to send Paul Wilson there.

The Rangers are a Paul Wilson away from taking the West. I firmly believe that and I think they think that too.

Redny
07-31-2004, 12:26 AM
Receiving the Phillies 11th and 18th best prospects (BA 2004 prospect handbook) looks like a pretty good haul for a middle reliever at the tail end of his career, who could also be re-signed next year if desired.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 12:28 AM
From last year's Arizona Fall League:

"Former Red Sox farmhand Josh Hancock (P) pitched well in a starting role (3.43 ERA, 22-9 K/BB, .253 OBA, 21 IPs); the former Red Sox pitcher was called on by the Desert Dogs to start the league championship game against the eventual champion Solar Sox .."

Tony's Royals
07-31-2004, 12:28 AM
2004 Fox's sports rooke report has macrado rated 6th and hancock at 10 in the philly system.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2004, 12:28 AM
This is not a firesale move....hey, we got 2 players for Todd Jones and one can pitch for us now....I can deal with this

M2
07-31-2004, 12:28 AM
I don't mind this trade.

Hancock could be a serviceable bullpenner and Machado does three things very well - field, run and take a walk. If he can get his bat together to hit .250 or better, he's a player. He might not, but these are two guys on the cusp of the majors and one or both could turn out to be useful.

flyer85
07-31-2004, 12:30 AM
That Jones too Texas thing was just a BS rumor. Their pen has been outstanding. They need starters. Maybe acquiring Hancock(starter) signal that Wilson and/or Lidle could be going.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 12:31 AM
Top Prospects in the Triple-A International League for 2003

Friday, September 19, 2003

By Jonathan Mailloux, SportsTicker Staff Writer



Starting pitchers Ryan Madson and Josh Hancock emerged as two of the best young arms in the circuit in 2003.

Hancock, acquired from the Boston Red Sox for Jeremy Giambi last winter, was overpowering down the stretch, winning his final five decisions to post a career-high 10 wins. After off-season pelvis surgery resulted in a slow start, the 25-year-old Mississippi native rallied for a 2.94 ERA over the final two months of the season.

Larkin411
07-31-2004, 12:31 AM
Hey if we say nice things about these guys it will only jinx them. I'm trying to stay negative, don't ruin it for me :)

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 12:34 AM
June 14, 2002

Josh Hancock (RHP, BOS): Fractured cheek bones. He was hit in the head with a line-drive and suffered two breaks in his cheek bone. He'll likely be out for three to four weeks.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2004, 12:35 AM
I'd be willing to wager that neither player spends a full season in the majors in their respective careers.

If now, all of a sudden, shortstop is a priority for O'Brien, why didn't he draft one? Take the plunge, DanO. Why waste time with Chris Gomez Lite?

RedSchmo2
07-31-2004, 12:36 AM
Baseball America had Machado rated as the Phils 11th best prospect and Hancock 18th coming into this season.

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2004, 12:36 AM
He's had a lot of injuries (face/pelvis) hopefully he keeps healthy to see and show what he can do. Seems like w/o injuries he has done ok.

Something like a ball hitting your face has go to be like suffering several concussions...no?

Scrap Irony
07-31-2004, 12:36 AM
Machado is a lightweight, but at least he'll take a walk. The real question is what his acquisition holds for the future of Felipe Lopez and Rey Rey Olmedo. Does O'Briend seriously think Machado is good enough to beat out Olmedo (possible) and Lopex (improbable) for a job on the major league level?

Is Machado in the hunt for the major league SS job in Cincinnati?

IMO, no. More likely, he's Juan Castro with speed and a cheaper price tag. Machado has little in the way of a bat, but will help in other areas, assuming, of course, he's able to beat out Olmedo and possibly Lopez for a job in the Queen City.

Not a bad choice, but one that would be easier to find, IMO, in the offseason. (Thousands of Castro clones available in winter.)

The reason this deal gives me even a sliver of hope is Hancock, yet another soft-tossing RH with little room for error. He's pitched fairly well in the minor leagues (his 4.01 2004 ERA was his worst season in professional baseball). He's a middle reliever with little upside, but he may help for a couple seasons.

Really, bench ballast and middle relief chaff for an aging, overproducing middle reliever.

Final grade= eh, whatever

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 12:39 AM
He's had a lot of injuries (face/pelvis) hopefully he keeps healthy to see and show what he can do. Seems like w/o injuries he has done ok.

Something like a ball hitting your face has go to be like suffering several concussions...no?


Has to be devastating to come back from.

I like the comments about how he finished his 2003 season and his efforts in the Arizona Fall League last fall.

He'll be in camp Spring Training fighting for a roster spot. He has enough ability right now. Of course we're talking about the RED's staff, but let's see. I'd stick him in the Arizona Fall League again.

M2
07-31-2004, 12:39 AM
BP, I think you nailed it. Machado is there to be Juan Castro next season.

Redny
07-31-2004, 12:42 AM
3 pitches- curve, change-up, and fastball that tops out at 94mph. Not really a "soft-tosser".

Aronchis
07-31-2004, 12:43 AM
Juan Castro passes the torch to Machado as the "defensive" specialist. I think I am going to cry :(

Falls City Beer
07-31-2004, 12:44 AM
Assuming (rightly) that DanO's not going to get ML-ready arms in trade for Jones, Wilson, and Lidle, who throws those vacated innings? Who's promoted (besides Brian Rose)?

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 12:46 AM
Assuming (rightly) that DanO's not going to get ML-ready arms in trade for Jones, Wilson, and Lidle, who throws those vacated innings? Who's promoted (besides Brian Rose)?

Anyone can toss the BP that our pitchers have been doing lately.

Seth Etherton could start and Acevedo could be moved to the pen.

Aronchis
07-31-2004, 12:47 AM
Ah, you guys are making me think of popping Mike Tyson's punchout into the old NES :) and fighting Glass Joe again.

Marc D
07-31-2004, 12:51 AM
OK, I am gonna take the following positive spin on the trade:

For 2005 Dan O just upgraded the TVP long relief position with Hancock and then moneyballed the all glove no hit position by getting similar production from a younger cheaper model who may be an uprgrade down the road.

OK, not exactly a shot across the bow to MLB saying the Reds are back but maybe its a small step in the right direction. At least I hope it is becuase they are both Reds now.

Stewie
07-31-2004, 12:51 AM
Josh Hancock will probably end up being the next Amaury Telemaco. Solid long man out of the bullpen with the ability to make an occasional spot start. Nothing exciting, but is one of those guys that could be valuable. Isn't a strikeout pitcher, but doesn't walk a lot of guys, either. Whatever.


Machado doesn't hit well enough to project out to be an everyday shortstop, but could be valuable as a bench player, defensive replacement/pinch runner. Again, nothing exciting, but could be valuable if used right. From all that I've seen of the guy (a couple games that he's been up w/the Phillies and a couple games in the minors), he just doesn't look like a good hitter.

I don't think it is a bad deal for the Reds, as it would be hard to expect to get more for an older, free agent to be reliever like Jones.

Playadlc
07-31-2004, 12:52 AM
Ah, you guys are making me think of popping Mike Tyson's punchout into the old NES :) and fighting Glass Joe again.


007 373 5963

8 years later I still remember that code to get to Tyson. Ahhh, I guess some things you just can't forget. LOL.

Boy, has this thread been hi-jacked or what?

Rocket_Fuel
07-31-2004, 12:53 AM
I was ready to just all over the Reds for this deal, but in hindsight I think it's a solid deal. In years past the Reds probably don't get anything for an aging setup guy like Jones, but to get a decent pitching prospect and so-so SS prospect is ok. Better to get some young players with potential then nothing for Jones.

corkedbat
07-31-2004, 12:54 AM
A good-glove, no-bat MI and a RH fringe SP with limited potential. Weren't those the two areas in the system where we were sufficiently stocked?

paulrichjr
07-31-2004, 12:54 AM
Most Phils fans on their site think this was a good trade for the ......................Phils. They say that the Reds got garbage. Well are you surprised? Why make this trade? Jones could surely be added with Wilson and traded to a Cleveland or Texas to get a real prospect instead of 2 nobodys. Oh well maybe the Wilson deal will be a good one.

Redmachine2003
07-31-2004, 12:57 AM
Could Hancock = Harang? Might not be that bad of pick up.

Rocket_Fuel
07-31-2004, 12:57 AM
I'm guessing that Falls City that Bong and Belisle will get a chance, which isn't bad. They have shown potential.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 12:59 AM
Ah, you guys are making me think of popping Mike Tyson's punchout into the old NES :) and fighting Glass Joe again.


Body Blow! Body Blow! Body Blow!


Knock him out! Knock him out! Knock him out!

CougarQuest
07-31-2004, 01:00 AM
Looking closer at Hancock's major league stats this year:

Looks like his first game was a start and he was mediocre. His second start a disaster against the Braves at Atlanta (lasting only 2 innings giving up 6 runs). He then went to the bullpen and had a 0.00 ERA as a reliever.

NDRed
07-31-2004, 01:01 AM
Does this mean we are not buyers? ;)

Seriously, did O'Brien really thank other GM's were buying his line? And how does he explain this tomorrow after his public comments? I just hope he doesn't sell this as an upgrade of the ML roster.

Scrap Irony
07-31-2004, 01:02 AM
94 mph fastball? I don't know about that, NYRed. His past minor league performance indicates he just doesn't throw that hard. This season, he's K'ed 65 in 107.2 minor league innings. That's after his K/IP declined to roughly 6.50/ game before AAA. To me, that indicates he's stuff-challenged.

Though hardly the worst thing to be, as Cincinnati seems to love them all, that should mean Hancock is merely flotsam in the rotation or a decent, cheap option in middle relief.

Perhaps the Reds get lucky and he performs a la Scott Sullivan for five years or so, but that's as much as I hope for.

All in all, not a horrid deal, but not a steal either.

Considering other deals happening, O'Brien hasn't shaken the earth.

Buckeye33
07-31-2004, 01:03 AM
Posted on rotoworld.


Reds acquired RHP Josh Hancock and SS Anderson Machado from the Phillies for RHP Todd Jones and OF Brad Correll.
Getting anything in return for Jones makes this a good deal for the Reds. Hancock has a chance to have a career as a fifth starter/middle reliever, and he might replace Jose Acevedo in Cincinnati's rotation. Machado will join Triple-A Louisville. Jul. 30 - 11:47 pm et

paulrichjr
07-31-2004, 01:03 AM
Does this mean we are not buyers? ;)

Seriously, did O'Brien really thank other GM's were buying his line? And how does he explain this tomorrow after his public comments? I just hope he doesn't sell this as an upgrade of the ML roster.

Didn't he say that he was looking for a MAJOR LEAGUE PITCHER? Isn't that exactly what he got? How was he lying?

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 01:03 AM
Neither of these players may even be a RED next year. One or both could be traded again.

You just can't sit through this trade period and not make moves. There still needs to be more.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 01:05 AM
Posted on rotoworld.


Reds acquired RHP Josh Hancock and SS Anderson Machado from the Phillies for RHP Todd Jones and OF Brad Correll.
Getting anything in return for Jones makes this a good deal for the Reds. Hancock has a chance to have a career as a fifth starter/middle reliever, and he might replace Jose Acevedo in Cincinnati's rotation. Machado will join Triple-A Louisville. Jul. 30 - 11:47 pm et

Exactly! These guys were free,...except for the mention of tying in Jones with Wilson/Lidle/Graves/etc. for something better.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 01:06 AM
How about Wilson for someone's top-4 prospect?

Graves for a top-7 prospect?

Crash Davis
07-31-2004, 01:07 AM
Hasn't M2 been requesting Machado for a couple of years now? That was M2 wasn't it?

Aren't you going to take credit for it now that it's actually come to life?

Bill
07-31-2004, 01:08 AM
Not sure if they didn't get more back when they dealt the Phils their backup catcher last year, whats-his-name.

Not a bad deal though for a guy picked up off the waiver wire in ST. If Machado can appraoch his 02 season in AA- 750 OPS with 40 steals, he could be a good utility guy.

Hancock is probably no worse than Belisle-spot starter/middle relief.

Tyson was planning on fighting 4-5 fights on pay per view to pay off the IRS and debtors $19 million. That's going to be tough to accomplish now.

MikeS21
07-31-2004, 01:09 AM
Hancock's minor league K/9 is right at 7.00. And in 10 innings at the major league level, he had 10 K's.

He will suffice as a #4-#5 starter with a bullpen spot in mind.

Machado does appear to be the next Juan Castro.

Considering what we gave up, I'd grade this trade as a B-.

D-Man
07-31-2004, 01:17 AM
Does anyone have a writeup on either of these guys, like a BA article? Does Machado project to hit for a better average as he ages? Exactly how many walks did he have last year? This information would be helpful.

Unrelated side note: Eric Davis's posts are just like the real Eric Davis's defensive range. . . all over the place :MandJ:

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 01:21 AM
Does anyone have a writeup on either of these guys, like a BA article? Does Machado project to hit for a better average as he ages? Exactly how many walks did he have last year? This information would be helpful.

Unrelated side note: Eric Davis's posts are just like the real Eric Davis's defensive range. . . all over the place :MandJ:

Thank you.

I posted above the information I could find on Hancock. There was one Phillies Insider site where that I couldn't get to (for monetary reasons) that talks about him as their #14 prospect with a related article.

NDRed
07-31-2004, 01:22 AM
paulrichjr said:
"Didn't he say that he was looking for a MAJOR LEAGUE PITCHER? Isn't that exactly what he got? How was he lying?"

He was lying (don't get me wrong; it's fine if he was lying to drive up trade value) because O'Brien was implying that trades would only be made to UPGRADE the Reds current roster. This trade obviously was not designed to do that. There is no question that this trade made the Reds current roster worse. Anyone disagree with that?

I just think it would have been more effective for our GM to come out and say; " Given our position in the standings and our long range goals we will do what ever we can to build our minor lesgues and future of our organization by listening to offers for players who are not in our long-range plans." It's insulting to tell the fans that the Reds are looking to make a trade because the think they can win this year. One would have to be naive or stupid (or both) to believe that.

TeamBoone
07-31-2004, 01:22 AM
He's had a lot of injuries (face/pelvis) hopefully he keeps healthy to see and show what he can do. Seems like w/o injuries he has done ok.

Something like a ball hitting your face has go to be like suffering several concussions...no?


Has to be devastating to come back from.

I like the comments about how he finished his 2003 season and his efforts in the Arizona Fall League last fall.

He'll be in camp Spring Training fighting for a roster spot. He has enough ability right now. Of course we're talking about the RED's staff, but let's see. I'd stick him in the Arizona Fall League again.

It must be awful. Just ask Sean Casey.

westofyou
07-31-2004, 01:23 AM
Hancocks Minor league stats

http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2900

Machado

http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2916

D-Man
07-31-2004, 01:23 AM
Thank you.

Seriously, I'm envious that you are able to do back-to-back-to-back posts. You must have awesome typing skills or an itchy trigger finger (or both)!

corkedbat
07-31-2004, 01:25 AM
Who knows? If the kid really does weigh in the 140 range, maybe a couple of pork chops could improve his offensive outlook.

CougarQuest
07-31-2004, 01:25 AM
Hasn't M2 been requesting Machado for a couple of years now? That was M2 wasn't it?

Aren't you going to take credit for it now that it's actually come to life?


Looks like Stewie suggested getting him the other day.

redsrule2500
07-31-2004, 01:25 AM
This trade was horrible, I think Jones was our most reliable bullpen pitcher (though that's not saying much). He also was a great asset to the team as a chemistry builder. He seemed to always have a positive attitude. (Notice all the times he pied the guys when they were on TV and stuff?)

What are they thinking? :confused:

Bigg Red Smokey
07-31-2004, 01:26 AM
Good trade imo...

westofyou
07-31-2004, 01:29 AM
From BP 2004 Machado

Regarded as teh Phils top SS prospect, he's just spent his second full season at Reading, slugging an awful .296.

He's well regarded defensively, he's fast and he knows how to take a walk; in fact he led the league in walks and steals. the big buts are hitting for average and striking out.

Sounds like Ramon Vazquez to me.

oneupper
07-31-2004, 01:30 AM
Machado's Stats from the 03-04 Winter League in Venezuela
(couldn't hit there either).



AVG G AB R H 2b3b hr RBI BB K SB CS
MACHADO ANDERSON (AGUI) .188 37 85 11 16 3 3 0 2 17 29 2 3

westofyou
07-31-2004, 01:31 AM
What are they thinking? :confused:

That the team ERA is already 5.18, Jones is old and a FA and they have iffy middle infield prospects?

Fullboat
07-31-2004, 01:34 AM
I wonder if Casey has anything to add about this trade. ;)

D-Man
07-31-2004, 01:35 AM
Hancocks Minor league stats

http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2900

Machado

http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2916

Thanks westofyou.

Machado is an extreme secondary average guy. He hit .218 for his career in AA, after a bad 2003. (Was he injured?) But he still had a .345 OBP in two stints in AA. Tons of stolen bases, and modest isolated power (for a MI). He did hit for 39 extra-base hits in AA in 2002, so that is promising.

Hopefully, he turns into Ozzie Smith lite--he certainly fits the profile as a switch hitter. This collection of pitchers could surely use an Ozzie Smith at SS.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 01:37 AM
Hancocks Minor league stats

http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2900

Machado

http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2916

Thanks WOY. I couldn't find that stuff.

Buckeye33
07-31-2004, 01:39 AM
So you keep Jones to pitch on an under .500 team, have about a 4.00 ERA and will be a FA at years end? Oh yeah, he was put on waivers by the DRAYS!

Or, you trade him for a 23 year old SS who knows how to look at pitches, and can steal bases. And you also get a 26 year old pitcher who could top out as a better version of TVP.

Man, I'm not sure which one I'd pick.

shaunsinger
07-31-2004, 01:41 AM
A good-glove, no-bat MI and a RH fringe SP with limited potential. Weren't those the two areas in the system where we were sufficiently stocked?

What exactly did you want for Todd Jones? That's what I'm wondering. Do you think Dan O'Brien looked at all the prospective deals and said "this one makes the least sense for the ballclub" and pulled the trigger? This was the best offer he had on the table so he took it. Todd Jones' 45 innings of close to 4.00 ERA ball he would have pitched the rest of the year won't be missed enough to the point where we should have kept him! I don't understand this way of thinking. If Hancock wins 10 games next year DanO's a genius. If he wins 1 game the next 2 years......we only gave up TODD JONES!!!!!

shaunsinger
07-31-2004, 01:43 AM
Who knows? If the kid really does weigh in the 140 range, maybe a couple of pork chops could improve his offensive outlook.


Who are we trading for Pork Chop Pough???
Anyone remember him?

oregonred
07-31-2004, 01:46 AM
This board is incredible.

Todd Jones gets traded at almost midnight and we've topped 110 posts in less than 2 hours...

After being much maligned in April, thanks for a nice run in 2004 and getting the club something in return. Hope it works for you in Philly.

oregonred
07-31-2004, 01:48 AM
Who are we trading for Pork Chop Pough???
Anyone remember him?

Is he any relation to Seahawks OL Pork Chop Womack ??

westofyou
07-31-2004, 01:49 AM
Let's not forget Jone's July.




IP H R BB SO BAA
10 13 6 6 5 .317

CougarQuest
07-31-2004, 01:50 AM
I don't think this trade was horrible. We got Jones as floatsom at the beginning of the year. Jones is a career 1.44 WHIP and 4.04 ERA.

It appears that the Phillies had given up on Hancock, it appears they wanted him to be a starter but worked out better as a releiver....for them. If the Reds use him as a reliever, we may be in the same boat as we were with Jones and got cheaper this year and definitely next year, and younger. If Hancock shows that he can be a starter, then this is even a better trade.

Mercado is intriguing. The kid has some wheels. Looks like he has been pushing some singles into doubles too. I'm a little worried about all those errors, but if some of these posters have seen him and think he is a Castro type fielder, then this isn't a bad move at all.

O'Brien did address two areas of need, and didn't trade for a 5 tooler outfielder.

westofyou
07-31-2004, 01:52 AM
Hancock is orginally a Red Sox Guy, traded to Phillies for Giambi, they were using him in the BP (with hopes that he'd seize a starting job) they want "died in woll" old style relievers, not converted starters (at least right now)

CougarQuest
07-31-2004, 01:53 AM
I think I read that Mercado had an appendectomy earlier this year(?)

westofyou
07-31-2004, 01:57 AM
I think I read that Mercado had an appendectomy earlier this year(?)

Last year Abreu?

WVRedsFan
07-31-2004, 01:57 AM
I don't think this trade was horrible. We got Jones as floatsom at the beginning of the year. Jones is a career 1.44 WHIP and 4.04 ERA.

It appears that the Phillies had given up on Hancock, it appears they wanted him to be a starter but worked out better as a releiver....for them. If the Reds use him as a reliever, we may be in the same boat as we were with Jones and got cheaper this year and definitely next year, and younger. If Hancock shows that he can be a starter, then this is even a better trade.

Mercado is intriguing. The kid has some wheels. Looks like he has been pushing some singles into doubles too. I'm a little worried about all those errors, but if some of these posters have seen him and think he is a Castro type fielder, then this isn't a bad move at all.

O'Brien did address two areas of need, and didn't trade for a 5 tooler outfielder.

Yes. Todd Jones had a horrible July and would only have been worse as the year went on. He was released by the DRays and we are lucky we shed his salary for the Hancock salary (which I assume is much less). It's not a blockbustrer, for sure, but it's a trade that makes us better in the long run. If Mercado is Castro, he's a younger Castro and costs much less.

No, it wasn't the trade of the century or the deal that brought Randy Johnson to Cincinnati, but it was a good solid deal. To be frank, the only options for the Reds (with current budget limitations) is to gamble on youth or hope some major league team is totally insane and gives up a Randy Johnson for a Danny Graves :).

I still feel there is a deal to come tomorrow which will include Mr. Graves or Mr. Lidle. We shall see...

corkedbat
07-31-2004, 01:58 AM
What exactly did you want for Todd Jones? That's what I'm wondering. Do you think Dan O'Brien looked at all the prospective deals and said "this one makes the least sense for the ballclub" and pulled the trigger? This was the best offer he had on the table so he took it. Todd Jones' 45 innings of close to 4.00 ERA ball he would have pitched the rest of the year won't be missed enough to the point where we should have kept him! I don't understand this way of thinking. If Hancock wins 10 games next year DanO's a genius. If he wins 1 game the next 2 years......we only gave up TODD JONES!!!!!

I'm not really that down on this trade, not really gung ho about it either. Maybe it'll turn into a great trade down the road, but just doesn't seem that exciting right now. Jones may not have made anyone forget the Nasty Boys, but he was one of the more consistent members of a very bad bullpen. I just think that Jones could've been combined with someone else for a better haul.

We may not have lost that much, but have we added anything more than what was already scattered through the organization? We'll see.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2004, 02:04 AM
http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/9287092.htm

O'Brien didn't rule out another trade on Saturday, the final day to make one without waivers, but indicated there won't be a flurry of deals like last year.

"There are still some phone calls coming in," O'Brien said. "This is a fluid situation, but our goal is the same - to try to maintain the core of the players that we have."

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 02:13 AM
I forgot about that incident where Jones threw the bubblegum into the Phillie's stands and they threw it back at him. :MandJ:

BoydsOfSummer
07-31-2004, 02:14 AM
Hancock has been a Red since late January, I drafted him in the late rounds of a Diamond Mind league. :thumbup:

shaunsinger
07-31-2004, 02:19 AM
"We were not intending to trade Todd Jones, but Philadelphia kept coming back to us," O'Brien said.

I like his hardball strategy. When you say you aren't giving up someone that means they are gonna have to give up more cause our "intention" ( FAT quotes ) is to keep the guy.


I mean.............Mr. DePodesta and Mr. Terry Ryan, we wanna "keep" Wilson and Lidle for that "Stretch run"

M2
07-31-2004, 02:25 AM
Hasn't M2 been requesting Machado for a couple of years now? That was M2 wasn't it?

Aren't you going to take credit for it now that it's actually come to life?

Yeah, it's been a few years now since I first mentioned him, but he always struck me as a SS sleeper. Might pan out, might not, but if you're not going to trade for, sign or draft a top SS talent then you could do a lot worse than a kid like Machado. The other sleeper guy I always had my eye on was Jhonny Peralta, but he's probably untouchable these days.

Just for a bit of perspective on this deal. While neither player the Reds got for Jones profiles as a sure thing, it's quite probable that both will have better/longer major league careers than Phil Dumatrait and Tyler Pelland. At least these two guys, if they flame out, will do it in the majors as opposed to somewhere in the bushes. For Todd Jones, that's not such a bad return.

Mark D, I agree this was a very "Moneyball" trade.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2004, 02:29 AM
Too bad Alfredo Simon was dealt to the Giants a couple of hours before the Jones trade. He would have been a nice pickup along with Machado.

corkedbat
07-31-2004, 02:47 AM
QUOTE=shaunsinger
I like his hardball strategy. When you say you aren't giving up someone that means they are gonna have to give up more cause our "intention" ( FAT quotes ) is to keep the guy.


I mean.............Mr. DePodesta and Mr. Terry Ryan, we wanna "keep" Wilson and Lidle for that "Stretch run"[/QUOTE]


Dang! I didn't realize that we received Scott Kazmir and BJ Upton for Todd Jones and a minor league OF! (DWIS) Hardball? For a couple of mediocre prospects? Puleeze!

I don't see that moving Todd Jones was that important unless he was included in a deal for an impact player. Like many have been saying - stand up to the contenders and make them pay. I'm not saying TJ was worthy of an A- Level prospect, but combine him with Wilson or Lidle or LaRue, etc. for a solid B which would be preferrable to the two level C's we received, IMO.

The remainder on his contract for this year was not that much, he was a great clubhouse presence (i.e. horsing around with the fans this evening) and while his 8-2 record/ 3.79 ERA and 51 apearances were not gaudy, hwe was a comparatively settling factor in a very shaky bullpen that now boasts Ryan Wagner and John Reidling as its top two RH setup options. Things have been ugly lately but don't bet they can't get uglier and that they can't carry over to next year.

Like I said earlier, I'm not that down on this trade, but to place this deal on a pedestal as a monument to DanO's perservernce and ability to play hardball is absurd.

In fact, my first impression of this deal is the same as my early opinion of DanO himself...ho-hum.

Coming up with just enough solid players and just enough winning months to keep this club in a perpetual 3rd-4th place cycle. Enough potential to give the fans some tenuous hope, but not enough hope to force the FO into a position of too much pressure to add to payroll.

DanO, like this deal, may well turn out better than it first appears, but as of yet, there's very little to make me believe.

IslandRed
07-31-2004, 03:08 AM
Too bad Alfredo Simon was dealt to the Giants a couple of hours before the Jones trade. He would have been a nice pickup along with Machado.

I liked Simon's FSL numbers a lot when I saw them, thinking he had a high upside; not so much when I saw he's 23. Hancock was putting up good numbers in AA at 23, for what it's worth. Simon may still turn out to be something but he wasn't one of the crown jewels of the Philly system. I don't know that the Giants made out any better than we did, and Rodriguez is a better pitcher than Jones.

shaunsinger
07-31-2004, 03:10 AM
I like his hardball strategy. When you say you aren't giving up someone that means they are gonna have to give up more cause our "intention" ( FAT quotes ) is to keep the guy.


I mean.............Mr. DePodesta and Mr. Terry Ryan, we wanna "keep" Wilson and Lidle for that "Stretch run"


Dang! I didn't realize that we received Scott Kazmir and BJ Upton for Todd Jones and a minor league OF! (DWIS) Hardball? For a couple of mediocre prospects? Puleeze!

I don't see that moving Todd Jones was that important unless he was included in a deal for an impact player. Like many have been saying - stand up to the contenders and make them pay. I'm not saying TJ was worthy of an A- Level prospect, but combine him with Wilson or Lidle or LaRue, etc. for a solid B which would be preferrable to the two level C's we received, IMO.

The remainder on his contract for this year was not that much, he was a great clubhouse presence (i.e. horsing around with the fans this evening) and while his 8-2 record/ 3.79 ERA and 51 apearances were not gaudy, hwe was a comparatively settling factor in a very shaky bullpen that now boasts Ryan Wagner and John Reidling as its top two RH setup options. Things have been ugly lately but don't bet they can't get uglier and that they can't carry over to next year.

Like I said earlier, I'm not that down on this trade, but to place this deal on a pedestal as a monument to DanO's perservernce and ability to play hardball is absurd.

In fact, my first impression of this deal is the same as my early opinion of DanO himself...ho-hum.

Coming up with just enough solid players and just enough winning months to keep this club in a perpetual 3rd-4th place cycle. Enough potential to give the fans some tenuous hope, but not enough hope to force the FO into a position of too much pressure to add to payroll.

DanO, like this deal, may well turn out better than it first appears, but as of yet, there's very little to make me believe.


Unfortunately, when you say we could have packaged him with Lidle, Wilson or Larue, this is real life and not MVP Baseball 2004 for Xbox.

When 2004 started we didn't even have Todd Jones on our team and now we have two prospects in retrun, say thank you to the Phils and go to sleep happy.

When I was crediting O'Brien's "hardball" I was only 1/2 serious. The fact he even said "we weren't gonna trade him" made me chuckle because it's like all of a sudden Todd Jones is untouchable?

I just meant he is playing this 'Hardball' thing out to the last hour and I kinda like it. Where does it help us to take the first thing out there? Our prize right now is Paul Wilson, you know that and I know that. I really think we might keep him just to anchor the staff and not embarass Mr. Lindner and Assoc., but I do think if we get bolled over by a great offer we will take it. And I promise you that offer won't be the same one we got a week ago I promise you that.

Dude, Victor Zombrano just netted an A++ Prospect. Paul Wilson can get us a B- to B by his lonesome in this market and I for one am excited!

However, If Dan O'Brien really stays pat, I'll know he is just an owner's whipping boy and not the GM that knows the proper direction of this team.

2001MUgrad
07-31-2004, 03:28 AM
YEAH!!! Let's put up the damn White Flag!!! Hell yes, Uncle Carl and Dumbass Dan, let's tell the fans its over and not to come and then blame them when attendance falls in August and September and say the fans are the reason the Reds can't compete.. These are marginal prospects for the Phils, sounds like a can't miss trade to me.. Damn, when did the Reds become the laughing stock of MLB, man, this is insane!! The sad thing about this trade is it obviously wasn't about $$$, which means Dano is more of a freakin idiot than originally thought..
The way i see this years Reds team is that there are 2 guys that are just awesome in the clubhouse,1 is Sean Cassey and 2 is Todd Jones.. Some of the stats guys are all up on this trade and all for it.. BUT, PEOPLE more needs to be taken into account than just stats.. Sure, Jose Guillien was worth less than his stats, and Todd Jones is worth more than his, etc...

But this trade mades no sense for the Reds, it does NOTHING!!!

Good Luck Todd!!! I don't like the Phils, but I like what the Phily Papers said about the Pathers last January, so good luck!!! Hope you win a RING!

corkedbat
07-31-2004, 03:32 AM
Unfortunately, when you say we could have packaged him with Lidle, Wilson or Larue, this is real life and not MVP Baseball 2004 for Xbox. When 2004 started we didn't even have Todd Jones on our team and now we have two prospects in retrun, say thank you to the Phils and go to sleep happy. When I was crediting Obrien's "hardball" I was only 1/2 serious. The fact he even said "we weren't gonna trade him" made me chuckle because it's like all of a sudden Todd Jones is untouchable? I just meant he is playing this 'Hardball' thing out to the last hour and I kinda like it. Where does it help us to take the first thing out there? Our prize right now is Paul Wilson, you know that and I know that. I really think we might keep him just to anchor the staff and not embarass Mr. Lindner and Assoc., but I do think if we get bolled over by a great offer we will take it. And I promise you that offer won't be the same one we got a week ago I promise you that. Dude, Victor Zombrano just netted an A++ Prospect. Paul Wilson can get us a B- to B by his lonesome in this market and I'm excited! However, If Dan O'Brien really stays pat, I'll know he is just an owner's whipping boy and not the GM that knows the proper direction of this team.

I can agree with most of what you say, but still believe that with the market for veteran pitchers, Jones, could've meant an extra decent prospect or a prospect upgrade if added to a deal with someone like Wilson, Lidle or LaRue.

Out of Wilson, Lidle and Jones, hanging onto Jones and playing out the string for the rest of the season with no compensation would have bothered me least. If nothing else, the 8th inning should now be even more adventuresome. :)

oregonred
07-31-2004, 03:34 AM
Regarding the second to last post :MandJ:

Todd Jones as an untouchable? Did the medication wear off early this evening or simply a bad night out on the town eh jonsome? ;)

Aronchis
07-31-2004, 03:36 AM
The deal does nothing? Lets see
1)Hancock gives the Reds another possible MR guy for next year who is 10 years younger than the Jones
2)Machado gives the Reds Castro's replacement again, almost a decade younger in age.

Moneyball type of deal, did DanO just run some numbers through the computer during the time he was awake today? ;)

KronoRed
07-31-2004, 03:59 AM
120 k's and 108 walks?? all with a .196 avg??

Good grief! he's like a little Dunn minus the bat :MandJ:

I don't have much of an opinion on this deal, nice to get some new blood for a MR we won't be needing

LoganBuck
07-31-2004, 07:44 AM
Jones was unlikely to profile as much in the way of draft pick compensation. The reds just pulled off a good trade to get valuable and cheaper replacements for the bench and bullpen for 2005-2006. If both are on the roster next year this trade is a very good trade. I kind of like Machado a little. He seems like Juan Castro circa 2001, except he has speed, which this team is sorely lacking. He probably doesn't even have Ryan Freel upside on offense but, he does have the ability to pinch run, and be a defensive replacement. A .345 OBP isn't that bad.

Red Leader
07-31-2004, 08:04 AM
The trade? A little good, but also bad.

The little good: Like has been said, at least we got something of some use for Jones. We need MI help and we got it. Not the uber prospect I was hoping for, but at least it was addressed. After seeing names like Huber and Kazmir thrown around today, I'm still disappointed, but there's still some time left.

The Bad: The one thing I will say is that I think this deal hints that Danny Graves WILL NOT be traded at the deadline, which is why I'm not totally excited about this deal overall. If someone doesn't trade for Graves now, I don't see how we expect to move him at any time. AND if we don't move Danny Graves, that means that we'd have to move Casey or Griffey to come up with cash for our "stud" starter this offseason. You can pretty much bank on the fact that Griffey is going nowhere, which leaves Casey. Out of the 3, Casey would have been my last choice to move.

KronoRed
07-31-2004, 08:17 AM
I hadn't though about that

No Graves trade = :(

Kc61
07-31-2004, 08:22 AM
Maybe this trade was to get Hancock as a stopgap starter because Reds expect to have openings in rotation. May indicate that Wilson/Lidle will be traded today leaving spots open in rotation.

Hoosier Red
07-31-2004, 08:43 AM
Let's not forget Jone's July.




IP H R BB SO BAA
10 13 6 6 5 .317



Can we have this statline somehow superimposed on every post. That way when some one wants to complain about the white flag going up they can see that pretty much by getting rid of Todd Jones we may actually be better off?

Just a thought.

In all seriousness, best of luck to TJ, nice of him to come in and help the team.

djsauter
07-31-2004, 08:47 AM
WHY?

WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS TRADE?

We needed pitching. Both starting and bullpen. IMO, Bullpen more desperate. So why not just trade away our best releif pitcher. For who? How about a guy with a 9.00 ERA and another Ray Oldmedo. Wow, we now have Juan Castro, Ray Olmedo and this clown--all .250 hitters with speed. Those better not be the shortstops of the future. Maybe Barry should stick around for a few more years.

I really hope this new pitcher gets clobbered today.

Hoosier Red
07-31-2004, 08:52 AM
WHY?

WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS TRADE?

We needed pitching. Both starting and bullpen. IMO, Bullpen more desperate. So why not just trade away our best releif pitcher. For who? How about a guy with a 9.00 ERA and another Ray Oldmedo. Wow, we now have Juan Castro, Ray Olmedo and this clown--all .250 hitters with speed. Those better not be the shortstops of the future. Maybe Barry should stick around for a few more years.

I really hope this new pitcher gets clobbered today.


Originally Posted by westofyou
Let's not forget Jone's July.

Code:

IP H R BB SO BAA
10 13 6 6 5 .317

wheels
07-31-2004, 09:01 AM
YEAH!!! Let's put up the damn White Flag!!! Hell yes, Uncle Carl and Dumbass Dan, let's tell the fans its over and not to come and then blame them when attendance falls in August and September and say the fans are the reason the Reds can't compete.. These are marginal prospects for the Phils, sounds like a can't miss trade to me.. Damn, when did the Reds become the laughing stock of MLB, man, this is insane!! The sad thing about this trade is it obviously wasn't about $$$, which means Dano is more of a freakin idiot than originally thought..
The way i see this years Reds team is that there are 2 guys that are just awesome in the clubhouse,1 is Sean Cassey and 2 is Todd Jones.. Some of the stats guys are all up on this trade and all for it.. BUT, PEOPLE more needs to be taken into account than just stats.. Sure, Jose Guillien was worth less than his stats, and Todd Jones is worth more than his, etc...

But this trade mades no sense for the Reds, it does NOTHING!!!

Good Luck Todd!!! I don't like the Phils, but I like what the Phily Papers said about the Pathers last January, so good luck!!! Hope you win a RING!

Why is Todd Jones "Worth more than his stats"?

lollipopcurve
07-31-2004, 09:06 AM
O'Brien turns a guy released in ST into a 26-year old who may turn into a 5th-starter or long reliever and a SS prospect who will probably end up a useful bench player. I got no problem with that.

With Olmedo, Lopez, Machado, Tiburcio and Janish, I think our SS depth is very solid right now. Probably no all-stars in the group, but enough depth that one should emerge as a decent starter. May be a trading chip in there, too.

Wouldn't mind seeing O'Brien concentrate on getting pitching, if more trades are to come.

MikeS21
07-31-2004, 09:08 AM
I think some of us are working from a false assumption. I'm not sure packaging Todd Jones along with anyone else would bring ANY upgrade in a return pachage. In fact, I wonder if including Joners in a deal might not DECREASE what you get in return. IMO, the market for Todd Jones was extremely limited - to perhaps one or two teams. I'd say this was the best deal anyone offered for Jones.

Look at it this way. OB got two prospects. While you'd rather have QUALITY prospects, the next best thing is QUANTITY. You never know how a player might respond when he changes organizations. And when you look at the career minor leaguers that fill the Reds' farm system, here are a two guys who have a chance to excel.

You never know. Gullet and Hume may have watched video of Hancock pitch and may see a minor flaw that could be corrected, that might drop his WHIP a bit. And Machado could be worked with in the batter's box and add some hits to those walks. (Can you imagine how many pitches that Jiminez and Machado would see while in the same lineup?)

By the way, for those folks who think we just just got another Castro/Olmedo clone, keep in mind two things: 1) Machado knows how to take a walk. A walk is not in Castro or Olmedo's vocabulary. 2) Castro is now a .250ish BA hitter. If Machado becomes a .250ish hitter and adds his walks, he would have a respectable OBP - much higher than either Castro or Olmedo. Machado has consistently put up an OBP of over .340 the last four years of his time in the minor leagues. Juan Castro has a lifetime OBP of .270. Machado is NOT Castro or Olmedo.

With all the SS's OB is collecting, you may see a couple included in trades - especially if Wilson goes to Texas in a deal for Kinsler and a pitching prospect.

As I said, I'll grade this trade a B-.

FlyingPig
07-31-2004, 09:37 AM
Any trade this team makes is gonna be liked by half of this forum and trashed by the other half.....

ANY trade...

At least the FO is out there TRYING to find "propects" to replace Barry. Which means they know they need to. They could have traded Jones for 2 "5-tool" 20 year old outfielders, you know.

KittyDuran
07-31-2004, 09:51 AM
The minor leaguer the Reds are sending is OF Brad Correll, fyi. Sigh, another one of my favorite Dragons (the last one) is gone. Good luck, Brad - hope you are successful as some of the others who have left. :thumbup:

SandyD
07-31-2004, 10:06 AM
just for comparison, what's been said about Machado reminds me a lot of Adam Everett when I first saw him with the Zephyrs in 2000. He looked scrawny, clueless at the plate, couldn't get the ball out of the infield and struck out a lot. He worked hard at it, and really improved.

I can't find his minor league stats to verify, but that is what I remember.

FlyingPig
07-31-2004, 10:06 AM
Sigh, another one of my favorite Dragons (the last one) is gone. Good luck, Brad - hope you are successful as some of the others who have left. :thumbup:

Correll attended Ashbrook High School, graduating in 1999...right here in Gastonia NC. We are all watching his progress with pride down here. I was looking for the day I'd see him at the GABP.

Good luck as you progress up the chain, Brad.

OldXOhio
07-31-2004, 10:27 AM
I really hope this new pitcher gets clobbered today.

That's the spirit!

Now quit messing around on the internet - you've got an important job. Get out there and root against those Reds today.

Far East
07-31-2004, 10:36 AM
If the Reds were actually in the pennant race (or wild card hunt as per O'Brien), wouldn't they be trying to obtain, not give up, two or more Todd Jones-like relievers to bolster their sick bullpen? So, it's an admission by O'Brien to reality.

I'm all for obtaining anything for arb-eligible or free agents-to-be, but considering that many of any team's (including the Phillies) top prospects eventually fail in the majors, then I would have held out longer for better -- Jones solo or in a package.

And it is insignificant how the Reds originally got Jones and/or who had released him.

LINEDRIVER
07-31-2004, 11:25 AM
Just before the season started, DanO signed Todd Jones and then traded Reitsma. I'm thinking that DanO made a comment to the effect that trading Reitsma was easier by knowing that Todd Jones was there to plug that gap.

buckeyenut
07-31-2004, 11:33 AM
Guys like Jones are a dime a dozen and they rarely repeat their performance year to year. Thats just the facts of life for mediocre bullpen arms like Jones and Heredia.

What this does do is give us an option to send a SS back to TEX in a Wilson deal. Wilson, Lidle and Olmedo for Kinsler, Kozloswki and Danks or some combination of B prospects?

37red
07-31-2004, 12:08 PM
I put us on the negative side of this deal. We need more quality pitching, not less. So here we get nothing that we need but give up one of our better pitchers. Must have been some financial gain because it sure isn't a building block for the team.

D-Man
07-31-2004, 12:29 PM
BA's analysis is now available. They seem a bit iffy on whether Machado is going to hit for a decent enough average at the ML level.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/040730jones.html

Phillies get another bullpen reinforcement in Jones
By John Manuel
July 30, 2004

Looking to bolster their bullpen, the Phillies didn't stop after acquiring Felix Rodriguez from the Giants. They added another veteran on Friday, getting Todd Jones and high Class A outfielder Brad Correll from the Reds for righthander Josh Hancock and Triple-A shortstop Anderson Machado.

An all-star in 2000 who got knocked around while toiling for four clubs over the next three seasons, Jones has had a revival in 2004. The 36-year-old righthander is tied for the major league lead with eight relief wins and ranks third in the National League with 22 holds. His fastball is registering in the low 90s, and he complements it with a splitter. He was 8-2, 3.79 with one save in 51 appearances for the Reds, with a 37-25 strikeout-walk ratio, .243 opponent average and four homers allowed in 57 innings. Jones has 185 career saves to go with a 47-44, 4.04 mark in 717 games.

Hancock, 26, had just been called up by the Phillies three days before the trade. The Red Sox drafted him in the fifth round out of Auburn in 1998, and traded him to Philadelphia for Jeremy Giambi in December 2002. Hancock has good command of three pitches: a fastball that can reach the low 90s, a curveball and a changeup. He has gone 0-2, 6.05 in nine big league games (three starts) over the last three seasons. He had spent most of 2004 at Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barres, where he had gong 8-7, 4.01 in 18 starts. He had a 65-21 K-BB ratio in 108 innings, with opponents batting .263 with 10 homers. He should get a chance to crack the always-changing Reds rotation, and he profiles as a back-of-the-rotation starter.

Machado, 23, signed out of Venezuela in 1998. He has been one of the Phillies' better infield prospects since 2000, when he was one of the high Class A Florida State League's youngest everyday players and finished the season in the Double-A Eastern League playoffs. But he just hasn't hit enough, even with good patience that resulted in a minor league-high 108 walks in 2003. He missed all of April this year following an appendectomy in March, and has batted just .229/.339/.365 with six homers, 26 RBIs and 11 steals (in 17 attempts) in 77 games at Scranton. His career numbers aren't any better: .230/.337/.339 with 33 homers, 241 RBIs and 172 steals in 698 contests. There are no problems with his defense, as Machado stands out with his smooth actions, plus arm and excellent range and instincts.

Correll, 23, was drafted in the 29th round in 2002 out of Limestone (S.C.), an NCAA Division II program. He has provided decent production in the lower minors but doesn't project to offer enough to play in the big leagues as a left fielder. He signed as a third baseman before moving to the outfield in 2003. He was hitting .285/.357/.407 with nine homers and 63 RBIS in 101 games at high Class A Potomac. For his career, he has batted .278/.343/.425 with 29 homers, 187 RBIs and 25 steals in 300 games.

Raisor
07-31-2004, 12:34 PM
I put us on the negative side of this deal. We need more quality pitching, not less. So here we get nothing that we need but give up one of our better pitchers. Must have been some financial gain because it sure isn't a building block for the team.


The trade MIGHT hurt short term, but that's only if you think the Reds are contending the rest of the year. Something I highly doubt.

Getting two guys, even these two guys, for Jones is a great flip.

Stewie
07-31-2004, 12:37 PM
Mercado is intriguing. The kid has some wheels. Looks like he has been pushing some singles into doubles too. I'm a little worried about all those errors, but if some of these posters have seen him and think he is a Castro type fielder, then this isn't a bad move at all.

O'Brien did address two areas of need, and didn't trade for a 5 tooler outfielder.


Machado is like Rey Ordonez in that he makes a lot of errors because he has great range and gets to a lot of balls that the average shortstop wouldn't get to. He also has a tendency to make the difficult play while botching the easy one.

As for his hitting, he does have great patience, but it is tough to teach a guy how to hit. Reggie Taylor is walking proof of that. I guess his hitting kind of sounds like Rey Ordonez, too, only with more patience.

Far East
07-31-2004, 12:39 PM
His career numbers aren't any better: .230/.337/.339 with 33 homers, 241 RBIs and 172 steals in 698 contests.
Based on his description as a weak hitter, I expected him to have hit maybe 10 or fewer home runs.

How many AB's has he had in those 698 games? Sorry it I missed that having been posted already.

westofyou
07-31-2004, 12:47 PM
Getting two guys, even these two guys, for Jones is a great flip.

Hi My name is Todd Jones, you can call me Pyrite.

I'm 36 years old and from 2001-2003 I pitched in 207 games, 219 innings.

In those innings I gave up 264 hits and had an ERA of 5.30.

In the spring of 2004 I was cut by the Clippers of baseball the Devil Rays.

4 months later I have an ERA just under 4, however in July I started to get tired.... you see the team I'm on has some pretty bad starting pitching... but some offense, I mean how else does a setup guy go 8-2? For my career I average 68 innings pitched a season and currently I have 57 innings under my belt. Did I mention I was 36? well if I didn't let me tell you that I like whip cream pies, big hairy mustaches and streaking in the clubhouse and am looking for a team that won't destroy what I have left in my right arm.

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2004, 01:06 PM
How anyone can expect DO to "hold out??" :confused: for something more for Todd Jones? is really just perplexing and proof that no matter what sometimes people just have to complain about something.

I mean an avg. middle reliever who.....as WOY...just stated is basically on his last legs and is a dime a dozen type player (just like the INF the Reds got according to some here ) is not going to get you anything better than this.

You were expecting Larry Andersen for Jeff Bagwell maybe??

That trade comes along once every what 10/20 years. The Red Sox made an error in trading Bagwell but HOU was lucky also in that Bagwell was not even cloe to what he came to show (weightlifting and who knows what else sure helped him )

This is the best you can hope to expect for Jones.

I expect they can get even more for Wilson.

About the same for Lidle.

Graves?? This org. would be lucky if anyone took that sick contract.

RedsDude
07-31-2004, 01:07 PM
great! what an awesome trade!!! we trade probably our only middle-releiver with any value for a 26 year old hack of a pitcher, and a light-hitting, slick feilding shortstop. i just can't control my excitement; excuse me while i go clean my pants.

what a stupid trade! we get absolutly NOTHING for one of our only players with any value. i know nothing about the pitcher, but i'm sure he stinks. and don't we already have this shortstop? isn't his name castro, er lopez er olmedo?

wow, DorkO, thanks for nothing! i hope your stay in cincinnati is a short one...

Redny
07-31-2004, 01:11 PM
Hi My name is Todd Jones, you can call me Pyrite.

I'm 36 years old and from 2001-2003 I pitched in 207 games, 219 innings.

In those innings I gave up 264 hits and had an ERA of 5.30.

In the spring of 2004 I was cut by the Clippers of baseball the Devil Rays.

4 months later I have an ERA just under 4, however in July I started to get tired.... you see the team I'm on has some pretty bad starting pitching... but some offense, I mean how else does a setup guy go 8-2? For my career I average 68 innings pitched a season and currently I have 57 innings under my belt. Did I mention I was 36? well if I didn't let me tell you that I like whip cream pies, big hairy mustaches and streaking in the clubhouse and am looking for a team that won't destroy what I have left in my right arm.

Perfect!! :MandJ: :thumbup:

Raisor
07-31-2004, 01:15 PM
i know nothing about the pitcher, but i'm sure he stinks.


Your player evaluation skills amaze me!

Cedric
07-31-2004, 01:18 PM
Redsdude- Todd Jones had any value? Come on, let's get real here. Just be honest and say you know NOTHING about this trade, why get so angry on a situation you are ignorant about? I'm ignorant on the subject also, I haven't seen either player play a game.

RedsDude
07-31-2004, 01:27 PM
Redsdude- Todd Jones had any value? Come on, let's get real here. Just be honest and say you know NOTHING about this trade, why get so angry on a situation you are ignorant about? I'm ignorant on the subject also, I haven't seen either player play a game.

i expected jones to be traded in a package with wilson, lidle, graves etc. to get a decent prospect. i know he's a middle releiver, and they don't have much value, but whats the point of trading him when the "prize" you get is a carbon copy of 2-3 other players in your organization?

as far as my player evaluation skills, i've never seen either play, but you can tell a lot from stats and what pro's like the people from BA say. machado has awful stat's at the plate, and the consensus is he's a stud on defense, but won't be a good big-league hitter; sounds pretty familiar, huh? as for the pitcher, i automatically discard any 26 year old "prospect" who has done nothing at the big league level. if he was any good at all, he wouldn't be part of a package to get a middle-releiver.

i guess i just had my hopes up that we could get a real shortstop prospect like kinsler, as opposed to a ray olmedo clone.

westofyou
07-31-2004, 01:31 PM
i expected jones to be traded in a package with wilson, lidle, graves etc. to get a decent prospect.

That's funny, I expected to to be rich and retired by the age of 40.

Funny how expectations come out.

Barbarossa
07-31-2004, 01:46 PM
We can blame it all on Ron?

O'Brien said former Phillies infield instructor Ron Oester, who is now the Red's Minor League Field Coordinator, gave Machado a glowing recommendation.
I feel better already. :)

Buckeye33
07-31-2004, 02:20 PM
I still am laughing out loud at all the people ripping this trade.

Oh goodness, what will the Reds ever do without Todd Jones?!! I might have to quit watching, they just gave up Mariano Rivera Jr.

HAHAHA

Amazing.

buckeyenut
07-31-2004, 02:28 PM
The truly important part of this deal is that it signals to everyone in the baseball world that the Reds are raising the White Flag and that despite what has been said recently, Wilson is a legitimate target so come and get him.

OldXOhio
07-31-2004, 02:37 PM
The truly important part of this deal is that it signals to everyone in the baseball world that the Reds are raising the White Flag and that despite what has been said recently, Wilson is a legitimate target so come and get him.

Nah, that's far too logical and not nearly as much fun. Let's bag on OB over something we know nothing about instead.

Stewie
07-31-2004, 02:48 PM
as for the pitcher, i automatically discard any 26 year old "prospect" who has done nothing at the big league level. if he was any good at all, he wouldn't be part of a package to get a middle-releiver.

i guess i just had my hopes up that we could get a real shortstop prospect like kinsler, as opposed to a ray olmedo clone.

How old was Randy Johnson before he cracked the major leagues? He was 25 before he saw any big league action, and 27 before he had his first decent season. Now he's a sure-fire bet for the Hall of Fame. Now, don't get me wrong, in no way am I saying Hancock is as talented as Johnson, but you can't "discard" a guy solely based on his age. Especially considering the fact that he went to college. Watch him pitch first, and then make a judgement. He's not great, but he could be a solid long man out of the pen. The Phillies have a bunch of young pitchers ahead of him (Madson, Floyd, Hamels, Bucktrot, among others), so Hancock was made expendable.

Todd Jones is 36 and has had his first decent season in awhile. It's tough to get greedy and demand to get a top-nothc prospect for the guy. They got two mid-range prospects, which is about all you can ask for. By that judgement, Danny Graves would then be able to at fetch BJ Upton, and probably a couple other prospects.

RedsDude
07-31-2004, 03:06 PM
i know todd jones couldn't bring a top short-stop prospect. i was hoping we could package him with wilson, lidle or graves etc. to get a top player. obviously a player like upton couldn't be had for anyone in our system, but i think we could have got someone like kinsler or brandon phillips if we got a little more creative.

Marc D
07-31-2004, 04:14 PM
After a night to sleep on it I am still firmly in the good trade camp.

There's a lot of talk on here about Dan O and the fact he hasn't done much/showed anything. I have been pretty skeptical of him myself, but I tried to think of it objectively and this is what I have seen so far. I know I will be corrected if I am way off base....

What has Dan O done so far?
1)He flipped Rietsma for Bong and Nelson while saving payroll
2) Used Jones to give very similar production for less money.
3) Flipped the fill in Jones for two younger mid level prospects who will probably be upgrades over the TVP long relief position and the Castro all-glove-no-hit bench role.
4) This means he will very likely dump Castro and save more money.

In essence he has now turned Rietsma into 3 pitching prospects and a SS prospect while losing no production and creating payroll flex. Very,very Beane-esque if you ask me.

I am the type of person who looks at the principles of a situation more than the specifics. While I will grant you these are not blockbusters, if you look at the essence of what he is doing and project it to bigger deals I am starting to warm to the possibilities of what Dan O might accomplish.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2004, 04:29 PM
Anytime you can get someone to give you a box of baseballs for a 36-year old retread, you've made out on the deal.

Great work, Dan O'Brien. Keep plugging along....one move at a time....and this organization will see better days.

reds44
07-31-2004, 04:53 PM
1st batter Jones faced vs. Cubs he Ked Sosa!

PuffyPig
08-01-2004, 11:11 AM
i know nothing about the pitcher, but i'm sure he stinks.

It's utterly amazing when a poster chooses to show his ignorance (and proves it beyond any shawdow of a doubt) all in the same sentence.

You know nothing about the pitcher, yet you're sure he stinks????? Why not try and find out something BEFORE you reach a conclusion?

Hancock would, at this stage, look pretty similiar to Harang at this time last year.

Machado looks alot like Ordonez, yet he might walk about 100 times a year. Ordonez plus walks = a major league starting SS.

We got Hancock and Machado for Jones. Last year, we got Hummell, Belise and Manning for Sullivan, White, Heredia and Mercker. I'd say that any of those 4 pitchers were as good as Jones, yet we got a better haul for Jones than for those 4 pitchers combined.Yet, some think we got fleeced.

Unbelievable.

CougarQuest
08-01-2004, 12:06 PM
What the Reds got for relief pitchers last year when Allen took over with his minions:

Heredia: placed on waivers, the Yankees claimed him and the Reds let him go. Received absolutely nothing.

Williamson: $1.25M, minor leaguer LHP Phillip Dumatrait, minor leaguer LHP Tyler Pelland.

White: $400,000 and then more Cash in the off season

Merker: AA RHP Matt Belisle

Sullivan and paying half of his remaining salary: Tim Hummel

Koronka: Norton


O'Brien's pitcher moves:

Selected Rule 5 David Mattox from the Mets; Who then went to the DL in ST.

Sold John Bale: Cash from Japan

Traded Reistma: LHP Jung Keun Bong and RHP Bubba Nelson

Traded Charles Manning: LHP Gabe White

Sold Mark Watson: Cash from Japan

Traded Todd Jones and Brad Correll: RHP Josh Hancock and SS Anderson Mercado.

Signed: Cory Lidle, Aaron Myette, Brian Mallette, Mike Matthews, Jesus Sanchez, Benito Baez, Sean Bergman, Elvin Beltre, Wifrin Obispo, Todd Jones, Jeremy Sugarman.

Let go of: Ryan Dempster, Dan Serafini, Scott Service, Carlos Almanzar, Joey Hamilton, Lance Davis, Leonal Arias, Jimmy Haynes, Scott Randall, and Jesus Sanchez.

Krusty
08-01-2004, 12:14 PM
Sometimes you can't asess these deals to three years down the road.

westofyou
08-01-2004, 12:47 PM
Sometimes you can't asess these deals to three years down the road.

If it takes someone 3 years to decide whether this deal is good or bad then I suggest they follow football or another sport.

CougarQuest
08-01-2004, 11:59 PM
You know the more I look at this trade, the more I like it. Compare it to trades the Reds have made of other older, middlin', relief pitchers in the last 10 years. Now add in what we gave up to get Jones to begin with.