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View Full Version : Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley



Kc61
08-30-2004, 11:37 PM
I sense a wide divergence of views on Miley. He's been criticized on game threads lately, particularly for his use of the bullpen. Others have loved the guy since they discovered he is not Bob Boone.

Miley pros. He is not Bob Boone. He doesn't change his lineup for no reason. The players play hard for him. He is low keyed. I think his strategies are generally decent, although not his use of the bullpen. Works cheap. Hasn't had major flare ups with players or GM.

Miley cons. Seems to use bullpen randomly (except the bullpen is so bad what's the difference?). Pulls starters either too early or too late. Seems like a company man; hard to see a positive influence coming from him. Took him a long time to appreciate talents of WMP.

On balance, I would keep Miley next year, but only because Reds are too cheap to get a difference maker to manage the team. Views?

Unassisted
08-30-2004, 11:39 PM
I think Miley's back in 2005 unless there's an unforeseen slide into last place. Right now, there's no catalyst to get rid of a manager who is capable and works cheap.

WVRedsFan
08-31-2004, 12:34 AM
I sense a wide divergence of views on Miley. He's been criticized on game threads lately, particularly for his use of the bullpen. Others have loved the guy since they discovered he is not Bob Boone.

Miley pros. He is not Bob Boone. He doesn't change his lineup for no reason. The players play hard for him. He is low keyed. I think his strategies are generally decent, although not his use of the bullpen. Works cheap. Hasn't had major flare ups with players or GM.

Miley cons. Seems to use bullpen randomly (except the bullpen is so bad what's the difference?). Pulls starters either too early or too late. Seems like a company man; hard to see a positive influence coming from him. Took him a long time to appreciate talents of WMP.

On balance, I would keep Miley next year, but only because Reds are too cheap to get a difference maker to manage the team. Views?

I've been anti-Miley for awhile now. I don't know if it's the frustration of another losing season or the little things he does that drives me crazy.

The Pros - somewhat like you. In fact, totally the comprehensive list, but if that's the only reason to keep a manager, then this franchise will never win another pennant. Simply put, there are talented individuals who motivate even marginal players to play as a team and do their best. I see no evidence of that in our guy. He is too low key. There is no "rah-rah." Name me one successful manager in today's environment without fire.

The Cons - You pretty much hit them all. Of course you missed the biggest one -- he's cheap. Yeah, i know I listed a "con" in the pros column, so add that too. I watched tonight as he sent Phil Norton into the game for the umpteenth time to allow his usual 3 runs--just after we had tied the game. Then comes Reidling (always he is the second pitcher to come in -- get the pattern?), who allows three runs before getting an out. Then you bring in your lefty - White to allow an inherited runner to score. He ended up with Van P--who allows another HR. Where was Wagner? Valentine? Anyone but the designated pitchers? If it ain't on the pre-game schedule we don't do it.

If I'm DanO, I say thank you to Miley and hire my own man. Give Dave a scouting job or something and get who I want. It's going to happen anyway--why delay the pain? But, public pressure will make him yield to an extension for Miley. I can live with it, but can't see any improvement being made in the field management if he stays. IOW's, he was a minor league manager for so long for a reason.

One final thought...Miley is NOT the reason the Reds are doing so poorly. You can point your finger at a bullpen that pitches five innings, allows seven hits (2 of them HR's), seven runs (five earned), and only throws half of their pitches for strikes. FYI, that ERA is 9.00. But to give him an extension because he has a lousy pitching staff excuses all the other errors in judgement--rookie mistakes. Can we afford to give on-the-job training, or should we get a really good manager with experience in this rebuilding time?

It's a tough question. Problem is, most of us have emotional ties one way or another. Let's hope O'Brien has the non-emotional sense to make the right decision.

Krusty
08-31-2004, 12:36 AM
After having Bob Boone for three years, Miley's mistakes are something I can live with for the time being.

WVRedsFan
08-31-2004, 12:40 AM
After having Bob Boone for three years, Miley's mistakes are something I can live with for the time being.

And that's the problem, Krusty. If we always compare everyone to BB, they are much better than they really are.

Then again, if I had to choose BB or DM, I go with Dave. And if they extend his contract, I surely won't throw a hissy fit. But, is he ever going to lead this or any team to the post season? I think the answer is no.

Once again, I hope O'Brien can look at this thing objectively and make the right decision. His past track record is so varied that I don't have a feel on what he will do.

Wheelhouse
08-31-2004, 01:01 AM
I'd only be in favor of pulling Miley for a guy with MAJOR previous success in the bigs, like Leyland, or Davey Johnson. Otherwise, I think he's a good manager in his first full year in the bigs--I'd give him time. Now, I would not be one bit surprised to see him let go--and I wouldn't blame Dan O--if the Reds don't win in 3 years it's Dan O's butt on the line--he should have the guy he wants.

Spring~Fields
08-31-2004, 01:14 AM
I donít like his mixed bag of lineups, Miley doesnít seem to be putting his best forward so to speak when he makes out the card, his lineups seem to give the opposing pitcher and defense a break.

I would like to see him use his best bats up front consistently.

Freel
Dunn
Kearns
Casey
Pena
Jimenez
Lopez
Larue

Miley could at least make the opposing pitcher sweat a bit and work for their wins.

WVRedsFan
08-31-2004, 01:14 AM
I'd only be in favor of pulling Miley for a guy with MAJOR previous success in the bigs, like Leyland, or Davey Johnson. Otherwise, I think he's a good manager in his first full year in the bigs--I'd give him time. Now, I would not be one bit surprised to see him let go--and I wouldn't blame Dan O--if the Reds don't win in 3 years it's Dan O's butt on the line--he should have the guy he wants.

I totally agree. Get with the program or cut bait. If we won't put up for a successful manager, we don't have the commitment to win championships anyway. Miley if this is all we get. Someone else if we have aspirations to win. It's plain as day.

cincinnati chili
08-31-2004, 07:26 AM
It's unlikely, but I would laugh out loud uncontrollably if some other major league team, such as the Diamondbacks, snatched Dave Miley in the off-season. I'm iffy on keeping him. But I think it was majorly bush of the Reds to offer him a one-year contract. Now that he's shown he's competent and perhaps a lot BETTER than competent, he's exposed to the free market.

UKFlounder
08-31-2004, 07:57 AM
It's unlikely, but I would laugh out loud uncontrollably if some other major league team, such as the Diamondbacks, snatched Dave Miley in the off-season. I'm iffy on keeping him. But I think it was majorly bush of the Reds to offer him a one-year contract. Now that he's shown he's competent and perhaps a lot BETTER than competent, he's exposed to the free market.

I thought it was a 1 year deal with a team option for the 2nd year, but perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly.

Chip R
08-31-2004, 08:06 AM
I thought it was a 1 year deal with a team option for the 2nd year, but perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly.
No, you are remembering correctly. Miley isn't going to be a free agent unless the Reds don't want him.

remdog
08-31-2004, 08:43 AM
By Chip: Miley isn't going to be a free agent unless the Reds don't want him.

Works for me.

Rem

Ravenlord
08-31-2004, 09:42 AM
Once again, I hope O'Brien can look at this thing objectively and make the right decision. His past track record is so varied that I don't have a feel on what he will do.
we also need to remember, O'Brien didn't pick Miley, ownership with John Allen did. O'Brien wanted the guy from Tampa Bay.

Krusty
08-31-2004, 09:48 AM
Nah, O'Brien wanted the Pirates director of player development, Brian Grahman, to be the Reds next manager.

Redsland
08-31-2004, 10:39 AM
I don't like the way he consistently lets himself get out-managed during games, and I don't like the way he handles his pitchers.

But what really grates on me is the total lack of fire mentioned by WV above. This guy gets his guts stomped out every night, and instead of showing some emotion about it, he looks at his feet and mumbles something about "finding a way." Dave, if your sucky sucks suck, then you're not going to find a way, because there is no way. So throw some bats, scream at Phil Norton, and show these kids that their sucky sucking isn't how we do things here.

Raisor
08-31-2004, 11:59 AM
There's a free agent manager currently available that I'd much rather have then Miley.

I'm pretty sure there are a couple of you out there who know who that is.

Ravenlord
08-31-2004, 12:01 PM
There's a free agent manager currently available that I'd much rather have then Miley.

I'm pretty sure there are a couple of you out there who know who that is.
would it happen to be the same one i wanted?posted a little blip about him last year that he was interested in coming back...

Raisor
08-31-2004, 12:03 PM
would it happen to be the same one i wanted?posted a little blip about him last year that he was interested in coming back...


His name rhymes with "Larry Dierker"

Ravenlord
08-31-2004, 12:18 PM
:MandJ:

Red Thunder
08-31-2004, 12:52 PM
Miley pros. He is not Bob Boone. He doesn't change his lineup for no reason.

I guess you are not aware how many different lineups Miley has used since taking over the manager position?

KronoRed
08-31-2004, 12:58 PM
Miley cons: sometimes the SS can bat other then 2nd Dave ;)

GAC
08-31-2004, 12:59 PM
Even though I like Dierker, I'm the anti-Raisor and want to see Miley back next year! :mhcky21:

Who was it that voted Miley the NL manager the 1st half of the season? ;)

I give the guy some credit for getting what he did out of this team for the first few months.

And I don't see how he can be accused of mishandling these pitchers (if that is what you want to call them). I'd like to "mishandle" a few of them from the top row of GAB (especially in the BS Pen :MandJ: ).

I haven't always agreed with his lineup shuffling at times; but IMO, the guy deserves another year with this team after all the years he loyally has spent in this organization.

Puffy
08-31-2004, 01:08 PM
He lost me when he batted Castro second the third time. One time I could deal with, twice maybe, but 3 times or more and thats just giving outs away at a position in the batting order that gets more plate appearances than any other spot save the leadoff spot.

The bullpen use - well, no one could make use of that bullpen, but his moves still leave me baffled.

If he stays for another year so be it, I haven't complained about him and I still won't. But Miley is not the guy to take the Reds to the next level if they ever get the pitchers to do so. So when they get to that point Miley needs to be gone, but before that, and it looks to be a good three years away, Miley is not gonna ruin my day (like Bob Boone did)

Raisor
08-31-2004, 01:11 PM
He lost me when he batted Castro second the third time. One time I could deal with, twice maybe, but 3 times or more and thats just giving outs away at a position in the batting order that gets more plate appearances than any other spot save the leadoff spot.



Castro, 89 PA's in the 2-slot. Sub .500 OPS

yikes.

Puffy
08-31-2004, 01:25 PM
Castro, 89 PA's in the 2-slot. Sub .500 OPS

yikes.

89 at bats - thats a horror show in and of itself. :dflynn:

RedsFan75
08-31-2004, 01:29 PM
There's a Japanese league manager that has some MLB experience... He's familiar with Cincinnati. He could be an interesting choice...

Although I'd like Dierker or Miley either one.

remdog
08-31-2004, 01:47 PM
Bring back Boone. ;)

Rem

CTA513
08-31-2004, 02:12 PM
So what if they dump Miley, get another manager & what if he does worse than Miley? Do you dump him for another manager after the end of the year?

You cant put all the blame on Miley, yes he makes some bad decisions, its his 1st time in the majors and he doesnt have a regular 3B, SS, and the outfield has been injured most of the year.

One thing for sure is that we need pitching, and we have known this for years. The young arms reciently brought up seem to be doing well, and have a chance to get warmed up to the big leagues, and possibly start next year.

REDREAD
08-31-2004, 02:55 PM
I'm really not a fan of Miley. He's definitely below average in managing, and is the type of manager that will cost a team at least a few games every year.

Things like batting Castro #2, bringing Reidling in a tie game and letting him give up 7 runs,etc.

If anything, Miley is a symbol of the "old ways". Really, it's a joke that he got the job, primarily because Marty campained for him. Allen and Lindner have no business picking the manager. It should be completely DanO's call.
But as long as Dave is willing to work cheap, I bet he'll hang around 3-4 years.
Then he'll be the convienent scapegoat when this phase of rebuilding doesn't work out.

Oh, how nice it would be not to have to settle for mediocrity.

oneupper
08-31-2004, 03:24 PM
Miley...a favorite target.

Those lineups :thumbdown
Castro 2nd, Jimenez 5th...
Game Management :thumbdown
Not looking ahead, bullpen matchups...

Player Management
Defers to superstars...and not superstars. (JW's ab last night w/bases loaded...he wanted to retire with a bang). Griffey's "rest" in Philly, etc.
Excuses for EVERYONE!

Unclear objectives
(Are we trying to win/spoil give playing time to kids, etc...)

On the bright side, he made a few decisions early on (bye, bye, Jimmy, demoting Jr in the order, etc.) that were valuable.

Miley's good for a 3rd or 4th place finish, but won't make a run with a "good" (as opposed to great) team, since he won't account for those extra 5-10 wins IMO a very good manager can provide.

If mediocre is good enough...Miley's your man.

Rojo
08-31-2004, 03:48 PM
In his favor, we've had more young players take a big step forward than we have in years.

traderumor
08-31-2004, 04:17 PM
Last year St. Louis fans were complaining about how Tony LaRussa used his bullpen. This year he's a genious again (noted by others again, not his own self-proclamation ;). What's the difference? The bullpen is performingwhereas last year he had all kind of problems out there. However, a con with Miley is that he did not recognize early in the year that he could not use a status quo bullpen pecking order and get success. Even now, he keeps using Riedling and Norton when other options are available. But, his bullpen usage would greatly improve with some better arms out there, as relievers make managers look good when they come in and get batters out and make them look dumb when they don't. I think the Reds need to concern themselves with getting better players moreso than they need a new manager to manage them.

Red Thunder
08-31-2004, 05:25 PM
In his favor, we've had more young players take a big step forward than we have in years.

But with Wily Mo for example the step occured despite Miley, who would rather let Romano, Cruz or someone else play.

Miley is not the problem with the Reds, neither was Bob Boone or Jack McKeon or Ray Knight the problem before. Over the last years it's lack of starting pitching and injuries to important players, which made it impossible for the managers to post a winning record. I would love to see that the Reds give a manager a long term contract and make a statement concerning stability from this position .... but I guess currently it's more welcome to have another possible scapegoat in Miley so that the public is focussing less on the most urgent need, which still is starting pitching & successfull player development.

Tony Cloninger
08-31-2004, 05:41 PM
I agree Red Thunder.

While there are things that bother me about DM and that have been stated here......it is still hard to win w/constant injuries and bad pitchers.

Miley does not help his cause with batting Lopez higher than 8th...EVER.

Hubba
08-31-2004, 07:33 PM
REDREAD Are you a female?

guernsey
08-31-2004, 09:41 PM
Where's princeton and his annual plea for Whitey Herzog?

letsgojunior
08-31-2004, 09:52 PM
REDREAD Are you a female?

What difference does that make?

airalex
08-31-2004, 09:52 PM
What difference does that make?

I was just thinkin the same thing.

REDREAD
08-31-2004, 10:17 PM
REDREAD Are you a female?

Let me check.. No.. I'm still male.

Sorry if I accidently turned you on :MandJ:

2001MUgrad
08-31-2004, 11:06 PM
But what really grates on me is the total lack of fire mentioned by WV above. This guy gets his guts stomped out every night, and instead of showing some emotion about it, he looks at his feet and mumbles something about "finding a way." Dave, if your sucky sucks suck, then you're not going to find a way, because there is no way. So throw some bats, scream at Phil Norton, and show these kids that their sucky sucking isn't how we do things here.

While I don't disagree with that, its different strokes for different folks so to speak. I can see how both styles can and do work.. But look at a firey guy like Larry Bowa, didn't get anywhere this year..
Also, we should have had a firey manager starting off the 2001 season. His name was Ron Oester(SP), but we all know what happened there, and I wouldn't be oposed to seeing him manage the Reds.

But, I'm still for Miley right now. He hasn't shown me enough to dislike him yet. Usually he takes his starters out before they blow up unlike Boone he would leave Haynes etc. out there just long enough to give up 5 runs, but with Miley you can't help it when Acevedo gives up 5 runs in the second or Harrang gives up back to back to back homers in the 4th, but in general I think he handles to starters okay. The bullpen, who knows. You can only use what you have and he doesn't have much.. Its sickening to see Norton out there constantly blow leads or Graves too, but you have to ride the horse you have. Boone on the other hand had a tremendous BP and it should have been his goal to get the starters to pitch 5-6 innings and not expect anymore, but yet he always stretched them just long enough to give up the 6 spot..
After have the BB and see how he would constantly micro manage its good to see Miley stick with a set lineup and for the guys to know what the deal is before they show up the next day. While he should probably tinker with it more from time to time, compared to BB constantly having a different batting order. It has to be nice to know if you are Ryan Freel that if you go 0-4 that you aren't going to be batting 8th or benched for poor performance. It has to be a releif for AD to know that if he strikes out 4 times one night he will have a chance to redem himself. BB would pull that crap for 1 time random performance.. And see the many escapades of Jose Guillen to see how BB would screw with players heads..

NC Reds
08-31-2004, 11:52 PM
I'd like Miley to get a second year. Considering how the FO depleted his bullpen I think he did OK. I'll expect a winning season though next year.

WVRedsFan
09-01-2004, 12:07 AM
Miley...a favorite target.

If mediocre is good enough...Miley's your man.

Well, now that you mention it, I agree with that. And that's not a real cut on Dave Miley. He simply will never guide a team to the World Series. Witness tonight. He benches Kearns in favor of Freel, who should be playing third base. Instead, for some odd reason, he plays Lopez. His best lineup (moving from first base around the infield and outfield) is Casey, Jiminez, Larkin, Freel, Dunn, Pena, Kearns, LaRue, and the so-called pitcher. Hands down. Kearns is finally showing some pop in his bat, and unless he is hurting, should be in the lineup. He wasn't.

Harang has his first bad outing in a month, but still only allows 4 runs. A few runs would help, but our #5 hitter is batting .256 with very little pop and our #6 guy is also at .256 but swinging a hot bat with lots of pop. What gives? He allows Joe Valentine to get his brains beat out in the ninth, though we were only 4 down. This team has scored that many a lot of times.

Then there is his tendency to play Javier Valentin at catcher at odd times. The Romano and Cruz situations, and bringing Norton in time after time to allow a couple of runs.

I'm beating a dead horse here and I truly like Miley, but if he is offered an extention this year, we'll have him a long, long time. And unless he learns a lot (and I sincerely hope he does), we'll have some good, not great, teams that won't make the playoffs due to his managing. Sorry. This will be my last post on the subject, but I've seen so many stay here only because of "loyalty." Loyalty doesn't have any talent nor play a position, so going with that does not a champion make...

GAC
09-01-2004, 06:01 AM
I blame this FO for giving Miley the BP that they did in 2004. They've blown 30+ games this year for us when we were either tied or in the lead in late innings.

I agreed with the decisions they made last year in trading away those guys they did (free agents, arb eligible). The only one who is having any type of sucess out of the whole lot is Reitsma.

And we got White back at alot cheaper rate.

But what I didn't agree with was the hap-hazard way inwhich they handed the '04 BP over to a bunch of "unprovens" and young arms that have no track record of success out of the BP (exception was Jones). They went into this season "on a wing and a prayer" when it came to this BP. It was unacceptable IMO. Yes, injuires hurt us again. But this BP really screwed any chance we had this year.

I'm hoping that this FO (espcially DanO) will take the steps to correct this in the off-season. It simply takes doing their homework, which they didn't do going into this season.

Think how much better this team would have done with, and will do next year, if they just address the issue of this BP.

Kc61
09-01-2004, 12:25 PM
But with Wily Mo for example the step occured despite Miley, who would rather let Romano, Cruz or someone else play.

Miley is not the problem with the Reds, neither was Bob Boone or Jack McKeon or Ray Knight the problem before. Over the last years it's lack of starting pitching and injuries to important players, which made it impossible for the managers to post a winning record. I would love to see that the Reds give a manager a long term contract and make a statement concerning stability from this position .... but I guess currently it's more welcome to have another possible scapegoat in Miley so that the public is focussing less on the most urgent need, which still is starting pitching & successfull player development.

I just disagree that a manager who fails is necessarily a "scapegoat." The Reds have won in recent years with name managers with track records. Piniella, Johnson, McKeon. Anderson was not a proven manager, but came from another organization (San Diego) and was selected on perceived merit. Not a "company man."

I believe that managers and coaches make a big difference in professional sports today. While guys like Boone, Knight or Miley are good baseball men, there is no substitute for a difference-making manager, someone who has shown that he knows how to win at the major league level.

Miley is fine if the Reds want to go the "good baseball man" route; perhaps he will get even better with more major league experience. But a real team would want a proven winning manager.

P.S. I think one reason the Red Sox always lose to the Yankees is their unwillingness to hire big time managers. Maybe Francona will prove me wrong.

Boss-Hog
09-01-2004, 12:30 PM
I agreed with the decisions they made last year in trading away those guys they did (free agents, arb eligible). The only one who is having any type of sucess out of the whole lot is Reitsma.GAC, I agree with the premise of your post, (that we generally shouldn't be overpaying for bullpen arms with inflating salaries) but if our alternative is to trade or non-tender every solid (or in Williamson's case, better than that) player once they are arbitration eligible, we're going to continue to end up with black holes like the 2004 bullpen.

Red Thunder
09-01-2004, 01:01 PM
I believe that managers and coaches make a big difference in professional sports today.

Lou Piniella
2001: Mariners 116 Wins / 46 Losses (.716)
2002: Mariners 93 Wins / 69 Losses (.574)
2003: Devil Rays 63 Wins / 99 Losses (.389)

What difference did Piniella make for the Devil Rays?

Othe examples:
- Joe Torre had a .471 winning percentage as manager before joining the Yankees.
- Lou Piniella led the Reds to 5th place with nearly the identical team which won the World Series a year before.
- Sparky Anderson finished last with the Tigers.
- Tony LaRussa finished first as well as last with the A's during the 90's.

Despite changing from Tom Robson to Chris Chambliss as hitting coach, the Reds are once again among the league leaders in strike outs.

When do you blame a manager/coach for success or failure and when the team or individuals? My impression is that a lot of fans are comfortable to blame the manager when they have a personal agenda against him, as it is so hard to show evidence that a team would actually be better with someone else. This years edition of the Reds proves that they are not better than last season, despite a new skipper.



Miley is fine if the Reds want to go the "good baseball man" route ...
Which good baseball man would play Castro (and his .280 OBP) continously instead of Freel, Larson, Lopez or whoever and then even bat him second? With Miley the worst position player on the team has already 250 at bats!? How can you justify that with better options at hand?

Kc61
09-01-2004, 01:14 PM
Not saying Piniella wins every year or is a miracle worker. Managers and teams don't always mesh and even great managers have bad seasons. But Piniella has shown the ability to achieve big things with teams. I also believe that the Devil Rays will become a contender with Lou, if he stays around long enough.

The problem, of course, is that difference-making managers earn money and usually ask the team to spend money on players.

LINEDRIVER
09-01-2004, 01:26 PM
The sports page has turned into the comic page in one respect. At least a few days a week, I can just about expect to read (and chuckle) at Miley's, "We've got to get the bats going", or "We've got to get the bullpen going" quotes.

I was wondering awhile back and I'm wondering again if Miley isnt a bit too soft on the boys. I'd like to know that he's jumping on somebody's case every now and then when they need it. I was hoping that Ronnie Oester would of been part of Miley's coaching staff because "O" would let a player know just what is expected and how quickly it better start happening. I think every team needs a "hatchet man" type coach on the staff. LOL

Red Thunder
09-01-2004, 01:26 PM
Patience of Reds fans ran out after two years with Bob Boone, who managed a total of six years overall. During his time with the Royals and Reds he posted a .455 winning percentage.

Now look at one of the all-time great managers: Bobby Cox
After his first 6 years of managing his winning percentage was .458

Interesting, ain't it?

oneupper
09-01-2004, 01:43 PM
We can all get off on Bob Boone since he was not successful with the Reds.
But if we can give him credit for one thing it is "preaching patience" to our hitters, and going for those "quality at-bats" (perhaps too much so). It sank in to some of the young hitters.

That patience was evident during the first few months of 2004, when the Reds led the NL in walks. Now our guys are out there swinging a borderline 2-0 pitches and what not. Is that Miley or Chambliss? Is it better now?

I don't want Boone back, but not all Boone was bad...

Managers do make a difference, but they cannot "work miracles" and must "fit" the team.

Boss-Hog
09-01-2004, 02:30 PM
Red Thunder, I know you were a big Boone apologist, but let's look at it like this: someone obviously saw something in Bobby Cox during those first six years that made them believe he would win some games down the road, and obviously, he did. However, watching Bob Boone manage the Reds for 2 and a half years, I never, ever saw anything that made me believe he would be a guy that was capable of taking a team to the postseason; obviously, John Allen agreed with that. I'm not a huge fan of Miley, but I do find it refreshing to have a manager that doesn't act as if he invented the game; Boone gave you that impression and players' quotes from earlier this year back that up. Now here's the point: despite Cox and Boone's first six years being remarkably similar in terms of winning percentage, I'll put any amount of money on Bob Boone never sniffing another major league manager job.


Patience of Reds fans ran out after two years with Bob Boone, who managed a total of six years overall. During his time with the Royals and Reds he posted a .455 winning percentage.

Now look at one of the all-time great managers: Bobby Cox
After his first 6 years of managing his winning percentage was .458

Interesting, ain't it?

Kc61
09-01-2004, 02:53 PM
Red Thunder, I know you were a big Boone apologist, but let's look at it like this: someone obviously saw something in Bobby Cox during those first six years that made them believe he would win some games down the road, and obviously, he did. However, watching Bob Boone manage the Reds for 2 and a half years, I never, ever saw anything that made me believe he would be a guy that was capable of taking a team to the postseason; obviously, John Allen agreed with that. I'm not a huge fan of Miley, but I do find it refreshing to have a manager that doesn't act as if he invented the game; Boone gave you that impression and players' quotes from earlier this year back that up. Now here's the point: despite Cox and Boone's first six years being remarkably similar in terms of winning percentage, I'll put any amount of money on Bob Boone never sniffing another major league manager job.

Just to clarify on Bobby Cox, when Atlanta hired him he already had a long and distinguished career in Toronto. I think he may have been GM there for awhile. But I know he managed the Blue Jays for 4 seasons, had winning records in 3, and won a division title. Reds haven't hired anyone with his credentials in years.

Red Thunder
09-01-2004, 02:57 PM
I agree with what you wrote Boss Hogg. It was not Bob Boone that I especially cared about .... I generally favour that managers and general managers are hired for an extended period of time. And this year proves in my opinion, that with the current situation of the Reds no manager would be able to finish above .500. Bobby Cox might milk out some more wins, but currently this would make no difference as the Reds are out of the race for other reasons than the manager & coaches.

John Allen & Jim Bowden should have known what kind of manager they hired with Bob Boone. He managed the Reds like he managed the Royals. What did they expect as they already knew his style? There is probably a lot going on behind the scenes what the regular fan (better) never knows. Nothing against Miley, if he was really the man to go to I would have given him a 4-year contract. On the other hand, if the Reds were looking so hard for a top manager out there at a reasonable price, why didn't they even interview this man?



Larry Dierker

Year League Team G W L WP Finish
+----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
1997 NL Cent Houston 162 84 78 .519 1
1998 NL Cent Houston 162 102 60 .630 1
1999 NL Cent Houston 162 97 65 .599 1
2000 NL Cent Houston 162 72 90 .444 4
2001 NL Cent Houston 162 93 69 .574 1
+----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
TOTAL 810 448 362 .553

Boss-Hog
09-01-2004, 03:57 PM
I agree with what you wrote Boss Hogg. It was not Bob Boone that I especially cared about .... I generally favour that managers and general managers are hired for an extended period of time. And this year proves in my opinion, that with the current situation of the Reds no manager would be able to finish above .500. Bobby Cox might milk out some more wins, but currently this would make no difference as the Reds are out of the race for other reasons than the manager & coaches.

John Allen & Jim Bowden should have known what kind of manager they hired with Bob Boone. He managed the Reds like he managed the Royals. What did they expect as they already knew his style? There is probably a lot going on behind the scenes what the regular fan (better) never knows. Nothing against Miley, if he was really the man to go to I would have given him a 4-year contract. On the other hand, if the Reds were looking so hard for a top manager out there at a reasonable price, why didn't they even interview this man?



Larry Dierker

Year League Team G W L WP Finish
+----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
1997 NL Cent Houston 162 84 78 .519 1
1998 NL Cent Houston 162 102 60 .630 1
1999 NL Cent Houston 162 97 65 .599 1
2000 NL Cent Houston 162 72 90 .444 4
2001 NL Cent Houston 162 93 69 .574 1
+----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
TOTAL 810 448 362 .553
RT, I agree with you on Dierker. The problem is that he likely would have (and still would) command a salary more than the Reds are willing to pay for a manager. And that, of course, is how we ended up with Bob Boone (not that I wanted OESTER! anymore than Boone, if he was the alternative, though). I don't think Bowden had anything to do with Boone being hired - it was fairly well known that he preferred Lou, Willie Randolph, or several other choices before we 'settled' on Boone.

LINEDRIVER
09-01-2004, 10:27 PM
Larry Dierker? He went thru a major health issue a few yrs ago. Could it be that Larry is 'not the same Larry' since the brain surgery??? I dont know. Im just wondering and asking. Maybe he's not interested in managing anymore and would rather play golf. His name doesnt seem to come up in big league circles, only here in RedsZone. Just seems to me that there is a reason why he hasnt managed anywhere since Houston, yet a few folks seem to think the Reds are really missing the boat for not hiring him.

Red Thunder
09-02-2004, 04:47 AM
From Dierker's book "This ain't brain surgery", published in 2003:
(A very good read, in my opinion)

"The thing that surprised me more than anything was that I wasn't contacted about several managing vacancies; our beat writer, Jesus Ortiz, called to tell me that my name had come up with regard to the Kansas City job, but the Royals never spoke with me. I had been careful not to say that I would never manage again. I didn't think I would, but I could envision a circumstance where I might throw my hat in the ring. After the season, there were many openings, and still no calls. Maybe all the general managers thought the four division championships were a fluke, and maybe they're right. I know it didn't happen just because of my leadership.

I finally received a call about managing in eraly November 2002. At that time, the Brewers, Cubs and Mariners were still looking for a skipper. Alan Nero, who negotiated Art Howe's deal with the Mets wanted to know if I was interested in getting back in the dugout. I didn't have any interest in the Brewers job because I didn't think they stood a chance of winning. The Cubs appeared to have enough pitching to make a run at it. I studied the Mariners and I was convinced that they had a good chance to beat the ANgels and A's in 2003. I told Alan that I would consider those jobs, but I never heard back from him. I still don't know if I threw my hat into the rin too late or if they just weren't interested"

GAC
09-02-2004, 07:00 AM
GAC, I agree with the premise of your post, (that we generally shouldn't be overpaying for bullpen arms with inflating salaries) but if our alternative is to trade or non-tender every solid (or in Williamson's case, better than that) player once they are arbitration eligible, we're going to continue to end up with black holes like the 2004 bullpen.

And I understand what you are saying Boss, but I don't think that that is gonna be this organization's approach just because they did this last year with guys like Sully, Williamson, Heredia, White, Mercker, and then Dempster. You have to look at what these guys were making last year, and what they would have gotten via arbitration or free agency if we had tried to retain them.

But also...can a team viably replace them? YES they can...but they didn't. That was/is my beef.

And I guess foresight is everything, but you also have to know when to cut ties. As Kenny Rogers once sang.... "You gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them." :MandJ:

What have those players we let go accomplished this year? Looking at that, we made the right decisions (with the exception maybe being Reitsma).

As I stated above, my biggest problem with this FO in this area was that they tried to get by "on the cheap", or maybe felt these younger arms could fill the void created by the exit of these guys, in an area that we have in previous years been very strong in... our BP. It was a HUGE miscalculation on this FO's part IMO. When you haven't been able to build a reliable starting rotation in the last several years, then one area that had always been a plus for us was our BP.

IMO... they got burned BIG TIME in '04, and they had better do something to fix it or we'll have the same problems in '05, even though I am alot more optimistic about the young arms in this rotation, as compared to what we have ran out there over these last several years. But these young guys right now have shown me that, due to inexperience, they are good for about 6 innings (a quality start). But if you're handing the ball/game over to an inept BP, then you're in trouble and wasting the effort. It's all for naught.

My eyes will be on this FO (especially O'Brien) in the off-season, and at what they are going to do to fix this BP, more then any other area/holes on this team.

We have some good solid core players on this team right now, and going into 2005. And we have the opportunity, and we can't waste it, to "complement" that core by simply strengthening this BP.

Chip R
09-02-2004, 07:26 AM
Sounds like Dierker's kind of picky about any managerial openings. If he didn't want to go to MIL, why would he want to come here?

Getting back to Miley, I think he would be a lot better manager if he had a halfway decent bullpen and starters who could go 6-7 innings on a regular basis. I don't know if this is his fault or not but I don't see the Reds capitalizing on opportunities any more than they did last season. I didn't care for his reluctance to play WMP when Kearns was hurt. However Ryan Freel has been a pleasant surprise. He's one of those gritty players that Reds fans seem to love. But unlike some of hes predecessors Freel can actually produce when he's in there. He's no all star but I'm comfortable with him leading off. I think the players like him because they know they will get to play and Miley probably tells them a few days in advance when they will play. You may not like his playing Bragg, Castro and Valentin but it isn't like he's got a lot of choices out there.

I'm more than willing to give Miley another year or two managing this team. I'd hate to see this job become a revolving door.

Boss-Hog
09-02-2004, 01:33 PM
And I understand what you are saying Boss, but I don't think that that is gonna be this organization's approach just because they did this last year with guys like Sully, Williamson, Heredia, White, Mercker, and then Dempster. You have to look at what these guys were making last year, and what they would have gotten via arbitration or free agency if we had tried to retain them.

But also...can a team viably replace them? YES they can...but they didn't. That was/is my beef.

And I guess foresight is everything, but you also have to know when to cut ties. As Kenny Rogers once sang.... "You gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them." :MandJ:

What have those players we let go accomplished this year? Looking at that, we made the right decisions (with the exception maybe being Reitsma).

As I stated above, my biggest problem with this FO in this area was that they tried to get by "on the cheap", or maybe felt these younger arms could fill the void created by the exit of these guys, in an area that we have in previous years been very strong in... our BP. It was a HUGE miscalculation on this FO's part IMO. When you haven't been able to build a reliable starting rotation in the last several years, then one area that had always been a plus for us was our BP.

IMO... they got burned BIG TIME in '04, and they had better do something to fix it or we'll have the same problems in '05, even though I am alot more optimistic about the young arms in this rotation, as compared to what we have ran out there over these last several years. But these young guys right now have shown me that, due to inexperience, they are good for about 6 innings (a quality start). But if you're handing the ball/game over to an inept BP, then you're in trouble and wasting the effort. It's all for naught.

My eyes will be on this FO (especially O'Brien) in the off-season, and at what they are going to do to fix this BP, more then any other area/holes on this team.

We have some good solid core players on this team right now, and going into 2005. And we have the opportunity, and we can't waste it, to "complement" that core by simply strengthening this BP.
I agree with just about everything you said there.

Kc61
09-03-2004, 11:58 PM
If I were O'Brien I would be concerned about Miley's late season performance. As the season winds down, the team is in disarray. Its play is getting worse by the game. The bullpen is a complete joke. Some of the veterans look disgusted or embarrassed.

I know about the injuries and the deficiencies, but Miley seems to be losing the team, at least in terms of performance.

ODERED
09-04-2004, 12:11 AM
Just a gut feeling, but I don't get the feeling that Miley enjoys being the Reds skipper. I have felt this way all season long about him. Some just don't have it in their blood to manage sky-rocketing egoes, and there must be a reason why he was a minor league manager all these years. Nice guys usually do finish last.