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DunnersGrl44
09-06-2004, 03:50 AM
http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/09/06/miley906.rtf.html


I for one am very happy about this information!

Aronchis
09-06-2004, 04:43 AM
The good ole boy network strikes again. I thought between Miley/Gullet, one would at least be gone. Sadly the changes I forecasted didn't pan out. You get yourself entrenched within this organization, it is hard to get you out. Hopefully Naehring and Allen are gone, though Allen would be academic since he is the middle man right now.

KronoRed
09-06-2004, 06:37 AM
Hohum, I'm willing to give them another year

GAC
09-06-2004, 06:41 AM
He deserves another year seeing the loyalty and commitment he has made to this organization for the last 20 years. He was voted the NL manager for the first 1/2 of the season wasn't he?

And give the guy a BP and decent bench in '05!! Pinella or Johnson wouldn't have done any better with this team IMO.

KronoRed
09-06-2004, 07:01 AM
True for Miley, but I'm starting to question the loyalty to Gullet

Red Thunder
09-06-2004, 08:14 AM
So actually the result under Miley is about the same as with Bob Boone.

I see some irony in this. Btw, has anyone counted Miley's different lineups so far this season ;) ? The more things change, the more they seem to stay the same (in the Reds case).

max venable
09-06-2004, 08:22 AM
Souldn't we judge Miley more on his pre-All Star record and less on his post-All Star?

I mean, until Griffey and Kearns and Larkin got hurt, he had this team in contention.

ODERED
09-06-2004, 09:46 AM
Wrong. Until the other teams started rearing their ugly heads in talent, and until the team started just going through the motions, Miley had the team in contention. Oh, and I'd bet anything (though it's all just hindsight) that Piniella would have given this club 10-15 more wins than what it has at this point. One thing that Lou does very well is demonstrate that the only person holding the reins is HIM. His lineup cards would never have Castro batting second, because positions don't dictate batting order. Lou dictates batting order. Norton wouldn't be trodding out there at the same time to lose the game in the same way. A pitcher's title doesn't dictate his time of appearance. Lou would dicatate that. If you don't perform well, Lou will dictate your riding the pine, and that is what I love about him. Wait, did I mention anything about Lou fighting for his team?

Unassisted
09-06-2004, 10:40 AM
Oh, and I'd bet anything (though it's all just hindsight) that Piniella would have given this club 10-15 more wins than what it has at this point. Moot point. No way that this club pays Lou the $2M/yr he would want to work in Cincinnati. You'll needlessly raise your own blood pressure wishing for things that the Reds can't afford.

LvJ
09-06-2004, 10:50 AM
Miley isn't/wasn't the problem. He's a fine manager and the guys like him.

Yeah, you don't always agree with his lineupes, but if we actually had a pitching staff this year, and went without all the injuries to key players, Miley's job wouldn't have looked so hard (or appearently, it's just too easy according to some people on this board). Give him more than a year and a half with scrubs. Get him a real pitching staff, Dano.

dman
09-06-2004, 10:52 AM
Moot point. No way that this club pays Lou the $2M/yr he would want to work in Cincinnati. You'll needlessly raise your own blood pressure wishing for things that the Reds can't afford.


We need to clarify something here. Is it that the Reds can't afford $2M/yr for Lou or is it that they won't part with the $2M/yr for him? I think we all know what the true answer is here.

Krusty
09-06-2004, 10:55 AM
Bottom line is Miley had to work with a weak bench, no real starting pitching, a bullpen that imploded the second half of the season, and once again a key injury to the most important player on the team.

If the Reds spent 10 million more instead of cutting 10 million on the payroll, I think we would have seen a world of difference.

RBA
09-06-2004, 11:59 AM
Monday, September 6, 2004
It's official: Miley back for '05


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM O'Brien says rest of coaching staff will return, too

By John Fay
Enquirer staff writer


MILWAUKEE - Reds general manager Dan O'Brien said Sunday what he has hinted at for the last month or so:

Dave Miley and his staff will be back for 2005.

"As we have said from Day 1, I think Dave and his staff have done an excellent job and our intent to continue with that staff as a group is going forward," O'Brien said.

This year's staff includes hitting coach Chris Chambliss, third base coach Mark Berry, first base coach Randy Whisler, pitching coach Don Gullett, bullpen coach Tom Hume and bench coach Jerry Narron.

Miley, 42, signed a one-year contract with a club option for 2005 when he was named the permanent manager Dec. 4, 2003.

O'Brien has said all season that Miley's situation would be dealt with after the season.

But it has become clear in the last month or so that O'Brien was going to keep Miley and his staff.

The Reds haven't played as well as Miley or O'Brien would have liked. The Reds stood at 63-73 after Sunday's win over Milwaukee. But the club was 46-40 and in the thick of the wild-card race when outfielder Ken Griffey Jr. was lost for the season.

With a young team - the Reds start four players under 25 and they only have one starting pitcher over 27 - O'Brien measures success by rate of improvement.

"I think our staff - individually and collectively - are as good a teaching unit as there is in the game," O'Brien said. "We work on things every day. I think the players not only understand it, they appreciate it.

"(The staff's) goal is to make every single player better every day. I'm very proud of our staff."

Chambliss, Whisler and Narron were hired by Miley.

Chambliss gets a lot of credit for the improvement of outfielder Adam Dunn and emergence of outfielder Wily Mo Pena. Whisler, who coaches infield defense, has made progress with second baseman D'Angelo Jimenez and shortstop Felipe Lopez.

"There's been improvement in a lot of different areas," O'Brien said. "The challenge is to carry forth that consistently through 162 games. You see streaks and periods (where the) execution level is where it needs to be. Then you see stretches where we're a little short."

jmcclain19
09-06-2004, 12:00 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27996

CougarQuest
09-06-2004, 12:26 PM
a bullpen that imploded the second half of the season,
Krusty
You could have left out these words: "the second half of the season"

DunnersGrl44
09-06-2004, 12:30 PM
I for one, am really happy that Miley is back. You can't be held accountable for a bad team. In order for ANY manager to be successful in Cincinnati, you need better players. Plain and simple.

guernsey
09-06-2004, 12:31 PM
Well, one less soap opera for Reds Zone to write about over the last month of the season.

Glad DanO made the decision earlier instead of later.

CougarQuest
09-06-2004, 12:38 PM
But what happened to not talking about contracts until the season is over? Does this put Dan in a position to talk contract with Larkin and others?

jmcclain19
09-06-2004, 12:38 PM
I like the decision being made now. No sense in hanging it out there.

I've seen Miley doing some smart moves of late, managing for next year rather than trying to save his bacon for this year, such as marching Felipe Lopez out there every day whether Larkin is healthy or not.

I don't see any other managers out there who would be willing to work with as little as the Reds have for as little money. Miley's had some ups and downs, enough to warrant another year. If it doesn't work out after next season, you cut your losses and move on.

jmcclain19
09-06-2004, 12:39 PM
But what happened to not talking about contracts until the season is over? Does this put Dan in a position to talk contract with Larkin and others?
I don't think it was a discussion, so much as it was a club option for next year. O'Brien had to make the decision to say yes or no to the option. That's not really a contract discussion. The contract is already signed.

CougarQuest
09-06-2004, 12:41 PM
I don't think it was a discussion, so much as it was a club option for next year. O'Brien had to make the decision to say yes or no to the option. That's not really a contract discussion. The contract is already signed.
But Dan said he wouldn't talk about it previously until the season was over, now he's done an about face.

CougarQuest
09-06-2004, 12:47 PM
What is nice about this is this gives Dan O'Brien all off season to work on players. And the players that are here and free agents who will be contacted know who the manager/coaches are immediately.

traderumor
09-06-2004, 01:26 PM
But Dan said he wouldn't talk about it previously until the season was over, now he's done an about face.My understanding is that was for contract talks with players. Like a previous poster said, this was about picking up an option on a signed contract anyhoo. Far be it from me to let an opportunity to hair split go by ;)

Matt700wlw
09-06-2004, 01:28 PM
About freakin' time


What happened to the non-negotiations of contracts during the season? Oh, they contradicted themselves again

Typical -- but when Paul Wilson signs elsewhere in the offseaon, DanO will look more like an idiot than he already does for not trading him when the oppourtunity was there

RosieRed
09-06-2004, 02:06 PM
But Dan said he wouldn't talk about it previously until the season was over, now he's done an about face.

Yep. Just this past Saturday (Sept. 4), George and Chris had O'Brien in the booth with them for an inning. And they asked him if the situation with Miley was still the same, that a decision wouldn't be made about picking up his option until after the season. O'Brien said yes, the situation was still the same, and that a decision would be made after the season is over.

guernsey
09-06-2004, 02:09 PM
But Dan said he wouldn't talk about it previously until the season was over, now he's done an about face.

Good for him.

WVRedsFan
09-06-2004, 02:38 PM
OK...let me get this straight.

A team or business is doing poorly. You need something to shake it up. In most cases, you see a change in personnel and definitely a change in leadership. Not here.

I have said that I have no problem with Miley coming back, but I didn't see him leading this team (or any team) to a World Series. I still believe that. But, unless some big changes are made on the personnel front, it doesn't make any difference anyway. Yes, Lou or Joe Torre could have us over .500 even with our personnel, but what good would that do. We'd still be watching the WS on TV anyway.

I'm looking for some changes from DanO. If we don't see any, expect the same thing next year--a fast start and a slow drop to the cellar.

LINEDRIVER
09-06-2004, 02:46 PM
But what happened to not talking about contracts until the season is over? Does this put Dan in a position to talk contract with Larkin and others?

The 'negotiating' level of Miley's and the coaches contracts is probably somewhere between little and none. DanO tells them that their contracts will be renewed at x amount of dollars if they are interested. They say "yes" and "thank you" as the process for each man takes about 30 seconds.

RosieRed
09-06-2004, 02:53 PM
OK...let me get this straight.

A team or business is doing poorly. You need something to shake it up. In most cases, you see a change in personnel and definitely a change in leadership. Not here.

Maybe you're referring to ownership here, but I'll just add the obligatory reminder that "leadership" just changed last year (in DanO and Miley).

And I fail to see how Lou or Torre could have the Reds over .500 with this staff. How do you (and others) figure that?

traderumor
09-06-2004, 03:04 PM
OK...let me get this straight.

A team or business is doing poorly. You need something to shake it up. In most cases, you see a change in personnel and definitely a change in leadership. Not here.

I have said that I have no problem with Miley coming back, but I didn't see him leading this team (or any team) to a World Series. I still believe that. But, unless some big changes are made on the personnel front, it doesn't make any difference anyway. Yes, Lou or Joe Torre could have us over .500 even with our personnel, but what good would that do. We'd still be watching the WS on TV anyway.

I'm looking for some changes from DanO. If we don't see any, expect the same thing next year--a fast start and a slow drop to the cellar.
When did Joe Torre become a good manager?

Pre-NYY Record 894-1003, a smooth .471 winning percentage. Guess he must have suddenly become a genius after three prior mediocre to bad stints?

Reds4Life
09-06-2004, 04:11 PM
When did Joe Torre become a good manager?

Yea, why would be he considered a good manager, he's only got a a few world series rings and few 100+ win seasons in the last 5 or 6 years. :rolleyes:

LvJ
09-06-2004, 04:48 PM
Yea, why would be he considered a good manager, he's only got a a few world series rings and few 100+ win seasons in the last 5 or 6 years. :rolleyes:

I will not argue if he's good or not, but c'mon now - give any big league manager those players and it'll be darn hard NOT to win. Egos or not.

Matt700wlw
09-06-2004, 04:49 PM
Bob Boone could win with that lineup

johngalt
09-06-2004, 04:50 PM
Yea, why would be he considered a good manager, he's only got a a few world series rings and few 100+ win seasons in the last 5 or 6 years. :rolleyes:

The point is he "became" a good manager at the same time he joined the Yankees and all of their talented players and resources. I think Torre's a pretty decent manager, but you'd have to be a horrible manager to not win a World Series or two with the players they've had and the front office's commitment to winning each year.

Matt700wlw
09-06-2004, 04:51 PM
The point is he "became" a good manager at the same time he joined the Yankees and all of their talented players and resources. I think Torre's a pretty decent manager, but you'd have to be a horrible manager to not win a World Series or two with the players they've had and the front office's commitment to winning each year.

A commitment to winning...someone inform that billionaire, Carl Lindner what that is

That used to be the commitment of the Reds, but that was a long time ago

ODERED
09-06-2004, 04:59 PM
We need to clarify something here. Is it that the Reds can't afford $2M/yr for Lou or is it that they won't part with the $2M/yr for him? I think we all know what the true answer is here.

EXACTLY. The Reds can afford to pay a $2 million manager that will get more out of his players than most other managers could even dream of. But, why the Reds would rather allocate that money to crappola pitchers is beyond me.

ODERED
09-06-2004, 05:03 PM
What is nice about this is this gives Dan O'Brien all off season to work on players. And the players that are here and free agents who will be contacted know who the manager/coaches are immediately.

LOL, oh the irony. DOB will work on players? What's he going to do? Sign an ace pitcher (not one whose name starts with 'ace')? Very unlikely. Sign really good bullpen pitching? Yeah, right. Likely, he'll just sit in his hotel room and ponder what he'll be doing after the 2005 season.

ODERED
09-06-2004, 05:08 PM
Maybe you're referring to ownership here, but I'll just add the obligatory reminder that "leadership" just changed last year (in DanO and Miley).

And I fail to see how Lou or Torre could have the Reds over .500 with this staff. How do you (and others) figure that?

Because managers like Miley hold a team meeting once in a blue moon, and patting players on the butt. Managers like Piniella DEMAND that you perform, and when you don't, you will be sitting on the bench for a long, long time. Managers like Piniella have balls, and have a way of getting ownership, CEO's and accountants to make financial moves to better the ballclub. Managers like Miley are just "glad to have a job".

Reds4Life
09-06-2004, 05:14 PM
Torre was given players no doubt, but keeping the ego's inline is another major part of managing a club like that Yankees and it many ways is just as important as some of the on field decisions. Torre is a master at this, just like Phil Jackson is, and IMO that DOES make him a good manager. He and the Yankees are a perfect fit.

WVRedsFan
09-06-2004, 05:51 PM
Because managers like Miley hold a team meeting once in a blue moon, and patting players on the butt. Managers like Piniella DEMAND that you perform, and when you don't, you will be sitting on the bench for a long, long time. Managers like Piniella have balls, and have a way of getting ownership, CEO's and accountants to make financial moves to better the ballclub. Managers like Miley are just "glad to have a job".

Rosie and Traderumor,

Just for the record, I was referring to both :) . I see this whole organization from the front office to the field management to the pitching and hitting and to the PR folks as being really sub-bad. The talent on the field ranges from very good to horrible. And still we stand still and don't try to shake it up. We're losing 11-2 as I type and we give the manager and the whole staff a :thumbup: and say we are building. Where?

I know Torre is not a name manager like maybe a Lou or a (forgive me) Felipe Alou, but it's been proven that the greatest players in the world won't win unless they have some leadership. I think Joe provides that and I know Lou does. Yes, our bullpen is horrible, but a guy really interested would work with the front office to shed himself of these minor leaguers. A Joe Torre would have the leverage to demand some changes. They like Dave. He's just glad to be here (although inside, he wishes he had that power, I'd bet).

Unassisted
09-06-2004, 06:14 PM
We need to clarify something here. Is it that the Reds can't afford $2M/yr for Lou or is it that they won't part with the $2M/yr for him? I think we all know what the true answer is here.The budget is finite, ~$45M. Spend 2 million of that on a manager and that leaves less for players. I don't have a problem with the club not spending $2M on a manager. We don't need to haul out the tired argument that Lindner needs to open the wallet wider, either... we just need to accept that this is the budget ownership has set.

Reds4Life
09-06-2004, 06:37 PM
... we just need to accept that this is the budget ownership has set.

People need to accept the losing that goes with that payroll figure too and realize that until the ownership group spends some money this team is going nowhere.

Matt700wlw
09-06-2004, 06:43 PM
At one point, they did....Griffey and Larkin

Unfortunatel, the team still went nowhere.....so they figure, why do it again?

....And we will continue to go nowhere until they decide to spend money, and spend it wisely

ODERED
09-06-2004, 07:12 PM
At one point, they did....Griffey and Larkin

Unfortunatel, the team still went nowhere.....so they figure, why do it again?

....And we will continue to go nowhere until they decide to spend money, and spend it wisely

I can sort of understand the signing of Griffey....but, the guy by all accounts was "aging". His career in the big leagues started earlier than most, and logically that would mean his career would end at an earlier age than most (compared to the other stars in the game). If he hadn't broken down physically, he MIGHT have been killing the ball and this team would probably have a ~.500 record. Bowden might still be the GM of the Reds, and it would be a guarantee the organization would be all giddy inside had Junior performed as predicted. It didn't happen of course, and the damage has been done. In fact, the tsunami continues to make ripples in the organization.

The signing of Larkin to a rediculously expensive "loyalty contract" was just plain stupid. The Reds (don't know who it was that OK'd the contract) stepped completely away from thinking about the future of the club success-wise, and focused completely on avoiding a PR hit with that contract. I mean, come on, most of us would probably not even be thinking of Barry in a Reds uniform at this point, had he not re-signed with the Reds. He probably would have been hurt somewhere else, too, and be hitting .270 or so, and the whole world would be waiting for his impending retirement. It wasn't Barry that really wanted to stay with the Reds and finish his career here. It was all about Barry wanting big, big bucks and he basically blackmailed the team in public, resulting in a stupid contract that he IMO has not come close to earning. Worse, it helped to prevent the Reds from even acquiring a younger SS with real potential to take Barry's place. Sorry, Lopez is just a pretty good utility player IMO.

But, just like the Reds do with their blackmailing of the fans with the "you didn't come to the games and fill every seat, therefore we have no money to spend", they'll probably decide to not sign any noteworthy players "because the other ones we signed didn't do anything".

LINEDRIVER
09-06-2004, 07:23 PM
Im personally dissappointed that Gully has been asked to return. This pitching staff hasnt done squat in many years, and while I know that Gullett can only do just so much with the crap he has, I say that after all these years, it's time to hire a new pitching coach and wipe the slate clean.

I'm having problems with Gullett's apparent philosophy of not throwing enough pitches inside and Gullett's overall pitch calling philsophy. As Cory Lidle commented just before being traded, he finally realized that he wasnt throwing enough up and down and in and out, just wasnt mixing it up enough, the pitch calling was TOO predictable for the opposing batters.

traderumor
09-06-2004, 08:59 PM
Yea, why would be he considered a good manager, he's only got a a few world series rings and few 100+ win seasons in the last 5 or 6 years. :rolleyes:Rather than :rolleyes: , explain why your point proves he is a good manager? Is there something dramatically different that he started doing that turned him from a career .471 winning percentage, or do you just assume he is a good manager based on the success of his teams? In other words, Sparky went on to become very successful in another organization with many players that had been in that organization for years and never won, like Trammel and Whitaker, and many castoffs and veterans that had some major league success but were generally not a part of winning orgs, like Johnny Grubb and Darrell Evans. Torre, on the other hand, did not do that well in three different organizations, but has won a lot with the Yankees. That should tell one that Torre is very dependant on his talent for his success, as are most major league managers. The same could have been said of Sparky if he had not gone on to Detroit and had success building a championship ballclub there. But it became clear that he was also a very important ingredient in the mix both places. Same for Piniella. I'm not sure that's true of Torre.

traderumor
09-06-2004, 09:02 PM
Because managers like Miley hold a team meeting once in a blue moon, and patting players on the butt. Managers like Piniella DEMAND that you perform, and when you don't, you will be sitting on the bench for a long, long time. Managers like Piniella have balls, and have a way of getting ownership, CEO's and accountants to make financial moves to better the ballclub. Managers like Miley are just "glad to have a job".

Ok, three straight posts, ranting incoherently, this looks very familiar, like a poster named Eric Davis

Boss-Hog
09-06-2004, 09:05 PM
Ok, three straight posts, ranting incoherently, this looks very familiar, like a poster named Eric Davis
It's definitely not him.

SteelSD
09-06-2004, 09:40 PM
It's definitely not him.

Definitely not. But tremere never could spell "ridiculous".;)

Bruce Wayne signing off.

oneupper
09-06-2004, 09:52 PM
REDS in 2005 under Miley: 70-92

CougarQuest
09-06-2004, 10:16 PM
Don't you guys/gals remember waaay back in May and June when the Reds were doing good and everyone in here was debating about getting that option for next year on Miley? Then the news/sports media picked up on it. And Dan's response to all those questions from the news/sports media was that he wouldn't discuss any contracts until the end of the season.

While I was coming back from the lake, guess the topic on the radio? Why Dan O'Brien changed his mind and gave Miley his option year already when all season Dan said he wouldn't discuss it until after the season was over.

I don't mind it, it just seemed contradictory to his comments all year. Which brought to mind, does this open up contract talks with others like Larkin and Wilson.

Which was the other topic on the radio.

jmcclain19
09-06-2004, 10:21 PM
The 'negotiating' level of Miley's and the coaches contracts is probably somewhere between little and none. DanO tells them that their contracts will be renewed at x amount of dollars if they are interested. They say "yes" and "thank you" as the process for each man takes about 30 seconds.
Thank you - that's what I was trying to say earlier and you put it into better words.

This wasn't a negotiation. The club held the cards and they played them. Miley or Miley's rep didn't take part in it.

ODERED
09-06-2004, 10:37 PM
Definitely not. But tremere never could spell "ridiculous".;)

Bruce Wayne signing off.

Ah, Steel, where's the LOOOOVVVEEEEEE?

SteelSD
09-06-2004, 10:48 PM
Ah, Steel, where's the LOOOOVVVEEEEEE?

ODERED=tremere=NEILYNG

Not hard. And as for your claims of being a "new poster"? If you were new, you'd address me as "SteelSD". See, the abbreviated "Steel" is a term bourne of familiarity. You made the same mistake a couple days ago when you called KronoRed "Krono" in a thread.

Those little mistakes, coupled with your continued misspelling- "rediculous"- made it pretty easy to figure out.

4256 Hits
09-06-2004, 11:24 PM
Yeah, you don't always agree with his lineupes, but if we actually had a pitching staff this year, and went without all the injuries to key players, Miley's job wouldn't have looked so hard (or appearently, it's just too easy according to some people on this board).

All managers jobs are easy when the team is healthy! I sign of a good manager is he gives his team the best chance to win when there is injuries and by batting Castro 20% of the time doesn't not and never will give your team the best chance to win!

Plus there is a reason all the players like him is because he expects so little from them. He is just happy to be a MLB player and that is all he expects his players to be.

This to me is DanO taking the easy way out which appears to be his MO. All the media love Miley so it will make his life easier if the media are not gunning after him so he can keep his job as long as possibele. DanO is just happy to be a MLB GM. :angry: :dflynn: :help:

REDREAD
09-06-2004, 11:27 PM
But what happened to not talking about contracts until the season is over? Does this put Dan in a position to talk contract with Larkin and others?

I was thinking the same thing , Cougar.

I guess we can file that comment along with, "I have no intention of trading Lidle and/or Wilson".

In other words, when DanO actually gives some information out, it's more than likely false.

LINEDRIVER
09-07-2004, 12:30 AM
Why did Dan O'Brien change his mind and give Miley his option year when all season Dan said he wouldn't discuss it until after the season was over?

Maybe Uncle Carl changed his mind for him.

pedro
09-07-2004, 01:01 AM
i'm not thrilled w/ miley's handling of the pitchers but there is something to be made for orginizational consistency, especially after all of last years FO and Player movement. i think that the risk of further alienating the young players was too great to make a change as miley has not done an awful job. i think giving him the opportunity for a second year is the fair thing to do.

WVRedsFan
09-07-2004, 01:10 AM
i'm not thrilled w/ miley's handling of the pitchers but there is something to be made for orginizational consistency, especially after all of last years FO and Player movement. i think that the risk of further alienating the young players was too great to make a change as miley has not done an awful job. i think giving him the opportunity for a second year is the fair thing to do.


And that is true, of course. And maybe I'm being to ambitious about this whole thing. Miley is miles :) ahead of Boone, so we're at least better off than last year. And maybe we should get him some players and see what he can do. Nevertheless, I want to see some real moves this off season in the personnel department. No manager should have to put up with the TVP's and (name who you want) on a pitching staff. If I hope for one thing, it's that we go totally youth. No more retreads!

pedro
09-07-2004, 01:15 AM
i don't know how it works in baseball but in my dream world danO sits miley down for his yearly review and asks him to work on more intelligent usage of OBP in lineup construction and a little more situational savvy with the bullpen. then next year miley would be judged on his ability to improve.

Eric_Davis
09-07-2004, 03:47 AM
Congratulations, Dave Miley.

Good timing. He'll get all of September to view next year's potential roster.