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MWM
11-03-2004, 01:07 AM
74% of Ohio precincts have no reported and the gap has been narrowed. Bush's lead is now only 120,000 votes.

Don't go to bed folks.

Larkin Fan
11-03-2004, 01:08 AM
Franklin is also highly Democratic. I still think it goes down to the wire. I definitely wouldn't put Ohio in the Bush column just yet. It's going to wind up less than 1%.

I agree, MWM. It's going to be a close one.

RosieRed
11-03-2004, 01:08 AM
I feel about the same way following this election as I did the ALCS.

I'm right there with you.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 01:08 AM
Right now CBS News has Bush ahead 246-199(including Florida). Add in Ohio and its 266. All he would need from that list is Nevada, New Mexico, Hawaii, or New Hampshire, and one of those is easily attainable.

I was looking at ABC, CNN, and they were all giving a different total on electorial college.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:10 AM
I was looking at ABC, CNN, and they were all giving a different total on electorial college.

CBS had Colorado going to Bush, thats why ABC is different, havent checked CNN.

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:12 AM
I'm right there with you.

It's weird. I didn't think I would be this intesnse about this election for reasons I've stated multiple times on other threads. But I'm suprisingly finding myself feeling disappointed that it's looking like Bush might win (although I'm still not anywhere near convinced). The only real reason for this feeling is the economy. My mind keeps reflecting back onto the deficit. I'm going to be re-entering the job market in less than two years, and these deficits scare me. There needs to be a tax increase and that is the ONE THING Kerry might have been able to get done that I want to happen. If Bush wins, all I can do is hope Bush does what his father did and realize he has no choice but to go back on his tax cut policy.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 01:13 AM
CBS had Colorado going to Bush, thats why ABC is different, havent checked CNN.

I just looked again.

CNN 234
CBS 246
ABC 237

someone in that group is not reporting correctly.

Falls City Beer
11-03-2004, 01:13 AM
But where in the world is Kerry going to get that many "unanswered" votes? Cuyahoga's 60% in, Hamilton's going to go Bush. Franklin just doesn't have the population to make that big of a dent.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:40 AM
Fox News has called Ohio for Bush, he is now at 266 with a lead in New Mexico.

LvJ
11-03-2004, 01:40 AM
Fox gives Ohio to BUSH!!!

4 Mo Years. :thumbup:

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:40 AM
CNN just mentioned that Ohio has a lot of absentee and provisional ballots still out there that need to be counted. I don't know if they're enough to make a big enough dent, but you never know what can happen. One county that apparently hasn't reported yet, Cuyahoga, went to Gore by 160k votes. The current difference is 139k. I'm not suggesting this will put Ohio in Kerry's column, but all is not lost yet.

paulrichjr
11-03-2004, 01:41 AM
It's weird. I didn't think I would be this intesnse about this election for reasons I've stated multiple times on other threads. But I'm suprisingly finding myself feeling disappointed that it's looking like Bush might win (although I'm still not anywhere near convinced). The only real reason for this feeling is the economy. My mind keeps reflecting back onto the deficit. I'm going to be re-entering the job market in less than two years, and these deficits scare me. There needs to be a tax increase and that is the ONE THING Kerry might have been able to get done that I want to happen. If Bush wins, all I can do is hope Bush does what his father did and realize he has no choice but to go back on his tax cut policy.


To make you hopefully feel a little better.... deficits have been with us for years and the economy was fine. We are not going to have a crash in the economy due to the deficit. A terriorist attack is a different story.

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:42 AM
Fox gives Ohio to BUSH!!!

4 Mo Years. :thumbup:

Consider the source.

Erf_the_Red
11-03-2004, 01:43 AM
Fox has by far been the most careful in giving the nod tonight.

GIK
11-03-2004, 01:43 AM
83% in now in Ohio and Bush's lead hasn't shrunk...looks pretty much over.

LvJ
11-03-2004, 01:44 AM
Fox has by far been the most careful in giving the nod tonight.

I agree. I've watched them and MSNBC, and alittle of CNN for about 6+ hours now. They've been very careful, and very strong with their arguements when giving a state to either guy.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:44 AM
Fox has by far been the most careful in giving the nod tonight.

No kidding. They were the last to call Florida for Bush, long after CNN, ABC, and CBS called it.

This is a major reach by Fox News, but im not suprised. I thought when they called Florida last, they did it so they could brag about being fair and balanced.

GAC
11-03-2004, 01:45 AM
Fox has just projected Ohio for Bush by 138,000 votes.

They report that there is less then 25% of the vote left in Cuyahoga Co, and not enough of a Democratic reservoir to overcome the Bush lead. Especially while there is larger reservoir of Republican vote not yet tabulated in Hamilton Co and other areas of the state.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:45 AM
Ive been hearing Cincinnati is helping Bush counter the Cleveland votes :D

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:46 AM
To make you hopefully feel a little better.... deficits have been with us for years and the economy was fine. We are not going to have a crash in the economy due to the deficit. A terriorist attack is a different story.

Current levels of deficits are unprecendented. They are reckless and dangerous. I could post tons of data showing why it's different now than before. We've even been warned by the WTO, an organization historically dominated by the US, that our deficits are out of control. No way is it possible for our economy to remain strong with perpetual deficits like we are seeing right now.

Peruse through this website for a while.

http://www.concordcoalition.org

Marty and Joe
11-03-2004, 01:46 AM
Fox has 4 people on a board that must all agree before a state is called.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 01:50 AM
Fox has just projected Ohio for Bush by 138,000 votes.

They report that there is less then 25% of the vote left in Cuyahoga Co, and not enough of a Democratic reservoir to overcome the Bush lead. Especially while there is larger reservoir of Republican vote not yet tabulated in Hamilton Co and other areas of the state.

He still has to win New Mexico, where he has a slight lead or something........? the rest of the states are voting for Kerry at this time.

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:51 AM
He still has to win New Mexico, where he has a slight lead or something........? the rest of the states are voting for Kerry at this time.
You're forgetting Alaska. With Ohio and Alaska, that gives him 269. Plus, Nevada is only 3,000 votes apart right now with a small percentage reporting.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:51 AM
He can win Alaska(which he is all but projected) and force an electoral tie.

Marty and Joe
11-03-2004, 01:52 AM
New Mexico is leaning W's way with 79% of the vote recorded. (19000 vote lead).

GAC
11-03-2004, 01:53 AM
Looks like Bush is gonna take New Mexico also, to put him over the top.

Looks like the courts are gonna be busy in Ohio today. :lol:

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 01:54 AM
You're forgetting Alaska. With Ohio and Alaska, that gives him 269. Plus, Nevada is only 3,000 votes apart right now with a small percentage reporting.

Actually I did not have a clue where Alaska would fall so I omitted them.... ;)

paintmered
11-03-2004, 01:55 AM
cuyahoga county has 90% of their precincts reporting


Also, a tie in electoral votes is basically a victory for bush. There's no way the House will elect kerry with the margain the GOP has in there.

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:56 AM
86% reporting in Ohio and still a 103,000 lead for Bush.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:56 AM
Bush's lead is now 82,000 in Ohio. Look for the projection to be pulled by nights end.

GAC
11-03-2004, 01:57 AM
I think Bush is gonna get New Mexico, which would put him over the top.

The question now is...will Bush's lead shrink enough to justify a Democratic "contest"?

LvJ
11-03-2004, 01:57 AM
Iowa is now a dead heat as well.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:58 AM
Bush Wins per Drudge

http://www.drudgereport.com/

Marty and Joe
11-03-2004, 01:58 AM
Bush's lead is now 82,000 in Ohio. Look for the projection to be pulled by nights end.

101,000 with 87% reported.

LvJ
11-03-2004, 01:59 AM
I'm just so happy I don't report to work til 3:30 tomorrow. :)

GAC
11-03-2004, 01:59 AM
Bush's lead is now 82,000 in Ohio. Look for the projection to be pulled by nights end.

And that's coming from those remaining precincts in Cuyahoga Co. Which is expected. But will the lead grow once those heavily Repub precincts come in around Hamilton Co.?

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:59 AM
Bush's lead is now 82,000 in Ohio. Look for the projection to be pulled by nights end.

Wouldn't surprise me, but I just checked cnn.com and they have 87% reporting and a 101,000 lead.

Hey Novack, SHUT UP!!!!!! Moron!

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:00 AM
BTW, for you anti-fox people ... MSNBC also called Ohio for Bush. :RedinDC:

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:01 AM
62% for Bush 35% for Kerry in Alaska with 44% in.

And Nevada is very tight, but alot haven't reported in yet either.

Reds Fanatic
11-03-2004, 02:01 AM
NBC just called Ohio for Bush and Bush is up by about 20,000 votes in New Mexico so I think this is pretty much over.

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:01 AM
8:00am class is going to suck tomorrow morning.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 02:02 AM
What a race, I have never seen anything like this......

Stormy
11-03-2004, 02:02 AM
I believe Bush will still take Iowa, Nevada, New Mexico. And that will make it a pretty clear margin.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:03 AM
I've been bouncing around all night with several news media coverage. I think CNN's coverage is stale and boring.

I think Fox has done a very good job. Very professional IMO.

Stormy
11-03-2004, 02:05 AM
I've been bouncing around all night with several news media coverqage. I think CNN's coverage is stale and boring.

I think Fox has done a very good job. Very professional IMO.

I thought MSNBC's was the best. Fox was decentr overall, but Hume ought to be put out to pasture, as all he seems interested in is getting his beauty sleep (which in fairness, he might need). ;)

Now let's keep the lawyers out of this, and allow the democratic process to prevail without tarnish (unlike the unfortunate 2000 election).

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:05 AM
93% of Cuyahoga Co has reported in

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:08 AM
Dont know if this is true, but there is only 185 votes separating Bush from Kerry in Iowa.

Twill be interesting.

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 02:08 AM
In Iowa, Bush and Kerry are now separated by 17 votes.

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 02:09 AM
Bush just pulled ahead in Iowa- now up by 337.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:09 AM
I thought MSNBC's was the best. Fox was decentr overall, but Hume ought to be put out to pasture, as all he seems interested in is getting his beauty sleep (which in fairness, he might need). ;)

Yeah, I agree on Hume. But I've liked the various other political operatives there, and their coverage. I think they have been pretty objective and fair in their coverage on both sides.

According to Michael Barone.... even if they give Kerry a nice percentage of the 200,000 provisional votes, they don't see Kerry overcoming the Bush lead in Ohio. And there are still several counties with many precincts that are heavily Repub that have not been tabulated late also.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 02:10 AM
Somewhere in Ohio they reported that voters stood in line 13 hours, I think that is amazing.

Stormy
11-03-2004, 02:10 AM
93% of Cuyahoga Co has reported in

The districts which haven't reported yet are 5 HEAVY Republic districts.

There have been fantastic gains in the Senate as well, and I don't mean in just pure numbers, but in terms of some great personnel replacing guys who were past their prime. I like Obama too, as far as Democratic gains go (he and Ford are two fantastic reps for the opposing side).

Vitter, DeMint, Burr, Isakson, and very hopefully a great young Senate candidate in Thune (maybe the brightest of the bunch).

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:10 AM
I thought MSNBC's was the best. Fox was decentr overall, but Hume ought to be put out to pasture, as all he seems interested in is getting his beauty sleep (which in fairness, he might need). ;)

Now let's keep the lawyers out of this, and allow the democratic process to prevail without tarnish (unlike the unfortunate 2000 election).

It's hard to get better than Hume! But I'm also a fan of MSNBC's coverage, which includes the coverage of the last couple of months. They've done a great job, and since I'm a avid viewer of Scarborough Country, it's easy to watch Joe on After Hours and of course, gotta like Chris Matthews.

Stormy
11-03-2004, 02:11 AM
In Iowa, Bush and Kerry are now separated by 17 votes.

Most of the district which haven't reported yet have voted heavy Republican historically, and tonight... which is part of why I said I expected him to come back and win Iowa.

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:11 AM
Somewhere in Ohio they reported that voters stood in line 13 hours, I think that is amazing.

I stood in line for 0 seconds. (no line here after 5 pm) :eek:

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:11 AM
Some guy on MSNBC just made a great point. He mentioned that whenever a challenger has unseated an incumbent, it has always been an "intriuging personality". In other words, there was also something very unique and very interesting about the the candidate. You can't really say that about John Kerry.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:12 AM
Bush just pulled ahead in Iowa- now up by 337.

According to Osama, bye bye cornfields;).

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:14 AM
Some guy on MSNBC just made a great point. He mentioned that whenever a challenger has unseated an incumbent, it has always been an "intriuging personality". In other words, there was also something very unique and very interesting about the the candidate. You can't really say that about John Kerry.

I could see that in Clinton, no way with Kerry.

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:14 AM
CNN had Barack Obama on earlier tonight. I know he's still fairly new on the scene and hasn't been subject to much scrutiny yet, but the more I see this guy, the more I like him. I hope he ends up being the real thing.

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:17 AM
I was eating cake when Obama won. When his wife said "My Babies Daddy" I almost choked. :MandJ:

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 02:19 AM
I'm not saying one person will win in the Presidential Race yet, its still too early to call, but it looks to be a huge night for the GOP overall.

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:19 AM
I'm watching MSNBC right now at almost 1:20am and there's a lady STILL claiming that there are still thousands of people in line waiting to vote and she wouldn't cede it to Bush yet. I'm not sure why she thinks this, but she said it nonetheless.

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 02:20 AM
Vitter, DeMint, Burr, Isakson, and very hopefully a great young Senate candidate in Thune (maybe the brightest of the bunch).

Hopefully I'm wrong about Thune and he becomes a shinging star. I'm no Daschle fan, but I haven't been at all impressed by Thune at all. Maybe some of that comes from knowing a few of his supporters (some of the most inept human beings I've ever had the displeasure to meet). I dunno.

<Edit: I should note that I'm from SD, so please- if you're a Thune supporter- no offense intended. I'm talking about only those folks I've personally met here.>

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:21 AM
I'm watching MSNBC right now at almost 1:20am and there's a lady STILL claiming that there are still thousands of people in line waiting to vote and she wouldn't cede it to Bush yet. I'm not sure why she thinks this, but she said it nonetheless.

Was her name Susan something? I saw somebody like that on Fox News a couple of hours ago.

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 02:21 AM
I can't remember which station I was watching, flipping back and forth too much, but one commentator talked about how Obama lost his race for the House last go 'round because he would kowtow to the strong African-American machine in Chicago.

And that he won this time because he was able to go statewide. If that's the case, he seems like an excellent communicator, if he can build up a rep in the Senate he'll have huge future.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:22 AM
Wow! Tom Daschle is losing. But it still has a ways to go. I can't say I wouldn't feel sorry to see him go. :lol:

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 02:23 AM
And, as I typed that, Pennington County (South Dakota) just kicked Thune in the nuts.

50% of precincts reporting- 5,747 votes for Daschle. 23 for Thune.

<Edit:> GAH! Now they changed it and Thune's ahead by about 6,500 votes. Stupid cnn.com!

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:24 AM
84% of the precincts in in Mew Mexico and Bush up 52% to 47%, and Bush's lead is growing.

Stormy
11-03-2004, 02:24 AM
I'm watching MSNBC right now at almost 1:20am and there's a lady STILL claiming that there are still thousands of people in line waiting to vote and she wouldn't cede it to Bush yet. I'm not sure why she thinks this, but she said it nonetheless.

If you look at Ohio's still reporting districts, they are almost exclusively Republican districts. Particularly Districts 1 and 2 which went heavily Republican tonight. I'd expect Bush's lead to slightly grow, if anything... unless there is some serious unforeseen turn of events.

New Mexico looks like it's sealed, and I'm nearly positive will be Bush's as well, soon.

Steel: I've been impressed by Thune's articulation of his views, and was disappointed by his close loss in 2002. However, I see him fleetingly, so you are probably far more familiar with his attributes than I am. So, I'll defer to you on that one. ;)

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:25 AM
And, as I typed that, Pennington County (South Dakota) just kicked Thune in the nuts.

50% of precincts reporting- 5,747 votes for Daschle. 23 for Thune.

Isn't that where there is a reservation, with a large Native American vote?

Stormy
11-03-2004, 02:26 AM
And, as I typed that, Pennington County (South Dakota) just kicked Thune in the nuts.

50% of precincts reporting- 5,747 votes for Daschle. 23 for Thune.

<Edit:> GAH! Now they changed it and Thune's ahead by about 6,500 votes. Stupid cnn.com!

Funny, it happens everytime Daschle or Johnson look to be going down.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 02:26 AM
Wow! Tom Daschle is losing. But it still has a ways to go. I can't say I wouldn't feel sorry to see him go. :lol:

Me either, I can't stand Daschle....I bet he is really sweating and whining about now.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:27 AM
I bet Hillary Clinton is dancing a jig.

Well, until the lawsuits come;).

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 02:28 AM
Isn't that where there is a reservation, with a large Native American vote?

No. Lots of buffalo. As reparations to the large Native American population in the state, we give the buffalo one vote each.;)

No...seriously, that's where Rapid City is located. It's the only pseudo-populated area on the west side of the state.

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:29 AM
Ohio has been stuck at 90% for a long time now. Bush lead has increased slightly to 134k.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:29 AM
Me either, I can't stand Daschle....I bet he is really sweating and whining about now.

I watched him and Geraldine Ferraro on the news earlier today, and they were both screaming about Republican efforts a fraud and suppressing the vote. Yet when pressed by the commentator, they couldn't/wouldn't give any specific examples.

Ken Blackwell says that the provisional ballots in Ohio number about 140,000.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:29 AM
Bush is now up 5,000 in Iowa with 91 percent reporting.

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:30 AM
Kerry camp still thinks they can win Ohio it seems.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:30 AM
Reported...Kerry is disputing Ohio. His only hope is to pull it out in the provisional vote, and while it is not an impossibility, I find it highly unlikely.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:32 AM
Reported...Kerry is disputing Ohio.

Per Fox News, they claim 250,000 votes are still out there left to be counted and that could bode well for them.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:34 AM
Where is ever-smiling Democratic operative Susan Estrich? Forum rules prevent me from using the appropriate language to describe this woman, who earlier, and smuggly, said Ohio was in the bag for Kerry. :lol:

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:34 AM
Kerry will have to get ... what ... around 60% of the the votes that are left?

Stormy
11-03-2004, 02:34 AM
Per Fox News, they claim 250,000 votes are still out there left to be counted and that could bode well for them.

Yes, but from several districts which have mostly voted about 58-42 Republican tonight. Hard to fathom that they can make up a deficit by any normal means.

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:34 AM
90% of Cuyahoga County has reported. Other than that, the only Kerry leaning county is Athens, where OU is located. They've only had 40% reported, but their total votes are only about 14k so far, so I don't know how much they can gain there. Kerry does carry 64% in that county, but I don't think it will make much difference.

My guess is they are placing all their hopes in absentee and provisional votes. Apparently, there are still people in line to vote at 1:30 in the morning.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:35 AM
Where is ever-smiling Democratic operative Susan Estrich? Forum rules prevent me from using the appropriate language to describe this woman, who earlier, and smuggly, said Ohio was in the bag for Kerry. :lol:

Thats who I was asking MWM about earlier, thanks :thumbup:

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:35 AM
No. Lots of buffalo. As reparations to the large Native American population in the state, we give the buffalo one vote each.;)

No...seriously, that's where Rapid City is located. It's the only pseudo-populated area on the west side of the state.

So there is little chance of Daschle getting "buffaloed"? :allovrjr:

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:36 AM
Thats who I was asking MWM about earlier, thanks :thumbup:

That woman, with her "gravely voice" drives me nuts. I want to waste my TV whenever she is on. :lol:

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:38 AM
We should have had a election night chat in the chatroom. :lol:

I tried to go to sleep earlier, but just can't.

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 02:38 AM
BTW - C-Span has great coverage, sorry if this was mentioned earlier
Map
http://network.ap.org/dynamic/files/specials/election_night_2004/us_map_govsenhouse/index.html?SITE=CSPANELN&SECTION=POLITICS
Numbers
http://network.ap.org/dynamic/files/elections/2004/general/national/pres.html?SITE=CSPANELN&SECTION=POLITICS

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:39 AM
I tried to go to sleep earlier, but just can't.

That's exactly why I haven't gone to bed yet. I know I wouldn't be able to sleep.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:40 AM
BTW - C-Span has great coverage, sorry if this was mentioned earlier
Map
http://network.ap.org/dynamic/files/specials/election_night_2004/us_map_govsenhouse/index.html?SITE=CSPANELN&SECTION=POLITICS
Numbers
http://network.ap.org/dynamic/files/elections/2004/general/national/pres.html?SITE=CSPANELN&SECTION=POLITICS

Thanks :thumbup:

I see an awful lot of red on that map. The map looks pretty much the same from the 2000 election.

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:41 AM
:dflynn: Kerry Lawyers getting on planes heading to Ohio.

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 02:41 AM
So there is little chance of Daschle getting "buffaloed"? :allovrjr:

Nah. If Daschle loses, he has only himself to blame.

And it's not that I dislike John Thune. Could be a great legislator. It's just that the perception is that he was a Republican puppet last time out against Johnson. Got Bush's support, they spent millions of dollars on the guy to get him the name recognition he needed to go up against Daschle. And then Thune wanted nothing to do with Bush this campaign.

To his credit, Thune ran a smart campaign. Now, I didn't say "good" campaign, but smart. The "values" thing does play really well out here in limbo.

But I'm not sure how Thune will play for SD out in Washington.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:43 AM
:dflynn: Kerry Lawyers getting on planes heading to Ohio.

:dflynn: :dflynn: :angry: :angry: :rant: :rant: :censored: :censored:

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:44 AM
:dflynn: Kerry Lawyers getting on planes heading to Ohio.

Let'em come. Let them try to go head to head with Blackwell, who is 23 out of 23 in lawsuits. :lol:

Every vote should count. And IMO, when it's over in Ohio, Bush will still be the winner.

92% in, and Bush has a 102,000 lead.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:45 AM
I hope South Park pre-empts their new episode tomorrow and airs the kindergarten election instead.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 02:45 AM
:dflynn: Kerry Lawyers getting on planes heading to Ohio.

Someone better tell them that this isn't Florida. :devil:

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:47 AM
Let'em come. Let them try to go head to head with Blackwell, who is 23 out of 23 in lawsuits. :lol:

Every vote should count. And IMO, when it's over in Ohio, Bush will still be the winner.

92% in, and Bush has a 102,000 lead.

Every vote should count, and the lawyers have every right to try and spin whatever they shall spin, but in today's times, we need a clear cut winner with no whinney lawsuits. Heres hoping Bush gets a few more states and puts it to rest the right way.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:48 AM
They are saying that for Kerry to overcome Bush's lead in Ohio, it would have to win around 80% of the provisional vote. And that is improbable.

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 02:50 AM
They are saying that for Kerry to overcome Bush's lead in Ohio, it would have to win around 80% of the provisional vote. And that is improbable.

It's a huge statistical improbablility. But it gives some hope and thus that small glimmer will be trumpeted loudly.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 02:50 AM
They are saying that for Kerry to overcome Bush's lead in Ohio, it would have to win around 80% of the provisional vote. And that is improbable.

What makes them think that they will get any bigger % of the pie from the remaining votes than they have all night?

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:50 AM
So, whats the new slogan going to be? Last year was Sore Loserman and Bush Cheated(instead of Cheney), whats this years?:)

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:50 AM
Every vote should count, and the lawyers have every right to try and spin whatever they shall spin, but in today's times, we need a clear cut winner with no whinney lawsuits. Heres hoping Bush gets a few more states and puts it to rest the right way.

It looks like he'll get N.M., and possibly Iowa. Nevada is neck and neck, but too early in the tabulation to tell. But I think the rest will go Kerry IMO.

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:50 AM
They're saying provisional ballots are investigated individually and some take up to an hour. My wife filled out a provisional ballot for Michigan. They told here there's no way to know if it will end up counting or not. they gave her a number to call to follow up.

I hope this doesn't drag out and in the courts.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:51 AM
It looks like he'll get N.M., and possibly Iowa. Nevada is neck and neck, but too early in the tabulation to tell. But I think the rest will go Kerry IMO.

Most of Nevada's early voting was Clark County(Vegas). I think we all know how that went.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:52 AM
What makes them think that they will get any bigger % of the pie from the remaining votes than they have all night?

The Fox political analysts don't think Kerry will. They stated/presented the above to show that that scenario is very,very unlikely.

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 02:52 AM
CNN is now saying Ohio is now Too Close to Call

Can you say 2000 redux

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 02:53 AM
Every vote should count, and the lawyers have every right to try and spin whatever they shall spin, but in today's times, we need a clear cut winner with no whinney lawsuits. Heres hoping Bush gets a few more states and puts it to rest the right way.

Well, it appears that Iowa is going Bush's way. 7 EV there. New Mexico is another 5. Nevada's way too close to call as is Wisconsin. They represent 15 EV between them. For Bush to take it without worrying about Ohio, he'd need to win Wisconsin in addition to expected wins in Iowa (good call Stormy), and New Mexico. Nevada won't get it done.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:53 AM
Most of Nevada's early voting was Clark County(Vegas). I think we all know how that went.

The suburbs around there though, where all those evil "rich people" live, usually vote Repub, while the city itself goes Dem.

MWM
11-03-2004, 02:54 AM
It looks like he'll get N.M., and possibly Iowa. Nevada is neck and neck, but too early in the tabulation to tell. But I think the rest will go Kerry IMO.

Doesn't matter. If Bush doesn't win Ohio, he loses even if he wins N.M., Iowa, AND Nevada.

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:55 AM
CNN is now saying Ohio is now Too Close to Call

Can you say 2000 redux

You still watching CNN? :mhcky21:

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:56 AM
94% of Iowa in and Bush up 50% to 49%, and about a 15,000 vote lead. And the lead has been widening.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 02:57 AM
Im headed to the TV and laying down on the couch, hopefully I wake up to hear Iowa and/or New Mexico called.

Night all.:)

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 02:58 AM
And, in Nevada, candidate "None of These" (2,314 votes) is in a heated race for third with Ralph Nader (3,045 votes).

When asked if the candidate would challenge via the court system if he lost such a close battle for third, None of These replied, "Duh? Hey, I don't know what I want, but I sure as HELL don't want to lose to Ralph-freakin'-Nader."

GAC
11-03-2004, 02:58 AM
Doesn't matter. If Bush doesn't win Ohio, he loses even if he wins N.M., Iowa, AND Nevada.

Oh, I agree Mike. That is why Kerry's lawyers are heading to Ohio and not N.M., Iowa, or Nevada. :lol:

LvJ
11-03-2004, 02:58 AM
Later WV! I'm about to do the same...

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:00 AM
I can't imagine what the actual candidates feel like throughout all this. Can you imagine the emotional roller coaster John Kerry has gone through today?

GAC
11-03-2004, 03:03 AM
And what does this say about exit pols that earlier in the day said that Kerry was winning/leading pretty much every where? ;)

And it looks like the Repubs are on their way to strengthening their hold on both the House and the Senate.

GAC
11-03-2004, 03:04 AM
I can't imagine what the actual candidates feel like throughout all this. Can you imagine the emotional roller coaster John Kerry has gone through today?

Do you think Theresa will punch him on the mouth if he loses? :allovrjr:

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:06 AM
96% reporting in Ohio and the gap is now 122k.

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 03:06 AM
Ok. To win, Kerry would need to successfully challenge Ohio, and pick up an additional 39 Electoral votes.

He'll get 10 from Minnesota. 17 from Michigan. He'd need Wisconsin (10) and Hawaii (4) to put him over the top. That'd leave him at 272.

Let's give Nevada to Bush (5 EV) as well as Iowa (7) and New Mexico (5). That would put Bush (without Ohio) at 266 Electoral Votes.

That would also leave our heads spinning because the challenges wouldn't stop after Ohio if Kerry's people were successful there. It could literally take months (plural) to sort out.

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 03:07 AM
Drudge is convinced of the outcome.

GAC
11-03-2004, 03:07 AM
Bush's lead has grown in Ohio to 125,000

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 03:07 AM
I'm flipping back and forth ;)

Bush appears to have the overall popular vote, 52-47. Kerry appears to be fighting to the last man. Sadly, it doesn't look like will conceed tonight, despite the fact that so far there is no Oregon or Florida with a few thousand vote difference.

This could set a horrible precedent.

KYRedsFan
11-03-2004, 03:10 AM
Great thread. Looks like 4 more years. Interesting most will be Kerry's response. Ohio seems to be a done deal.

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:11 AM
Ok. To win, Kerry would need to successfully challenge Ohio, and pick up an additional 39 Electoral votes.

He'll get 10 from Minnesota. 17 from Michigan. He'd need Wisconsin (10) and Hawaii (4) to put him over the top. That'd leave him at 272.

Let's give Nevada to Bush (5 EV) as well as Iowa (7) and New Mexico (5). That would put Bush (without Ohio) at 266 Electoral Votes.

That would also leave our heads spinning because the challenges wouldn't stop after Ohio if Kerry's people were successful there. It could literally take months (plural) to sort out.

The funny thing about all this is, if somehow Ohio fell to Kerry and Bush lost with 266 votes, Bush losing New Hampshire, which he won in 2000, is what would have cost him the election.

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:14 AM
I just flipped over to Fox and they're talking about because of the exit polls from earlier today, Kerry started to prepare his victory speech. I know I've been hard on the guy, but I feel bad for him. As recently as 6 or 7 hours ago, he thought he WAS going to be the President of the United States. It's got to be devastating as it now looks like that won't happen.

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 03:15 AM
Ohio seems to be a done deal.You must not be watching CBS, with the discussion of the 20,000 lawyers that will descend upon Ohio tomorrow. I don't think the Dems are planning to let the fat lady sing tonight.

SteelSD
11-03-2004, 03:16 AM
The funny thing about all this is, if somehow Ohio fell to Kerry and Bush lost with 266 votes, Bush losing New Hampshire, which he won in 2000, is what would have cost him the election.

No doubt. But my biggest fear is that the challenges would continue. Bush would challenge the next closest state worth 4 or more electoral votes (Wisconsin would be a likely target) and back and forth and...blah.

They just need to divide each states Electoral College to the whole number by % of popular vote received by each candidate. God, would that be sooooo much easier.

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 03:17 AM
CBS just called Michigan for Kerry.

This is a handy page, btw.
http://www.latimes.com/news/specials/nation/la-networkcalls.story

KYRedsFan
11-03-2004, 03:18 AM
You must not be watching CBS, with the discussion of the 20,000 lawyers that will descend upon Ohio tomorrow. I don't think the Dems are planning to let the fat lady sing tonight.


It's gonna end up over 125,000 it looks like. Unless those lawyers get to add their vote, no way. But they'll try, and then blame Bush for being divisive. Count em all, the whole state, that's all I'll say. If I see 20,000 lawyers just in Cleveland, then I'll lose it.

DunnersGrl44
11-03-2004, 03:19 AM
I'm not gonna lie... I am a Bush fan, BUT i never thought he was gonna win, I wanted him to win, but i didn't think it was gonna happen. But I am glad that it is looking like Ohio is a done deal... and all he needs in NM.... the hell with the rest of the states... come on OHIO and NEW MEXICO! :)

GAC
11-03-2004, 03:22 AM
Kennedy is with Kerry right now at Beacon Hill. Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall in that room!

Ted: "Lets take a drive John" :eek:

JaxRed
11-03-2004, 03:23 AM
Kennedy is with Kerry right now at Beacon Hill. Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall in that room!

Ted: "Lets take a drive John" :eek:


Kerry - "You don't mind if I drive do you?"

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 03:24 AM
ABC just pointed out that if Ohio is contested and each candidate goes on to win the states they currently lead in, Ohio tips the scale in either direction.

Stormy
11-03-2004, 03:26 AM
You feel sorry for Kerry? A guy whose response to a 123,000 vote deficit in Ohio, is "mobilize the swarm of lawyers." It's a margin 8 times higher than the % required to trigger the recount. It's a clear demonstration that contesting the previous election had nothing to do with a legitimate grievance, or the red herrings of ballot problems etc... instead it had everything to do with suing when faced with losing, and trying to selectively recount until you can win. This is a significant margin in Ohio - Bush might as well start demanding legal recourse and recounts in every state he's losing by less than the margin in Ohio - and that's a ton of them. New Hampshire, Michigan, Minnesota et al...

Why not just letting lawyers determine the outcome of sporting events, while we are at it. Let's remember which side once again opted to introduce and pursue legal recourse over democratic process, once again - because in a few days they'll be spinning it that the Republicans were the ones who reverted to litigation. That's the revisionism we'll hear, despite a clear victory.

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:27 AM
Well, I'm going to try to go to bed. I was really hoping I would have a definitive answer by now, but it looks like it's not going to happen.

Stormy
11-03-2004, 03:27 AM
ABC just pointed out that if Ohio is contested and each candidate goes on to win the states they currently lead in, Ohio tips the scale in either direction.

What's the premise for contesting a state which is currently being decided by a margin 8 times greater than that which is required for a recount?

Reds/Flyers Fan
11-03-2004, 03:27 AM
Concede Kerry...don't put the country though this. It's over.

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:28 AM
They just announced John Edwards as the next VP of he United States.

Reds/Flyers Fan
11-03-2004, 03:29 AM
This is pathetic.

DunnersGrl44
11-03-2004, 03:29 AM
You feel sorry for Kerry? A guy whose response to a 123,000 vote deficit in Ohio, is "mobilize the swarm of lawyers." It's a margin 8 times higher than the % required to trigger the recount. It's a clear demonstration that contesting the previous election had nothing to do with a legitimate grievance, or the red herrings of ballot problems etc... instead it had everything to do with suing when faced with losing, and trying to selectively recount until you can win. This is a significant margin in Ohio - Bush might as well start demanding legal recourse and recounts in every state he's losing by less than the margin in Ohio - and that's a ton of them. New Hampshire, Michigan, Minnesota et al...

Why not just letting lawyers determine the outcome of sporting events, while we are at it. Let's remember which side once again opted to introduce and pursue legal recourse over democratic process, once again - because in a few days they'll be spinning it that the Republicans were the ones who reverted to litigation. That's the revisionism we'll hear, despite a clear victory.

I'm with ya on that one. There are always gonna be mistakes in elections, that is human error, but we can't have all the projected losers come out and demand recounts and things along those lines. That is rediculous. Let the final numbers be final. And leave it at that.

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:30 AM
If there is legitimate reasons to contest Ohio, I'm more than willing to listen.

But if they are going to go through all of this (that's still an if) just so they can throw another accusation of sabotage on the President to use over the next four years, I'll be really disappointed.

Reds/Flyers Fan
11-03-2004, 03:32 AM
Bush leads by 125,000+ in Ohio...more than Kerry leads in several other states, including Michigan.

Should Bush contest Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, etc?

Shame on Kerry.

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:34 AM
I feel compassion for the guy, absolutely. I feel for him because it wasn't that many hours ago that he had reason to believe he was just about to realize his life's dream and become President of the United States. A couple hours later it looks like he won't be realizing that dream. That's got to be tough to stomanch for anyone, no matter much I dislike the persona as a candidate.

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 03:36 AM
ABC is saying that there are 130K provisional ballots and an unknown number of oncounted absentee ballots which came in since Friday. The margin is currently 125K. It looks like a longshot. The media will love the equivalent of overtime.

MWM
11-03-2004, 03:36 AM
Let's be fair, though. He really hasn't done anything yet. All we can do is speculate as to what he MIGHT do. He hasn't conceded yet, but there really isn't reason why he needs to do it this minute. What's the downside to waiting a few more hours?

letsgojunior
11-03-2004, 04:51 AM
Let's be fair, though. He really hasn't done anything yet. All we can do is speculate as to what he MIGHT do. He hasn't conceded yet, but there really isn't reason why he needs to do it this minute. What's the downside to waiting a few more hours?

That I really do need my beauty sleep, that I have to be up in 3 hours, and that I have no idea where he's going to find 125,000+ votes from. ;)

WVRed
11-03-2004, 07:44 AM
99% of the precincts are reporting, and Bush is up in Iowa, New Mexico, and Nevada. No clue why these states havent been called for him yet.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 07:46 AM
Dan Ratherism of the night-

"If Kerry wins Ohio, he can still win the election. Of course, if a frog had side pockets, he'd carry a handgun."

cumberlandreds
11-03-2004, 08:47 AM
99% of the precincts are reporting, and Bush is up in Iowa, New Mexico, and Nevada. No clue why these states havent been called for him yet.

You are right they should be called for Bush. The networks just can't bring themselves to call the election for Bush. Why did they wait so long to call Florida when 97% of the vote was in and Bush ahead by nearly 400,000 votes?

RedFanAlways1966
11-03-2004, 08:56 AM
Very interesting reading this thread. I watched the election until the Miami-Toledo game came on. Then I mainly watched the game while switching to Fox News & CNN to see some numbers. The tension involved with watching the election results slowly trickle in is too much for me!

I fell asleep around 10:30 pm. I figured that there would not be a definitive answer all night. But when I awoke at 5:50 am this morning, I ran to the radio to hear something! I always fnd myself feeling sorry for non-winners as well. I guess it is just the human compassion thing that I try not to display (don't want to be a girlie man!).

Daschle not winning was a surprise to me. Not often a top-dog of a party in one house or the other does not get re-elected.

Lawyers... ugh! :angry:

traderumor
11-03-2004, 09:05 AM
It couldn't be a better morning. Republican gains all over, Pres. Bush wins convincingly, Daeschle booted (that was one of my favorite results of the night), voter turnout went the way of the Conservative...guess we can cancel Armegeddon for now :)

GAC
11-03-2004, 09:22 AM
I don't blame Kerry for not conceding as of yet. I look at his "contesting" Ohio in the same light/situation my Browns were in a couple weeks ago with Philadelphia... They were tied in OT, they had the ball at mid-field and it was 4th and 1. Everybody was screaming "You ain't got nothing to lose. Go for it!"

Unfortunately....they punted! :dflynn:

So I would do the same thing Kerry is doing..... wait till today, send people in to verify the numbers with the state officials, and then make a decision. But personally, I think he'll concede sometime today.

But the guy lost the popular vote by 4 Mil.

I just don't think it will go very far.

KYRedsFan
11-03-2004, 09:25 AM
What a great morning. GOP gains across the board, gets the popular vote. Let's get going on some big items for the second term, Iraq, Social security, are at the top of my list.

OldXOhio
11-03-2004, 09:42 AM
It couldn't be a better morning. Republican gains all over, Pres. Bush wins convincingly, Daeschle booted (that was one of my favorite results of the night), voter turnout went the way of the Conservative...guess we can cancel Armegeddon for now :)

Can I get an amen?

redsrule2500
11-03-2004, 09:53 AM
Excellent night last night! :)

I find it funny democrats were thinking they would have strong turnout, and the MTV rock the vote was wanting to make young people vote democrat - but really no more young people voted this time than last time :D

Reds4Life
11-03-2004, 09:54 AM
I'm waiting for all the democrats to say Bush stole the election again. It's coming........just wait.

zombie-a-go-go
11-03-2004, 09:58 AM
I'm waiting for all the democrats to say Bush stole the election again. It's coming........just wait.

Why do you think that? It's pretty obvious that Bush won. He got the electoral and the popular this time. No contest. Kerry's done.

Reds4Life
11-03-2004, 10:02 AM
Why do you think that? It's pretty obvious that Bush won. He got the electoral and the popular this time. No contest. Kerry's done.

It's a symptom of the pure hatred many in the Democratic party feel for Bush. He could have won by 10 million votes in the popular vote and gotten 450 E. college votes and some would still claim he stole the election.

Want a good laugh? Read some of the garbage on this site. www.democraticunderground.com

zombie-a-go-go
11-03-2004, 10:19 AM
I don't know what's uglier - the Democrats who are throwing a hissy fit because they think they lost, or the Republicans who are gloating like spoiled brats because they think they won.

I can't remember this nation being more fragmented than it is right now. Why hatred? These are your countrymen, people. Remember United We Stand, Divided We Fall? We're leading this country down the road to self-destruction, and not because Bush remains in office, but because 'We the People' hate each other. Other Nations are disgusted with us. The terrorists are laughing at us. And we can't get beyond our self-definition of ourselves by political party long enough to right the proverbial ship.

You shouldn't blindly fall into line bwhind your leader if you think he's wrong - you should always question and work for change. But you've got to take hate out of it. Hate has to go.

There's a real "North vs. South" sentiment bubbling just beneath the surface of the country, and that worries me. We are a country not only at war with the terrorists, but at war with ourselves as well. No good can come of this.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 10:29 AM
You are right they should be called for Bush. The networks just can't bring themselves to call the election for Bush. Why did they wait so long to call Florida when 97% of the vote was in and Bush ahead by nearly 400,000 votes?

Everybody except Fox News called Florida fairly early. I would think if anybody would have called those states, it would be Fox.

On a side note, AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA;)

Chip R
11-03-2004, 10:30 AM
Everybody except Fox News called Florida fairly early. I would think if anybody would have called those states, it would be Fox.

Stupid liberal Fox. ;)

zombie-a-go-go
11-03-2004, 10:31 AM
On a lighter note, I was watching the returns on CBS, and Dan Rather's little euphemisms gave me the giggles all night long. "Hotter than the Devil's anvil" and "don't taunt a gator 'til you've crossed the creek" were my personal favorites. :)

Reds4Life
11-03-2004, 10:33 AM
On a lighter note, I was watching the returns on CBS, and Dan Rather's little euphemisms gave me the giggles all night long. "Hotter than the Devil's anvil" and "don't taunt a gator 'til you've crossed the creek" were my personal favorites. :)

And the 11tybillion times he said "Kerry can still win the election...." ;)

WVRed
11-03-2004, 10:35 AM
I don't know what's uglier - the Democrats who are throwing a hissy fit because they think they lost, or the Republicans who are gloating like spoiled brats because they think they won.

Would it be possible to start a Republican Gloatfest thread? I would sure love to let out years of vent up frustration and laugh at Democrats, not with them.:)

I saw Robert Redford say he was moving to Ireland if Bush won. I wonder if he needs help?

BTW, I am kidding about the gloatfest, sort of;). I just want to make fun of the likes of Robert Redford and Michael Moore.

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 10:36 AM
And the 11tybillion times he said "Kerry can still win the election...." ;)The news media loves the overtime aspect of this. More air time for the news division, more viewers for the cable news outlets.

zombie-a-go-go
11-03-2004, 10:47 AM
Would it be possible to start a Republican Gloatfest thread? I would sure love to let out years of vent up frustration and laugh at Democrats, not with them.:)

I saw Robert Redford say he was moving to Ireland if Bush won. I wonder if he needs help?

BTW, I am kidding about the gloatfest, sort of;). I just want to make fun of the likes of Robert Redford and Michael Moore.

See, I don't find this amusing at all. These are the kind of comments that will anger some of the more left-leaning people on this board, and then comes the sniping and arguing, and when the dust clears everyone's just angrier at their 'enemies.'

Of course, "it's just a joke." Right. Well, jokes still sting.

Things are just going to keep getting worse in this country until we can move past the Red/Blue Divide. Maybe we can look at our opponents' views analytically and reasonably, as opposed to getting angry because they don't agree with us. Maybe we might even find some common ground.

Or maybe we'll just keep on fighting with and hating each other. Why anyone would want to do that, I don't know. I honestly don't.

GAC
11-03-2004, 10:56 AM
So Pat Robertson was right! :allovrjr:

letsgojunior
11-03-2004, 11:01 AM
I don't know what's uglier - the Democrats who are throwing a hissy fit because they think they lost, or the Republicans who are gloating like spoiled brats because they think they won.

I can't remember this nation being more fragmented than it is right now. Why hatred? These are your countrymen, people. Remember United We Stand, Divided We Fall? We're leading this country down the road to self-destruction, and not because Bush remains in office, but because 'We the People' hate each other. Other Nations are disgusted with us. The terrorists are laughing at us. And we can't get beyond our self-definition of ourselves by political party long enough to right the proverbial ship.

You shouldn't blindly fall into line bwhind your leader if you think he's wrong - you should always question and work for change. But you've got to take hate out of it. Hate has to go.

There's a real "North vs. South" sentiment bubbling just beneath the surface of the country, and that worries me. We are a country not only at war with the terrorists, but at war with ourselves as well. No good can come of this.

:clap:

WVRed
11-03-2004, 11:04 AM
This was an interesting exit poll I saw on the Today Show earlier.

There were more people who voted because of moral issues than the economy. Im still looking for it, ill post it if I can find it.

Especially in Ohio, you have to think the marriage amendment turned out the Bush vote.

GAC
11-03-2004, 11:14 AM
I don't know what's uglier - the Democrats who are throwing a hissy fit because they think they lost, or the Republicans who are gloating like spoiled brats because they think they won.

I can't remember this nation being more fragmented than it is right now. Why hatred? These are your countrymen, people. Remember United We Stand, Divided We Fall? We're leading this country down the road to self-destruction, and not because Bush remains in office, but because 'We the People' hate each other. Other Nations are disgusted with us. The terrorists are laughing at us. And we can't get beyond our self-definition of ourselves by political party long enough to right the proverbial ship.

You shouldn't blindly fall into line bwhind your leader if you think he's wrong - you should always question and work for change. But you've got to take hate out of it. Hate has to go.

There's a real "North vs. South" sentiment bubbling just beneath the surface of the country, and that worries me. We are a country not only at war with the terrorists, but at war with ourselves as well. No good can come of this.

I don't think we hate each other. At least I don't hate those whom I disagree with ideologically on here. And I have not gloated anywhere on this thread. Unless you consider the Pat Robertson humor gloating?

But I also heard several of my liberal friends on here the other day say they were ready to come on here and gloat WHEN Kerry won. ;)

But you are right that there are huge divisions in this country, and it began in Washington with our politicians, and has spread like a "disease" over the last couple of decades to their respective constituencies. And there is such vast ideological differences in this country that I don't see any "healing" in the near future.

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 11:18 AM
Especially in Ohio, you have to think the marriage amendment turned out the Bush vote.I think that's exactly why it was on the ballot for this election. There was no particular urgency to the gay marriage issue otherwise. Give credit where credit is due—to Karl Rove

letsgojunior
11-03-2004, 11:26 AM
CNN is reporting that the entire thing may be decided by 2 pm today, as there may not even be enough provisional ballots to make up the deficit.

I hope that does happen, as the democratic process doesn't need to be sullied anymore, and we certainly don't need another 37 day recount.

And I really like what Zombie said before - all of this gloating/sore losing is really just petty at this point to be honest. We've become so wrapped up in red and blue, republican and democrat, that I think we're missing the point completely. Our country is not in the best shape nowadays - the economy is bad, we're at war, constantly under threat of attacks by terrorists. Instead of actually working together towards fixing these goals, all we seem to do nowadays is yell and fight with each other (when we're likely not that far apart on the issue at hand). One of my friends told me yesterday that he thought that the strength of this country lies with the people, not with the president - and I agree with him.

I think we've got to stop acting like the other side is the enemy and start realizing that we have some very serious problems - and that the only way to fix them is to work together.

Please excuse me if that didn't make any sense - I got about 3 hours of sleep.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 11:26 AM
I don't think we hate each other. At least I don't hate those whom I disagree with ideologically on here. And I have not gloated anywhere on this thread. Unless you consider the Pat Robertson humor gloating?

But I also heard several of my liberal friends on here the other day say they were ready to come on here and gloat WHEN Kerry won. ;)

But you are right that there are huge divisions in this country, and it began in Washington with our politicians, and has spread like a "disease" over the last couple of decades to their respective constituencies. And there is such vast ideological differences in this country that I don't see any "healing" in the near future.

I dont hate anybody on here, even those who I strongly disagree with. I do think we should still have a gloatfest;) for at least one day. The Dems can start up a pity party thread too:).(Even though I think we will ultimately have both, just not officially named)

What amazes me is that with all the money, all the press, all the lies, all Michael Moore tried to do to bring down our commander in chief, all the attempts to get the kids out to vote for Kerry, and what did they do?

THEY DID NOTHING. The 18-24 year old the Dems tried to target stayed home on election day and played their Playstation 2's.

savafan
11-03-2004, 11:34 AM
Just saw on Drudge that Bush has broken the all-time popular vote total, surpassing Reagan.

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 11:35 AM
Don't gloat folks. Seriously.

The election is over. Now its time to have a little more civility. Hopefully Kerry realizes the mathmatical impossibility of overtaking Bush in Ohio and conceeds. Then we can move on.

But don't gloat. Put yourself in the reverse position. Would you want someone to kick you while you're down?

So I'd just mute the victory dance for a while. Don't forget, those same people you're kicking are still your friends and neighbors and fellow Reds fans.

GAC
11-03-2004, 11:49 AM
I think that's exactly why it was on the ballot for this election. There was no particular urgency to the gay marriage issue otherwise. Give credit where credit is due—to Karl Rove

I don't give Rove that much credit, or the authority, to have this initiative put on so many state ballots. It had to start as a "grassroots" effort in each state, and enough signatures had to be garnered, to even get it on the ballot.

Rove is not that powerful and influential IMO.

Why did so many states start this drive, and put forth the effort to get it on state ballots to amend their respective constitutions?

How about activist judges in MA, CA, and other places, who ignored and superceded state laws on the books, to force the agenda? That is not their job. And IMO, it raised people awareness and "fear" over this issue.

So I place alot of the blame as to what happened on them, more then a guy like Rove.

But this issue was bound to come to a head at some point anyway in this nation. It could not be avoided.

westofyou
11-03-2004, 12:00 PM
Nothing sadder than exhibiting "fear" over gay marriage.

creek14
11-03-2004, 12:03 PM
Nothing sadder than exhibiting "fear" over gay marriage.
Amen.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 12:05 PM
ABC News has announced that Kerry will concede the election at 1:00.

MWM
11-03-2004, 12:06 PM
It's a symptom of the pure hatred many in the Democratic party feel for Bush. He could have won by 10 million votes in the popular vote and gotten 450 E. college votes and some would still claim he stole the election.

Seems like a baseless accusation not founded in fact whatsoever. There's no evidence of this and I just don't see it happening.

Erf_the_Red
11-03-2004, 12:08 PM
It was just reported that Kerry just called the White House to concede

letsgojunior
11-03-2004, 12:08 PM
Come on guys - WE'RE BETTER THAN THIS.

Chip R
11-03-2004, 12:10 PM
It was just reported that Kerry just called the White House to concede
I wonder if he'll call collect? ;)

MWM
11-03-2004, 12:11 PM
Nice posts, zombie. I'm with you.

traderumor
11-03-2004, 12:13 PM
Where's the gloating? WVRed was being humorous and others seem to simply be glad that their gov't will be contolled by folks who likely stand for the things they hold dear. I hope my post didn't come off as gloating, because it really was just to express my gladness that the Conservative influence gained ground nationally, which I believe is a good thing. If I did sound like I was gloating, my apologies, that wasn't the intent.

Although, in all honesty, there may be a tinge of gloat in Daschle's loss :devil:

creek14
11-03-2004, 12:14 PM
On a lighter note, I was watching the returns on CBS, and Dan Rather's little euphemisms gave me the giggles all night long. "Hotter than the Devil's anvil" and "don't taunt a gator 'til you've crossed the creek" were my personal favorites. :)
Guess even Dan Rather knows, you should never cross creek. :allovrjr:

MWM
11-03-2004, 12:17 PM
It was unbelievably somber on campus this morning. The first thing I heard today when I walked into the building was somone saying to me, "I hate your f'ing state." To use a sports analogy, the mood was probably similar to the moos in the Yankee dugout after game 7 of the ALCS.

I heard lots of "this is a sad day for America" and one person even sounded somewhat serious about leaving the country.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 12:20 PM
I posted earlier that I dont "hate" anybody on this board. If I wanted to vent out frustrations at anybody, it would be the celebrities. After all, there is nothing wrong with making fun of celebrities, right?;)

RANDY IN INDY
11-03-2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by WVRed:

THEY DID NOTHING. The 18-24 year old the Dems tried to target stayed home on election day and played their Playstation 2's.

I find it amusing that the 18-24 year old crowd is always considered in the Democrat fold. I hope that there are maybe a lot of young Republicans who voted their conviction in big numbers.

I'm real pleased that Bush has "seemingly" won the election with the report of Kerry's call to concede. I respect John Kerry a lot, if this is the case, for not dragging this thing into the courts and making another spectacle out of the election process. That shows a lot of class, and I would have expected the same from President Bush.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the Republicans on the board being happy and celebrating the victory, just as there would be nothing wrong if Kerry had won and the Dem's on the board celebrated a victory. I hardly think that the Dem's among us would not have done just that. Four more years, and I'm not unhappy about it. Congratulations to President Bush, and the Republican party for a hard fought victory in both the Presidential election and the Senate and the House!
:thumbup: :gac:

traderumor
11-03-2004, 12:22 PM
It was unbelievably somber on campus this morning. The first thing I heard today when I walked into the building was somone saying to me, "I hate your f'ing state." To use a sports analogy, the mood was probably similar to the moos in the Yankee dugout after game 7 of the ALCS.

I heard lots of "this is a sad day for America" and one person even sounded somewhat serious about leaving the country.Or after a loss to the Buckeyes :)

M2
11-03-2004, 12:22 PM
I still don't understand why Kerry didn't concede last night. Simple logic would tell you you're not going to make up a 140,000-vote difference in Ohio based on provisional ballots.

letsgojunior
11-03-2004, 12:23 PM
Congrats to all the Bush supporters on here, and my sympathies to all the Kerry supporters. I'm hoping we all have the character to move forward from this without a lot of fighting and vitrol.

Congrats to Bush, Cheney, and all of his campaign workers.

MWM
11-03-2004, 12:23 PM
One overall comment I have I hope isn't offensive to Kerry supporters, but I think this election was less an indication of support for President Bush as much as it was an indication of Kerry not being a very good candidate. If they would have had a Clinton type of candidate, I really believe he would have ran away with it.

I think M2 has proven prophetic about his comments on John Kerry during the primaries. I've looked for his post, but the non-BB board doesn't go back far enough. He talked about why he thought Kerry wouldn't be able to win a national election and he based it on his experience interviewing and covering John Kerry in the past.

Spring~Fields
11-03-2004, 12:24 PM
I dont hate anybody on here, even those who I strongly disagree with.

I don't either,

I have actually found those that I have crossed with in the past (baseball side) to be the most interesting and enlightening reads during this whole political process, I have been very impressed with their intelligent discerning thoughts and insights. They were such interesting reads that I was motivated to turn to this site each day to see what they had to add and was never disappointed, they, I found are very sharp and bright people. :clap:

RANDY IN INDY
11-03-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by MWM:

I heard lots of "this is a sad day for America" and one person even sounded somewhat serious about leaving the country.

That's a lot of what's wrong. Regardless of who was elected, this is still the greatest country in the world. If that is the sentiment of some, I say adios.

Chip R
11-03-2004, 12:28 PM
I still don't understand why Kerry didn't concede last night. Simple logic would tell you you're not going to make up a 140,000-vote difference in Ohio based on provisional ballots.
Why should it matter when he concedes? It's not like Republicans are gonna say, "Oh, what a great statesman he is." if he conceded last night.

919191
11-03-2004, 12:28 PM
Oops- this was mentioned in the other thread- sorry...delete or merge this if you see fit.



President Bush won a second term in office on Wednesday after a fiercely fought U.S. presidential election.

advertisement

NBC and the Associated Press reported that Sen. John Kerry called the president to concede the election.

Earlier, Kerry was reported to be weighing options, with running mate Sen. John Edwards counseling Kerry to fight on until all of Ohio's votes were counted — which might not happen for almost two weeks.

Yet, it wasn't clear whether the Kerry campaign was willing to hold out for weeks. On Wednesday morning, his top advisers met to discuss whether to fight on or concede. The aides planned at least one other session before taking their recommendation to the senator, according to several officials involved in the deliberations.

The Kerry campaign is "still examining" the results, spokesman David Wade said.

One senior Democrat familiar with the discussions said Edwards, a trial lawyer, wanted to make sure all options were explored and that Democrats pursued them as thoroughly as Republicans would if the positions were reversed.

Kerry’s campaign planned a statement by midday, his advisers said. Two of them, speaking on condition of anonymity, said concession seemed simply a matter of time after one last look for uncounted ballots that might close the 136,000-vote advantage Bush held in Ohio.

Card claims victory
Earlier, White House chief of staff Andrew Card showed up unexpectedly at a gathering of Bush supporters in Washington shortly before 6 a.m. ET to declare “the president of the United States has won the state of Ohio. He said the numbers added up to a "convincing Electoral College victory.”

MSNBC COMPLETE ELECTION COVERAGE
• INTERACTIVE MAP: You allocate the electoral votes
• MAKING YOUR VOTE COUNT: Track any voting problems
• ELECTION TICKTOCK: Blogging the vote, minute by minute
• SLIDESHOW: Election Day around the country
• SLIDESHOW: See and hear what the candidates said today
• VIDEO: Top election videos of the day
• DEMOCRACY PLAZA: Celebrating democracy
• FULL COVERAGE


Unlike the 2000 election, Bush carried the popular vote. With 98 percent of precincts reporting nationwide, the president was polling 51 percent to Kerry’s 48 percent.

Card added that Bush would make a statement later Wednesday. The president delayed a victory speech to “give Senator Kerry the respect of more time to reflect on the results of this election,” he said.

That was preceded by a statement from Edwards, who asserted that the Kerry campaign was conceding nothing. “We will fight for every vote,” he told cheering supporters in Boston. “We’ve waited four years for this victory. We can wait one more night.”

creek14
11-03-2004, 12:30 PM
I still don't understand why Kerry didn't concede last night. Simple logic would tell you you're not going to make up a 140,000-vote difference in Ohio based on provisional ballots.
I don't blame him. CBS and CNN still won't give Ohio to Bush. Many times things become clearer with the light of day. I would imagne that was the case with the Kerry camp.

MWM
11-03-2004, 12:40 PM
The non-baseball forum has kept all threads since this site went up.

I haven't been able to find a thread from January of 2004. I must not be looking in the right place.

DunnersGrl44
11-03-2004, 12:46 PM
Bush Rocks!

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 12:48 PM
I still don't understand why Kerry didn't concede last night. Simple logic would tell you you're not going to make up a 140,000-vote difference in Ohio based on provisional ballots.He was probably afraid of having to retract his concession like Gore in 2000. Imagine the hooting that would have resulted from that "flip-flop."

Boss-Hog
11-03-2004, 12:50 PM
I haven't been able to find a thread from January of 2004. I must not be looking in the right place.
Is this what you were looking for?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26623

GAC
11-03-2004, 12:50 PM
Nothing sadder than exhibiting "fear" over gay marriage.

That's your opinion and I respect that. Respect the fact that alot of people within our society, and not simply religious people either, see it differently.

westofyou
11-03-2004, 12:54 PM
That's your opinion and I respect that. Respect the fact that alot of people within our society, and not simply religious people either, see it differently.

It's the "fear" factor that stymies me.

Fear of other peoples ability to commit and love each other is the height of irony IMO.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 12:56 PM
Bush's votes in 2004-58,527,956
Bush's votes in 2000-50,456,169

I guess 8 million more people think Bush is doing something right. I honestly think that Hollywood trying to influence the election came back to bite them in the rear.

MWM
11-03-2004, 12:57 PM
Is this what you were looking for?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26623

Actually, it's not. It was a thread started by M2 around the time of the Iowa caucus. I think the title was something like "Kerry just good enough to lose."

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 12:57 PM
I find it amusing that the 18-24 year old crowd is always considered in the Democrat fold. I hope that there are maybe a lot of young Republicans who voted their conviction in big numbers.It's a quantifiable assumption in Ohio, Randy. I saw on one of the nets last night that new voters under 30 in Ohio were exit-polled as voting 60-40 for Kerry. Maybe that goes the opposite way in your state and mine. You are correct that the 40 percent figure still represents a lot of people, but the young tended to lean left. It's dangerous to assume that everyone in your corner of the world is a representative slice of the country as a whole.

max venable
11-03-2004, 12:58 PM
As a Bush supporter, I just want to offer kudos to John Kerry for conceding. I'm not gloating here...I really respect that Kerry is not going to let this continue on and on. My respect level for JK just went up a lot.

Thank you John Kerry...now let's all have an attitude like that and unite as Americans!

DunnersGrl44
11-03-2004, 01:00 PM
Bush's votes in 2004-58,527,956
Bush's votes in 2000-50,456,169

I guess 8 million more people think Bush is doing something right. I honestly think that Hollywood trying to influence the election came back to bite them in the rear.

I'm with you on that one. P. Ditty's "Vote or Die" which actually means "Vote Kerry or Die" really didn't do any good and I hope he sits back and thinks about that. I'm glad the youth of America didn't buy into MTV and Ditty's "brainwashing". Not only did Kerry not win, there weren't that many new voters either. Sorry Ditty.... stick to your music :rolleyes:

TeamCasey
11-03-2004, 01:01 PM
What is a more appropriate voting age for you guys?

Seems to me that if you can fight in a war, you should be able to vote.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:03 PM
This makes me glad John Edwards wasnt elected. I saw an article where he was trying to convince Kerry to fight it out.

Then again, Kerry really has nothing to lose. Edwards does.

Boss-Hog
11-03-2004, 01:03 PM
Actually, it's not. It was a thread started by M2 around the time of the Iowa caucus. I think the title was something like "Kerry just good enough to lose."
Here it is, I believe.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19707 (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19707s)

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:13 PM
What is a more appropriate voting age for you guys?

Seems to me that if you can fight in a war, you should be able to vote.

I think if you are over 18 and able and willing to take the time and study the issues without being influenced by somebody, you should be able to vote, regardless of who you vote for. The "Please Dont Vote" link I posted had some truth to it.

21 is a more logical age, but if you are going to call 18 year olds to go into Iraq or Afghanistan, they should be allowed to vote.

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:15 PM
I hope M2 doesn't mind me posting this, but I think he was dead on clear back in January and had a lot of foresight in what he was saying.



Let me relate a quick story of my own. In that 1996 Kerry-Weld race, I was part of an editorial board that interviewed both candidates for endorsement purposes. Kerry's interview was painful. He didn't provide a single direct answer over the course of a 90-minute discussion. When asked for specifics, he'd heap on more generalizations. When asked about his many flip-flops, he couldn't provide an ounce of clarity. And aloof doesn't begin to describe the man's manner. He was unable to connect with anything other than the blather coming out of his mouth. In contrast, Weld was personable, forthright and direct.

Every single person on that editorial board liked Weld better and believed he was the superior candidate. Yet there was just one problem. This is Massachusetts and folks around here loath the national Republican party. They'll vote for Republican governors as a check against a Democratic legislature, which generally runs the state, yet no way did anyone want any part of a Senator who'd be falling in line with Trent Lott and Newt Gingrich. The one thing Weld wouldn't do was draw a clear line as to when he'd tell his national party to get lost (New England has a number of Republican senators and most have made a habit of doing just that). Over the years, I've talked with people who sat in similar interviews with Kerry and Weld and faced a similar dilemma. Ultimately Weld's refusal to break ranks cost him a slew of endorsements. Ironically, it was his own party that screwed him in the end when he couldn't get a hearing scheduled after Clinton appointed him ambassador to Mexico. See what loyalty will get you in politics?

Anyway, for my paper I had the unpleasant task of writing the editorial endorsement. It was a hot potato and it wound up in my lap. The gist of what I wrote was that we were fairly disappointed in Kerry, but he could at least be counted on to tow the party line on key social issues because it would botch all chances of him seeking higher office if he didn't. Kerry's campaign, in a fitting display of disconnectedness, actually copied the endorsement and passed it around at rallies and as part of its press packet.

His office is notoriously bad on things like constituent services and rarely lends more than token support to other Democrats seeking office (in other words, he's got a reputation as a bad party guy).

I know the Dems are trying to have a love affair with the guy, but I can tell you right now he's every bit as bad a candidate as Mike Dukakis was in 1988.

If you're a Bush backer, you should be overjoyed that Kerry's run out front in the Democratic race.


And I'm among the more liberal posters on this board. So I don't need a primer on what's wrong with Bush.

My complaint about Kerry isn't that he's a snob. It's that he's evasive, non-committal and disconnected. If you look at his track record, other than sitting on various committees, he's a fairly undistinguished legislator. He certainly hasn't risked his political capital to champion many causes in his career. That he may be no more evasive than Bush isn't a reason to vote for him.

And people tend to like him less the more they get to know him. I'm not alone in this and it's not just the media. I covered the state Democratic convention two years after Kerry beat Weld, a race where people busted their tails to help Kerry win, and, in a year when the governorship was there for the taking, Kerry didn't give 'em much more than a drive-by. The general reaction from party members? "What do you expect from Kerry? There's nothing in it for him."

If Kerry salts this nomination away by the early March, we'll be treated to eight months of watching a candidate disintegrate. He's going to make it hard for lifelong Democrats to pull his lever let alone independents.

I'm just giving folks a warning. If you really want someone to beat Bush in November, John Kerry isn't the person to do it.

I don't think he's a bad guy per se so much as a typical, self-interested politician. He's a fine campaigner and a successful political animal, but I've never met anyone, not one person, who expressed confidence that things would swing their way because John Kerry was on their side. He's as wishy-washy as they come, a technocrat of the first order.

The Democrats may be on the verge of nominating an empty suit. No one loves this guy.

RedsBaron
11-03-2004, 01:15 PM
I don't blame him. CBS and CNN still won't give Ohio to Bush. Many times things become clearer with the light of day. I would imagne that was the case with the Kerry camp.
I believe that Kerry has shown some class by conceding at this point. Putting the country through a protracted recount with no realistic hope of overturning the result would have been pointless, and I respect Kerry's decision to now concede.
However, Dan Rather's CBS still shows on its website that Bush has only 254 electoral votes, so it appears CBS is not yet ready to concede.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:17 PM
I believe that Kerry has shown some class by conceding at this point. Putting the country through a protracted recount with no realistic hope of overturning the result would have been pointless, and I respect Kerry's decision to now concede.
However, Dan Rather's CBS still shows on its website that Bush has only 254 electoral votes, so it appears CBS is not yet ready to concede.

CBS's has Bush with 274 electoral votes(Ohio and Nevada)

RedsBaron
11-03-2004, 01:19 PM
I hope M2 doesn't mind me posting this, but I think he was dead on clear back in January and had a lot of foresight in what he was saying.
M2's analysis was obviously excellent. Each party has a problem in coming up with a candidate who can bridge the gap and appeal to voters on the other side. I don't believe that Howard Dean would have had any more appeal to red state voters than Kerry had, and, other than John McCain, there are not a lot of Republicans who are both sufficently conservative to hold the G.O.P. base together and still appeal to those in blue states.

Ravenlord
11-03-2004, 01:21 PM
What is a more appropriate voting age for you guys?

Seems to me that if you can fight in a war, you should be able to vote.
18 or 20...and the drinking age, voting age, and drafting age should all come about at the same time.

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 01:23 PM
So anyone else want to take a stab at what's next for Kerry?

The Senate Minority Leader's job is suddenly open.

John Edwards, on the other hand, will have to figure out some way he can stay in the spotlight for the next four years.

CbusRed
11-03-2004, 01:24 PM
Once again, we have stood up and demonstrated to an extreme liberal candidate that he is out of touch with the principles, values, and beliefs of the average citizen. And it didn't end there. We stood up and made our voices heard in the Senate and House of Representatives races as well. This is a great day for conservative America. We have given OUR President a clear mandate to continue to lead our country. I am glowing with pride in my country today...

:gac:

OldXOhio
11-03-2004, 01:29 PM
other than John McCain, there are not a lot of Republicans who are both sufficently conservative to hold the G.O.P. base together and still appeal to those in blue states.

I would argue the GOP might come apart at its seems if McCain were to be its nominee.

2008 ought to be very interesting.

traderumor
11-03-2004, 01:29 PM
So anyone else want to take a stab at what's next for Kerry?

The Senate Minority Leader's job is suddenly open.

John Edwards, on the other hand, will have to figure out some way he can stay in the spotlight for the next four years.Kerry can go back to doing nothing, er I mean his Senatorial seat.

Cedric
11-03-2004, 01:31 PM
I love America. They stood up and supported moral and ethical values. At the end of the day it's not about foreign policy or anything else, it's about morals.

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:36 PM
Once again, we have stood up and demonstrated to an extreme liberal candidate that he is out of touch with the principles, values, and beliefs of the average citizen. And it didn't end there. We stood up and made our voices heard in the Senate and House of Representatives races as well. This is a great day for conservative America. We have given OUR President a clear mandate to continue to lead our country. I am glowing with pride in my country today...

:gac:

:thumbup:

It will be interesting to see how the Dems regroup after this episode. They were pretty divided as it is, just with one goal in mind, to beat Bush, and not only did they lose in that regard, they lost several seats in the Senate and House trying to run a smear campaign against Bush.

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 01:36 PM
So anyone else want to take a stab at what's next for Kerry?

The Senate Minority Leader's job is suddenly open.I think Kerry's on the committee track and usually that twain doesn't meet the leadership track, so Daschle's job probably will fall to Harry Reid of Nevada, the minority whip. I don't see Kerry running again in '08. Teddy found his Senate seat to be a good place to go out to pasture and I suspect that Kerry will, too.


John Edwards, on the other hand, will have to figure out some way he can stay in the spotlight for the next four years.Edwards probably got to shake a lot of wealthy donor hands in the last few months. He'll be busy quietly fundraising for another run in 2008.

OldXOhio
11-03-2004, 01:37 PM
So anyone else want to take a stab at what's next for Kerry?

The Senate Minority Leader's job is suddenly open.

John Edwards, on the other hand, will have to figure out some way he can stay in the spotlight for the next four years.

I think the media's critique of what went wrong with the Kerry campaign ought to keep the Breck girl in the spotlight at least for another month. My question is what effect will this have on Edwards' potential as the candidate in 2008? I would think one criticism of him has to be that he really lent zero to Kerry's chances.

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:37 PM
I love America. They stood up and supported moral and ethical values. At the end of the day it's not about foreign policy or anything else, it's about morals.

Respectfully, I've heard a lot of this and I do't understand it. I was no fan of Kerry, but I don't think he was immoral. Much of the Democratic party shares most of these same "values and morals" Republicans stake a claim too. I think it's a perception issue.

jmcclain19
11-03-2004, 01:38 PM
I would argue the GOP might come apart at its seems if McCain were to be its nominee.

2008 ought to be very interesting.

McCain won't run in 2008.

You can consider this my firm prediction.

The rumor out here in AZ is that he won't finish his term he was elected to just last night.

His skin cancer has gotten progressively worse the last few years, just earlier this year he had a sizable piece taken out of his forehead, not far from the spot he had when he was running for President in 2000.


Remember, only four people(Kennedy, Hoover, Eisenhower, Harding) since World War I have gone to the White House not being a Governor or Vice President before hand.

So when you're looking for possible winners on both sides, look to the state houses nation wide.

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:40 PM
Ultimately, I think it was a mistake for Kerry to focus on Iraq. His change of position mid-campaign turned off a lot of people. In hindsight, maybe he should have made Iraq a non-issue by agreeing with going there and not making that a difference between him and the President. Then he could have focused more on domestic issues and the economy. I think focusing too much on Iraq was a losing battle for Kerry.

Unassisted
11-03-2004, 01:43 PM
McCain won't run in 2008.

You can consider this my firm prediction.

The rumor out here in AZ is that he won't finish his term he was elected to just last night.Who's likely to get his seat, jmc?

Ever so slightly off-topic, whatever happened to Evan Mechem? Didn't he do jail time?

WVRed
11-03-2004, 01:46 PM
Ultimately, I think it was a mistake for Kerry to focus on Iraq. His change of position mid-campaign turned off a lot of people. In hindsight, maybe he should have made Iraq a non-issue by agreeing with going there and not making that a difference between him and the President. Then he could have focused more on domestic issues and the economy. I think focusing too much on Iraq was a losing battle for Kerry.

If morality was the big issue of the election, I dont think there was much that Kerry could have said or done to have swayed the vote.

Kerry could preach a Great Depression and a terrorist attack if Bush stayed in office all he wanted, but in the eyes of the Christians, the above would have happened anyways if we were killing babies and allowing homosexuals to marry, and they showed up to vote for Bush.

I think Pat Buchanon put it best last night on MSNBC when he said God, Gays, and Guns decided West Virginia. That could be the case for the whole election.

MWM
11-03-2004, 01:53 PM
This from Zogby regarding their pre-election polls"

"“We feel strongly that our pre-election polls were accurate on virtually every state. Our predictions on many of the key battleground states like Ohio and Florida were within the margin of error. I thought we captured a trend, but apparently that result didn’t materialize.


“We always saw a close race, and a close race is what we’ve got. I’ve called this the Armageddon Election for some time—a closely-divided electorate with high partisan intensity on each side."

OldXOhio
11-03-2004, 01:55 PM
Ultimately, I think it was a mistake for Kerry to focus on Iraq. His change of position mid-campaign turned off a lot of people. In hindsight, maybe he should have made Iraq a non-issue by agreeing with going there and not making that a difference between him and the President. Then he could have focused more on domestic issues and the economy. I think focusing too much on Iraq was a losing battle for Kerry.

Agreed, yet I find it rather interesting that some of the pundits are now saying in hindsight, perhaps a more anti-war candidate, like Howard Dean, could have fared better. Personally, I couldn't disagree with that contention any more, if for no other reason that Dean wasn't electable.

princeton
11-03-2004, 02:05 PM
This is a great day for conservative America.
:gac:

probably true. The interesting thing will be whether there's any effect on the people that have kept America on the cutting edge: the ones that have built IT, pharma, entertainment. They're all in blue states. You couldn't pay 'em enough to go to a red state, especially now. There's long been a brain drain from red to blue. Will it extend to a brain drain from blue to overseas?

do they continue to build their coastal havens, or do they look to other places where there are real civil liberties (you know, like voting), where there's equal opportunity, where the general welfare really is promoted, where actual lives of innocent foreign citizens are deemed more important than the fears of domestic citizenry, where there's governance by law, logic and civil rights, not by paranoia and religion?

Not predicting a mass exodus as a result of conscience or anything, but it's notable that key jobs are already leaving and that it's natural for key workers to follow. And at least this morning, it's easier to think about leaving

but all they ever do (besides drive the economy) is drone on about civil liberties, equal opportunity, and four freedoms. And who needs that

DunnersGrl44
11-03-2004, 02:08 PM
THIS IS A GREAT DAY FOR ALLLLLLLLLL OF AMERICA.
:gac: BUSH :gac:
:thumbup:

M2
11-03-2004, 02:09 PM
Actually, it's not. It was a thread started by M2 around the time of the Iowa caucus. I think the title was something like "Kerry just good enough to lose."

I think I used "just good enough to lose" in another thread. Also suggested Kerry relocate to Ohio after he'd salted away the primaries.

The Dems bet that Kerry could stand there and look presidential and that would win the day for them. IMO, it's symptomatic of a larger problem -- it's a party that's run out of big ideas. Whether you like the Republicans' big ideas, they have them -- eliminate all taxes on wealth, throw your military weight around, institutionalize a conservative social agenda.

That's why I thought it was critical the Dems throw in behind Dean. He was the only candidate they had who was able to wrap himself around big ideas. Dean was the one candidate who was going to deliver health care. That would have been a big bone to throw to the Democratic base. Yet he also had some untraditional (for the Dems) ideas. Fiscal responsibility -- something Kerry couldn't sell with his Senate background and vague proposals -- in opposition to what he called "borrow and spend" Republicans. Dean also pushed small government in a way you rarely see from Dems, particularly on the social front. He never crystallized it, but he was getting close. The core of it was that he wanted government off your back. In Dean's construct (which, again, he hadn't fully formed, but the skeleton had been erected), gays and gun owners were just going to have to deal with one another.

He also had a real cool small business stimulus program (which fit in with a consistent pro-individual, anti-corporate stance) and, supposedly, he was going to cut the payroll tax (a massive departure for the Dems). On top of that, Dean skewered Iraq, calling the Bush lead-up to the war overblown, calling it an inevitable quagmire before the invasion, insisting that it was a blind alley that would veer us away from a real war on terrorism.

Dean may not have won. Swing voters may not have cottoned to him, but he wouldn't have been arguing with Bush about flip-flops and he a lot to offer old style, small government conservatives (an almost totally disenfranchised group of voters these days). He was right about trying to appeal to the guy with the confederate flag sticker on his pickup.

It's a party that desperately need to redefine what it's all about.

Puffy
11-03-2004, 02:11 PM
THIS IS A GREAT DAY FOR ALLLLLLLLLL OF AMERICA.
:gac: BUSH :gac:
:thumbup:

No, its not a great day for all America - it might be a great day for you, but it sure ain't for me.

DunnersGrl44
11-03-2004, 02:13 PM
No, its not a great day for all America - it might be a great day for you, but it sure ain't for me.

All I'm saying is... If Bin Laden wants Kerry in office... that is the last person in the world I want in office. We would be a REALLY big target the minute that Kerry was signed in. I am thrilled. Cause now, I can sit back and relax. Bush is great. and most of America agrees with me :thumbup:

creek14
11-03-2004, 02:15 PM
No, its not a great day for all America - it might be a great day for you, but it sure ain't for me.
Yeah it stinks when you put the guy back in office who has done what it takes to keep us from being attacked again.

Sure would have rather had Kerry in there cutting defense, missile, intel, etc spending.

The chatter has been when Kerry wins it'll be a lot easier to get to them (us) on their homeland.

Ohhh, that would have been fun.

Falls City Beer
11-03-2004, 02:21 PM
"He was right about trying to appeal to the guy with the confederate flag sticker on his pickup."

I agree with a handful of your points, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this. The Democratic party needs to find a way to push these people to the margins in the way that the small government moderate conservative (I agree with this point particularly--and I have sympathy for their position) has recently been pushed to the margins. There needs to be an ense rescindendum on these people; they're a cancer that needs to be cut out, not courted. The Dems need to sell anger better; they need to control the social dialogue.

Honestly, the Repubs don't have "big ideas." They simply recycle the old "fear and hate" mantras they've been spouting since Nixon. Don't get me wrong, these things work, but they're clearly not "big ideas."

Puffy
11-03-2004, 02:21 PM
All I'm saying is... If Bin Laden wants Kerry in office... that is the last person in the world I want in office. We would be a REALLY big target the minute that Kerry was signed in. I am thrilled. Cause now, I can sit back and relax. Bush is great. and most of America agrees with me :thumbup:


Well, I'll tell you what - you're in college right now, and I believe you will be graduating while Bush is in office. Once you get out and try to find a job let me know then if you're still glad.

I started school while Clinton was in office and the jobs within 6 months out of Tulane was 96%. I graduated when Bush was in office and the jobs out of my class were 80%. This past year they were 75%.

I know a lot of people disagree with me that Bush and the conservative policies affected my job market, but I talked to employers and I talked to firms who were not even hiring but rather downsizing and from what they told me it mattered.

There are people in my office who were getting 10%-20% raises before Bush and know my firm is around 5% - yet we have more clients then ever.

I'm just sayin, people can disagree and people can be happy, but this is what i've seen and I, for one, am not happy about My Country's direction.

Puffy
11-03-2004, 02:23 PM
Yeah it stinks when you put the guy back in office who has done what it takes to keep us from being attacked again.



Also the same guy who vetoed Homeland Security, correct?

Falls City Beer
11-03-2004, 02:28 PM
Well, I'll tell you what - you're in college right now, and I believe you will be graduating while Bush is in office. Once you get out and try to find a job let me know then if you're still glad.

I started school while Clinton was in office and the jobs within 6 months out of Tulane was 96%. I graduated when Bush was in office and the jobs out of my class were 80%. This past year they were 75%.

I know a lot of people disagree with me that Bush and the conservative policies affected my job market, but I talked to employers and I talked to firms who were not even hiring but rather downsizing and from what they told me it mattered.

There are people in my office who were getting 10%-20% raises before Bush and know my firm is around 5% - yet we have more clients then ever.

I'm just sayin, people can disagree and people can be happy, but this is what i've seen and I, for one, am not happy about My Country's direction.

Any economist worth his or her salt will tell you that Bush's policies have been a nightmare not only for the manual laborers and manufacturing workers, but also very much for skilled laborers, educated workers. The net job loss is the biggest indicator, but other elements (hiring practices, a whole host of other metrics) are contributing. People simply don't realize how badly the economy is going and how many people in the end his policies are going to effect.

But what I fear most is that the needle will be so buried after the next four years, that any Democratic philosophies brought forth by the Democratic candidate will be simply untenable. The Republicans are going to get their "unfixable system" that arranges the classes more distinctly than they've ever been in this country's history.

DunnersGrl44
11-03-2004, 02:30 PM
Any economist worth his or her salt will tell you that Bush's policies have been a nightmare not only for the manual laborers and manufacturing workers, but also very much for skilled laborers, educated workers. The net job loss is the biggest indicator, but other elements (hiring practices, a whole host of other metrics) are contributing. People simply don't realize how badly the economy is going and how many people in the end his policies are going to effect.

But what I fear most is that the needle will be so buried after the next four years, that any Democratic philosophies brought forth by the Democratic candidate will be simply untenable. The Republicans are going to get their "unfixable system" that arranges the classes more distinctly than they've ever been in this country's history.

Yup.... And I can't wait!
BUSH RULES!

Falls City Beer
11-03-2004, 02:31 PM
You're hateful. I hope you don't find a job.

Chip R
11-03-2004, 02:32 PM
You're hateful. I hope you don't find a job.
Now, is that a nice thing to say? :(

Falls City Beer
11-03-2004, 02:33 PM
Now, is that a nice thing to say? :(


Sorry. Have no patience for rednecks. Boot me if you must.

TeamCasey
11-03-2004, 02:34 PM
All I'm saying is... If Bin Laden wants Kerry in office... that is the last person in the world I want in office. We would be a REALLY big target the minute that Kerry was signed in. I am thrilled. Cause now, I can sit back and relax. Bush is great. and most of America agrees with me :thumbup:

Roughly 51% of America agrees with you.

..... and we're still a really big target. I don't think that's changed.