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iammrred
12-15-2004, 07:13 PM
Did anyone catch this during this evening's Hot Stove League? Someone had asked Marty and Steve what they thought about Larkin not coming back. Marty asked the guy if he wanted the PC response (which he said Steve would provide) or the straight-from-the-heart response, which Marty gave. He said that what Larkin did on the last day (leaving the game, going up to the press box, sitting with his family during the game, etc.) was the most "classless" thing he's seen in baseball. He then mentioned that Larkin was already here in Cincinnati longer than he should have been, and that he thought it was interesting that Larkin's agent is now telling team's that he's willing to take a back-up role when he was totally against the idea with the Reds.

Marty then said that a back-up role only makes sense because "folks, I'm sorry to tell you, but there's no way Larkin can start 100 games."

I was a little shocked to hear Marty speak so candidly about Larkin with no seeming inclination of holding back. In fairness, he did say that Larkin was one of the greatest players in team history, but that most fans (to him) didn't seem to mind Larkin not coming back.

(Yes, I agree with him. But I'm not the Reds broadcaster, and the only backlash I get is laced with emoticons. Seems pretty ballsy of Marty to take such a stance.)

(Chip -- I hope I don't steal your thunder from your weekly reports, which I always enjoy. :thumbup: )

MWM
12-15-2004, 07:19 PM
Marty schmarty. I tired of his act about 5 years ago. I think HE'S the one who's worn out his welcome in Cincinnati and I'll be glad when HE has moved on. Great play-by-play man. Awful otherwise.

westofyou
12-15-2004, 07:21 PM
http://www.geocities.com/tonardtd/Media/grumpy.JPEG

Redsfaithful
12-15-2004, 07:22 PM
Marty schmarty. I tired of his act about 5 years ago. I think HE'S the one who's worn out his welcome in Cincinnati and I'll be glad when HE has moved on. Great play-by-play man. Awful otherwise.

Yeah. I can't believe how cavalier some people are about Joe leaving, but don't mind Marty. I love, LOVE Nuxy, and I don't hate Marty, but if I had to choose between the two it wouldn't be hard.

Larkin really hasn't done anything wrong, at least from where I stand, and I wish him the best with whatever team he chooses. If the Reds can't win it all in '05 then I hope Larkin's team does.

pedro
12-15-2004, 07:24 PM
Marty schmarty. I tired of his act about 5 years ago. I think HE'S the one who's worn out his welcome in Cincinnati and I'll be glad when HE has moved on. Great play-by-play man. Awful otherwise.

what mwm and woy said.

Sweetstop
12-15-2004, 07:28 PM
"the most classless thing he's seen in baseball"??? :rolleyes: ....give me a break! What's wrong with this man? Marty's ego has blown up like a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade balloon!

He never has gotten along w/ Barry, but I thought they had buried the hatchet. So he waits till Barry is gone and starts pouncing on him again. Yuuch!

redsfanmia
12-15-2004, 07:32 PM
Marty is an arrogant jerk, he knows everything and if you dont believe me just ask Marty he will let you know.

Team Clark
12-15-2004, 07:41 PM
Marty is a god guy, but he would know classless. Marty works with the most classless guy I have ever met. Rob Butcher.

RedDog
12-15-2004, 07:47 PM
After all these years, still bitter?

johngalt
12-15-2004, 08:11 PM
I think Marty's on the money saying Larkin's done and needed to be gone sooner (this has been debated endlessly here, so that's all I'll say), but I'm not so sure on the "classless" comment about the final game. I sort of understand what he's saying and I think some of what Larkin did that day was ridiculous, but for Marty to say that is a pretty strong statement.

icehole3
12-15-2004, 08:12 PM
I agree with Marty, where's the respect to Dave Miley not to mention Trader Jack who Larkin dissed. Goodbye Barry.

MWM
12-15-2004, 08:14 PM
Your perfect record of mentioning McKeon in every post stays intact. :mhcky21: :mhcky21: :mhcky21:

Edd Roush
12-15-2004, 08:15 PM
I remember at Redsfest last year Marty trashing the commitment the Reds made to Wily Mo and brought up his putrid Winter League stats. I think that one back-fired on him :allovrjr:

guernsey
12-15-2004, 08:31 PM
The Reds have added a link to recorded versions of the Hot Stove League on their web site now. Tonight's show is already available for listening.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=cin

RosieRed
12-15-2004, 08:53 PM
So it's classless for a player to go into the stands in his uniform, but it's not classless to completely bash one of the best Reds in recent history? Whatever Marty. :rolleyes:

I only caught bits of the show near the end, but I did hear Marty bashing Brandon Larson, of all people. I didn't care for that either.

REDREAD
12-15-2004, 09:00 PM
Marty is a jerk. It's classless to slam Larkin after he left.

Marty is probably jealous over all the time that Larkin was a bigger name in the Reds organization than he is..

Yeah, Marty, real classless of Larkin to thank the fans after the team gave him the boot.

And who cares if Lark insisted on starting here (no proof) but now is willing to be a backup? Can't the man change his mind (if that is true).. Let's see, Larkin was benched the last 6 weeks, but still wanted to come back. Marty needs to give Lark some credit for having enough intelligence to realize that he wouldn't be the regular starter. Lark probably prefered to start, because he's a competitor, but surely he knew that he wouldn't start every game if he came back.

Marty is a pompous, classless jerk. I'll be glad when the old grouch leaves the booth. He obviously doesn't enjoy his job anymore, so why doesn't he just retire.

Playadlc
12-15-2004, 09:31 PM
While I think Marty is going over the top, I do somewhat agree with him regarding what Barry did the last day. That, IMO, was pretty weak. But to say it was the most classless thing he has ever seen is absurd and can't possibly be true.

Cedric
12-15-2004, 09:45 PM
I love Marty. Some people hate the truth. I'm a big fan of Larkin, but he hasn't exactly been the most professional with some of his actions of late.

2001MUgrad
12-15-2004, 09:46 PM
Marty is one of the greatest announcers and we should feel previlidged to get to listen to him doing the Reds games.

RANDY IN INDY
12-15-2004, 09:57 PM
Marty has always spoke his mind, and he goes in the clubhouse afterward to catch any flack that may arise from his comments. He's ruffled the feathers of a lot of Reds players over the years. Sure Marty has an ego, but I've seen ego's and opinions as big as Marty's here at Redszone. He has as much right to an opinion as anyone, and he tells it like it is when he is asked. I'm relatively sure that Marty has more up front information about the Larkin saga than any of us, and the Reds front office is probably not going to say much about his comments since they haven't had a lot of love for Larkin lately, either.

Donder
12-15-2004, 10:01 PM
I could be mistaken, but when Larkin came up to the booth on the last day of the season weren't Marty and Joe (at the time) commenting on how CLASSY an act it was? Does anyone remember that?

KronoRed
12-15-2004, 10:09 PM
Yeah. I can't believe how cavalier some people are about Joe leaving, but don't mind Marty. I love, LOVE Nuxy, and I don't hate Marty, but if I had to choose between the two it wouldn't be hard.


Same, I'd rather lisen to Joe mess up peoples names then Marty slame everyone left and right.

redsfan30
12-15-2004, 10:10 PM
Hey, if you can't take the truth, don't ask for it.

Marty did nothing wrong. He gets paid to talk about baseball and he's been around the city and team long enough that I think he has the right to speak up and voice his opinion now and then.

If you guys aren't trashing on one guy, it's another.

Cedric
12-15-2004, 10:11 PM
Marty is soft compared to people on this board. It's almost laughable to accuse Marty of mouthing and bashing anything and everything when this board is FULL of that kind of thing. And i'm included in that.

redsfan30
12-15-2004, 10:13 PM
Marty is soft compared to people on this board. It's almost laughable to accuse Marty of mouthing and bashing anything and everything when this board is FULL of that kind of thing.
:notworthy

MWM
12-15-2004, 10:16 PM
When people on this board become something more than anonymous people on some internet message board, then we compare. Marty is the voice of the Reds and is given a public outlet listened to by thousands of people. Surely you understand the difference. If I had a radio show listened to by mass people, I wouldn't say a lot of what I say here.

Falls City Beer
12-15-2004, 10:19 PM
Personally I've got no beef whatsoever with Marty taking issue with any Red or Reds under contract. But when it comes to people no longer employed by the Reds? Move on, Marty. Save that bile for this year...you're going to need it.

Reds4Life
12-15-2004, 10:24 PM
I've always liked Marty. I'm sure a lot of others within the Reds feel the same way Marty does, they just don't have a pair big enough to say it.

Preach on, Marty. :thumbup:

MWM
12-15-2004, 10:26 PM
Some are making Marty out to be a virtuous truth teller. Marty has created the Brenneman brand and now all he's doing is trying to live up to the image he's created. This isn't about Barry, it's about Marty. He's selling himself here. Nothing more. And it looks like his customers are buying it in droves.

M2
12-15-2004, 10:26 PM
I could be mistaken, but when Larkin came up to the booth on the last day of the season weren't Marty and Joe (at the time) commenting on how CLASSY an act it was? Does anyone remember that?

Yep, Larkin was universally praised for making such a classy exit at the time. Made sure he said a proper farewell not just to his teammates, but the people behind the scenes as well.

Marty's just probably confused by the show of public decency. His brain can't process it.

redsfan30
12-15-2004, 10:28 PM
So do you want him to sugar coat things?

Cedric
12-15-2004, 10:29 PM
I think it's a little rude to think you have figured out some master plan by Marty and accuse everyone that disagrees with you to be stupid. That is almost laughable and at the same time rude and conceded. If you disagree with me fine, but don't tell me i'm being bought and i'm too stupid to realize it.

Chip R
12-15-2004, 10:31 PM
Don't worry about stealing my thunder. [richard hand] I'll just sue you for copyright infringement [/richard hand] ;)

This is only speculation on my part but I believe Marty feels like he does because he believes Barry did that to show up the Reds front office for not giving into his demands and it was a stunt to curry favor with the fans and try to force the Reds to offer him a deal for 2005. He probably believes that what Barry did burned John Allen and DanO's hides. Marty is a big supporter of those two and that is why, IMO, he said what he said.

redsfan30
12-15-2004, 10:34 PM
Some are making Marty out to be a virtuous truth teller. Marty has created the Brenneman brand and now all he's doing is trying to live up to the image he's created. This isn't about Barry, it's about Marty. He's selling himself here. Nothing more. And it looks like his customers are buying it in droves.
You don't honestly believe that do you......

Cedric
12-15-2004, 10:34 PM
Where do I find a Marty t-shirt and coffee mug?

Krusty
12-15-2004, 10:35 PM
While Marty might have been accused of going overboard with his mouth on occassion, I don't think we can honestly say that Barry Larkin is a saint either.

Either way, it's time to move on.

MWM
12-15-2004, 10:37 PM
Where do I find a Marty t-shirt and coffee mug?

In the aisle next to the Kool-Aid.

Cedric
12-15-2004, 10:38 PM
At Kroger? Marty told me to shop Kroger and I never stopped going.

tsj017
12-15-2004, 10:40 PM
Marty ROCKS.

:gac: :gac:

As usual, he gives it to us straight, no chaser. Also as usual, it's a bit too strong for some Reds fans who prefer rah-rah cheerleading Kool-Aid to the hard stuff.

Classless? I'd go so far as to say Larkin's self-choreographed departure was unprecedented in baseball history. Has a departing player ever gone to such self-indulgent lengths? Taking himself out of the game. Addressing his public. Sitting with his family. What a prima donna.

By the way . . . Larkin hasn't signed yet, right? Could it be that Barry overestimated the demand for his services anywhere but Cincinnati? And in the end, he overestimated even that.

I look forward to a season of Reds baseball mercifully free of the annual Barry Larkin melodrama. He's gone, and Marty's still here.

:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

It's a good time to be a Reds fan.

wheels
12-15-2004, 10:44 PM
Ummmm...What are you talking about?

Self indulgent?

Everyone from the bottum up knew that game was his last as a Red.

Most great players get a proper sendoff, and he got nothing. While I realize they had something lined up, and Barry decided otherwise, but as far as a sendoff goes, that one was pretty tame and hardly self indulgent.

Krusty
12-15-2004, 10:48 PM
If Barry stuck to his intentions of retiring after the 2004 season, the Reds would have sent him out in style. But Barry was looking at Barry's interests and once he knew the Reds had no intentions of having him come back as the everyday shortstop in 2005, he decided to grandstand himself the last game of the season.

Barry made his bed. Let him lay in it.

M2
12-15-2004, 10:49 PM
You don't honestly believe that do you......

Why not? That's what media personalities do. They build a brand name around a certain persona. Marty's the grumpy baseball announcer who was here before you joined the team and he'll be here after you leave the team.

This is just his way of saying, "The Reds are MY team, not yours Barry Larkin."

MWM
12-15-2004, 10:53 PM
There's a reason why guys like Marty and Pete Rose are adored in Cincinnati and guys like Barry aren't.

Krusty
12-15-2004, 10:55 PM
There's a reason why guys like Marty and Pete Rose are adored in Cincinnati and guys like Barry aren't.


I assume we are using racisim here?

Cedric
12-15-2004, 10:55 PM
Because we are all stupid and we buy into everything.

It's not even possible someone could have a valid reason to disagree with you. That isn't even remotely possible.

4256 Hits
12-15-2004, 10:56 PM
So it's classless for a player to go into the stands in his uniform, but it's not classless to completely bash one of the best Reds in recent history? Whatever Marty. :rolleyes:

I only caught bits of the show near the end, but I did hear Marty bashing Brandon Larson, of all people. I didn't care for that either.

Yes he did bring up Larson as an example of a player that couldn't adjust to hitting w/ a wood bat. This just proves that just because you are a hall of famer doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. Larson had many problems but adjusting to a wood bat (as he proved in AAA) was not one of them.

I am also surprised it hasn't been brought up yet that refered to Bowden as the anti-christ! Does he even know what that means? If he does then I have lost all respect for him. Bin Laden could be refered to as the anti-christ but a baseball GM that had trouble getting starting pitches doesn't exactly qualify.

By the way I only listened for 5 min on the way home for work before I turned it off and this is the 1st and now last time I listen this year and I used to listen to nearly every minute in years past.

MWM
12-15-2004, 10:59 PM
Because we are all stupid and we buy into everything.

It's not even possible someone could have a valid reason to disagree with you. That isn't even remotely possible.

You've defended everything Marty has ever said. Your record is 100% in favor of Marty every time he's ever brought up.

And if you think I can't handle people disagreeing with me on this board, then you haven't been paying attention.

wheels
12-15-2004, 10:59 PM
I'm not really taking sides on this issue, I think they both have reasons for what they say and do, and they've both been wrong from time to time....

That being said, they BOTH have definitely made it easier to be a fan of this team for as long as I can remember.

Hopefully this passes quickly.

M2
12-15-2004, 11:03 PM
Seems to me what Marty and Pete share is a flare for self-promotion. They aren't classless jerks who'd throw an elbow at an old lady if they thought she was in the way, they're telling it like it is.

Barry Larkin spent his time in Cincinnati being well-spoken, well-mannered, not running down others, playing hard. Guy like that doesn't have a chance when the bully boys move in. He'll take the high road while the weasels toss mud all over his image. All some folks see is the mud.

Cedric
12-15-2004, 11:05 PM
Not running down others? Tell that to Ray Knight, Jack Mckeon and plenty others.

Barry did his dirty deeds behind closed doors and Marty is out in the open.

MWM
12-15-2004, 11:06 PM
I was thinking more of the good old counry boy reference, not necessarily race, even though I think it does have a little to do with it in some circles.

wheels
12-15-2004, 11:06 PM
The same can be said about Johnny Bench as well. He doesn't seem to be deified as much as Pete.

MWM
12-15-2004, 11:07 PM
Barry did his dirty deeds behind closed doors and Marty is out in the open.

Then how do you know they happened?

Cedric
12-15-2004, 11:07 PM
How in the hell Pete Rose got into this discussion is something I don't understand. It's not comparable, Pete was loved because of his style of play and because he was raised here. It has nothing to do with Marty Brenneman getting support from fans.

MWM
12-15-2004, 11:14 PM
Pete was loved because of his style of play and because he was raised here.

Barry Larkin says hi.

Cedric
12-15-2004, 11:15 PM
The thing is I love Barry Larkin and Marty, you can check the past threads and i'm usually 100% percent behind Barry. I'm not even arguing that Marty was right in what he said about Barry, but I just don't understand why he isn't allowed a view on a subject. He answered what he felt and to me that doesn't make him a pompous jerk.
And it surely doesn't make anyone that agrees with him some idiot that buys anything Marty sells. I'm not sure you really care, but it's pretty rude to say that.

M2
12-15-2004, 11:20 PM
Not running down others? Tell that to Ray Knight, Jack Mckeon and plenty others.

Barry did his dirty deeds behind closed doors and Marty is out in the open.

Ray Knight was a horrible manager. He richly deserved the canning he got. Jack was brought in as an interim manager and lasted longer than anyone anticipated (or in many cases more than they wanted). One of the few things Bowden and Allen agreed upon in their latter years was that Jack needed to go after the 2000 season.

Perhaps Larkin agreed with both moves. So what? They were going to happen whether he did or not.

I don't expect everyone to get along, to like everyone they work with. Barry Larkin simply has the class not to air his dirty laundry, making a public issue out of something that should stay in house. It's one of many laudable instincts Marty Brennaman lacks.

So, yeah, Barry never ran down Ray Knight or Jack McKeon or anyone else. You can't find the quote because he never made negative public statements about them. Running them down would have involved needlessly trashing them in public. Larkin never did that.

M2
12-15-2004, 11:24 PM
The same can be said about Johnny Bench as well. He doesn't seem to be deified as much as Pete.

Probably because he isn't a self-promotional huckster.

cincinnati chili
12-15-2004, 11:26 PM
I'm one of Marty's biggest defenders, but I really don't see the big deal of what Barry did on his last day. And it really makes Marty seem shallow if he praised him for doing it during the final game, and is bashing him for it now.

M2
12-15-2004, 11:35 PM
How in the hell Pete Rose got into this discussion is something I don't understand. It's not comparable, Pete was loved because of his style of play and because he was raised here. It has nothing to do with Marty Brenneman getting support from fans.

Pete also did everything he could to make sure the fans loved him more than all others. He viewed the team as his territory as was willing to drench it with his urine if anyone challenged that.

Marty loved Pete and learned from Pete. When Pete left he decided to make the Reds his team. His eagerness to run down the team's players on personal matters appalls me.


[QUOTE=Chip R} This is only speculation on my part but I believe Marty feels like he does because he believes Barry did that to show up the Reds front office for not giving into his demands and it was a stunt to curry favor with the fans and try to force the Reds to offer him a deal for 2005. He probably believes that what Barry did burned John Allen and DanO's hides. Marty is a big supporter of those two and that is why, IMO, he said what he said.[/QUOTE]

Which gets back to my point about Marty being confused by decency.

RFS62
12-15-2004, 11:36 PM
This is only speculation on my part but I believe Marty feels like he does because he believes Barry did that to show up the Reds front office for not giving into his demands and it was a stunt to curry favor with the fans and try to force the Reds to offer him a deal for 2005. He probably believes that what Barry did burned John Allen and DanO's hides. Marty is a big supporter of those two and that is why, IMO, he said what he said.


Sounds about right to me.

I don't have the lifelong attachment to Marty that many who grew up listening to him do.

I've never quite understood the loyalty he gets from so many, but I accept it as a fact.

But I think Chip nailed it in that post.

MWM
12-15-2004, 11:44 PM
If Marty is so concerned about not sugar coating things and "telling it like it is", then why is he never critical of the front office? Why has he not criticized John Allen. And if Chip is right, why does Marty feel the need to defend the front office. Is it because Allen signs his check?

He gives them a free pass which is why I don't buy the Honest Abe argument.

Cedric
12-15-2004, 11:48 PM
So it's possibly ok for someone to stab others in the back in private countless times and because he doesn't tell the public about it that's ok? I'm not into that kind of thinking, just my view.
In my view you are giving Barry WAY WAY too much credit. You think he didn't air his dirty laundry because he cared about Jack and Ray Knight or anyone else? It's not possible he kept it behind closed doors because he was afraid of being viewed as some kind of cancer or backstabber? Fans and the media don't like when players try and get coaches or gm's fired. I think THAT is why Barry didn't come to the press, it would have been career suicide.

MWM
12-15-2004, 11:53 PM
Again, if it all happened behind closed doors, how are you so clear as to what happened?

Cedric
12-15-2004, 11:57 PM
I'm not 100% sure of the way it went down because i've only heard from the point of view of McKeon and Knight, but I choose to believe that these two men didn't just make it up out of thin air. If they did i've been duped, and i'm very easily duped I guess.

M2
12-16-2004, 12:07 AM
So it's possibly ok for someone to stab others in the back in private countless times and because he doesn't tell the public about it that's ok? I'm not into that kind of thinking, just my view.
In my view you are giving Barry WAY WAY too much credit. You think he didn't air his dirty laundry because he cared about Jack and Ray Knight or anyone else? It's not possible he kept it behind closed doors because he was afraid of being viewed as some kind of cancer or backstabber? Fans and the media don't like when players try and get coaches or gm's fired. I think THAT is why Barry didn't come to the press, it would have been career suicide.

Decency. It's a simple concept. Barry has it.

And how the hell do you know he stabbed anyone in the back? In fact, define stabbing someone in the back. Because pointing out that Ray Knight was an awful manager counts as stating the obvious in my book, as does noting that Jack McKeon had a certain uninvolved quality in the managing of the club. It's not like those two were skating along without a care in the world until Barry Larkin took them down. Those welcomes were worn out regardless of what Larkin said or did.

Barry worked for a company. He worked hard, always. He excelled at his job. Were there office politics? Sure, wherever humans are employed there are office politics. Barry Larkin always had the courtesy to keep that stuff out of the spotlight. It's the right thing to do. Let me state that again, because this one strikes me as unequivocal -- It's the RIGHT thing to do.

Cedric
12-16-2004, 12:09 AM
It's the only thing to do. You make it out like it's some kind of professional thing because he didn't tell the press. This is reported to happen ALL the time in sports and never once has a player owned up to it, i'm not saying it's true everytime it's reported either. 99% of the time when it leaks the player get's blasted. I'm just saying I don't think it's out of courtesy or respect that it stayed out of the press.

MWM
12-16-2004, 12:18 AM
You make it out like it's some kind of professional thing because he didn't tell the press.

It IS professional to keep INTERNAL problems out of the press. I see absolutely nothing wrong with an employee talking to management about an issue within the organization. If you think people like Barry are supposed to just sit back and never voice concerns about things his peers are concerned about, when he's considered the mouthpiece for the players, then you don't understand leadership and the work place.

If voicing opinions the players share about a couple of managers to the front office, then you have nothing.

M2
12-16-2004, 12:19 AM
It's the only thing to do. You make it out like it's some kind of professional thing because he didn't tell the press. This is reported to happen ALL the time in sports and never once has a player owned up to it, i'm not saying it's true everytime it's reported either. 99% of the time when it leaks the player get's blasted. I'm just saying I don't think it's out of courtesy or respect that it stayed out of the press.

Right's right. I don't go looking for ulterior motives when someone consistently does the right thing. Barry's always been well-spoken and considerate in his public remarks. Though declining the opportunity to bash someone else's character can be defined as courteous, respectful and professional, what it really amounts to is decent and proper.

It's something he doesn't do. Blame his parents for raising him right.

Chip R
12-16-2004, 12:33 AM
If Marty is so concerned about not sugar coating things and "telling it like it is", then why is he never critical of the front office? Why has he not criticized John Allen. And if Chip is right, why does Marty feel the need to defend the front office. Is it because Allen signs his check?

He gives them a free pass which is why I don't buy the Honest Abe argument.
Perhaps it's because he legitimately agrees with what John Allen has done and what DanO has done. It may not necessarily be because Allen signs his paycheck but perhaps he believes that is how it should be.

I think Marty sees himself as not just an employee of the Reds but almost as the Reds himself. That sounds kind of funny and I don't know if I expressed myself correctly but when you work for a company as long as he has, you start to see yourself and the company as one and the same. What the company does reflects on you and vice versa. Marty probably feels such a part of the Reds that anything that reflects badly on them, reflects badly on him. Barry Larkin is one of my all time favorite players but I can still see that what he did the last day of the season - not to mention the statements he made during the last month or so - was a calculated move to protest the Reds policy of not talking about contracts - namely his - until after the season. It also was a ploy to try to get the fans to rise up and demand that the Reds re-sign him similar to what happened in 2000. But I think Barry overplayed his hand there. He wasn't the player he was at the end of 2004 that he was in 2000. At the end of the day fans are all about how the player performs on the field. If Barry were hitting .320, on a pace for 20-30 HRs and driving in 80-90 runs while playing 150 games, he might have got the fans to demand that he be re-signed. But even though he made the All Star team in 2004, he was still bothered by injuries and couldn't play every day. When he did he played well enough but certainly not up to his HOF standards. So people say, "It's been fun knowing you, Barry. Good luck elsewhere."

Getting back to Marty: Before John Allen came on board we had Marge. I don't think I need to go into detail about how she embarrassed the Reds franchise. Like her or not, backing how she operated the club or not, she embarrassed the Cincinnati Reds. John Allen comes on board and like him or not, the Reds have been run in a professional way. Since, as I stated before, Marty views himself as almost a part of the Reds he likes that the Reds are no longer fodder for late night comedians and sports columnists. As for JimBo, Marty probably had a pretty good idea over the years about the Machiavellian way he ran things. He would read and hear JimBo's mendacious statements and since he knew the real score, that probably made him mad. Not to mention the fact that JimBo couldn't develop any pitching to save his life probably wasn't exactly something that endeared JimBo to Marty. JimBo is fired and - as is the case in sports - the polar oppposite of JimBo is hired. DanO probably doesn't run the front office like a Czarist palace. He doesn't leak stuff to the media. He's much more buttoned down than JimBo is. And he's more deliberate than JimBo. Since DanO is not JimBo, Marty likes him. I don't think he's necessarily a shill for the company line but he's not going to be doing any boat rocking anytime soon. And it's not like you can't defend DanO's moves either. You may not agree with them but if you gave it some thought you could defend them. Marty is probably thinking that whatever philosophy JimBo was operating under wasn't working so he's going to give DanO a shot.

M2
12-16-2004, 12:35 AM
DanO and Allen also don't steal Marty's spotlight.

Shaggy Sanchez
12-16-2004, 12:36 AM
I have never been a fan of Barry Larkin and when he would pull his crap with the media about contracts and this and that it made me like him even less, personally I am thrilled to see him gone.

As for Marty I like that he doesn't sugar coat things and tells it how it is, however I do feel he goes a little far at times and wants to be bigger than the Reds a lot of times. In my opinion though I would rather put up with his antics than listen to George sugar coat everything as if I were a 5 year old.

MWM
12-16-2004, 12:38 AM
You might be right Chip, but Marty is one of the most critical people I've ever heard. He'e critical to just about everyone, but he has his cronies that can do no wrong. That's where I take issue with Marty's constant criticism of people. He doesn't seem to be consistent across the board.

And based on his highly critical nature, how in the hell could he actually AGREE with what John Allen is doing?

M2
12-16-2004, 12:38 AM
I especially hated when Larkin played for the Reds through his prime on below market contracts. And the way he took younger players under his wing and helped show them the ropes of the game, disgusting.

He should be shot.

MWM
12-16-2004, 12:41 AM
How come there's NEVER been a teammate (Pokey doesn't count) who has had anything but PRAISE for Barry Larkin? Players who have made brief stops in Cincinnati have spoken about Barry in almost hushed and reverent tones. And how come Barry Larkin is one of the most revered and respected players among the players in MLB?

iammrred
12-16-2004, 08:50 AM
I don't expect everyone to get along, to like everyone they work with. Barry Larkin simply has the class not to air his dirty laundry, making a public issue out of something that should stay in house.

Where were you in September?

johngalt
12-16-2004, 09:02 AM
I especially hated when Larkin played for the Reds through his prime on below market contracts.

You mean like in 1992, 1993 and 1995 when Larkin had the 5th highest contract in the NL and was the highest paid shortstop in the league? I'm sure glad we have this myth about Larkin to fall back on everytime this discussion comes up.


And the way he took younger players under his wing and helped show them the ropes of the game, disgusting.


The ropes of the game as in teaching them how to distrust management, speak out against the team and do your own thing regardless of the rules that are in place? Yeah, he deserves a medal.

zombie-a-go-go
12-16-2004, 09:04 AM
There's a reason why guys like Marty and Pete Rose are adored in Cincinnati and guys like Barry aren't.

That's a dangerous train of thought to ride, MWM. I don't think you want to be tossing that blanket over an entire city.

TeamCasey
12-16-2004, 09:25 AM
I think Marty, Pete and Barry are all a little guilty of self promotion. *shrug*

redsfan30
12-16-2004, 09:44 AM
This just proves that just because you are a hall of famer doesn't mean you know what you are talking about.
:MandJ: :rolleyes:

Here we go again....

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 09:45 AM
. Though declining the opportunity to bash someone else's character can be defined as courteous, respectful and professional, what it really amounts to is decent and proper.

It's something he doesn't do. Blame his parents for raising him right.

Yes, I bet if Larkin was classless and given the opportunity, he could say plenty of things that would make MARTY look like an absolute fool.

For the past 6 years or so, Marty thinks he is some kind of a god. That he's the sole reason people tune into WLW on weekday nights at 7:30.

He gets on these crusades that are extremely annoying.. Now Barry is one of his crusades. You can bet that if Barry signs with the Cards or some other NL club, we're going to get to hear Marty slam Lark everytime the Reds play them :rolleyes: The old fart does not know when to let things go.

In fact, I bet Marty will still be trashing Lark years after he retires. It's pretty pathetic. Time to show Marty the door.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 09:49 AM
You mean like in 1992, 1993 and 1995 when Larkin had the 5th highest contract in the NL and was the highest paid shortstop in the league? I'm sure glad we have this myth about Larkin to fall back on everytime this discussion comes up..

Here's reality. He was eligible for free agency and took less to sign with the Reds. He was coming off an MVP season. He could've easily been the highest paid player in baseball at the time. Probably gave up an extra 3-4 million/year in salary, so that the Reds could be competitive. Even the union was upset that he didn't do an ARod mercencary tour.

johngalt
12-16-2004, 09:55 AM
Here's reality. He was eligible for free agency and took less to sign with the Reds. He was coming off an MVP season. He could've easily been the highest paid player in baseball at the time. Probably gave up an extra 3-4 million/year in salary, so that the Reds could be competitive. Even the union was upset that he didn't do an ARod mercencary tour.

Larkin was not going to be the highest-paid player in baseball at any point in his career. That would have been completely ridiculous. Highest-paid shortstop and among the best in the NL in salary? That sounds like fair market value to me.

Redsland
12-16-2004, 10:11 AM
Barry Larkin is one of my all time favorite players but I can still see that what he did the last day of the season - not to mention the statements he made during the last month or so - was a calculated move to protest the Reds policy of not talking about contracts - namely his - until after the season. It also was a ploy to try to get the fans to rise up and demand that the Reds re-sign him similar to what happened in 2000.
And 2003. "I'll miss you, Rick Stowe. Here's a Mercedes. Bye-bye everyone! *wipes away a tear* What's this? A new deal? Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas one and all!"


The same can be said about Johnny Bench as well. He doesn't seem to be deified as much as Pete.
True. But there’s a big ‘ol number 5 on the back of my Reds jersey. :thumbup:

Falls City Beer
12-16-2004, 10:30 AM
And 2003. "I'll miss you, Rick Stowe. Here's a Mercedes. Bye-bye everyone! *wipes away a tear* What's this? A new deal? Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas one and all!"


True. But there’s a big ‘ol number 5 on the back of my Reds jersey. :thumbup:

Barry Larkin, as much as I love him as a player, is as much a self-aggrandizing twit as anybody in the game. But how does that excuse Marty for taking a potshot at someone who is no longer in the Reds' employ? Marty's not only self-aggrandizing, but under these circumstances, he comes off as pathetic.

ODERED
12-16-2004, 10:37 AM
Marty has always spoke his mind, and he goes in the clubhouse afterward to catch any flack that may arise from his comments. He's ruffled the feathers of a lot of Reds players over the years. Sure Marty has an ego, but I've seen ego's and opinions as big as Marty's here at Redszone. He has as much right to an opinion as anyone, and he tells it like it is when he is asked. I'm relatively sure that Marty has more up front information about the Larkin saga than any of us, and the Reds front office is probably not going to say much about his comments since they haven't had a lot of love for Larkin lately, either.

AMEN!!!! :thumbup: I find it SO, SO, SO ironic that Larkin wanted to "retire a Red" with this last contract (oops, he said that with the ridiculous contract before!), and yet he goes out looking for a job elsewhere. The man never wanted to retired, what he DID do was milk the Reds for all they're worth, money-wise. When they got tired of his act (as I did on the former contract), he moved on with his begging show to other teams. If anyone of those two between Marty and Barry are "classless", I'd say Barry is. Marty is one of the greatest play-by-play announcers ever, if not THE best in Reds history. Keep telling it like it is, Marty, we love ya! :thumbup:

ODERED
12-16-2004, 10:41 AM
Marty ROCKS.

:gac: :gac:

As usual, he gives it to us straight, no chaser. Also as usual, it's a bit too strong for some Reds fans who prefer rah-rah cheerleading Kool-Aid to the hard stuff.

Classless? I'd go so far as to say Larkin's self-choreographed departure was unprecedented in baseball history. Has a departing player ever gone to such self-indulgent lengths? Taking himself out of the game. Addressing his public. Sitting with his family. What a prima donna.

By the way . . . Larkin hasn't signed yet, right? Could it be that Barry overestimated the demand for his services anywhere but Cincinnati? And in the end, he overestimated even that.

I look forward to a season of Reds baseball mercifully free of the annual Barry Larkin melodrama. He's gone, and Marty's still here.

:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

It's a good time to be a Reds fan.


You just made this upcoming season THAT much more exciting for me :thumbup:

ODERED
12-16-2004, 10:43 AM
Ummmm...What are you talking about?

Self indulgent?

Everyone from the bottum up knew that game was his last as a Red.

Most great players get a proper sendoff, and he got nothing. While I realize they had something lined up, and Barry decided otherwise, but as far as a sendoff goes, that one was pretty tame and hardly self indulgent.

WRONG, wheels. You're usually on the money here, but not this time. Remember when Barry turned down the end-of-season ceremony because he was still "thinking about retirement"???? The Red DID offer a going away party, Barry turned it down. He reaped what he sowed.

RANDY IN INDY
12-16-2004, 10:45 AM
Marty might be critical, but he doesn't hold a candle to a lot of folks here at Redszone. ;)

ODERED
12-16-2004, 10:56 AM
I especially hated when Larkin played for the Reds through his prime on below market contracts. And the way he took younger players under his wing and helped show them the ropes of the game, disgusting.

He should be shot.

Maybe Barry was less greedy than other baseball players, in his prime, but confirmed what we know about MOST baseball players, when he signed that ridiculously expensive contract as a beat-up-has-been veteran: that he is greedy. His wanting to retire a Red was just a ploy to get more money, and when the Reds said "no more, Barry", he took back all that desire to retire a Red, to get money elsewhere. How's THAT for team loyalty?
:rolleyes:

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 11:08 AM
Larkin was not going to be the highest-paid player in baseball at any point in his career. That would have been completely ridiculous. Highest-paid shortstop and among the best in the NL in salary? That sounds like fair market value to me.


Sorry, but you obviously don't remember back then. If he had shopped himself to the highest bidder, he would've been the highest paid player.
He was just named MVP, played gold glove SS.. He was the ARod of the 1995 ERA.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 11:10 AM
His wanting to retire a Red was just a ploy to get more money, :

Yeah, that 700k he earned last year really made a difference in his portfolio :rolleyes:

MWM
12-16-2004, 11:13 AM
Marty might be critical, but he doesn't hold a candle to a lot of folks here at Redszone. ;)

Look in the mirror my friend.

dougflynn23
12-16-2004, 11:27 AM
:santa: Marty has a history of ripping Barry. I recall at RedsFest after the 1999 season, somebody asked during the "Ask The Announcers" session if he thought Barry Larkin was a good team leader. Of course Chris Welsh and George Grande ran and hit under the table, I think Joe was asleep, but Marty jumped right in and said, "On the field, yes...in the clubhouse, in my opinion, no". Marty went on to give examples such as the ripping of the C off of the uniform, the criticism of the Bret Boone trade from the year before, etc. All while Barry was standing about 50 ft away listening.

I appreciate Marty, but I don't really see much point in the comments. I doubt anyone whose been paying attention lately was shocked by his comments on the issue.

Chip R
12-16-2004, 11:33 AM
Barry Larkin, as much as I love him as a player, is as much a self-aggrandizing twit as anybody in the game. But how does that excuse Marty for taking a potshot at someone who is no longer in the Reds' employ? Marty's not only self-aggrandizing, but under these circumstances, he comes off as pathetic.
I think I would agree with this - except the part about calling Barry a twit. It would have been one thing for Marty to say that Barry had a nice career here but he wasn't the same player he used to be and since the Reds wanted to go with Lopez it was time to part ways. I don't think many people would have a problem with that if he had left it at that. But ripping Larkin for being classless after he is gone is, in itself, classless. I know Marty and his acolytes will say that he has an opinion and he tells the truth and tells it like it is and what he said about Larkin was 100% truthful. That all may be correct but just because you have an opinion on a subject, doesn't mean you have to express it whenever one comes into your brain. Discretion would have been the better part of valor in this situation.

johngalt
12-16-2004, 12:07 PM
Sorry, but you obviously don't remember back then. If he had shopped himself to the highest bidder, he would've been the highest paid player.
He was just named MVP, played gold glove SS.. He was the ARod of the 1995 ERA.

I'm sorry, but there was no chance Larkin was going to get $8 or $9 million a year in 1995. He could have shopped around, but he was not going to get some astronomical contract.

I still don't see how being the highest-paid player at your position and one of the best paid players in the league puts a feather in your cap for taking less money to stay.

M2
12-16-2004, 12:17 PM
You mean like in 1992, 1993 and 1995 when Larkin had the 5th highest contract in the NL and was the highest paid shortstop in the league? I'm sure glad we have this myth about Larkin to fall back on everytime this discussion comes up.

Larkin was arb-eligible in '92 and, iirc, settled rather than going for every dollar he could have made. Can't remember what his status was in '93, though clearly he earned the raise. Plus, he should have been the highest-paid shortstop in the league in those days. He was the best shortstop on the planet at the time.

And he could have been the highest paid player in the history of baseball when he took that below-market contract after the '95 season. Probably could have been the first $10M-a-year player. He was that good and his position was that bereft of talent.



Where were you in September?

Provide me a quote where Barry ripped someone personally this September. My guess is you can't.

Jpup
12-16-2004, 12:30 PM
Provide me a quote where Barry ripped someone personally this September. My guess is you can't.

he should have.

johngalt
12-16-2004, 01:06 PM
Larkin was arb-eligible in '92 and, iirc, settled rather than going for every dollar he could have made. Can't remember what his status was in '93, though clearly he earned the raise. Plus, he should have been the highest-paid shortstop in the league in those days. He was the best shortstop on the planet at the time. And he could have been the highest paid player in the history of baseball when he took that below-market contract after the '95 season. Probably could have been the first $10M-a-year player. He was that good and his position was that bereft of talent.

Of course he deserved to be the highest-paid shortstop. I didn't say that he shouldn't have been. But it's laughable that revisionist history makes it out like Larkin turned down the chance to become the highest paid player in baseball history to sign an extension with the Reds.



Provide me a quote where Barry ripped someone personally this September. My guess is you can't.

Oct. 1:
"After Sunday's game, I'm going home," he said. "Nothing surprises me over the way things transpire around here. I don't understand the way they do the things they do. It always seems to come down this way.

"There are some guys in the clubhouse affected, too," he said. "Fans in all the cities on the last trip (Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Chicago) know of my situation and make a joke of it and that's unfortunate for the organization.

"I want to be proud of this organization, but its track record just hasn't been good," Larkin added. "My family is really upset about how things have gone here the last month. There are other guys in our clubhouse who are free agents, and they're frustrated. There are some good players who did some good things this year and they haven't heard anything from the organization."

No, he didn't say "John Allen is incompetent" or "Dan O'Brien is a moron" but that's just as bad.

M2
12-16-2004, 01:21 PM
But it's laughable that revisionist history makes it out like Larkin turned down the chance to become the highest paid player in baseball history to sign an extension with the Reds.

What's laughable is that you don't think a guy who was the runaway best player at the shortstop position, and coming off an MVP season, in a league where almost no team had a decent shortstop wouldn't have commanded huge money. What's laughable is you seemingly forgetting the MLBPA howling over Larkin's contract and rattling its sword that it should be voided because he was being so grossly underpaid.

What's laughable is knowing what happened the last time a guy considered heads and shoulders above every other SS in baseball hit the market and thinking something similar wouldn't have happened for Larkin.



No, he didn't say "John Allen is incompetent" or "Dan O'Brien is a moron" but that's just as bad.

That's right. He didn't say those things. And, IMO, it's not just as bad or anywhere close to just as bad.

johngalt
12-16-2004, 01:37 PM
What's laughable is that you don't think a guy who was the runaway best player at the shortstop position, and coming off an MVP season, in a league where almost no team had a decent shortstop wouldn't have commanded huge money. What's laughable is you seemingly forgetting the MLBPA howling over Larkin's contract and rattling its sword that it should be voided because he was being so grossly underpaid.

I just don't see him being grossly underpaid. In the free agent market, could he have had an offer of a million or so more? Probably. But he was simply not turning down a shot at some insane contract that some people feel he was.


What's laughable is knowing what happened the last time a guy considered heads and shoulders above every other SS in baseball hit the market and thinking something similar wouldn't have happened for Larkin.

Saying that since A-Rod got a huge contract that Larkin would have received the same is completely twisted logic. The type of grossly high contract A-Rod got is never going to be repeated again. The market of 2000 was a world unto itself.


That's right. He didn't say those things. And, IMO, it's not just as bad or anywhere close to just as bad.

You said Larkin didn't air dirty laundry or talk about things that should have been kept in house. You don't think that quote did just that? You don't think last year when he said Allen was running him out of town was airing dirty laundry? That's EXACTLY what Barry was doing.

Falls City Beer
12-16-2004, 02:07 PM
"- except the part about calling Barry a twit."


Well, there is a reason the word "shameless" is so often affixed to the word "self-promoter."

M2
12-16-2004, 02:15 PM
I just don't see him being grossly underpaid. In the free agent market, could he have had an offer of a million or so more? Probably. But he was simply not turning down a shot at some insane contract that some people feel he was.

Must be nice not to have to deal in the available facts. You can repeat the same thing as often as you like, but we know what other free agents were getting at that time, we know what Larkin's status was relative to his peers, we know what the level of need was at his position, we know what kind of ruckus got stirred up when he signed his deal. But you feel free to keep making your little baseless claim. The Braves, Mets, Dodgers, Rockies and Orioles would have been all over him. He passed on at least $10M, a legitimate shot to put another ring on his finger and the chance to put up a few great years in a national spotlight (which would have greased his HOF skids).



Saying that since A-Rod got a huge contract that Larkin would have received the same is completely twisted logic. The type of grossly high contract A-Rod got is never going to be repeated again. The market of 2000 was a world unto itself.

A-Rod got the contract he got because of what he was, a superhuman shortstop. Like A-Rod went through the top of the market in 2000, Larkin would have in 1995. Silly to insist otherwise. The market for the top shortstop is always huge and, unlike A-Rod, Larkin didn't have any peers at the time. Albert Belle cracked the $10M mark after 1996. Larkin, with the MVP under his wing and playing a much higher priority position, should have been close to that neighborhood.



You said Larkin didn't air dirty laundry or talk about things that should have been kept in house. You don't think that quote did just that? You don't think last year when he said Allen was running him out of town was airing dirty laundry? That's EXACTLY what Barry was doing.

I didn't see where Larkin ever mentioned Allen by name, you'll have to show me that quote. That's my point. He had some issues with the organization, but he never stooped to pointing a finger directly at someone and say, "This guy's a toad." That's a line he doesn't cross. Though I'll tell you what, I can see where you're coming from on this one. I don't agree. I think Larkin was trying to voice his dissatisfaction without adding a personal element to it, but I can see where a reasonable mind has a different take on it. It's a tough line Larkin was trying to walk.

Darth Brennaman
12-16-2004, 02:24 PM
Marty rules... Get over it!!!

iammrred
12-16-2004, 02:33 PM
A-Rod got the contract he got because of what he was, a superhuman shortstop. Like A-Rod went through the top of the market in 2000, Larkin would have in 1995. Silly to insist otherwise. The market for the top shortstop is always huge and, unlike A-Rod, Larkin didn't have any peers at the time. Albert Belle cracked the $10M mark after 1996. Larkin, with the MVP under his wing and playing a much higher priority position, should have been close to that neighborhood.

A-Rod's 1999 season (.285/.357/.586, 42 homers, 111 RBI, 110 runs) was far and away superior to Larkin's 1995 season (.319/.394/.492, 15 homer, 66 RBI, 98 runs), which makes it even harder to compare the two.

In fact, it would be easy argue that Larkin's '95 MVP is questionable. But, with Bichette playing in Colorado and Maddox being a pitcher, I guess things just fell into place for him.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 02:33 PM
I'm sorry, but there was no chance Larkin was going to get $8 or $9 million a year in 1995. He could have shopped around, but he was not going to get some astronomical contract.
.

Well, they did a poll of GMs that year (they used to do it every year), and asked if they could add any one player to their team, who would it be.. Lark won that, hands down.

He could've been the highest paid player if he had shopped himself. There's no doubt. I agree that 8-9 million is speculation, but that's what the press was speculating at the time. You can't deny that he left a lot of money on the table

MWM
12-16-2004, 02:35 PM
johngalt, so if you have such a problem with Barry's actions in supposedly airing dirty laundry, i suppose you're equally angry at Marty, correct?

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 02:36 PM
No, he didn't say "John Allen is incompetent" or "Dan O'Brien is a moron" but that's just as bad.

No he said that he doesn't understand why they did that, and it's effecting other players and his family. Not unreasonable for a guy that got just got fired, particularly when he was willing to work for a low salary.

If Allen had decided to fire Marty, with no negotiation, do you think Marty would've politely thanked the Reds for his career and been a class act? :MandJ:

johngalt
12-16-2004, 02:37 PM
I didn't see where Larkin ever mentioned Allen by name, you'll have to show me that quote. That's my point. He had some issues with the organization, but he never stooped to pointing a finger directly at someone and say, "This guy's a toad." That's a line he doesn't cross. Though I'll tell you what, I can see where you're coming from on this one. I don't agree. I think Larkin was trying to voice his dissatisfaction without adding a personal element to it, but I can see where a reasonable mind has a different take on it. It's a tough line Larkin was trying to walk.

He didn't mention anyone by name this year, but when things went down at the end of the 2003 season and Barry had a bunch of the reporters over at his apartment, he did mention John Allen by name then. I can't say that I really disagree with Larkin on a couple of matters, but he really is just as guilty when it comes to taking things out from behind the scenes.

johngalt
12-16-2004, 02:39 PM
johngalt, so if you have such a problem with Barry's actions in supposedly airing dirty laundry, i suppose you're equally angry at Marty, correct?

I'd pretty much lump Marty and Barry into the same boat. I think Barry played a hand in "starting" things moreso than Marty did here, but I think what Marty said about Larkin being classless was fairly classless as well.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 02:39 PM
Marty rules... Get over it!!!

Watch it there, Mr. Sith Lord :MandJ:

M2
12-16-2004, 02:40 PM
He didn't mention anyone by name this year, but when things went down at the end of the 2003 season and Barry had a bunch of the reporters over at his apartment, he did mention John Allen by name then.

Again, I will require the quote.

iammrred
12-16-2004, 02:42 PM
Not unreasonable for a guy that got just got fired, particularly when he was willing to work for a low salary.


... so long as he would be the starter. Which wasn't going to happen, at which point he decided he'd let all of those other teams clamoring for his starting services begin the bidding war. (Well, not so much of a war now, I suppose.)

I don't think johngalt is saying that Marty is a saint. But to believe that Barry handled the situation well and with his ego in check is a bit of a stretch.

johngalt
12-16-2004, 02:46 PM
Again, I will require the quote.

http://www.cincypost.com/2003/09/23/reds09-23-2003.html

"I think John Allen's running things, and he's running me out of town," Larkin said Monday night.

Now where's that quote about Larkin turning down untold millions?

westofyou
12-16-2004, 02:46 PM
In 100 years Marty will be remembered as a voice that reported the event, Red Barber, Waite Hoyt, Marty.

Barry was in the event, so even if "Marty rules" or if he's right or wrong his spotlight is a fleeting one at best.

Grab a Reds Media Guide in 10 years and see whose name is written in it more.

iammrred
12-16-2004, 02:47 PM
:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

RANDY IN INDY
12-16-2004, 03:02 PM
Look in the mirror my friend.

Hmmm, must have hit a nerve.

M2
12-16-2004, 03:05 PM
http://www.cincypost.com/2003/09/23/reds09-23-2003.html

"I think John Allen's running things, and he's running me out of town," Larkin said Monday night.

Now where's that quote about Larkin turning down untold millions?

Thanks for providing it. Larkin was wrong to say that.

Quote about untold millions? You realize other teams aren't allowed to offer contracts to players who don't enter free agency, right? That would preclude quotes. If you can't look at what players were getting in and around that period of time and measure what Larkin would have earned as perhaps the game's only plus shortstop that ain't my problem.

tsj017
12-16-2004, 03:30 PM
Barry Larkin always had the courtesy to keep that stuff out of the spotlight.

:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

Er, um . . . you're joking, right? You must be.

Larkin conducted his politics through the media. With regularity. Like clockwork.

Ray Knight. Jack McKeon. Natural turf at Cinergy. His contract. The direction of the front office. His position in the batting order. David Weathers. (Hey, I just realized--Larkin's gone, but David Weathers is back! :MandJ: Now THAT'S funny.) Usually done with a certain amount of whining.

I can't possibly see how complaining to the media every time you're not getting what you want is equal to "keeping that stuff out of the spotlight".

johngalt
12-16-2004, 03:33 PM
Quote about untold millions? You realize other teams aren't allowed to offer contracts to players who don't enter free agency, right? That would preclude quotes. If you can't look at what players were getting in and around that period of time and measure what Larkin would have earned as perhaps the game's only plus shortstop that ain't my problem.

Even Cal Ripken never sniffed anything north of $7 million, and he was arguably a better offensive shortstop than Larkin. There's no evidence to support the idea that Larkin would have gobbled up all of this money on the free agent market. When you look at salaries from that time, even an offensive second baseman like Alomar received a contract similar to Larkin's.

Where's the quotes where the player's union was "up in arms?" Where are the quotes of rumors about people who would be paying Larkin this money? Oh, that's right. I'm the only who's supposed to provide evidence in this discussion.

Unassisted
12-16-2004, 04:02 PM
I wonder if the root of this could be that Marty is still peeved that Larkin barged into the hallowed radio booth as part of the "classless stunt."

MWM
12-16-2004, 04:09 PM
I'll never understand it. Cincinnati has had the pleasure over the last 17 years, to witness first-hand one of the best shortstops and one of the most complete players of all-time play and be loyal to the city of Cincinnati. Yet instead of adoring this player like most other cities would, all some people seem to care about are a couple of unsubstantiated anecdotes that, even if true, really amount to NOTHING. I don't get it. If I ever had the opportunity to meet Barry, the first thing I'd do is apologize to him for some of the treatment he had to endure by some of the fans in Cincinnati.

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 04:10 PM
Marty just tells it the way he sees it, whether or not you agree or disagree...some people can't handle it

I'd rather have that than somebody who recites the "company line" and is a straight up blow hard for the team

It's like Paul Daugherty...his job is to stimulate conversation in his columns in the paper, but some people dislike him because they disagree with him....that's the idea, isn't it?

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 04:15 PM
Personally I've got no beef whatsoever with Marty taking issue with any Red or Reds under contract. But when it comes to people no longer employed by the Reds? Move on, Marty. Save that bile for this year...you're going to need it.


Somebody asked Marty the question....Marty gave an answer...what's the issue?

M2
12-16-2004, 04:16 PM
Even Cal Ripken never sniffed anything north of $7 million, and he was arguably a better offensive shortstop than Larkin. There's no evidence to support the idea that Larkin would have gobbled up all of this money on the free agent market. When you look at salaries from that time, even an offensive second baseman like Alomar received a contract similar to Larkin's.

Where's the quotes where the player's union was "up in arms?" Where are the quotes of rumors about people who would be paying Larkin this money? Oh, that's right. I'm the only who's supposed to provide evidence in this discussion.

Larkin annually dusted Ripken in BA, OB and SLG during thelate '80s and throught the '90s ('91 being the lone notable exception). He also fielded the position better and ran better. Ripken got himself the same per annum amount after a putrid '92 that Larkin got after an MVP '95. In fact Ripken was earning $1.5M more per year than Larkin in the late '90s and this was long after Ripken had been an average at best offensive player for half a decade and was on the verge of moving to 3B. So Barry Larkin in his prime was making $1.5M less than a guy well past his prime. You can be sure Ripken's contract would have been the measuring stick and if Larkin would have been paid for his value in relation to Ripken, he'd have gone through the roof. Had he made only 25% more than Ripken, he'd have made $8.5M a year instead of $5.3M. Cecil Fielder was making $9.24M a year in 1995 and 1996 and Larkin was hands down, going away a superior player.

As for quotes, when you find a good archive of Reds-related and baseball articles from 1995 that doesn't charge you money to read it, let me know. Otherwise you'll just have to look at where the market was, where Larkin was and recall the reports of the players union fuming over Larkin's decision not to set the market.

Cedric
12-16-2004, 04:17 PM
He's probably laugh at your comment and say something about how the fans in Cincinnati were great to him. You can say he was underpaid for years and therefore deserved the 27 mil over 3 years, but the bottom line is the fans of Cincinnati gave him that contract. You seem to be generalizing alot lately.

M2
12-16-2004, 04:17 PM
Somebody asked Marty the question....Marty gave an answer...what's the issue?

He's a twerp.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 04:20 PM
... so long as he would be the starter..

He was just benched for 6 weeks, yet still wanted to come back.

He's not stupid. Of course he knew that Lopez and Machado would be getting a lot of starts next year. DanO and Miley showed it to him. There was no denying it.

I've never seen a quote where he demanded to be a starter. Marty says it, but that doesn't make it so. But perhaps he said he "prefered" to start. Much like Pokey Reese said he "prefered" to start. Any ballplayer that doesn't prefer to start doesn't have much drive in him. I bet VanderWall even prefered to be a starter.

MWM
12-16-2004, 04:21 PM
Marty just tells it the way he sees it, whether or not you agree or disagree...some people can't handle it

If I hear this one more time, I think I'm going to :barf:

"Telling it like you see it" over the airwaves when a large contingent of the fanbase if listening is not a virtue to be praised. It's personal for marty and he has a mic. Going public and manipulating his position for personal vendettas is unprofessional and not something we should be praising. And maybe I have a problem with "how he see's it." If marty had any balls, he'd rip the front office and John Allen.

And spare me the "Can't handle it" nonsense. Just because I don't like what he's saying doesn't mean "I can't handle it." That's one of the most played out cliches I've ever heard. I am a big boy. I can handle it. Maybe it's YOU who can't handle criticism of the ever so deified Marty Brenneman. Some people are so far up this guy's rear end, they "can't handle" that he's not the virtuous public servant you think he is. Let's be realistic, marty Brenneman sits behind a mic and tells us what's going on in a baseball game. He's exceptional at it, I'll give him that. He does play by play as well as anyone I've ever heard. But that's all he does.

Again, people ADORE Marty Brenneman but loathe Barry Larkin. I'll go to my grave without a clue as to why some people are adored and others loathed. Makes no rational sense.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 04:22 PM
I'll never understand it. Cincinnati has had the pleasure over the last 17 years, to witness first-hand one of the best shortstops and one of the most complete players of all-time play and be loyal to the city of Cincinnati. .

Well, maybe after a few years of a revolving door of Lopez, Machado, etc. some fans will appreciate what Lark did.

Cedric
12-16-2004, 04:23 PM
Or maybe we just agree with him? I honestly think you can't understand how anyone in this world could EVER disagree with you on a subject, I swear to god that is how you sound. People disagree with you, get over it.

lollipopcurve
12-16-2004, 04:24 PM
Whether or not Larkin was "grossly" underpaid for a time is purely a matter of speculation, given we don't know what he could have gotten on the open market.
Whether or not he was grossly overpaid on a 3-year, 27 million contract is not a matter of speculation. It's fact.

I loved Larkin as a player. As a leader, he was a mixed bag. Taking the 'C' off his uniform was bush. I didn't like a lot of his public griping about the team's direction. When you're a team leader, you can handle that stuff behind closed doors -- just ask for a meeting, and request a trade. But the help he gave young players, and his ability to relate to Spanish-speaking players, was fantastic.

Barry never really accepted that management is entitled to run a team the way they want to. It's their money. But his big-fish-in-a-little-pond mentality, enabled by Bowden, I think, led him to think he should have a voice, when he felt like it, in matters like the payroll and trades. His declaration that he would like to move into the FO someday was tinged with absurdity, I always felt, because he had shown so little understanding of the FO perspective.

Again -- I loved watching the guy play. And that's what matters most to me as a fan. But his "classy" persona belied a pretty manipulative personality, in my opinion.

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 04:25 PM
For all the griping, this thread is on it's 5th page

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 04:25 PM
I'd rather have that than somebody who recites the "company line" and is a straight up blow hard for the team


Marty does parrot the party line. He's never disagreed with anything Allen/Lindner have done. He knows who's paying his check. Remember his crusade to convince the fans that they should not expect Jr to come here?

He knows the players, Bob Boone, etc are fair game and bounces on them.

Now, I don't expect Marty to be anything more than a puppet for Allen (and that includes slamming Lark at every opportunity), but let's not pretend that Marty is completely impartial. His lips are firmly planted on Allen's rearend.

MWM
12-16-2004, 04:26 PM
Or maybe we just agree with him? I honestly think you can't understand how anyone in this world could EVER disagree with you on a subject, I swear to god that is how you sound. People disagree with you, get over it.

Go back and re-read your own comments and tell me how you're any different Mr. pot.

Cedric
12-16-2004, 04:28 PM
You've mentioned countless times on this post that anyone that disagrees with you must be either brainwashed or firmly up Marty's ass. Since other people took the side you weren't on it wasn't because they had a different view than you, it was because we were stupid and gullible.

Chip R
12-16-2004, 04:29 PM
Marty does parrot the party line. He's never disagreed with anything Allen/Lindner have done. He knows who's paying his check. Remember his crusade to convince the fans that they should not expect Jr to come here?
Marge used to sign his check too and I don't recall him ever being shy about criticizing her. The last few years of JimBo's tenure he would criticize about every move he made. He also used to get into it with D*ck W*gner. Now all of a sudden he's a puppet and a yes man? Doesn't wash.

Cedric
12-16-2004, 04:30 PM
It's not possible that Marty has an opinion that differs from the common views on this board. If you disagree with their opinion it's because you are either brainwashed or a yes man. How they came to this conclusion on everybody is beyond me.\
Maybe Marty really likes John Allen and thinks he is doing a good job? He's probably wrong, but why is it such a sure thing he is kissing ass? Like Chip said the guy hasn't shown in the past that quality.

MWM
12-16-2004, 04:39 PM
Nope, just offering an opinion based on observation. I lived in Cincinnati for 25 years and I witnessed first-hand just how far up Marty's ass some folks are. I know that Marty has always promoted his "tell it like it is" brand. So when he comes out and says these types of things that seem to be very personal for him and rips a guy like Larkin over the public airways and people's first reaction is to defend Marty as "call's it llike he sees it", then yes, it appears to me that some have bought the Marty Brenneman image he's been promoting for a couple of decades.

Marty's defenders will never, EVER consider that he's in the wrong and that what he's doing is unprofessional. NO WAY, it's ALWAYS about Marty "calling it like he sees it". So yes, the evidence is there for me to offer this opinion. I'm sorry if you feel personally indicted. I never made accusations for anyone personally, but I have little doubt that plenty of people are buying what Marty is selling ans has been selling successfully in this thread.

Evidence: the first thing said after someone dared question the omniscient Marty Brenneman was "he just doesn't sugarcoat". I'd say there's a lot of validity to my opinion in this case. I'm sure there are some who just agree with Marty in this case, but there's also plenty of people not capable getting past their idolization of Marty. those are the people I'm talking about.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 04:40 PM
Marge used to sign his check too and I don't recall him ever being shy about criticizing her. The last few years of JimBo's tenure he would criticize about every move he made. He also used to get into it with D*ck W*gner. Now all of a sudden he's a puppet and a yes man? Doesn't wash.

Allen didn't care if Jimbo got criticized. Remember, Allen wanted Bowden out.
Marty was doing Allen a favor by turning the Brennamen-lemmings against Bowden. And actually, Marty did the bulk of his Bowden bashing after Bowden left.

Sorry, I can't recall Marty ever criticizing Marge until it was certain that Marge was out. Maybe you're right, but I can't ever recall it.

He has NEVER said anything bad about Lindner/Allen. Nothing but sunshine about them.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 04:44 PM
Maybe Marty really likes John Allen and thinks he is doing a good job? He's probably wrong, but why is it such a sure thing he is kissing ass? .

Allen has no tolerance for people not towing the line. Remember how Bowden almost got fired for critcizing Doc Hollywood (a revenue generator)? Remember how Allen held a grudge against McKeon for demanding a raise after winning manager of the year?

That's why Allen likes Miley and DanO. They barely have a pulse, don't make any waves. You can bet if Marty started laying it on Allen, Marty would be gone the next day.

MArty is smart in that regard. I'm not saying he's wrong for kissing Allen. Nothing wrong with keeping your job secure. But let's not pretend that Marty is some impartial voice or font of wisdom.

He's a bitter old man that holds grudges for a long time. Look at how it burned him when the Reds got Jr. He takes his digs at Jr whenever he can, ever since Jr arrived.

M2
12-16-2004, 04:45 PM
Again -- I loved watching the guy play. And that's what matters most to me as a fan. But his "classy" persona belied a pretty manipulative personality, in my opinion.

Pretend you care about your job, maybe you do in which case you don't have to pretend. Anyway, say you're pouring your heart and soul into what you do in order to make your company a winner in a highly competitive business. You're acknowledged as the absolute best at what you do, something that only a select few have ever been able to do as well as you in the history of your industry. I don't know where you work or what you do, but employees like that tend to get a say in how the company operates. It's standard operating procedure that star performers and senior leadership in any endeavor have a significant influence over companywide decisions.

Now say you've hit the absolute pinnacle of your profession where you've taken your company right to the top of the industry. And now you've got the option of staying for less money or going for a huge payday. You stay because certain representations are made that because you're taking less money that will help the company keep itself on top. Yet, almost the second after you make that commitment, the company begins to dismantle and enter into a reorganization phase. You're performing as well as ever, but your effort and commitment is being wasted. You were sold an empty bill of goods. Now who's been manipulated?

johngalt
12-16-2004, 04:48 PM
He was just benched for 6 weeks, yet still wanted to come back.

He's not stupid. Of course he knew that Lopez and Machado would be getting a lot of starts next year. DanO and Miley showed it to him. There was no denying it.

I've never seen a quote where he demanded to be a starter. Marty says it, but that doesn't make it so. But perhaps he said he "prefered" to start. Much like Pokey Reese said he "prefered" to start. Any ballplayer that doesn't prefer to start doesn't have much drive in him. I bet VanderWall even prefered to be a starter.

From the Post Oct. 13....

If Larkin knew the Reds were committed to starting Lopez and Machado every day at shortstop next season, could he play an entire year in the same role he held this September?

"No, I couldn't," Larkin said, "because I think once I started playing that the manager would see that I could make more contributions to the team than that. If I get a chance to go out there and play, with my track record when I'm healthy, everybody knows that I can play. So, no, I couldn't see myself in that position, especially in Cincinnati."

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 04:48 PM
He's a bitter old man that holds grudges for a long time. Look at how it burned him when the Reds got Jr. He takes his digs at Jr whenever he can, ever since Jr arrived.

When? When Junior doesn't run out first base? When Junior isn't running to try to make a ground ball a single? When he doesn't run full force to catch a fly ball?

Why shouldn't he...the money Junior makes, you'd expect him to do those things - I like Junior, but I don't like when he occasionally "slacks off" in the field

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 04:49 PM
From the Post Oct. 13....

If Larkin knew the Reds were committed to starting Lopez and Machado every day at shortstop next season, could he play an entire year in the same role he held this September?

"No, I couldn't," Larkin said, "because I think once I started playing that the manager would see that I could make more contributions to the team than that. If I get a chance to go out there and play, with my track record when I'm healthy, everybody knows that I can play. So, no, I couldn't see myself in that position, especially in Cincinnati."

But he told Bowden he'd be ok with being a utility guy in Washington

westofyou
12-16-2004, 04:50 PM
Why shouldn't he...the money Junior makes, you'd expect him to do those things

Ummm.... because his legs are made out of paper mache and spit?

johngalt
12-16-2004, 04:50 PM
But he told Bowden he'd be ok with being a utility guy in Washington

He has told other teams that, but he was clear he did not want to be a utility guy here.

M2
12-16-2004, 04:50 PM
He's a bitter old man that holds grudges for a long time. Look at how it burned him when the Reds got Jr. He takes his digs at Jr whenever he can, ever since Jr arrived.

Jr. was stealing Marty's spotlight. He needed to be put in his place.

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 04:52 PM
He has told other teams that, but he was clear he did not want to be a utility guy here.

I'm a big Larkin fan...but that is why he is no longer here

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 04:55 PM
Marty's comments did surprise me though

johngalt
12-16-2004, 04:56 PM
I'm a big Larkin fan...but that is why he is no longer here

I agree. I think if he could have accepted a role playing short, second, third, etc., he might have been alright baseball wise to keep around.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 04:56 PM
From the Post Oct. 13....

If Larkin knew the Reds were committed to starting Lopez and Machado every day at shortstop next season, could he play an entire year in the same role he held this September?

"No, I couldn't," Larkin said, "because I think once I started playing that the manager would see that I could make more contributions to the team than that. If I get a chance to go out there and play, with my track record when I'm healthy, everybody knows that I can play. So, no, I couldn't see myself in that position, especially in Cincinnati."

So he wants a chance to compete for playing time against Machado/Lopez.
What's wrong with that? If he's only going to be a RH pinch hitter, he might as well retire.

It seems like his beef was that he would never start (ie. playing Machado/Lopez EVERY day).

And guess what? That doesn't make him a bad person. He wanted a shot to compete for the starting job. He was just named to the All Star team. Why is that so bad?

You were right, I missed that quote. Lark did want a chance to play everyday. But why does that suddenly make him some kind of villian? Why is Marty laughing that he's willing to be a reserve on another team? Is the guy allowed to change is mind? I guess not.

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 04:58 PM
I agree. I think if he could have accepted a role playing short, second, third, etc., he might have been alright baseball wise to keep around.

No, I think Allen wanted him gone. That was the whole point about "waiting until after the season to discuss contracts".

Allen wanted him gone last year and in 2000. Allen wasn't going to screw it up a third time.

Note, I'm not disagreeing with your opinion.. I'm just saying that even if Lark went to Allen, agreed to play for the minimum, and do whatever the team wanted, he'd still be gone.

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 04:59 PM
There may be something to that

REDREAD
12-16-2004, 05:00 PM
Jr. was stealing Marty's spotlight. He needed to be put in his place.

Exactly, Marty thinks HE is the Cincinnati Reds :rolleyes: <- I'm rolling eyes at marty, not M2

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 05:03 PM
Exactly, Marty thinks HE is the Cincinnati Reds :rolleyes: <- I'm rolling eyes at marty, not M2

That's gotta be it...we've figured it out :dflynn:

iammrred
12-16-2004, 05:13 PM
Nope, just offering an opinion based on observation. I lived in Cincinnati for 25 years and I witnessed first-hand just how far up Marty's ass some folks are. I know that Marty has always promoted his "tell it like it is" brand. So when he comes out and says these types of things that seem to be very personal for him and rips a guy like Larkin over the public airways and people's first reaction is to defend Marty as "call's it llike he sees it", then yes, it appears to me that some have bought the Marty Brenneman image he's been promoting for a couple of decades.

Marty's defenders will never, EVER consider that he's in the wrong and that what he's doing is unprofessional. NO WAY, it's ALWAYS about Marty "calling it like he sees it". So yes, the evidence is there for me to offer this opinion. I'm sorry if you feel personally indicted. I never made accusations for anyone personally, but I have little doubt that plenty of people are buying what Marty is selling ans has been selling successfully in this thread.

Evidence: the first thing said after someone dared question the omniscient Marty Brenneman was "he just doesn't sugarcoat". I'd say there's a lot of validity to my opinion in this case. I'm sure there are some who just agree with Marty in this case, but there's also plenty of people not capable getting past their idolization of Marty. those are the people I'm talking about.

So, they're just like the people who blindly idolize Larkin?

That could explain why we're now on Page 6.

RANDY IN INDY
12-16-2004, 05:18 PM
I like all the "superior intelligence" on this thread. :MandJ:

lollipopcurve
12-16-2004, 05:20 PM
M2,
I don't for a second believe that management made promises to Larkin that they turned around and broke. Say they said, "We'll be competitive." How does Larkin read that? "We'll spend $80 million and get at least 1 top FA pitcher?" If that's how he reads it, he's pretty out of touch with the reality of how the Reds have always operated. Fact is, you have no idea what Larkin was told.
You ask other posters to supply quotes in order to prove to you that someone said something. Yet you permit yourself to attribute to the front office "certain representations" that you remember Larkin said they said? Not buying it, and buying the way you're selling it.

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 05:21 PM
I like all the superior intelligence on this thread. :MandJ:

I am the only one who fits into that category...thank you very much :p: :D :p:

RANDY IN INDY
12-16-2004, 05:22 PM
You're more than welcome. :D :MandJ:

Fil3232
12-16-2004, 05:24 PM
Jr. was stealing Marty's spotlight. He needed to be put in his place.

By this logic, why hasn't Marty ever taken personal digs at Sean Casey? Casey, whether right or not, is probably the face of this organization now, and has been the past couple years with the injuries to Larkin and KGJ. Maybe we should expect an all out assault once Casey gets that 'C' on his jersey. Please.

westofyou
12-16-2004, 05:26 PM
By this logic, why hasn't Marty ever taken personal digs at Sean Casey? Casey, whether right or not, is probably the face of this organization now, and has been the past couple years with the injuries to Larkin and KGJ. Maybe we should expect an all out assault once Casey gets that 'C' on his jersey. Please.

I betcha no one gets the "C" it's an antiqueted notion in baseball. Aside from Jeter (who was named by George) who else is a Captain in the sport?

RANDY IN INDY
12-16-2004, 05:31 PM
I betcha no one gets the "C" it's an antiqueted notion in baseball. Aside from Jeter (who was named by George) who else is a Captain in the sport?

Tend to agree, woy. I don't think they will throw that "C" around much anymore. Someone is really going to have to earn it before it gets sewn on a jersey again. This front office is not going to throw any more power to a player than it has to. This front office needs no more PR disasters looming on the near horizon.

M2
12-16-2004, 05:43 PM
M2,
I don't for a second believe that management made promises to Larkin that they turned around and broke. Say they said, "We'll be competitive." How does Larkin read that? "We'll spend $80 million and get at least 1 top FA pitcher?" If that's how he reads it, he's pretty out of touch with the reality of how the Reds have always operated. Fact is, you have no idea what Larkin was told.

Man, I wish there were good databases back to 1995. Though, lacking them, there's nothing to stop you from reinventing history I suppose.

And if the Reds said, "We'll be competitive," then I think Larkin could reasonably expect the team not to slash payroll and go through a rebuilding process. He especially could expect this if the team asked him to take less money so that it had the cash to assemble more talent around him so that it could keep a championship competitor on the field, which surely it did.

BTW, the Reds had one of the highest payrolls in baseball in the early and mid 90s. It would be out of touch with reality to insist the Reds have always operated like a pauper franchise in regards to major league payroll when during the Marge regime it spent top dollar to assemble a major league club. She short-shrift other areas to do it, but a healthy payroll (and winning baseball) had been a consistent feature of Cincinnati Reds baseball for Larkin's who career until he signed that deal after 1995.

M2
12-16-2004, 05:49 PM
By this logic, why hasn't Marty ever taken personal digs at Sean Casey? Casey, whether right or not, is probably the face of this organization now, and has been the past couple years with the injuries to Larkin and KGJ. Maybe we should expect an all out assault once Casey gets that 'C' on his jersey. Please.

I don't think Marty perceives Sean as a good enough ballplayer to threaten his status. Casey's hardly a superstar in terms of the national picture. Be interesting to see how he treats Dunn if the kid continues to wreck the ball. IMO, Marty spends a whole lot of time barking about Dunn doesn't do and glosses over the larger pile of things he does well (often exceptionally well).

Falls City Beer
12-16-2004, 05:52 PM
"If I hear this one more time, I think I'm going to"

Hey, it's this "candor" that got W elected...this "truth-tellin'" is at the core of all things libertarian and red state. In short, the good ole boy weltanshuang.

"Welp, the way Ah seeyit..."

Guess what Marty, you don't see it the way I do; don't pretend to speak for "me."

MWM
12-16-2004, 05:57 PM
I don't think Marty perceives Sean as a good enough ballplayer to threaten his status. Casey's hardly a superstar in terms of the national picture. Be interesting to see how he treats Dunn if the kid continues to wreck the ball. IMO, Marty spends a whole lot of time barking about Dunn doesn't do and glosses over the larger pile of things he does well (often exceptionally well).

I'd add to that that he knows he has no chance to poison the Sean Casey waters. Not even Marty Brenneman could convince someone not to like Sean Casey. That would be a losing battle and he knows it would actually harm his persona if he tried. Same with Peter Edward Rose.

Good point on Dunn. Actually, Marty's already been banging the "too many strike out" and "RISP" drum. He's already been quite hard on Adam Dunn.

Matt700wlw
12-16-2004, 06:14 PM
I'd add to that that he knows he has no chance to poison the Sean Casey waters. Not even Marty Brenneman could convince someone not to like Sean Casey. That would be a losing battle and he knows it would actually harm his persona if he tried. Same with Peter Edward Rose.

Good point on Dunn. Actually, Marty's already been banging the "too many strike out" and "RISP" drum. He's already been quite hard on Adam Dunn.


He does have too many strike outs and doesn't get enough hits with RISP....not saying he's a bad player, but in order to be a great player, he has to work on those things

westofyou
12-16-2004, 06:22 PM
He does have too many strike outs and doesn't get enough hits with RISP....not saying he's a bad player, but in order to be a great player, he has to work on those things

gO rEdz

Cedric
12-16-2004, 06:26 PM
Adam Dunn is the best player on the Reds. But if you even suggest that he has even the slightest flaw expect to get ripped here as someone so ignorant you can't even spell. I don't quite understand how some posters are able to mock and ridicule others because they disagree with them and continously get away with it. I know for a fact it gives the board a bad name. If you guys want this to be a place where only a certain few of you have an opinion you are well on the way there.

MWM
12-16-2004, 06:38 PM
Adam Dunn is the best player on the Reds. But if you even suggest that he has even the slightest flaw expect to get ripped here as someone so ignorant you can't even spell.

Nice straw man there Ced. When was the last time that anyone just came on here and "suggested that Adam Dunn has the slightest flaw in his game." When people come on here ragging on Dunn it's a lot more than suggesting he has some flaws and you know it. And I'm one of Dunn's biggest supporters and even I realize he has some flaws and has plenty of room for improvement. And pretty much all his supporters feel the same way.

But when people come on here calling the guy a big stiff and saying we should get rid of the guy for any number of reasons, you better believe we're going to do our best to debunk misconceptions. Why is that such a bad thing?


I don't quite understand how some posters are able to mock and ridicule others because they disagree with them and continously get away with it.

I don't get you today Ced. What's the point of this board if you can't debate with somone and disagree with them. Rarely does anyone who comes here and respetfully offers and opinion get moked. Back off the drama, man. When someone comes on here and offers opinions that differ from ours, what are we supposed to do? Say nothing? No, we try to offer OUR viewpoint that's different that theirs. That's why this board exists. Now when someone comes on here with a clear agenda and start offering up ridiculous claims not based in reality (see our new friend in the K thread), the yes, they don't always get treated with a warm welcome. So what.


I know for a fact it gives the board a bad name.

name me a better Reds board ANYWHERE.



If you guys want this to be a place where only a certain few of you have an opinion you are well on the way there.

Again with the drama. There's no shortage of opinions here and you know it. There's disagreements all over the place. Boards like these are for debating. Sometimes debating gets a little heated. If you don't like it, maybe you should find somewhere else to go. But don't make it out to be a place where different opinions aren't welcome because you know better.

M2
12-16-2004, 06:39 PM
If you guys want this to be a place where only a certain few of you have an opinion you are well on the way there.

Yeah, this place is a classic example of lock-step thinking. No one ever disagrees about anything.

Cedric
12-16-2004, 06:41 PM
I'm not talking about you at all with that last post and i'm not saying it's a bad board. But I think Matt was making a point that is well documented and I don't think he deserved the response he got. That's not debate, that's mocking one's opinion. I can't judge intent here, it might just have been a joke and I missed it. But it surely looked to me like the poster was saying the point was so ignorant that it was worthy of a five year old response like "gO ReDZ.

Let me make this clear because I guess I didn't. I have absolutely no problem with the debate on this thread and everything else on the board. That isn't what i'm talking about, i'm talking about mocking posts and the like.

westofyou
12-16-2004, 06:44 PM
I'm not talking about you at all with that last post and i'm not saying it's a bad board. But I think Matt was making a point that is well documented and I don't think he deserved the response he got. That's not debate, that's mocking one's opinion. I can't judge intent here, it might just have been a joke and I missed it. But it surely looked to me like the poster was saying the point was so ignorant that it was worthy of a five year old response like "gO ReDZ.

Let me make this clear because I guess I didn't. I have absolutely no problem with the debate on this thread and everything else on the board. That isn't what i'm talking about, i'm talking about mocking posts and the like.

It was not a dig at Matt, it was just a juxtaposition of where the thread was going once that avenue was traversed.

Cedric
12-16-2004, 06:46 PM
Allright, apologies.

MWM
12-16-2004, 06:49 PM
Also, telling somone who disagrees with Marty that they "just can't handle the truth" is a dig in its own right.

M2
12-16-2004, 06:58 PM
Also, telling somone who disagrees with Marty that they "just can't handle the truth" is a dig in its own right.

You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has broadcast booths. And those broadcast booths have to be guarded by men with egos. Who's gonna do it? You? You, MWM? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Barry Larkin and you curse the Reds. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Larkin's exit, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in that broadcast booth. You need me in that broadcast booth.

We use words like play-by-play, promo, segue...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent blathering about something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very broadcast I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a microphone and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

MWM
12-16-2004, 07:01 PM
OH MY FREAKING GAWD!!!!!!!!!

:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

I haven't laughed so hard and for so long in years. That's easily the funniest thing I've read on here......maybe ever.

M2
12-16-2004, 07:04 PM
OH MY FREAKING GAWD!!!!!!!!!

:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

I haven't laughed so hard and for so long in years. That's easily the funniest thing I've read on here......maybe ever.

Glad you liked.

Though I should have continued until he admits ordering the Code Red on Larkin.

ODERED
12-16-2004, 07:20 PM
Yeah, this place is a classic example of lock-step thinking. No one ever disagrees about anything.

I don't think it's so much about disagreeing, as it is about the ones here that he feels try to discourage certain posters from saying anything that might be considered disagreeable.
;)

Raisor
12-16-2004, 07:26 PM
Glad you liked.

Though I should have continued until he admits ordering the Code Red on Larkin.


You just (HACKED) off the wrong announcer!

Ga_Red
12-16-2004, 07:32 PM
2/09/07

redsfan30
12-16-2004, 08:00 PM
I have a question for M2 and MWM....

It seems that you are against Marty giving opinions unless they are positive towards the club. It seems that you are against him speaking his mind about everyone except Lindner and Allen. Let me first ask you this....have you ever not liked a situation, but you knew not to cross the line? Say you totally disagree with something going on at work. You can talk bad about just about everyone involved but your boss because that is crossing the line. See where I'm going with that?

Secondly, do you want Marty to sit back, call the game and be a cheerleader? Because if you do, then why not bring Chip Carey and Steve Stone in? Oh wait, because they're not being objective, they're kissing the team's ass. I'd be willing to bet that if we had somebody like that in here, you'd complain about that. You're not happy with Marty, I bet you'd not be happy about a cheerleader....what do you want?

I guess I don't understand why you dislike him so much. He gives praise where praise is due and he criticized where criticism is due and he does it for both sides. The past couple years, there hasn't been much to praise in Reds Land. I go back to my earlier question that never got answered...do you want him to sugar coat things just because there is a microphone in front of his face?

MWM
12-16-2004, 08:01 PM
redsfan30, respectfully, if that's your impression of my opinion, then you need to go back and re-read the thread because you're not even close. So I'm going to pass on responding.

redsfan30
12-16-2004, 08:04 PM
redsfan30, respectfully, if that's your impression of my opinion, then you need to go back and re-read the thread because you're not even close. So I'm going to pass on responding.
Then tell me what your stance is please....I read through the first couple pages and got tired of reading all the babling crap so I quit. That's just the opinion I formed from earlier in the thread. Again, if it's not right please correct me.

M2
12-16-2004, 08:37 PM
rf30, I wasn't raised on Marty and, frankly, I think he's a horrible announcer. I don't think he provides valuable insight or analysis, too often during games he loses track of what's happening on the field. What bugs me about his critiques of the team is that they're shallow and, IMO, only serve to establish his grumpy announcer persona.

Maybe he was something different back in the day. I wouldn't know. I lived elsewhere and it was rare that I heard a Reds broadcast. I've spent my life living in large media markets on the east coast and I have NEVER heard another game announcer get personal in the nasty way Marty does.

redsfan30
12-16-2004, 08:51 PM
rf30, I wasn't raised on Marty and, frankly, I think he's a horrible announcer. I don't think he provides valuable insight or analysis, too often during games he loses track of what's happening on the field. What bugs me about his critiques of the team is that they're shallow and, IMO, only serve to establish his grumpy announcer persona.

Maybe he was something different back in the day. I wouldn't know. I lived elsewhere and it was rare that I heard a Reds broadcast. I've spent my life living in large media markets on the east coast and I have NEVER heard another game announcer get personal in the nasty way Marty does.
I respect your opinion, but strongly disagree. I think Marty is far from a horrible announcer. I think he is one of the smoothest out there as far as play by play is concerned. As far as providing valuable insight to the game, I think that's more the color man's job that the play by play. Color analysts are usually former players who have insight on the game that others don't. That's why Marty and Joe work so well together...he played the game and knew what they were going through. There's nothing wrong with telling a joke now and then or talking about golf or tomatoes during the game. It's part of the entertainment value, and that's what baseball is...entertainment. There isn't a single announcer out there who doens't mix in some off topic stuff now and then. He never lets it get in the way of the game either. If he did, I'd have a problem with it, but he doesn't more times than he does.

His criticisms of the team are harsh because more often than not they need to be. He is there to call a game, just like you want him to be. When he sees a mental mistake, a lack of effort or just plain bad baseball, it's his job to talk about it. He's not going to sugar coat some who gets thrown out at second after jogging out of the box or someone lets a fly ball drop because he is loafing. That is not doing your job.

Alot of what he says I don't think is personal (a few exeptions obviously). I think he just gives his opinion on things and alot of people percieve that as being mean and nasty.

M2
12-16-2004, 08:59 PM
Marty's got a nice voice. When he does play-by-play, and that's intermittent, he's fine.

I find nothing else he does entertaining or insightful.

redsfanmia
12-16-2004, 09:05 PM
I like the way Marty calls the games and i think he and Joe had great chemistry. But i think it apparant that the guy loves himself, which is ok but i dont want to hear it every damn game. His ego just gets in the way and he runs his mouth too much, it just gets old.

4256 Hits
12-16-2004, 09:48 PM
He has told other teams that, but he was clear he did not want to be a utility guy here.

I think it was more that he couldn't understand that he was behind Marchado who I think Barry's see's can barely hit his way out of a paper bag.

He was also very complentary toward Lopez and realized that he could be the future Reds SS. As Lopez alway had great praise for all the help that Larkin gave him.

One thing we know for sure is that he was never asked to come back as a bench player SO we don't know if Larkin would have came back to Cincy as a back-up.

IMO Allen and DanO would not have brought him back regardless of what Larkin said, did or wanted to play.

johngalt
12-16-2004, 09:56 PM
You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has broadcast booths. And those broadcast booths have to be guarded by men with egos. Who's gonna do it? You? You, MWM? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Barry Larkin and you curse the Reds. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Larkin's exit, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in that broadcast booth. You need me in that broadcast booth.

We use words like play-by-play, promo, segue...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent blathering about something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very broadcast I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a microphone and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

M2.....we may disagree on the discussion in this thread, but that was pretty damn funny. :)

pedro
12-16-2004, 10:03 PM
Glad you liked.

Though I should have continued until he admits ordering the Code Red on Larkin.


beautiful. :MandJ:

KronoRed
12-16-2004, 11:11 PM
You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has broadcast booths. And those broadcast booths have to be guarded by men with egos. Who's gonna do it? You? You, MWM? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Barry Larkin and you curse the Reds. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Larkin's exit, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in that broadcast booth. You need me in that broadcast booth.

We use words like play-by-play, promo, segue...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent blathering about something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very broadcast I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a microphone and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!


Brilliant! absolutely brilliant :MandJ: :MandJ:

TeamCasey
12-17-2004, 07:06 AM
:) M2 :MandJ:

zombie-a-go-go
12-17-2004, 08:35 AM
I betcha no one gets the "C" it's an antiqueted notion in baseball. Aside from Jeter (who was named by George) who else is a Captain in the sport?

A-Rod was... for a week. :MandJ:

GAC
12-17-2004, 09:23 AM
Marty is a jerk. It's classless to slam Larkin after he left.

But it was OK for Larkin, over the last several years, while being paid darn good money, to pull shenanigans and stunts to try embarass and slam this orgainzation? And some of his and Jr's antics together were numerous.

I agree with most everything Marty stated.

The caller asked Marty a question, and as Marty said... did he want the PC version, or how he really felt about this situation? If you don't want someone's honest opinion, regardless who it may be, then don't ask it.

I guess some wanted the PC version. ;)

Redsland
12-17-2004, 10:11 AM
M2,

:clap: :rotflmao: :MandJ: :rotflmao: :clap:

Falls City Beer
12-17-2004, 10:17 AM
"I guess some wanted the PC version."

Is it "PC" to say, "I don't want to comment on something that's in the past and doesn't involve the current state of the Reds"?

Seems to me that that's a good personal policy to have. Not talking about things that aren't germane to the current state of the team; otherwise, you look like Marty does--a bitter jilted lover who can't stop talking about an ex. Bad form, it's embarrassing.

RedsBaron
12-17-2004, 10:33 AM
You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has broadcast booths. And those broadcast booths have to be guarded by men with egos. Who's gonna do it? You? You, MWM? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Barry Larkin and you curse the Reds. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Larkin's exit, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in that broadcast booth. You need me in that broadcast booth.

We use words like play-by-play, promo, segue...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent blathering about something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very broadcast I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a microphone and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

Ron Madden
12-18-2004, 04:52 AM
I like Marty doing Play By Play.
I just wish he would stick to the game.

Seems like since he made HOF he'd
rather be anywhere than callin' the game.