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WVRed
12-18-2004, 08:13 PM
saw it on ESPNNews, wow :eek:

Mulder to StL for Kiko Calero, Dan Haren, and that catching prospect thats supposed to be good(Barton?). Beane must be really missing Depodestas laptop right now...

jrdunnit
12-18-2004, 08:13 PM
espn gammons reports cards get mulder from a's for haran,colero and another.guess it's a done deal

pedro
12-18-2004, 08:15 PM
Mulder to St. Louis
The Big Three is now down to one. ESPN's Peter Gammons reports A's ace Mark Mulder has been traded to the Cardinals for pitchers Danny Haren, Kiki Calero and catcher Daric Barton.

WVRed
12-18-2004, 08:15 PM
dupe

redsfan30
12-18-2004, 08:15 PM
Ouch.

jrdunnit
12-18-2004, 08:17 PM
big 3 down to big one!!!!!!!!!reckon reds could get zito now since beane is unloading. :MandJ:

Phhhl
12-18-2004, 08:17 PM
Good Lord. Why? What the heck is Beane doing? I've seen Haren pitch, and his stuff projects as no better than a number 3 or 4. I guess when they write a book about you, you become fearless. This was a horrible deal for Oakland.

pedro
12-18-2004, 08:18 PM
You have to admire Beane, makes sense to reload all at once. I wouldn't be surprised to see him trade zito now too.

they must really like barton.

RFS62
12-18-2004, 08:19 PM
Barton is a stud, but wasn't totally sold on staying a catcher.

Some trade.

Larkin Fan
12-18-2004, 08:20 PM
This one hurts.

Awesome trade for the Cards though.

jrdunnit
12-18-2004, 08:22 PM
mulder is good but cards have took a big hit too:
williams matheny kline renteria womack

cincinnati chili
12-18-2004, 08:28 PM
Good Lord. Why? What the heck is Beane doing? I've seen Haren pitch, and his stuff projects as no better than a number 3 or 4. I guess when they write a book about you, you become fearless. This was a horrible deal for Oakland.

He hasn't really impressed me either. But my guess is that the A's disagree with you about that #3 or #4 thing. He did strike out 150 in 128 innings in AAA last year. And he was their #1 prospect going into last year per BA.

I wonder if Barton projects as a 1b/dh. He had 11 errors in 52 games at catcher last year.

Phhhl
12-18-2004, 08:28 PM
I guess everyone loves the Cardinals, even other clubs. :rolleyes:

To be fair, I don't know much about Barton. But, I thought Wainright was their best pitching prospect. Haren will probably be a midling starting pitcher, but nowhere near the stud everyone seems to think he is this winter. I've followed Haren very closely because I had him for about a year in my roto system, saw him pitch several times on tv and he just doesn't have the type of lights out stuff he's given credit for. I thought Atlanta beat Beane on the last deal, but figured he would ralley if he dealt another of the "big three", but he is practically giving them away. This is absolutely disgusting.

Buckeye33
12-18-2004, 08:29 PM
Zito for Claussen and EE? If Zito agreed to an extension?

Call em up DanO.

Reds4Life
12-18-2004, 08:29 PM
Ugh. Why, oh why? :dflynn:

WVRed
12-18-2004, 08:32 PM
mulder is good but cards have took a big hit too:
williams matheny kline renteria womack

I wouldnt consider that a big hit. Mulder is 11 years younger than Williams and is CONSIDERABLY better.

Matheny will be replaced easily by Yadier Molina, who outhit Matheny last season.

Ray King became the Cards top lefty out of the pen, hardly a loss there.

Renteria is gone, but the Cardinals will likely sign Orlando Cabrera, who doesnt hit as well as Renteria, but fields the same.

Womack had a career year last season, and at his age, he will become an overpaid Miguel Cairo.

St Louis hasnt lost anything that would deter success.

D-Man
12-18-2004, 08:34 PM
Looks like the A's are punting this year, as three-fifths of the rotation has been traded away. They do have several ready or near-ready arms available (Blanton, Meyer, and Haren), but I suspect they will all go through growing pains this year and next.

I like Mulder a lot, but the Cards gave up a lot of talent to get him. Haren is probably their best pitching prospect, and Calero looked swell out of the pen last year. Daric Barton looks like THE stud in the bunch. He put up a .316/.445/.511 line as a teenager in the Midwest League. Lefthanded power-hitting catchers don't come around every day.

Nice reload job by Beane, but I think it may be a painful year or two in the East Bay.

jrdunnit
12-18-2004, 08:36 PM
everyone gave matheny praise for his handling of staff and they are not sure on cabrera.thursday kmox sais they may get a nontendered 2b and a guy like larkin and lugo to man short.orlando is good but if game was line and graves pitching,you wouldnt want to see renteria up there.

RFS62
12-18-2004, 08:38 PM
Lefthanded power-hitting catchers don't come around every day.

They've got another one coming along in Brandon Yarbrough. Lefty hitting catcher, third in the league last summer in hitting.

He spent a lot of time in my house growing up, a great kid with a great future.

Falls City Beer
12-18-2004, 08:38 PM
In the NL it's Atlanta, St. Louis, and everyone else.

jrdunnit
12-18-2004, 08:42 PM
last year,in december it was houston and cubs and no-one else!!!!!!!! :thumbup:

WVRed
12-18-2004, 08:44 PM
everyone gave matheny praise for his handling of staff and they are not sure on cabrera.thursday kmox sais they may get a nontendered 2b and a guy like larkin and lugo to man short.orlando is good but if game was line and graves pitching,you wouldnt want to see renteria up there.

Considering its Graves, I wouldnt want to see any of the above you just mentioned:lol:.

jrdunnit
12-18-2004, 08:55 PM
excellent point :thumbup:

Falls City Beer
12-18-2004, 08:59 PM
I guess everyone loves the Cardinals, even other clubs. :rolleyes:

To be fair, I don't know much about Barton. But, I thought Wainright was their best pitching prospect. Haren will probably be a midling starting pitcher, but nowhere near the stud everyone seems to think he is this winter. I've followed Haren very closely because I had him for about a year in my roto system, saw him pitch several times on tv and he just doesn't have the type of lights out stuff he's given credit for. I thought Atlanta beat Beane on the last deal, but figured he would ralley if he dealt another of the "big three", but he is practically giving them away. This is absolutely disgusting.

Haren's definitely got a touch of the Tomko in him.

Maybe he'll become a major leaguer now that he doesn't have to work under Dave "I only want veterans" Duncan.

traderumor
12-18-2004, 09:11 PM
I think turning Haren into Mulder, regardless of losing a bullpenner and a prospect, is a very nice move by the Cards. Haren was dominant--until he hit AAA and the bigs, two years running. Mulder is established, obviously more expensive, but the jury is still out on Haren.

Raisor
12-18-2004, 09:16 PM
Can there be any doubt that Beane's been ordered to cut payroll?

pedro
12-18-2004, 09:20 PM
Can there be any doubt that Beane's been ordered to cut payroll?

sure is easier when you have high priced players that other teams actually want. I wonder what that is like. I bet it's fun.

MattyHo4Life
12-18-2004, 09:34 PM
I hate losing Barton, but I still love this trade. Mulder is a huge upgrade over Haren. This is a good trade for Oakland as well considering they're reloading on prospects. Barton is a stud, but Molina is the Cards future (present) catcher. I'm just glad that Reyes wasn't included in this trade. I don't think I'd like the trade if it was Reyes, Barton, and Haren.

MWM
12-18-2004, 09:42 PM
I think some are underestimating how good Haren actually is. He might not be an ace, but he's got the makings of a very strong starter. People are so enamored by stuff that they think you have to have overpowering stuff to be an effective major league starter. Heck, look at Mulder himself. He doesn't exactly have "lights out" stuff either.

In 4 seasons in the minors, he pitched a total of 473 innings, with an ERA of 3.16, 462 Ks, only 86 walks, 448 hits, WHIP 1.13. Now his last stent in AAA last year, he had mixed numbers with 4.15 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 33 BBs in 128 IP, but he also struck out 150 in that time as well. So he's not a dominator, but you can't have 5 dominators in your rotation.

Muldeer has thrown a lot of innings the last five years with his strikeouts going down and his walks going up. I'm not suggesting he won't rebound because I really like Mulder, but he did throw 225 innings this past year and allow 1.36 baserunners per inning.

While I might not have done this deal if I were Beane, the return isn't as bad as some make it out to be. Daric Barton was the Cards 1st round draft pick last year and has dynamite numbers so far. As a 19 year old in single A ball, he had 69 walks and an OBP of .445 in 313 ABs. Just as a comparison, Adam Dunn also happened to have 313 ABs as a 19 year old in the same league and had only 46 BBs. Like others have said already, Barton's a stud and one of the Cards best prospects.

But i do really like this deal for the Cards. I just don't think it's the fleecing others seem to think it is.

TRF
12-18-2004, 09:45 PM
If you are ordered to cut payroll, a rotation of:

Zito
Harden
Haren
Cruz
Mayer

Sure looks like at least the start of a good young nucleous.

Aronchis
12-18-2004, 10:00 PM
Nice deal for the A's as they rebuild for 2006.

TRF
12-18-2004, 10:03 PM
might not hurt them too bad for 2005.

flyer85
12-18-2004, 10:10 PM
Maybe Beane is trying to corner the market on catching prospects.

He now has Moneyball Brown, Suzuki, Powell and Barton.

flyer85
12-18-2004, 10:12 PM
If you are ordered to cut payroll, a rotation of:

Zito
Harden
Haren
Cruz
Mayer

Sure looks like at least the start of a good young nucleous.

Punt Cruz and Blanton. I think Cruz will stay in the pen.

buckeyenut
12-18-2004, 10:18 PM
If you are ordered to cut payroll, a rotation of:

Zito
Harden
Haren
Cruz
Mayer

Sure looks like at least the start of a good young nucleous.
You forgot Blanton, who may be the best of the bunch.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Beane deal Zito if the right deal comes up, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see him hold Zito until the trade deadline.

Although if I was a GM who thought I was close right now, I would be asking about Zito, Dotel, Kotsay, Durazo and maybe even Chavez. And if I have the $$, Kendall. My guess is any could be had as Beane retools quickly here.

Steve4192
12-18-2004, 10:20 PM
Maybe Beane is trying to corner the market on catching prospects.

He now has Moneyball Brown, Suzuki, Powell and Barton.
It's a heck of a lot easier to deal with a surplus of catching talent than it is to deal with a surplus of 1B/LF talent.

Catchers can be moved to other, less demanding, defensive positions. Brown is pretty much limited to C/1B/DH but those other guys are all good athletes who could handle a move to an OF corner or maybe even the hot corner. Besides, if all else fails, those guys will always have value on the trade market.

Steve4192
12-18-2004, 10:23 PM
It wouldn't surprise me to see Beane deal Zito if the right deal comes up, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see him hold Zito until the trade deadline.
Bingo. I don't think Beane has liked the offers he's been getting for Zito so he has decided to use the 2005 season to 'shine him up' for a trade next year. Zito does have two years left on his deal, so it's not like Beane HAS to make a decision on him right now.

Redsfaithful
12-18-2004, 10:24 PM
I wonder if Mulder's injury history played into Beane's thinking at all.

Nice move by the Cardinals, regardless.

CougarQuest
12-18-2004, 10:24 PM
This tells me the A's aren't done.

WVRed
12-18-2004, 10:26 PM
Can there be any doubt that Beane's been ordered to cut payroll?

Hudson to the Braves, Mulder to the Cardinals, wonder what NL West team Zito is heading to?:)

From Oaklands standpoint, I am scratching my head, and its not for the return like MWM suggested. If Oakland was going to dismantle the big three, why did they trade for Kendall(doesnt make sense if hes not catching Hudson or Mulder) and lock up Chavez to a long term deal?

Theres no doubt in my mind that Beane will have this team contending again as early as 2006. Nick Swisher will replace Dye in RF and will be a contender for ROY this season. Dan Johnson hit 29 HRs in Sacramento last season and figures to replace either Hatteberg or Durazo. Dan Meyer, Dan Haren, Juan Cruz and Joe Blanton will all figure into the rotation or bullpen, and Huston Street is a projected closer. Oakland has an excellent farm system and hasnt failed in developing prospects of late.

CougarQuest
12-18-2004, 10:26 PM
VERY, VERY nice move by the Cards. I'm sure they are very happy. Congrats Matty and the rest of the crew from the Cards board.

TRF
12-18-2004, 10:27 PM
I had forgotten Blanton, because i don't know much about him.

I think Beane holds on to Zito untill at least the AS break. If he's pitching lights out and the A's stink, he'll have every team in contention right where he wants them.

MattyHo4Life
12-18-2004, 10:37 PM
Barton is a great prospect. The only downside is that he may not he good enough defensively to remain a catcher. If he is moved to LF or 1B, then his value drops a lot.

guernsey
12-18-2004, 11:11 PM
By Peter Gammons
Special to ESPN.com
Dec. 18

Walt Jocketty got his Cardinals to the World Series, but knew he needed a No. 1 starter.

He went head-long after Tim Hudson, dabbled in the Pedro Martinez sweepstakes, and now has Mark Mulder: 27 years old, 81-42 lifetime, one of the best left-handed starters of his generation.

As the Braves went to Oakland for Tim Hudson, so did the Cardinals to get Mulder to front their staff, a masterstroke by Jocketty to ensure that St. Louis will be right back in the NL Central hunt.

But the interesting side is what Oakland has done in the span of three days, trading .702 (Hudson) and .659 (Mulder) lifetime winners.

"We have to move forward, not slide backwards," said Oakland general manager Billy Beane, who with one of the game's five lowest payrolls, has had six years averaging 95 wins and seems positioned to go a decade without a losing season.

He acquired Danny Haren, whose 20-inning, 17-4 strikeout-walk ratio, 1.77 September ERA echoes his minor-league track record. He also got reliever Kiko Calero, who in two seasons has thrown 83 2/3 innings with just 56 hits allowed, striking out 98, while allowing just 30 walks. Calero has a 2.80 ERA, while allowing just a .193 opponents' average and a .615 opponents' OPS.

So, in three days, Beane has acquired two starters in Haren and Dan Meyer who slip right into the rotation behind Rich Harden, Cy Young Future, and Barry Zito, 26, Cy Young Past, with rookie Joe Blanton behind them. He has acquired two power relievers in Juan Cruz and Calero, a starting left fielder in Charlie Thomas and a potential hitting star in left-handed hitting catcher Daric Barton, just 19, whose A ball stats --.313, 36 extra base hits, 44 strikeouts, 69 walks -- are Pujols-esque.

Now he has depth and power in the pen after Octavio Dotel with Huston Street, Gairo Garcia, Cruz, Calero, Ricardo Rincon and Chad Bradford; he already has a pretty good trade offer for Cruz. Oh yes. The five players other than Bradford he acquired will cost less than $2 million in 2005.

"What I'm trying to do is set our pitching up for five years," said Beane. "That's something we can't do in free agency, so we have to be as creative as possible. There are risks, especially with so many young pitchers, but we have Harden, Blanton, Haren and Meyer for at least five years, Zito for two more."

So what Beane has tried to do is retool without falling too far back. "I felt badly for some of the teams that worked really hard on Hudson and Mulder," said Beane.

"But we had to get pitchers who can step in right away, and Meyer and Haren can do just that."

And the Cardinals will be right back in the high life, again.

RedSchmo2
12-18-2004, 11:22 PM
The Cards may actually come out looking the fool on this one. Mulder had a serious problem at the end of the year. Though it has never been attributed to an arm problem... his velocity fell off by 5 mph consistently and he couldn't get anyone out for the last 4-5 starts. Maybe just a tired arm... but certainly not a good sign with an unexplained velocity drop.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2004, 12:00 AM
I think some are underestimating how good Haren actually is. He might not be an ace, but he's got the makings of a very strong starter. People are so enamored by stuff that they think you have to have overpowering stuff to be an effective major league starter. Heck, look at Mulder himself. He doesn't exactly have "lights out" stuff either.

One problem a lot of Cardinal fans have with Haren is that he doesn't seem to have a lot of endurance. So far in his young career he really hasn't been able to last past the 5th inning. Many view him to be a reliever due to this. I've always been more optimistic, because he did so well in the minors, and had some very good games last year. His endurance problems could be attributed to him being rushed in the minors, and still being young.

FWIW... the last young starter with high upside that the Cards traded was Bud Smith. That was a bust for Philly.

Caseyfan21
12-19-2004, 12:16 AM
Nice move by the Cards to find a #1, however, I think we are all underestimating Beane. He definately has some sort of plan and the trades he make usually work out very well. It seems he does a great job at finding the types of players to complement what he currently has. The A's have lost an All Star starting lineup worth of talent in the last 5 years, yet they still are competitive year in and year out. I expect the trend will continue as he continues to plan ahead for not being able to afford talent as it approaches free agency.

Dan Haren will probably be a nice pickup for Oakland. If he doesn't pan out as a starter, I could definately see him as a dominant closer. He has nasty stuff from what I've seen. I remember the game he closed out at GABP late in the year against the Reds. He mowed through the middle of the Reds order to close out a Cards win and I was very impressed with his stuff.

Also, Haren is really nice guy, as I have a friend who has met him and gotten to know him. He seems like he has it together and is a class act. Maybe someone more familiar can comment on this further.

But good luck to Dan in the AL, hopefully he will pan out as a starter or even a closer.

M2
12-19-2004, 12:20 AM
Haren just turned 24. That's the magic age for a lot of pitchers. He's got the stuff and the frame to hoss a lot of innings. Plus, his minor league numers -- 3.16 ERA, 1.13 WHIP, 8.79 K/9 -- are textbook stud work. I'd love for the Reds to have a guy like that.

Another trade that looks like a winner for both teams. RedSchmo might be right about Mulder's health, but I figure the Cardinals are being pretty thorough on that front. The deal won't go through if his arm's shot.

LvJ
12-19-2004, 12:33 AM
Mulder was AWFUL in July, August, September and October.

Maybe it's serious? But if not, a great trade by St Louis, but also a good one by Oakland. I love their young rotation and they got a great spect' in Blant.

Cedric
12-19-2004, 12:40 AM
Billy Beane on paper has had one hell of a week. I honestly can't remember a better week by a gm in the time i've followed baseball. Tremendous.

MWM
12-19-2004, 12:51 AM
One thing I do admire about Beane is that once he's decided on going a certain direction, he goes full steam ahead. He's doesn't do things half-ass like some organizations do. When he makes moves, they're bold and with a clear purpose in mind. His moves might not work out, but he can never be accused of not trying everything in his power to WIN within the framework he has to work within.

Some organizations choose to wallow in self pity while guys like Beane aspire to great things having been dealt the same hand. Some organizations just wander around aimlessly just trying not to completely suck. I have no respect for that.

Beane doesn't worry about about "public backlash" and makes bold moves with popular players. That takes stones my friends. That's half the battle.

Cedric
12-19-2004, 12:55 AM
I would argue though that Beane is able to make these shrewd, decisive moves because he has accumatled the talent to swap with others. Let's allow O'brien a chance to develop talent before we paint him into a corner. Bowden left him with NOTHING in the system.

RFS62
12-19-2004, 12:55 AM
Barton is the hidden jewel in this deal. I doubt he'll ever catch an inning in the bigs, but he can rake and he has plate discipline far beyond his years.

oregonred
12-19-2004, 01:21 AM
Best work for Beane was getting these guys out of the AL and away from The Red Sox/Yankees. Unless Mulder is hurt this looks like a steal for the Cards in the rare window of a championship type club (especially with Mulder having an '06 option)

Remember when the Cards were ranked the 30th minor league system by most of the pundits about 12-18 months ago? Theyve managed to flip JD Drew and some hot prospects for Marquis/Wainwright and now the unthinkable in Mulder. Well done and something to be said for flipping the prospect "de jour" when the iron is hot. (something Jimbo never could seem to pull the trigger on guys like Reese/Howington, Roper -- name your prospect flash in the pan here)

Kearns/EE and maybe one of Wagner/Claussen or some combination there-in for Mulder? Should have been enough to interest Beane for Mulder, but AK's injury history may make a great Moneyball player a little less glorious. Reds needed that hot pitching stud in the bigs who could help right now like Haren or Cruz/Mayer.

Cedric
12-19-2004, 01:23 AM
Mulder has a bum shoulder and a bum hip. Getting Calero, Haren, and Barton for that is a steal.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2004, 01:24 AM
"Kearns/EE and maybe one of Wagner/Claussen or some combination there-in for Mulder? Should have been enough to interest Beane for Mulder, but AK's injury history may make a great Moneyball player a little less glorious. Reds needed that hot pitching stud in the bigs who could help right now like Haren or Cruz/Mayer."

Beane's got a boatload of good young arms, and yes, he still needs offense--Kearns for Cruz?

I'd think about it long and hard.

Crash Davis
12-19-2004, 01:29 AM
Can there be any doubt that Beane's been ordered to cut payroll?

So that explains the Kendall deal?

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2004, 01:30 AM
Mulder has a bum shoulder and a bum hip. Getting Calero, Haren, and Barton for that is a steal.

If he doesn't pass his physical then the deal doesn't go through. Plain and simple.

Crash Davis
12-19-2004, 01:43 AM
Billy Beane on paper has had one hell of a week. I honestly can't remember a better week by a gm in the time i've followed baseball. Tremendous.

Really? I like and respect Beane a lot. I think he's as good as it gets (Schuerholz and a few others have earned that respect too).

But what's the biggest rap on Billy Beane? He hasn't won a playoff series. He hasn't been able to fly a championship banner. Whether that criticism is warranted or not, whether you believe the post season is mostly luck or not, the fact is he hasn't cracked the code for postseason success.

So what does he do? He breaks up a great starting rotation, he starts rebuilding a team that, with a "Beane Special" tweak here and there, was good enough to get to the playoffs.

If there was a team that could afford to go for it all in '05 and risk losing Hudson for nothing more than draft picks, it was the A's. Harden should have stepped up to become the 3rd of the Big 3 after Hudson left. Blanton could have been the #4, and they have others in AA or below.

Being a strong contender is special. I just think Beane shouldn't have punted his team's chance to finally to do something in the postseason.

Like I said, I really respect Billy Beane. He's great. I'm sure he got a lot of great, young, cheap talent in these deals. The problem is, he had a chance to wave a banner, and he passed on it. Those opportunities don't come along too often...especially for an organization with shallow pockets.

Why deal for Jason Kendall, who could have been an answer to one of the missing puzzle pieces, and then turn around and deal your #1 & #2 starters for young arms? Isn't that a mixed message?

Cedric
12-19-2004, 01:51 AM
I'm just going on this week, there are plenty of times i've questioned some of his trades. But getting Haren, Cruz, Barton, Calero, and Meyer for one pitcher with a bum shoulder and hip, and another pitcher with one year left on his contract is brilliant.

Phhhl
12-19-2004, 01:55 AM
Really? I like and respect Beane a lot. I think he's as good as it gets (Schuerholz and a few others have earned that respect too).

But what's the biggest rap on Billy Beane? He hasn't won a playoff series. He hasn't been able to fly a championship banner. Whether that criticism is warrented or not, whether you believe the post season is mostly luck or not, the fact is he hasn't cracked the code for postseason success.

So what does he do? He breaks up a great starting rotation, he starts rebuilding a team that, with a "Beane Special" tweak here and there, was good enough to get to the playoffs.

If there was a team that could afford to go for it all in '05 and risk losing Hudson for nothing more than draft picks, it was the A's. Harden should have stepped up to become the 3rd of the Big 3 after Hudson left. Blanton could have been the #4, and they have others in AA or below.

Being a strong contender is special. I just think Beane shouldn't have punted his team's chance to finally to do something in the postseason.

Like I said, I really respect Billy Beane. He's great. I'm sure he got a lot of great, young, cheap talent in these deals. The problem is, he had a chance to wave a banner, and he passed on it. Those opportunities don't come along too often...especially for an organization with shallow pockets.

Why deal for Jason Kendall, who could have been an answer to one of the missing puzzle pieces, and then turn around and deal your #1 & #2 starters for young arms? Isn't that a mixed message?

Very well said. Harden may be the better than all "the big 3", but they used to say that about Steve Avery too. They were so close, with a historically dominant rotation. Beane got a lot of talent in return, but a lot of questions too. We kick around these prospects on Redszone every year, and we are still waiting on more of these phenoms to "arrive" than not. Beane has to be frustrated if the mandate to trade two of the very best pitchers in all of baseball came down from ownership, especially for what he got in return. The blame obviously doesn't rest all on his shoulders, and he may very well be brilliant to secure what he did under those financial restrictions. But the odds of him making out better than his trading partners in the only thing that matters in this game, winning world championships, are extremely slim.

Crash Davis
12-19-2004, 01:56 AM
I'm just going on this week, there are plenty of times i've questioned some of his trades. But getting Haren, Cruz, Barton, Calero, and Meyer for one pitcher with a bum shoulder and hip, and another pitcher with one year left on his contract is brilliant.

Hyperbole much?

Cedric
12-19-2004, 02:00 AM
Smart better?

Cedric
12-19-2004, 02:07 AM
So the suggestion here is for Beane to take one giant run at the world series and possibly put the franchise back five years if it doesn't work out? You can't gamble like that in Oakland, or Minnesota, or here unless you are 100% sure everyone is healthy and you can get the same type return in July.

Phhhl
12-19-2004, 02:30 AM
So the suggestion here is for Beane to take one giant run at the world series and possibly put the franchise back five years if it doesn't work out? You can't gamble like that in Oakland, or Minnesota, or here unless you are 100% sure everyone is healthy and you can get the same type return in July.

Exactly when do you go for it, then? After you've ransacked the best rotation in baseball with trades? Think the Florida Marlins are sorry they didn't flip Carl Pavano for prospects when he broke out in 2003 and they won a World Championship? Should the Reds have exploited Jose Rijo's succes in 1989 and dealt him before he became arbitration eligible? Take away that season, and this club hasn't won a title in 30 years. Oakland may very well find itself in the second half of 2005 desperately needing a pitcher like one of the monsters they just dealt to make their next playoff appearance, and if it's like every other team in baseball they may be willing to deal half the kids they just got for a guy with half the talent of a Mulder or Hudson.

Beane may not cry about it publicly, but I guarantee that if you had him in an unguarded moment he would tell you that he would much rather have built on the good team he had and added the ingredients to give him a legitimate run at a world championship in 2005 than make either of these trades. Right now, he has replaced answers with question marks, and the minor league stats of these kids only carry so much weight in the "show".

Bottom line, it's a sad thing when teams draft and develop superstars like Mulder and Hudson and have to deal them when they are on the verge of making history. Two years from now, we will probably be having the same conversation... IF Haren, Cruz and others prove to be half as good as some seem to think.

Cedric
12-19-2004, 03:04 AM
I'm not arguing that it's a sad state the way baseball is for small market teams, but you still better make the best of it. I do think with Haren and Cruz the A's got enough help that is ready now. It wasn't just a prospect swap, though Haren basically is still one.

pedro
12-19-2004, 03:15 AM
Why deal for Jason Kendall, who could have been an answer to one of the missing puzzle pieces, and then turn around and deal your #1 & #2 starters for young arms? Isn't that a mixed message?

I don't think so b/c if they are going to gut the pitching staff, they're going to need to score more runs. JK, while maybe overpaid, does perform at better than league average for his position.

I think what BB's done is smart. The A's are now loaded with good, young, low service time starters and a bunch of catching prospects. They could even afford to flip a pitcher for an outfielder at this point. Their relief staff is really nice now. He swapped his previous 5 year starter solutions for potential future 5 year solutions. That's good planning IMO.

The A's have also let a lot of guys just walk over last few years, I don't think they could afford to continue to do that with Hudson and Mulder. Draft picks are nice but you better flip a few guy before they walk too.

oregonred
12-19-2004, 03:30 AM
Beane may not cry about it publicly, but I guarantee that if you had him in an unguarded moment he would tell you that he would much rather have built on the good team he had and added the ingredients to give him a legitimate run at a world championship in 2005 than make either of these trades. Right now, he has replaced answers with question marks, and the minor league stats of these kids only carry so much weight in the "show".

Bottom line, it's a sad thing when teams draft and develop superstars like Mulder and Hudson and have to deal them when they are on the verge of making history. Two years from now, we will probably be having the same conversation... IF Haren, Cruz and others prove to be half as good as some seem to think.

Very well said. Beane just dealt two elite pitchers -- two HOF type pitchers. This is Tom Seaver 1977 being dealt twice in one week -- except these two are Seaver 3-5 years younger... This bevy of talent acquired has potential but unless two of these acquired young guys become HOF type elite these deals will be armchair quarterbacked for a longtime. Odds say that's not going to happen no matter thow great they look on paper.

We're talking possibly 2 of the best 5 starters who are consistently reliable developed in the last decade. Guys that almost single handedly kept a $40M payroll with the elite in baseball over the last half-decade. I could see either of these two guys winning a Cy Young anytime in the next 5-6 years. I'd almost bet with 99% certainty none of the arms acquired in this deal finish in the top three -- not even once. These two guys don't fall off trees.

I think Hudson forced Beane's hand. But, I can't for the life of me figure out why he moved so quickly with Mulder. Other than the Cards must have been so close for Hudson that he had this deal in the bag with STL before pulling the trigger with the Braves. I think Beane could have shot the moon with Mulder in a deadline deal during mid-summer '05 if the A's were faltering.

I wonder how much the AL West played into Beane's equation along with the Red Sox/Yankees arms race. Three wealthy clubs, two spending like demons -- one good/one bad (Angels/Mariners) and the other with deep pockets and a host of young talent that seemed to blossom a couple years ahead of plan. Maybe Beane thought 2005/2006 were throw-aways/long shots and by 2007 maybe two of the Yanks/Red Sox/Angels might be old with a bunch of big contracts -- or the A's would be residing in Las Vegas with much more resourcing at their disposal just as the bevy of young talent emerged.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2004, 09:09 AM
I think Hudson forced Beane's hand. But, I can't for the life of me figure out why he moved so quickly with Mulder. Other than the Cards must have been so close for Hudson that he had this deal in the bag with STL before pulling the trigger with the Braves. I think Beane could have shot the moon with Mulder in a deadline deal during mid-summer '05 if the A's were faltering.

He probably dealt Mulder because the Cardinals made him a good offer. Beane did not get fleeced in this deal. He got some good prospects. I like Calero, but he was very replacable since the Cards basically got him for nothing a couple of years ago. Haren is the typr of pitcher a small market team needs since he is young, cheap, and has high upside. Barton is simply amazing, and wouldn't have been dealt in any package that didn't include an Ace. Haren wasn't even projected as being in the Cards rotation this year unless they need him as a #5 guy. Hw would have likely pitched out of the bullpen. I'm just glad that it was Haren, and not Reyes or Ankiel that was traded.

PuffyPig
12-19-2004, 10:56 AM
I like Calero, but he was very replacable since the Cards basically got him for nothing a couple of years ago.

How can a player's origin determine how replacable he is?

I mean, the fact that the Cards obtained Pujols with a later pick vs. the first pick in the draft doesn't have anything to do with his value. If Pujols had been picked up on waivers, would he be more easily replacable?

Krusty
12-19-2004, 11:20 AM
The Cards may actually come out looking the fool on this one. Mulder had a serious problem at the end of the year. Though it has never been attributed to an arm problem... his velocity fell off by 5 mph consistently and he couldn't get anyone out for the last 4-5 starts. Maybe just a tired arm... but certainly not a good sign with an unexplained velocity drop.

I watched ESPN last night and they pointed these things out about Mulder:

1. After the Allstar break, I believe he went 5-6 but his ERA was over 6.00.

2. His last four starts he was 0-4 with an ERA over 11.00.

As much as this might appear to be one-sided in favor of the Cardinals, I think Beane knows that there is something wrong with Mulder and unloaded him while his trade value was still high.

If it was just over payroll, there would be no logical reason why the A's acquire Kendall. I honestly thing Beane knows that Mulder has some type of injury that won't get better down the road. Another Branch Rickey theory.....trade them a year early instead of a year too late.

MWM
12-19-2004, 01:25 PM
I was just on a Cards board and one person lamented that Mulder didn't show enough enthusiasm about getting to come and play in St. Louis. :rolleyes: Mulder said he was somewhat excited to come play for the Cards and he was looking forward to hitting again. But the rest of his comments were remorse about not getting to play with the A's anymore and that he enjoyed his time there.

RANDY IN INDY
12-19-2004, 01:46 PM
Players get attached to folks that they play with, and if there have been no problems, getting traded seems like it could be a tough pill to swallow. I'm sure Mulder has a few close friends on the A's, and if he is married, I'm sure that his wife has developed some relationships that will be tough to leave, but it's part of the game. The remorse that players feel when their friends are traded would seem to be very real to me.

I'm sure that St. Louis, it's fans, new teammates, the commitment to winning, and the great tradition will win him over, once he gets to St. Louis.

WVRed
12-19-2004, 01:53 PM
I was just on a Cards board and one person lamented that Mulder didn't show enough enthusiasm about getting to come and play in St. Louis. :rolleyes: Mulder said he was somewhat excited to come play for the Cards and he was looking forward to hitting again. But the rest of his comments were remorse about not getting to play with the A's anymore and that he enjoyed his time there.

That will probably change. Mark McGwire, Jim Edmonds, and Scott Rolen(even though he is a local product) say hello.

I doubt Mulder will become Ron Gant in St Louis.

Swampturkey
12-19-2004, 02:04 PM
As a Cards fan, I'm extremely happy about this trade. Cards fans are split about 50/50 on Haren. Some like him a lot and wanted him in our rotation now and others, myself included, don't have much faith that he'll ever truely be great. (I saw him give up 8+ runs to the Cubs in one inning IN PERSON last year. That soured me on him quickly. I'd rather have Mulder.). As much as I liked Kiko, as MattyMo4Life said, he is replaceable and with Molina in the fold for the next several years, I personally feel that losing Barton is managable.

As for Jerry's reaction to Mulder's quotes over at our board, I told him he shouldn't worry. The trade is less than a day old and Mulder didn't expect it and the A's are the only team he's known. He'll be happy if he makes it to the fan fest and gets the welcome I know he'll get and who wouldn't want to ride around the ballpark in a convertible on opening day? ;)

Edd Roush
12-19-2004, 02:43 PM
Hypothetically maybe Beane dealed for Kendal so he could develop all of these young arms he was planning on obtaining. In the process, he gives other organization the image that he's serious about next year making the Big Three harder to pry away and also adds some great OBP behind the plate. Beane is a genius and I hope DanO is picking up some things from IMO the best in the business.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2004, 05:15 PM
How can a player's origin determine how replacable he is?

I mean, the fact that the Cards obtained Pujols with a later pick vs. the first pick in the draft doesn't have anything to do with his value. If Pujols had been picked up on waivers, would he be more easily replacable?


It's easier to see a player go when you claim him off waivers than when you've watched him grow for years in the minors. Calero is a reliever, and as I said is replacable. Calero is a good reliever, but if can help you get an Ace like Mulder, then good luck in Oakland Kiko.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2004, 05:37 PM
As much as this might appear to be one-sided in favor of the Cardinals, I think Beane knows that there is something wrong with Mulder and unloaded him while his trade value was still high.

I don't think this is a one sided trade at all. This trade works well for what each team is doing. Nobody thinks that Hudson is injured, but Beane traded him for a similar package. I think Beane just realizes that he can't keep his big three together forever, and wants to cash in his chips before the stakes get too high. Of the three prospects, Barton is the best, but Haren and Calero will give the A's immediate help. The A's are getting younger and cheaper which is exactly what they need to do. The Cardinals could afford to trade some spects to get the Ace they needed. Like the St. Louis/Atlanta trade last year, this is one of those rare trades by two exceptional GM's that helps both teams.

westofyou
12-19-2004, 05:43 PM
Nobody thinks that Hudson is injured, but Beane traded him for a similar package.

Muldar broke his leg the prior year and last year had hip problems and dropping velocity post AS game, the last month he was putrid.

Hudson pulled an oblique last year and returned to form with 5 starts over 7 innings out of his last 8 and only one less than 6 innings. In the same span Mark had 6 starts 1 of 7 innings and 2 of 6, the rest were 4 or less.

OnBaseMachine
06-26-2005, 04:15 AM
I know, I know... almost pointless to bring this back to the front page, but I noticed that Haren threw a complete game tonight and has been pitching well lately, and so it got me thinking. This trade is looking pretty darn good for the A's, although it's still too early to judge it.

Update on the players involved

Danny Haren
104 ip
95 h
6.75 k/9
1.22 whip
3.89 ERA
.729 OPS against

Kiko Calero
15.1 ip
20 h
9.98 k/9
1.63 whip
6.46 ERA
.814 OPS against

Daric Barton(High Class-A)
.314/.436/.461-.897

Mark Mulder
94.2 ip
105 h
5.51 k/9
1.40 whip
4.75 ERA
.783 OPS against

In my opinion, the best player in this deal will be Daric Barton. Kid is destroying high class-A, and doesn't turn 20 until mid-August. Hard to find 19 year old kids with this kind of plate discipline and power.

lollipopcurve
06-26-2005, 09:31 AM
Agreed that the Cards deal looks good for the As. They didn't make out so well in the Hudson deal, as Meyer is struggling in AAA, and Cruz and Thomas have had awful first halfs. GMs look good in some trades and bad in others. It's the nature of the business.

PuffyPig
06-26-2005, 10:30 AM
I'm just glad that it was Haren, and not Reyes or Ankiel that was traded.

I"m guessin' that including Ankiel instead of Haren wouldn't look so bad anymore.

MattyHo4Life
06-26-2005, 10:34 AM
I"m guessin' that including Ankiel instead of Haren wouldn't look so bad anymore.

Ummm...ywah, but not Reyes or Wainwright. lol

PuffyPig
06-26-2005, 11:33 AM
Ummm...ywah, but not Reyes or Wainwright. lol

With the way that Haren is pitching, he's much more of a sure thing than either Reyes or Wainright. I seriously doubt that Beane would prefer either over Haren at this point.

MattyHo4Life
06-26-2005, 01:13 PM
With the way that Haren is pitching, he's much more of a sure thing than either Reyes or Wainright. I seriously doubt that Beane would prefer either over Haren at this point.

He doesn't have the ceiling that Reyes has though.

PuffyPig
06-26-2005, 02:40 PM
He doesn't have the ceiling that Reyes has though.

Maybe not the ceiling, but he also doesn't have the injury history also. But Haren has the ceiling that Wainright has, probably higher.

Falls City Beer
06-26-2005, 02:56 PM
Maybe not the ceiling, but he also doesn't have the injury history also. But Haren has the ceiling that Wainright has, probably higher.

Haren's ceiling is so much higher than Wainwright's, I can't see it.

The Cards shipped off the wrong arm; simple as that. Jocketty lost a trade--you don't hear that very often do you?

M2
06-27-2005, 11:59 AM
Kind of scary how much ready and near-ready pitching talent the Cardinals had. If the Reds could come up with something like Haren, Wainwright and Reyes the organizational outlook would be a whole lot different.

Falls City Beer
06-27-2005, 03:36 PM
Kind of scary how much ready and near-ready pitching talent the Cardinals had. If the Reds could come up with something like Haren, Wainwright and Reyes the organizational outlook would be a whole lot different.

Too bad for the Cards they traded the closest thing to a sure thing in perhaps in the majors. I like Reyes, a lot, but I wouldn't put him in the class of Haren--and Haren's field-tested already, gettin' those jitterbugs out of the way. Wainwright and Reyes have a ways to go before any significant impact, though I wouldn't hold my breath Wainwright.

M2
06-27-2005, 04:58 PM
Wainwright and Reyes have a ways to go before any significant impact, though I wouldn't hold my breath Wainwright.

I agree about having to wait longer before they'll have impact (probably 2006 or 2007), but I don't get why you're down on Wainwright. He's got filthy stuff and a nifty track record. In fact, he's probably got the highest ceiling of the bunch (though Haren, due to his age and current major league performance, clearly is the guy most likely to reach his ceiling.

flyer85
06-27-2005, 05:00 PM
The Reds would kill for a couple of prospects like Reyes and Wainwright at AAA

Aronchis
06-27-2005, 05:06 PM
The Reds would kill for a couple of prospects like Reyes and Wainwright at AAA

Wainwright is the Lizard. Literally. Classic overrated Braves prospect. Push.
Reyes, well ok, the Reds don't have another prospect like that in AAA, but I am not going to make a big deal of it. Neither the Cards or the Reds are exactly stocked with talent at AAA.

M2
06-27-2005, 05:13 PM
Wainwright is the Lizard. Literally. Classic overrated Braves prospect. Push.

Let me know the day when the Lizard works at 93 with a power breaking pitch.

Aronchis
06-27-2005, 05:15 PM
Let me know the day when the Lizard works at 93 with a power breaking pitch.

Sadly Wainwright doesn't work at 93 and he doesn't have a power breaking pitch. He is pretty weak overall and I doubt his makeup is as good as the Lizards.

I don't know where you are getting your info, but Wainwright throws generally in the high 80's, touching the low 90's.

M2
06-27-2005, 05:23 PM
Sadly Wainwright doesn't work at 93 and he doesn't have a power breaking pitch. He is pretty weak overall and I doubt his makeup is as good as the Lizards.

I don't know where you are getting your info, but Wainwright throws generally in the high 80's, touching the low 90's.

BA reported him working in the 90s earlier this year (as he did regularly prior to his injury) and I know a guy who had a radar gun on him in during one of his May starts. He's always had a power breaking pitch (note the career K/9), though it's off a bit this season.

Seems to me you've ignored the information on this guy because he was a Braves prospect.

Aronchis
06-27-2005, 05:26 PM
BA reported him working in the 90s earlier this year (as he did regularly prior to his injury) and I know a guy who had a radar gun on him in during one of his May starts. He's always had a power breaking pitch (note the career K/9), though it's off a bit this season.

Seems to me you've ignored the information on this guy because he was a Braves prospect.

Ignored? Nada, seen. He ain't nothing special, don't care for his makeup either. BA is BA, Ty Howington was throwing in the mid-90's to during the 2002-03 instructional league per BA.

I will take my "eyes" over your "guy with the radar" anyday. Unlike Haren, when you could see the potential, I just don't see it with Wainwright. Maybe things will change, but right now, I don't think he is the real deal and somebody the Cards should move this summer.

M2
06-27-2005, 10:08 PM
Ignored? Nada, seen. He ain't nothing special, don't care for his makeup either. BA is BA, Ty Howington was throwing in the mid-90's to during the 2002-03 instructional league per BA.

I will take my "eyes" over your "guy with the radar" anyday. Unlike Haren, when you could see the potential, I just don't see it with Wainwright. Maybe things will change, but right now, I don't think he is the real deal and somebody the Cards should move this summer.

I'll take the guy with the radar gun over your eyes when it comes to velocity the kid works at, unless you possess an ocular spedometer you haven't mentioned.

And you know his makeup how? From the intimate experience of having seen him pitch from the stands once or twice?

MattyHo4Life
06-28-2005, 07:30 AM
The Reds would kill for a couple of prospects like Reyes and Wainwright at AAA

The Cardinals have another good young arm in Brad Thompson as well.

Raisor
08-07-2005, 06:35 PM
A's are now in first place in the West.

Without Hudson and Mulder.

Just sayin.

cincinnati chili
08-07-2005, 07:55 PM
Oh but don't you know the A's are just lucky. :)

KronoRed
08-07-2005, 09:32 PM
A's are now in first place in the West.

Without Hudson and Mulder.

Just sayin.

They will win the west easy.

I *heart* the A's farm system.

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2005, 09:43 PM
Let me just say this...I predicted the A's to win the World Series back in early July. :p:

Cedric
08-07-2005, 10:32 PM
They will win the west easy.

I *heart* the A's farm system.

They faded last year with Hudson and Mulder. They spent a lot of energy catching up this year. Add in so many young players that might wear out and you can't be sure. The one thing you do know is that the Angels have an awesome bullpen and they know how to win big games. I think it's gonna be both of these teams in the playoff, but I wouldn't be writing the Angels eulogy.

M2
08-08-2005, 12:05 AM
They faded last year with Hudson and Mulder. They spent a lot of energy catching up this year. Add in so many young players that might wear out and you can't be sure. The one thing you do know is that the Angels have an awesome bullpen and they know how to win big games. I think it's gonna be both of these teams in the playoff, but I wouldn't be writing the Angels eulogy.

A big part of the big-game winning know-how was rolled up in two guys named Troy Glaus and David Eckstein ... and they're gone.

Right now Vlad's carrying that team by his lonesome.

The A's seemingly got better the second Bobby Crosby and Mark Ellis came back to form the keystone.

Cedric
08-08-2005, 12:25 AM
The A's are on a roll, have a great team. They could definately run away with it. I'm just saying the Angels have a lethal bullpen and a ton of offensive players still around from the World Series team. Kennedy, Anderson, Molina, Erstad, Figgins. It should be fun.

M2
08-08-2005, 01:00 AM
The A's are on a roll, have a great team. They could definately run away with it. I'm just saying the Angels have a lethal bullpen and a ton of offensive players still around from the World Series team. Kennedy, Anderson, Molina, Erstad, Figgins. It should be fun.

The Halos can pitch, but that offense is dead on the vine. The guys on that list are just role players. The A's got their bats in gear about a month-and-a-half ago while the Angels sticks went into a power dive.

Momentum's been know to shift, but heading into the season I thought the Angels were a paper tiger and that the A's would make a second half charge and I'm sticking with that.

I think trying to stave off the Yankees and Indians for the Wild Card is going to be the chief drama of the season for Los Anaheim.

westofyou
07-10-2008, 11:14 AM
It appears Mark Mulder's career is over: (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/DA0AAF21F868D66D86257482000FE173?OpenDocument)



The Cardinals lefthander walked from the field after managing one out, a strikeout of shortstop Jimmy Rollins, followed by two walks. The same pitch that struck out Rollins caused Mulder pain so severe he could not throw any of his last eight pitches from the same angle or with the same force.

The Cardinals are expected to put Mulder on the disabled list today and promote lefthanded prospect Jaime Garcia from Class AAA Memphis. Mulder is scheduled to have an MRI today in St. Louis; the procedure may be little more than a formality for a pitcher who has needed two shoulder operations and has had four unsuccessful rehab assignments since earning his last major-league win in June 2006.

Joseph
07-10-2008, 11:22 AM
Never like to hear that.

nate
07-10-2008, 11:55 AM
That's really a shame.

OnBaseMachine
07-10-2008, 11:57 AM
I'd say Mulder is just about done.

This trade turned out to be a steal for Beane.

redsmetz
07-10-2008, 12:07 PM
I'd say Mulder is just about done.

This trade turned out to be a steal for Beane.

I don't know if I'd refer to it as a "steal." Clearly the A's got the better given what has subsequently happened, but I don't think anyone forsaw Mulder physically falling apart.

OnBaseMachine
07-10-2008, 12:17 PM
I don't know if I'd refer to it as a "steal." Clearly the A's got the better given what has subsequently happened, but I don't think anyone forsaw Mulder physically falling apart.

While I can't sit here and say that I thought Mulder would be *this* bad, I did think something was wrong with him at the time of the trade. Mulder posted a 6.13 ERA and 42 BB/48 K ratio in 94 innings after the All-Star break in 2004. I think Billy Beane clearly knew Mulder wasn't the same and that was one of the reasons he dealt him. Walt Jocketty didn't lose very many trades with the Cards but this was one he did lose.

cincyinco
07-10-2008, 09:58 PM
Too bad. Mulder was always my favorite of the big 3, and one of my all time favorite pitchers. But even I knew something was wrong with him. Then again I thought he could come back from it. It was a risky as hell trade.

WebScorpion
07-11-2008, 01:02 PM
Too bad. Mulder was always my favorite of the big 3, and one of my all time favorite pitchers. But even I knew something was wrong with him. Then again I thought he could come back from it. It was a risky as hell trade.
Clearly, when trading for pitchers with Beane you must target the ones whose last names begin with 'H'. Hudson, Harang, Haren, Harden...
:laugh: