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traderumor
01-03-2005, 12:45 PM
I've got no way of knowing of this, because I only watch and don't play pro ball, but I think that's a reaction they beat out of you once they start paying you money for the playing the game.

I think for the vast majority of players the rule is you don't run unless you're told to run.

I guess whether you've got a short or long windup would have a lot to do with it. If you kick your foot over your head and reach back to Hudson Bay in your windup, then you probably can't do that with a runner on base. I've never paid that much attention to the length of Milton's windup, so I don't know if it's something he could get away with.

Though tr makes a good point. Perhaps it's a slide step thing and that what Milton needs to do is take a more definitve step toward the plate when he's in the stretch. He needs to do something, that's for sure.

tr, just phrasing it in Strat terms, Milton's been a -6 hold guy for a lot of his career. I'd be all for turning him into a +3 if it meant taking a serious chunk out of his countout.

Yea, I looked that up but didn't mention it because you gave me such a hard time for using strat fielding ratings to support Castro's fielding ability one time.
:mhcky21:

MWM
01-03-2005, 12:46 PM
That's what I was thinking, he should do away with the slide step. Actually, he shouldn't worry at all about his leg kick. If you take your time, and use the same leg lift as you do in the windup, the difference isn't that great.

Another thing to consider is the lack of concentration on the actual pitch if he's worried about the runner. If he's thinking about the runner, he's probably not focused in on the location of the pitch. There's a good chance he just rears back and throws it.

traderumor
01-03-2005, 12:48 PM
110 PF in 2004, 114 in 2003 for HR's

Index of 92 for Runs in those 2 years.

I think the general summary of GAB is that it will give up the cheap homer, but that is more than made up by the small gaps that reduces the number of doubles and triples. A good WHIP history, even with the propensity for the long ball, may save a few runs for Milton when pitching at home.

DoogMinAmo
01-03-2005, 02:17 PM
I must be missing something here, because I've always thought the second a pitcher goes into a wind up, a runner on first is automatically supposed to take off for second. In other words, every single time a guy reached first base, he'd automatically steal second on the first pitch with 100% success. The same for third. If a pitcher goes into a full windup, even Sean Casey couldn't possibly be thrown out. So why wouldn't teams just steal every time they reached base?

100% success? Slightly embellishing, I realize, but is a windup really that much longer than the stretch? I guess it would depend on the leg kick, but even so, with the exception of Hideo Nomo's freeze frame mid-windup, I can't imagine it being so much longer that it would create astronomical increases in base stealing efficiency and results.

M2
01-03-2005, 03:27 PM
Anyone know when the stretch became common? It was mandatory by the time I started watching the game in the early 70s, but I'm not sure it was an industry standard prior to the 60s. I could swear I read something on Bob Feller once which mentioned that he never threw out of the stretch and thought modern pitchers should give it up.

westofyou
01-03-2005, 03:58 PM
Anyone know when the stretch became common? It was mandatory by the time I started watching the game in the early 70s, but I'm not sure it was an industry standard prior to the 60s. I could swear I read something on Bob Feller once which mentioned that he never threw out of the stretch and thought modern pitchers should give it up.

It's been around for awhile and is mentioned in this article.


Klinger, pitching from the stretch, failed to hold Slaughter, who'd been given a steal sign from Dyer. Walker then dumped a soft hit behind shortstop that dropped in front of center fielder Leon Culberson, who then lofted a rainbow throw to cutoff man Pesky.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/10/22/the_season_was_a_mad_dash_from_start_to_finish?pg= full

westofyou
01-03-2005, 04:01 PM
From the 1929 Spalding Guide

http://memory.loc.gov/service/gc/spalding/00171/00446v.jpg

RANDY IN INDY
01-03-2005, 04:07 PM
Great post, westofyou.

Redmachine2003
01-03-2005, 04:10 PM
Milton's leg kick doesn't look that high but it does look slow which should be a problem being left handed. The thing that looks odd to me his his balance when he lands off the mound. He snaps back so quick to get ready to field the ball it looks very hard on his legs and knees and you would think it would hurt him in tring to repeat his delivery. He finishes so stiff and upright.

BoydsOfSummer
01-03-2005, 08:43 PM
From the Hardball Times.




*** Eric Milton | Cincinnati Reds | three years | $25.5 million ***

As someone who has watched about 75% of Eric Milton's 199 career big-league starts, this contract is astonishing to me. Throughout his six seasons in Minnesota and his lone season in Philadelphia, Milton has always been a guy whose stuff and potential never quite matched up with his actual performance. He's a rare lefty with a power fastball and he has excellent offspeed stuff, but he's got a major propensity to serve up long balls on a platter and his career ERA is a thoroughly mediocre 4.76. In fact, once you adjust for ballparks and leagues, Milton's ERA in 1,188.1 innings in the major leagues has been about 1% worse than league average, including 9% and 10% worse than league average in his past two full seasons.

There are worse guys to have in your starting rotation, but Milton is what he is at this point. He'll be 29 in 2005, has never really had a great season, and is coming off a year in which he gave up 43 homers and 110 runs in 201 innings with the Phillies. People have been quick to point out that Philadelphia's new ballpark played as a great place to hit homers last year, which is true, but Milton actually gave up more dingers on the road than at home (one homer every 19.8 at-bats at home, one homer every 16.2 at-bats on the road). Plus, he now moves to the Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati, another long-ball factory.

In addition to the home run problems, another thing that has plagued Milton has been his pitching with runners on base. He held batters to .231/.298/.458 with no one on base this year, but allowed them to smack him around to the tune of .297/.347/.555 with runners on (a difference of about 19%). And this wasn't just a one-year thing, it was an often-discussed problem during his days with the Twins as well. For his entire career, Milton has allowed a .234 batting average with none on and a .298 batting average with runners on.

Here's what he's done over the past three seasons:
2002-2004 AVG OBP SLG OPS GPA AB/HRNone On .220 .270 .403 .673 .222 25.3Runners On .320 .357 .564 .921 .302 17.5If the Reds are fortunate enough that Milton's knee injury that sidelined him for nearly all of the 2003 season doesn't act up again, there's a pretty good chance he will give up 350 runs and 120 homers over the life of this contract. The good news is that he'll supply the fans in the outfield seats at the Great American Ballpark with plenty of souvenirs.

*** Matt Clement | Boston Red Sox | three years | $25.5 million ***

How Milton and Matt Clement end up with indentical contracts in the same offseason is beyond me. Consider their numbers over the past three years:
2002-04 IP ERA AVG OBP SLG OPSClement 587.2 3.80 .223 .306 .360 .666Milton 389.0 4.70 .256 .303 .461 .763Milton missed nearly the entire 2003 season, while Clement has thrown 205, 201.2, and 181 innings in the past three years, and a total of 198.2 more innings than Milton over that span. Clement's ERA is nearly an entire run lower, his batting average against is 15% better, and his slugging percentage against is 28% better. The one area they are even in is on-base percentage against, mostly because Clement is a power pitcher while Milton doesn't walk anyone, but their OPS against shows Clement with a 15% edge.

Clement is a fine replacement for Pedro Martinez, who signed with the Mets for four years and $53 million last month (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/free-agent-wrap-up-the-third-wave/). I'll even go as far as saying that I won't be at all surprised if Clement is more valuable than Martinez over the next three years. Though Red Sox fans may never realize it because of their memories of Martinez, swapping him for Clement while saving an extra year commitment and $27.5 million (and getting a pitcher who is three years younger) is an outstanding move by Boston and making the very best of a difficult situation.

traderumor
01-03-2005, 08:49 PM
Plus, he now moves to the Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati, another long-ball factory.Care to tackle this, FCB?

Redmachine2003
01-03-2005, 11:07 PM
after watching a couple more of Milton's starts he looked smoother in his last couple verses his 12 strike out game. It looked like in that game he was just letting it fly. But it looks like Milton throws 80-90% fastballs and when he needs a strike he seems to throw it right there on a tee for the hitter. The two games I watched today where the last two of the season and he gave up in one game 3 hits 4 runs in the other 4 hits 4 runs. Three two run homers and a double high of the wall scoring two runs. One of the homers was a get a head fastball with a speedy runner on 1st. The other homers and the double I beleive he was either 3-1 or 3-2 on the hitters and instead of tring to throw something off speed to get the strike out he just said here it is and they smacked it. It looks like he gets almost all of his strikeouts on the fastball. I think he needs to use his changeup and curve ball alittle more. More so when he gets behind on the hitter because they are sitting on his fastball and know they are going to get it.

RFS62
01-04-2005, 08:18 AM
I must be missing something here, because I've always thought the second a pitcher goes into a wind up, a runner on first is automatically supposed to take off for second. In other words, every single time a guy reached first base, he'd automatically steal second on the first pitch with 100% success. The same for third. If a pitcher goes into a full windup, even Sean Casey couldn't possibly be thrown out. So why wouldn't teams just steal every time they reached base?



You're not missing anything.

The stretch evolved into a slide step, all in an effort to cut down the time to home plate.

EVERY major league team, and EVERY minor league team, and EVERY college program and most likely EVERY high school program of any regard times the pitchers move to the plate. They also time the catchers throw to second. The decision to run is aided by the knowledge of those numbers vs. the time you already know it takes your runner to get to second.

Milton is not going to abandon the stretch.

traderumor
01-04-2005, 08:31 AM
I don't care what he does to figure out how to improve what hitters do against him with runners on base. If its throw more offspeed pitches, worry less about the baserunner, whatever the glitch is. Since he has the ability to get a K, this is an area that would go far to help him perform better. Hopefully, he can think of $25M reasons not to be hard headed about it.

WMR
09-20-2006, 11:38 AM
Good lord. What a waste of cash.

As long as we're having fun with old threads... ;) (1st page, 12th post)

Steel let me just give you a big ole hearty slap on the backside for this one.

Didn't take you long to run the statistical analysis on this one, did it? ;) :lol:

KronoRed
09-20-2006, 03:16 PM
Lord..I thought we'd done it again :help:

NJReds
09-20-2006, 03:30 PM
Lord..I thought we'd done it again :help:

:all_cohol Yikes. So did I.

RedsMan3203
09-20-2006, 03:43 PM
Yah... I thought we signed him for another 3 years.... I have to go use the restroom now.

marcshoe
09-20-2006, 03:49 PM
I haven't checked to see who bumped this up, but it was a cruel thing to do. I assumed extension as well.

Reds1
09-20-2006, 05:27 PM
i'm embarrassed with my comments.

corkedbat
09-20-2006, 06:15 PM
OMG! I thought it was DeJaVu all over again! Whew! :bang:

redsfan30
09-20-2006, 06:16 PM
i'm embarrassed with my comments.

As am I. I can't believe I actually defended this signing. And what's more, I can't believe I defended it well into the 2005 season.

Reds1
09-20-2006, 09:22 PM
As am I. I can't believe I actually defended this signing. And what's more, I can't believe I defended it well into the 2005 season.

funny thing is this year I wrote him off and he actually had some pretty decent starts. He's just not a good pitcher for our park. ONly 1 more year right?

wheels
09-20-2006, 09:27 PM
funny thing is this year I wrote him off and he actually had some pretty decent starts. He's just not a good pitcher for our park. ONly 1 more year right?


There's that positive thinking we all know and love.:p:

Reds1
09-21-2006, 12:32 AM
There's that positive thinking we all know and love.:p:

ya, I really thought he'd be a great starter. Just wish it wouldn't have taken 18 million + to get him to his 3rd year to have success. I'll be rooting for him in 07 though. PRobably not 08. LOL - just kidding.

savafan
09-21-2006, 12:46 AM
can't he opt out after this year? Not saying he will, but doesn't he have that option?

WMR
09-21-2006, 12:59 AM
can't he opt out after this year? Not saying he will, but doesn't he have that option?

It's his option solely, so he could simply choose not to exercise it.

Not as if there's a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

guttle11
09-21-2006, 01:14 AM
Goodness, I go to Redszone homepage and see "Milton signs for 3..." under "Last post" in the ORG.

I got scared.

Then I saw it's this old thread. All is well.

Ron Madden
01-05-2007, 05:25 AM
What is "The Hot Stove League" and where do they play?

The answer is right here in this thread.

We have absolutely nothing to talk about this off season. So I thought it might be interesting to revisit this thread it contains some great discussion and very civilized debate.

Some may find it to be an interesting read.

NJReds
01-05-2007, 10:29 AM
What is "The Hot Stove League" and where do they play?

The answer is right here in this thread.

We have absolutely nothing to talk about this off season. So I thought it might be interesting to revisit this thread it contains some great discussion and very civilized debate.

Some may find it to be an interesting read.

Well, in retrospect both Clement and Perez stunk it up as well. The Reds would've been better off saving the $$$. Which is what they're doing this offseason -- not signing the Meche's and Lilly's of the world to outlandish contracts.

KronoRed
01-05-2007, 12:02 PM
Stop...Doing...That :explode:

deltachi8
01-05-2007, 02:37 PM
Stop...Doing...That :explode:

For some reason today, my "My Yahoo" page reverted to Reds headlines from last year. So this morning, I was greeted with a headline of "Reds reach agreement with Reliever Hammond"

I swear, I lost three-fives years off my life that instant.

BoydsOfSummer
01-05-2007, 02:45 PM
Only one year to go!

I'll say this for Eric. He never let all those bombs and 5.80 ERA get him down.

Heath
01-05-2007, 04:02 PM
If Ron Madden wasn't a reasonable, fair, and prominent member of this board, I would have absolutely went postal on his reputation for causing and inciting panic.


:D

I hate this thread. :D

RedFanAlways1966
01-05-2007, 04:23 PM
On the bright side...
2005: 6.47 ERA
2006: 5.15 ERA

If that decline in ERA continues, then:
* Less 1.32 points means this year will be a 3.83 ERA.
* Less 20.4% points means this year will be a 4.10 ERA.

From Jefferson Starship...
If only you believe like I believe, baby
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles, baby
So would I
If only you believe like I believe, baby
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles, baby
So would I

RedsBaron
01-05-2007, 04:36 PM
On the bright side...
2005: 6.47 ERA
2006: 5.15 ERA

If that decline in ERA continues, then:
* Less 1.32 points means this year will be a 3.83 ERA.


Then in 2008 Milton's ERA will be 2.51, in 2009 it will be 1.19, and in 2010 it will be less than zero. ;)

Cyclone792
01-05-2007, 04:42 PM
On the bright side...
2005: 6.47 ERA
2006: 5.15 ERA

If that decline in ERA continues, then:
* Less 1.32 points means this year will be a 3.83 ERA.
* Less 20.4% points means this year will be a 4.10 ERA.

From Jefferson Starship...
If only you believe like I believe, baby
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles, baby
So would I
If only you believe like I believe, baby
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles, baby
So would I

Yikes, a high 3/low 4 ERA for Milton in 2007. Man, that's some serious hope! ;)

Milton's DIPS ...

2004: 5.38 (.274 BABIP)
2005: 5.27 (.329 BABIP)
2006: 5.20 (.282 BABIP)

Maybe we'll luck out enough that Milton's DIPS trends to a 5.10 mark next season. Hey, improvement is improvement, right? :D

All that said, if Milton's ERA is below even 4.50 at any point in June or July, he should be traded immediately for anything that can help this franchise in 2008 or beyond. If his ERA is actually in the high 3/low 4 range, then Krivsky will need to make sure that time stops completely until Milton's shipped out for something useful.

RedsManRick
01-05-2007, 05:13 PM
All that said, Milton should be traded immediately for anything that can help this franchise in 2008 or beyond.

fixed :)

BoydsOfSummer
01-06-2007, 01:29 AM
Milton's DIPS ...

2004: 5.38 (.274 BABIP)
2005: 5.27 (.329 BABIP)
2006: 5.20 (.282 BABIP)


Milty--A guy who can consistently suck no matter how hit lucky or unlucky he is.

An infield of Schmidt,Ozzie,Pokey and Hernandez couldn't and wouldn't help that guy. :explode:

jmcclain19
01-06-2007, 01:58 AM
Oh my dear god.

I read the headline - and about had a heart attack. You can't keep doing that to us.

GAC
01-06-2007, 06:01 AM
When the Milton trade went down I never posted on this thread because I really didn't know enough about Milton, other then he was a Twin and had some success before going to the Phillies.

I stick my foot in my mouth enough on here, so I was a "shrug your shoulders, wait and see with fingers crossed kind of guy". ;)

But I did learn a lot from consistently following the evolving discussion/critique on Milton by several posters (MWM, SD, etc).

And it's from that discussion, and what we ended up with with Milton, that has helped me form my position concerning those pitchers available in this off-season's FA pitcher market.

Lets learn from our mistakes.... not repeat them at even a higher cost to this organization IMO.


If Ron Madden wasn't a reasonable, fair, and prominent member of this board, I would have absolutely went postal on his reputation for causing and inciting panic.

True. But he still should be dragged through the streets in his skivvies and a Paris Hilton T-shirt behind a 1973 Ford Pinto for bringing this thread back up. Any takers? :evil:

But maybe he did so as a reminder of the mistakes made in the recent past and to learn from them. If that is the case then we'll cut him some slack and slow the Pinto down to 35 mph.

StillFunkyB
01-06-2007, 09:16 AM
Eric "Chicks dig the long ball" Milton

cincinnati chili
01-06-2007, 09:29 AM
Sometimes it's best not to show up at the poker table. I feel the same away about pre-2007 that I did about pre-2005. Teams are spending money either to desperately placate their fans, or because they don't understand the market.

Ron Madden
01-08-2007, 12:15 AM
Sorry to cause so much angst. ;)

I really found this thread to be an interesting read, especially during a very slow time for Reds news.

I guess it contains more than a few lessons to be learned and I have been taught one. Again I am sorry.

GAC
01-09-2007, 06:48 AM
We have to give someone a hard time during this boring off-season Ron. :mooner:

Moosie52
01-09-2007, 07:26 AM
Then in 2008 Milton's ERA will be 2.51, in 2009 it will be 1.19, and in 2010 it will be less than zero. ;)

Wow. We'd better lock him up for the next 4 years then.

TheBigLebowski
01-09-2007, 12:00 PM
Holy crap. I thought we just signed this guy to an extension.

After last night's Gator game, I didn't think anything could bring me down. However, the thought of three more years of Milton at that salary damned near did it.

Ron Madden
01-10-2007, 03:54 AM
We have to give someone a hard time during this boring off-season Ron. :mooner:

I can survive hard times but getting mooned kinda hurts my fellings. ;)

WMR
01-10-2007, 03:55 AM
I love this thread.

I sure miss Steel's steely analytical mind.

klw
12-27-2007, 01:06 PM
Hey here's a thread that started three years ago today to the hour.

klw
12-27-2007, 01:07 PM
I apologize for any heart attacks caused by bumping this up for the anniversary.

flyer85
12-27-2007, 01:07 PM
Hey here's a thread that started three years ago today to the hour.we can hope for vuja de

WMR
12-27-2007, 01:08 PM
Anybody own a Delorean?

klw
12-27-2007, 01:09 PM
:clap:
Overpaying is needing an oven and paying more at Sears than anyone else did for the exact same model.

The Reds went shopping for an oven at Sears, figured that ovens were out of stock, didn't really look around the sales floor, and then paid more for a toaster than they would have for an oven.

After all, a toaster heats food too.

:clap::clap:

toledodan
12-27-2007, 01:15 PM
I apologize for any heart attacks caused by bumping this up for the anniversary.


the sad thing is i wouldn't have been surprised if they resigned him.:D

Benihana
12-27-2007, 01:16 PM
The Reds probably hope that Milton and Claussen will tie up the Left handing starting pitching for the next few years while Wilson and Ortiz are phased out for Gardner and Pauly(along with the Bubba wild card). The real wild card for next season however is Hudson. Harang looks to be on his way out which I think will be sooner than many people may suspect.

I found this quote very funny. Can you think of anything more off base in hindsight? (Sorry Aronchis)

On the flipside, kudos to wheels, SteelSD, and MWM for correctly calling what this signing was: the worst move DanO ever made.

Heath
12-27-2007, 01:18 PM
I just thought someone was stupid enough to sign him for the same amount.

corkedbat
12-27-2007, 01:30 PM
Dang! For about 2 millionths of a second I thoght I was Gonna have to storm the Reds' office.

Tom Servo
12-27-2007, 01:30 PM
It's over. It's finally over...

wheels
12-27-2007, 01:31 PM
I can't think of anything that could happen in the future of Reds baseball that will make more more angry than I was at the time of this signing.

Maybe if the team were contracted or something.

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-27-2007, 01:38 PM
And then there was this:


From Rotoworld

"It's nice to see the Reds signing a big-name free agent. It's just too bad they picked one of the game's most overrated players to spend their money on. Milton's flyball tendencies won't play well in Great American. He does improve the team, but the Reds will regret this a year from now"

Nailed it, I'd say.

wheels
12-27-2007, 01:40 PM
And then there was this:



Nailed it, I'd say.

Except for the whole "Will improve the team..." thing.

klw
12-27-2007, 02:00 PM
With three "Vets" ahead of him, he has to contend with Hudson and Claussen and with 2 pitchers who ripped up high A ball last year(Gardner looked solid in his AA stint as well) along with a prospect pitcher who struggled because of a torn tendon in his ankle while already having pitched a full season in AA before hand and could EASILY rebound quickly. If any one of them get hot by summer, you never know.

Harang is under pressure. He doesn't have Hudson's arm or Claussen's nastiness and we have not even mentioned Hancock. Just because he was "solid" last year, doesn't mean he was good or will he be in the rotation all season this year. I think the ideal rotation to start out with is Milton,Wilson,Ortiz,Claussen and Hudson. You put all your older,best talents into a pile and see the end result. Aaron simply doesn't have their ability. It may not happen out of spring, but the Ides of March are nearing for Harang.

As long as we are dredging up glass-houses moments, this was my favorite reading of Harang. Dredged up with apologies from someone who advocated hitting Gonzalez leadoff.

MWM
12-27-2007, 02:29 PM
Well, I never would have bumped this, but since it's been bumped I read through the first 15 or so pages. Here are some of my favorites:


So you don't think the moves the Reds have made this winter are a step in the right direction? I don't know what to say to that.

Proven winner

The front office goes and and makes some strides, and still people are upset, it's a lose lose for some of you no matter what. Someone will always twist out what the front office does as bad.

This Year's projected Opening Day Rotation - Wilson, Milton, Ortiz, Hudson, Harang/Claussen. This isn't improvement?

Proven winner

You people are freaking unbelievable. You ***** about every signing the Reds make. You ***** that they do nothing. You ***** that the offseason is a failure because they didn't upgrade the starting pitching. When they do upgrade the starting pitching with a nice, proven Major League pitcher what do you do? *****.

Proven left hander

I agree with the sentiment that most people on this board are malcontents and will always find something to b-tch about.

DanO has filled every hole this team had and now we have to see what kind of trades he will make with some of the surplus.

Also, I don't see how anyone could look at Eric Milton, good numbers and bad, and say with a straight face that he's not an improvement over some of the pitchers we have ran out there the past couple years.

Proven winner

How can you be upset about this signing. 4.76 in the AL isn't that bad.

I see people gripe when the Reds actually do things and make moves to make improvements to a beleagured ballclub -- reminds me of Bengals fans...

I will take a 29 year old, 14 game winning LEFTIE in the rotation any day of the week

Man, some of you guys are unbelieveable. The Reds go out and show their fans that they are willing to spend money to bring pitching in and all I read is how we overpay for Milton. At least the Reds have showed they are committed to winning. Adding three relievers and two starters while giving up only a minor league pitcher has been a tremendous offseason.

Proven winner

Caveat Emperor
12-27-2007, 02:32 PM
Well, I never would have bumped this, but since it's been bumped I read through the first 15 or so pages.

Based my comments in support of the move, I'd actually like to see this thread obliterated from the face of the internet.

vaticanplum
12-27-2007, 02:35 PM
Harang is under pressure. He doesn't have Hudson's arm or Claussen's nastiness and we have not even mentioned Hancock.

I will definitely be adopting "we have not even mentioned Hancock" as a catch phrase of some sort. No one on earth will understand it, but I alone will silently revel in its hilarity every time I use it.

Superdude
12-27-2007, 02:41 PM
I will definitely be adopting "we have not even mentioned Hancock" as a catch phrase of some sort. No one on earth will understand it, but I alone will silently revel in its hilarity every time I use it.

You do know he died right? :rolleyes:

vaticanplum
12-27-2007, 03:08 PM
You do know he died right? :rolleyes:

I actually did forget that. Well, I guess that makes that joke slightly inappropriate.

vaticanplum
12-27-2007, 03:18 PM
So here's what I've learned in skimming this thread besides the fact that I should check a baseball player's alive/dead status before cracking a joke at his expense:

1. Never be impressed by large amounts of money alone. I should know this from following the Yankees, but a complete lack of hope in a team sometimes distorts a picture of flashiness into substance. Money alone has no value; only what you spend it on does.

2. There are some clever people on this board. Not just the ones who were right about Milton, but all of folks who put forth very well-thought out, well-expressed posts on all sides of this discussion. I lose sight of that in things like the black hole that is the Bedard thread, but it's true.

3. For the billionth time: the Reds got unbefreakingly lucky with Aaron Harang. That has to be one of the trades of the decade, and whether it was smarts or luck or desperation that played the largest role, I don't care. Reds fans should get down on their knees every day and thank the baseball gods for that one. I don't know that the Reds will luck into something like that again for a long time.

4.
According to the news, the Yanks offered $27.5 million / 3yrs.

The Yankees GM wanted him

The Red Sox GM wanted him

The Dodgers GM wanted him

Interesting.

A lot of people in important positions can be very wrong about a lot of things. Life really is just one great big bandwagon of dumb sometimes.

jojo
12-27-2007, 04:23 PM
A lot of people in important positions can be very wrong about a lot of things. Life really is just one great big bandwagon of dumb sometimes.

In defense of the Yankees, BoSox and Dodgers, while they may have kicked the tires on the Miltonwagon, only the Reds drove it off of the lot....

marcshoe
12-27-2007, 04:26 PM
I just wish someone would either tie an anchor to this thread or add the words OLD THREAD to the beginning of the title. There's only so much the human heart can take.

pedro
12-27-2007, 04:32 PM
I just wish someone would either tie an anchor to this thread or add the words OLD THREAD to the beginning of the title. There's only so much the human heart can take.

Have a little faith that Krivsky isn't a complete moron and you won't get startled by such titles.

marcshoe
12-27-2007, 04:33 PM
btw, I confess that I wrote a long post in defense of Milton on my blog about the time this thread appeared. Suffice it to say that no record of said post now exists.

The whole Milton fiasco went a long way toward convincing me of the correctness of some of the arguments often put forth on this board. B.M. (Before Milton, of course), I was on the fence about the whole new stats thing, or whatever you want to call it. After he bombed, fulfilling the predictions of many on this board, I looked more deeply into it all, and I'm now a believer.

PuffyPig
12-27-2007, 04:38 PM
Re:Harang

I think the leason to be learned is that pitchers can improve.

Everything about Harang got better, from his command right down to his stuff.

Sure we got lucky with Harang.

But who's to say that someone like Belise (who's always had the stuff) won't start putting it together?

CaiGuy
12-27-2007, 04:40 PM
The most interesting thing about this thread are the comments in favor and against Harang. It strongly parallels with today's discussions about Belisle.

CaiGuy
12-27-2007, 04:43 PM
Re:Harang

I think the leason to be learned is that pitchers can improve.

Everything about Harang got better, from his command right down to his stuff.

Sure we got lucky with Harang.

But who's to say that someone like Belise (who's always had the stuff) won't start putting it together?

I was a dollar short and two minutes late.

But exactly what he said...

jojo
12-27-2007, 05:42 PM
Here's what I learned from this thread:

Boss is the KING of snark....

Way cool.

LvJ
12-27-2007, 05:58 PM
Sigh, guys, bringing this thread back to the top scared the crap out of me. I thought it was new.

Boss-Hog
12-27-2007, 06:10 PM
I was rather snarky, wasn't I? I only wish I had been wrong. :D


Here's what I learned from this thread:

Boss is the KING of snark....

Way cool.

The_jbh
12-27-2007, 07:43 PM
Sigh, guys, bringing this thread back to the top scared the crap out of me. I thought it was new.

Ummm no kidding this post scared the crap out of me when I saw it... I was scared for my sanity.

Raisor
12-27-2007, 07:47 PM
I'm glad this was brought up. I think it's the duty of every member of ORG to read this entire thread. I also think that any memeber of the Sun Deck that wants to move up needs to read the entire thread.

Now assuming that everyone on the site is now required to read this thread, I'd just like to remind everyone how cool Raisor is and that you all should send him money just for being this cool.

Thanks.

jojo
12-27-2007, 08:09 PM
I'm glad this was brought up. I think it's the duty of every member of ORG to read this entire thread. I also think that any memeber of the Sun Deck that wants to move up needs to read the entire thread.

Now assuming that everyone on the site is now required to read this thread, I'd just like to remind everyone how cool Raisor is and that you all should send him money just for being this cool.

Thanks.

I'm willing to chip in my $.02 :cool:

PuffyPig
12-27-2007, 08:31 PM
I'm willing to chip in my $.02 :cool:


That's a little more than I was willing to contribute.

BoydsOfSummer
12-27-2007, 10:52 PM
Actually the Womack trade pissed me off more. At least I reacted worse to it. Maybe i was suppressing some of the Milton vile and Tony brought it out. Or maybe that was the breaking point.

The Milton dagger hurt way longer though. Three cheers for that era being over.

Cedric
12-27-2007, 11:17 PM
Eric Milton and Tony Womack. What perfect examples of an inept, clueless, and out of date General Manager.

MWM
12-27-2007, 11:39 PM
OK. Here it is. :evil:

Although, most everyone called this one what it was from the beginning.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41572

BoydsOfSummer
12-28-2007, 03:31 AM
Ahhh good times. There is some funny stuff in that thread. I think Pedro used the fewest words and said it best with this...
I'm sick.

MrCinatit
12-28-2007, 04:08 AM
Eric Milton and Tony Womack. What perfect examples of an inept, clueless, and out of date General Manager.

That whole Casey for Williams trade was a real winner, too - though, as I remember, most were disappointed that Dan0 had held onto Casey for too long.

GAC
12-28-2007, 06:16 AM
Gee, since we are reminiscing, maybe some would like to review the thread where we traded Guillen to the A's for Aaron Harang and Joe Valentine.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31420&highlight=Reds+Trade+Guillen+for+Harang

"Valentine has electric stuff."

"Harang's good????? Harang, a 25-year-old starting pitcher considered to have a promising future, is 1-3 with a 5.34 ERA in seven games with the Athletics this season."

"Harang has the potential to be a #1."

"Sounds like a decent deal."

"Would have preferred Joe Blanton (younger, but a step up in quality), but this is an all right deal."

"I don't like Harang at all, but I still like this deal for the Reds if Valentine's in the deal."

"Whatever the case, I am not happy with this trade. Anyway, with this trade, we don't have our 'MVP' anymore"

And my personal favorite.....

"KEEP DON GULLET AWAY FROM THIS DUDE!!!" :lol:

savafan
12-28-2007, 07:22 AM
Hey, I was right on with my predictions on that Harang deal.

wheels
12-28-2007, 08:50 AM
Man.

The more these old threads get dredged up, the smarter I look.

Keep 'em comin'.

KronoRed
12-28-2007, 11:49 AM
I love this thread, I really do

Cyclone792
12-28-2007, 12:13 PM
If I made a list of the top five Reds moves I've hated the most in the last five years - immediately after they occurred - this would definitely be on it (arguably either first or second). The Milton signing was the absolute epitome of the Dan O'Brien Era; sheer incompentence at total work.

And then Eric Milton then rewarded the Reds by being the worst starting pitcher in Reds history with a minimum of 50 career starts in a Reds uniform. I mean think about that; it takes a combination of a pitcher sucking so bad along with a team being dumb enough to keep running him out there for that to occur.

But it did occur, and we'll all always have those bad memories. Memories of back-to-back homers allowed. Or back-to-back innings with homers allowed. Three homes allowed in individual games, sometimes over just a few innings.

Truly a lovely display of Reds baseball.

SteelSD
12-28-2007, 12:27 PM
Very few baseball moves can be made that would almost make one forget about the acquisition of Ramon Ortiz.

The Eric Milton signing is one of those few. In 2005, 114 pitchers threw 140 or more Innings. Only six ended up with a DIPS ERA of 5.20 or higher. The Reds had 33% of that group in their starting rotation.

RedsFan75
12-28-2007, 01:26 PM
Compared to Milton.... Ortiz was good!!!

wheels
12-28-2007, 03:37 PM
Compared to Milton.... Ortiz was good!!!


Not really.

He just didn't stick around as long or make as much money.

westofyou
12-28-2007, 03:51 PM
Not really.

He just didn't stick around as long or make as much money.

Well he was talented.

He could cut hair

KronoRed
12-28-2007, 07:31 PM
Can't underestimate a good hair cut.

Raisor
02-05-2009, 06:42 PM
Like I said, everyone on RZ should read this at least once a year. There's lots of things to learn.

Hope I don't scare anyone bumping this back up.

nate
02-05-2009, 07:05 PM
You...you...so-and-so.

cincrazy
02-05-2009, 07:05 PM
Thank God I wasn't around at the time of this thread. Heaven knows I've already embarrassed myself enough around here, I can hardly imagine what my 19 year old fingers would have typed at the sheer excitement of signing a guy who had previously thrown a no hitter.

lollipopcurve
02-05-2009, 07:07 PM
Like I said, everyone on RZ should read this at least once a year. There's lots of things to learn.

Why don't you summarize? It's a 57 page thread, after all.

westofyou
02-05-2009, 07:10 PM
Like I said, everyone on RZ should read this at least once a year. There's lots of things to learn.

Hope I don't scare anyone bumping this back up.

There's way more in the archives that teach then this thread could ever teach.

lollipopcurve
02-05-2009, 07:39 PM
There's way more in the archives that teach then this thread could ever teach.

Agreed -- and it's not close.

I assume the thread is supposed to be relevant to this offseason. Like, maybe, it's good that the team hasn't gone out and bought an expensive free agent?

Blitz Dorsey
02-05-2009, 08:44 PM
Why oh why would this thread be brought up? Couldn't find the Marge sypathizes with Hitler thread? What about the Reds trade Frank Robinson thread?

HeatherC1212
02-05-2009, 09:39 PM
Thank you so much for bumping this thread up and giving me a stroke. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Degenerate39
02-05-2009, 09:46 PM
I got a little scared when I saw Eric Milton signs for 3... On the main page. Just lock and delete this thread :(

Ravenlord
02-05-2009, 09:48 PM
I got a little scared when I saw Eric Milton signs for 3... On the main page. Just lock and delete this thread :(

i wouldn't delete it, it does have some good stuff in it. but i love the idea of locking it.

SteelSD
02-05-2009, 10:58 PM
Why don't you summarize? It's a 57 page thread, after all.

It's interesting that you'd ask for a summary, considering that you posted in the thread.

lollipopcurve: I'm looking forward to seeing Milton. He's a pitcher I really haven't seen much of at all. Looks like he relies on his fastball. Anybody know what else he throws, and how well? Maybe he'll be another Browning (who threw a LOT of flyball outs). Steady and reliable. I think if we can make our bullpen into a real strength, we'll compete.

How did that work out?


Agreed -- and it's not close.

I assume the thread is supposed to be relevant to this offseason. Like, maybe, it's good that the team hasn't gone out and bought an expensive free agent?

Or that maybe a team shouldn't bring in guys who project to be bad players and they especially shouldn't spend any money on those guys?

WMR
02-05-2009, 11:02 PM
It's interesting that you'd ask for a summary, considering that you posted in the thread.

lollipopcurve: I'm looking forward to seeing Milton. He's a pitcher I really haven't seen much of at all. Looks like he relies on his fastball. Anybody know what else he throws, and how well? Maybe he'll be another Browning (who threw a LOT of flyball outs). Steady and reliable. I think if we can make our bullpen into a real strength, we'll compete.

How did that work out?



Or that maybe a team shouldn't bring in guys who project to be bad players and they especially shouldn't spend any money on those guys?

At least we're down from 25 to 6. :lol:

Of course, we've got beaucoup dollars tied up in Lincoln and Weathers as well.

Heck, add it all up and you could go out there and get one of those newfangled GOOD expensive free agents! :p:

Boss-Hog
02-05-2009, 11:27 PM
It's interesting that you'd ask for a summary, considering that you posted in the thread.

lollipopcurve: I'm looking forward to seeing Milton. He's a pitcher I really haven't seen much of at all. Looks like he relies on his fastball. Anybody know what else he throws, and how well? Maybe he'll be another Browning (who threw a LOT of flyball outs). Steady and reliable. I think if we can make our bullpen into a real strength, we'll compete.

How did that work out?



Or that maybe a team shouldn't bring in guys who project to be bad players and they especially shouldn't spend any money on those guys?
If this is what old threads are going to be used for, next time don't bother bringing them back from the dead.

kaldaniels
02-05-2009, 11:35 PM
1. Eric Milton LHP
2. Paul Wilson RHP
3. Ramon Ortiz RHP
4. Aaron Harang RHP
5. Luke Hudson RHP

I picked that nugget off the first page of this thread. Reading some of the stuff posted this offseason makes you think the Reds are going to have their worst season ever. I believe a thread exists to the effect of "Have you ever felt this bad about the Reds". While the lack of a big bat addition bothers me...I have not yet forgotten the above rotation.

My point...things are getting better...sure there are a ways to go...but that rotation above is laughable. (I know...a certain CF that was added this year is laughable too, spare me)

RedsManRick
02-06-2009, 12:24 AM
4 years ago we gave Eric Milton more money per year for 3 years than Adam Dunn is going to be able get one for one year. Crazy.

dougdirt
02-06-2009, 12:30 AM
4 years ago we gave Eric Milton more money per year for 3 years than Adam Dunn is going to be able get one for one year. Crazy.

Funny things happen when your owner tells your GM what to do....

Ravenlord
02-06-2009, 02:11 AM
It's interesting that you'd ask for a summary, considering that you posted in the thread.

lollipopcurve: I'm looking forward to seeing Milton. He's a pitcher I really haven't seen much of at all. Looks like he relies on his fastball. Anybody know what else he throws, and how well? Maybe he'll be another Browning (who threw a LOT of flyball outs). Steady and reliable. I think if we can make our bullpen into a real strength, we'll compete.

How did that work out?

i think you're being too harsh there. yeah the signing didn't work out, but overall, Miltion projected to be a 50/50 shot. to be quite honest, i think his overall numbers as a Red were better than many (including myself) expected.



Or that maybe a team shouldn't bring in guys who project to be bad players and they especially shouldn't spend any money on those guys?depends on what those players are expected to do. i like Jolbert Cabrera, but if he's brought in to start or automatically have a bench spot, i don't like him. fringe guys are fringe guys, i'm pretty sure you and i have the same view on this, so i'm not going to gnash teeth over what most likely caused the bumping of what should be a dead thread; Jacque Jones and Daryle Ward.

TRF
02-06-2009, 10:05 AM
I was a friggin' genius in this thread. way beyond my years, almost prophet-like.

jojo
02-06-2009, 10:39 AM
The Reds just signed the wrong Milton. They needed the one before the catastrophic knee injury.

nate
02-06-2009, 11:07 AM
The Reds just signed the wrong Milton. They needed the one before the catastrophic knee injury.

They got the one with the red Swingline.

RedEye
02-06-2009, 09:51 PM
Man, this thread existed before I was even "born" into this forum. What a strange place it was, that pre-RedEye RedsZone. Probably a lot fewer posts on Friday nights. :eek:

WebScorpion
02-09-2009, 09:02 AM
Raisor, if and when I finally meet you, I'm going to punch you in the eye for bringing this thread up again. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/boxer.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org) I just don't want you wondering why I did it.



Oh, I've been advised to add this phrase: The prevoius threat was made purely for comedic effect. Any offense taken or perceived, is purely coincidental and not the intended effect of the comedic jab. Should Phil Raisor suddenly appear with a 'black eye', we do not claim responsibility for the development, and in fact, will vehemently deny any responsibility for such a development.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/joke.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Hoosier Red
02-09-2009, 10:50 AM
I'm not sure I've ever experienced such an enormous come down from the high of signing a free agent pitcher.

I remember sitting at my parents house, seeing it pop up on the news(I want to say we were watching the UC-Miami basketball game at the time) and running into their computer room.

I get on Redszone, and it just seemed like everybody hated it. Guys I really respected hated it more than everyone else.

It was then that i knew(much as I tried to fight it,) he was going to be terrible.