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CougarQuest
12-27-2004, 02:50 PM
signed with the Reds for 3 years per WLW

Carter
12-27-2004, 02:51 PM
Seriously? Milton?

Jpup
12-27-2004, 02:51 PM
let the weeping and knashing of teeth begin.

I like it. :thumbup:

Marge'sMullet
12-27-2004, 02:51 PM
yes, I just here it. Good sign.

Petitt33
12-27-2004, 02:51 PM
ah, I was hoping for someone else...

OldXOhio
12-27-2004, 02:51 PM
wait to hear the $ involved first before gnashing your teeth.

CougarQuest
12-27-2004, 02:52 PM
Reds will have the press conference at 4:15

charlie hustle
12-27-2004, 02:52 PM
I can't believe it.Carl Lidner ,I take back everything i said about you.I can't wait until SPRING TRAINING.YEAHHHHHHHHHH BABY

traderumor
12-27-2004, 02:52 PM
ryan?

Red Leader
12-27-2004, 02:53 PM
I'm waiting for a salary amount, but I'm expecting 3 years / $21M at least.

Milton is better than Lowe, in my opinion. So, I'm relieved its not Lowe, but I still would have paid Perez that same money.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 02:53 PM
Sure hope they didn't give him $7M+ a year.

3 years and $15M would be about right.

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 02:53 PM
Good lord. What a waste of cash.

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 02:53 PM
Ryan, is this the name?

Carter
12-27-2004, 02:54 PM
Hell, I will take it. We got ourselves a rotation.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 02:54 PM
Good lord. What a waste of cash.
Milton? :dflynn:

Buckeye33
12-27-2004, 02:55 PM
Anything over 6 million per year would be going to high imo. But it is a good sign that this FO and ownership have a pulse and are at least trying to improve the team.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 02:55 PM
He has some upside. Has always had a good WHIp and H/IP ratio. His problem has been an ERA inflated by too many gopherballs. Actually GABP is not as bad a HR park as the Homerdome and Gopherball East in Philly.

Playadlc
12-27-2004, 02:55 PM
Well, maybe we will sign Perez too?

Hey, one can dream.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 02:55 PM
Ortiz and Milton in the same rotation. You'll have a better chance at a home run ball in the real game than you will in BP :help:

Dan
12-27-2004, 02:56 PM
What's this? We actually signed someone that the casual fan may have heard of? :eek: :eek:

Very good signing. Really, really helps the rotation.

Way to go DO, et al.

:gac: :gac:

Caveat Emperor
12-27-2004, 02:56 PM
signed with the Reds for 3 years per WLW

This really makes things interesting for the Reds starting rotation now... Milton gives them an established lefty to sit in the middle of the staff, which they need in the NL Central, but also makes the fight for the final 2 spots even tighter; now you've got Aaron Harang, Luke Hudson, Brandon Claussen and Josh Hancock all fighting for 2 spots.

The fact that they're going after a lefty really must mean the Reds brass have soured on Claussen.

-CE

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 02:56 PM
I'm ok with Milton, once I get over the letdown of it not being Odalis Perez, I'll be even happier. He is a lefty which we badly need. He will top our rotation and start on Opening Day.

New rotation:

1. Eric Milton LHP
2. Paul Wilson RHP
3. Ramon Ortiz RHP
4. Aaron Harang RHP
5. Luke Hudson RHP

Not bad.

Aronchis
12-27-2004, 02:57 PM
This really makes things interesting for the Reds starting rotation now... Milton gives them an established lefty to sit in the middle of the staff, which they need in the NL Central, but also makes the fight for the final 2 spots even tighter; now you've got Aaron Harang, Luke Hudson, Brandon Claussen and Josh Hancock all fighting for 2 spots.

The fact that they're going after a lefty really must mean the Reds brass have soured on Claussen.

-CE

Or they want another lefty in the rotation. Don't buy Milton's signing they "have" soured" on Claussen. The Reds lack of lefty pitching is real known.

Marge'sMullet
12-27-2004, 02:58 PM
Statistics
Year Team INN GS W L S K BBI HA ERA WHIP
2004 PHI 201.0 34 14 6 0 161 75 196 4.746 1.348
2003 MIN 17.0 3 1 0 0 7 1 15 2.647 0.941
2002 MIN 171.0 29 13 9 0 121 30 173 4.842 1.187
2001 MIN 220.2 34 15 7 0 157 61 222 4.332 1.285
2000 MIN 200.0 33 13 10 0 160 44 205 4.860 1.245
1999 MIN 206.1 34 7 11 0 163 63 190 4.498 1.228
1998 MIN 172.1 32 8 14 0 107 70 195 5.648 1.540
7 Seasons 1188.1 199 71 57 0 876 344 1196 4.757 1.296

Petitt33
12-27-2004, 02:59 PM
Anyone have Milton's stats from last year?

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 02:59 PM
The fact that they're going after a lefty really must mean the Reds brass have soured on Claussen.
Not the case at all. Is there a rule that you can't have more than one lefty in your rotation at one time?

He just needs more time to develop.

wheels
12-27-2004, 02:59 PM
Eric Milton gave up 43 homers last year.

Forty-three.

Let that sink in a bit.

Carter
12-27-2004, 02:59 PM
It seems every other season he is really on, 2005 puts him at the mark to do very well.

Petitt33
12-27-2004, 02:59 PM
Statistics
Year Team INN GS W L S K BBI HA ERA WHIP
2004 PHI 201.0 34 14 6 0 161 75 196 4.746 1.348
2003 MIN 17.0 3 1 0 0 7 1 15 2.647 0.941
2002 MIN 171.0 29 13 9 0 121 30 173 4.842 1.187
2001 MIN 220.2 34 15 7 0 157 61 222 4.332 1.285
2000 MIN 200.0 33 13 10 0 160 44 205 4.860 1.245
1999 MIN 206.1 34 7 11 0 163 63 190 4.498 1.228
1998 MIN 172.1 32 8 14 0 107 70 195 5.648 1.540
7 Seasons 1188.1 199 71 57 0 876 344 1196 4.757 1.296

Thank you!

Red Leader
12-27-2004, 03:00 PM
I'm ok with Milton, once I get over the letdown of it not being Odalis Perez, I'll be even happier. He is a lefty which we badly need. He will top our rotation and start on Opening Day.

New rotation:

1. Paul Wilson RHP
2. Eric Milton LHP
3. Aarong Harang RHP
4. Ramon Ortiz RHP
5. Luke Hudson RHP

Not bad.


I think Wilson still gets the opening day start and Milton slides in at #2. I think Harang slots at #3 out of loyalty and Ortiz goes to #4 to start the season, but I think you have all the players right. I'd love to see Claussen pitch real well out of the bullpen and take the #5 spot in June at the latest.

Dan
12-27-2004, 03:00 PM
I still think the Dunn trade will come to pass. Dunn/Ortiz to AZ for Vasquez/$$/prospect with Johnson going to NY.

Vasquez
Milton
Wilson
Harang
Claussen

Best rotation since late in '95, if it comes about.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 03:01 PM
He has some upside. Has always had a good WHIp and H/IP ratio. His problem has been an ERA inflated by too many gopherballs. Actually GABP is not as bad a HR park as the Homerdome and Gopherball East in Philly.

Thanks for the encouraging word, flyer. He does have a better than average WHIP and a decent K/9 and K/BB ratio. Just hope he was in the $4-5M range. Guys who give up a lot of HRs are rough sledding for me, though.

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 03:01 PM
My source has confirmed, it is Milton, and press conference at 4:15, which you knew by now. I'll be honest, I originally thought it was Millwood, partly my fault, and my source was a bit confused, but I still think it's a step in the right direction. It at least shows that the front office is willing to spend to get some quality people in the organization. Although I'm not sure, but I don't think the contract is going to make some of us happy. I hear it is quite large, no numbers given though.

Carter
12-27-2004, 03:02 PM
The fact that Milton wanted to come to the Reds says something, as fans we should be thrilled. The Reds front office did something, I am 19 years old and this is the best thing I have witnessed the Reds really do.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:02 PM
Thanks for the encouraging word, flyer. He does have a better than average WHIP and a decent K/9 and K/BB ratio. Just hope he was in the $4-5M range. Guys who give up a lot of HRs are rough sledding for me, though.

The one other upside is that he has never had any arm problems. His missed season in 2003 was from a knee injury.

Caseyfan21
12-27-2004, 03:02 PM
It seems to me with the signings of Milton & Randa, that there will eventually be some type of corresponding move. It just feels like the front office would like to move an outfielder (Kearns?) and one of the younger pitchers to go after another player. With Harang, Claussen, Hudson, and Hancock all fighting for 2 spots, it seems as if one could be packaged with Kearns to return something of value. What that would be is anyone's guess. I'd assume another starting pitcher but maybe a shortstop or prospects might not be out of the question. I don't have any inside info. or any sources, just a gut feeling that the wheeling and dealing of the offseason isn't done yet.

Jpup
12-27-2004, 03:03 PM
Eric Milton

161 K/75 BB

I like that ratio.

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:03 PM
I don't even wanna know how much they're giving him.

Yipes.

Falls City Beer
12-27-2004, 03:03 PM
Milton's weird--he largely keeps people off base, but he gives up dingers like they were Pez.

GAB is bigger than the Phils new keep, so that might help him a bit in that department, but still. It may be a waste of money, but Milton is still probably better than anything else on the staff, even Wilson (last year's ERA notwithstanding). Hey, it's not my money!

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:04 PM
The fact that Milton wanted to come to the Reds says something, as fans we should be thrilled. The Reds front office did something, I am 19 years old and this is the best thing I have witnessed the Reds really do.

I feel sorry for you.

Aronchis
12-27-2004, 03:04 PM
The Reds probably hope that Milton and Claussen will tie up the Left handing starting pitching for the next few years while Wilson and Ortiz are phased out for Gardner and Pauly(along with the Bubba wild card). The real wild card for next season however is Hudson. Harang looks to be on his way out which I think will be sooner than many people may suspect.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:04 PM
I still think the Dunn trade will come to pass. Dunn/Ortiz to AZ for Vasquez/$$/prospect with Johnson going to NY.

That would be giving Dunn away. Trading Ortiz for Moseley was bad enough in light of this signing. Trading away for a seriously overpriced starter won't solve anything. Especially a guy who was seriously overworked(Vazquez) at a young age.

Bill
12-27-2004, 03:04 PM
Careful what you wish for- Lindner opens his pockets and gives us Ortiz and Milton. Money in the hands of fools perhaps.

Milton never did get his 21 mill from the Yanks-hopefully he "settled" for 15.

CTA513
12-27-2004, 03:05 PM
I don't even wanna know how much they're giving him.

Yipes.

12 million a year for 3 years.

;)

deltachi8
12-27-2004, 03:06 PM
Reds GM Dan O'Brien today announced the signing of free agent All-Star LHP Eric Milton to a three-year contract, with the player holding an opt-out provision for 2007.

From Cincinnatireds.com The story is not posted yet, just the headline.

Playadlc
12-27-2004, 03:06 PM
Come on, Milton isn't that bad. If it's around a 3 year 13/15 milllion contract I will be happy.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:06 PM
It seems to me with the signings of Milton & Randa, that there will eventually be some type of corresponding move.

If there is a corresponding move it will be simply to unload salary.

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 03:06 PM
Wheels, why are you so opposed to this signing?

Caseyfan21
12-27-2004, 03:06 PM
Carter,

I am 19 also and echo the same feelings. Other than the Griffey trade and sign, this is the biggest signing by the Reds I can clearly remember. It's a sad realization, but exciting that the front office is finally stepping up to the plate.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 03:06 PM
Harang looks to be on his way out which I think will be sooner than many people may suspect.What in the world makes you come to that conclusion? He showed improvement, esp. after the stint on the DL. I think he looks very good as a steady #4 pitcher.

Caveat Emperor
12-27-2004, 03:06 PM
My source has confirmed, it is Milton, and press conference at 4:15, which you knew by now. I'll be honest, I originally thought it was Millwood, partly my fault, and my source was a bit confused, but I still think it's a step in the right direction. It at least shows that the front office is willing to spend to get some quality people in the organization. Although I'm not sure, but I don't think the contract is going to make some of us happy. I hear it is quite large, no numbers given though.

It'll only make me mad if it is more money than either Matt Clement got or Odalis Perez is going to get.

Pitching costs money, that's a fact of baseball.

-cE

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 03:07 PM
Come on folks, how is this a disappointment? Does it not upgrade or staff? Does it not show us that the front office is willing to spend some money? Hey, hopefully we aren't done, but I don't see how anyone can be disappointed with what we had. And comparatively where we are now. I believe it is obviously a better position.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:07 PM
Eric Milton

161 K/75 BB

I like that ratio.

Need to cut those walks down by about 20.

Jpup
12-27-2004, 03:07 PM
I feel sorry for you.

Why the negative vibe from you?

This is the best player the Reds could have signed. Millwood is going to Cleveland, Perez to New York. It was either Derek Lowe or Eric Milton. I would rather have Eric Milton.

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 03:07 PM
Anyone have Milton's stats from last year?

Sure.

.810 OPS Against.

Of the 86 MLB ERA Qualifiers, Milton ranked 73rd.

He's a three-run HR waiting to happen.

A Wilson/Ortiz/Milton 1-2-3 is one of the most putrid rotation front three combos I've ever seen. At three years, this is a worse than the Lidle signing. It's worse than the Ortiz signing. It's the worst thing Dan O'Brien has ever done.

He can go now.

PressBox
12-27-2004, 03:07 PM
I look at it this way, with the addition of Milton, the Reds rotation is better today than it was yesterday.

The additions of Weber, Mercker, and Weathers make the bullpen better than it was last year.

The addition of Randa makes the third base defense better than it has been in a few years, plus it gives the Reds a bat that is fundamentally sound.

So maybe the Reds haven't signed any clydesdales, but I sure like the feeling of taking a step in the right direction. These are good moves, and they give me some genuine enthusiasm for the upcoming season.

Kudos to Lindner, Allen, and O'Brien. I never thought I'd say that to Lindner and Allen.

Playadlc
12-27-2004, 03:08 PM
Bottom line, Milton will now be the best SP on our staff.

CougarQuest
12-27-2004, 03:09 PM
I think WLW said how much the contract was but the mailman showed up and the dog barked like the house was under attack, so I missed the amount.

MasonBuzz3
12-27-2004, 03:09 PM
From Cincinnatireds.com The story is not posted yet, just the headline.
rest of story now up http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cin/news/cin_press_release.jsp?ymd=20041227&content_id=926144&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp
financial terms not released
Reds also brought Jacob Cruz back with a minor league deal

deltachi8
12-27-2004, 03:09 PM
Ryan, thanks for the updates all day, it was great anticipation.

Spending money is one thing, spending it wisely is quite another. If the number is large, i don't think its a wise signing.

Then again, who is to say the Reds didn't try for a Millwood, Perez, etc and get rejected and this is what they could do?

zombie-a-go-go
12-27-2004, 03:09 PM
I'm all about this signing.

Some people will complain about anything. So Milton's not the pitcher you wanted. He's not the guy I wanted either; that would be Clement. But Clement's off the market.

Hell, Garbage Men make more money than I do, but I wouldn't want to be one because the job stinks.

Consider that when you start crying that O'Brien didn't get Perez or whoever.

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:10 PM
Wheels, why are you so opposed to this signing?

4.76 career ERA.

Tons of gopher balls to go along with Ortiz, who gives up tons of gopherballs.


43 of 'em last year.


Maybe Flyer's on to something about his WHIP, and the fact the GAB is HR neutral, but I'm sure the Reds payed a hefty price to get him.

Once again, calling the Reds cheap is a cop out. It's all about giving the money to the right people...

Milton ain't one of 'em.

Kudos to Carl, but a big ol' gas face goes out to Mr. O'Brien.

Jpup
12-27-2004, 03:11 PM
CINCINNATI -- Cincinnati Reds general manager Dan O'Brien today announced the signing of free agent All-Star LHP Eric Milton to a 3-year contract, with the player holding an opt-out provision for the 2007 season. Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.

Milton, 29, in his Major League career is 71-57 with a 4.76 ERA in 200 appearances, including 199 starts, for the Minnesota Twins and Philadelphia Phillies. In his previous 6 full seasons, he averaged 12 wins, 33 starts and 195 innings.

In 2001 he was named to the American League All-Star team. In 3 postseason appearances, all for the Twins in 2002 and 2003, Milton is 1-0 with a 1.65 ERA.

Against the Angels on September 11, 1999, Milton had a career-high 13 strikeouts while throwing the fifth no-hitter in Twins history.

Milton spent last season with the Phillies and went 14-6 with a 4.75 ERA in 34 starts. He led the staff in victories, starts, innings pitched (201.0) and strikeouts (161). In his first season in the National League, Milton ranked sixth in the circuit with a .700 winning percentage.

Milton is the sixth player acquired by the Reds since the club re-signed RHP Paul Wilson to a 2-year contract, with a club option for 2007, on November 30. RHP Ramon Ortiz was acquired from the Anaheim Angels on December 14, followed by the free-agent signings of RHP David Weathers and RHP Ben Weber on December 15, LHP Kent Mercker on December 20 and 3B Joe Randa on Tuesday. Also on Tuesday, the Reds avoided arbitration by agreeing to contract terms with starting 2B D'Angelo Jimenez, who in 2004 produced the best season of his big league career.

Also today, the Reds signed to a minor league contract and invited to Major League Spring Training camp 1B/OF Jacob Cruz. Cruz, 31, last season appeared in 96 games for the Reds and led the club's pinch hitters in hits, at bats and RBI. His .327 batting average with runners in scoring position was second-best among all Reds batters with at least 50 at bats.

Carter
12-27-2004, 03:11 PM
Carter,

I am 19 also and echo the same feelings. Other than the Griffey trade and sign, this is the biggest signing by the Reds I can clearly remember. It's a sad realization, but exciting that the front office is finally stepping up to the plate.


CF21, the Vaughn trade was exciting also, 99' happened by accident with a little Magic, 05' should be an exciting season, I was to young to really remember the 90' series, 95' was fun to watch but I was only 10. I am excited sure I would have loved to see the Reds put the money from Wilson, Ortiz, Milton in Clement and Perez. But come on, this is the Reds. Before this season they didn't show or express and signs of wanting to contend. To me, Dano did something Jimbo never did. He told the truth, remember when Dano sat down with Casey?

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 03:12 PM
The guys last 4 complete seasons, he's won, 13, 15, 13 and 14 games, who wouldn't be happy with that? Give the guy and the organization a bit of a break here folks, I just don't think there is any way to please some of you. The front office goes and and makes some strides, and still people are upset, it's a lose lose for some of you no matter what. Someone will always twist out what the front office does as bad. Be optimistic, the team we love is now better than it was at the start of the off season, is that not a good thing?

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:13 PM
the fact the GAB is HR neutral, but I'm sure the Reds payed a hefty price to get him.


GABP plays as a slight HR park(~5% as I recall).

I think to see improvement in Milton(29 is about the right age to acquire ) he need a lowering of the HR rate and BB rate.

Aronchis
12-27-2004, 03:14 PM
What in the world makes you come to that conclusion? He showed improvement, esp. after the stint on the DL. I think he looks very good as a steady #4 pitcher.

With three "Vets" ahead of him, he has to contend with Hudson and Claussen and with 2 pitchers who ripped up high A ball last year(Gardner looked solid in his AA stint as well) along with a prospect pitcher who struggled because of a torn tendon in his ankle while already having pitched a full season in AA before hand and could EASILY rebound quickly. If any one of them get hot by summer, you never know.

Harang is under pressure. He doesn't have Hudson's arm or Claussen's nastiness and we have not even mentioned Hancock. Just because he was "solid" last year, doesn't mean he was good or will he be in the rotation all season this year. I think the ideal rotation to start out with is Milton,Wilson,Ortiz,Claussen and Hudson. You put all your older,best talents into a pile and see the end result. Aaron simply doesn't have their ability. It may not happen out of spring, but the Ides of March are nearing for Harang.

MWM
12-27-2004, 03:15 PM
Why are people so thrilled about this signing? Because they all recognize the name Eric Milton and his named has been attached to some hype in the past. I can't imagine how anyone who actually took the time to look up the guy's PERFORMANCE could be excited about him being signed for 3 years. Seriously, the guy has pitched 6 full seasons in the big leagues and has never had a good season. The closest he ever came was 2001 when he was slightly above average.

Just like the other moves that have been made this offseason, this move confirms even more that these are the types of players DanO and Hn Allen honestly think are steps in the right direction.

This one isn't THAT bad if the price tag is only $4mm per. But it's not one that's going to get me excited.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:15 PM
The guys last 4 complete seasons, he's won, 13, 15, 13 and 14 games, who wouldn't be happy with that?

Forget the wins. Jimmah once won 15 for the Reds.

He has some upside and is known to have "good stuff". His performance has never matched his talent to this point. Hopefully the Reds didn't pay too much.

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:16 PM
If you're just going by his record to make yourself happy, that's fine with me, but if you look at all of the other peripherals, it's not such a rosey picture.

Maybe I'd be happier if I didn't pay attention to that stuff.

Phhhl
12-27-2004, 03:16 PM
Good signing, and he comes cheap if early reports are correct. The gopher balls are disturbing, but he has maintained a good whip throughout his career. The days of sub-4 era's from two or three pitchers on a staff are over, for most teams. The Phillies were not especially good last year, and he managed 14 wins. I would be ecstatic with just a slight improvement on his numbers in 2005. A good mentor for Claussen too. Milton could keep the club in a lot of games, eat innings and keep the older bullpen fresh during stretches when we need it. Not too shabby.

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 03:16 PM
You people are freaking unbelievable. You ***** about every signing the Reds make. You ***** that they do nothing. You ***** that the offseason is a failure because they didn't upgrade the starting pitching. When they do upgrade the starting pitching with a nice, proven Major League pitcher what do you do? *****.

You guys could find something in the Bible and complain about it.

Unreal.

Jpup
12-27-2004, 03:17 PM
Why are people so thrilled about this signing? Because they all recognize the name Eric Milton and his named has been attached to some hype in the past. I can't imagine how anyone who actually took the time to look up the guy's PERFORMANCE could be excited about him being signed for 3 years. Seriously, the guy has pitched 6 full seasons in the big leagues and has never had a good season. The closest he ever came was 2001 when he was slightly above average.

Just like the other moves that have been made this offseason, this move confirms even more that these are the types of players DanO and Hn Allen honestly think are steps in the right direction.

This one isn't THAT bad if the price tag is only $4mm per. But it's not one that's going to get me excited.

He's 29. He's Left-Handed. He's a proven Winner.

The Reds are actually trying to contend. For my money, it's a lot better that what we have seen by the river the last several seasons.

Donder
12-27-2004, 03:17 PM
Forget the wins. Jimmah once won 15 for the Reds.

He has some upside and is known to have "good stuff". His performance has never matched his talent to this point. Hopefully the Reds didn't pay too much.

I think the key word here is once

44Magnum
12-27-2004, 03:18 PM
Woo Hoo!!!!!!!

RedsFan75
12-27-2004, 03:18 PM
I'm excited about it. I was disappointed at the Moseley trade, because I was thinking this to be a re-building year, and was saying to give the youngsters a chance.

However the moves that have been made, with Ortiz, Wilson, and now Milton, offereing a veteran staff, Randa anchoring a solid 3rd, Jiminez solid at 2nd, looks to be an interesting year. Looking forward to opening day more than ever.

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 03:18 PM
The guys last 4 complete seasons, he's won, 13, 15, 13 and 14 games, who wouldn't be happy with that? Give the guy and the organization a bit of a break here folks, I just don't think there is any way to please some of you. The front office goes and and makes some strides, and still people are upset, it's a lose lose for some of you no matter what. Someone will always twist out what the front office does as bad. Be optimistic, the team we love is now better than it was at the start of the off season, is that not a good thing?

In 2004, Eric Milton received 6.54 Runs per game in support- tied for 9th in MLB.

I'm always happy when an offense scores over 6 Runs per game. It would just be nice to have a pitcher who didn't require it.

Falls City Beer
12-27-2004, 03:19 PM
Why are people so thrilled about this signing? Because they all recognize the name Eric Milton and his named has been attached to some hype in the past. I can't imagine how anyone who actually took the time to look up the guy's PERFORMANCE could be excited about him being signed for 3 years. Seriously, the guy has pitched 6 full seasons in the big leagues and has never had a good season. The closest he ever came was 2001 when he was slightly above average.

Just like the other moves that have been made this offseason, this move confirms even more that these are the types of players DanO and Hn Allen honestly think are steps in the right direction.

This one isn't THAT bad if the price tag is only $4mm per. But it's not one that's going to get me excited.

Well, the guy's two seasons prior to his egregious 2004 season, he posted OPS Against of .745, which is fairly solid in the junior circuit (actually very solid). He simply has to keep the ball down to have any success. The hyperbole that this is the worst signing ever is absurd. Not a great signing, but a good one.

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 03:19 PM
Just like the other moves that have been made this offseason, this move confirms even more that these are the types of players DanO and Hn Allen honestly think are steps in the right direction.
So you don't think the moves the Reds have made this winter are a step in the right direction?

I don't know what to say to that.

Stewie
12-27-2004, 03:19 PM
He has some upside. Has always had a good WHIp and H/IP ratio. His problem has been an ERA inflated by too many gopherballs. Actually GABP is not as bad a HR park as the Homerdome and Gopherball East in Philly.

FWIW, Milton allowed more homers on the road last year than he did at home. 20 homers allowed at home, 23 on the road.

CougarQuest
12-27-2004, 03:19 PM
I like Milton, but I want to see the contract numbers first

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 03:19 PM
If you're just going by his record to make yourself happy, that's fine with me, but if you look at all of the other peripherals, it's not such a rosey picture.

Maybe I'd be happier if I didn't pay attention to that stuff.

Ok, but WHIP, ERA and SO's don't get you to the playoffs, Wins do. I understand what you're saying, but the guy has consistently had good win numbers. Jimmah had one good year, Milton has had four good win years in a row.

Wins are what I want to see.

Carter
12-27-2004, 03:20 PM
Take into consideration what Don Gullett might help him improve on?

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:20 PM
FWIW, Milton allowed more homers on the road last year than he did at home. 20 homers allowed at home, 23 on the road.

You've had the opportunity to watch the guy for a full season, Stewie.

What's your take?

traderumor
12-27-2004, 03:21 PM
Ryan,

I join others in giving you thanks for the heads up.

As for Eric Milton, folks are concerned about the number of homers he has given up. Those who are upset are very sophisticated and knowledgeable and are looking beyond the number of wins a pitcher has posted. Also, I think many were thinking Perez, who has significantly better career numbers than Milton.

With that said, I think the 43 homers allowed last year would scare anyone, but that ballpark had all pitchers getting whiplash. In the Homerdome, he gave up a modest number some years. One can hope that he can keep the ball in GABP a little better.

volmanac
12-27-2004, 03:21 PM
great signing!

so excited i had to register just to post.

wolfboy
12-27-2004, 03:22 PM
I can't understand some of the negative posts about this and other signings the Reds have made. Once the details of this contract come out, people will be complaining like crazy because a better pitcher got similar money. Pitchers like Clement, Perez, etc.. have preferences. Unfortunately, the Reds are not a preference of a lot of upper tier free agents. I think the organization is trying to make a push to improve the team, but they have to overpay for mediocre talent. They may not have made the "moneyball" moves that some would like to see, but I think a lot of times it's easier said than done. A year ago, we were given Corey Lidle and John Vanderwal. At the very least, we have more to talk about this offseason.

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:22 PM
Ok, but WHIP, ERA and SO's don't get you to the playoffs, Wins do. I understand what you're saying, but the guy has consistently had good win numbers. Jimmah had one good year, Milton has had four good win years in a row.

Wins are what I want to see.

Wins are a team statistic, like RBI.

A crappy pitcher gets a ton of run support, and that makes him good?

Not buying it.

MWM
12-27-2004, 03:23 PM
The guys last 4 complete seasons, he's won, 13, 15, 13 and 14 games, who wouldn't be happy with that? Give the guy and the organization a bit of a break here folks, I just don't think there is any way to please some of you. The front office goes and and makes some strides, and still people are upset, it's a lose lose for some of you no matter what. Someone will always twist out what the front office does as bad.

That's not really a fair statement. Look at Miton's career performance. You act as if he's clearly a good pithcer. He's not a good pitcher, so why criticize those who are willing to say it?


the team we love is now better than it was at the start of the off season, is that not a good thing?

First, I'm not really convinced that they're any better. And I've said in several threads already, but what good is being better when you're still going to be 4th place at best? People in Cincinnati have really developed low expectations over the years. the FO strategy is working perfectly - make a few moves with some recognizable names and the people will think you're doing great things. Doesn't work for me.

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 03:23 PM
Well, the guy's two seasons prior to his egregious 2004 season, he posted OPS Against of .745, which is fairly solid in the junior circuit (actually very solid). He simply has to keep the ball down to have any success. The hyperbole that this is the worst signing ever is absurd. Not a great signing, but a good one.

An OPS Against of .745 is an average OPS against either circuit.

And Milton can't keep the ball down. He's an extreme Fly Ball pitcher (career .59 G/F rate- career high .67).

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 03:23 PM
Well now that my celebrity status is gone, I'll disappear in to oblivion again. :mhcky21:

At least now you all know I wasn't pulling your leg. lol Hope it was fun for all of you to track, and hopefully I'll have more juicy news in the future for you all.

RedsFan75
12-27-2004, 03:24 PM
Got an email from my co-worker in Philly..


Aren't the Reds done fleecing Ed Wade and the Phillies yet? After all you guys got Anderson Machado, the Phillies wiz kid with the glove at ShortStop

:D :MandJ:

RANDY IN INDY
12-27-2004, 03:25 PM
I think it is a good signing. I just hope the front office doesn't do something stupid with Dunn or Kearns. I have been critical of O'Brien in the past, but I think he's doing his best to improve the team with the latest moves. Heaven knows, a lot of the top tier guys are not going to come to Cincinnati to play for what the Reds can afford to pay. Again, I hope this doesn't signal the need to do something stupid with Dunn or Kearns.

RANDY IN INDY
12-27-2004, 03:26 PM
Thanks for the early scoop, Ryan. Keep 'em coming. :thumbup:

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:27 PM
Wins are a team statistic, like RBI.

A crappy pitcher gets a ton of run support, and that makes him good?

Not buying it.

His BPIs have always been pretty good other than the inflated HR rate. Maybe talent will finally match performance now that he is with the Reds.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - make sure you sing it.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 03:27 PM
Why are people so thrilled about this signing? Because they all recognize the name Eric Milton and his named has been attached to some hype in the past. I can't imagine how anyone who actually took the time to look up the guy's PERFORMANCE could be excited about him being signed for 3 years. Seriously, the guy has pitched 6 full seasons in the big leagues and has never had a good season. The closest he ever came was 2001 when he was slightly above average.

Just like the other moves that have been made this offseason, this move confirms even more that these are the types of players DanO and Hn Allen honestly think are steps in the right direction.

This one isn't THAT bad if the price tag is only $4mm per. But it's not one that's going to get me excited.

MWM,

To be fair, Milton does have some decent WHIP and K rates. Still, it comes down to $ on this one. I was thinking Perez when the fur started flying, so Milton is a bit of a let down. Like Ortiz, his wart is the gopher ball.

writerdan33
12-27-2004, 03:28 PM
Last Year's Opening Day Rotation - Wilson, Lidle, Haynes, Acevedo, Harang

This Year's projected Opening Day Rotation - Wilson, Milton, Ortiz, Hudson, Harang/Claussen.

This isn't improvement?

Earth-shattering? No. But based on 10 years of watching this team slash payroll, I'll take a moment to get just a little excited about the potential of this rotation; even if the best you can say about it is that it will eat up significantly more innings than last year's hodge-podge of starters, thus saving wear and tear on the bullpen.

That's always a good thing.

MWM
12-27-2004, 03:28 PM
You people are freaking unbelievable. You ***** about every signing the Reds make. You ***** that they do nothing. You ***** that the offseason is a failure because they didn't upgrade the starting pitching. When they do upgrade the starting pitching with a nice, proven Major League pitcher what do you do? *****.

If I have a 286 prcessor in my PC, a 386 is an upgrade, but it's still a pretty crappy computer.

Please tell me what "proven Major League pitcher" means. Seriously, I'm more than willing to listen. Tell me what has led you to believe the guy is something we should get excited about.

I can guarantee you that most people happy about this have never bothered actually checking the guy's historical performance. All they see is that it's a guy they recognize who at one point was supposed to be pretty good.


You guys could find something in the Bible and complain about it.

I find plenty wrong there, but that's a discussion for another time and place.

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 03:28 PM
Geeze, looks like some people need to go be Yankee fans so they can be happy with everything. :dflynn: I myself will stick to supporting my Reds, well and yes, I'm a closet Yankee fan but Reds are always first!!

Petitt33
12-27-2004, 03:28 PM
Ryan, thanks for the entertainment you provided me on a very boring day... :thumbup:

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:28 PM
His BPIs have always been pretty good other than the inflated HR rate. Maybe talent will finally match performance now that he is with the Reds.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - make sure you sing it.

:MandJ:

Jpup
12-27-2004, 03:29 PM
Eric Milton

vs Lefty .252
vs Righty .256
total: .254

Odalis Perez

vs. Lefty .270
vs. Righty .243
toatl: .257

larryboy
12-27-2004, 03:29 PM
Wins are more dependent on his support and not really the best reflection of his performance but his team's. ERA, WHIP, etc... are better ways to look at his performance.
I think it is a good signing considerring the conditions the Reds operate under. I'm not overly excited but its improvement and his age is more in line with the team. Reds need to up the budget cut off some of the older parts with big contracts before great signings can occur. Still I think good, not great. Just wish more effort was put into changing the conditions by taking a more dramatic action now and not miss an oppotrtunity while we have some good young talent.

MWM
12-27-2004, 03:30 PM
He's 29.

True.


He's Left-Handed.

True


He's a proven Winner.

FALSE!

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 03:30 PM
Good point Dan. Milton and Ortiz are innings eaters. That will allow us to rest our improved bullpen making them even better.

It's really a good signing.

Jpup
12-27-2004, 03:31 PM
True.



True



FALSE!

71 Wins
57 Losses

How is that not a proven winner?

CTA513
12-27-2004, 03:31 PM
Geeze, looks like some people need to go be Yankee fans so they can be happy with everything. :dflynn: I myself will stick to supporting my Reds, well and yes, I'm a closet Yankee fan but Reds are always first!!


:gac:

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 03:31 PM
MWM? 71-57 doesn't make you a winner?

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:32 PM
I think it is a good signing.

I have to see the $$$ first. From a baseball standpoint he is an improvement over last year. However a deal cannot be judged outside of the $$$.

sammonator
12-27-2004, 03:32 PM
Thanks Ryan for the scoop. You should have called and told me though. I am upset about that. :D Great signing by the Reds, I actually can't believe that we are actually spending money.

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 03:32 PM
Eric Milton

vs Lefty .252
vs Righty .256
total: .254

Odalis Perez

vs. Lefty .270
vs. Righty .243
toatl: .257
Hmm...intesting stat.

Tony Cloninger
12-27-2004, 03:32 PM
AGAIN....how do we know Perez was not offered a contract and said NO?

But no....it is again DO fault that we signed the wrong LHP.

I wished he could have signed Perez too.....but i would rather have Milton than Lowe also.

Hopefully when Graves comes off the books and Griffey is healthy enough to be traded (big if) they will have more money next year to sign Dunn LT and get an even better pitcher.

For now though....43 HR or not.....this guy is not that bad of a signing at all.

Maybe they are going to raise payroll around there but not announce it. Just do it here and there without any fanfare.

Falls City Beer
12-27-2004, 03:33 PM
Well, everyone had nutty over guys like Jeff Suppan last year--and the Reds essentially got themselves a lefty Jeff Suppan. Take it for what it's worth.

Benihana
12-27-2004, 03:33 PM
I agree with the sentiment that most people on this board are malcontents and will always find something to b-tch about. Grass is always greener folks. The fact of the matter is the "small market" "miserly" Reds just signed a proven left handed pitcher with the same career ERA as your beloved Paul Wilson. Oh yeah, and he's younger. Did I mention we beat out the Yankees for his services?

If they dont sign him, its more unproven/AAAA/retreads vying for rotation spots, while everyone here b-tches that we need some veteran leadership, or we don't spend any $$, or we need a left hander. This is much better than Derek Lowe...put me down as IN FAVOR of this signing, and DanO this offseason.

BUTLER REDSFAN
12-27-2004, 03:33 PM
just herd em say it on 700wlw--eric milton at 230pm

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 03:34 PM
Thanks Ryan for the scoop. You should have called and told me though. I am upset about that. :D Great signing by the Reds, I actually can't believe that we are actually spending money.


Do I know you Sam? :confused:

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:34 PM
For now though....43 HR or not.....this guy is not that bad of a signing at all.


True from a pure baseball standpoint. Unless the Reds unload somebody the payroll is likely be around $60M I would guess.

MWM
12-27-2004, 03:35 PM
So you don't think the moves the Reds have made this winter are a step in the right direction?

Not even close. Not a sinlge move made is a step towards a team capable of contending for the playoffs now or in the future. If he made a move that moved us in that direction either now or in the future, I would applaud that move. I have different standards than you obviously do. Making a team that has lost 96, 84, 93, and 86 games over the last four years a "little" better with short-term moves that don't help in the long term, that doesn't mean much to me.

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:35 PM
You know what's not fair?

Some feel they can cuss at others that don't feel this is a good signing.
Some people can tell others to root for another team and make assumptions about the general dispostion of others.

All without having one shred of data to back up their opinion.

I'd be willing to wager that some of you will be first in line to kick DanO in the tush come mid july though, or call for a boycott.

That's okay though, I'll continue to make observations based on some modicum of fact, learning new stuff every day from some of the brilliant, sophisticated baseball fans on this forum, and enjoying myself all the while.

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 03:35 PM
Eric Milton

vs Lefty .252
vs Righty .256
total: .254

Odalis Perez

vs. Lefty .270
vs. Righty .243
toatl: .257

Eric Milton:

2001- .751 OPS Against
2002- .724 OPS Against
2004- .810 OPS Against

Odalis Perez:

2002- .605 OPS Against
2003- .753 OPS Against
2004- .709 OPS Against

Cory Lidle (pre-2004):

2001- .688 OPS Against
2002- .684 OPS Against
2003- .801 OPS Against

See any patterns there?

Reds Fanatic
12-27-2004, 03:36 PM
I think it is a good signing. I know we all wanted Perez but I read he wants the same money Kris Benson and Matt Clement got in their contracts. The Reds are not going to pay those salaries. While Milton is not perfect it is an upgrade for the pitching staff.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:37 PM
There was no way that 4 young pitchers(Hudson, Harang, Claussen, Hancock) were going to come through and pitch well. Now at least the Reds have fostered some competition and maybe between the above four can get some solid pitching.

Can't be worse than Acevedo, Haynes and Lidle were for the Reds.

westofyou
12-27-2004, 03:37 PM
Lefthanded starters are a rarity, Milton has some good rate stats, does keep the ball up too often and did give up more Road HR's last year than home (though home index equaled Coors in HR Factor at 123)

Historically LH pitchers get their stuff wrapped up better as the hit their late 20's, early 30's. Soooooooo that's a straw one could grasp at.

In the last 30 seasons only 19 LH have pitched more than 800 innings before the age of 30, Milton is one of two guys who had an ERA below league average.



INNINGS PITCHED IP GS BB/9 IP SO/9 IP BR/9 IP ERA
1 Frank Viola 1858 271 2.65 6.23 11.76 0.25
2 Frank Tanana 1815.1 254 2.40 6.46 10.97 0.60
3 John Candelaria 1613.2 243 2.11 5.37 10.62 0.51
4 Greg Swindell 1595.1 236 1.88 6.16 11.30 0.24
5 John Smiley 1359.1 193 2.40 5.75 11.02 0.09
6 Vida Blue 1351 182 2.86 5.47 11.40 0.40
7 Mike Flanagan 1244 179 2.71 5.56 11.68 0.17
8 Tom Browning 1211.1 184 2.50 5.02 11.12 -.07
9 Denny Neagle 1199.1 169 2.54 6.92 11.53 0.37
10 Eric Milton 1188.1 199 2.61 6.63 11.82 -.14
11 Britt Burns 1094.1 161 2.98 6.04 11.77 0.36
12 Jon Matlack 1014.2 139 1.99 5.52 10.82 0.56
13 Mark Mulder 1003 150 2.67 5.99 11.86 0.67
14 Mark Buehrle 987.1 139 2.19 5.30 11.42 0.79
15 Jarrod Washburn 976 154 2.74 5.58 11.66 0.52
16 Ron Guidry 972 120 2.79 7.57 10.35 1.28
17 Teddy Higuera 949.2 130 2.68 7.26 10.55 0.96
18 Donovan Osborne 810.2 132 2.45 5.71 11.68 0.16
19 Odalis Perez 803 126 2.51 6.52 11.29 0.29

sammonator
12-27-2004, 03:37 PM
maybe i am thinking of a different ryan. sorry man!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Ryan I am thinking of is my wife's cousin. Sorry dude.

Falls City Beer
12-27-2004, 03:38 PM
Eric Milton:

2001- .751 OPS Against
2002- .724 OPS Against
2004- .810 OPS Against

Odalis Perez:

2002- .605 OPS Against
2003- .753 OPS Against
2004- .709 OPS Against

Cory Lidle (pre-2004):

2001- .688 OPS Against
2002- .684 OPS Against
2003- .801 OPS Against

See any patterns there?


Not really, just that O. Perez got rocked in Dodger Stadium for some reason in 2003--was he hurt that season? I can't remember.

RANDY IN INDY
12-27-2004, 03:38 PM
At least the Moneyball GM's keep the site in a constant state of "stir". :MandJ:

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:39 PM
He's a lefty and at least Left Center field is the big part of the ball park.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 03:39 PM
That's not really a fair statement. Look at Miton's career performance. You act as if he's clearly a good pithcer. He's not a good pitcher, so why criticize those who are willing to say it?



First, I'm not really convinced that they're any better. And I've said in several threads already, but what good is being better when you're still going to be 4th place at best? People in Cincinnati have really developed low expectations over the years. the FO strategy is working perfectly - make a few moves with some recognizable names and the people will think you're doing great things. Doesn't work for me.

I don't think It's low expectations, but folks that are less sophisticated at identifying good ballplayers than you are. I don't think the Reds are trying to dupe anyone, which I think is your implication, but are honestly trying to improve the team.

Your disagreement is with the choices they make--I think its unfair to question their motives as purposefully fooling unsophisticated fans. I also will always cut them some slack for making choices that are actually available to them, while sometimes this board tends to operate as if all options are available to them and they simply don't choose the right one.

I still want to see the contract.

MWM
12-27-2004, 03:40 PM
MWM? 71-57 doesn't make you a winner?

Well, look a little deeper than wins and losses at the things the pitcher can actually control and then get back to me.

vic715
12-27-2004, 03:42 PM
I wish it were Perez too but I would take Milton over Millwood or Lowe. He was the second winningest lefty in the NL only Randy Johnson won more.
Watch season ticket sales shoot up.

top6
12-27-2004, 03:43 PM
FWIW, Milton allowed more homers on the road last year than he did at home. 20 homers allowed at home, 23 on the road.

5 of those home runs on the road can be accounted for by 1 game in Colorado and 1 game in Houston, FWIW.

Red Leader
12-27-2004, 03:43 PM
Did anyone post that Milton made $9M last year in PHI?

I'm thinking a 3 yr / $23M contract is the low side of what to expect.

MWM
12-27-2004, 03:44 PM
At least the Moneyball GM's keep the site in a constant state of "stir". :MandJ:

You love these little "holier-than-thou" comments, don't you? You haven't learned anything new about the game of baseball in years. Now THAT is sad.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:44 PM
Milton has an opt-out clause for 2007. I suppose that could be called a player option.

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 03:44 PM
You know what's not fair?

Some feel they can cuss at others that don't feel this is a good signing.
Some people can tell others to root for another team and make assumptions about the general dispostion of others.

All without having one shred of data to back up their opinion.

I'd be willing to wager that some of you will be first in line to kick DanO in the tush come mid july though, or call for a boycott.

That's okay though, I'll continue to make observations based on some modicum of fact, learning new stuff every day from some of the brilliant, sophisticated baseball fans on this forum, and enjoying myself all the while.

I told you what stats I looked at, Some are good, some are bad. I still feel he is better than what we started out with, and I'll be the first to tell you that I'm not a big fan of Dan O', but I will never support a boycott, ever! It's just humorous to me that this board is so easily divided. I made the root for another team statement in jest. It's called a joke. Ever heard of one or a sense of humor for that matter? Come on wheels. I respect your opinion man, you are entitled to it. All I stated is that I just don't understand what would make some of you naysayers happy. And if what would make you happy is realistic at all.

westofyou
12-27-2004, 03:45 PM
What GM said this.

"I've had to do a number of unpopular things here , and it's probably not over. We're not going to do things just to be popular. Ultimately, we're going to do what is right for the Blanks."

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:46 PM
Did anyone post that Milton made $9M last year in PHI?

I'm thinking a 3 yr / $23M contract is the low side of what to expect.

Actually that was probably what he was originally shooting for. The fact that he signed with the Reds leads me to believe it will be under $20M. Hopefully well under.

RANDY IN INDY
12-27-2004, 03:46 PM
the brilliant, sophisticated baseball fans on this forum

Man, I think we are nearing the necessity for a separate forum for folks who qualify for this title. My credentials will probably not get me in. ;) :MandJ:

1990WorldChamps
12-27-2004, 03:48 PM
Now we shall see if Gullet is worth keeping around.

Redmachine2003
12-27-2004, 03:49 PM
I think it was a good signing. This isn't a great rotation but it is not a bad one. IMO about every one of these pitchers will keep the Reds in the game and give our offense a chance to win the game. With the up grade in the bullpen this offseason had to be the best in years for the Reds. :thumbup: :thumbup: DanO has filled every hole this team had and now we have to see what kind of trades he will make with some of the surplus.

Jpup
12-27-2004, 03:50 PM
Now we shall see if Gullet is worth keeping around.

exactly.

MWM
12-27-2004, 03:52 PM
I don't think It's low expectations, but folks that are less sophisticated at identifying good ballplayers than you are.

I'm not that sophisticated. Look at his ERA. I don't that takes much sphistication.


I don't think the Reds are trying to dupe anyone, which I think is your implication, but are honestly trying to improve the team.

Dupe might not be the best term here. I think they're trying to improve the team. And I think the team is marginally better. I'll admit that. But I also know that you understand the principle of natural variation. They could have a little better team and still end up with the same number of wins and losses as last year. If you want to ensure a much better record, you better get a lot better than the moves that have been made. I think the FO is trying to do enough to convince people they're getting better. I don't think they're being dishonest. I just think they're really GOING FOR IT.


Your disagreement is with the choices they make--I think its unfair to question their motives as purposefully fooling unsophisticated fans.

What do you say to everyone in this thread who thinks people who aren't drooling over Eric Milton are jus malcontents who are never going to be happy. We've shown WHY we aren't thrilled with these moves, yet no one who is heaping the criticism on us has offered a single shred of evidence other than record,which everyone knows doesn't mean a whole lot in evaluating pithchers.

And again, I don't think the fans are unsophisticated. they're capable of looking a the guy's ERA, but for some reason they don't. I don't think that's a lack of sophistication. I'm not sure what it is.

Ohioballplayer
12-27-2004, 03:52 PM
how excited can we get over a pitcher who is 14-6, no complete games, gave up 43 homers, and had a 4.75 era??????????

RedsFan75
12-27-2004, 03:53 PM
Ran Miltions batting average on balls in play (BABIP) and compared him with a few others.
BABIP
Eric Miltion .257
Odalis Perez .251
Luke Hudson .237
Aaron Harang .305
Claussen .317
Acevedo .308
Hancock .259
Wilson .277

FWIW, I'll take .257 over .305, or .308

traderumor
12-27-2004, 03:53 PM
You love these little "holier-than-thou" comments, don't you? You haven't learned anything new about the game of baseball in years. Now THAT is sad.

MWM,

I would think you're hanging out around here should tell you that there are all different levels of fans. On a transaction, it becomes evident pretty quickly that there are some who do operate in the realm of "isn't he good? Good signing." Why talk down to someone like that?

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 03:53 PM
You love these little "holier-than-thou" comments, don't you? You haven't learned anything new about the game of baseball in years. Now THAT is sad.
Was that comment really needed?

Also, I don't see how anyone could look at Eric Milton, good numbers and bad, and say with a straight face that he's not an improvement over some of the pitchers we have ran out there the past couple years.

Reds1
12-27-2004, 03:53 PM
Eric Milton gave up 43 homers last year.

Forty-three.

Let that sink in a bit.

There's that positive thinking we all know and love ;)

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:54 PM
how excited can we get over a pitcher who is 14-6, no complete games, gave up 43 homers, and had a 4.75 era??????????

Jimmy Haynes and Jose Acevedo.

Did that help?

wheels
12-27-2004, 03:54 PM
I told you what stats I looked at, Some are good, some are bad. I still feel he is better than what we started out with, and I'll be the first to tell you that I'm not a big fan of Dan O', but I will never support a boycott, ever! It's just humorous to me that this board is so easily divided. I made the root for another team statement in jest. It's called a joke. Ever heard of one or a sense of humor for that matter? Come on wheels. I respect your opinion man, you are entitled to it. All I stated is that I just don't understand what would make some of you naysayers happy. And if what would make you happy is realistic at all.

Why can't you just say you're happy with it and leave it at that?

Why not just state your case, and if someone disagrees, it's okay. That's what we do here. We talk about baseball, and we're not all going to think alike. Why are you bothered at all if a few of us don't like the move?

You should be confident enough in your own opinion to not let it get under your skin.

I've been nothing but cordial towards you, and I really appreciate the heads up. In fact, I was one of the first people to step up for your credibility.

And now you feel the need to get personal with me.

I'm not going there, sorry.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 03:57 PM
From Rotoworld

"It's nice to see the Reds signing a big-name free agent. It's just too bad they picked one of the game's most overrated players to spend their money on. Milton's flyball tendencies won't play well in Great American. He does improve the team, but the Reds will regret this a year from now"

Ohioballplayer
12-27-2004, 03:58 PM
Flyer, that's still horrible no matter what you think, we could gave given Perez the same amount and gotten him

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 03:58 PM
Ran Miltions batting average on balls in play (BABIP) and compared him with a few others.
BABIP
Eric Miltion .257
Odalis Perez .251
Luke Hudson .237
Aaron Harang .305
Claussen .317
Acevedo .308
Hancock .259
Wilson .277

FWIW, I'll take .257 over .305, or .308

.257 isn't Milton's BABIP from 2004. Milton's BABIP was .271, which generally means that he's due for an increase in BABIP unless we assume that he's truly capable of keeping it down around the .275 mark. Of course, it's all immaterial if he allows the same number of bombs he did in 2004.

RedsFan75
12-27-2004, 04:00 PM
.257 isn't Milton's BABIP from 2004. Milton's BABIP was .271, which generally means that he's due for an increase in BABIP unless we assume that he's truly capable of keeping it down around the .275 mark. Of course, it's all immaterial if he allows the same number of bombs he did in 2004.

I got the stats from the Cube, if my calculation is wrong on his, don't trust any of the others either, because I used the same formula....

flyer85
12-27-2004, 04:00 PM
Flyer, that's still horrible no matter what you think, we could gave given Perez the same amount and gotten him

How much did we give him? I have not seen the numbers reported.

I would assume we could have gotten Perez for 3 years and $25M.

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:01 PM
MWM,

I would think you're hanging out around here should tell you that there are all different levels of fans. On a transaction, it becomes evident pretty quickly that there are some who do operate in the realm of "isn't he good? Good signing." Why talk down to someone like that?

Because I'm getting piled on pretty good here in this thread simply because I'm not thrilled about a pitcher with a career 4.76 ERA. And as far as the comments about the poster before, it goes much deeper than this thread. Why talk down? That particular person isn't capable of posting on this forum without talking down. I'm tired of getting talked down to by him, so I finally said something. People think the SABR guys are condescending, that guy's the most self-righteous person on this entire forum.

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 04:01 PM
Not sure how stating that I respect your opinion is getting personal with you. Didn't mean to take it there, if you thought that I apologize. You say "Why can't you just say you're happy with it and leave it at that?" well why doesn't it go the other way as well? You seem to be pretty caught up in it. How about we just agree to disagree on this signing and move on my friend. I didn't mean to stir any trouble. Hey we're all here for our love of the reds, that's one thing we can all agree on. Let's hope for the best and move forward Wheels. Deal? :gac:

Red Leader
12-27-2004, 04:01 PM
Also, I don't see how anyone could look at Eric Milton, good numbers and bad, and say with a straight face that he's not an improvement over some of the pitchers we have ran out there the past couple years.


I don't think ANYONE is debating that Eric Milton is not an upgrade to our rotation. I think what most people are saying, including myself, is that there were better options out there for the money they are spending. We've heard that the Reds made a run at Clement, obviously he didn't want to be here, same could be true of Odalis Perez, but if that's the case, put your money back in your pocket, there's plenty of places to spend it. You don't just go throwing money around at anything available. That's careless, and that will get you in trouble down the line. Milton is a good pitcher, in my opinion, but he's not worth anymore than 4.5-5.0M a year. I guarantee the Reds paid way more than that, and they shouldn't have. Because of that, they will regret this signing down the road at some point. Bank on it.

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 04:02 PM
I got the stats from the Cube, if my calculation is wrong on his, don't trust any of the others either, because I used the same formula....


http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/index.php?year=2004

Click on "Miscellaneous Pitching Stats"

It's as accurate as accurate gets.

Ohioballplayer
12-27-2004, 04:02 PM
I wold say the 21-23 million dollar range, even at 15 mill, it's a bad SIGN !! :thumbdown

Jpup
12-27-2004, 04:02 PM
From Rotoworld

"It's nice to see the Reds signing a big-name free agent. It's just too bad they picked one of the game's most overrated players to spend their money on. Milton's flyball tendencies won't play well in Great American. He does improve the team, but the Reds will regret this a year from now"

and then again, maybe they won't.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 04:03 PM
I'm not that sophisticated. Look at his ERA. I don't that takes much sphistication.



Dupe might not be the best term here. I think they're trying to improve the team. And I think the team is marginally better. I'll admit that. But I also know that you understand the principle of natural variation. They could have a little better team and still end up with the same number of wins and losses as last year. If you want to ensure a much better record, you better get a lot better than the moves that have been made. I think the FO is trying to do enough to convince people they're getting better. I don't think they're being dishonest. I just think they're really GOING FOR IT.



What do you say to everyone in this thread who thinks people who aren't drooling over Eric Milton are jus malcontents who are never going to be happy. We've shown WHY we aren't thrilled with these moves, yet no one who is heaping the criticism on us has offered a single shred of evidence other than record,which everyone knows doesn't mean a whole lot in evaluating pithchers.

And again, I don't think the fans are unsophisticated. they're capable of looking a the guy's ERA, but for some reason they don't. I don't think that's a lack of sophistication. I'm not sure what it is.
I disagree with your self-evaluation. You are a sophisticated fan, it is evident in your posts.

I hear what you're saying about marginal improvements may not help in the grand scheme of things, but the same principles could spell above average years because of changing teams.

Finally, as I follow the transaction evaluation, one thing that comes out is that the downside to a player is emphasized, while the possible positive attributes are totally discounted. There are some things to like about Eric Milton that could make him able to make a difference for the 2005 Reds, just like there is with Joe Randa. But what gets discussed? "Gave up 43 homers last year." "Did you look at his ERA?" I ask, what about his WHIP and K rates? Those are positive. Improvement in a problem area like giving up gopher balls coupled with consistency in the WHIP could lower that ERA to a level that helps the Reds win more ballgames this year.

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:04 PM
Also, I don't see how anyone could look at Eric Milton, good numbers and bad, and say with a straight face that he's not an improvement over some of the pitchers we have ran out there the past couple years.

No one said that. I thnk he IS an improvement. But the Reds had the worst non-Colorado pitching staff in the game last year. Moves like this still kepp them in thw botom 5 or 6. They might no be last, but they won't be much better.

RedlegJake
12-27-2004, 04:04 PM
Some don't like it. Some of us do.

Milton would have been my last choice of Lowe-Perez-Millwood-Milton but he is an upgrade, does have upside though with a long track record the Reds will probably get pretty much what he's averaged in the past. He eats innings, has a decent K rate, he's lefty - all three help the Reds. My biggest problem when people disagree on either side of the argument is there always seem to be snide references to how dumb, or how "holier than thou" the other person is simply because they don't agree. I think both sides make valid points - for the first time in a long time the Reds seem to be losening up a bit with the pursestrings, the club is improved - on the other hand, none of Milton, Randa, Ortiz, Weathers, Webber, Wilson resigning is a quantum leap. I still like it. My old man used to tell me, "even if its wrong - do something - that's better than paralysis"

I like the message implied in these moves. "We are going to try and improve - and NOT kill our future at the same time". Sitting in a car going around the same block again and again is boring - at least we're heading in a new direction now.

Reds1
12-27-2004, 04:04 PM
You people are freaking unbelievable. You ***** about every signing the Reds make. You ***** that they do nothing. You ***** that the offseason is a failure because they didn't upgrade the starting pitching. When they do upgrade the starting pitching with a nice, proven Major League pitcher what do you do? *****.

You guys could find something in the Bible and complain about it.

Unreal.

Amen. I've said this. I don't want to say everyone, but we have some guys that will complain about everything. How can you be upset about this signing. 4.76 in the AL isn't that bad. Remember you face a #9 hitter and not a pitcher. He's also a lefty. We needed this type of a signing bad and I'm fired up!

Ohioballplayer
12-27-2004, 04:05 PM
:dflynn:

boobhat
12-27-2004, 04:05 PM
the fact of this is that i think we were all excited about getting perez. however, signing milton is still awesome. gullet will make him a better pitcher and he improves our rotation considerably. one thing i wanted was a lefty to compete in the central and i got it. i am not the least bit disappointed about getting milton. everyone saw ryans post. he thought it would be millwood but perhaps the indians came in and overbid us. it happens.

1990WorldChamps
12-27-2004, 04:06 PM
From CBSsportsline, didn't see it posted:

His contract calls for a $4 million signing bonus, $4 million in 2005, $8.5 million in 2006 and $9 million in 2007, matching the total value of Matt Clement's deal with Boston.

http://www.cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8040665

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 04:07 PM
I guess the way I look at it, we (the general public) don't know what options are available, what offers we have made and were turned down or laughed at, I have to believe that this was the best available option given, cost and availability. That's just my opinion, and everyone here is entitled to theirs and I respect it. Just for giggles, it sounds like most wanted Odalis, could someone find and post OP's and EM's stats to compare. Just for fun, not that OP was available but just so we can compare.

RedsFan75
12-27-2004, 04:07 PM
http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/index.php?year=2004

Click on "Miscellaneous Pitching Stats"

It's as accurate as accurate gets.

Thanks, looks like I was off on all of them

Red Leader
12-27-2004, 04:07 PM
3 years / $25.5M

Just reported.

Free agent Eric Milton and Cincinnati agreed to a $25.5 million, three-year deal Monday as the Reds kept revamping their pitching staff.

Milton, 29, led Philadelphia in wins, starts and strikeouts last season, going 14-6 with a 4.75 ERA in 34 starts with 171 strikeouts.

His contract calls for a $4 million signing bonus, $4 million in 2005, $8.5 million in 2006 and $9 million in 2007, matching the total value of Matt Clement's deal with Boston.



The signing gives the Reds a proven left-hander in a rotation that desperately needed one.

Milton went 71-57 with a 4.76 ERA in 200 appearances with Minnesota and Philadelphia. He made the AL All-Star team in 2001, and went 1-0 with a 1.65 ERA with the Twins in the 2002 and 2003 playoffs.

Milton also pitched the fifth no-hitter in Twins' history on Sept. 11, 1999, striking out a career-high 13 Angels.

The Reds have spent the offseason overhauling their bullpen and rotation on a limited budget. They kept Paul Wilson, their top starter last season, by giving him a two-year deal, and acquired right-hander Ramon Ortiz from Anaheim.

Cincinnati has added David Weathers, Ben Weber and Kent Mercker to the bullpen.

Ohioballplayer
12-27-2004, 04:07 PM
:eek: :allovrjr:

westofyou
12-27-2004, 04:07 PM
Cocktail fact of the day.

For pitchers who have pitched at least 1000 innings Eric Milton has the 30th best K/9 rate for LH pitchers in the history of baseball, smack between Guidry and Tug McGraw.

Tell your boss, impress your friends.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 04:08 PM
From CBSsportsline, didn't see it posted:

His contract calls for a $4 million signing bonus, $4 million in 2005, $8.5 million in 2006 and $9 million in 2007, matching the total value of Matt Clement's deal with Boston.

If that's true I hope DanO used vaseline.

Redsfaithful
12-27-2004, 04:08 PM
From CBSsportsline, didn't see it posted:

His contract calls for a $4 million signing bonus, $4 million in 2005, $8.5 million in 2006 and $9 million in 2007, matching the total value of Matt Clement's deal with Boston.

Oh dear God.

MartyFan
12-27-2004, 04:08 PM
Well now that my celebrity status is gone, I'll disappear in to oblivion again. :mhcky21:

At least now you all know I wasn't pulling your leg. lol Hope it was fun for all of you to track, and hopefully I'll have more juicy news in the future for you all.


Okay, Ryan, keep em coming...this is addictive...haven't seen a winter like this since Bowden went to California to come back with Junior...I loved his line on that.

As for the signing, I am in the camp that says it is a step in the right direction and I am confident on a signing like this the staff feels they can help Milton keep the ball in the park better than he did in Philly.

I like the signings the DanO has done and look forward to what other moves he may have up his sleeve.

Matt700wlw
12-27-2004, 04:08 PM
Let's see...people gripe because the Reds don't do anything

I see people gripe when the Reds actually do things and make moves to make improvements to a beleagured ballclub -- reminds me of Bengals fans...

I will take a 29 year old, 14 game winning LEFTIE in the rotation any day of the week

KronoRed
12-27-2004, 04:08 PM
3 years is not a horrible idea, better then 5..but if we paid more then 5 mill a year this is a bad deal, he's not that good, better then the junk we had but not great.

Ohioballplayer
12-27-2004, 04:09 PM
HOW:dflynn: DUMB :dflynn: CAN :dflynn:THEY :dflynn:BE :dflynn:PEOPLE :dflynn:

Red Leader
12-27-2004, 04:09 PM
Still haven't heard what Milton's out clause for 2007 is...anyone know?

Benihana
12-27-2004, 04:09 PM
3 yrs 25.5 mil per espn.com

while excited, i would agree w most that is quite high. While I would've rather had Perez for those numbers, I'm going to enjoy the half-full glass and celebrate

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:10 PM
Finally, as I follow the transaction evaluation, one thing that comes out is that the downside to a player is emphasized, while the possible positive attributes are totally discounted. There are some things to like about Eric Milton that could make him able to make a difference for the 2005 Reds, just like there is with Joe Randa. But what gets discussed? "Gave up 43 homers last year." "Did you look at his ERA?" I ask, what about his WHIP and K rates? Those are positive. Improvement in a problem area like giving up gopher balls coupled with consistency in the WHIP could lower that ERA to a level that helps the Reds win more ballgames this year.

That's just it, I don't disagree with this. All I said was that I wasn't thrilled with this signing and I questioned whether people who are ga-ga over this move actually bothered to look up his performance. This thread is an example where people who didn't like the move were absolutely lambasted right from the beginning. So maybe I got a little defensive. I'm just a little tired of feeling like I have to like moves made by this FO and if I don't then that means I'll never be satisfied or I'm some kind of malcontent who gets off by disliking the Reds FO.

wheels
12-27-2004, 04:10 PM
I hope you're right Traderumor, I just think alot of the discontent associated with the signing has more to do with who they DIDN'T get, and for how much he may be signed for.

He tends to get abosulutely torched on a regular basis, but at the same time doesn't walk a ton of batters, and he can strike a few of them out.

It's just who they could have gotten that sticks in my craw. What could have been?

I think Redleader said it best...SOmething to the effect of "Put the money back in the wallet."

They could have saved it for a deadline deal if one presented itself.

johngalt
12-27-2004, 04:10 PM
Clement:

BABIP - .284
BAA - .229
OBP - .315
SLG - .375
K/9 - 9.5
BB/9 - 3.8

Perez:

BABIP - .272
BAA - .250
OBP - .288
SLG - .420
K/9 - 5.9
BB/9 - 2.0

Millwood:

BABIP - .337
BAA - .278
OBP - .339
SLG - .434
K/9 - 8.0
BB/9 - 3.3

Milton:

BABIP - .271
BAA - .255
OBP - .316
SLG - .493
K/9 - 7.2
BB/9 - 3.4

That .493 slugging against is a little scary. I still really like the signing though, especially since they made runs at Pavano and Clement but were turned down.

RedTeamGo!
12-27-2004, 04:11 PM
I like it. his K/BB ratio is damned good and he consistently stays at an ERA around the mid-4's instead of having an ERA of 7 like claussen could have had.

baby steps.

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:11 PM
[SIZE=7]His contract calls for a $4 million signing bonus, $4 million in 2005, $8.5 million in 2006 and $9 million in 2007, matching the total value of Matt Clement's deal with Boston.

WOW! Am I still supposed to be happy about this?

RedlegJake
12-27-2004, 04:12 PM
The bright side of that contract? Milton could pitch so well in '05 & '06 that he exercises his opt out for '07. Or would that be a bad thing since he would need to pitch extremely well to want to do that?

Redsfaithful
12-27-2004, 04:12 PM
The Reds have now already spent the money they'll be saving when Danny Graves comes off the books.

Unless the payroll jumps to the point where 8 - 9 million dollars doesn't cripple the Reds, then the franchise just got hosed for the next three years.

I feel bad now for defending the moves made to date.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 04:12 PM
It looks like the Reds have entered the "Bengal Zone". Quality free agents don't want to play here and the ones that are willing have to be overpaid.

RedsFan75
12-27-2004, 04:12 PM
I guess the way I look at it, we (the general public) don't know what options are available, what offers we have made and were turned down or laughed at, I have to believe that this was the best available option given, cost and availability. That's just my opinion, and everyone here is entitled to theirs and I respect it. Just for giggles, it sounds like most wanted Odalis, could someone find and post OP's and EM's stats to compare. Just for fun, not that OP was available but just so we can compare.



NAME TEAM G GS IP BFP H 1B 2B 3B HR BB SO HBP SF SH R ER AVG OBP SLG ISO WHIP BABIP G/F
Eric Milton PHI 34 34 201 862 196 103 46 4 43 75 161 1 6 11 110 106 0.255 0.316 0.493 0.238 1.348 0.271 0.96
Odalis Perez LAN 31 31 196.3 787 180 114 35 5 26 44 128 3 3 16 76 71 0.25 0.288 0.42 0.171 1.141 0.272 2.387

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 04:12 PM
I'm with you all that this is a huge contract, seems a bit high for me, but it's not my money, and as long as it doesn't inhibit us from doing other things, I'll deal with a new vet leftie in our rotation.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 04:13 PM
Maybe they are planning to send Jr to "sleep with the fishes."

Jpup
12-27-2004, 04:14 PM
why would you complain that the Reds are finally spending some of their money? Maybe they are finally increasing the payroll to what it should be? You know, 29 year-old major league left handers that can pitch aren't easy to come by.

wheels
12-27-2004, 04:14 PM
Let's see...people gripe because the Reds don't do anything

I see people gripe when the Reds actually do things and make moves to make improvements to a beleagured ballclub -- reminds me of Bengals fans...

I will take a 29 year old, 14 game winning LEFTIE in the rotation any day of the week

Pot...Meet Kettle.

Stewie
12-27-2004, 04:14 PM
You've had the opportunity to watch the guy for a full season, Stewie.

What's your take?


Depending on the amount of money that he is getting, Milton could be a good signing for the Reds. He definitely wasn't worth the $9 million he raked in last year, and anything more than $5 million a year I think would be a little too much. He is a proven lefty and would be decent in the middle or end of the rotation, but as has been said before, he isn't a "#1 pitcher." His record last year was nice, but he was able to get some wins out of some clunker performances. 3 of his wins came in games where he allowed at least a run per inning, another one came when he allowed just under a run per inning (6 ER in 6 2/3 inning against Atlanta).

But still, he should be a solid addition, and an upgrade over last year, but he won't lead them to the playoffs.


EDIT: actually, I just saw what the money was -- Too much.

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 04:15 PM
25.5 Million Dollars to a below average pitcher. Only four Starting Pitchers put up higher OPS Against numbers while pitching 200 Innings in 2004. Three of those four played in either Colorado (Jennings, Estes) or Texas (Rogers).

Chew on that for a while and hopefully we can understand why it's so difficult to swallow.

SYCMiniBus
12-27-2004, 04:15 PM
Keep in mind over his career Milton has pitched in 2 launching pads (Philly and Minnesota) so a strait comparison between him and Odalis Perez is definitly not fair. Heck last year the new Phillies park was basically Coors field the ball just flew out of that stadium. Is it a little high on contract numbers, ofcourse, but it is definitly a quality effort to improve the team.

Aronchis
12-27-2004, 04:15 PM
So the contract is 8 mill this year(signing bonus included), 8.5 nextyear and 9 mill the year after.

From my point of view, that is to much. 3 years 6 million would have been about right, but in this overinflated market, that is what you get. So the Reds will have a 60 million dollar payroll. But if they don't compete this year and the fans get grumpy again, down the shoot the payroll will go again. So the Reds were really trying to get Clement, but he stiffed them so they take the Lefty and overpay him. Good job Jim Bowden. :allovrjr:

Be carefull what you wish for...................

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:17 PM
Replacing one albatross (Graves) with another. Now next offseason people won't be able to blame DanO's lack of ability to sign anyone on Jimbo''s contracts.

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 04:17 PM
We have no reason to believe that this moves prohibits us from doing other things. They have done nothing but add payroll this winter.

Jpup
12-27-2004, 04:17 PM
So the contract is 8 mill this year(signing bonus included), 8.5 nextyear and 9 mill the year after.

From my point of view, that is to much. 3 years 6 million would have been about right, but in this overinflated market, that is what you get. So the Reds will have a 60 million dollar payroll. But if they don't compete this year and the fans get grumpy again, down the shoot the payroll will go again. So the Reds were really trying to get Clement, but he stiffed them so they take the Lefty and overpay him. Good job Jim Bowden. :allovrjr:

Be carefull what you wish for...................

Thank the Mets for the dollars.

Reds1
12-27-2004, 04:18 PM
I'm with you all that this is a huge contract, seems a bit high for me, but it's not my money, and as long as it doesn't inhibit us from doing other things, I'll deal with a new vet leftie in our rotation.

The cool thing about this statement is even with this signing we have signed another starter, 3 decent relievers, and a good 3B. I have to say I'm as surprised with this signing. As I saw above I'll take a 29 year old, 14 game winning LEFTIE in the rotation any day of the week. Especially a guy who throws strikes and lots of innings. How can we complain. Now if this was the only signing then maybe yet for spending the money, but being we spent this money after already getting the other 5 players this is just awesome that the FO is stepping up to the plate.

Bill
12-27-2004, 04:18 PM
Ryan, can you answer this? Was this recent push by the REds a reaction to the negative press this off-season and if so, did the late decision to act leave Obrien trying to acquire the leftovers or was he actually negotiating with this money earlier when Clement and all were available.

In any event, it is great to see them spend money, but still with relatively small payroll, they need to spend wisely. 25 mill for Milton is not.

Ryan the Reds Fan
12-27-2004, 04:18 PM
I hope you're right Traderumor, I just think alot of the discontent associated with the signing has more to do with who they DIDN'T get, and for how much he may be signed for.

He tends to get abosulutely torched on a regular basis, but at the same time doesn't walk a ton of batters, and he can strike a few of them out.

It's just who they could have gotten that sticks in my craw. What could have been?

I think Redleader said it best...SOmething to the effect of "Put the money back in the wallet."

They could have saved it for a deadline deal if one presented itself.

And that's my point, how do we know they could have gotten anyone else, and who's to say they still won't make that same deadline deal? Keep an open mind. Maybe we talked to Perez and he wouldn't sign with us, so we moved on. Just let's all try and keep an open mind here. I know in the past, the Front Office hasn't given us much hope or reason to believe, but I think we have seen some activities that are different from the past recently, so let's hope as reds fans for the best.

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:19 PM
Man, I think we are nearing the necessity for a separate forum for folks who qualify for this title. My credentials will probably not get me in. ;) :MandJ:

No need to start a new one. I really think you'd enjoy this one.

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/listsf.asp?webtag=ml-reds&gfc=1&sts=12%2F27%2F2004+3%3A18%3A46+PM

redsfan30
12-27-2004, 04:19 PM
Matt....do you know if the conference is going to be carried on WLW or HOMER?

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:20 PM
We have no reason to believe that this moves prohibits us from doing other things.

That statement rests on the assumption that the Reds have endless payroll. If they are on a limmited budget, no matter that budget might be, any signing of significant money prohibits other moves from being made.

Matt700wlw
12-27-2004, 04:21 PM
Now we shall see if Gullet is worth keeping around.


People have said he's struggled due to lack of talent.....WE SHALL SEE

flyer85
12-27-2004, 04:21 PM
What the hell ... it's Christmas.

At least someone was in the gift giving mood.

red-in-la
12-27-2004, 04:21 PM
Well, all you guys gushing over Perez might want to know the opinion of a Dodger fan. One very serious Dodger fan I know has little respect for Perez because he supposedly had NO HEART. I have no idea oif the numbers bear this out, but he supposedly crumbled in big games (pitched very poorly).

Which I hear is one reason the Dodgers did not mortage the stadium to try to keep him.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 04:22 PM
It looks like the Reds have entered the "Bengal Zone". Quality free agents don't want to play here and the ones that are willing have to be overpaid.
I think you're right. For that money, I say Perez and Clement gave them a polite "no." Fair enough. I would probably fall in the camp that says "go another direction" with the money given to Milton. Hopefully he will be the late developing lefty. We got that going for us ;)

From the pundit seat, though, I don't like the contract, but then I am not going to totally write it off to foolish spending of money. Like the Bengals, they got themselves in a hole that makes them unattractive to top notch people with choices, so you overpay the next rung down to get back up to speed. Pay me now or pay me later.

RedsFan75
12-27-2004, 04:22 PM
Steel, those BP stats are park adjusted aren't they?

IF that's the case the comparison between OP and EM are pretty close. BABIP .271 vs. .272 Slugging is the killer.... .493 to .420

Matt700wlw
12-27-2004, 04:23 PM
Matt....do you know if the conference is going to be carried on WLW or HOMER?

No it won't....don't have enough staff with the holidays :)

Falls City Beer
12-27-2004, 04:25 PM
I'll give Milton a little slack--I'd rather be dead than have to work under Larry Bowa for 162 games.

All anyone can do at this point is hope that Milton can recapture 2001-2002 form. It's possible, but probably unlikely.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 04:25 PM
Puts the Paul Wilson signing in a different light.

writerdan33
12-27-2004, 04:26 PM
With all the grumbling and sniping going back and forth, I suppose now would be the wrong time to ask everyone to join hands for a chorus of "We Are The World?"

:allovrjr:

BRM
12-27-2004, 04:26 PM
Rotoworld update on the contract:


$8.5 million per season for a pitcher with a career ERA of 4.76. This just might be the worst deal of the offseason, which is really saying something. Milton receives a $4 million signing bonus, $4 million in 2005, $8.5 million in 2006 and $9 million in 2007. He can opt out of the final year of the deal just in case he actually exceeds expectations. We put the chances of that happening at 1.9 percent.

Matt700wlw
12-27-2004, 04:26 PM
I honestly didn't even know Eric Milton was available! I'm all for this signing....and this is from one of the biggest Dan O'Brien/Reds Front office bashers on this board

I think this franchise is finally back on the right track

traderumor
12-27-2004, 04:28 PM
People have said he's struggled due to lack of talent.....WE SHALL SEEGood thought here, both Ortiz and Milton have been tagged as "high talent, low performers" so these two could be good tests for that theory.

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:29 PM
I will say his, Milton does has upside. I wouldn't be all tha surprised to see him have a decent year and improve on the past season. But I'm still not jumping for joy over this signing and no way is he worth what they're paying him.

I also agree that this will be a good test for Gullet. If he can't get anything better out of Milton, than he deserves some of the criticism he's received.

Falls City Beer
12-27-2004, 04:29 PM
Okay, I revise my opinion: this was a bad signing, particularly for the money involved. I was really thinking they would be able to get him cheap after last season (in which case, I'd be okay with the signing)--but those dollars are ridiculous.

Aronchis
12-27-2004, 04:29 PM
I think the Reds hope the prospect "big" 5: EE,Bergolla,Pauly,Gardner and Votto fill in holes left by players such as Casey,Jimenez,Wilson,Ortiz and Ronda over the next 1-2 years. That way, the cheap talent will allow the Reds to keep Dunn,Kearns and Pena for a longer period than expected. Though blockbusters may change that, but the Reds won't make many if any.

The Reds rotation is like stopgap city. Only Claussen and Milton(both lefties, which the Reds are in short supply of in the minors) could be solutions for the next 3 years. But what they hope is, the Vets help the Reds compete this year, if not making the playoffs all together. Even if the Reds go 90-72 miss the playoffs by 3 games, the lay fan will be enthused like after 99 which brought in Griff.

MartyFan
12-27-2004, 04:30 PM
I honestly didn't even know Eric Milton was available! I'm all for this signing....and this is from one of the biggest Dan O'Brien/Reds Front office bashers on this board

I think this franchise is finally back on the right track


Matt, I agree with you...I am bummed that 700 won't be acrrying the press conference...but I'll try to get my fix on the Reds site.

Reds4Life
12-27-2004, 04:31 PM
You've got to be kidding me, $8.5 million per for Milton?


UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. :dflynn:

Cedric
12-27-2004, 04:32 PM
Money wise this is a bad trade. But I think everyone is excited that the front office was willing to spend the cash. Very suprising to me.

Ravenlord
12-27-2004, 04:33 PM
i'm not sure how i feel about him. he has decent H/9 numbers, fairly good K/9 numbers. good K/BB, decent WHIP...the only problem is that horrific, ungodly, unholy, badong, horrid SLG against....fueled by what has to be one of the worst HR/9 rates around.

his secondary numbers all look good (aside from SLG), so it's surprising that his ERA is so high. however, when you take into account that nasty SLG against, it suddenly makes sense why his ERA is on the wrong side of Leage Average.

DunnersGrl44
12-27-2004, 04:33 PM
I don't know about the deal. I don't know enough about Milton, BUT, i do like the fact that DanO made a move, and got us a 1 starter. Hopefully, everything works out and we get 3 good years out of him!

traderumor
12-27-2004, 04:33 PM
With the $, I would lay a sawbuck down that Perez and Clement rebuffed our advances. We overpaid, still not sure I'd go as far as RotoWorld considering the Benson contract. It's at least a tie.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 04:34 PM
Milton must feel like he won the lottery. :help:

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:34 PM
There's a difference between liking the guy as a pitcher and liking a signing. Before we knew the dollars, I wasn't thrilled about Milton as a pitcher, period. If the dollars would have been $3MM or less, I would actually thought it a good signing even though I didn't care for his pitching performance. But once the dollars got to over $5MM/year, it became a bad signing.

traderumor
12-27-2004, 04:35 PM
i'm not sure how i feel about him. he has decent H/9 numbers, fairly good K/9 numbers. good K/BB, decent WHIP...the only problem is that horrific, ungodly, unholy, badong, horrid SLG against....fueled by what has to be one of the worst HR/9 rates around.Same here, RL. He isn't easy to dismiss, and it makes you think if he found the holy grail of keeping the ball in the park, he could make himself worth the cash.

Matt700wlw
12-27-2004, 04:36 PM
Matt, I agree with you...I am bummed that 700 won't be acrrying the press conference...but I'll try to get my fix on the Reds site.

We will have audio later, hopefully it's in time to air some of it on 1360 homer before Bengals Line starts at 6:00

BRM
12-27-2004, 04:36 PM
I don't know about the deal. I don't know enough about Milton, BUT, i do like the fact that DanO made a move, and got us a 1 starter. Hopefully, everything works out and we get 3 good years out of him!

I like the fact that DanO is making moves as well, but I don't think he got us a #1 starter with Milton. He may be a #1 for the Reds but not for the rest of the league.

Aronchis
12-27-2004, 04:36 PM
Remember, Perez is a TYPE A FA. Meaning we lose our second round pick. I bet that is the reason he was passed over. DanO made it VERY clear he won't sign FA's if he loses draft picks, ANY draft picks. Milton doesn't cost us anything.

missionhockey21
12-27-2004, 04:36 PM
I will say his, Milton does has upside. I wouldn't be all tha surprised to see him have a decent year and improve on the past season. But I'm still not jumping for joy over this signing and no way is he worth what they're paying him.

I also agree that this will be a good test for Gullet. If he can't get anything better out of Milton, than he deserves some of the criticism he's received.
I agree 100%. This guy is getting big time overpaid, but he's always had the stuff. With a change of scenery and some help from Gullet to work on lowering that gopherball total, he could be an impact for us. Then again, if he gets hammered, the Reds screwed themselves over with cash for quite some time. It would be a damn shame if this impacts Dunn being signed LTC in the future (we all know if the Reds lose, payroll will be slashed and this is a contract that will hurt if he pitches badly and makes it so no one wants to take on the contract.)

Ravenlord
12-27-2004, 04:36 PM
monies come out. :censored: Matt Clement is cheaper........:censored: the Reds FO.

flyer85
12-27-2004, 04:37 PM
MWM,

Maybe your avatar is a picture of our GM without the mask.

FlyingPig
12-27-2004, 04:37 PM
Someone might have mentioned this somewhere on this thread if he did, but wasn't Milton the guy who threw the no-hitter for the Twins a few years back?

Reds4Life
12-27-2004, 04:38 PM
Milton doesn't cost us anything.

Just $8.5 million a year with a career ERA pusing 5. :barf:

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:38 PM
In the years 2000-2002 when Milton had those winning seasons (41 total wins), his Neutral Wins totaled 33. FYI.

top6
12-27-2004, 04:39 PM
when I think that this signing might one day prevent us from locking up Dunn long term, i get sick to my stomach.

Boss-Hog
12-27-2004, 04:39 PM
This thread is so funny...

From the thread: "Sounds like we have some inside info (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30652)":


Eric Milton= :confused:

Milton surely would be too expensive and he really doesn't impress me that much. Here's to hoping it's Perez or Millwood.
The bad thing about Eric Milton, aside from the ERA, he gives up the long ball at an alarming rate. And if you put him in Great American Ball Park in the middle of July when a pop fly winds up in the upper deck, you are asking for trouble. With a career ERA of 4.76, that tells me that he must have some of the best run support out there. Now granted, he would get that here in Cincinnati, but what happens if we start getting hurt again and start running minor leaguers out there again? Then we struggle to score three runs a game and that ERA of almost five doesn't hold up anymore and he loses games.

If it were up to me, I would stay clear of Eric Milton.I don't even know what to say, given his comments in this thread where he's going gaga over another terrible signing by the Reds. The discrepency between his comments pretty much speaks volumes about his credibility and the fact that he will blindly support any move the Reds' front office makes, even if it completely contradicts something he said just a couple of days earlier. My predicition is that this contract will cripple the Reds in future years and then we'll hear the "We have no money" mantra again.

Boss

Walkerforpres
12-27-2004, 04:40 PM
good lord. Milton is a decent pitcher, but.....come on. 25 million dollars? That's more than the *Yankees* were willing to pay him.

It's amazing how we can all be so excited that the Reds are putting a possible contender on the field in '05, and at the same time so pissed that such terrible money management is going on.

With the $4 mil that Milton gets, the $2.15 that Randa gets, the 1+ mil that Weathers/Mercker got each, and the $750K that Weber got, that's around 9 million in added payroll for this year.
Does a Griffey trade follow? A Casey trade? Because I simply don't believe that Lindner and Co. are actually going to consistently raise payroll for the Reds to compete.

wheels
12-27-2004, 04:40 PM
Thank you very much Boss.

MWM
12-27-2004, 04:41 PM
MWM,

Maybe your avatar is a picture of our GM without the mask.

Could be. He did go to Yankee fantasy camp once. :RedinDC:

SteelSD
12-27-2004, 04:41 PM
Steel, those BP stats are park adjusted aren't they?

IF that's the case the comparison between OP and EM are pretty close. BABIP .271 vs. .272 Slugging is the killer.... .493 to .420

Depends on what stats you're looking at RF75.

And yes. That Slugging % Against is a killer. .493 is a nightmare number.

But keep in mind that pitchers aren't generally able to control their BABIP numbers. They tend to average closer to .300 from year to year.

I have found a bit of suggestive evidence that LHP may (I repeat- MAY) be more likely to produce lower BABIP numbers than RHP, but I wouldn't hang my hat on it at this point. Fact is that Milton's FAR more likely to weaken in the BABIP area in 2005 than he is to remain constant with 2004 (or improve on it).

That's one of the reasons for my disgust. The Reds just paid nearly 9M per season for a pitcher who actually got Hit "lucky" last year AND who gives up an alarming number of longballs. Because he's such a consistent extreme Fly Ball pitcher, even a decent decrease in his HR allowed rate is, most probably, going to be mostly annulled by a likely increase in his BABIP rate.

I posted this before, but I'll post it here again:

Since 2001, Eric Milton is the only MLB pitcher to give up 50 Doubles in a season who's also given up 40 HR in a season. It's the way he pitches. Not good.

Matt700wlw
12-27-2004, 04:42 PM
With the $4 mil that Milton gets, the $2.15 that Randa gets, the 1+ mil that Weathers/Mercker got each, and the $750K that Weber got, that's around 9 million in added payroll for this year.
Does a Griffey trade follow? A Casey trade? Because I simply don't believe that Lindner and Co. are actually going to consistently raise payroll for the Reds to compete.

It looks to me that they are -- somebody must have stole Carl's checkbook and is playing a mean trick on him

Ravenlord
12-27-2004, 04:43 PM
Eric Milton costs more than Matt Clement. who'd a thunk it.

Phhhl
12-27-2004, 04:43 PM
I do agree that the money is outrageous. O'Brien is kind of putting his head on the chopping block if all these moves backfire. I will give him credit for having the courage of his convictions, though that is what they also said about General Custer. But, there is no doubt that this is a better club that closed out the 2004 season, imho. Signifigantly better.

Aronchis
12-27-2004, 04:43 PM
when I think that this signing might one day prevent us from locking up Dunn long term, i get sick to my stomach.

If the Reds want to lock up Adam Dunn, they can. Maybe they don't want to, but if they build around the prospect Big 5, they may just lock him up. Losing Jimenez,Graves,Casey,Ronda,Wilson and Ortiz's contracts over the next 1-2 will free up alot of money. How about Griff after he calls it quits due to his hammy?

Milton may be a bad signing, I don't like the money either, but he won't stop the Reds from signing, Dunn or even Kearns/Pena to long term deals.

Coopdaddy67
12-27-2004, 04:43 PM
Im not too happy about the 25 mil either, but if he comes in and pitches effectively, we'll all be happy.

Hey, at least the front office is spending some cash...

:confused: