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View Full Version : Politics... Not Allowed Here Anymore?



RedFanAlways1966
01-18-2005, 01:25 PM
Just curious. We seem to have a trigger-happy thread closer around here.

Politics (and religion) are flashpoints. I think most know that. And they have their ups-and-downs as far as discussing goes.

Just make it simple... no politics allowed. Add it to rule #5. Might as well. That is what happens anyhow. We will only discuss movies, TV and people who do dumb things (non political of course). Should make us all lovable and keep us busy discussing important world topics when we are not in the mood to talk REDS baseball.

I see DunnHater getting run through the ringer (justifiably so IMO) on the other side but it just keeps on going-and-going-and-going. Most of his threads are far more political in nature (on this board) than most on non-baseball. But there seems to be an inconsistency.

Feel free to lock this if it is too political.

zombie-a-go-go
01-18-2005, 01:31 PM
Just make it simple... no politics allowed. Add it to rule #5.

Hmm... good idea.


Feel free to lock this if it is too political.

Don't worry, I will. :thumbup:

Chip R
01-18-2005, 01:39 PM
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves..." - William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar Act I Scene II

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 01:40 PM
Hmm... good idea.

Is that the official ruling then? No more political discussion?

Red Leader
01-18-2005, 01:40 PM
Is that the official ruling then? No more political discussion?

We can have hope, can't we?

jmcclain19
01-18-2005, 01:41 PM
the problem is that the political threads turn well beyond civil discourse.

Once I see a certain few names in those type of threads, I stay away, because the end is near

zombie-a-go-go
01-18-2005, 01:41 PM
Is that the official ruling then? No more political discussion?

No, not an official ruling.

Yet. :mhcky21:

jmcclain19
01-18-2005, 01:42 PM
Is that the official ruling then? No more political discussion?

I really hope not. The immature actions of a few shouldn't dominate the actions of many.

savafan
01-18-2005, 01:42 PM
All persons who want to discuss politics will have to subscribe and discuss them on the Hall of Fame forum from now on.


No...not an official statement, just an idea.

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 01:43 PM
We can have hope, can't we?

This is what I don't get. Why read the threads if they bother you RL?

And if you're not reading them then how do they bother you?

pedro
01-18-2005, 01:52 PM
I would just like it if people didn't have something relevant to add to the discussion that they didn't post in that thread. That means unrelated rants about anyone on right or left and other posts purely intended to derail discussion such as dismissive emoticons. I know we don't all agree but getting access to opposing viewpoints is what democracy is all about. We should take advantage of the opportunity, not dismiss things out of hand just b/c they may be contrary to our current beliefs.

Danny Serafini
01-18-2005, 01:53 PM
I'd be thrilled if the political threads got the boot. All they do is build up animosity. There's occasionally a nugget of interest, but for the most part it's just a bunch of name-calling by people on both sides. It's not like anything productive comes from those threads, there's no kind of enlightenment. It's just two sides dug deeply into their own trenches lobbing grenades at each other.

Red Leader
01-18-2005, 01:54 PM
This is what I don't get. Why read the threads if they bother you RL?

And if you're not reading them then how do they bother you?

First, I don't read the threads so they don't bother "me".

They just bother me because all anyone does is fight back in forth in them, and then people get banned, etc, which makes for long days for the moderators, people coming back before their ban is up under other user names, and trolling, which then does effect me in other threads. So while it doesn't directly effect me to some point, I think this place would be a lot better off if they didn't exist.

I agree with what you said, though. It would be a lot better if people could act civil in those threads and things could be debated intelligently, but I've seen about 25 political threads in a row closed because things couldn't be discussed intelligently. That's enough for me to believe that things won't change dramatically in the future to make those threads worthwhile.

Best case, they should be put in their own forum as a perk for subscribers (like the Hall of Fame)

savafan
01-18-2005, 01:54 PM
I agree Pedro. I, for one, have had my opinion or belief on something swayed by discussions here on this message board in the past.

zombie-a-go-go
01-18-2005, 01:59 PM
Hmm. I don't know? How could the animosity of certain posters on either side of the political divide possible bother someone who doesn't read those threads?

Maybe it's when a thread about the worst natural disaster that will occur in any of our lifetimes takes less than a few HOURS to degenerate into lefties and righties insulting each other. If any thread should have stayed free of Bush-bashing/Dem-bashing it should have been one relating to the news of the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. But no. Some people had to go in there and act like petulant little pissant babies and make those deaths about their politics.

Or maybe it's when posters hang up their keyboards for good and leave the site because they can't stand being insulted anymore. And I'm talking about more than RBA here.

Hell, perhaps he's bothered by the fact that he can't make a comment in half the damn threads on this board anymore because he knows he'll get bashed, mercilessly, should he dare to open his mouth.

Those sound like good reasons to you?

The fragmenting of a community. That one suit you?

Or how about the Mods who get buried under an avalanche of PMs from posters in those 'political' threads complaining about someone else is insulting them? And then getting insulted by other people when they take action to rectify the initial problem?

Who cares if they're hurting someone else's feelings? Respect for your fellow man? Common decency? These things go right out the window after a political thread is on this board for more than ten minutes.

Does that get you? No? Of course not.

Then how about this: This is a baseball website.

And maybe the people who moderate this place are getting sick and tired of your crap.

Chip R
01-18-2005, 02:01 PM
I agree with what you said, though. It would be a lot better if people could act civil in those threads and things could be debated intelligently, but I've seen about 25 political threads in a row closed because things couldn't be discussed intelligently. That's enough for me to believe that things won't change dramatically in the future to make those threads worthwhile.

Best case, they should be put in their own forum as a perk for subscribers (like the Hall of Fame)It would be and there have been calls for this many, many, many times on here. And it works for about a week or so but then it's back to the old mudslinging again.

I don't see how putting them in the HOF forum would solve the problem or be a perk. You pay for the "privlidge" of ripping each other? :confused:

savafan
01-18-2005, 02:04 PM
I don't see how putting them in the HOF forum would solve the problem or be a perk. You pay for the "privlidge" of ripping each other? :confused:

Some people buy Jerry Springer on pay per view. It's not that far fetched.

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 02:05 PM
Then how about this: This is a baseball website.

Then make it a baseball website. Close this side of the board.

But I think it's stupid to single out one type of thread and think that banning all political threads is going to solve anything.

I'm going to catch a lot of heat for this, but whatever. If the mods would actually do some moderating on this side of the board, and not just close threads then things might improve.

Or you can just ban political threads.

Either way I think I'm just going to stick to the baseball side of things, with the fascinating debates of SABR vs. traditional being played out over and over and over and over.

But anyway since I think I probably post 75 percent of the political threads on this side of the board I imagine my stopping will fix a lot of the problem. Hope that helps.

Red Leader
01-18-2005, 02:08 PM
It would be and there have been calls for this many, many, many times on here. And it works for about a week or so but then it's back to the old mudslinging again.

I don't see how putting them in the HOF forum would solve the problem or be a perk. You pay for the "privlidge" of ripping each other? :confused:

I was thinking more along the lines of a "subscription + package". Subscription costs you $XX/month, quarter, year and you get access to all redszone + HOF forum. Subscription + costs you subscription + another fee and you get all of redszone + HOF forum + political forum.

That way people are paying extra for the political forum. If they enter that forum, they do so willingly and know what they are getting into.

Regular subscribers don't have access to the Political forum. That way those that pay money as subscribers aren't bothered by the Political forum unless they choose to upgrade and specifically request the "perk" of politics.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 02:08 PM
But anyway since I think I probably post 75 percent of the political threads on this side of the board I imagine my stopping will fix a lot of the problem. Hope that helps.


Agreed :thumbup:

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 02:09 PM
Agreed :thumbup:

Dealing with him would have fixed the majority of the problems we've seen lately.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 02:09 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of a "subscription + package". Subscription costs you $XX/month, quarter, year and you get access to all redszone + HOF forum. Subscription + costs you subscription + another fee and you get all of redszone + HOF forum + political forum.

That way people are paying extra for the political forum. If they enter that forum, they do so willingly and know what they are getting into.

Regular subscribers don't have access to the Political forum. That way those that pay money as subscribers aren't bothered by the Political forum unless they choose to upgrade and specifically request the "perk" of politics.


That makes sense, but it just seems like it would be turning us more and more away from being a baseball forum.

WebScorpion
01-18-2005, 02:10 PM
Come oooonnn SPRING TRAINING!!! :D

Red Leader
01-18-2005, 02:11 PM
Come oooonnn SPRING TRAINING!!! :D


:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

No kidding.

Rojo
01-18-2005, 02:12 PM
I vote we kill the "song/movie retains the name" threads.

Or replace it with a grass-growing webcam.

zombie-a-go-go
01-18-2005, 02:13 PM
You know, my daughter had been begging for a watercolor set for weeks because she wanted to paint with me. She's just a little thing, no taller than my knee, and I knew she'd tear up the apartment with them. I knew it. But I bought them for her anyway, thinking "well, maybe she's old enough to have a paint set. Don't assume that she's not old enough to handle them - give her the benefit of the doubt."

So I bought her the paints, sat down and did some painting yesterday, and soon enough she was laughing as she started tossing paint around the room.

So I took the paints away from her, She was upset, of course, and I had to explain to her that she just wasn't old enough for them yet. Daddy wasn't being mean. She's the one who got the paints taken away from her.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 02:14 PM
Wow, I simply agree with someone, and that person comes out and bashes me right after it!


I think im gonna go slit my wrists now! :MandJ:

savafan
01-18-2005, 02:16 PM
I vote we kill the "song/movie retains the name" threads.

Or replace it with a grass-growing webcam.

Those threads lost their appeal to me when the same movies/songs were being repeated five or six times.

RedFanAlways1966
01-18-2005, 02:18 PM
Or maybe it's when posters hang up their keyboards for good and leave the site because they can't stand being insulted anymore. And I'm talking about more than RBA here.

Hell, perhaps he's bothered by the fact that he can't make a comment in half the damn threads on this board anymore because he knows he'll get bashed, mercilessly, should he dare to open his mouth.

Excuse me... but if RBA is gone for thses reasons, then goodbye to him. You portray him in such an innocent light. Give me a darn break. Give more more than a darn break.

He likes to point out that he has been there (Iraq). So I ask him a question about dissing his Commander-in-Chief and he decides to leave. Sorry that I was so truthful to him. Make no mistake... I cannot cost the guy his job or send him to a brig. But if he was worried about it, then he should get a new job or quit violating the rules put in place for HIS JOB. Give him a box of Kleenex on his way to internet utopia as far as I am concerned. He is one of the biggest rabblerousers on here. Doesn't bother me, but he had better not live in that darn glasshouse here on RZ. Fair enough? It should be.

Dare open his mouth? When in the hell has that stopped him?? You must be joking. If you aren't, then there is no sense in talking about this anymore.

I'd like to know why the same consistency is not used on both sides? Or do certain mods just do certain sides? I've seen some mods do both, but not all mods.

LvJ
01-18-2005, 02:18 PM
Dealing with him would have fixed the majority of the problems we've seen lately.

You and others insult just as much as he does. You just hide it in a more smart-alleck way. Cbus is lazy, so he uses smilies. Theres really no difference. ";) :thumbup:"

Spring~Fields
01-18-2005, 02:19 PM
I'd be thrilled if the political threads got the boot. All they do is build up animosity.

I agree.

Besides they bring out the worst in me and I have been trying to make myself stay off them.

I really believe the theme/the jist of the political and religious threads have been hashed and rehashed to death.

Unassisted
01-18-2005, 02:20 PM
Lately, I've grown disenchanted with the nature of politics and am finding it easier to resist the temptation to post in political threads. My disenchantment with the discourse in political threads has consciously led me to start fewer non-baseball topics. I can count on one hand the number of threads I've started in non-bb since the first of the year, while in 2004, I'd start maybe 2-3 a day. My interest in helping the climate on this side of the board has absolutely waned and you can pin the blame squarely on these vitriolic political threads.

If the mod corps doesn't want the hassle, IMHO that's reason enough to give the subject a rest. I'd rather have a good place to discuss and read about my favorite baseball team than to have a place to air out my opinions on issues.

LvJ
01-18-2005, 02:24 PM
My real advice: Created a political sub-forum.

If one must defend/debate/discuss an article, a news posting, a war, or a fat man with a camera, than one can enter into the realms of the political sub-forum!!!

RosieRed
01-18-2005, 02:27 PM
For what it's worth, I think it would be a shame if all political threads were banned altogether. I know it's a baseball site ... and if you want to visit the site just for baseball, that's already possible. With all that's going on in the world, I think it would be nice to be able to have discussions about it.

Of course, the problem is within the discussions themselves. I expect discussions on politics and other heated topics to get, well, heated on occassion. What I don't get is the posters who will instantly start in on the name calling, or the accusations, or the dismissive emoticons. It happens so frequently, and often at the fingers of the same posters, that I sometimes wonder if said posters think it's a game. Or maybe they think being insulting is okay? Or funny? Or cool? I don't know. I do know that I don't get it.

We are capable of being respectful; one just has to choose to do so. Maybe that's too hard for some people?

zombie-a-go-go
01-18-2005, 02:31 PM
Dare open his mouth? When in the hell has that stopped him?? You must be joking. If you aren't, then there is no sense in talking about this anymore.

I'd like to know why the same consistency is not used on both sides? Or do certain mods just do certain sides? I've seen some mods do both, but not all mods.

66 - two things. First, I was not referring to RBA, I was referring to "Unnamed RedsZone Poster." The RedsZone poster as a Platonic ideal. Get it?

Second, you can not possibly know what the mods do here behind the scenes, because frankly, you're not privy to that information. So I'd reconsider my words before I started talking about things I have no knowledge of.

LvJ
01-18-2005, 02:37 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. :fineprint

RedFanAlways1966
01-18-2005, 02:40 PM
66 - two things. First, I was not referring to RBA, I was referring to "Unnamed RedsZone Poster." The RedsZone poster as a Platonic ideal. Get it?

Second, you can not possibly know what the mods do here behind the scenes, because frankly, you're not privy to that information. So I'd reconsider my words before I started talking about things I have no knowledge of.

As in your first post to this thread... said with much charm. I know... as I don't know, congeniality is not a prerequisite to being a mod here. It seemed to be at one time though. Oh well. Such is life. And I'd rather not know what goes on behind your scenes.

Have a nice day, moderator! :)

Cedric
01-18-2005, 02:41 PM
Power corrupts power. Even in the most simplest form.

HotCorner
01-18-2005, 02:42 PM
My real advice: Created a political sub-forum.

If one must defend/debate/discuss an article, a news posting, a war, or a fat man with a camera, than one can enter into the realms of the political sub-forum!!!

:thumbup:

[/golf clap]

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 02:51 PM
As in your first post to this thread... said with much charm. I know... as I don't know, congeniality is not a prerequisite to being a mod here. It seemed to be at one time though. Oh well. Such is life. And I'd rather not know what goes on behind your scenes.

Have a nice day, moderator! :)

Come on now, lets reason a little bit here.

It isnt Zombie, or any other mods purpose to take sides in any argument and use their mod skills :MandJ: to moderate an argument, but it is their purpose to moderate a thread. Follow what I am saying here... the mods arent closing discussions because they dont agree with them, its because they are approaching the line that if crossed, could turn it into a flame war. What happens when we have a flame war? people get banned. I would bet good money that if that thread with you and RBA arguing would have been left open, one or probably both of you would be banned by now.

Fact is, someone has to moderate these boards. and some people are making it really hard for our mods to do that. When they take action, Im convinced it isnt personal, but I think alot of you people think it is.

Chip R
01-18-2005, 03:06 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of a "subscription + package". Subscription costs you $XX/month, quarter, year and you get access to all redszone + HOF forum. Subscription + costs you subscription + another fee and you get all of redszone + HOF forum + political forum.

That way people are paying extra for the political forum. If they enter that forum, they do so willingly and know what they are getting into.

Regular subscribers don't have access to the Political forum. That way those that pay money as subscribers aren't bothered by the Political forum unless they choose to upgrade and specifically request the "perk" of politics.
My point was that I - and others - don't feel that is much of a privilege. It's like if your dog pooped in the living room, to solve the problem you move the poop into the bedroom. The same thing keeps happening but it is just in another place.

The problem isn't the political threads per se, it's the way that people speak to each other in them. It'd be nice if people could treat each other - and their ideas - civilly in those threads and sometimes they do. But too much of the time it's the other way around. And then there are the threads that are started specifically for the purpose of antagonizing people that are on the other side of the fence. It's all great sport to them. They don't care about the bruised feelings or resentment that carries over to the baseball side just as long as they have their fun.

If folks are so intent on discussing politics, there are scores of other message boards to do that on. I'm of the opinion that it has denegrated here to a point where it's no longer constructive to do it here. Well respected posters have left here because of all that political BS.

I don't want this to sound like I hate freedom of speech or that it's too much work to moderate those threads. It's not that at all. It's the attitudes that are taken with each other and the constant prodding and poking just to elicit a response - which is, essentially, trolling. Don't blame us if the political threads go away. Blame yourselves.

pedro
01-18-2005, 03:17 PM
It's unfortunate that we can't play nice b/c the beauty of being able to discuss politics here at redszone is that that are many people here with different viewpoints. That can drive some great discussions. The problem with actual political chatboards is that they are not drawing diverse opinions and there is no balance. It's just everyone piling on one side or the other. TMBS, I find it hard to disagree with anything Chip had to say.

TeamCasey
01-18-2005, 03:19 PM
Then how about this: This is a baseball website.

Not to get into the rest of it, so I'll only comment on this point. I'd hate for us to go baseball only. We have had friendships form on this site over the years. We do talk about other things. I like having a non-baseball side to congregate.

It keeps some of the sillier stuff off the baseball side, I think to the benefit of the baseball side.

TeamCasey
01-18-2005, 03:21 PM
Come oooonnn SPRING TRAINING!!! :D

That will certainly help too. :)

Rojo
01-18-2005, 03:22 PM
My $.02: Written language is the tried-and-true best way to conduct a civilized arguement. "Smilies", however, give posters the ability to just stick out their tongue instead of countering. I'd vote to do away with a lot of them.

TeamCasey
01-18-2005, 03:24 PM
Those threads lost their appeal to me when the same movies/songs were being repeated five or six times.

So, you simply stopped visiting them. That's cool. Doesn't mean there aren't other people that still enjoy them.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2005, 03:25 PM
For a bunch of conservatives, you guys get a big ole chuckle outta playing the "victim." I thought only minorities did that, right big guys?

I agree with Chip as well. I've gotten pitched for crossing the line, and I recognized I had and accepted the ban. I didn't whine like a freakin' baby about it. You guys kill me.

westofyou
01-18-2005, 03:27 PM
Stop talkin politics?

You can blow out a candle
But you can't blow out a fire
Once the flames begin to catch
The wind will blow it higher

jmcclain19
01-18-2005, 03:29 PM
Personally I hope we keep the political threads.

There are several people (Rojo/Pedro/Redsfaithful/westofyou) who's views conflict with my own and I enjoy the back and forth that resides in those threads.

It's the personal attacks and the flame wars that disappoint me. But those always happen in politics, it's personal for some.

There are plenty of people on this board I consider friendly to me that I don't agree with 1% of politically. And I'm fine with that, I hope they are as well.

I guess I don't see it spilling over into other things on the board, but that could be because I'm not looking for it.

Is the board, outside of the political threads, really that fractured because of it.

I think the baseball board gets 4 to 5 times the traffic. If we are worried about people being upset over things said on Redszone.com, I would worry most about that side.

Chip R
01-18-2005, 03:30 PM
For a bunch of conservatives, you guys get a big ole chuckle outta playing the "victim." I thought only minorities did that, right big guys?

I agree with Chip as well. I've gotten pitched for crossing the line, and I recognized I had and accepted the ban. I didn't whine like a freakin' baby about it. You guys kill me.
And thank you for so eloquently proving my point, FCB.

Stormy
01-18-2005, 03:34 PM
The answer definitely isn't to abolish political threads, anymore than it is to censure the innumerable SABR/Traditionalist discussions which are run into the ground, or which inevitably turn personal. I couldn't agree more with Redsfaithful's comments on the matter. Chip is right that we would all we well served to try to remove the personal invective from our exchanges on such topics. We really should practice that type of civility towards other's views, as we enjoy each other's perspectives on so many other subjects, that it is a shame to have that subverted by getting personal over political positions. The forum is probably just a reflection of the national poltical discourse and rhetoric in that regard though. It's unfortunate, but I don't think banishing all political discussion in the interest of limiting trolling and personal insults is a very wise trade-off.

Personally, I really enjoy those who post disparate views about political issues (Redsfaithful, Rojo, pedro), and simply ignore those whose intent is to bait-and-namecall. It's not too difficult to discern between the two.

Stormy
01-18-2005, 03:37 PM
I could have saved that response, as pedro and jmcclain's remarks reflect my own views, perfectly.

Doc. Scott
01-18-2005, 03:40 PM
It's unfortunate that we can't play nice b/c the beauty of being able to discuss politics here at redszone is that that are many people here with different viewpoints. That can drive some great discussions. The problem with actual political chatboards is that they are not drawing diverse opinions and there is no balance. It's just everyone piling on one side or the other.

Bingo. This alone should be enough to maintain a non-baseball section of the site that covers any topics worth talking about. This diversity we have here is incredibly rare on the Internet, a mechanism that builds tribal communities brilliantly- but tribes are so often homogeneous.

I don't even bother reading most of the political threads on this board. I've only posted in non-baseball threads a handful of times. Move the "sensitive" topics to a subscriber area so people have to make something of a commitment to the community before they get to play Romans in the forum- but don't take them away.

Having a diverse place to express oneself does a lot for a lot of members of this community; the separation by distance means that we don't witness or memorably experience the changes that we've wrought in each other through this kind of interaction. But they've happened (as hinted by several posters), whether we always realize it or not.

One of the main reasons political discourse in this country has become so polarized is because we've all surrounded ourselves with people that agree with us- people of the same age, ethnicity, social class, and perspective. I'm no different.

I urge the moderators to maintain some (maybe more regulated) sort of political area as a strike against this brand of stratification.

Chip R
01-18-2005, 03:44 PM
The answer definitely isn't to abolish political threads, anymore than it is to censure the innumerable SABR/Traditionalist discussions which are run into the ground, or which inevitably turn personal. I couldn't agree more with Redsfaithful's comments on the matter. Chip is right that we would all we well served to try to remove the personal invective from our exchanges on such topics. We really should practice that type of civility towards other's views, as we enjoy each other's perspectives on so many other subjects, that it is a shame to have that subverted by getting personal over political positions.That would be nice but, as I stated before, we have tried and tried and tried to get folks to play nice. But it's as futile as a politician's campaign promise. Some simply can't help themselves. They will be nice for a couple of weeks after they have been warned and then gradually slip back into their old habits.

Doc. Scott
01-18-2005, 03:51 PM
That would be nice but, as I stated before, we have tried and tried and tried to get folks to play nice. But it's as futile as a politician's campaign promise. Some simply can't help themselves. They will be nice for a couple of weeks after they have been warned and then gradually slip back into their old habits.

So you discipline the offenders. One too many offenses, see ya. Just like society (is supposed to) work/s.

Is it the complaining you get from the offended that's rankling you?

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 03:55 PM
To be honest, Im all in favor of banning political threads. It seems like every day I come in here, someone has posted a thread for the sole purpose of whining, or saying "I told you so" or "This is why you should hate Bush", even worse is when someone totally defiles a thread like the infamous tsunami thread, and uses it as something to boost their political agenda.

If you want to whine and cry and try to change someones mind, write your congressman, because you arent going to change my mind.

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 03:58 PM
To be honest, Im all in favor of banning political threads. It seems like every day I come in here, someone has posted a thread for the sole purpose of whining, or saying "I told you so" or "This is why you should hate Bush", even worse is when someone totally defiles a thread like the infamous tsunami thread, and uses it as something to boost their political agenda.

If you want to whine and cry and try to change someones mind, write your congressman, because you arent going to change my mind.

You could always not read the threads, but I guess that would deprive us all of your elequent emoticon usage.

And surely that would be a tragedy.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 04:02 PM
You could always not read the threads, but I guess that would deprive us all of your elequent emoticon usage.

And surely that would be a tragedy.


Well how about this, continue to post your whiny stories about how bad republicans are and how we should all hate bush, and I will continue to show my feelings about them by using emoticons. I can deal with that. If you cant? then stop posting them or put me on ignore. I'm not breaking any rules.

Or you can call the ACLU, Im sure they would be as upset as you are about my emoticon "abuse". :MandJ:

westofyou
01-18-2005, 04:03 PM
The world is a big place, learn to deal with other POV's and you won't get so angry when they don't say what you want to hear.

Chip R
01-18-2005, 04:03 PM
So you discipline the offenders. One too many offenses, see ya. Just like society (is supposed to) work/s.

Is it the complaining you get from the offended that's rankling you?
If we disciplined everyone who got nasty with each other, it would be an awful lonely board.

No, it's not the complaining that is getting us riled. I already said it isn't the complaining or the time spent having to discipline others. If that was the case, I'd have quit being a mod a long time ago. Go back a page or two and read my posts if you want to know the reason.

WVRed
01-18-2005, 04:04 PM
You could always not read the threads, but I guess that would deprive us all of your elequent emoticon usage.

And surely that would be a tragedy.

*insert emoticon here*

Johnny Footstool
01-18-2005, 04:04 PM
Part of my interest in this board is the fact that I can read vastly differing opinions from many sides of any given topic. I think one of the things that sets RedsZone apart is it's lack of groupthink. Without the vigorous discussion of controversial topics (namely politics), the board would lose much of its flavor and appeal.

It looks like there are several of us on both political "sides" who would like to continue posting, debating, and arguing politics. I think we can all do a better job of keeping the discussions more intelligent and thoughtful than the kind that go on during recess in grade school. I also think we can all do a better job of blowing off minor insults and perceived personal attacks. Intelligent adults should be able to disagree without killing each other OR complaining to the moderators all the time.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 04:05 PM
Better yet, call Jesse Jackson, Maybe he can pickett outside my house and organize a boycott for everyone I know to stop being my friend.


emoticon abuse is serious business.

Johnny Footstool
01-18-2005, 04:09 PM
If we disciplined everyone who got nasty with each other, it would be an awful lonely board.

Actually, I think in most cases a warning would solve the problem for any of us who really want to be here and participate in the community.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2005, 04:11 PM
Intelligent adults should be able to disagree without killing each other OR complaining to the moderators all the time.


I agree. It's the internet; no one gets a black eye, broken ribs. I actually see very few personal attacks here--a whole big bunch of calling ideologies and people (public figures) within certain ideologies all sorts of nasty things--but when it comes to direct personal abuses, I don't see it all that much (though, admittedly, I'm guilty of having done it).

CougarQuest
01-18-2005, 04:16 PM
Interestingly enough, some of the people complaining the most in this thread are the ones we get the most complaints about. And interestingly enough, the complaints they raise are the complaints we receive about them. They can see it in others, but can't see it in themselves.

WVRed
01-18-2005, 04:16 PM
Actually, I think in most cases a warning would solve the problem for any of us who really want to be here and participate in the community.

I think that has happened one too many times already. People get warned, act goody two-shoes for a week or two, and its back to the same old discussion.

I dont know how banning politics would work here or not. A high school basketball board I posted on banned discussing whether or not one school in the state was recruiting athletes because it became very heated and it flooded the board. Even though it was banned, it was still discussed and the threads ran their course.

Chip R
01-18-2005, 04:18 PM
Actually, I think in most cases a warning would solve the problem for any of us who really want to be here and participate in the community.
Do you think we haven't tried that? I feel like I'm repeating myself. We have warned individual posters, as well as everyone on the board to be nice time and time again. It works for a while but it then goes back to the way it was before. Just like the guy who makes a New Year's resolution to work out at the gym and then after a few weeks, he starts skipping a day here or a day there and then he stops going entirely.

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 04:30 PM
Interestingly enough, some of the people complaining the most in this thread are the ones we get the most complaints about. And interestingly enough, the complaints they raise are the complaints we receive about them. They can see it in others, but can't see it in themselves.

So discipline them? Or warn them? Or something?

I haven't gotten a PM from a mod since I made a very stupid comment over a year ago. If I've been complained about I haven't heard anything about it. Now I have no idea if I've been complained about, but I have to wonder if mods are taking any action at all on complaints received?

I remember getting a PM from, I think, 15fan a long, long time ago telling me to watch it in a thread and I took it pretty seriously to heart. And I didn't take it personally. I can't speak for anyone else, but it's difficult to know if mods are really trying to defuse the situation or if they just lock threads when things get completely out of hand.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure right?

Johnny Footstool
01-18-2005, 04:34 PM
Do you think we haven't tried that?

I don't know how it has been handled. But if you guys have been giving repeated warnings to certain individuals and they're not responding, it's time to escalate the discipline level.

RFS62
01-18-2005, 04:37 PM
I'd hate to see the political threads go, but I'm not a mod doing all the work and hearing all the complaints.

If the people who have to clean up the mess, for free, are saying they're sick of the stench, then the people making the mess need to stop, or the party is over.

RosieRed
01-18-2005, 04:40 PM
It seems to me that this needn't be a discussion about the moderators, who I think do a good job. Remember this is something they do, for free, to help this board remain as good as it is. If you don't like the way the board is moderated, or have concerns about it, maybe you should take it up directly with the mods or admins.

Just think, if people could be civil to each other in the political threads, the mods wouldn't even come up in this discussion. But because some people refuse to be civil, or mature, or whatever you want to call it, the mods get dragged in.

CougarQuest
01-18-2005, 04:41 PM
When most threads are closed there are reasons put in there as to why they are closed. If you are so closed minded that you think those comments aren't directed at you, it only applies to eveyone else, perhaps now is a time to re-think your posting habits.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 04:42 PM
Just so you know, Im not stopping my emoticon abuse until Redsfaithful gets either Jesse Jackson or the ACLU to knock on my door!

:MandJ:

emoticon abuse is serious business. so is the interweb.

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 04:45 PM
When most threads are closed there are reasons put in there as to why they are closed. If you are so closed minded that you think those comments aren't directed at you, it only applies to eveyone else, perhaps now is a time to re-think your posting habits.

/shrug

Putting a message in for everyone to read apparently doesn't work. PM's might.

I know it's heresy to suggest that the mods might not be handling an issue in the most helpful manner but there you go.

MWM
01-18-2005, 04:46 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if THIS thread ends up getting closed down?

zombie-a-go-go
01-18-2005, 04:46 PM
Oh man, you cats are killing me.

Look, I loved the fact that there were so many opposing viewpoints here when I first joined up. I totally dug it. There was so much data here that I wasn't getting from the mainstream media, and so many differing viewpoints that I wasn't getting from my circle of friends, that I was blown away. Metaphorically, of course, I didn't actually fall out of my chair... nevermind.

But you want to talk about better moderation of the threads? You've got to be kidding me. PMs don't work for a lot of it. Some people get banned for a day or two, play nice for a month, and then go back to the insults. Some of you are intelligent in the threads, and your words are well thought-out. Totally dig that. Others, though...

The reasoning behind the potential ban on p-talk is that people no longer attack each other. Wha? Naah... they attack ideas now. Points of view. And that's totally sweet - love that. Love it. It's the snide, rude, denigrating manner in which they do it that has some of us considering shutting the whole thing down.

"I didn't insult *insert poster here*," they cry, "I just said that everything he believed in is a crock of :censored: . That's not against the CoC."

And thus we say 'well, technically he didn't insult that guy.' And it continues. And people's feelings are getting hurt because some of you are too callous to give a damn about how the guy on the other end of the message board feels.

And then, finally, more than half of the pp-threads started here are trolls. For example: George Bush and lesbian sheep or whatever that thread was. Sore Loser threads. Sore Winner threads. Red State Voters are Hicks. C'mon.

You can't tell me garbage like that is "political discourse."

Like Chip and Coug and myself have said, we like the p-talk. And if nobody wanted it, it would have been banned long ago. But it's degenerated into baiting, name-calling, mudslinging, and all that other crap.

Look at this thread. Some people have said "moderate more" while others have said "there's too much moderation."

What can we agree on, here?

RosieRed
01-18-2005, 04:47 PM
Just so you know, Im not stopping my emoticon abuse until Redsfaithful gets either Jesse Jackson or the ACLU to knock on my door!

:MandJ:

emoticon abuse is serious business. so is the interweb.

Cbus, I have to ask: Why do you keep bringing this up?

RosieRed
01-18-2005, 04:49 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if THIS thread ends up getting closed down?

Would be par for the course, IMO.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 04:51 PM
Cbus, I have to ask: Why do you keep bringing this up?

Its just the irony of this all.

Stormy
01-18-2005, 04:51 PM
It seems to me that this needn't be a discussion about the moderators, who I think do a good job. Remember this is something they do, for free, to help this board remain as good as it is. If you don't like the way the board is moderated, or have concerns about it, maybe you should take it up directly with the mods or admins.

Just think, if people could be civil to each other in the political threads, the mods wouldn't even come up in this discussion. But because some people refuse to be civil, or mature, or whatever you want to call it, the mods get dragged in.

Great stuff! When I mentioned the idea of possible solutions to keeping political threads viable, the last thing on my mind was making it a referendum on the moderators. CQ, ChipR et al are doing a fantastic job, and the overall tenor of the board reflects that. We should be able to mostly be responsible for our own civility... and if we can't therein lies the problem, not in how the situation is being handled by moderators. If you (or I) can seriously engage in a thread which has devolved into one personal attack or barb after another, and still need a moderator to warn you regarding what you've just done... then that's the problem, rather than how the moderators choose to respond.

If we could all just reflect upon Rosie's avatar before posting, some of these flames would be doused before they started. :) I just posted again, to clarify that the fact that I'd like to see a continuation of political discourse on the forum, sure isn't an indictment against the moderators (if we all demonstrated Chip or Coug's degree of restraint and discretion, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now).

LvJ
01-18-2005, 04:52 PM
"I didn't insult *insert poster here*," they cry, "I just said that everything he believed in is a crock of :censored: . That's not against the CoC."

:eek: :MandJ:

Stormy
01-18-2005, 04:53 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if THIS thread ends up getting closed down?

Not really. Tell me you didn't assume it the second you saw/read the first post? :) The fact that it should be ironic is duly noted though.

RosieRed
01-18-2005, 04:56 PM
I know it's heresy to suggest that the mods might not be handling an issue in the most helpful manner but there you go.

The point is, it shouldn't reach the point where mods have to be involved as much as they are. Of course they're going to have to step in on occassion, but what do you want them to do when they have to deal with this every day? Short of permanently banning repeat offenders, they can only do everything that they've already tried. (PMing people, one-day bans, putting messages in the threads they close, etc.)

The mods shouldn't have to be baby-sitters in the first place, IMO, but it seems that's what it's coming to.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 04:57 PM
:eek: :MandJ:


watch yourself buddy...



...serious business!

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 05:00 PM
The point is, it shouldn't reach the point where mods have to be involved as much as they are. Of course they're going to have to step in on occassion, but what do you want them to do when they have to deal with this every day? Short of permanently banning repeat offenders, they can only do everything that they've already tried. (PMing people, one-day bans, putting messages in the threads they close, etc.)

The mods shouldn't have to be baby-sitters in the first place, IMO, but it seems that's what it's coming to.

I agree. But what do you do with the people who don't?

I guess ban all political threads seems to be the consensus, but I'd rather just see the few (and I do think it's very few) instigators dealt with.

Apparently I'm an instigator too though, so what do I know.

Doc. Scott
01-18-2005, 05:00 PM
No, it's not the complaining that is getting us riled. I already said it isn't the complaining or the time spent having to discipline others. If that was the case, I'd have quit being a mod a long time ago. Go back a page or two and read my posts if you want to know the reason.

Okay, I'll do that.


The problem isn't the political threads per se, it's the way that people speak to each other in them. It'd be nice if people could treat each other - and their ideas - civilly in those threads and sometimes they do. But too much of the time it's the other way around. And then there are the threads that are started specifically for the purpose of antagonizing people that are on the other side of the fence. It's all great sport to them. They don't care about the bruised feelings or resentment that carries over to the baseball side just as long as they have their fun.

So we go back to what I said before. Apply the same standards to everyone. Broken rules= disciplinary action. Too many disciplinary actions= ban. End of story.

If it's not the time commitment or the feelings of playing traffic cop, and each of you that are mods like doing it, why would it be such emotional trouble to carry this out? When people are disciplined for their actions in an evenhanded way, most everyone who claims they're leaving the community (something I assume you want to prevent) will reconsider. What makes people stay gone is when persistent trolls and offenders are not removed or "re-educated".

Pardon the inquiries, but this virtually exact issue has come up on at least one other board I frequent (one that's more classically homogeneous like I was saying before) and I had a hard time getting the mods there to explain why allowing political forums was such a burden on them.

On this other board most of the posters knew each other personally, so I argued that this kept us on the proper side of the line, for fear of angering real-life friends the next time we saw each other (because how many people really want to lose friends, or even acquaintances, over a disagreement they had in cyberspace?).

This board is much larger and less directly personal- only a small portion of the regular posters have even met each other before- but I'm sure there is a workable solution rolling around in here somewhere. Maybe one particular mod who doesn't mind doing it can be assigned specifically to non-baseball threads.

And I still think requiring some sort of commitment- like a membership- to post in non-baseball threads helps create more of a sense of investment in a real place. That's ultimately the best way to retain members that care about the self-sufficiency of the community- people who won't stand for the reckless disregard of others.

CbusRed
01-18-2005, 05:02 PM
Apparently I'm an instigator too though, so what do I know.


Agreed. :thumbup:



You did say earlier that you start 75% of these threads.

RosieRed
01-18-2005, 05:09 PM
I agree. But what do you do with the people who don't?

I guess ban all political threads seems to be the consensus, but I'd rather just see the few (and I do think it's very few) instigators dealt with.

Apparently I'm an instigator too though, so what do I know.

I don't know what to do about the people who refuse to be civil. It's a shame ... a few spoiled apples, etc.

(I do think I'm going to start putting some of them on my ignore list though. I've never used it before, but now seems like a good time to start.)

I agree with you Redsfaithful, I'd rather the political threads be allowed to exist and just have the posters who get them closed dealt with. But if the current way of dealing with them isn't working, I don't know what should be done.

Do we need a sticky on this side of the board that goes over the rules again and clearly says something like "if you can't play nice, don't play at all"? And it can spell out the ramifications for not playing nice?

Larkin Fan
01-18-2005, 05:09 PM
/shrug

Putting a message in for everyone to read apparently doesn't work. PM's might.

I know it's heresy to suggest that the mods might not be handling an issue in the most helpful manner but there you go.

Respectfully, RF, you have no idea what these moderators go through on a daily basis or the amount of time that they have to put into addressing problems on this board and cleaning up messes that they didn't create. This time, of course, is time that they DONATE to this site. Chip has already stated several times that the warnings have become fruitless and the problems continue, hence making them look at other avenues for addressing the growing problem. I don't know how they can make that any more clear.

It really bothers me that this has turned into an attack on the way the mods do their job. These guys do a fantastic job that not many on this board want any part of. If only you knew what they have to weed through on a daily basis, as far as complaints, etc. If you did, maybe your tone would change.

This isn't an issue of the mods at all. It's an issue of people that can hold discourse civilly like adults. The sooners some realize that, the better.

Redsfaithful
01-18-2005, 05:13 PM
If you did, maybe your tone would change.

My tone? I don't think I've been anything but respectful in this thread.

I think the mods do a great job. Just because I think they might be handling one thing the wrong way doesn't mean I don't appreciate them. And I'm certainly willing to admit that I could be wrong.

But I second everything Doc Scott said.

Puffy
01-18-2005, 05:16 PM
I think I have a story that will shed light on all this.

This one time, at band camp, we had a bunch of people who played the flute. They thought they were better than the saxophone people. The saxophone people, the flute players felt, were hippies with no regard for the cafeteria food. The flute players, the sax players mused, had no regard for the bears. Then one day the cafeteria served bear for dinner and all the problems were solved.

The end.

Red Leader
01-18-2005, 05:19 PM
I think I have a story that will shed light on all this.

This one time, at band camp, we had a bunch of people who played the flute. They thought they were better than the saxophone people. The saxophone people, the flute players felt, were hippies with no regard for the cafeteria food. The flute players, the sax players mused, had no regard for the bears. Then one day the cafeteria served bear for dinner and all the problems were solved.

The end.

BRILLIANT!

zombie-a-go-go
01-18-2005, 05:21 PM
I think I have a story that will shed light on all this.

This one time, at band camp, we had a bunch of people who played the flute. They thought they were better than the saxophone people. The saxophone people, the flute players felt, were hippies with no regard for the cafeteria food. The flute players, the sax players mused, had no regard for the bears. Then one day the cafeteria served bear for dinner and all the problems were solved.

The end.

You are truly the Great Problem-Solver-Guy of our time, Puffy. :lol:

CougarQuest
01-18-2005, 05:28 PM
I've sent PM's to posters before that they never read. I've tried sending them an email, and that email address is closed. So what you do is try to be graceful about it and give gentle reminders in the thread, where so many of the participants have gone awry, and close the thread. You'd think they'd catch on. But apparently they think it's always the other guy who was the problem. When obviously its not just the other guy. I recall zombie moderating an issue and one side called him a liberal lover and was protecting the liberals and the other side called him a conservative lover protecting the conservatives.

Unassisted
01-18-2005, 05:35 PM
I've sent PM's to posters before that they never read. I've tried sending them an email, and that email address is closed. Coug, I think that the owners of the board are doing you mods a disservice by allowing users to prevent you from reaching them off the board. If a user's email address is bad or their account won't allow PMs, the user should be locked out until they correct that.

Having a valid email address is required to register here. It should also be required to stay registered.

savafan
01-18-2005, 05:45 PM
Sadly, it seems like Redszone is turning into cincinnatitalk.com

TeamCasey
01-18-2005, 05:52 PM
Sadly, it seems like Redszone is turning into cincinnatitalk.com

Nah! I don't think it's that bad. It's the same people bickering with each other. They just need to learn to bicker like grown-ups.

The real trolls don't stand to last a day here.

jmcclain19
01-18-2005, 05:58 PM
They just need to learn to bicker like grown-ups.

heh, that's just what we need, Redszone lawsuits ;)

jmcclain19
01-18-2005, 05:59 PM
But apparently they think it's always the other guy who was the problem. When obviously its not just the other guy. I recall zombie moderating an issue and one side called him a liberal lover and was protecting the liberals and the other side called him a conservative lover protecting the conservatives.

It's the truth.

Zombie is a lousy liberal loving conservative sympathizer.

I say we string him up?

Or is that too harsh.

Unassisted
01-18-2005, 06:04 PM
Maybe those who refuse to play nice in political discussions should go find/open another board for that purpose? I know of a local board that has loose moderation and lets people whale on each other over the issues. I bet those of you who dig that sort of thing could find one like it and be very happy.

Larkin Fan
01-18-2005, 06:09 PM
Sadly, it seems like Redszone is turning into cincinnatitalk.com

Hardly.

Johnny Footstool
01-18-2005, 06:20 PM
It's an issue of people that can hold discourse civilly like adults. The sooners some realize that, the better.

I agree. That's part of the problem.

The rest of the problem comes from figuring out how we all (mods and non-mods alike) can make people play nice when they refuse to do so.

WVRed
01-18-2005, 06:22 PM
Hardly.

Amen to that. If this board even came close to going the route Cincy Talk went, I WOULD find another forum to post at.

Fortunately it will never come to that :thumbup:

Doc. Scott
01-18-2005, 06:29 PM
Maybe those who refuse to play nice in political discussions should go find/open another board for that purpose? I know of a local board that has loose moderation and lets people whale on each other over the issues. I bet those of you who dig that sort of thing could find one like it and be very happy.

Right, a tribal community. RedsZone's got a mighty large tribe it's drawing from (only one requirement: you like baseball... or at least think players have hot butts or whatever) , which makes it different from 95% of the other interest-based boards out there. Appreciate the thought, reject the larger purpose.

Spring~Fields
01-18-2005, 06:56 PM
To be honest, Im all in favor of banning political threads. It seems like every day I come in here, someone has posted a thread for the sole purpose of whining, or saying "I told you so" or "This is why you should hate Bush", even worse is when someone totally defiles a thread like the infamous tsunami thread, and uses it as something to boost their political agenda.

If you want to whine and cry and try to change someones mind, write your congressman, because you arent going to change my mind.

That is what I have seen him do over and over with the copy n paste of anothers work in an attempt to achieve what you have clearly defined, "for the sole purpose of whining, or saying "I told you so" or "This is why you should hate Bush"," the same masked and thinly veiled flame over and over.

I mean just how many ways can the guy copy n paste anothers work only to say basically the same thing over and over i.e. Bush stinks, and religous people are head cases, is he really saying anything more?

jmcclain19
01-18-2005, 06:58 PM
Right, a tribal community. RedsZone's got a mighty large tribe it's drawing from (only one requirement: you like baseball... or at least think players have hot butts or whatever) , which makes it different from 95% of the other interest-based boards out there. Appreciate the thought, reject the larger purpose.

If it's a tribal community, shouldn't we get the right to vote some members off the island from time to time? :devil:

I'm kidding of course, don't want to make too light of what Doc said, he has some valid points in there that I agree with.

Spring~Fields
01-18-2005, 07:15 PM
Agreed. :thumbup:



You did say earlier that you start 75% of these threads.

75% of these threads and that is not beating a dead horse to death?

Really I got his point of view long, long ago.

Chip R
01-18-2005, 07:39 PM
This isn't an issue of the mods at all. It's an issue of people that can hold discourse civilly like adults. The sooners some realize that, the better.
And that's the reason why we are even considering banning all political threads in a nutshell. I mean all you have to do is go back a few pages and unless you are blind or just so dense that you can't understand, you can see the same thing is happening here. Liberals start taunting conservatives about whining and vice versa.

I do appreciate everyone's input, even most of the critical comments. I for one am not offended and I welcome the input. Yes, we could just let things go with another warning and start smacking down people who do not heed the warnings. But we don't want to have to do that. Most of the regulars who post in these threads are valuable contributors to RedsZone both on the baseball side and the non-baseball side. I don't want to have to ban someone like GAC because he lost his temper and said something he shouldn't have. That's not what the intent of the rules are for. The rules are for people like Gallagher or del la Hoz - who some found entertaining but he went overboard - or some 16 year old kid who has nothing better to do than to try to mess with people here. It's very easy to sit there and say, "Ban him" or "Ban her". But when it happens to you or a kindred spirit it's not so easy any more. We don't want to lose anyone who is a good poster just because of a lapse or two in judgement.

We have tried to be tolerant of the political threads. We have cajoled, we have threatened, we have begged, we have pleaded for you to be respectful of one another in these threads. Moving them to another forum isn't going to solve any problems. If I called someone a crypto-fascist (or something like that) and they read it and they were hurt because of that, no moderator can delete that. You can close the thread, delete the post, delete the thread, ban me for saying that but that person still knows I said it and they are still hurt. And it doesn't matter where it's said, it's still wrong to say it.

Will banning all political threads make everyone get along with each other? Of course not. After all, we still have the SABR/Traditional threads. ;) But I think there would be a lot more civility towards each other. And perhaps people of different views could sit down with each other and have a conversation without one knowing the other has called him or her names in the past.

RedsBaron
01-18-2005, 07:46 PM
I hope the political threads stay open. I have found them to be a good source of news and points of view that I might not always otherwise receive. I have been offended from time to time and I've possibly offended someone myself, but I wouldn't want to see political discussions banned.
Yes, some posters are tiresome. If a person really wants some credibility, he or she should show some willingness to at least listen and consider another point of view. There are certain posters here, on both sides of the political fence, who will only post something that reinforces their own viewpoint. If a poster doesn't like President Smith and there are ten news items, nine of which reflect positively on President Smith and one of which does not, the one negative story will be all the poster wants to talk about; if a poster likes President Smith and nine out of ten news items reflect poorly on President Smith, that poster will assert that only the one positive story matters. Posters with such an agenda leave something to be desired IMO.
Calling those with whom you disagree stupid or uncaring or immoral may make you feel good, but does nothing to persuade anyone else.

Boss-Hog
01-18-2005, 08:13 PM
I imagine some of you are wondering why I haven't been involved in this thread, and the truth of the matter is that, save for the months surrounding the election, I don't pay much attention to the non-baseball forum because it's dominated by political threads and that's not something I come here for. That doesn't necessarily mean I have a problem with them being there - just that I have no interest in participating in these discussions, at least on this site. However after taking a look, if I had known things were as bad as they appear to be, this situation would have been resolved in some manner or another a long time ago.

Anyway, as you can likely tell, we are considering doing away with political/religious threads as one possible option. I agree with those who have said that the bickering has led to hard feelings that have carried over to the baseball side of things and that creates a problem, since that is what this site is founded on. I can't say with certainty that we will do away with these threads, but in light of these problems, I will guarantee you that there will be a minimum of some drastic changes to this side of the board.

And thanks to those of you who have been supportive the moderators and the work they do for the site - it's a much harder chore than many realize. Don't ever think of them as babysitters because that's not what they're here to do.

Red Leader
01-18-2005, 08:20 PM
Appreciate your input, Boss.

TC81190
01-18-2005, 08:31 PM
I think I have a story that will shed light on all this.

This one time, at band camp, we had a bunch of people who played the flute. They thought they were better than the saxophone people. The saxophone people, the flute players felt, were hippies with no regard for the cafeteria food. The flute players, the sax players mused, had no regard for the bears. Then one day the cafeteria served bear for dinner and all the problems were solved.

The end.

And the Lord hath made it so. Amen.

GAC
01-18-2005, 09:08 PM
I really hope not. The immature actions of a few shouldn't dominate the actions of many.
Exactly.

And I agree with '66 on this. Someone is too "trigger happy" at closing certain threads. And when I went back and looked at those particular threads there was no profanity or excessive name calling going on.

Arguing and sharp disagreement? Yes.

But that is what happens when you discuss politics and religion, and it has always been that way since the dawn of time.

I'm appreciative that we have moderators that give of their free time to oversee this site. And there is that "minority" that like to chime in at times and don't follow the rules.

My question is this?.... do you PM that individual first, show them the thread/response that you feel is inappropriate and violates the forum rules, and then remind or warn them?

If the others on that thread, even though they are disageeing (and sometimes sharply), are not getting excessive and there is no direct violation of the rules, then why close a thread because of the actions of the one when you haven't directy addressed them?

People know that I am not afraid to jump in on a particular thread. I, for the most part, do not start political/religious threads. Someone will have to show me where/when I last started one.

But when a thread is started... and lets be honest here....it's usually started for either the sake of discussion OR to take a jab at a particular ideology. And I'm thankful that we have moderators to "watch over" the discussion that takes place on those thread. But you know what? I could care less, nor does it bother me, when someone starts a thread or takes a "jab at who I am or what I believe. It's just one little talk forum, a "dot", in this huge universe called the internet. It really means nothing or very little IMO. :lol:

And if anyone can't walk away from this forum, and any discussion that goes on on here, and not "separate" their emotions and feelings and not let it really get to them over what someone says, then maybe they themselves should consider refraining from participating? I can very easily separate it.

And there are more and more threads that I avoid anymore. And there are alot of people on here that avoid these types of threads all together. That's their choice and I respect that. It's all about "choice".

Again... I respect and are thankful for those moderators that do a great job on here. But don't let your personal feelings enter into, or be a reason for, closing a thread.

Let us argue if we want. I think some take these discussions too seriously. I don't. :lol:

If you do away with political/relgious threads on here, then what is next?

Some stay away from this side of the forum because of the type of discussions that go on (as Boss stated above). And that is fine. I don't participate on the baseball side very much anymore because of the type of discussions that go on.

Why? They don't interest me AND I have sharp disagreements with some of those discussions/ideologies.

But I don't want to see them banned or prohibited. I just chose not to participate.

Why can't peple do the same over here?

It's ridiculous to even be discussing banning political/relgious discussions on this side.

If you do that, then you will lose even more members, including myself. Why? Because I'm gonna pout and storm off?? Hardly. It's because you have removed the reasons why I come here to begin with. You've limited my choices, and are basically telling me that I can ony participate within the strict guidelines that you have set.

And that is your choice to do so. Just like it would be my choice to no longer participate.

But I have too much respect for those who started and run this forum, and I'm hoping they won't take that course.

SandyD
01-18-2005, 10:30 PM
We used to have a variety of views on this board, but now we have only two. Liberal or conservative, and "everyone" must fall into either camp. It's kind of scary, really. There's very little discussion in these threads these days. There used to be, but not anymore. (It's not just here. It's everywhere.)

Personally, I'd like to see folks step back from politics a bit. Not a actual BAN on politcal threads, just a "voluntary sabatical." And I think a LOT of us need to go back and look at what we've said in these threads and just think about how a stranger might take it. How we would take it if the roles were reversed. And wonder if that's the image we want to portray.

I expect political discussion to get heated, especially the way things are now. But the "political threads" have very little constructive discussion because they quickly degenerate and any reasoned response gets lost in the flames. We're reacting, not thinking. How do we stop it? Control the passion a bit? Try to argue the other side? I'd hate to see an end to the discussion, but at some point, we must get ourselves under control.

Truth is, a lot of highly valued posters on this board are making comments, prolonging arguments that are far below their usual standards. It goes both ways. We're all at fault. It's a shame, really.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2005, 10:37 PM
I imagine some of you are wondering why I haven't been involved in this thread, and the truth of the matter is that, save for the months surrounding the election, I don't pay much attention to the non-baseball forum because it's dominated by political threads and that's not something I come here for. That doesn't necessarily mean I have a problem with them being there - just that I have no interest in participating in these discussions, at least on this site. However after taking a look, if I had known things were as bad as they appear to be, this situation would have been resolved in some manner or another a long time ago.

Anyway, as you can likely tell, we are considering doing away with political/religious threads as one possible option. I agree with those who have said that the bickering has led to hard feelings that have carried over to the baseball side of things and that creates a problem, since that is what this site is founded on. I can't say with certainty that we will do away with these threads, but in light of these problems, I will guarantee you that there will be a minimum of some drastic changes to this side of the board.

And thanks to those of you who have been supportive the moderators and they work they do for the site - it's a much harder chore than many realize. Don't ever think of them as babysitters because that's not what they're here to do.


Look, I support whatever you guys need to keep this place humming. If eliminating/modifying is what it takes, so be it. If it helps, I'll just voluntarily not post on this side.

Phoenix
01-18-2005, 11:38 PM
Please don't take away the political threads. In may surprise many of you, but debates here are much more tame than anywhere else I've seen. I've been insulted and disagreed with by the leftists...but it's OK...its just good political discourse.

My complaint would be that a sensitive moderator is looking to destroy this good, at times heated, good-natured political discourse.

Ravenlord
01-19-2005, 02:37 AM
We used to have a variety of views on this board, but now we have only two. Liberal or conservative, and "everyone" must fall into either camp. It's kind of scary, really. There's very little discussion in these threads these days. There used to be, but not anymore. (It's not just here. It's everywhere.)that's how i feel too.

I'm feeling quite invisible
I feel just like thin air
The truth taunts me
That nobody wants me

[Solo - Mustaine]

I see the earth below me
I watch it spinning there
Does someone, somewhere
Out there hear me?

[Solo - Pitrelli]

Sentenced to walk in Purgatory
My life is running down
I can't believe what they've done to me

[Solo - Mustaine]

I'm left riding a Warhorse
A man without a country

Dom Heffner
01-19-2005, 02:47 AM
This entire thread is surreal.

RFS62
01-19-2005, 07:28 AM
I keep hearing that nobody is really changed over political discussions here.

I have to disagree with that a bit.

I've definitely modified my perspective after reading things here.

I guess everyone has their hot buttons. When there are lives involved, such as the Iraq threads, I can't blame anyone for having passionate opinions, on either side of the aisle.

It looks to me like the participants will have to start immediately policing themselves, or I doubt the political - religious discussions will be allowed to continue. It may already be too late.

Would the posters who insist on personal attacks in these threads continue to do so if they knew with absolute certainty that they were going to cause those threads to be stopped forever?

I think that needs to be the mindset here. Your free speech rights really don't apply here. It's private property, and the owners have bent over backwards to ask nicely and with a minimum of interference to stop the childish fighting.

It reminds me of the scene in Raising Arizona where the bosses kids are trashing the trailer, writing on the walls and running wildly back and forth through the house. Bad guests.

We're guests here. The owner of the place has asked nicely to behave. Not to shut up, but behave, stop with the personal attacks.

I'll miss the political discussions if they're gone, but I sure understand why if the guys on both sides don't start acting like adults.

zombie-a-go-go
01-19-2005, 08:17 AM
Please don't take away the political threads. In may surprise many of you, but debates here are much more tame than anywhere else I've seen. I've been insulted and disagreed with by the leftists...but it's OK...its just good political discourse.

My complaint would be that a sensitive moderator is looking to destroy this good, at times heated, good-natured political discourse.

It's not okay. Just because you're not personally upset by what a post says doesn't mean someone else isn't. What some of you might not be considering is that when you attack a particular person, you're just attacking that person, and some people might not care. But when someone attacks "righties" in a thread that you're taking part in Phoenix, and it's directed toward you, you might not care, but someone else - who isn't even posting on the thread, just reading it - they take offense. And then they send a PM. And that's where it all begins.

Everyone needs to consider before they hit that Post Reply button if someone could get pissed off/upset by what you're saying. If so, don't post it.

Those of you who think nothing of being rude and cruel toward those who don't agree with you are the ones who are getting the threads closed. If you think that it's going to be allowed to continue because it's "good, heated political discourse" then you, quite frankly, are wrong.

letsgojunior
01-19-2005, 08:19 AM
My complaint would be that people are blaming the moderators of this great site, rather than taking a good hard look in the mirror.

GAC
01-19-2005, 09:22 AM
Upon further thinking on this, and also knowing that the mods are catching alot of crap and having to deal with endless PM's about people complaining.....

Set stricter guidelines on this side of the forum. Make it a "sticky" or somehow put it where all who come here can see, read, and understand the rules.

I have no problem with the mods setting stricter guidelines for this side of the forum due to the "sensitivity" of the topics (politics/religion), and diversity of the people who frequent here.

I don't care what ideological/political side you are on...if you start a thread that is intended to do nothing more than antagonize and take jabs at your so-called "opponents"...in other words, to try and taunt and incite a bitter argument... then the mods, at their own descretion, should immediately shut it down! No argument here. They then should publically for all to see (that's right, for ALL to see) warn that individual on that very same thread, and emphasize the rule they violated, and that it will not be tolerated. The second offense receives a week ban..... and the third strike..... YOU'RE OUT!

Tighten up the guidelines, I have no problem with that at all.

And I know you mods are getting an extreme amount of PMs over people whining and complaining. My sympathies to you all (and you're not even gretting paid to put up with this crap). Personally, and to my best recollection, I have never PM'd any of you to complain/whine about anyone on here. I guess that is the adult in me. And why should you guys have to be "babysitting", and listening to people whine about this thread or that thread?

I'd almost tell those that excessively use and abuse the PM process that unless they really have a valid and legitimate complaint, to politely "COOL IT", or else they're gonna go through the warning process. You guys got lives...you don't need this crap. Because lets be honest (and maybe I don't know)...don't the people whining to you in PMs cause you more headaches then the people arguing on political threads? Threads they may not even participate in, but just don't like to see them? ;)

RANDY IN INDY
01-19-2005, 10:16 AM
If someone isn't posting on a thread, and doesn't like the tone of the thread, why can't they just get out of the thread? There has to be self control, both from the folks that are posting, and from the folks who have the option of reading what someone is saying, or staying away from the thread if it isn't to their liking.

First, let me say that I think this is the best moderated site around. The guys that spend their time doing this are to be commended and I thank each and every one of you for making this site great. Tough job, but the pay is great, I understand. ;) I agree that the personal attacks are unnecessary and should be dealt with quickly, stearnly and for all to see. It makes a strong statement to everyone, and no one, regardless of some sort of status, or length of time here should be exempt.

With that said, people are going to have strong opinions about issues, be it politics, religion, the front office, SABR/traditional, their favorite players or whatever. It can apply to most anything that's being discussed, but varying opinions are what make discussions interesting. I don't think anyone here wants a board that has no flavor, or is simply "vanilla." The debate and discussion is what makes the site what it is. Just like the workplace, family life, church, or any other organization, people are not always going to agree and get along all the time. Personally, I don't think that removing the political or religeous threads will cause that to change. Folks will just find some other issue to be disagreeable about.

If people can't control themselves, they should be dealt with fairly under the rules set forth. If they can't control themselves, they should be finding themselves a new community to post in. Can't play by the rules, can't play at Redszone.

And again, to the mods, I think you do a wonderful job. My only complaint, and it's not really a complaint, is that I think that you guys are sometimes too accomodating and nice. You have the hammer. Drop it when it's needed.

Steve4192
01-19-2005, 10:37 AM
I'd hate to see political threads banned.

Even though I disagree with 99% of Redsfaithful's opinions, I enjoy reading the articles he posts because they offer a different perspective than you can find in the MSM. I don't buy into most of it, but it's always nice to know what the other side is thinking.

I think the biggest problem in many instances is how some of the material is presented. For instance:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31176
The thread title 'John Kerry and his dead horse' is going to immediately get the democrats riled up. The subsequent anti-Kerry comments of the original poster exacerbated the situation. Simply using the article title and offering no immediate comment would have led to a lot more civil conversation.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31119
This thread took a step in the right direction, as it didn't have an inflammatory title. However, the original poster immediately fanned the flames with his sarcastic "Nah, this isn't anything like Vietnam" comment before he posted the link. That immediately got the republicans fired up and they shot out of the gate with guns blazing.

Those threads could have been constructive discussions, but in both cases the thread was doomed to failure by how the thread starter presented the information.

What I will miss if politics is banned is threads like these:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31093
Enlarge Congress?

Danny Serafini
01-19-2005, 10:45 AM
If someone isn't posting on a thread, and doesn't like the tone of the thread, why can't they just get out of the thread? There has to be self control, both from the folks that are posting, and from the folks who have the option of reading what someone is saying, or staying away from the thread if it isn't to their liking.

That's a good point. The problem though is that politics gets injected everywhere, not just on the political threads. It gets dragged in to non-political threads where people will start stuff. The infamous tsunami thread is an extreme example. The animosity built up towards other posters can and does get carried over to the baseball side at times. People will put some sort of political comment in their signature, and then every thread they post in has some political comment. The problem isn't just limited to the politics-specific threads.

I honestly don't see a solution other than to shut down the politcal talk, at least for a time. I know some of you really enjoy political talk, but it appears there are some who just can't play nice, no matter how many chances you give them.

Spring~Fields
01-19-2005, 10:47 AM
First, let me say that I think this is the best moderated site around. The guys that spend their time doing this are to be commended and I thank each and every one of you for making this site great. Tough job, but the pay is great, I understand. ;) I agree that the personal attacks are unnecessary and should be dealt with quickly, stearnly and for all to see. It makes a strong statement to everyone, and no one, regardless of some sort of status, or length of time here should be exempt.



If I know that you have certain values and beliefs regarding politics and religion and habitually go out and do research on the web to find someone’s written works that are substantially in contrast to your “certain values and beliefs”, could you not infer that to be a personal attack when over and over habitually, I present like or similar material to incite you to respond, could you not conclude that I am purposely dogging you with such nonsense? Just how many times do I have to copy and paste works with slightly different variables, but yet the same basic theme and message before the subject has been discussed and it becomes more like baiting and flaming? Especially if when I start the threads I basically add very little edifying dialogue in exchange with you but to make short little snide back door remarks in response to you? Are we suggesting that, that is not inflammatory with provocative intent, thus what the Internet chat boards call flaming?

GAC, your description of the PM Cranker’s sounds like they are just some interlopers that have too much time on their hands and nothing to add.

There are some very literate and intelligent writers and thinkers that do bring a lot to the political threads like M2, Storm, MWM, GAC, Domm, Phoenix, RF62, Chip, Steel, JohnnyFootstool and a few others that I know I have left out when they have the time to address certain subjects of their choosing. I would hate to see them not be able to write and express themselves because they are very interesting reading, but if it is RedsFaithful and some of the tripe I personally write on the threads then I think they should be done away with because they are wasting server space and possibly offending readers who do not post but do support the forum.

I don’t see why the Mod’s respectfully cannot simply ask about three of us to simply refrain from posting on political or religious threads in the future, for example RBA, Redsfaithful and myself, I believe that would allow for a more academic and intellectual exchange. If it helps the board, readers, and the mods, I will be more than happy to comply for the peaceful enjoyment of each.

westofyou
01-19-2005, 10:57 AM
Everyone should be able to post, or not.

No lists of those not allowed.

No freaking lists...... equality in posting rights for all members.

Johnny Footstool
01-19-2005, 11:00 AM
I honestly don't see a solution other than to shut down the politcal talk, at least for a time.

It's very ironic that this thread *has* turned political. It's become a debate on censorship. It seems like there is one group who wants individuals to be responsible for their own actions and be punished as individuals when they break the rules (the "if you don't like it, change the channel" crowd). Another group seems to want to punish everyone for the actions of a few (the "take the show off the air" crowd).

RedsBaron
01-19-2005, 11:31 AM
I'd guess that a "ban" on political threads would be a nightmare to enforce, as politics would probably then be inserted into non-political threads. For example, the current thread on the five greatest Americans certainly could easily turn political-all we need is one poster to assert that someone named as "great" was a bad person because of his or her political beliefs and away we would go.
I think the mods do a great job and I don't blame them for being frustrated. I do hope political and religious threads are not banned.

Doc. Scott
01-19-2005, 11:48 AM
For example, the current thread on the five greatest Americans certainly could easily turn political-all we need is one poster to assert that someone named as "great" was a bad person because of his or her political beliefs and away we would go.

Oops.

But Henry Ford really was the Dr. Evil of his time. :)

Falls City Beer
01-19-2005, 12:00 PM
I don't know--maybe each violation should come with a punishment that that person who is banned should have to write a stickied "apology" with a reasoned explanation why he or she should be allowed back.

I'll get busy on that right now. ;)

Puffy
01-19-2005, 12:08 PM
OK, my first story didn't help ease the pain, so let me try again.

In 1875 in Upstate New York there were two clans of people. The Hatcoy clan was vibrant, loud and loved to have a good time. They were a gregarious people who loved their alcohol, their women, and a good cockfight on the weekends. The other clan, the McFields, were somber, moody, serious people. They treated their women with respect, made their kids eat their vegatables and worked like dogs as farmers.

The two clans hated each other. The Hatcoys felt the McFields were snotty people, who were always looking down their collective noses at the cockfight watching, alcohol drinking, creative people that the Hatcoys were. The McFields felt the Hatcoys were overbearing, drunk iconoclasts who were myopic in thier world view.

Gun fights broke out almost daily between the rival clans, even over such trival things as passing gas in front of a woman (The hatcoys were cool with this practice, while the McFields would walk out of a woman's presence and fart whilst alone).

Then one day the dutch moved in and finally the Hatcoys and the McFields could agree on something. Everybody could hate the Dutch.

The moral is all we need to sooth over the feelings of the conservatives and the liberals is some dutch people to post on this board. Cause everybody hates the Dutch!!!

REDREAD
01-19-2005, 12:10 PM
Look at this thread. Some people have said "moderate more" while others have said "there's too much moderation."

What can we agree on, here?

I think you guys need to use moderation when you are moderating.

:lol: Just kidding, you are doing an awesome job, and the moderators are the main reason this site has been so successful.

Rojo
01-19-2005, 01:12 PM
but someone else - who isn't even posting on the thread, just reading it - they take offense. And then they send a PM. And that's where it all begins.

Man that is lame. I'm sorry but I don't think the rest of us should have the punchbowl taken away because of folks so thin-skinned they run straight to the moderators whenever they read something they don't like. As my mom used to say, "fight your own battles".

Again, my .02$.

Red Thunder
01-19-2005, 01:25 PM
Why not just make a poll and decide in a few days if the majority wants to keep political and religious threads alive on the side or not? Wouldn't this be a democratic solution?

Personally, I don't see much of a difference in some of the "fights" here compared to the ones which take place on the baseball-side (SABR - anti-SABR, Pro-Bowden-Anti Bowden, the same with Bob Boone etc.).

It would be a big loss if people would not be able to discuss political or religious matter here anymore. I think people who like stirring up the pot on some occasions don't do themselves a favour anyway - I just tend to lose respect for them and skip over their posts. Also, everybody here has the option to put someone on his "ignore-list" or just stay out of this kind of discussions. And most of them are in my opinion not as bad as some here make them to be.

WVRed
01-19-2005, 01:28 PM
An idea-

An off-site message board to discuss politics and religion. It wouldnt be affiliated with Redszone in any way, and would be a compromise.

savafan
01-19-2005, 01:33 PM
An idea-

An off-site message board to discuss politics and religion. It wouldnt be affiliated with Redszone in any way, and would be a compromise.

You'd just run into the same problems with the same admins and mods having to keep track of two domains.

WVRed
01-19-2005, 01:46 PM
You'd just run into the same problems with the same admins and mods having to keep track of two domains.

Not at all, the mods would be free of the other board. Basically, in the scenario, I would start a new board for politics only on EZBoard or wherever, and would moderate it. It would have nothing to do with Redszone.

GAC
01-19-2005, 05:57 PM
Maybe this thread does serve a valuable purpose after all. We all now know that our mods have been getting overwhelmed with PMs complaining about our partisan and divisive arguments on here, and that it's gotten to the point that something is gonna have to be done.

And since we are all adults on here (assumption on my part ;) ), we need to take note and do something aout it so the mods don't have to.

I take this whole thread/discussion as a warning, and if we don't heed it then the mods will have to act.

But regardless what the mods do, they are in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't situation". If they act then some will complain and not be happy....and if they don't act it will be the same results.

I personally think it's up to each of us to decide. ;)

paintmered
01-19-2005, 06:58 PM
I think the problem with the political threads is not so much the content, but the person who posts them. I think people look first at the author and make up their mind before they even begin to read the post. If I see somebody like rf or gac post something, I pretty much know which side they are going to take and find myself agreeing or disagreeing from the start. I can count way too many times in the past where somebody posts a reply erroneously only because they didn't read all of the original post or article.

If you couldn't see who was making each post, we'd have a whole different ballgame. Because then we'd have to attack the ideas and not the person.

Nevertheless, anyone who has ever posted in one of those threads needs to look in the mirror and reconsider their future approach.

My $.02. Back to "the thread" where I belong.

Falls City Beer
01-19-2005, 08:38 PM
Maybe this thread does serve a valuable purpose after all. We all now know that our mods have been getting overwhelmed with PMs complaining about our partisan and divisive arguments on here, and that it's gotten to the point that something is gonna have to be done.

And since we are all adults on here (assumption on my part ;) ), we need to take note and do something aout it so the mods don't have to.

I take this whole thread/discussion as a warning, and if we don't heed it then the mods will have to act.

But regardless what the mods do, they are in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't situation". If they act then some will complain and not be happy....and if they don't act it will be the same results.

I personally think it's up to each of us to decide. ;)


I agree. I actually think this is a really helpful thread.

And it could have gone wrong. Really wrong.

RFS62
01-19-2005, 08:45 PM
The thing that stands out so clearly to me is the awesome amount of talent on both sides of the aisle here at RedsZone.

It's simply being channeled the wrong way. I have so much respect for a lot of posters on both sides of the divide. The problems are happening in spite of that talent, not because of it.

Find a way to keep tapping this resource.

RedsBaron
01-20-2005, 03:22 PM
The thing that stands out so clearly to me is the awesome amount of talent on both sides of the aisle here at RedsZone.

It's simply being channeled the wrong way. I have so much respect for a lot of posters on both sides of the divide. The problems are happening in spite of that talent, not because of it.

Find a way to keep tapping this resource.
RFS62, I'm really trying. We have a relatively new poster here whose posts generally consist of calling others "morons," of being "stupid", etc., all the while making numerous grammatical errors. I don't want to burden the mods with the poster and I'm trying not to directly respond to the poster. Maybe that is the only to deal with the situation.