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View Full Version : Reitsma Traded to the Braves.



Catch22
03-26-2004, 10:46 AM
Don't know any details. Don't know who he was traded for or with. Just know that it went down this morning.

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 10:48 AM
McKay McBride, McKay McBride....PLEASE!!!

WOW, that's some crazy stuff. We've been calling for a trade of Reitsma since he had a lot of value and was in a position of excess for us...now let's see how well O'Brien did on the return.
I'd like it to be a high ceiling SP prospect along with Wilson Betemit, but I'm not holding my breath.

Forgot to add that I will miss Chris Reitsma. He was a class act and I'll miss his devestating change up. Hopefully he shared his knowledge of the pitch with several of our young pitchers while he was here. Best of luck in the future, Chris.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 10:49 AM
Braves need a SU man and a "just in case" for Smoltz's iffy wing.

Juan Cruz straight up please.

EmtyRedsFan
03-26-2004, 10:54 AM
I wish we would get Cruz... but I seriously doubt that will happen

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 10:56 AM
I would be happy with a Juan Cruz straight up deal, or a McKay McBride, Jose Capellan + a talented postion player like Andy Marte.

savafan
03-26-2004, 11:00 AM
Jung Kung Bong? And Ryan Nelson?

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by savafan
Jung Kung Bong? And Ryan Nelson?

Is that a guess or are you hearing something?

EmtyRedsFan
03-26-2004, 11:02 AM
Kent Merker welcome back! :lol:

savafan
03-26-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Red Leader
Is that a guess or are you hearing something?

Heard it on 700 WLW

princeton
03-26-2004, 11:04 AM
nice knowing you, Catch22. don't forget to come around to the other side of the tracks every now and then

LvJ
03-26-2004, 11:05 AM
OMG!

I hope we don't get screwed on this deal. Reitsma is a golden boy.

919191
03-26-2004, 11:06 AM
One way to tell if this is true (and I do believe you, Catch22) is the board will always go down in the event of a trade!

westofyou
03-26-2004, 11:06 AM
don't forget to come around to the other side of the tracks every now and then

Yeah, we'll be the guys sitting in front of the shack playing with our feet.

danforsman
03-26-2004, 11:07 AM
I don't see a Ryan Nelson listed on BP.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 11:07 AM
I hope we don't get screwed on this deal.

Odds are that 1/2 will say we did, the other half will say we didn't.

Get ready for an epic mental Badminton match.

Aronchis
03-26-2004, 11:08 AM
Reitsma had some value compared to most of the :thumbdn: the Reds have. Now, did Dan retrench with a good prospect or just a sideways move. The Reds have plenty of RH relief pitching, but you don't want to blow value for crap.

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by danforsman
I don't see a Ryan Nelson listed on BP.


Try "Bubba Nelson", at least I hope its him instead of Joe Nelson ( a relief pitcher)

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 11:12 AM
I bet its Bubba Nelson, here's his Rotoworld.com writeup from last year:

Nelson was 8-10 with a 3.18 ERA, 106 H and 77/45 K/BB in 119 IP for Greenville. The 2000 second-round pick gets a lot of grounders with his low-90s sinking fastball and projects as a third or fourth starter in the majors

Matt700wlw
03-26-2004, 11:13 AM
Just released:

Chris Reitsma just got traded to the Braves for June Kewn Bong (sp) and Bubba Nelson

More details to follow

:angry:

I don't like this...all that hassle with fighting his arbitration case and then they get rid of him for, really, no good reason....I thought he was a good member of the staff

Johnny Footstool
03-26-2004, 11:13 AM
77/45 K/BB in 119 IP

Not very good.

savafan
03-26-2004, 11:13 AM
Yeah, McConnell said Ryan Nelson, the news came on and said Bubba Nelson.

Roy Tucker
03-26-2004, 11:14 AM
Jung Kung Bong and Bubba Nelson is who they said on WLW.

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 11:14 AM
Jung Bong makes sense in that the Reds and O'Brien were not happy with the left handed relievers in spring training. Bong gives us that lefty specialist in the pen this year and than can be moved to the rotation next year when Haynes, Wilson, and Lidle are most likely gone. That gives us two lefties for the rotation next year in Claussen and Bong. I like the way its shaping up.

savafan
03-26-2004, 11:15 AM
Projects as a third or fourth starter eh? How many of those guys do the Reds already have?


OTOH, if the Braves add both Reitsma and Cruz to their starting rotation, they could surprise this year. I was real worried about them when I heard that Jaret Wright had made their rotation.

LvJ
03-26-2004, 11:15 AM
If those are the two players...I like it!

princeton
03-26-2004, 11:16 AM
O'Brien shows first sign of a philosophy: nondominant arb-eligibles will be discarded quickly if they have trade value. It's a plan that I've been advocating for years

the flip side is that I think that Reitsma has the talent to show dominance, and the Reds have no potential dominators other than Wagner

wally post
03-26-2004, 11:16 AM
The Reds obtained left-hander Jung Keun Bong and right-hander Bubba Nelson.
According to A.P.

Looking forward to your comments on these guys - I know nothing about them!
-thanks

LvJ
03-26-2004, 11:17 AM
Bongs minor league numbers: 3.33 ERA, 550 K/610 IP, 210 BB.

Aronchis
03-26-2004, 11:18 AM
The Bong jokes will be endless now on I suppose :p:

Matt700wlw
03-26-2004, 11:19 AM
SARASOTA, Fla. (AP) _ Right-hander Chris Reitsma was traded to
the Atlanta Braves on Friday for two pitching prospects after never
finding a niche with the Cincinnati Reds.
Reitsma was voted the club's outstanding pitcher last season
when he filled just about every role on the staff. He went 9-5 with
a 4.29 ERA and 12 saves in three starts and 54 relief appearances.
The Reds obtained left-hander Jung Keun Bong and right-hander
Bubba Nelson. Both are younger than Reitsma and are considered
starters primarily.
Bong, 23, appeared in 45 games for the Braves over the last two
seasons, including one start. Nelson, 22, reached Triple-A for the
first time last season.
Since Dan O'Brien took over as general manager last November, he
has emphasized developing young starting pitching, one of the
organization's main weaknesses under GM Jim Bowden.
Reitsma, 26, was considered a promising prospect when the Reds
promoted him to the majors in 2001, but soon fell out of favor. He
went 7-15 with a 5.29 ERA in 29 starts, the most by any NL rookie
that year.
He bounced between Triple-A and the majors each of the next two
seasons, and the Reds started trying him in relief. He became the
closer after Scott Williamson was traded to Boston last July.
With Danny Graves moved back into the closer's role this year,
Reitsma's role was getting redefined again. The Reds also brought
in Todd Jones to compete for a setup job on Thursday, further
limiting his value.
Overall, Reitsma was 22-32 with a 4.52 ERA in 53 starts and 73
relief appearances with Cincinnati

Johnny Footstool
03-26-2004, 11:22 AM
550 K, 210 BB, 610 IP

Now those are some decent ratios.

Roy Tucker
03-26-2004, 11:22 AM
ESPN says about Bong. Sounds like Reitsma.

2003 Season
Primarily a starter during his five seasons in the minors, Jung Bong worked in relief throughout his rookie season. He was effective early in the year but then struggled, posting a 9.18 ERA after July 1. Pitching, Defense & HittingA native of South Korea, Bong throws one of the best changeups in the National League. His fastball sits at 91-92 MPH and touches 94 MPH on occasion, but he does not always have command of the pitch. Though he has shown solid improvement with his curveball over the past three seasons, he lacks the confidence to throw it often enough to keep hitters off-balance. The Braves have worked with Bong on becoming more aggressive on the mound. An excellent athlete who was considered a premier hitting prospect prior to signing, Bong fields his position very well and holds runners effectively.


2004 Outlook
While he is expected to remain in the Atlanta bullpen this year, Bong could be considered for a job in the rotation when he starts using all three of his pitches more consistently. He also could get more seasoning in Triple-A.

LvJ
03-26-2004, 11:26 AM
Even more of a reasoning why I love this trade.

Bong is younger than Reitsma, and could probally put up the same numbers Reitsma will. Plus, Bong is a lefty and more of a starter than Reitsma (has more than 2 pitches). Then, Bubba Nelson, who I love in OOTP (:p) has the talent to be a very solid SP soon. I think DanO did a good job on this.

Reitsma was another typical "fan favorite" youngster, so it's gonna upset some people, but if you look at facts. We got return value, plus more in this trade.. IMO.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 11:29 AM
So.... is this the Reds first Asian Player?

If so let him know about China Gourmet in Hyde Park... and that Thai place next to the Irish bar.

And don't let him eat Chinese in Milford....... he'll demand a trade for sure.

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 11:30 AM
Bong 1- 0 2.89 .286 BAA 5G 9.1 IP 10 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 2 BB, 4 K

Nelson 1- 1 5.40 .292 BAA 5 G 6.2 IP 7 H 5 R 4 ER 6 BB 1 K

It looks like Nelson has some control issues.

919191
03-26-2004, 11:31 AM
I think back in the late 1970's or early 1980's the Reds signed 2 Japanese players that didn't make it to the major leagues. I don't know how far they got, but I do remember it being news that Japanese players were signed.

TRF
03-26-2004, 11:32 AM
Bruce Chen was asian, and i believe Danny Graves is half Vietnamese. i think.

New Fever
03-26-2004, 11:33 AM
On Baseball America this was said about Nelson


Jason from Charlotte asks:
What is the Braves feeling on Bubba Nelson? He seems like a perfect candidate to fill the Braves #5 spot in the rotation. I realize that the Braves like to start their young pitchers in the pen to give them some experience, but he fairer pretty well in Double A this season.

A: Bill Ballew: Nelson is a stud. I think he has a much better shot at the fifth starter's role for 2004 than Wainwright. The Braves sent him to Richmond at the end of the 2003 season as a reliever in order to prepare him for a possible callup to Atlanta. He'll be back in the starting rotation in 2004, either in Richmond or, possibly, Atlanta.

princeton
03-26-2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by LvJ
Even more of a reasoning why I love this trade.

Bong is younger than Reitsma, and could probally put up the same numbers Reitsma will. Plus, Bong is a lefty and more of a starter than Reitsma (has more than 2 pitches). Then, Bubba Nelson, who I love in OOTP (:p) has the talent to be a very solid SP soon. I think DanO did a good job on this.

Reitsma was another typical "fan favorite" youngster, so it's gonna upset some people, but if you look at facts. We got return value, plus more in this trade.. IMO.

we're up an arm. One will wash out, so we'll probably be even. But we save money in preparation for the two year plan. In two years, Reitsma was too expensive

JimBo, OTOH, would have kept Reitsma until he was too expensive, then flipped him for a high level OFer that we didn't need and an 18YO pitcher about to hit the operating table.

Here, painful as it is for me to see, we get what we need.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 11:35 AM
Chen was born in Panama.

LvJ
03-26-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by New Fever
On Baseball America this was said about Nelson


Jason from Charlotte asks:
What is the Braves feeling on Bubba Nelson? He seems like a perfect candidate to fill the Braves #5 spot in the rotation. I realize that the Braves like to start their young pitchers in the pen to give them some experience, but he fairer pretty well in Double A this season.

A: Bill Ballew: Nelson is a stud. I think he has a much better shot at the fifth starter's role for 2004 than Wainwright. The Braves sent him to Richmond at the end of the 2003 season as a reliever in order to prepare him for a possible callup to Atlanta. He'll be back in the starting rotation in 2004, either in Richmond or, possibly, Atlanta. That's exciting.

Though, it does look like he has some control issues he needs to work on.

zombie-a-go-go
03-26-2004, 11:36 AM
Bong sounds good, although I'm always leery of any pitching that ATL is willing to give up. Anyway, good to hear that Bong projects to be a potential rotation guy. What's the word on his skill with the stick (ESPN says he was considered a premier hitting prospect as well :confused: )?

Aronchis
03-26-2004, 11:36 AM
Bong is the key to the deal, I have no key what Ballew is talking about Neilson looks very Mosley like.

KittyDuran
03-26-2004, 11:37 AM
So.... is this the Reds first Asian Player? Wasn't Mike Lum the first one?

Matt700wlw
03-26-2004, 11:38 AM
They're probably cheaper too...we all know how important that is

I guess we'll see how good the trade is as time goes on....

westofyou
03-26-2004, 11:40 AM
Lum was from Hawaii

missionhockey21
03-26-2004, 11:41 AM
Reitsma and his tendency to give up the long-ball won't be missed by me. Bong is promising and Nelson isnt too bad of a prospect. Reitsma was overvalued by a lot of teams and I think Dan O got a good return for him.

Chip R
03-26-2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Aronchis
The Bong jokes will be endless now on I suppose :p: What was DanO smoking when he acquired Bong? ;) I wanted to be the first. :p:

Ga_Red
03-26-2004, 11:41 AM
2/09/07

westofyou
03-26-2004, 11:42 AM
They're probably cheaper too...we all know how important that is

That is important, throwing money at something doesn't automatically fix a problem.

2 arms for one arm, two guys with upsides farther away from a payday, a LH with a career maybe as a starter in a ballpark that screams for LH starters.

Good Deal

butlerbulldogs
03-26-2004, 11:42 AM
I can't wait to see the "Bong" jersey, #420, that will sell like hotcakes, no big deal to trade junior now, we have another good jersey seller

Catch22
03-26-2004, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by 919191
One way to tell if this is true (and I do believe you, Catch22) is the board will always go down in the event of a trade!

HA! I wasn't sure if I believed it myself. I heard it from Chris' brother in-law - and I was half thinking that he was playing a joke on me to see how fast I would post it here. I was starting to get a little worried when I couldn't find anything about in on the web, but now that it's been announced on the radio I can breathe a sigh of relief.

Not sure what I think about the trade. I think it could be a really good move for Chris. I do know that he, and his wife have alot of really good friends in Cincinnati and will miss them very much. This is really the first time he has been traded in the majors and that one is always the hardest.

The good news for me is that I get TBS on cable up here in Canuckland and during the summers it is pretty much all Braves baseball on TV so I should have a much easier time catching his games on TV.

Of course now that he isn't with the Reds, I don't have near as much reason to come around here anymore, but I suspect that I will always have an interest in the Reds and I'll be poking in here from time to time. I think if I went cold-turkey I wouldn't know what to do with myself. Besides, Reds or not, there really is some great baseball discussion that goes on here and I enjoy that.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 11:44 AM
I can't wait to see the "Bong" jersey, #420, that will sell like hotcakes, no big deal to trade junior now, we have another good jersey seller

Stoners want the stash... not a jersey.;)

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by princeton
JimBo, OTOH, would have kept Reitsma until he was too expensive, then flipped him for a high level OFer that we didn't need and an 18YO pitcher about to hit the operating table.

Here, painful as it is for me to see, we get what we need.

I think you nailed this one, princeton. That's exactly what JimBo would have done. I like this first trade by O'Brien. It addresses our needs perfectly. IMO, Chris Reitsma was the perfect player to trade this year. He has plenty of value and is not too expensive for the value you get. He wasn't going to close because we need to have Graves there to showcase him for a possible trade, and he was blocking Wagner should we be able to trade Graves. We got a good, young lefty for the bullpen this year, and two candidates for the rotation next year. We're starting to put together SP's that I am excited about:

Acevedo, Claussen, Harang, Bong, Nelson, J. Hall, and Belisle and Moseley are all nice looking young pitchers that I pray continue to develop....

Kc61
03-26-2004, 11:46 AM
Prediction: Riedling is next.

IslandRed
03-26-2004, 11:47 AM
If this was already posted and I missed it, my apologies.

BP on Jung Bong:

Bong may need a couple of years to hit his stride, but he's young, and his progress is all the more impressive given that when he left Korea, he was an outfielder. Bong had some command problems last year, and he's still trying to perfect a curveball that the Braves believe he'll need to master before returning to the starting rotation. He doesn't profile like a typical reliever either, however, as his best pitch is the change, and Keith Foulke types are rare. The best thing for Bong, especially given his relative lack of experience, will be to get him 25 starts somewhere, be that in Atlanta or Richmond. Too bad the ERA projection doesn't read 4.20.

On Bubba Nelson:

This is what you get when you draft a lot of rural kids: Bubbas are supposed to be big, huge guys -- but this one is barely above six feet and a few pounds shy of his listed 200. Bubba was named after his dad. Nelson relies mostly on his slider, throwing it more than half the time. His translated strikeout rates have declined at each level, but that's the predictable, troubling result of relying too heavily on a breaking pitch. Nelson's delivery of his slider also places a lot of torque on his elbow, and his innings pitched total was down last year. As pitching prospects go, he's on the overrated side, though he might work out nicely as a reliever in the Scott Williamson mold.

butlerbulldogs
03-26-2004, 11:51 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by IslandRed
If this was already posted and I missed it, my apologies.

BP on Jung Bong:

Bong may need a couple of years to hit his stride, but he's young, and his progress is all the more impressive given that when he left Korea, he was an outfielder. Bong had some command problems last year, and he's still trying to perfect a curveball that the Braves believe he'll need to master before returning to the starting rotation. He doesn't profile like a typical reliever either, however, as his best pitch is the change, and Keith Foulke types are rare. The best thing for Bong, especially given his relative lack of experience, will be to get him 25 starts somewhere, be that in Atlanta or Richmond. Too bad the ERA projection doesn't read 4.20.

[B]Too bad the ERA projection doesn't read 4.20.

Haha,:MandJ:

Red Leader
03-26-2004, 11:51 AM
Left-hander Jung Bong was traded from Atlanta to Cincinnati in a three-player deal.

Bong doesn't have Bubba Nelson's upside, but he can still be helful as a bottom-of-the-rotation starter or a middle reliever. The Reds could send him down initially in order to further evaluate Phil Norton and Mike Matthews, but expect him to be a part of the team's bullpen by May or June. A chance to start games would come later.



Reds acquired RHP Bubba Nelson and LHP Jung Bong and from the Braves for RHP Chris Reitsma.

Reds GM Dave Miley's first trade looks like a very good one. The Braves have a reputation for holding on to the right pitching prospects, but both Nelson and Bong can be assets this year and in the future. Although the Braves were starting to see him as more of a reliever, Nelson should get a chance to be part of Cincinnati's rotation by midseason. His hard sinker makes him a potential No. 3 starter. Expect him to spend at least the first two months of the season at Triple-A Louisville.

Matt700wlw
03-26-2004, 11:55 AM
I just hope there was more to this than dumping his salary....after all they didn't want to pay him his arbitration salary and fought that one.

After last season's salary dump, I don't trust any move they make until I see something positive come out of it...hopefully this time something will

Chip R
03-26-2004, 11:56 AM
Reds acquired RHP Bubba Nelson and LHP Jung Bong and from the Braves for RHP Chris Reitsma.

Reds GM Dave Miley's first trade looks like a very good one. Was there a coup we didn't know about?

danforsman
03-26-2004, 11:56 AM
This looks good to me. My only fear in dealing Reitsma was the potential he was a Trevor Hoffman in the works, but Ryan Wagner's potential has mitigated my fears.

LvJ
03-26-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Chip R
Was there a coup we didn't know about? :MandJ: Typical Rotoworld.

Aronchis
03-26-2004, 12:01 PM
Supposedly, Allen said that eliminating the General Manager position was key to trimming down company payroll so they would have money to buy pitching. I guess Miley has both jobs now.

WVRed
03-26-2004, 12:01 PM
I love this trade.

4. Bubba Nelson, rhp

Age: 21. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-2. Wt.: 200.
Drafted: HS--Fort Washington, Md., 2000 (2nd round).
Signed by: J.J. Picollo.

Background: After leading the minors with a 1.66 ERA in 2002, Nelson made a seamless move to Double-A. He ranked sixth in the Southern League in ERA before dominating in 11 late-season relief appearances at Richmond. He moved to the bullpen in case the Braves needed him for the playoffs.

Strengths: Nelson has impressive life on all his pitches. His heavy heater sits in the 92-93 mph range and shows outstanding movement, not unlike Greg Maddux’ slower fastball. He also has a nasty hard slider that looks at times like a slurve.

Weaknesses: Command, particularly with his fastball, remains Nelson’s greatest need. While he keeps his pitches down, he must improve the location of all his pitches in the strike zone. Though his changeup continues to develop, it's still inconsistent.

The Future: The Braves believe Nelson is on the verge of reaching the majors. He'll return to the rotation in 2004 in Triple-A, and could see some big league action by the end of the season. Atlanta's bullpen is unsettled, so that could be where he gets his first opportunity.

The Braves have some issues with their bullpen, im guessing Reitsma will be a setupman for Smoltz. Good trade for the Reds, at least we know DanO isnt Jim Bowden.

six and change
03-26-2004, 12:01 PM
one question.....does Bong pitch better on grass or turf....he asked tongue firmly in cheek :roll:

Kc61
03-26-2004, 12:06 PM
What I like especially about this trade is that it shows that O'Brien is re-evaluating guys who were previously considered mainstays on the team. That's the only way the Reds will get better. I agree with O'Brien's judgment on Reitsma and think he got a lot of value in return.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 12:07 PM
I just hope there was more to this than dumping his salary.

They just got 2 live arms for a guy with an undefined role on a team loaded with RH relievers.

That's what it's about.

Chip R
03-26-2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by LvJ
:MandJ: Typical Rotoworld. Que? I don't read Rotoworld. :confused:

Doc. Scott
03-26-2004, 12:12 PM
Consider it an addendum to the Trade Scorecard.

The first trade of the Dan O' Brien era has been made, right as I start to run out of jokes about the guy's lack of transactional manuevers.

The Reds traded Chris Reitsma to Atlanta for left-handed reliever Jung Bong and right-handed starting prospect Bubba Nelson.

First, the links:

Reitsma:

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?1609

Bong:

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2863

Nelson:

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?3776


Reitsma, of course, is 26, in his first year of arbitration at $900k with two more to follow, and was in place to be a setup man with the Reds this year. He has the potential to start, but has not had sustained success in the role (although he's now in his fourth year, and should still have a chance to improve).

Nelson is 22 (23 in August), 6-2/200#, and was a second-round pick in 2000 out of a Maryland high school. His breakout year was 2002, where he posted a 1.72 ERA in the Florida State League (High-A). This led the entire minor leagues (!). He had a solid season in 2003 at AA Greenville (in the rotation with Matt Belisle), going 8-10, 3.18 in 23 games, 20 starts. He allowed only 106 hits in 119 innings, but had a mediocre BB/K ratio of 45/77. The Braves moved him to AAA Richmond at the end of the year, where he had a 1.88 ERA in 11 relief appearances. He struck out more than a batter per inning in the low minors, but his K ratio has dropped as he climbs the ladder. Baseball America said he was a "stud" and close to the majors. According to Baseball Prospectus, he throws sliders half the time, which strains his elbow. They think he's a short reliever in the Scott Williamson mold, given his accompanying hard sinker and low-90s fastball. Composite minor league numbers: 4 years, 34-26, 3.04 ERA, 468 IP, 399 H (7.7 H/9), 165 BB (3.2 BB/9), 404 K (7.8 K/9).

Bong is 23 (24 in July). He's a stringbean at 6-3/175#, and is of course Korean. In his first full season in 2003, he pitched out of the Braves' bullpen and went 6-2, 5.05 in 44 games. 57 IP, 56 H, 31 BB, 47 K, 8 HR. By all accounts, he's got a very good changeup, but is still working on a curveball. He was apparently an outfielder when he left Korea (1997), and has only been pitching for five or six years. He started almost exclusively in the minors, compiling a 38-33 record with a 3.33 ERA. 610 IP, 592 H (8.8 H/9), 211 BB (3.1 BB/9), and 550 K (8.1 K/9). Most of this was compiled in A-ball, as he made only three appearances in AAA and twenty-seven in AA before making the club out of spring training in 2003. BP likes him fairly well, and points out that changeup artists are rare as relief pitchers, liking him as a future 3-4-5 starter. (I guess that goes for Reitsma as well, eh?)

Bong is obviously cheaper than Reitsma, two years from arbitration eligibility, and appears to have similar stuff. He's also left-handed. And Nelson is a very solid pitching prospect who should start the year in Louisville.

On paper, I can't criticize this trade. The Reds dealt from a position of strength (right-handed relievers) and appear to have diversified their bullpen while simultaneously cutting $500k off the payroll and strengthening the pitching upside in the high minors. Reitsma is likely to put up an above-average ERA out of the bullpen for Atlanta in 2004, but he'd then make multi-millions. As long as neither Bong nor Nelson are injured or something, the Reds appear as though they've bettered their team going forward.

Did I mention all the dope jokes? There's some fan upside, too, although the chicks will miss Chris.

TRF
03-26-2004, 12:14 PM
So, Louiville's rotation seems to be assuming Bong doesn't make the club (Hello Mr. Jones, welcome to Cincinnati.)

Claussen
Moseley
Belisle
Bong
Nelson

that's three ex-braves in the AAA roatation, and all members of the rotation are 25 and younger. That's quite a difference from two years ago.

With Wilson and Haynes in the last year of their contract, Next years roatation looks to be young, fraught with competition and full of upside.

paulrichjr
03-26-2004, 12:15 PM
Am I on the right board? The Cin-cinn-ati Reds did something that we all like? This cannot be. This scares me to death. I'm thinking that Reitsma will be the next Randy Johnson since we all like this trade....


Seriously though. Great trade in my mind. :thumbup:
The Braves are trying to win this year and we are trying to win in 2 years. That is what this is all about and I don't have a problem with it...unless we trade Dunn and Kearns for a bucket of money.

IslandRed
03-26-2004, 12:16 PM
OK, let's combine these evaluations on Nelson and see where it leads us.

From BA (I think):

Nelson has impressive life on all his pitches. His heavy heater sits in the 92-93 mph range and shows outstanding movement, not unlike Greg Maddux’ slower fastball. He also has a nasty hard slider that looks at times like a slurve... Command, particularly with his fastball, remains Nelson’s greatest need. While he keeps his pitches down, he must improve the location of all his pitches in the strike zone. Though his changeup continues to develop, it's still inconsistent.

From BP:

Nelson relies mostly on his slider, throwing it more than half the time. His translated strikeout rates have declined at each level, but that's the predictable, troubling result of relying too heavily on a breaking pitch.

My attempted translation: Nelson's enamored with his slider because minor-league hitters can't hit it. At the major-league level, he'll need to use his fastball more, particularly since it appears to be a good one. If he can improve his command and his changeup, he could be a pretty good starter; if he can't, he could still be useful in the bullpen.

Unassisted
03-26-2004, 12:17 PM
Bye bye :reitsma:
Hello http://www.jaf.us/bong.gif

missionhockey21
03-26-2004, 12:18 PM
:lol:

LvJ
03-26-2004, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Chip R
Que? I don't read Rotoworld. :confused: They make quite a bit of mistakes from time to time, and it's funny to read. Plus, they know no more than you or I when it comes to evaluating talent, or knowing where a player is most likely to end up at (IE: Bong in Louisville, it's just a guess .. but considering our lefty troubles, I highly doubt he'll start the year in Louy. Atleast, I hope he doesn't.)

Crash Davis
03-26-2004, 12:24 PM
O'Brien:

"The acquisition of these two young starters is consistent with our organizational plan," O'Brien said. "From the outset, we have talked about adding depth to our starting rotation, both at the Major League level and throughout the system. Potentially, we have done that."

Reds Press Release:

SARASOTA -- Cincinnati Reds general manager Dan O'Brien today announced the acquisition of LHP Jung Keun Bong (pronounced june(g) kewn bong) and RHP Bubba Nelson from the Atlanta Braves in exchange for RHP Chris Reitsma.
"The acquisition of these two young starters is consistent with our organizational plan," O'Brien said. "From the outset, we have talked about adding depth to our starting rotation, both at the Major League level and throughout the system. Potentially, we have done that."

Bong will report to the club's Major League spring training camp, while Nelson will report to the minor league camp. Bong will wear uniform number 34.

Bong, 23, made 45 appearances for Atlanta over the last 2 seasons. Since he was signed as an undrafted free agent in November 1997, the southpaw has been one of the most highly touted prospects in the Braves' organization.

This spring he made 5 relief appearances for the Braves and went 1-0 with a 2.89 ERA (9.1ip, 10h, 2bb, 4k). In his minor league career, the native of Seoul, South Korea is 38-33 with a 3.32 ERA and 3 saves in 103 starts and 19 relief appearances.

Nelson, 22, was selected by the Braves in the second round of the June 2000 first-year player draft. In just 4 professional seasons he is 34-26 with a 3.03 ERA and 3 complete games in 76 starts and 21 relief appearances. Last season Nelson ranked sixth in the Class AA Southern League with a 3.18 ERA, and in 2002 he led all minor league starting pitchers with a 1.66 ERA.

Nelson enters the 2004 season rated by Baseball America as the third-best prospect in the Braves organization and by USA Today Sports Weekly as one of the organization's top prospects. In 5 relief appearances for Atlanta this spring he went 1-1 with a 5.40 ERA (6.2ip, 7h, 6bb, 1k).

Reitsma, 26, pitched for the Reds during all or parts of the last 3 seasons and went 22-32 with a 4.52 ERA and 12 saves in 53 starts and 72 relief appearances. He originally was acquired from the Red Sox on August 31, 2000, along with LHP John Curtice, in exchange for OF Dante Bichette.

zombie-a-go-go
03-26-2004, 12:24 PM
...and there was no CASH! involved!

The regime change is here, ladies and gents. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Now let's just get rid of Haynes and Wilson.

WVRed
03-26-2004, 12:25 PM
Braves board reaction-

http://mb3.theinsiders.com/fatlantabravesfrm1.showMessage?topicID=7538.topic

REDREAD
03-26-2004, 12:29 PM
Great trade for the Braves. I think Chris will be extremely valuable to them in the pen and as
a swingman.

Might be a win for us too.. Considering that Reitsma was probably not going to be brought back
next year under any circumstances, DanO had to move him. Seems like a reasonable risk,
based on what I have read here, although naturally our side has much more risk than the Braves
side.

Of course, Chris being gone from the pen is going to make this season a lot tougher to endure.

It would really be a win if we could take Reitsma's 900k or so and dump it into the draft, but
I imagine it will be hard to get it out of Carl's pocket.


I'm happy for Chris. This will be an excellent opportunity for him.

Redsland
03-26-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Crash Davis
SARASOTA -- Cincinnati Reds general manager Dan O'Brien today announced the acquisition of LHP Jung Keun Bong (pronounced june(g) kewn bong) and…
Urgent message for Joe Nuxhall! Urgent message for one Joe Nuxhall! Please call your office…

Bigg Red Smokey
03-26-2004, 12:30 PM
This trade sucks!

Reitsma is traded so DanO can clear the way for Todd Jones?

If Reitsma is ever handed a steady bully job then he can be as good or better than Hoffman imo.

Atlanta does not give up on 3 arms in 2 days w/o knowing if they are making out on the top end! When was the last time they traded away a legit pitching prospect, and he panned out?

Matt700wlw
03-26-2004, 12:31 PM
I wonder if Bong's packed yet?

Unassisted
03-26-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by WVRed
Braves board reaction- No love there for this deal. Posters there are :angry:
:thumbup: :redcap:

Matt700wlw
03-26-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Redsland
Urgent message for Joe Nuxhall! Urgent message for one Joe Nuxhall! Please call your office…

:lol: :lol: :lol:

savafan
03-26-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by WVRed
Braves board reaction-

http://mb3.theinsiders.com/fatlantabravesfrm1.showMessage?topicID=7538.topic

It's kinda nice being on the positive side of the fence for once. :thumbup:

KittyDuran
03-26-2004, 12:35 PM
On a lighter note of interest to the Redszone Ladies... with this trade the "babe" quotient just went down on this team, sigh...:(

Doc. Scott
03-26-2004, 12:35 PM
Interesting reaction. Of course, both message boards favor prospects and "could" s over "are"s. But the Braves fans don't seem too happy, do they?

Also, think of it this way. The Braves fans are used to having good pitching and pitching prospects for most of the past 25 years, so they regard their own guys as good and other teams' guys as suspect.

We, being Reds fans, and used to having mediocre/iffy/terrible pitching and pitching prospects for most of the past 25 years, are going to view things in reverse. Our guys are suspects and other teams' guys are good.

Although comparing Reitsma to Kevin Gryboski? Harsh, indeed. Plus, it takes until the second page for someone to mention the changeup. You gotta see it, then you believe. Anyway, they are right in some ways- Chris doesn't strike very many out and he's not a consistent starter. Although he hasn't hit his age peak yet.

Sabo Fan
03-26-2004, 12:35 PM
This trade sucks!

Atlanta does not give up on 3 arms in 2 days w/o knowing if they are making out on the top end! When was the last time they traded away a legit pitching prospect, and he panned out?

Well, they dealt Jason Schmidt to the Pirates several years ago and he turned out pretty well. Odalis Perez has had a fair amount of success as well, and I still stand firm in my belief that Jason Marquis will have a Schmidt-like path to success. The Braves don't usually trade pitching, they hold on to it, but when they have traded it I say it's worked out for the other side a fair amount when you consider how big a risk young pitchers are to begin with.

LvJ
03-26-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Bigg Red Smokey
[B]This trade sucks!

Reitsma is traded so DanO can clear the way for Todd Jones? ... No. :MandJ:

Unassisted
03-26-2004, 12:39 PM
You too can soon have Bong. ;)
Boss is swapping out the Reitsma smiley for :bong:

TRF
03-26-2004, 12:40 PM
The braves also traded away Rob Bell and Bruce Chen.

They also know when to fold them.

CR's K rates are much better as a reliever, and throws MUCH harder in that role to. A well defined role for him should allow him to flourish. I think he was waaaaay overated as a starter, but he couldn't seem to get that through his head.

excellent trade for the reds, and a good aquisition for the Braves if Chris accepts his role in the pen.

princeton
03-26-2004, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by paulrichjr
Am I on the right board? The Cin-cinn-ati Reds did something that we all like? This cannot be.

no, I'd have kept CR and let him take the closer job, but the Reds were committed to Graves. They got more than I thought they'd get. I'm resigned to accept it

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 12:43 PM
Not sure yet if it's a good trade, but it isn't a bad one.

zombie-a-go-go
03-26-2004, 12:44 PM
Wow, the Braves fans are not happy.

Question: Is this a better trade than Reitsma for Cruz straight up?

Shaggy Sanchez
03-26-2004, 12:45 PM
Braves board reaction-

They aren't liking this trade at all in Atlanta.

ramp101
03-26-2004, 12:45 PM
yuck, i hate this trade for the Reds

and I hate the Braves even more now

Doc. Scott
03-26-2004, 12:46 PM
I think it is, yes. Cruz may have a great arm, but he's not a sure thing, although he probably has a higher upside than Reitsma.

TRF
03-26-2004, 12:50 PM
One relies too heavily on his change while ignoring a very good fastball 94+

The other has an electric fastball, yet is inconsistent at the ML level.

both could use some maturing pitchingwise, and both needed a change of scenery. Gully's specialty has always been added ooomph. Cruz needs added control. i don't think he was a good fit for Gullet.

REDREAD
03-26-2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Bigg Red Smokey
This trade sucks!



Well, I do agree with you that it sucks we were basically forced to trade Reitsma.
I agree that it sucks that we can only keep players 3-4 years.

But considering the circumstances, we did ok.. Now it might turn out that
we traded for 2 future dempsters again (that trade seemed like a reasonable
risk at the time).

This Bubba guy seems to be a project guy, maybe he'll make it, maybe he won't

At least we got a cheap lefty reliever for a few seasons in Bong, although I agree
he may not be as good as Reitsma. But at least we got something we can
use now. (As opposed to two A ball pitchers who are sheer long shots).

Really, I have to give DanO credit for getting more out of Reitsma than Kullman
got for Williamson. Does anyone disagree with that?

But it looks like we are also swapping Norton for Todd Jones in the pen.. not
sure that's much of an upgrade.. IMO, if Jones and possibly Van Poopel are
in your pen, you are not loaded with RH relievers. So I disagree that this
was a "Deal from surplus" trade. I think DanO knew Reitsma wouldn't fit
in the budget next year, and worked a deal for him now. That is better than
letting a team claim him off waivers for nothing in August.. And it's better
than giving him away for crap like the Williamson trade. So at least
we're moving in the right direction.

Sabo Fan
03-26-2004, 12:51 PM
The fact that there are Braves fans out there who are ticked will help me sleep a little better tonight.

There's only one or two pro sports teams I really despise. The Braves are one, the New York Giants are the other.

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 12:53 PM
SF, what about the Yankees?

nm...i'll answer my own question.

Doc. Scott
03-26-2004, 12:54 PM
Redread, I don't see why anyone would think we were "forced" to trade Reitsma (well, other than you and a few others who seem to really enjoy the ol' conspiracy theories).

Of course money enters the equation, as it should in any trade you make, but I think we got the good side of the deal from a baseball perspective, too.

traderumor
03-26-2004, 12:55 PM
You heard it here first. Not sure if my theory was right...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21439&perpage=10&pagenumber=2

pedro
03-26-2004, 12:56 PM
i like this trade. reitsma has good STUFF but i don't think he's a good PITCHER. he makes way to many mistakes that end being home runs. IMO if he were to start he'd be a lock to give up 35+ homers and as a reliever i sure don't want to see any homers either.

i've watched bong picth a few times, i think he can be really good. and he's a lefty.

keeping reitsma was a lose lose situation. he does well, he prices himself out of cincy (at least as a set up guy), he does poorly, he loses all his value. i think it was a good time for dano to cash his chips in on this one.

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 12:57 PM
Didn't AD hit a game winning HR off Bong last year?

Cedric
03-26-2004, 12:57 PM
Great trade from DanO. Nothing like getting rid of surplus players while they still have some value.
We got Bong and Nelson for a pitcher that relies way too heavily on his changeup and can't locate his fastball? GREAT GREAT trade on paper.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 12:57 PM
There's only one or two pro sports teams I really despise. The Braves are one, the New York Giants are the other.

Niners... gawd I hate the Niners and the Avalanche.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 12:59 PM
but I think we got the good side of the deal from a baseball perspective, too.

Are we still using that perspective when evaluating this team? ;)

savafan
03-26-2004, 12:59 PM
I have this gut feeling that DanO isn't done dealing before the end of the season. Something tells me that he's now had enough time to become familiar with and evaluate players and now has an idea of what he wants to do.

missionhockey21
03-26-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by savafan
I have this gut feeling that DanO isn't done dealing before the end of the season. Something tells me that he's now had enough time to become familiar with and evaluate players and now has an idea of what he wants to do.
Same here Sava.

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:00 PM
I have a gut feeling he isn't done dealing before opening day.

savafan
03-26-2004, 01:00 PM
I meant end of spring training, not the end of the season. ;)

Chip R
03-26-2004, 01:01 PM
And some people thought DanO couldn't pull the trigger on a deal. :)

LvJ
03-26-2004, 01:01 PM
Good. Maybe we can work a deal to send Haynes to Japan for some Japanese girls for Bong.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 01:02 PM
for some Japanese cheerleaders for Bong.

Because we all know how well the Japanese and Koreans get along. ;)

REDREAD
03-26-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Sabo Fan
The fact that there are Braves fans out there who are ticked will help me sleep a little better tonight.
.

I think Braves fans knash their teeth every time they trade
a pitching prospect. I remember all heck breaking lose when
they traded Rob Bell to us.

They have a different mindset than us.. they assume every prospect is the next Glavine, Smoltz, or Avery.

Bottom line is that the Braves org considered both these prospects to be future middle relievers. So it makes
sense for them to trade up for a more sure, established reliever like Reitsma.

Now I'm hoping Bubba can at least fill some space in the rotation for a few years. Don't know if it will happen though.

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:03 PM
*Korean ;)

TheBurn
03-26-2004, 01:03 PM
=========================================
BREAKING NEWS - March 26, 2004
=========================================

REDS TRADE WITH BRAVES

The Cincinnati Reds have acquired left-hander Jung
Bong and right-hander Bubba Nelson from the Atlanta
Braves in exchange for reliever Chris Reitsma.

Bong, 23, has posted a 6-3 record with a 5.29 ERA in
parts of two seasons with the Braves. Nelson, 22,
went 8-10 with a 3.18 ERA for AA Greenville before
going 0-1 with a 1.88 ERA for AAA Richmond in 2003.
He was rated as the Braves fourth-best prospect by
Baseball America.

More >> http://lists.mlb.com/u/366870/10876919

Bong's Bio >> http://lists.mlb.com/u/366872/10876919
Bong's Stats >> http://lists.mlb.com/u/366874/10876919
Nelson's Bio >> http://lists.mlb.com/u/366875/10876919

Just thought I'd add this... :smokin:

westofyou
03-26-2004, 01:03 PM
Bottom line is that the Braves org considered both these prospects to be future middle relievers.

Is this a "fact" or just what you "think?"

zombie-a-go-go
03-26-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by LvJ
Good. Maybe we can work a deal to send Haynes to Japan for some Japanese girls for Bong.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:06 PM
How bout about Haynes to Hemptations for a pipe cleaner, and a tie dye t-shirt?

gm
03-26-2004, 01:07 PM
Wuh-oh...better start making some room on the ol' bandwagon :mhcky21:

I will miss Reitsma's Bug's Bunny changeup and humble demeanor during interviews. OTOH, RH relievers are something the Reds always have in abundance or can easily acquire/develope. Kudos to DanO for sticking to "the plan" even if he has difficulty articulating it suavely when on the air ;)

Bill
03-26-2004, 01:07 PM
Good deal for both clubs yet if the GAB contend in 03 plan had gone smoothly, Reitsma was a keeper. When it painfully failed, it was time to turn the team over and acquire young inexpensive prospects with upside. This kind of deal is what I was expecting over the winter. Unfortunately, they don't have much else to deal.

Yet if Reitsma's increasing salary was the main motivation to move him, then Dunn's time may as a Red might be limited. Wonder if they have any intentions to lockup kearns and/or Dunn LT soon?

LvJ
03-26-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by westofyou
Because we all know how well the Japanese and Koreans get along. ;) Well.. see... now ...


Bong is 24. He'll take anything. ;)

creek14
03-26-2004, 01:09 PM
Time will tell if this is a good trade or not.

But it concerns me that an organization known for developing pitching gave these two guys up so easily. What do they see in Chris? Or what don't they see in Cheech and Chong, errr Bubba and Bong?

REDREAD
03-26-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Doc. Scott
Redread, I don't see why anyone would think we were "forced" to trade Reitsma (well, other than you and a few others who seem to really enjoy the ol' conspiracy theories).
.

IMO,.the writing was on the wall. Chris tried to get 1.5 million last year. Chris doesn't seem to
be the happiest guy here.

Chris doesn't appear to be a guy that will take less to stay in Cincy.

Chris was projected as the primary setup man. The risk is that he'd have
a good year, and try to get 1.5-2.5 million for 2005. He'd probably take
them to arb again. I don't think the Reds are willing to pay that much for
Reitsma. After all, they refused to pay Heredia the money he would've
been due in 2004 (Ballpark range around 1.7 million?)

I said long ago that there was no way Chris was coming back in 2005, based
on what I have said above. I can't prove it, but I assume he was marked to
be gone for next year. It just makes sense. Allen is stuck with a lot of
big contracts that can't be moved, so he's going to focus on moving salaries
he can. Chris was due a big payday next year.

And I will say right now, I doubt LaRue is coming back in 2005 either. I'm
not as sure as I was on Reitsma, but I doubt he's coming back.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 01:10 PM
But it concerns me that an organization known for developing pitching gave these two guys up so easily.

Tiny window, closing fast and no setup men for J.S.

That's how I see it.

Doc. Scott
03-26-2004, 01:13 PM
Oh, I agree that LaRue is 95% likely to be outta here after the season, if not before the end. Reitsma might have stuck around a while longer if the team liked him in a certain role.

REDREAD
03-26-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by westofyou
Is this a "fact" or just what you "think?"

They both pitched in middle relief last year, right?

Didn't one of those clippings say Bubba was moved into the
pen to prepare him for arrival in Atlanta after starting most
of his minor league career?

I would think that if their long term plan was to make Bubba a starter, he would've stayed
in the rotation in the minors

traderumor
03-26-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by westofyou
Tiny window, closing fast and no setup men for J.S.

That's how I see it. I am also usually wary of Braves pitching prospects, but I think WOY hit it on the head.

Marty points out that Casey and LaRue are upset. Do these guys have to throw little baby fits with every trade? This is not the church softball team where playing with your buddies is more important than being any good.

REDREAD
03-26-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Doc. Scott
Oh, I agree that LaRue is 95% likely to be outta here after the season, if not before the end. Reitsma might have stuck around a while longer if the team liked him in a certain role.

I think that Reitsma's attempt to hardball them in arb put him on Allen's blacklist.

If he had humbly accepted the Red's first offering, they might've assumed he'd be an easy sign for 2005 and
kept him in their plans.

And I'm guessing that joke of a demotion in the beggining of last year (to keep Jimmy Anderson and the Gonad)
created a lot of bad feelings between Chris and the Reds.
No way was he ever going to accomodate them in contract talks.

jfar23
03-26-2004, 01:18 PM
Me rikey very mucho!

Doc. Scott
03-26-2004, 01:19 PM
Oh, geez, like a player's not supposed to fight for himself in arbitration? Geez, gimme a break.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 01:21 PM
They both pitched in middle relief last year, right?

By that theory I guess Wade Miller and Roy Oswalt were earmarked to be MR when they came up.

FYI the Braves had much problems in MR last year, especially post AS game from the left side, any usage of young live ams in situational spots doesn't mean that that is their role forever.

Bong 104 ML starts out of 119 apperances.

Nelson 76 ML starts out of 106 apperances.

I'd say that they aren't earmarked for anything just yet.

PuffyPig
03-26-2004, 01:23 PM
Two starters who are ready (or virtually ready) to start in the majors for a set-up man beginning to make big money is a fabulous trade.

Nelson was rated ahead of Wainright by Baseball America.

This is a great deal.

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:23 PM
--From the Thursday, May 22, 2003 printed edition of the Augusta Chronicle

The Braves bullpen didn't fare any better. Gryboski threw a fat fastball to Kearns, who brought the crowd to its feet with a game-deciding double, then rookie left-hander Jung Bong gave up a three-run home run to pinch hitter Adam Dunn in the eighth.

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:24 PM
I remember that game. That was an awesome HR by AD. I thought it was a walk off, but I was wrong.

Him and AK came down to the restaurant after the game.

Shaggy Sanchez
03-26-2004, 01:25 PM
Marty points out that Casey and LaRue are upset. Do these guys have to throw little baby fits with every trade? This is not the church softball team where playing with your buddies is more important than being any good.

Could we go ahead and trade Casey so we don't have to listen to him cry everytime someone is traded.

creek14
03-26-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Shaggy Sanchez
Marty points out that Casey and LaRue are upset. Do these guys have to throw little baby fits with every trade? This is not the church softball team where playing with your buddies is more important than being any good.

Could we go ahead and trade Casey so we don't have to listen to him cry everytime someone is traded.
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure those players are human, with human emotions. And since we won WWII, this is still a free country and they can voice those feelings. You know, just like you did about them.

Cedric
03-26-2004, 01:33 PM
Obrien only wishes ANYONE would take Casey off our hands.

Actually it is pretty unprofessional for the same player to always ***** and moan about trades. If this certain player would produce even to half his income than maybe we wouldn't be in such a dire financial situation.

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:34 PM
I doubt they are "crying" over it.

You would be "upset" too if your friend just got traded. You move on, and I'm sure SC, and JL are doing just that.

Catch22
03-26-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Shaggy Sanchez
Marty points out that Casey and LaRue are upset. Do these guys have to throw little baby fits with every trade? This is not the church softball team where playing with your buddies is more important than being any good.

Could we go ahead and trade Casey so we don't have to listen to him cry everytime someone is traded.

Sheesh - some of you people have NO idea. Don't forget that these players are PEOPLE too. Sure baseball is a business, but cut the guys some slack for being a bit dissappointed that one of their good friends was traded away. I don't think that by 'upset' that they are meaing that Casey and Larue are griping to the front office. Can they not be 'upset' that a good friend is gone?

As much as Chris will miss Cincy, I really think that things could go well for Chris in Atlanta. At least he has more hope of making the playoffs :mhcky21:

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Cedric
Obrien only wishes ANYONE would take Casey off our hands.

Actually it is pretty unprofessional for the same player to always ***** and moan about trades. If this certain player would produce even to half his income than maybe we wouldn't be in such a dire financial situation.

They would still be in the "dire" financial situation. It would just be a heck of alot easier to swallow.

Cedric
03-26-2004, 01:41 PM
We would have alot more flexibility if we could get rid of Casey and Grif.

Nobody is complaining about the players being dissapointed they lost a friend in private. But it reeks of unproffesional behavior when people like Graves and Casey whine PUBLICLY after every single move the front office makes.

Edskin
03-26-2004, 01:42 PM
This is one Bong we DO NOT want people to hit!

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:43 PM
The Reds would have alot more flexibility if the FO would loosen up the purse strings a bit. :thumbup:

wheels
03-26-2004, 01:43 PM
Freaking 1460 here in Columbus nearly made me have a complete meltdown.

I riding around in my car all la dee da like and all of a sudden I hear "The Reds made a trade today, and you Reds fans aren't going to like it......But you're gonna havta stick around until after the break."

My reaction went a little something like this (people could see and hear me btw):

"Garghhhh!!"

"Honk!"

"Bleep bleep"

"Yarrrrrggghhhhh!!!"

See, I thought maybe they had traded Dunn. Then they gave the rundown after what seemed like eight minutes of commercials.

Not a bad deal. I'll have to echo the sentiments of others who've stated that it's better to deal from strength, and recieve multiple arms.

And REDREAD, you can't be more wrong about thier roles. They could indeed end up being middle relief journeymen, but that's not how they're regarded at this time by either organization.

Very good trade.

savafan
03-26-2004, 01:44 PM
I wonder if Jung is related to William Phillip Bong of the Super Silly Party?


Okay, I'll retreat back from my Pythonesque geekdom now.

Edskin
03-26-2004, 01:48 PM
If Jung gets into a hot tub, would he be considered a water Bong?

Sorry, that one was really lame :)

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Edskin
This is one Bong we DO NOT want people to hit!

They don't want to hit the BONG too hard, they might choke.

Edskin
03-26-2004, 01:50 PM
Let's say RFS62 and SteelSD decided to gang up on Jung and beat the heck out of him. Could we then say....

"RFS62 and SteelSD took turns alternatley hitting the Bong."

???

l3R3TT
03-26-2004, 01:51 PM
Puff Puff Pass

Edskin
03-26-2004, 01:52 PM
OK, now let's say TeamCasey and TeamBoone are sitting at GAB watching the Reds warm-up. They bust out the binoculars but can't find Jung anywhere. Could we say...

"TC and TB looked everywhere, but were unable to locate Bong."

????

Should I stop now??? :)

savafan
03-26-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Edskin
Should I stop now???


Yes ;)

knuckler
03-26-2004, 01:59 PM
I think we will need a separate thread -- and a sticky -- for the Bong jokes. It may be the only thing that gets us all through September.

Matt700wlw
03-26-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by savafan
I have this gut feeling that DanO isn't done dealing before the end of the season. Something tells me that he's now had enough time to become familiar with and evaluate players and now has an idea of what he wants to do.

Excellent! More prospects coming!!:rock_band

Well, for Haynes I'll take anything...I don't want to see him butcher more games every 5th day

Ryan the Reds Fan
03-26-2004, 02:03 PM
I tend to like it. Only time will tell, but I believe the idea behind it is for the best. A few more like this, and we are bound to come out with something good.

Matt700wlw
03-26-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by REDREAD
I think that Reitsma's attempt to hardball them in arb put him on Allen's blacklist.


I think if you make more than the league minimum, you're on Allen's blacklist

TeamCasey
03-26-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by KittyDuran
On a lighter note of interest to the Redszone Ladies... with this trade the "babe" quotient just went down on this team, sigh...:(

What the heck, we have a bong. We won't care. :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

cincinnati chili
03-26-2004, 02:07 PM
A couple things:

1. At first blush, I like the deal quite a bit. But everyone should remember that the Braves don't often trade away pitchers that pan out. Even the big exception, Jason Schmidt, took several years to blossom. For every one of him, there's several more Steve Averies, Bruce Chens, etc.

2. Several posts here have said that Baseball America ranks Nelson as the Braves' fourth best prospect. I have the 2004 Baseball America and he's ranked as their THIRD best prospect. John Sickels gives him a "B," and he doesn't quite make the Top 50 pitchers in MLB on his list of prospects.

3. I'll miss Chris and Catch 22!

Roy Tucker
03-26-2004, 02:09 PM
So DanO's stock has gone up a couple points on the RedsZone Exchange? We need a graph on the home page to show his popularity rating.

I think its a trade that will work out well for both teams. They both got what they wanted.

TeamCasey
03-26-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Edskin
OK, now let's say TeamCasey and TeamBoone are sitting at GAB watching the Reds warm-up. They bust out the binoculars but can't find Jung anywhere. Could we say...

"TC and TB looked everywhere, but were unable to locate Bong."

????

Should I stop now??? :)

:MandJ: :MandJ: :MandJ:

Neo
03-26-2004, 02:11 PM
I didn't see any posts.. Reitsma to the Braves for Bong and Nelson?!

If this is true!! Wow.. Bubba Nelson is huuuge.

Edit.. sorry.. I guess I was to excited to really look.

WVRed
03-26-2004, 02:13 PM
its true, refer to the top of the board

traderumor
03-26-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Catch22
Sheesh - some of you people have NO idea. Don't forget that these players are PEOPLE too. Sure baseball is a business, but cut the guys some slack for being a bit dissappointed that one of their good friends was traded away. I don't think that by 'upset' that they are meaing that Casey and Larue are griping to the front office. Can they not be 'upset' that a good friend is gone?

As much as Chris will miss Cincy, I really think that things could go well for Chris in Atlanta. At least he has more hope of making the playoffs :mhcky21:

That would be fine if it stopped at that, Catch, but I will be surprised if Casey does not have another anti-FO quote or two in the paper tomorrow because one of his buddies got traded. Sure, Chris is a good pitcher and I'm sure he is a really great guy, but with each trade last year Casey got more and more vocal. Plus, the whining is done publicly with the clear intent of using the media to talk to the front office. Already, he and LaRue were public enough with their emotions that Brenneman made note of it. That is the wrong way to handle showing your disapproval of management.

westofyou
03-26-2004, 02:25 PM
That is the wrong way to handle showing your disapproval of management.

Once would be ok, but it shouldn't happen on every move... nor should it always be the same spokesman.

Dan
03-26-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by KittyDuran
On a lighter note of interest to the Redszone Ladies... with this trade the "babe" quotient just went down on this team, sigh...:(

Yes, but the "babe quotient" of RedsZone remains constant as always. (whether that is a high constant or low constant is left to the reader :RedinDC: )

VI_RedsFan
03-26-2004, 02:35 PM
I like this deal. I would've liked it better if Wilson Betimit was involved, but hey, that's life. Bong definately looks like he could be a sp. Nelson looks like he could be a stud sp. I like this deal. Good job DanO!

sweaver
03-26-2004, 02:35 PM
The Reds' bloggers are unanimous in favor of the trade, FWIW. Well, actually, I haven't heard from Tony yet.

MWM
03-26-2004, 02:43 PM
I don't especially like the trade, but I don't altogether hate it. This is partly because I'm one of the few who is really high on Reitsma. I think he has potential to be a really good starter and an excellent reliever.

If Reitsma played the Octavio Dotel role this year to pitch the 7th and 8th, and did well at it, his trade value would have significatly increased by the trading deadline. Maybe the powers that be thought he wouldn't do all that well in that role, so decided to cash in before he could prove it.

KYRedsFan
03-26-2004, 02:44 PM
Good times on this trade. One good arm for two, giddy up!

GIK
03-26-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Neo
I didn't see any posts.. Reitsma to the Braves for Bong and Nelson?!

Haven't seen you around lately, Neo. Welcome back! :GAC:

traderumor
03-27-2004, 09:19 AM
The more I think about this trade, the more I like it. I was thinking after reading the reactions of the Braves fans, mostly very negative, that the Braves are having to pay dearly now with good but not quite ready prospects to fill in gaps created by having several arms not pan out as expected the last several years. If you look at their staff and Braves rejects around the league, i.e. Moss, Odalis Perez, Bell, Chen are all failures of the system that was so highly regarded simply because of the 90s success. The hole in the bullpen that they apparently paid dearly for to get Reitsma for this year is just one consequence of this. Last year they had to do similarly with the rotation in picking up Ortiz, Hampton, and Byrd. It seems like someone is trying to put their finger in the dyke to hide a severe organizational deficiency in developing quality major league arms to replace Glavine, Smoltz, and Maddux. My hope with our latest pickup of highly touted Braves arms (which already included Belisle) that they are the real deal and not fools gold like the aforementioned busts.

Bill
03-27-2004, 12:31 PM
From a baseball perspective, the Reds' players should be upset as they are losing a valuable setup man who will be replaced by a pitcher released by the Bay. Unless Bong really comes on this year in the bigs (which is possible as he has had a good spring), this deal weakens their chances to win this year.

Mind you I am not complaining as I am more concerned with the future than reaching .500 this year, but the players certainly want to win now and have every chance to do so.

Falls City Beer
03-27-2004, 01:05 PM
I actually kind of think this trade will end up being a wash: I don't see either Bong or Nelson as anything more than Bullpenners. Then again, I never saw Reitsma as anything more than that.

Got to start aiming for bonafides, DanO.

First trade grade: B-/C+

Wake me when a starter rolls in.

Spring~Fields
03-27-2004, 01:14 PM
I like the fact that this GM appears to be genuinely trying to build the pitching up for this organization and the thought that sooner or later he will hit upon something good for the team. This organization use to be lame five tooler maybes or yesterdays news, at least now it is pitching possibilities.

Redmachine2003
03-27-2004, 01:28 PM
Just because the Braves used these guys in the pen doesn't mean that they are going to be only bullpen pitchers. The Braves always develop their pitchers throught the pen before they move them to the rotation in the majors. So far I really like this trade.
The Reds now have two lefties for the rotation next year or later this year.

Cigar2
03-27-2004, 02:30 PM
After all that has been said on this about the trade.
I have to say is I kind like this trade. It gives us two pretty good young starting pitchers for a pitcher that has turned into a pretty good reliver.
And since we are talking about the Reds here that can be easily replaced by someone in this organization at the big league level.

Shaggy Sanchez
03-27-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Catch22
Sheesh - some of you people have NO idea. Don't forget that these players are PEOPLE too. Sure baseball is a business, but cut the guys some slack for being a bit dissappointed that one of their good friends was traded away. I don't think that by 'upset' that they are meaing that Casey and Larue are griping to the front office. Can they not be 'upset' that a good friend is gone?


It is one thing to be upset about your friends being traded and it is another to be unprofessional. Baseball is still a business and the last time I checked making your team better was more important than keeping players friends around, I guess Casey would rather have fun rather than win. If Casey had never said anything before I wouldn't mind so much but every trade that has been made lately makes Casey upset because he lost a friend. If he has a real problem with the moves he should go to Dan O. or Carl not the press.

Falls City Beer
03-27-2004, 02:54 PM
"I like the fact that this GM appears to be genuinely trying to build the pitching up for this organization and the thought that sooner or later he will hit upon something good for the team."

Believe me this trade suggests to me that DanO's head and heart are in the right place vis. trades. I love this trade in spirit--Bowden WOULD NEVER HAVE EVEN REMOTELY ENTERTAINED a trade like this one.

However, spirit of the trade aside, the talent swap looks about even.

Time to start WINNING some deals (cf. Claussen for Boone)

Redmachine2003
03-27-2004, 02:56 PM
Casey said that someone had to watch the four kids while the wives packed Chris's and his families stuff. So it wasn't a protest of the trade it was helping a friend out.

Aronchis
03-27-2004, 02:58 PM
With a new GM in town, I guess Sean didn't expect any of the "core" Bowden guys to be dealt off :confused:

It seems Sean doesn't want to win particuler bad in my opinion, but just have alot of fun. Sounds like my cat, who goofs off all the time, but he isn't employed at my house to win something. When Sean hits 320 with 25 homers again, you can whine Sean, but right now, your a part of the problem.

SteelSD
03-27-2004, 03:09 PM
Glad the board's back up and running smoothly.

I have zero issue with this trade. I've always held that Reitsma's perceived value in the market was greater than his actual value on a baseball diamond. I think that's been confirmed with this deal. Both of the pitchers acquired are the right age and both are more than just a blip on the radar.

I'm not a huge fan of Jung Bong, though. He might eventually make it in middle relief, but nothing in his pitching arsenal is really outstanding. Doesn't throw a nasty enough fastball to be a great situational lefty and he needs a lot of work on location. Pretty hittable throughout his minor league career, but he's a lefty so he may be a trading chip to be cashed in later.

Now Nelson may be something special. His K/IP rates have dropped as he's advanced, but I'm not horribly concerned considering that he pitched the majority of the 2003 season in AA and AAA at age 21. He'll turn 23 this August. Unlike the majority of Reds pitching prospects, Nelson has actually dominated against players his own age (2002).

I'm a bit concerned that the Braves shifted Nelson to the pen in 2003, but I'm not sure if that speaks to what his role might be at the MLB level.

I'm a little more optimistic on this move than FCB, so I'll give O'Brien a straight-up "B" on this one. Good move.

However, I do want to caution that this may hurt the Reds more in the short-term than some folks think. Yes, I consider Reitsma to be overrated. But, contrary to popular belief, our bullpen wasn't that solid WITH Reitsma. It's more of a problem without him unless a Joe Valentine suddenly discovers his command and contributes this season.

Redmachine2003
03-27-2004, 03:27 PM
How many lefties have better stuff than Bong does?

Bill
03-27-2004, 03:28 PM
Yea, the pen is definitely weaker since last June. Wagner will fill the setup role nicely but after that it is much weaker without Reitsma, Williamson, Sullivan and White and I doubt Mathews and Norton will match Heredia and Mercker's numbers.

A weakened middle relief is a major liability with the Reds starters and their typical short efforts. Here's hoping Valentine finds his control soon.

LoganBuck
03-27-2004, 04:43 PM
I hope that the Reds ship Casey next. They have slowly gotten rid of players that I loathe since July 28 last year. Boone, Reitma, Taylor, any of the hacks from the end of last year. Casey and Castro, should go next.

Ravenlord
03-28-2004, 02:07 AM
i like this trade...very much. don't know if this has been posted yet as i don't feel like going through all the previous pages...but anyway:

Bong
Level ERA IP WHIP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9
MLB 5.28 63 1.54 1.55 4.71 7.29 9.14
AAA 5.56 11.1 1.24 5.00 2.38 11.92 8.74
AA 3.24 122 1.48 2.38 3.32 7.89 10.03
A 3.48 430.2 1.31 2.50 3.11 7.77 8.65
R 1.48 48.1 0.93 4.00 2.61 10.43 5.77

Nelson
Level ERA IP WHIP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9
AAA 1.88 14.1 1.05 1.40 3.14 4.40 6.28
AA 3.17 119 1.27 1.71 3.40 5.82 8.02
A 2.88 286.2 1.20 2.56 3.17 8.13 7.60
R 4.23 44.2 1.14 4.15 2.62 10.88 7.66
i really like Nelson...oh, btw, here's Reitsma's and Bong's scouting reports placed side by side:

Reitsma
GOING INTO CAMP: Reitsma finally stuck with the Reds all year after an April 19 promotion and even saw some time as their closer over the final two months of 2003. But a healthy Danny Graves will return to that role, as Reitsma reverts to middle relief.
ASSETS: Reitsma has a powerful fastball in the low-90s and adds good control over his off-speed stuff. He's able to keep the ball in the park with his good mixture of pitches and can consistently pitch into the seventh inning.
FLAWS: An injury earlier in his career shaved a few clicks off his fastball. He needs to work on his endurance. In his two years, he's had trouble pitching under the lights.
CAREER POTENTIAL: An average middle-to-late reliever.

Bong
GOING INTO CAMP: The young southpaw made the Braves' bullpen out of spring training and stuck there most of the year. He'll likely continue to throw middle relief in 2004 but may get a look as a starter.
ASSETS: Owns an incredible change-up and solid command.
FLAWS: Seems to be easily rattled and needs to be a little more aggressive.
CAREER POTENTIAL: He'll eventually graduate to the back end of the rotation.

to me, i see Bong as a younger. less expeirenced, and left handed version of Reitsma...reading their career potentials, i equate back of the rotation starter and average reliever to about the same thing.

sorry, i can't find a report on Nelson...looking forward to him and Bong at AAA this year though.

traderumor
03-28-2004, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Falls City Beer
"I like the fact that this GM appears to be genuinely trying to build the pitching up for this organization and the thought that sooner or later he will hit upon something good for the team."

Believe me this trade suggests to me that DanO's head and heart are in the right place vis. trades. I love this trade in spirit--Bowden WOULD NEVER HAVE EVEN REMOTELY ENTERTAINED a trade like this one.

However, spirit of the trade aside, the talent swap looks about even.

Time to start WINNING some deals (cf. Claussen for Boone) O Great trade crystal ball, please tell me how these two youngsters will perform with the Reds and whether they will be starters or relievers ;) Not sure how anyone can grade trades one day after their made, and if they did, I'm sure a big league club could use such a talent.

Phhhl
03-28-2004, 03:05 AM
I have always liked Chris' changeup. I think it is one of the best in the game. But, without a third pitch, he will always have a finite cieling on what he can accomplish in this game. He will not become an effective major league starter without that, and hitters will isolate his lively but straight fastball in late inning situations to procure clutch hits. Despite being named the outstanding pitcher on the staff last year, Chris was no better than the third best reliever on this club or the fourth or fifth best starter. He became the darling of scouts last season when they noticed a velocity spike in relief appearances, but 14 home runs in 84 ip's tell me that this is still a pitcher searching for a role as he approaches 27 years of age... albeit a talented one.

This was a slam dunk for O'Brien in his first trade. Neither of these kids have a history of arm trouble, have comparable stuff to Rietsma even at this point in their careers and easily project as major league pitchers for a long time to come. It is the kind of return that some people on this very board would have accepted for Adam Dunn during the depths of his dispair last summer. I think Rietsma will fit nicely into a veteran staff in Atlanta, but do not look for him to ever succeed John Smoltz closer, or crack their rotation, unless Leo Mezzoni is able to work some magic that Gully has no knowledge of. The Reds preyed upon some rampant propaganda in this deal, and it DOES feel good to be on the right side of a trade for a change.

MikeS21
03-28-2004, 08:40 AM
Honestly, I am pleasantly surprised that OB was able to get such a return for Reitsma.

I'm not too worried about Braves' cast-offs. As others have said, it was going to be a bit hard for Nelson and Bong to crack the rotation unless the Braves dumped some MAJOR contracts.

It seems that Bong has basically the same stuff as Reitsma, ecept from the left side. Great change, lively fastball, token curve (Bong seems to have a slightly better curveball than Chris). The main area of difference is the mental toughness part, but experience will help Bong with that.

Nelson is the unknown. He is the Braves #3 prospect according to the 2004 BA prospect handbook. And the Braves have the #3 ranked farm system. Nelson immediatelky becomes our #1 or #2 prospect.

Krusty
03-28-2004, 09:26 AM
Finally, I was able to get back on this site after two fruitless days of attempts.

Anyways, the best way for me to describe my feelings of this trade is what someone else posted on another site:

[This is an oustanding deal for the good guys. I liked Reitsma, but he will never be an effective starting pitcher until he develops a third pitch (he never will), and he will never have the location or velocity to be the second coming of Trevor Hoffman as a closer. There is a cieling on his ablities whichever way you use him. The number of gopher balls he gives up tells me that guys sit on his fastball inspite of the fact that he probably has the best changeup in baseball.

I'll hit the Bong! I think the kid had good numbers until a particular mid-season series at American Small Park when the Reds beat him up pretty good on consecutive nights. From what I understand, he hits 92-93 on his fastball and sports a pretty good changeup/curve combination of his own. I think Gully can work with what he has to offer. At worst, we may be looking at a valuable situational lefty out of the pen. But, he is young enough and has enough variety in his arsenal to improve his command and be a quality starting pitcher.

This evening I have read that Nelson is ranked anywhere from the first to the third best prospect in what Baseball America ranks as the 5th best minor league system in baseball (although probably not after the last two days). Again, if starting assignments do not work out, we are probably still looking at an above-average bullpen guy who could easily be the equal of Rietsma.

What I love most is that neither of these guys have a history of arm trouble, to my knowledge.

Rietsma is more valuable to a team like the Braves, who have 90% of their pitching staff settled going into 2004. When you have Paul Wilson, Todd Van Poppel and Jimmy Haynes vying for roles on your team and do not have to give up Kearns or Dunn to get something like this done, it is a no-brainer. Rietsma does not have to bear much of a burden in Atlanta, and could even excel to stardom. But, it still would not cast a shadow on this deal from our perspective. Rietsma was the third best reliever on this club, behind Danny and Wagner. Even if it does not work out the way we all would like it, it was a slam dunk for O'Brien's first deal.

RFS62
03-28-2004, 09:39 AM
A great deal for both teams. Atlanta overpaid to get what they want, which a great GM has to be willing to do at times. We dealt from an area of strength into an area of need.

Chris was one of my favorite players since we picked him up. It will be easy to root for him wherever he ends up. A class act and a good guy.

Red Flash
03-28-2004, 10:30 AM
This deal blows big time! Reistma was one of the better pitchers on the Reds staff. I am sick and tired of these penny pinching moves. They replaced him with Todd Jones? Someone who coudn't make the Devilrays roster. Come on!

Krusty
03-28-2004, 11:01 AM
But you got two young starting pitchers in Bong and Nelson that could be a part of a starting rotation for at least the next six years.

Do you think those great Atlanta staffs of Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Millwood and others were a product of free agency? How did the Cubs acquire Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Clement and Cruz? It wasn't by free agency.

The Reds know the best way to build an effective pitching staff and keep it for several years is through the farm system or through trades. You deal from strength to shore up a sore spot on the roster.

Todd Jones will be nothing more than a middle reliever. The key guy to watch out for is Valentine. He could be a factor the second half of the seasson out of the bullpen.

Redmachine2003
03-28-2004, 11:01 AM
Red Flash if Reistma is such a stud then why is he only a MR and not a Starter or closer and this for team starved for pitching. Heck he wasn't even the closer of the future for the Reds, Wagner passed him by.

Red Flash
03-28-2004, 11:13 AM
why then get Jones a day before the trade?

letsgojunior
03-28-2004, 11:55 AM
From Gammons

In less than 24 hours, John Schuerholz changed the face of a Braves bullpen that was a major concern. "How he got the Reds' best pitcher (Chris Reitsma) for two fringy starters (Jung Bong and Bubba Nelson) is beyond belief," said one baseball executive. "Atlanta is a lot better now."

Chris Reitsma
Reliever
Atlanta Braves
Profile


2003 SEASON STATISTICS
IP H SO W-L S ERA
84.0 92 53 9-5 12 4.29




Reitsma is 27, and gives Bobby Cox a bridge to John Smoltz who throws 94 with one of the best changeups around, an athletic, reliable guy. Juan Cruz, 25, who came over from the Cubs in the Andy Pratt deal Thursday, is more of a project. "I know he has a great arm," says Leo Mazzone. "We will try to get him to locate his fastball down and away and work from there." For now, Cruz is headed for the bullpen, although in time he might get a look as a starter. "Arms like that are hard to overlook," says Cox. Another GM, however, thought the Cubs did very well. Pratt, 24, led the International League in strikeouts and has another option.

Aronchis
03-28-2004, 02:10 PM
Gammons is pathetic, calling Nelson or Wong a "fringe" pitcher is sad. When I saw Wong pitch last year, he looked to have a live arm, better than Reitsma's. Nelson was traded because the Braves are to impatient, but calling his stuff fringe, is sad. What baseball "executive" said this Peter, the ones from Candyland. Let it rest.

letsgojunior
03-28-2004, 02:14 PM
It was a baseball executive calling the pitchers fringe, not Gammons. He was simply reporting a quote.

Aronchis
03-28-2004, 02:16 PM
Or Gammons was the baseball executive.

Redmachine2003
03-28-2004, 02:43 PM
Maybe he still thinks of Jimbo as an executive? This in Jimbo eyes was a bad trade. The Reds didn't get any 5 tool players that can't hit and a pitcher that throws 95-100 mph but can't find the strikezone. :evilone:

M2
03-28-2004, 02:52 PM
I like the deal. It's two for one for a middle reliever and Nelson's got big upside. Bong's a fringe guy, but, unlike Dumatrait and Manning, he's good enough to warrant a few more trials in the majors (though I'd make him a starter in AAA right now).

And I'll still like this deal even after Leo Mazzone turns Chris Reitsma into a 15-game winner in 2005.

Though it does present a challenge to the Reds' development folks and pitching coaches. The Reds have been particularly inept at teaching control and that is the flaw in both Nelson and Bong's games. I'm glad the Reds didn't find more guys who "pound" the strikezone with mediocrity, but it's no given they can work with these pitchers. In fact, I'd be treating these guys (and Claussen) as a litmus test for the pitching folks in both the minors and majors.

M2
03-28-2004, 03:07 PM
Time to start WINNING some deals (cf. Claussen for Boone)

Actually, I think this deal puts the Boone swap in perspective. The Reds just got as much for a middle reliever as they received for an All-Star 3B in a market clamoring for 3B talent.

princeton
03-28-2004, 03:10 PM
I agree that they're probably fringey and that Reitsma was the Reds' best arm if it's not Wagner's. Bong pitched scared last year and Nelson hasn't proven anything. I figure that neither Bong nor Nelson looked especially good this spring, or else the Braves would have kept them. According to GARed, Reitsma looked very good.

That's the nature of these types of deals. And I'm not pleased with any deal that gives up your fine arm when arms are your limiting factor.

that said, the Reds seem out to gain a critical mass of young arms, and that's a road to small market success-- eventually. I don't know if Bong or Nelson or Claussen or Valentine or Dumatrait or Moseley or who's going to be the guy(s) that become big pitchers, but I do think that it's reasonable to think that we're acquiring the right number/quality of guy to expect good pitching in Cincy.

M2's right: let's see if we can shine any up. Remember though: most will fail anywhere

Don't stop now.

traderumor
03-28-2004, 04:41 PM
Reitsma was the Reds' best arm

This always frustrated me. He would look unhittable in a start, lose focus for a few batters and give up 2 or 3 quick runs by the time the smoke cleared. In relief, no one could touch him, except for one guy who would promptly plant a high 90s fastball over the fence for the game winner. Most talented perhaps, but never the best pitcher. Unfortunately for Chris, those two always seemed mutually exclusive. Guess we'll see if the pitching wizard can weave his magic wand once again.

Redmachine2003
03-28-2004, 04:47 PM
What about Reitsma made him a great pitcher? Was it the .280 batting avg teams had against him? Was it the career 4.50 era? Was it the career 1.38 WHIP? or Was it all the Strike outs he had? What makes him so much better than Bong. They both have very good changeups, Chris can hit 95-97 mph with his fastball and Bong can hit 93-95 mph, and from what I hear Bong has a better curveball. Bong is 23 and left handed Chris is 26 and Right handed. Chris really didn't have a role on this team. He was ok at starting and closing but not great at either. Don't get me wrong I liked Reitsma, but I don't see how this was a bad trade. I think the Reds made out very well on this trade and if either one of these kids make the rotation this year it will be more than what we would of got out of Chris this year in his MR role.

princeton
03-28-2004, 06:02 PM
from last August: "(Reitsma's) throwing 95 and the ball's sinking a foot," one AL scout said. "Who wouldn't want him?"

Wagner, Graves and Reitsma are the three pitchers on the current Reds that you could see as key parts to a playoff pitching staff. Too bad that they are all RHRPers, but there are no others. And don't take my word for it w.r.t. Reitsma: certainly the Braves agree. As an opposing manager, I'd LOVE to see Jung Bong on the playoff mound over Reitsma, even if I have a lefty at the plate. The Braves agree with that assessment, too. There's no doubt that he has tools, but Bong looked jittery out there last year.

now that MAY change. The Reds are banking on one of these guys to be at least as good as Reitsma in two years. And cheaper. For the Reds, cheaper's the key.

Two more points: first, IIRC, Jung Bong seriously refused to "pitch to contact" last year. And the idea was that he had the command to do it, he just wouldn't challenge. It'll be interesting to see if the Reds can Brantley him. Nelson's reputation, OTOH, is that he challenges. Of course, that often changes once a guy's been swatted around a bit at the major league level, but it is still a promising sign

Second, the fact that the Braves' defense is better than the Reds' is really going to help CR.

Redmachine2003
03-28-2004, 06:58 PM
I remember Chris's fastball being flat and hittable most of the time. I knew his change up was better in the bull pen because he was throwing his fastball harder. I really don't remember Chris blowing anyone away with his fastball it was his buggs bunny changeup that got him his big outs. But I could be wrong. Teams did hit .280 off of him and he does give up alot of HRs. To me that means his fastball is a little flat.

REDREAD
03-29-2004, 08:34 AM
Oh, geez, like a player's not supposed to fight for himself in arbitration? Geez, gimme a break.

Not in John Allen's world :) ... They are supposed to take what the Reds
offer and thank them profusely :)

REDREAD
03-29-2004, 08:47 AM
I should've been more specific. I meant in the short term, the Braves considered
both Bubba and Bong to be bullpen guys. Maybe longterm too, but I can't prove it.



2004 Outlook
While he is expected to remain in the Atlanta bullpen this year, Bong could be considered for a job in the rotation when he starts using all three of his pitches more consistently. He also could get more seasoning in Triple-A.

And then when you consider Bong was in their pen last year...

I believe another article said that Bubba was switched to the bullpen in the second part
of last year to get him to the majors quicker.

Thus, from a Braves perspective, in the short term, they are trading quanity for quality
in the middle relief area. A good trade for them.

Obviously, from the Reds point of view, we're hoping at least one of them turns into
a good starter.

My comment "The braves considered these guys bullpenners", was not to dump on this trade.
Considering the lousy financial situation we're stuck in, this was a very good trade.
I mean DanO got more for Reitsma than Kullman got for Williamson.. Who whould've thought
that?

Even if the two prospects wash out, I think it was a chance worth taking. Good trade, and
I think more of DanO now than I did a couple weeks ago.

buckeyenut
03-29-2004, 09:39 AM
I mean DanO got more for Reitsma than Kullman got for Williamson.. Who whould've thought
that?

Reitsma had more trade value than Willy.

He is younger, far cheaper (at time of deals) this year and next, and has been talked about as having Trevor Hoffman upside as a closer without the control or stamina or motion problems that always came up when talking Scotty. Reitsma is seen as having stud closer potential. I think Willy had proven through his time in the role that he wasn't a stud closer, he was instead a notch below.

That is the nice thing about ML players with potential with limited opportunities, they can bring a lot in trade. They haven't proven they CAN'T handle the role yet.

M2
03-29-2004, 10:27 AM
Reitsma had more trade value than Willy.

He is younger, far cheaper (at time of deals) this year and next, and has been talked about as having Trevor Hoffman upside as a closer without the control or stamina or motion problems that always came up when talking Scotty. Reitsma is seen as having stud closer potential. I think Willy had proven through his time in the role that he wasn't a stud closer, he was instead a notch below.

That is the nice thing about ML players with potential with limited opportunities, they can bring a lot in trade. They haven't proven they CAN'T handle the role yet.

On what planet would that be remotely true?

Williamson was a full-fledged, high octane closer with a 3.19 ERA being dealt near the trade deadline last season. Roughly 2/3 of the teams in the majors were in the playoff hunt and almost all of them needed an arm like Williamson's. I don't know what rating system it is you're using to establish who is and isn't a stud closer, but Williamson had undoubtedly established himself as a better at that moment than Ugy Urbina, who fetched a king's ransom from the Marlins.

And if Williamson was a notch below stud closer, then Reitsma's got to be about three notches below. He's been in the bigs for three seasons. He's not that much of an unknown.

Boss-Hog
03-29-2004, 10:29 AM
On what planet would that be remotely true?

Williamson was a full-fledged, high octane closer with a 3.19 ERA being dealt near the trade deadline last season. Roughly 2/3 of the teams in the majors were in the playoff hunt and almost all of them needed an arm like Williamson's. I don't know what rating system it is you're using to establish who is and isn't a stud closer, but Williamson had undoubtedly established himself as a better at that moment than Ugy Urbina, who fetched a king's ransom from the Marlins.

And if Williamson was a notch below stud closer, then Reitsma's got to be about three notches below. He's been in the bigs for three seasons. He's not that much of an unknown.
What M2 said. I like the return for Reitsma...the return for Williamson was a joke.

princeton
03-29-2004, 10:30 AM
Gammons' report would seem to suggest that the Reds could have gotten much more than the Braves offered.

To reinforce, there's this from DDN:

"As for traded pitcher Chris Reitsma, major-league scouts continue to shake their heads over why the Reds would trade him for what they did — 23-year-old Bong and 22 year-old Bubba Nelson.

"Said one scout, "We wanted him, and I know we offered better than what they got, although Nelson has a very good arm." Industry sources say in addition to the Philadelphia Phillies, the Minnesota Twins, Cleveland Indians and Seattle Mariners also had interest"

I'd be interested in what other offers were available, in order to track them over the next year or so

Redsfaithful
03-29-2004, 10:35 AM
The Twins definitely had interest, there was a blurb in their local paper, but it didn't say who they were dangling.

They're so heavy in outfielders and light on pitching that I'm not sure how they could have helped the Reds.

15fan
03-29-2004, 10:46 AM
Of course the "losers" in the Reitsma sweepstakes are going to say that they made a better offer. Part of the job is to pump up the guys within their respective organizations for future deals.

It's like when the pretty girl at the dance starts talking to another guy. There's no way that the other guy is as smart, good-looking, witty, or athletic as you are. If she's wasting her time talking to him instead of you, that's her loss.

(Unless, of course, that him is yours truly. In that case, she clearly made the best choice. ;) )

It would be interesting to know what other offers were on the table, though.

On a related note, this morning's AJC had a few lines about the guys getting their first look at Reitsma. They mentioned that he has the killer change, but what makes it so effective is that CR could go 95 mph with his fastball.

I choked on my Cheerios when I read that.

princeton
03-29-2004, 10:54 AM
Of course the "losers" in the Reitsma sweepstakes are going to say that they made a better offer. Part of the job is to pump up the guys within their respective organizations for future deals.

if they were going to do that, then they'd name names

And that's all I ask. Don't spread rumors, AL scout, spread good rumors. Name some names. take some initiative in feeding the hungry message boards.

buckeyenut
03-29-2004, 10:57 AM
On what planet would that be remotely true?

Williamson was a full-fledged, high octane closer with a 3.19 ERA being dealt near the trade deadline last season. Roughly 2/3 of the teams in the majors were in the playoff hunt and almost all of them needed an arm like Williamson's. I don't know what rating system it is you're using to establish who is and isn't a stud closer, but Williamson had undoubtedly established himself as a better at that moment than Ugy Urbina, who fetched a king's ransom from the Marlins.

And if Williamson was a notch below stud closer, then Reitsma's got to be about three notches below. He's been in the bigs for three seasons. He's not that much of an unknown.

Trevor Hoffman was a stud closer and Reitsma has been continually compared to him in the half a season or less since he became a closer.

Williamson, as much as I personally loved him, made 2M more than Reitsma and had control problems which kept him from being a stud closer. Now, he was very good, better than Ugi as you mention, in the top ten of closers IMO. And would have been even better as a starter. And the return on him was crap. But, Reitsma has that P word and Willy was already a "known" quantity.

Willy's value in my mind still was and is if someone were to use him as a starter. But I think that ship has sailed.

buckeyenut
03-29-2004, 11:03 AM
The Twins definitely had interest, there was a blurb in their local paper, but it didn't say who they were dangling.

They're so heavy in outfielders and light on pitching that I'm not sure how they could have helped the Reds.

We talked twins all offseason for Reitsma. Cuddyer for Reitsma was the fit we saw. My guess? MIN wouldn't do that one and was dangling less.

I think we got more than what Reitsma was worth in this deal with ATL. Not sure how we could have gotten much more elsewhere.

traderumor
03-29-2004, 12:37 PM
Gammons' report would seem to suggest that the Reds could have gotten much more than the Braves offered.

To reinforce, there's this from DDN:

"As for traded pitcher Chris Reitsma, major-league scouts continue to shake their heads over why the Reds would trade him for what they did — 23-year-old Bong and 22 year-old Bubba Nelson.

"Said one scout, "We wanted him, and I know we offered better than what they got, although Nelson has a very good arm." Industry sources say in addition to the Philadelphia Phillies, the Minnesota Twins, Cleveland Indians and Seattle Mariners also had interest"

I'd be interested in what other offers were available, in order to track them over the next year or so

It is this kind of writing that makes me shake my head harder than the once again anonymous scouts. Reitsma was overvalued and we got two younger highly regarded prospects in return. This looks like jilted lover comments to me.

Aronchis
03-29-2004, 12:51 PM
Must like prospect ratings, these types of reports by Gammons and DDN are suspiciously flat with no juice to them. They do sound like sour grapes and should be taken that way.

If Nelson wins 15 games for the Reds in 2005 or 2006, I don't think anybody is going to complain except Braves fans wondering why they traded away their best young pitchers. It is the players involved who should be watched, not some "anonymous" shadow who is a supposed know it all.

princeton
03-29-2004, 01:05 PM
Must like prospect ratings, these types of reports by Gammons and DDN are suspiciously flat with no juice to them. They do sound like sour grapes and should be taken that way.

I don't think that it's hard to believe. First, there should have been other offers, as the Reds have been shopping CR for months. Second, the Reds have no lefties and recently showed their desperation by overpaying for two of them (Dumatrait, Pelland). If some other team offered a more talented prospect than Bong to pair up with a prospect as talented as Nelson, it's not clear that the lefty-starved Reds wouldn't have rejected the better offer for the offer that included the lefty. Needs often win out over best available, as the Bengals show during nearly every NFL draft.

M2
03-29-2004, 01:13 PM
While I'm suspect that anyone actually outbid the Braves (largely because Nelson's a quality starter prospect), I find it a constant cause for amusement that people with no contacts in the baseball world get their jollies out of bashing Peter Gammons, who has more contacts in the baseball world than anyone in history. You may not agree with what his contacts are saying, but I appreciate that the guy picks the brains of people inside the game for comments on pretty much every single move that gets made.

Philadelphia as a potential trading partner for Reitsma would have been interesting. I'm a big fan of Ryan Madson, who's ready now. Nelson's got a higher ceiling though and I'm thinking it'll take a month of real games before the Phillies wake up to what their areas of deficit are.

REDREAD
03-29-2004, 02:57 PM
Williamson, as much as I personally loved him, made 2M more than Reitsma and had control problems which kept him from being a stud closer.

The problem with that assumption is that most clubs do not think like the Reds.

Three million for a guy like Williamson is reasonable to a lot of clubs.
There's much worse relievers making comparable money.
So I don't think Willie's salary had much to do with it.

IMO, Williamson was basically what we hoped Reitsma will become.
Williamson was a truely dominant reliever..

traderumor
03-29-2004, 03:06 PM
While I'm suspect that anyone actually outbid the Braves (largely because Nelson's a quality starter prospect), I find it a constant cause for amusement that people with no contacts in the baseball world get their jollies out of bashing Peter Gammons, who has more contacts in the baseball world than anyone in history. You may not agree with what his contacts are saying, but I appreciate that the guy picks the brains of people inside the game for comments on pretty much every single move that gets made.

Philadelphia as a potential trading partner for Reitsma would have been interesting. I'm a big fan of Ryan Madson, who's ready now. Nelson's got a higher ceiling though and I'm thinking it'll take a month of real games before the Phillies wake up to what their areas of deficit are.

No jollies here in criticizing a sportswriter for a lack of identifiable sources, I'm not that easily amused ;) . That's my big rub with your boy, M2, as I think is an ongoing complaint with his detractors around here. I understand the whole anonymous source game, but am able to take many things he says as lacking credibility because of the almost exclusive use of anonymous sources. In using one of your pet phrases, bully for Gammons because he has a lot of unnamed sources. And bully for those of us which consider the information lacking credibility because of that.

Far East
03-29-2004, 03:14 PM
Just arrived back in Maryland from a 4 game mini-vacation at ST, so I don't know if this is old news, but the Reds immediately threw Nelson in their Saturday AAA intrasquad game. He was the least impressive of any pitcher (IMHO) in that game. He didn't blow many hitters away and several hit him hard, including Reggie and a HR by a lefty-hitting first baseman, #35 -- I can't recall his name just now.

A lot of management was there to watch. I do not know their faces for certain, but O'Brein (for sure), one in street clothes who I think was Allen, and the oldest "civilian" with them who resembled Linder (the only one in long sleeved [black] shirt), and of course the uniformed Naerhing and Burleson. Miley was evidently with the varsity prepping for the Indians game.

westofyou
03-29-2004, 03:20 PM
Sheehan from BP mentioned the trade in his column today.

One Reds fan I know was pretty ticked about his team's swap of last year's closer for Jung Bong and Bubba Nelson, but the deal makes sense beyond money concerns. With the commitment to Danny Graves as a closer and the presence of Ryan Wagner and John Riedling, you could argue that Reitsma was only the Reds' fourth-best right-handed reliever. Bong is of roughly the same quality, left-handed, and will be a lot less expensive over the next two years. I would have used Reitsma as a starter and given Jimmy Haynes bad directions to the airport when camp broke, but that doesn't seem to be an option in Cincinnati right now.

princeton
03-29-2004, 03:21 PM
Just arrived back in Maryland from a 4 game mini-vacation at ST, so I don't know if this is old news, but the Reds immediately threw Nelson in their Saturday AAA intrasquad game. He was the least impressive of any pitcher (IMHO) in that game. He didn't blow many hitters away and several hit him hard.


thanks for the report. in a short major league camp appearance, Nelson also put up poor numbers. I suspect that had he looked closer than a year away, he'd still be a Brave

the Braves never overpay for relievers

westofyou
03-29-2004, 03:23 PM
"A lot of guys are very open talking about their own players and other teams' players, We're not like that. I never appreciate how open people are to feed ESPN or Baseball America. People learn about your organization from the outside. Peter Gammons doesn't call me--they know better. I'm not on the call sheet. I know that information isn't off the record. It's being traded and bartered all around."

--Brian Sabean, Giants general manager (Santa Rosa Press Democrat)

M2
03-29-2004, 03:24 PM
tr, Gammons does what he does. If you actually understand why he can't name his sources all the time (and he uses plenty of named sources too), then I don't see why you'd knock him for it. It's what he has to do to get the unvarnished opinion of baseball professionals into print. Beats the hell out of the mealy-mouthed nothing statements you get when these guys get in front of a microphone.

I don't agree with a lot of what Gammons' scouts/execs say, then again I think a lot of teams could do as well if they hired the stock-picking chicken to find talent. For instance, I think Nelson's a damn-fine return for Reitsma. Yet I don't see the point at chucking mud at Gammons because he talked to some people and relayed what they said. That's his job, telling us what's going on behind the scenes and there's no one better at it.

buckeyenut
03-29-2004, 03:30 PM
Philadelphia as a potential trading partner for Reitsma would have been interesting. I'm a big fan of Ryan Madson, who's ready now. Nelson's got a higher ceiling though and I'm thinking it'll take a month of real games before the Phillies wake up to what their areas of deficit are.

Which makes them a perfect home for Graves at the trade deadline. :)

M2
03-29-2004, 03:37 PM
Which makes them a perfect home for Graves at the trade deadline. :)

Now you're talking my language.

Falls City Beer
03-29-2004, 03:49 PM
Graves for Madson at the deadline?

Now that would be a coup.

These "quantity/middling" grabs of DanO's have a familiar ring of mediocrity to them.

Don't give up low priced mediocrity (Reitsma, Freel), for lower-priced mediocrity (Bong, Nelson, Tankersley).

Give up whatever the hell you have to give up for quality, even if it's only one trade every six months or so.

M2
03-29-2004, 03:56 PM
Graves for Madson at the deadline?

Now that would be a coup.

These "quantity/middling" grabs of DanO's have a familiar ring of mediocrity to them.

Don't give up low priced mediocrity (Reitsma, Freel), for lower-priced mediocrity (Bong, Nelson, Tankersley).

Give up whatever the hell you have to give up for quality, even if it's only one trade every six months or so.

I'd think Bubba would be right up your alley. He's certainly a Claussen-class pitcher.

Falls City Beer
03-29-2004, 04:02 PM
"I'd think Bubba would be right up your alley. He's certainly a Claussen-class pitcher."

Nelson IS the most intriguing of the three, but he's also the youngest, and therefore, the most difficult to project.

I'm in a holding pattern on Nelson. But he's clearly not the performer that Claussen's been (because, of course, he's much younger than Claussen--that's obviously not a criticism of Nelson).

Bong and Tankersley?

pee-yoo.

(Can we get Kullman back?) ;)

westofyou
03-29-2004, 04:20 PM
What's "wrong" with Bong?

7.7 A Ball K rate, 7.9 AA, do his 74 innings in AAA and MLB totally trump his lower ML numbers?

Young LH's are a iffy proposition that's for sure, they take longer to find their command that's for sure but I wouldn't kick him out to the curb so fast.

Chip R
03-29-2004, 04:29 PM
Nelson's got a higher ceiling though and I'm thinking it'll take a month of real games before the Phillies wake up to what their areas of deficit are.You think they would have wanted Reitsma to be player-manager?

PuffyPig
03-29-2004, 06:48 PM
Graves for Madson at the deadline?

Now that would be a coup.

These "quantity/middling" grabs of DanO's have a familiar ring of mediocrity to them.

Don't give up low priced mediocrity (Reitsma, Freel), for lower-priced mediocrity (Bong, Nelson, Tankersley).

Give up whatever the hell you have to give up for quality, even if it's only one trade every six months or so.

Nelson was the highest rated pitcher in a Top 5 Farm system. BA has him rated much higher than Madson, who continues to fall lower in their ratings.

Redmachine2003
03-29-2004, 07:27 PM
What is with Rotoworld? They have Nelson listed as the Braves 6th best prospect and have 6 of the Braves prospects in the top 100 prospects but they don't list Nelson they list the 7th best Braves prospect Dan Meyer at #62 and its 8th best prospect Adam LaRoche at #39. I just don't get it.

creek14
03-30-2004, 05:14 AM
As for traded pitcher Chris Reitsma, major-league scouts continue to shake their heads over why the Reds would trade him for what they did — 23-year-old Bong and 22 year-old Bubba Nelson.

Said one scout, "We wanted him, and I know we offered better than what they got, although Nelson has a very good arm." Industry sources say in addition to the Philadelphia Phillies, the Minnesota Twins, Cleveland Indians and Seattle Mariners also had interest.

During the winter meetings December in New Orleans, one Reds official said, "The No. 1 name that kept coming up from other teams was Chris Reitsma."

RedsBaron
03-30-2004, 10:05 AM
This thread has been an example of the very best of RedsZone, an insightful analysis of a trade by people much more knowledgable that the average hack writing for a newspaper. I've really enjoyed the thread and I've been convinced this was a good trade for the Reds. There is never any guarantee with a trade, but I like what the Reds have received.

buckeyenut
03-30-2004, 11:05 AM
This thread has been an example of the very best of RedsZone, an insightful analysis of a trade by people much more knowledgable that the average hack writing for a newspaper. I've really enjoyed the thread and I've been convinced this was a good trade for the Reds. There is never any guarantee with a trade, but I like what the Reds have received.

I agree completely. Reasonable discussion, some of both sides of the argument, friendliness to one another, the required board down caused by the trade, and in general, well thought out posts rather than blatant homerism (although you gotta have some of that too).

Now if it could just always be this way. :)

savafan
03-30-2004, 11:09 AM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0329reds.html

As for traded pitcher Chris Reitsma, major-league scouts continue to shake their heads over why the Reds would trade him for what they did — 23-year-old Bong and 22 year-old Bubba Nelson.

Said one scout, "We wanted him, and I know we offered better than what they got, although Nelson has a very good arm." Industry sources say in addition to the Philadelphia Phillies, the Minnesota Twins, Cleveland Indians and Seattle Mariners also had interest.

During the winter meetings December in New Orleans, one Reds official said, "The No. 1 name that kept coming up from other teams was Chris Reitsma."

westofyou
03-30-2004, 03:08 PM
BP's TA report had this today.

http://premium.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2717

Acquired RHP Bubba Nelson and LHP Jung Bong from the Braves for RHP Chris Reitsma. [3/26]

Optioned LHP Brandon Claussen to Louisville. [3/28]

It isn't often that you'd tab a March move as a white flag, but swapping out Reitsma for future-oriented goodies certainly resembles exactly that. Although I'm not a big fan of guys like Brian Reith or Todd Jones or Todd Van Poppel, the Reds' pen is stocked with arms of in all sorts of flavors: talented, prospect-y, established, or journeyman. So they had depth to deal from.

Despite the change in leadership, this deal actually fits in pretty handily with last summer's mass acquisition of other people's young pitching, although the swag is a little more promising than last year's deals. Jung Bong might get typecast into a lefty bullpen role after the miserable camps that Mike Matthews and Phil Norton have had, but he could also slip into the rotation when the need arises. As a franchise, the Reds blew it with Dennys Reyes; here's hoping that they let Bong pitch, instead of wishing he'll be the new Eddie Guardado. Nelson is arguably less of a prospect, but in a year or two, he could wind up being more valuable than Reitsma, either as a starter or reliever. Getting both Bong and Nelson may not make a major difference for your 2004 Reds, but it ought to mean something in 2005 and beyond.

What's a little more surprising is the decision to run off Brandon Claussen. Thirteen spring strikeouts in 14 innings may not mean much in the grand scheme of things, but Claussen has obvious promise. Hopefully, the season's early fascination with guys like Jesus Sanchez and Jimmy Haynes will peter out, and the Reds can get into the business of looking at the good stuff that's nearly ready.

======================

The Braves need big league-ready arms if they're going to be able to push Larry Bowa into tripping all over himself on the way to a pennant race. The question is whether or not you think John Schuerholz is targeting the right pitchers to shore up his staff. I like that he's taken on two guys with risk and up-side in Juan Cruz and Chris Reitsma, but the key word is 'risk.' Both could merely be useful relievers, at which point you got something you can normally find on waivers (as the Braves have in the past) for some of your few upper-level goodies. As decisions go, I don't disagree with the philosophy: the Phillies might be ten-game favorites, but I'm one of those skeptics who think that they'll find a way to keep things interesting. So gearing up now makes sense.

The question is whether the Braves have fed their need, or whether their problems remain as thoroughgoing as they appear to be. As Opening Day approaches, on the back end of a rotation stocked with the mostly functional, they're wishcasting Jaret Wright into the fifth slot. That's on top of their hoping that John Thomson works out, and while I'd consider that appropriate optimism, a slow start by the team and by Thomson might get the hounds baying for blood. Paul Byrd might be ready in early May, but if the Braves are falling back that soon, it strains credulity to assume that Byrd will fix a rotation that might have problems with quality and reliability by then.

But just as I already wondered about Cruz, let's take Reitsma. He was very effective as a reliever last year, rating well in Michael Wolverton's relief metrics. Over his big league career (the last three years), he's posted a relief ERA of 3.26 while striking out seven guys per nine. That's tasty. If he's a starter, he's got a 4.91 ERA in 53 starts, and 5.8 runs allowed per nine innings. As a starter, he's homer-prone, his strikeout rates drop to middling. Sure, some of that might be the normal mayhem associated with trying to work for Bob Boone, but some of it may also be that Reitsma just isn't going to be a great starting pitcher someday. To have given up two highly-regarded arms this early for a good big league reliever isn't a terrible exchange on the face of it, but the Braves don't have a lot of pitching talent above A-ball to peddle at this point. If the Braves can't make big solutions in-season for lack of an extra bargaining chip, it wasn't because they lost it in the couch.