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Reverend Doo-Rag
08-09-2004, 03:08 PM
What are they talking about on WLW?

johngalt
08-09-2004, 03:11 PM
Traded to Phillies

airalex
08-09-2004, 03:13 PM
For who??? :gac:

jmcclain19
08-09-2004, 03:13 PM
For who??? :gac:


For Pat Burrell - straight up.

Kidding kidding - don't know, they did well in the Jones trade - so hopefully someone good.

johngalt
08-09-2004, 03:14 PM
No one special from what it sounds like. An OF named Moran and a pitcher named Joe Wilson. Both going to Dayton. Also a PTBNL.

Pays to have friends in the media sometimes. ;)

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:15 PM
For Pat Burrell - straight up.

Hey Jr wouldn't be the highest paid OF next year for the Reds.

Maybe Burrell can play 3b, isn't that where he played in college.

;)

jmcclain19
08-09-2004, 03:16 PM
Seth Etherton, come on down, you're today's winner on "Who will pitch this week in Cincinnati"

Chip R
08-09-2004, 03:16 PM
No one special from what it sounds like. An OF named Moran and a pitcher named Joe Wilson. Both going to Dayton. Also a PTBNL.

Pays to have friends in the media sometimes. ;)
Lidle got traded for a Moran? That figures. :lol:

Oxilon
08-09-2004, 03:18 PM
Are Dan O'Brien and Ed Wade friends? 2 of his 3 deals have been with the Phils.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:19 PM
Souns like they must not be very confident about Millwood. Lidle WILL be better than Paul Abbott.

johngalt
08-09-2004, 03:19 PM
Millwood just went on the DL and could be out a while, and I think they had talked to the Reds about Lidle and Wilson even before the deadline, so I guess it's not too surprising.

RosieRed
08-09-2004, 03:19 PM
Huh. Interesting. I thought for sure Lidle would be here all season after not getting traded at the deadline.

Well, Lidle, good luck out there, and thanks for trying out! :)

Chip R
08-09-2004, 03:20 PM
Looks like Will's ears were pretty sharp. :thumbup:

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 03:20 PM
Sad that Lidle couldn't net more than a couple Single A "B" prospects.

redsfan30
08-09-2004, 03:22 PM
I know he's had a bad year, but as scarce as the pitching market is that's all we got for him?

I'm not going to pass judgement until I do some more research on what we got, but on the surface looks like the Phils got the better of it.

TeamSelig
08-09-2004, 03:23 PM
Joe Wilson (Lakewood BlueClaws Single A) 6'3" 195
Javon Moran (same) 5'11" 175

airalex
08-09-2004, 03:24 PM
Heres a story I found about Joe Wilson:

Joe Wilson Info (http://phillies.theinsiders.com/2/215343.html)

Top Prospect #38: LHP, Joe Wilson
By PBN Staff
Date: Dec 20, 2003

Joe Wilson came to the Phillies from the University of Maryland Ė Baltimore County in the 13th round of the 2003 Draft. Before long, Wilson was showing his stuff in the Phillies minor league system and took one step up the organizational ladder in just his first season of professional ball.

You have to love a young college arm that doesnít have too much mileage on it. Especially when that arm is a left one. Thatís what Joe Wilson brought to the Phillies when they grabbed him in the 2003 Draft.

Wilson spent most of his time as a starter at the University of Marylandís Baltimore County Campus. Still, he didnít put the mileage on his arm that a lot of young pitchers do. Wilson pitched 152 innings between 2002 and 2003 in college. Not a huge amount of innings, but enough that he was able to show what he can do on a mound.

The Phillies drafted Wilson and started him slowly by putting him in the Gulf Coast League. Wilson quickly started to impress and was bumped to Batavia after pitching in 11 games, 9 of which were starts. Wilson went 4-2, 2.06 before his promotion and didnít miss a beat after arriving at Batavia. The 21 year old made two more starts at Batavia, going 1-1, 2.40 for the Muck Dogs.

Wilson is a control pitcher who relies on location. He has enough velocity that he can fire up a strong fastball and throw it by a hitter when he has to, but also features good movement on his pitches that keeps hitters off guard. Wilson wonít turn 22 until the 2003 season is nearly finished and by then, he should be at Lakewood. Itís possible that he will even start the season at Lakewood depending on how roster spots fall and how Wilson does in minor league camp in the spring.

TeamSelig
08-09-2004, 03:25 PM
Moran

412 AB 2 HR 37 RBI 24 BB 76 SO 41 SB 16 CS .284 AVG

Wilson

4-4 3.15 ERA 18 games 80 IP 2 HR allowed 40 BB 79 SO

johngalt
08-09-2004, 03:26 PM
From Philadelphia's official Web site:


Right-hander Cory Lidle was acquired by the Phillies for two minor league players, outfielder Javon Moran and left-hander Joe Wilson, and a player to be named later or cash, Vice President & General Manager Ed Wade announced today.
Lidle, 32, earned the victory yesterday for Cincinnati to bring his record this season to 7-10 with a 5.32 ERA in 24 starts. He is tied for second in the National League with three complete games, and his 149.0 innings led the Cincinnati pitching staff. Lidle has pitched at least 5.0 innings in 22 of his 24 starts and at least 7.0 innings ten times.

Originally signed by Minnesota as a non-drafted free agent in 1990, Lidle has spent parts of seven seasons in the Major Leagues. He is 52-49 with a 4.56 ERA in 205 games (128 starts) for the Mets (1997), Devil Rays (1999-2000), A's (2001-02), Blue Jays (2003) and Reds (2004).

Lidle averaged 11 wins and 190.0 innings from 2000 to 2002 as a starting pitcher for the A's and Blue Jays. In 2001 and 2002, he pitched in the American League Division Series for Oakland.

Moran, 21, was hitting .285 with 18 doubles, nine triples, two home runs and 38 RBIs for Class A Lakewood. The right-handed-hitting outfielder had 39 steals, which ranked fourth in the South Atlantic League, and 73 runs scored, which was ranked fifth in the league. Moran was the Phillies' fourth-round selection in the 2003 draft out of Auburn University.

Wilson, 22, was 4-7 with a 3.64 ERA in 24 games (19 starts) for Lakewood, holding opposing hitters to a .217 average. He was drafted by the Phillies in the 13th round in 2003 out of the University of Maryland.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:26 PM
I know he's had a bad year, but as scarce as the pitching market is that's all we got for him?

I'm not going to pass judgement until I do some more research on what we got, but on the surface looks like the Phils got the better of it.

We should have held out for Floyd.

:eek:

redsfan30
08-09-2004, 03:28 PM
What posistion does Moran play?

savafan
08-09-2004, 03:28 PM
41 stolen bases! :eek:

airalex
08-09-2004, 03:29 PM
41 stolen bases! :eek:

:eek: :eek:

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 03:29 PM
What posistion does Moran play?

I'm guessing that with that speed he's a CFer. He'd have a pretty weak bat for a corner outfielder.

KronoRed
08-09-2004, 03:29 PM
So long Lidle, picked a good time to have a good game :D

airalex
08-09-2004, 03:29 PM
I'm guessing that with that speed he's a CFer. He'd have a pretty weak bat for a corner outfielder.

So he's another Jason Romano. :eek:

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 03:30 PM
41 stolen bases! :eek:


In 57 opportunities!!! 16 times he was caught!!! :help:

westofyou
08-09-2004, 03:31 PM
but on the surface looks like the Phils got the better of it.

7 weeks of Lidle and then he was history.

Turn your cows into beans Jack, that cow ain't got no milk.

UKFlounder
08-09-2004, 03:31 PM
Nothing spectacular, but at first glance it doesn't sound like too bad a deal in exchange for a free agent to be who has mostly struggled for the past couple of months.

Doc. Scott
08-09-2004, 03:33 PM
No one special from what it sounds like. An OF named Moran and a pitcher named Joe Wilson. Both going to Dayton. Also a PTBNL.

Pays to have friends in the media sometimes. ;)

A few clicks...

OF Javon Moran, 21:

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=DCFEJ

5th-round pick in 2003 out of Auburn. He's hitting .285/.340/.385 with 39 steals in 56 attempts in 101 games for the Low-A Lakewood Blueclaws. 5'11", 175 lbs.- first glance shows him to be your classic jackrabbit, solid on hitting for average but low to mediocre on power and plate discipline.

Dayton does have a shortage of solid OFs behind Chris Dickerson and Cody Strait's possible future- Ben Himes and Kyle Smith are both injured and not doing well, while Jarrod Schmidt was released. Moran slots in well for the remainder of 2004, at least.
---

LHP, Joe Wilson, 22:

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=DGIDI

13th-round pick in 2003 out of U. of Maryland-Baltimore County. He's 4-7 with a 3.64 ERA in 24 games, 19 starts, for the Low-A club. 74 hits in 94 IP, 49 BB, 89 K. Only four homers allowed, very nice. 6'3", 190 lbs., with decent pro numbers in the GCL and rookie leagues to this point.
---

Two college draftees with short professional careers to this point. Moran has tools, it seems; Wilson keeps the ball in the park, which along with BB/K ratio is a strong indicator of future success. I like the arm a little better at this point. Along with a PTBNL, again, not the world's worst haul for a FA-to-be pitcher with a 5.3 ERA on a team that needs to look at some more people more than it needs more of that 5.3 ERA.

redsfan30
08-09-2004, 03:33 PM
Looks like Wilson's got some decent numbers and is a lefty. Moran doesn't have awful numbers but they aren't all world either but he seems to have some speed. Nine triples and 41 stolen bases speak for themselves. Cory Lidle had bad numbers and wasn't going to be here next year. Going from some numbers and outlooks that I've seen, maybe this isn't such a bad trade after all.

Stewie
08-09-2004, 03:33 PM
Neither Wilson nor Moran were top prospects. Moran is just a decent hitter with good speed, but the Phils already have a couple of them who they like a lot better (Bourn and Golson). Wilson could end up being a decent 4th or 5th starter, or a long man out of the pen. Neither one of these guys were considered to be part of the Phillies' plans in future years. I thought the Reds would have gotten some players closer to being major league ready than these two. I figured the Reds could have gotten someone like Keith Bucktrot or Seung Lee.

Eric_Davis
08-09-2004, 03:33 PM
No one special from what it sounds like. An OF named Moran and a pitcher named Joe Wilson. Both going to Dayton. Also a PTBNL.

Pays to have friends in the media sometimes. ;)

A moron and a guy named Joe?

OldXOhio
08-09-2004, 03:35 PM
Nothing spectacular, but at first glance it doesn't sound like too bad a deal in exchange for a free agent to be who has mostly struggled for the past couple of months.

Cory Lidle fills innings. He's a #4 at best, probably a #5 in a good rotation.

And he was going to be gone.

We'll see about this Wilson kid, but it sounds like he has a fair amount of upside. And he's a lefty.

Good job OB.

savafan
08-09-2004, 03:36 PM
I thought the Reds would have gotten some players closer to being major league ready than these two.

It's all part of DanO's plan

MikeS21
08-09-2004, 03:36 PM
Here is a direct quote from BA's Prospect Handbook concerning Moran:


Moran's build and hitting style remind some of Pokey Reese.

Here is another one:


He's (Moran) close to an 80 runner on the 20-80 scouting scale ...

remdog
08-09-2004, 03:37 PM
This could end up somewhat like the Walker trade where the most interesting player may be named 'Later'. :evil:

Rem

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:37 PM
Acevedo's tenure in the pen certainly was short.

Who comes up from the Bats to start on Saturday?

BigDog
08-09-2004, 03:39 PM
700 WLW saying that Josh Hancock will be moved to starter now.

Doc. Scott
08-09-2004, 03:39 PM
Acevedo's tenure in the pen certainly was short.

Who comes up from the Bats to start on Saturday?


I'm thinking Seth Etherton, if the rotation days work out right. Or maybe Matt Belisle, not that his recent performance has earned it.

KronoRed
08-09-2004, 03:40 PM
Acevedo's tenure in the pen certainly was short.

Who comes up from the Bats to start on Saturday?

Not Bong, he's hurt..what's left down there? :help:

airalex
08-09-2004, 03:40 PM
Maybe Luke Hudson will get a shot, and after that he may go to the pen

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:40 PM
700 WLW saying that Josh Hancock will be moved to starter now.

I wonder where that leaves Acevedo? Still in the pen or back in the rotation?

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 03:40 PM
This could end up somewhat like the Walker trade where the most interesting player may be named 'Later'. :evil:

Rem


Doubt it. The trade said that we got J.Wilson, Moran, and a PTBNL OR cash considerations. I wouldn't be looking for a PTBNL if I were you.

LvJ
08-09-2004, 03:40 PM
Why would anyone expect top prospects? This was a very fine trade. I wouldn't think we'd gotten this much. Good job DanO. And thank you for getting Lidle out of here. Hancock, show us whatchoo' got.

Rojo
08-09-2004, 03:40 PM
It looks like O'Brien is trying to fill holes in the organization with marginal prospects. Not a bad idea when dealing trash, but a picture is emerging of a GM who's afraid to take chances.

Doc. Scott
08-09-2004, 03:41 PM
Hudson starts tonight in AAA... he could be ready for Sunday without too much trouble, could he not?

TRF
08-09-2004, 03:42 PM
Brian Rose is a possibility, though i'd rather see Etherton. A strong finish to the season by seth could net the reds a decent return in the offseason.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:43 PM
Doubt it. The trade said that we got J.Wilson, Moran, and a PTBNL OR cash considerations. I wouldn't be looking for a PTBNL if I were you.

BA reported that the two PTBNLs are Narverson and Gall(#6). Narverson is a good prospect(#2 by BA) in a very thin Cardinal system.

I thought the Rockies did pretty well. For an overpaid and often injured 37 year old OF and they save almost $10M to boot.

Jr anyone?

IslandRed
08-09-2004, 03:43 PM
Since Lidle's numbers probably aren't good enough to net a compensatory draft pick for letting him walk this winter, I was comfortable trading him for whatever we could get, even if it was the proverbial bag of baseballs. If this was the best anyone was willing to give up for him -- and with a 5.32 ERA, I don't doubt it -- then take it and move on.

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 03:44 PM
700 WLW saying that Josh Hancock will be moved to starter now.


Oh, Lord. Give the Reds 3 options and they'll choose option 4 (the made up one) everytime.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:44 PM
Hudson starts tonight in AAA... he could be ready for Sunday without too much trouble, could he not?

His normal day would be Saturday, which is the day the Reds need a 5th starter.

Bill
08-09-2004, 03:44 PM
Remember that players coming back would have to pass waivers as well if they are on a 40 I believe. Thus the ptbnl could fall in that category to get around it so he may be decent though "or cash" suggests otherwise.

Not bad as I doubt they would have risked offering lidle to get the FA b pick or whatever he might be. I do hope they offer Wilson though and get the picks.

djsauter
08-09-2004, 03:45 PM
Are you all serious?

You make it sound like this new pitcher is going straight to Cincinnati and will do well. News flash, he's in Single A and his ERA is 3.64. 3.64 in A is not good for someone you want to come up soon. 3.64 in A means like 5.50 in MLB.

Bad bad.

MikeS21
08-09-2004, 03:45 PM
Here's what BA Prospect Handbook says about Joe Wilson:


Wilson works with a loose, quick, strong arm, and shows the makings of three average pitches. He throws his fastball in the 89-93 mph range with good life. He'll need to improve his secondary pitches, which are inconsistent. Wilson gets a hard downward bite on his slider when it's working, and has shown an excellent feel for his changeup, which he focused on in his first pro summer.

Moosie52
08-09-2004, 03:46 PM
I'm sure the Phillies wanted Paul Wilson instead of Lidle, so maybe this indicates that Paul won't be traded and will be re-signed. In which case, no matter how bad this trade turns out, it could have been worse.

LvJ
08-09-2004, 03:47 PM
Why is this a bad trade? Why do people care about Cory Lidle? :MandJ:

KronoRed
08-09-2004, 03:47 PM
I don't think this can turn out bad, Lidle was a goner, he's not very good, we got some body's for him

Good deal

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:48 PM
I'm sure the Phillies wanted Paul Wilson instead of Lidle, so maybe this indicates that Paul won't be traded and will be re-signed. In which case, no matter how bad this trade turns out, it could have been worse.

More likley that someone claimed Wilson on waivers or that DanO wasn't willing to deal him for marginal prospects.

Maybe he still hopes the fast fading Rangers(hammered 4 in a row by the O's) will come calling with the player(s) he wanted in the first place.

knuckler
08-09-2004, 03:49 PM
Good analysis, Doc.

Now, who slots into Lidle's old spot:

Acevedo back into the rotation to see if he just needed a rest?
Hudson up from AAA to see if he's really learned to throw strikes?
Rose up from AA to see if he's real -- requiring adding him to the roster?
Hancock back to a starting role, auditioning for 2005?
Etherton up from AAA, including adding him to the 40-man?

The thing I like is whoever goes into Lidle's slot gets some exposure in August instead of just September, when rosters are filled with AAA callups and most of the competition is playing out the string. The wheels continue to turn...

Stormy
08-09-2004, 03:51 PM
Nothing to be excited about, but also nothing to be upset about. Lidle had no present, and no future, with the Reds organization. He's done little this season to distinguish himself as someone worthy of significant trade value, and he's scheduled to walk at the end of the year. The return might be minimal, it might be more of the low minors manner of ultra longshots, but there is at least a glimmer of hope that an arm like Wilson can eventually be of some service at this level in the future.

Anyone can trade fringe MLB veterans for low minors afterthoughts. This doesn't hurt us but it's not the type of hard decision trades we needed to be making at the deadline(s).

P.S.: It is uncanny how the very people who loved DanO's acquisition of Lidle, are now equally excited about jettisoning him, and about the return landed for him. That's a prolonged honeymoon period in effect. What DanO needs is to focus on moving one of the high salary burdens, or "sacred cow" types in an effort to acquire MLB ready players in return, so we can start to rebuild the MLB pitching staff in earnest. Everything done until that is just spinning your wheels: What we need is a Bichette for reitsma deal right now, not another spree of "FAs to be for minor leaguers who never were" type trades.

savafan
08-09-2004, 03:51 PM
Do minor leaguers still have to pass through waivers to be traded?

The PTBNL may be someone who didn't pass through waivers and will be coming over in the offseason.

Aronchis
08-09-2004, 03:52 PM
Why didn't the Reds get Gavin Floyd for Lidle, I hate this team :mad: :mad:

;) ;)

FWIW, getting any lefty in the system is good. Sounds like Wilson will should make a good lefty reliever prospect.

Kc61
08-09-2004, 03:52 PM
Reds won't need to make a roster move. Riedling's return fills Lidle's slot. Hancock to the rotation, Riedling back in the pen.

O'Brien signed Lidle as his one off-season addition to the rotation. He was supposed to be an innings eater. He did ok for awhile but ultimately did poorly. Now O'Brien has converted him to two fair youngsters and cash or a PTBL.

I don't look at this series of moves as a great O'Brien success story.

savafan
08-09-2004, 03:53 PM
P.S.: It is uncanny how the very people who loved DanO's acquisition of Lidle, are now equally excited about jettisoning him, and about the return landed for him.

I know I was one of the first calling for DanO to go after Cory Lidle. I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:54 PM
Good analysis, Doc.

Now, who slots into Lidle's old spot:

Acevedo back into the rotation to see if he just needed a rest?
Hudson up from AAA to see if he's really learned to throw strikes?
Rose up from AA to see if he's real -- requiring adding him to the roster?
Hancock back to a starting role, auditioning for 2005?
Etherton up from AAA, including adding him to the 40-man?

The thing I like is whoever goes into Lidle's slot gets some exposure in August instead of just September, when rosters are filled with AAA callups and most of the competition is playing out the string. The wheels continue to turn...

At his point Rose and Etherton are bullpen fodder at best since they are both in their late 20's and have a series of arm injuries. Of course the same could be said of Hudson but he has the kind of stuff that Roase and Etherton just wish for.

Leave Acevedo in the pen, he might have a future there. Bring up Hudson because he is out of options after this year so they need to give him 6 weeks to find out about him. Leaving him in AAA the rest of the year won't do anything because he is going to have to get out ML hitters next year.

westofyou
08-09-2004, 03:55 PM
FWIW the lakewood park is a pitchers park - 916 - 1000

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:55 PM
Lidle was our "prize" offseason acquisition.

The proverbial "feather" in DanO's cap.

princeton
08-09-2004, 03:55 PM
if the goal was to convert guys that were pitching well but had no Reds future into prospects, then the Lidle deal was not at all like the Reitsma deal. Corey Lidle had much more value in June.

Lefty pitcher is the biggest organization need, and here's a guy.

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 03:57 PM
FWIW the lakewood park is a pitchers park - 916 - 1000


What do those numbers mean, woy. Sorry, hate to sound stupid, just want to be educated.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:57 PM
iLefty pitcher is the biggest organization need, and here's a guy.

Actually it is just pitcher. The Reds need arms.

There SP sucks and their pen is in shambles and they would love to trade Graves.

Maybe Gabe White could be the closer?

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:58 PM
What do those numbers mean, woy. Sorry, hate to sound stupid, just want to be educated.

Plays as a moderate pitchers park. 8.5% less runs scored there.

airalex
08-09-2004, 03:59 PM
FWIW the lakewood park is a pitchers park - 916 - 1000

That doesn't affect his K/BB ratio though.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 03:59 PM
Maybe Wade bought the "naked pictures" from Romano?

puca
08-09-2004, 04:01 PM
Personally I would rather Hudson cut his teeth in the bullpen for the rest of this year and into next. I would like to see him do it at the major league level starting very soon. This season is over so don't overwork Hudson, he actually might have a decent future either as a starter or more likely a setup man/closer. If a starter is needed I would use Etherton, a pitcher whose ceiling is probably swing man/weak 5th starter.

westofyou
08-09-2004, 04:01 PM
What do those numbers mean, woy. Sorry, hate to sound stupid, just want to be educated.

1000 is the mean with 916 being below the mean - Hence pitching friendly.

Makes your hitters look worse and pitchers better, on the surface, then there are the spilts that break it down even more.

That league has 16 different parks 1/2 are hitters 1/2 pitchers.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 04:01 PM
That doesn't affect his K/BB ratio though.

it doesn't.

Hard to say what effect it has without further investigation.

GABP plays as a moderate pitchers park. It also plays as a slight HR park. One would think it is a combo of the high infield grass and the short porch in right.

jmcclain19
08-09-2004, 04:01 PM
Good analysis Doc.

Two things worth noting.

Moran was the Phils 5th round pick last season. Wilson was the 13th round pick.

So it's important to remember that both are in their first season post rookie ball. And putting up respectable, if not great numbers.

This, for a pitcher who was arguably one of the worst starters in the NL season, is a decent return.

Puffy
08-09-2004, 04:03 PM
Lefty pitcher is the biggest organization need, and here's a guy.

Does that mean you like this trade? And if so, why? Because the Reds need lefties or because you think this particular lefty has a future?

I was never a fan of Lidle and am so not sad to see him go - but the return seems to me to be minor league fodder, kinda a way to fill up minor league rosters and nothing else. Of course I am only basing that on the numbers I see from them, but neither Wilson (23 and in low A) nor Moran (no power, no walks, steals bases at 72% clip) impresses me much intially.

princeton
08-09-2004, 04:03 PM
Actually it is just pitcher

actually, it's not ;)

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 04:04 PM
1000 is the mean with 916 being below the mean - Hence pitching friendly.

Makes your hitters look worse and pitchers better, on the surface, then there are the spilts that break it down even more.

That league has 16 different parks 1/2 are hitters 1/2 pitchers.

Thanks westofyou. I was thinking it was something like that but wanted to be sure. Can you get splits from Single A teams on the internet? If so, where?

traderumor
08-09-2004, 04:05 PM
Perhaps the Lidle experience didn't just teach a few Zoners a lesson, but also our GM. Gotta find that silver lining somewhere, I guess.

Chip R
08-09-2004, 04:06 PM
I would imagine Javier Valentin is very upset by this news. ;)

knuckler
08-09-2004, 04:06 PM
Anyone can trade fringe MLB veterans for low minors afterthoughts. This doesn't hurt us but it's not the type of hard decision trades we needed to be making at the deadline(s) .

Except for Kazmir, that's the only kind of prospect ANYBODY was exchanging at the deadline. You take what you can get. Remember that Edwin Encarnacion was considered a low minors afterthought in the trade of fringe MLB veterans Rob Bell-for-Ruben Mateo. With young pitchers especially there's a strong case to be made for finding quality through quantity.

traderumor
08-09-2004, 04:07 PM
I would imagine Javier Valentin is very upset by this news. ;)
Shoot, Chip, we could have shipped 'em together. Valentin could've challenged Lieberthal. Another opportunity missed to rid our roster of garbage.

REDREAD
08-09-2004, 04:08 PM
I agree with both Stormy and princeton.

If the plan all along was turn Lidle into prospects, we waited much too long.
I'm not going to cry over losing Lidle, but this trade really doesn't move us
forward at all.. In other words, another :zzz: move

If DanO was willing to lose his "veteran leadership" in the rotation, why not
trade Wilson and keep Lidle around as the inning eater? Maybe he thinks Wilson
is a keepr, or he'll get more for Wilson in August.

LvJ
08-09-2004, 04:10 PM
I would imagine Javier Valentin is very upset by this news. ;) See, that makes this trade even better!

savafan
08-09-2004, 04:11 PM
Maybe you can't blame DanO for this. Perhaps the plan was to try and get Lidle to fall down to where Texas could trade for him and the Phillies jumped in and claimed him and this deal was worked out. Just a thought.

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 04:14 PM
Maybe you can't blame DanO for this. Perhaps the plan was to try and get Lidle to fall down to where Texas could trade for him and the Phillies jumped in and claimed him and this deal was worked out. Just a thought.


If everyone in the Reds front office was given excuses and the benefit of the doubt on every move, we'd get absolutely no where. Until I see DanO do something drastic (like clear payroll by parting with Graves, Casey, Griffey) or get a very high grade prospect (like a Claussen) in trade, I'm going to keep considering him a bad GM for this franchise.

jmcclain19
08-09-2004, 04:15 PM
Except for Kazmir, that's the only kind of prospect ANYBODY was exchanging at the deadline. You take what you can get. Remember that Edwin Encarnacion was considered a low minors afterthought in the trade of fringe MLB veterans Rob Bell-for-Ruben Mateo. With young pitchers especially there's a strong case to be made for finding quality through quantity.

Excellent post knuckler.

RosieRed
08-09-2004, 04:16 PM
Does that mean you like this trade? And if so, why? Because the Reds need lefties or because you think this particular lefty has a future?

I was never a fan of Lidle and am so not sad to see him go - but the return seems to me to be minor league fodder, kinda a way to fill up minor league rosters and nothing else. Of course I am only basing that on the numbers I see from them, but neither Wilson (23 and in low A) nor Moran (no power, no walks, steals bases at 72% clip) impresses me much intially.

You weren't addressing me with this, but I'm going to answer anyway. :)

I like the trade, not so much because of the return, but just because Lidle wasn't going to be here next year, was not doing well, and so why spend any more time with him? Trading him opens a spot for someone else, and we need to see what someone else can do. Even if that someone else is Hancock, I'd rather give him a chance than to keep running Lidle out there.

As for the actual return, I don't think it's that bad. You never know which prospects are going to turn into something, and we all know we need some pitching. Wilson could turn into a lefty reliever and be with the club for a few years; that wouldn't be bad at all. Should neither prospect amount to anything, at the least we're saving a little money by not paying Lidle the rest of the year.

savafan
08-09-2004, 04:16 PM
If everyone in the Reds front office was given excuses and the benefit of the doubt on every move, we'd get absolutely no where. Until I see DanO do something drastic (like clear payroll by parting with Graves, Casey, Griffey) or get a very high grade prospect (like a Claussen) in trade, I'm going to keep considering him a bad GM for this franchise.

I wasn't saying DanO is a good GM, or a bad GM for that matter. All I was saying is that we don't know that there wasn't something else in the plans here and the Phillies stepped in and blocked it.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 04:18 PM
DanO doesn't have much to hang his hat on to this point. Last years draft, even with the blowup of Wagner, still is looking good with the pitching of Pauly and Gardner. I think DanO's first draft, heavy on HS pitchers is highly questionable for the future.

His major trade is dealing away Reitsma and his major free agent acquisition was Lidle. Rather unimpressive so far.

He can salvage it by clearing some payroll(does he have the cajones to trade Casey) in the fofseason and locking Dunn up for 4-5 years.

Personally I am not hopeful, so prove me wrong DanO.

Kc61
08-09-2004, 04:22 PM
This trade deadline, isn't it funny that the only two guys O'Brien traded were the two pitchers he acquired himself earlier in the year, Jones and Lidle? Guy has been GM for a year and his moves are cutting loose his own few pickups, while holding onto Jimbo's guys (except Reitsma).

princeton
08-09-2004, 04:25 PM
Does that mean you like this trade? And if so, why? Because the Reds need lefties or because you think this particular lefty has a future?
.

it means at least he's not righthanded. A finesse RHPer in A ball would really be valueless.

But even need is secondary here. The big part of the deal is that we just saved $900,000 or whatever we still owed Lidle.

Stormy
08-09-2004, 04:26 PM
You weren't addressing me with this, but I'm going to answer anyway. :)

I like the trade, not so much because of the return, but just because Lidle wasn't going to be here next year, was not doing well, and so why spend any more time with him? Trading him opens a spot for someone else, and we need to see what someone else can do. Even if that someone else is Hancock, I'd rather give him a chance than to keep running Lidle out there.

As for the actual return, I don't think it's that bad. You never know which prospects are going to turn into something, and we all know we need some pitching. Wilson could turn into a lefty reliever and be with the club for a few years; that wouldn't be bad at all. Should neither prospect amount to anything, at the least we're saving a little money by not paying Lidle the rest of the year.

That's a nice post, and it reflects my take on the transaction as well. However, I also share Puffy's (and Redleader's) perspective, which is that moves like this are peripheral.

The Reds are a team which will likely need to find 4-5 viable major league ready starting and bullpen arms before next season, if they are to improve upon arguably the league's pitching staff. In DanO's brief tenure we have yet to see him bring in anyone who can fill even one of those spots by 2005. Likewise, we have a number of high salaried players (scheduled to make even more in 2005), having fine seasons, who have not been successfully moved (or to our knowledge even shopped). Perhaps he'll manage to move a few of these in the offseason, but the early tendency is towards status quo stagnation in dealing with the bigger issues. If we don't move any of the aforementioned, then we head into 2005, again, with over *half* of our payroll going towards 3-4 players, with increases due to others, and with no extra payroll room earmarked to address the real areas of need on the pitching staff. That is a scenario I don't like, nor can I fathom how he has failed to move guys like Wilson (or even Lidle at a time when his value was higher than it is now).

So, I agree with you about this trade. And maybe my obsessive focus on the bigger picture isn't appropriate within a thread where I think DanO just made a decent run-of-the-mill move. However, I can't help but think that the Reds have numerous legitimate trade commodities, necessities and areas of need, and that DanO isn't addressing any of them, *yet.*

corkedbat
08-09-2004, 04:28 PM
With Hancock evidently sliding into Lidle's spot, I'd like to see Hudson get a shot at Acevedo's turn when they need a 5th starter, keep Acevedo in the pen and release TVP. I think if you prepare Acevedo for fulltime relief next season and let him build up the MPH's on his fastball he could be one solution to the several bullpen ?'s we have.

Is it too late for DO to throw in Graves and let them keep Senor Cash? :lol:

PuffyPig
08-09-2004, 04:29 PM
This trade deadline, isn't it funny that the only two guys O'Brien traded were the two pitchers he acquired himself earlier in the year, Jones and Lidle? Guy has been GM for a year and his moves are cutting loose his own few pickups, while holding onto Jimbo's guys (except Reitsma).

Well, considering that both are FA's after the season, what's surprising about that?

We have picked up a great return for both Jones and Lidle, considering how badly Lidle has pitched. And, i assume the PTBNL, is a 40 roster guy who has to clear waivers. It could be worth something.

princeton
08-09-2004, 04:29 PM
with this trade, the Reds went from insisting on Hancock-types (major league "ready") 10 days ago to accepting guys that are a long way off

the price on LaRue, Wilson and Jimenez is surely a lot higher.

jmcclain19
08-09-2004, 04:30 PM
Funny comment from Jayson Stark about the trade. That the Phillies had to do something, to have someone fill that fifth starter role, but it was debatable whether or not Lidle was someone who could do that :lol:

Also said Pat Burrell is out for the season. Not a good day if your a Phillies fan

airalex
08-09-2004, 04:31 PM
Funny comment from Jayson Stark about the trade. That the Phillies had to do something, to have someone fill that fifth starter role, but it was debatable whether or not Lidle was someone who could do that :lol:

Also said Pat Burrell is out for the season. Not a good day if your a Phillies fan

I thought he was part of the trade :mhcky21:

princeton
08-09-2004, 04:33 PM
I thought he was part of the trade :mhcky21:

right, in a couple of days after he clears waivers

corkedbat
08-09-2004, 04:34 PM
I thought he was part of the trade :mhcky21:

He is, but he's going on the DL so he has to be listed as a PTBNL until he comes off. :mhcky21:

Cali Red
08-09-2004, 04:40 PM
My question is what spin will O' Brien have on this trade? Was it that he is giving up on the rest of the sesaon (Wild Card), and continuing to build towards the future, or was it like the previous Philly trade where he said they weren't going to trade Jones but Philadelphia made them an over-whelming offer?

Is this one of those over-wheming offers?

RosieRed
08-09-2004, 04:44 PM
The Reds are a team which will likely need to find 4-5 viable major league ready starting and bullpen arms before next season, if they are to improve upon arguably the league's pitching staff. In DanO's brief tenure we have yet to see him bring in anyone who can fill even one of those spots by 2005.

I hear what you're saying, and I don't really disagree. But, my jury is still out on Bong and Hancock -- I wouldn't at all be surprised if Bong is in the bullpen next year, and I think he could do okay there. The same goes for Hancock, though I know less about him. So, potentially, those are two arms for next year. Starting pitching ... well, that's a whole other story.


So, I agree with you about this trade. And maybe my obsessive focus on the bigger picture isn't appropriate within a thread where I think DanO just made a decent run-of-the-mill move. However, I can't help but think that the Reds have numerous legitimate trade commodities, necessities and areas of need, and that DanO isn't addressing any of them, *yet.*

Nothing wrong with focusing on the bigger picture, especially when the bigger picture doesn't look so bright right now. Compared to the bigger picture, this trade is definitely minutia.

traderumor
08-09-2004, 04:45 PM
It was a trade of, for sure, nothing for maybe, possibly, keep your fingers and toes crossed, rub your lucky rabbit's foot, something. So essentially, we went from 0% future help in Lidle to .001% chance of help from either of these prospects. Not exactly a Jefferson's "moving on up" move, is it?

PuffyPig
08-09-2004, 04:46 PM
with this trade, the Reds went from insisting on Hancock-types (major league "ready") 10 days ago to accepting guys that are a long way off

.

Lidle has pitcher poorly all season. We had to get what we could. These may not be top ceiling propsects, but the more propsects you have, the better chance that some will turn out OK.

There are a number of Reds who have turned out OK, but where not top ceiling propsects. Graves was not the centerpiece of the Smiley trade, Damien Jackson was.

To sugggest that the OF we got, at this stage of his career, is a "Romano clone" is unfair. If he keeps developing each year, he may well turn out to be a fine OF in the majors. The odds are stacked against every minor leaguer, so quanity of propsects is useful. Anyone who really thinks DanO should have held out for Floyd is unrealistic.

look at it this way. lidle's good performance in Colorado probably is responsible for this trade.

Unassisted
08-09-2004, 04:46 PM
This trade deadline, isn't it funny that the only two guys O'Brien traded were the two pitchers he acquired himself earlier in the year, Jones and Lidle? Gabe White better keep his suitcase packed. ;)

danforsman
08-09-2004, 04:48 PM
Of the 10-20 transactions that OB supervises in the next several years, I am willing to predict that this will be in the bottom quarter of moves relative to their importance. The Reds lost a veteran soft-tossing RHP with a 5+ ERA who was not going to be back next season. To me, there's a case to be made that cutting Lidle (and Van Poppel, for that matter) immediately with the pure motivation of opening up auditioning roster spots for Hudson, Etherton, Belisle, Rose, etc. is a worthy concept. Getting a couple of prospects, no matter their 'ceilings', is even better.

creek14
08-09-2004, 04:51 PM
Well you know the season stinks when a Lidle traded for nothing thread has over 100 replies in less than 2 hours.

Chip R
08-09-2004, 05:04 PM
Well you know the season stinks when a Lidle traded for nothing thread has over 100 replies in less than 2 hours.
Hell, if DanO traded a case of Skyline for some cheese steak sandwiches the thread would have over 100 replies. ;)

Kc61
08-09-2004, 05:06 PM
While I find it funny that O'Brien keeps cutting loose the few guys he just signed in his own "administration," I do think this move was wise in light of Lidle's poor performance.

The Reds need "cap space." They must sign real pitchers who cost money. At this stage, I would have given Lidle away to save the remainder of his salary. The money can and hopefully will be put to use in the off-season. Whatever these youngsters provide is an added plus.

The real test of O'Brien will be this off-season. He better do something.

Rojo
08-09-2004, 05:09 PM
I expect to see a lot more August ABs for Vanderwal.

Chip R
08-09-2004, 05:11 PM
I expect to see a lot more August ABs for Vanderwal.
Why do you say that?

nottelling
08-09-2004, 05:13 PM
Let me just make sure we got it right....
Acevedo was brought to the bullpen, and the Reds are left with a four man rotation.
Lidle was traded, and the Reds were left with a three man rotation.

What's next? Danny Graves a starter? Oh right, that's been done, and failed.

In all seriousness, what's gonna be?

BoydsOfSummer
08-09-2004, 05:14 PM
BA's prospect handbook had the Phils system ranked 21st.

We now have their:
11th ranked-Anderson Machado
18th ranked-Josh Hancock
30th ranked-Joe Wilson
15th ranked-Javon Moran

Reds were ranked 26th overall.

Reds 11th-Miguel Perez
Reds 18th-Thomas Pauly
Reds15th-Rainer Feliz
Reds 30th-Kenny Lewis

StillFunkyB
08-09-2004, 05:16 PM
Hell, if DanO traded a case of Skyline for some cheese steak sandwiches the thread would have over 100 replies. ;)

I'd do that deal!! Now if it was some Goldstar, I might think about that first...

I really don't think this was a bad move, your getting something for basically nothing. Sure these guys might not ever play a single game here in the Queen City, but then again you never know. I do agree Dan's moves have been kinda boring, but what do you expect? There is only 1 leather pants, and like has been stated before, I think most of us are still going thru Bowden withdrawl...

MikeS21
08-09-2004, 05:17 PM
What is really humorous is all the hue and cry for DanO to do something, and the moment he does it, the hue and cry is:Why didn't he do something ELSE?

I'm not sure why we keep putting these "dealines" on OB to produce or else. It took Jim Bowden 10+ years to make this mess and we can't even give OB ten months to fix it.

Do you want to know WHY OB doesn't trade Casey, Graves, or Junior?

1) NO team in baseball is going to take on Danny Graves. Even as much money as Steinbrenner wasts, I bet he refuses to waste money on Danny Graves.

2) NO team is willing to take on Junior's contract given his health history. (Beside the fact that every time Junior is mentioned in a trade rumor, half od RedsZone goes into a rant)

3) The jury is still out on Casey. Is this the real Casey or a career year?

I know OB is supposed to be a salesman, but there are just some cars that a used car salesman can't sell.

StillFunkyB
08-09-2004, 05:19 PM
Don't forget we had Reggie Taylor, and he was a first rounder!!!

:mhcky21:

Rojo
08-09-2004, 05:20 PM
Why do you say that?

Because DanO signed him.

Chip R
08-09-2004, 05:25 PM
Because DanO signed him.
Ahhhhhh.

Stewie
08-09-2004, 05:26 PM
I wasn't saying DanO is a good GM, or a bad GM for that matter. All I was saying is that we don't know that there wasn't something else in the plans here and the Phillies stepped in and blocked it.

The genius Ed Wade was just doing an interview on sports writer's type shoe here in Philadelphia. He said that the Phils and Reds were in negotiations for Lidle before the deadline, but the Reds were still in contention, so they didn't want to give up Lidle. I guess they felt that they were officially out of it now, placed Lidle on waivers, and the Phillies put a claim on him. So it doesn't sound like there was anything more to this deal (like other teams involved or anything). Wade also said that during their original discussions involving Lidle before the deadline, the Reds said they wanted "major league ready" players. Then they went through some heavy negotiations after the Phils claimed Lidle and finally came to an agreement before the 1 pm deadline today.

Oh, and when I used the term "genius" to describe Wade, I was being sarcastic. Just making sure that was clear. :thumbup:

smith288
08-09-2004, 05:36 PM
Even I could tell the Reds were out of contention before the deadline.

What were the discussions like before the deadline? Thats what I'd like to know.

RosieRed
08-09-2004, 05:36 PM
What's the 1 p.m. deadline today he's referring to?

Chip R
08-09-2004, 05:37 PM
What's the 1 p.m. deadline today he's referring to?
As far as I can figure it would be a deadline to do a deal or have the Reds pull him back or let the Phils have him for nothing.

Eric_Davis
08-09-2004, 05:38 PM
It was the, "trade Lidle before he has another bad outing" deadline.

airalex
08-09-2004, 05:40 PM
It was the, "trade Lidle before he has another bad outing" deadline.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

RosieRed
08-09-2004, 05:48 PM
As far as I can figure it would be a deadline to do a deal or have the Reds pull him back or let the Phils have him for nothing.

Ah, that would make sense. Thanks. :)

Terry
08-09-2004, 05:53 PM
Lidle got traded for a Moran? That figures. :lol:


Hopefully it's Donnie Moran. That guy is a proven winner. ;)

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 05:56 PM
Hopefully it's Donnie Moran. That guy is a proven winner. ;)

I wish it was Erin Moran, that way we could have a Joanie Loves Chachi bobblehead giveaway! :MandJ:

Falls City Beer
08-09-2004, 05:57 PM
I feel about this trade the way that I did about the Jones for "who" and "what" trade at the deadline: never trade major leaguers for A-ballers unless they're absolute blue-chip prospects (these two are crapola). Otherwise, all you're doing is unloading salary and undercutting your major league roster for several starts. So the Reds saved $500,000; that's the extent of this trade. Great. :rolleyes:

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 05:59 PM
So the Reds saved $500,000; that's the extent of this trade. Great. :rolleyes:

Hey, that's $500,000 that they can write a check to Dr. Kremcheck for in the future.

Chip R
08-09-2004, 06:08 PM
You know, the best news about this is that the Reds can sign Lidle as a free agent now. :D

Rocket_Fuel
08-09-2004, 06:26 PM
Considering the way Lidle was pitching and the fact he wasn't coming back, this was a good deal. Why would people expect major league ready, or near major league ready players for a guy who, at best, was a #5 pitcher this year? As for the Reds undercutting the major league roster and not trading for A ballers, Lidle was KILLING this starting rotation. He had a decent start against Colorado, but the guy has been horrible, nobody really wanted him, and we weren't going to get a decent major leaguer for him. I think O'Brien did a pretty good job. Now he needs to re-sign Paul Wilson. Paul Wilson, Aaron Harang and Brandon Claussen is a pretty good nucleus for a solid rotation next year. Add the pieces from there.

Red Leader
08-09-2004, 06:30 PM
Now he needs to re-sign Paul Wilson. Paul Wilson, Aaron Harang and Brandon Claussen is a pretty good nucleus for a solid rotation next year. Add the pieces from there.

The problem with that is that if you resign Paul Wilson, the "pieces" you add from there will be $1.0M filler like Lidle was = .500 team, 4th place finishes. Had enough of that.

PuffyPig
08-09-2004, 06:33 PM
I feel about this trade the way that I did about the Jones for "who" and "what" trade at the deadline: never trade major leaguers for A-ballers unless they're absolute blue-chip prospects (these two are crapola). Otherwise, all you're doing is unloading salary and undercutting your major league roster for several starts. So the Reds saved $500,000; that's the extent of this trade. Great. :rolleyes:

The Astros got an A baller, non stud prospect for Larry Anderson some years back. He turned out OK.

If you consider Machado and Hancock as "who" and "what" you need to bone up on your information about other team's propsects. They were certainly well known to those fans that follow the minor leagues.

And id you think that guys like Jones and Lidle (FA's to be who we literally rescued from the scrap heap) will bring blue chip propsects, then thing again. People said the same thing last year about Harang, and he's doing pretty good.

buckeyenut
08-09-2004, 06:35 PM
This move theoretically allows you to offer Paul Wilson 4.5M instead of 4M on a contract because you saved about 500K by dealing Lidle to PHI.

Or Matt Clement 10M instead of 9.5M

:)

jmcclain19
08-09-2004, 06:38 PM
Quotes from the Phillies.com story


"With Cory, you have a guy who has command of four pitches and the key for him is keeping the ball down," Jones said. "When Cory's on, he's a poor man's Greg Maddux. Cory's key in Cincinnati was keeping the ball down, and that should help us here [at Citizens Bank Park]."


"We've added a veteran starting pitcher and it's something we tried to do previously," Wade said. "Lidle is someone who can throw four or five different pitches and he keeps the ball down low in the strike zone. He's a pitcher who throws a lot of innings and get us deep into games. He's thrown at least five innings every time this year."

From the CincyReds.com story


"In talking internally with our baseball and field staff, we had the feeling that it was unlikely that Cory Lidle was going to sign with us next season," said Cincinnati general manager Dan O'Brien, citing the team's policy not to negotiate contracts during the season.

"Partially, it was an internal evaluation by our baseball operation and field staff," O'Brien added. "Cory's agent called and I explained our policy about not talking about contracts during the season. He was respectful of that policy, but shared items that led us to believe it was unlikely that Cory would sign with us."

Right-hander Josh Hancock will serve as Lidle's replacement in the Reds' starting rotation. The 26-year-old Hancock is 2-1 this season with a 8.49 ERA.

"One thing that this allows us to do is move Josh Hancock into the rotation," said O'Brien. "He's been in our bullpen because we did not have a place for him in our rotation. Talking with Dave Miley and Don Gullett, they're both excited to give Josh a chance and see what he has."

An injury to Philadelphia starter Kevin Millwood, who was placed on the 15-day DL with acute tendinitis in his right elbow, necessitated the deal for the Phillies.

"With the injury to Kevin Millwood, the Phillies were agressively pursuing [Lidle]," said O'Brien. "We were pleased to add talented players with bright futures."

LvJ
08-09-2004, 06:55 PM
...And the fact that Cory sucks. Good job DanO and Thank you.

jmcclain19
08-09-2004, 06:57 PM
O'Brien on the two newest Reds


Moran, a 21-year-old center fielder, was Philadelphia's fourth-round pick in the 2003 First-Year Player Draft. Last season, he led the New York-Penn League with 27 stolen bases for Batavia. He entered this season as the 15th-best prospect in the Phillies organization and has amassed 39 stolen bases with Class A Lakewood of the South Atlantic League.

O'Brien assessed Moran saying, "He's a true center fielder and a speed player. He probably has more speed than anyone in our organization right now. He's a tools player, but he also has good baseball skills."

The 22-year-old Wilson, also a member of Philadelphia's minor league squad at Lakewood, was a 13th-round pick in 2003 and is 4-7 with a 3.64 ERA in 19 starts and five relief appearances this season.

"He has a good arm," O'Brien said. "He's had success in the Phillies' organization and we project him as a starter in the future."

Moran and Wilson both will be assigned to Class A Dayton.

oregonred
08-09-2004, 07:04 PM
Well you know the season stinks when a Lidle traded for nothing thread has over 100 replies in less than 2 hours.

Glad to see such a deep assessment of the trade return. Have you ever heard or seen either one of these guys? (No and neither have I) On paper they at least look a little interesting, but I digress.

So this means Lidle cleared waivers all the way to the Phillies. That gives you an assessment of his curent trade value.

Stomry -- How do you propose the Reds unload KGJ and Graves?

Dan
08-09-2004, 07:17 PM
What's it say about your GM when you're trying to win by trading for pieces of the Cinci pitching staff?

Tony Cloninger
08-09-2004, 07:20 PM
It says that Lidle sucks and his leaving even for nada is addition by subtraction.

We did not just trade Greg Maddux here.................has that point not been brought out yet?

This is Tim Pugh/Kevin Jarvis type. Big deal.

CougarQuest
08-09-2004, 07:40 PM
A few thoughts

When I heard that Lidle was traded, I figured it was for a few prospects. I just didn't expect them to all be low A players. I figured we'd get a double A in there.

If what Wade is saying is true .... Just what was O'Brien thinking before the deadline that he didn't want to trade Lidle? Do you think Wade upped his ante from the trading deadline offer since Millwood went to the DL?

Do you think it's a PTBNL or Cash? Anyone know of any AA'ers on the Philly's 40?

This trade sure makes the Jones trade look very big on the Reds behalf, if there isn't a PTBNL who is further up on the evolution chain.

Krusty
08-09-2004, 07:52 PM
If one player out of the Jones and Lidle deals makes the major leagues, these deals will be a success.

The Reds saved alittle money and got some young players who might be a factor in two or three years. But more importantly, the Reds got something for two players who weren't probably in the Reds plans for the 2005 season.

Hoosier Red
08-09-2004, 07:59 PM
Someone mentioned the deal passing all the way to Philadelphia.

To give you an idea of teams who passed on Lidle.


San Diego, 1GB
New York Mets(who admittedly got their pitchers allready)
LA Dodgers..
The last one really strikes me, if there is one team that has a absolute need for an emergency starter to last 3 maybe 4 weeks it's the Dodgers and they passed.

What the Reds got back from Philly may not be much, but realize Philly is only making this move to make it look like they're trying.
This move does NOTHING for Philly.

wheels
08-09-2004, 08:01 PM
The big thing for me is...NO MORE CORY LIDLE.

I hope we've learned how useless it is to throw money at guys like this.

Cory Lidle was a waste and I think the Reds are lucky that they were able to save what little money they could on that stinker.

I won't miss him in the least, and if either of these players they got in return show up in the bigs...Well then we've got a nice layer of icing on this cake.

It would be fun to see Kenny Lewis and Javon Moran in a foot race, I'll tel you what.

princeton
08-09-2004, 08:17 PM
The Astros got an A baller, non stud prospect for Larry Anderson some years back. He turned out OK.

If you consider Machado and Hancock as "who" and "what" you need to bone up on your information about other team's propsects. They were certainly well known to those fans that follow the minor leagues.

Jeff Bagwell was traded when he was in AA. I recall seeing him in New Britain that year and thinking, whoa, a little more muscle and those balls will be gone. IIRC he led the AA's in hitting that year and was named best third sacker in all of AA too

maybe if you'd boned up on your Bagwell a little...

CougarQuest
08-09-2004, 08:19 PM
Does it really make sense that the Reds get major league ready Josh Hancock and AAA ready Anderson Mercado for 36 year old relief pitcher Todd Jones and single A outfielder Brad Correll, and then 9 days later the Reds only get low A pitcher Joe Wilson and low A outfielder Jacon Moran and cash for 32 year old starting pitcher Cory Lidle from the same organization?

The more I think about this, the more I think we are going to get someone off the 40 from the Phils.

creek14
08-09-2004, 08:20 PM
Glad to see such a deep assessment of the trade return.
Yeah like every other post on this board has been deep and insightful. Including all of yours.

I've spent tens of thousands of dollars going to games the past few seasons as this team has been "rebuilding". Now we get two more A players. Oh boy. Maybe now I can spend thousands more waiting for these guys to pan out.

Sorry (well not really) if my level of excitment over this trade isn't up to your standards.

wheels
08-09-2004, 08:20 PM
maybe if you'd boned up on your Bagwell a little...


I think we'll leave that to someone else thank you very much... :lol: :MandJ:

Get it?

He said...Aw forget it! :MandJ:

Stewie
08-09-2004, 08:24 PM
What's it say about your GM when you're trying to win by trading for pieces of the Cinci pitching staff?

Well, as a Phillies fan, it's pretty depressing. Of course, I've known for a few years now that Ed Wade is a putz. His complete and utter botching of the Schilling deal (which alone should have been enough to get him canned), and then the Rolen deal pretty much sealed it. Then, if you look at the trades he has made in-season over the years that he has been GM, it all adds up. When the best trade you make in-season is acquiring Robert Person for Paul Spoljaric, well, that's pretty pathetic. When it was posted here earlier today that the Reds and Phillies were about to make a deal (posted by Will, was it?), I knew that had Cory Lidle written all over it. So to answer your question, it says that our GM is an idiot. :thumbdn:

RedsRule30
08-09-2004, 08:30 PM
At least the Phillies GM is trying. He gave up mostly junk prospects for Todd Jones and Cory Lidle anyways.

REDREAD
08-09-2004, 08:33 PM
.

But even need is secondary here. The big part of the deal is that we just saved $900,000 or whatever we still owed Lidle.

How could I forget about that? You got a good point there. Allen probably revised his attendence projections for the rest of the year after the recent losing skid :rolleyes:

Too bad we don't have any late round reach draft picks to spend that money on.

Stewie
08-09-2004, 08:33 PM
A few thoughts

When I heard that Lidle was traded, I figured it was for a few prospects. I just didn't expect them to all be low A players. I figured we'd get a double A in there.

If what Wade is saying is true .... Just what was O'Brien thinking before the deadline that he didn't want to trade Lidle? Do you think Wade upped his ante from the trading deadline offer since Millwood went to the DL?

Do you think it's a PTBNL or Cash? Anyone know of any AA'ers on the Philly's 40?

This trade sure makes the Jones trade look very big on the Reds behalf, if there isn't a PTBNL who is further up on the evolution chain.

The only guys on the Phillies' 40 man roster that have not seen any major league action this season are Keith Bucktrot, Eric Junge, Juan Richardson, Jorge Padilla, Ryan Howard, Michel Hernandez, and Franklin Perez. I'm not 100% sure of all the rules involved in PTBNL, but I know that a guy can't have pitched in the league that he is being traded to, so that would mean that neither Geoff Geary nor Elizardo Ramirez could be the PTBNL, since both have spent time in the majors. My guess is it would be Junge or Hernandez, or cash. Although, Junge is injured and has been for most of the season, so I don't know how that would factor into things. I'll have to get a refresher in all the rules going into naming a PTBNL.

DeadRedinCT
08-09-2004, 08:35 PM
Do you think it's a PTBNL or Cash? Anyone know of any AA'ers on the Philly's 40?

A player currently on the DL could be a PTBNL.

Ryan Madson is on the DL... :jester:

westofyou
08-09-2004, 08:46 PM
Do you think it's a PTBNL or Cash? Anyone know of any AA'ers on the Philly's 40?

Cash if he tanks, Reds pick of a player (probably already agreed on) if he succeeds.

At least that's my prediction.

Stewie
08-09-2004, 08:50 PM
Cash if he tanks, Reds pick of a player (probably already agreed on) if he succeeds.

At least that's my prediction.

I thought it would be the Phillies that would get to choose a player. My belief was that when the deal is made, the teams agree on a list of several players for the PTBNL, then the Phillies would choose later who they decide to give up. I may be wrong on that, though.

edit for spelling, but my grammar is still poor here. Sorry

westofyou
08-09-2004, 08:57 PM
I thought it would be the Phillies that would get to choose a player. My belief was that when the deal is made, the teasm agree on a list of several players for the PTBNL, then the Phillies would choose later who they decide to give up. I may be wrong on that, though.


Could be, probably is a list already.

Hopefully he'll do something and the Reds can get a body.

Word on the street is if the Reds end up getting cash they plan on spending it on this poster to hang in the clubhouse.

http://www.agingwell.state.ny.us/fitness/articles/gifs/hamstrin.gif

CougarQuest
08-09-2004, 09:00 PM
I was looking at the Phillies 40 and came up with (which, turns out, pretty much sounds like what Stewie said)

Eric Junge: 27 year old righthanded pitcher with major league experience. Starter or reliever. Had shoulder surgery last year.

Juan Richardson: 25 year old 3B who had a severe ankle sprain last year. Looks like this guy has some serious power potential.

Franklin Perez: 26 year old righthanded pitcher who missed all of last year with elbow surgery.

I think it would be a coup if O'Brien were able to get 21 year old right handed pitcher Elizardo Ramierz or 23 year old right handed pitcher Keith Bucktrot.

Stewie
08-09-2004, 09:04 PM
I was looking at the Phillies 40 and came up with (which, turns out, pretty much sounds like what Stewie said)

Eric Junge: 27 year old righthanded pitcher with major league experience. Starter or reliever. Had shoulder surgery last year.

Juan Richardson: 25 year old 3B who had a severe ankle sprain last year. Looks like this guy has some serious power potential.

Franklin Perez: 26 year old righthanded pitcher who missed all of last year with elbow surgery.

I think it would be a coup if O'Brien were able to get 21 year old right handed pitcher Elizardo Ramierz or 23 year old right handed pitcher Keith Bucktrot.

Ramirez pitched in the majors this season, so he can't be the PTBNL. I know the rule for that says that a PTBNL may not have played in the league he is traded into in that season. Bucktrot is too highly regarded for them just to give him away (although it wouldn't be a first for Wade to give away guys that have potential). Perez just got promoted, and has been playing well. My guess will be Junge. He isn't very good.

CougarQuest
08-09-2004, 09:08 PM
MLB has Junge as 2-0, 2.21 ERA for his MLB career, 10 G, 1 GS, 20.1 IP, 6 BB with 16 K's.

Stewie,
Are you sure about that PTBNL clause? I've never heard of it (which, in reality, doesn't mean anything)

LexingtonRedsFan
08-09-2004, 09:08 PM
I listened to O'brien on Furmans show (thankfully he was on vacation), but the impression I got listening to him was that he was "excited" about the PTBNL.....now I realize he has to be excited but my first thought was either someone they want to keep until the end of the season to help them in the pennant race or someone that hasnt been in the organization one year and cant be traded yet....

Just what I took from his comments....Did anyone else hear them???

SteelSD
08-09-2004, 09:09 PM
Does it really make sense that the Reds get major league ready Josh Hancock and AAA ready Anderson Mercado for 36 year old relief pitcher Todd Jones and single A outfielder Brad Correll, and then 9 days later the Reds only get low A pitcher Joe Wilson and low A outfielder Jacon Moran and cash for 32 year old starting pitcher Cory Lidle from the same organization?

The more I think about this, the more I think we are going to get someone off the 40 from the Phils.

Actually, I get the opposite feeling. I see the PTBNL/Cash deal to be one of those value equitable deals dependant on Lidle's performance. And honestly, I'm not sure that the "cash" potential isn't more highly valued than the "PTBNL" side in order to recoup the net value loss the Reds took on Lidle this season.

Now, I didn't mind the Jones deal. It was what it was. But Anderson Machado puts the "fringe" in the phrase "fringe prospect". In fact, he's the guy Scouts talk about when they begin a sentence with "If he hits...". I honestly have much higher hopes for a Ray Olmedo than I do a Machado, regardless of his BB numbers (ooh...heresy, I know). Josh Hancock might technically be "MLB-ready" but he doesn't really project to be "MLB-good".

I've said it before and I'll say it again- The Jones deal was a Waiver Wire pickup for a couple of future Waiver Wire pickups.

In the Lidle deal, the Reds acquire a guy who smells a lot like Phil Dumatrait and another "If he hits..." speed-driven prospect (Moran). That's not a bad swap considering that Lidle has been a negative value for the Reds this season. Considering that the Padres dealt a comparable player (Valdez) for a Travis Chick, it's not a bad deal for the Reds at all. I'm a bit concerned with the offensive players O'Brien's getting back, but that's another conversation entirely.

But I do think the Reds did better much better from a "talent" perspective than the Jones deal. This offseason, they should be looking to package a couple of the guys they've received in these trades for truly projectible MLB-ready guys.

Of course, there's always the chance that Phils management might be even dumber than I thought, but I don't think we'll see any valuable MLB-ready player as the PTBNL for Lidle.

BTW, there are a couple different ways to look at the situational dynamic here:

1. Dan O'Brien (per Ed Wade) actually DID think the Reds were in contention before the July 31st deadline and only listened to offers out of courtesy.

2. Dan O'Brien positioned a "hardline" stance before the deadline to up the ante for other teams because he wasn't getting any offers as good as Wilson/Moran/Cash or PTBNL.

3. Dan O'Brien was never really negotiating with anyone other than the Phillies and they never offered anything as good as Wilson/Moran/Cash or PTBNL.

Now, considering that Dan O'Brien was restricted to negotiating with one team from August 1st on, is there anyone who feels that Dan O'Brien was able to get a bigger haul of talent in this deal than he was offered before the deadline?

Again, I don't mind the return. But if that's the return out of Lidle when O'Brien was restricted to one-team negotiating, does anyone else feel that there might have been more out there?

Stewie
08-09-2004, 09:16 PM
Stewie,
Are you sure about that PTBNL clause? I've never heard of it (which, in reality, doesn't mean anything)


http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html

There are two restrictions at work here. First, the transaction must be completed within six months. And second, the player named later can't have played in the same league as the team he's being traded to. That's why the player named later is almost always a minor leaguer.

Bowden's Ghost
08-09-2004, 09:24 PM
I am usually the first to bash O'brien, but i feel this was a pretty good trade. Especially if we get a decent ptbn. Corey Lidle wasn't going to bring a top-notch prospect with such a crappy year. At least Lundberg, i mean O'Brien, did something and traded for a, in his words, a "toolsy" player in Moran. Jim Bowden would be proud.

CougarQuest
08-09-2004, 09:26 PM
Rob Neyer

Player To Be Named Later
Quite often, you'll read that a player has been traded to another team for "a player to be named later."

There are two restrictions at work here. First, the transaction must be completed within six months. And second, the player named later can't have played in the same league as the team he's being traded to. That's why the player named later is almost always a minor leaguer.

And what if the teams can't agree on who that player will be? This happens rarely, but if no names are agreed upon initially, the clubs will agree on a price to paid in lieu of a player.

Sometimes, at the time of the deal the team receiving the player will provide the other club a list of minor leaguers, and later the club will have their pick of the players on that list. This list is negotiated at the time of the trade. In recent years, the Minnesota Twins lost Enrique Wilson this way. When it came time for Cleveland to make their choice, the Twins did what they could to "hide" Wilson, but the Indians found him anyway.

Finally, sometimes "Player to be named later" is used to trade players on the Disabled List, since it can be embarrassing for a club to trade for a guy who's on the DL

Hmmm, could O'Brien be picking a D/L'd player that he is so excited about?

LexingtonRedsFan
08-09-2004, 09:29 PM
From the ESPN article about them acquiring Lidle....

"We were very pleased to be able to add three quality players to our system," O'Brien said.

Sure sounds like we will be getting the third player...although, In Cincy, isnt Cash considered a player??? :mhcky21:

Stewie
08-09-2004, 09:32 PM
Hmmm, could O'Brien be picking a D/L'd player that he is so excited about?

That has Eric Junge written all over it.

wheels
08-09-2004, 09:35 PM
Just curious Steel....Why do you feel that he only negotiated with the Phillies?

Not that I disagree...I just wanna know your thought process.

johngalt
08-09-2004, 09:41 PM
The PTBNL might also be someone who was actually the centerpiece to the deal or the second big part. I'm thinking maybe another 2003 draftee who signed late is a possibility (guys have to be signed for a year before they can be traded), although I don't know of any real good players the Phillies drafted last year.

One other thing on the cash/PTBNL discussion: The Phillies press release is the one that said cash or PTBNL. The Reds one only said PTBNL. To me, that's an indication that the Reds are going to end up with a player and not the money.

Bowden's Ghost
08-09-2004, 09:47 PM
Stacko Cash is Carl Lindner's favorite player, so we'll probably get him as the PTBNL. We got his cousin Pileo Cash last year.

CougarQuest
08-09-2004, 09:49 PM
Yeah, the more I look at it, the more it appears to me to be Junge.

He fits the "looking for major league ready pitchers" mantra that O'Brien has said previously.

It's a PTBNL, because he is injured.

Shoulder surgery from last year, fits the Reds staff requirements. :mhcky21:

SteelSD
08-09-2004, 09:55 PM
Just curious Steel....Why do you feel that he only negotiated with the Phillies?

Not that I disagree...I just wanna know your thought process.

Because, unless I'm completely misreading a number of posts on this thread, the Phils put in a Waiver Claim on Lidle.

After that, it's either "Work out a deal", "Pull him back", or "Lose him for nothing". Considering the dynamic, I have a difficult time believing that the Reds worked out a more equitable deal than the Phillies (or others) had on the table before the deadline.

This may sound weird, but I think O'Brien won this deal from a talent value/talent perspective. But I think he lost talent versus what he might have been able to have before he was limited to trading with only one team.

corkedbat
08-09-2004, 09:58 PM
Because, unless I'm completely misreading a number of posts on this thread, the Phils put in a Waiver Claim on Lidle.

After that, it's either "Work out a deal", "Pull him back", or "Lose him for nothing". Considering the dynamic, I have a difficult time believing that the Reds worked out a more equitable deal than the Phillies (or others) had on the table before the deadline.

This may sound weird, but I think O'Brien won this deal from a talent value/talent perspective. But I think he lost talent versus what he might have been able to have before he was limited to trading with only one team.

That's my take also Steel, for the same reasons you cite.

wheels
08-09-2004, 09:59 PM
Oh you're talking about this waiver deal only.

I'm a little goofy today.

I just wish he would have come down to reality a little sooner, and maybe shopped these guys in earnest.

Lidle's definitely not gonna command much more than what they got.

Colorado Red
08-09-2004, 10:02 PM
Well Lidle got traded. Lets try and look at the positive side 1)This opens up spot for a younger pitcher to get a chance to show what he's got. 2)we get two or three good younger player with a "chance" to make it to the show. These players could be stepping stone to the majors. 3)Improving our minor league system with new players increases the competition in the Reds minor league system which should produce better players coming out of the system. 4)If we have a better ranked minor league system with several good pitching prospects other teams will be coming to us with better trades. 5)We save some $$ that will hopefully be used some where else in the Reds system for a better future. Or help sign some of our younger players to a long term contract. It looks like Lidle value wasn't a high as Todd Jones but the did get something useful for him. Before we make a complete judgement on this trade we need to find out who is the PTBN & how this player play in our system. I just hope O'Brien can trade Vander Wal and Danny Graves to save a lot more $$ and get some more stepping stones for the future.

:gac:

SteelSD
08-09-2004, 10:12 PM
That has Eric Junge written all over it.

And I want nothing to do with Eric Junge. I'd rather have the cash.

BTW, I really appreciate your presence here, Stewie. It's great to have input from other team's fans. Good luck to the Phils, sir!
:)

Krusty
08-09-2004, 10:36 PM
It would be nice to get Ramirez as the third player. He is probably the third best pitching prospect in the Phillies system.

flyer85
08-09-2004, 11:07 PM
A note on PTBNL.

In the Rocks-Cards deal, BA says the 2 PTBNLs are Narverson(BA #2) and Gall(BA #6). Both much better prospects than the one player announced.

Barbarossa
08-10-2004, 12:02 AM
I was looking at the Phillies 40 and came up with (which, turns out, pretty much sounds like what Stewie said)

Eric Junge: 27 year old righthanded pitcher with major league experience. Starter or reliever. Had shoulder surgery last year.

Juan Richardson: 25 year old 3B who had a severe ankle sprain last year. Looks like this guy has some serious power potential.

Franklin Perez: 26 year old righthanded pitcher who missed all of last year with elbow surgery.

I think it would be a coup if O'Brien were able to get 21 year old right handed pitcher Elizardo Ramierz or 23 year old right handed pitcher Keith Bucktrot.

I'm guessing it'll be Franklin Perez. He already has his elbow surgery out of the way. :gac:

Falls City Beer
08-10-2004, 12:11 AM
From a team as desperate as the Phillies, we should have at least gotten a AA performer of considerable upside.

CougarQuest
08-10-2004, 12:16 AM
Franklin is 0-4 with AAA, 5.29 ERA

WVRedsFan
08-10-2004, 12:23 AM
I guess the youth movement is on big time.

I was thinking tonight who I would keep on the Reds if I had my druthers. I came up with Casey, Dunn, Griffey, Kearns, Pena, and Kearns (maybe Freel and Jiminez) on the position player side. As far as pitchers, it took a lot of thought. Wagner, Harang, Claussen, and I got stumped. I'm sure a lot of younger guys in our farm system could come up and give us a 5+ ERA and a real schelacking once in awhile--for a lot less money. I'm not upset. I just wish they had pulled the trigger on Dempster last year and...gosh the list is just too long to type.

I may be stupid, but this team is never, ever going to buy up the stud free agent pitchers. Never. Given the choices, and it may take some time (and time is short for this old guy), youth is the way to go.

CougarQuest
08-10-2004, 12:27 AM
Hey maybe we can get Ed Yarnall back :roll:

oregonred
08-10-2004, 02:10 AM
Because, unless I'm completely misreading a number of posts on this thread, the Phils put in a Waiver Claim on Lidle.

After that, it's either "Work out a deal", "Pull him back", or "Lose him for nothing". Considering the dynamic, I have a difficult time believing that the Reds worked out a more equitable deal than the Phillies (or others) had on the table before the deadline.

This may sound weird, but I think O'Brien won this deal from a talent value/talent perspective. But I think he lost talent versus what he might have been able to have before he was limited to trading with only one team.

Good posts. I would agree with your good insight here other than maybe the Phils were more desperate on Aug 8th than July 31st sensing the Braves pulling away and minus Millwood, the Phils GM isn't very savvy and Lidle finally tossed a decent game again yesterday in Coors Field?? Too bad Lidle didn't toss a gem right before the deadline...

Assuming the Phils are paying Lidle's freight bill the rest of the way?

KronoRed
08-10-2004, 05:24 AM
Hey maybe we can get Ed Yarnall back :roll:

Get some cash if we sell him to Japan again ;)

Red Leader
08-10-2004, 08:42 AM
The PTBN in the deal that sent Cory Lidle to the Phillies could be RHP Elizardo Ramirez, or RHP Keith Bucktrot.

Indications are that the player is a member of the Phillies' 40-man roster, and as such would need to clear waivers before going to Cincinnati. Aug. 10 - 8:16 am et


This is from Rotoworld.com. Since Stewie has pointed out that it can't be Ramirez, my guess is that it is Bucktrot. From what I said earlier, "I will consider O'Brien a below average GM for this team until he acquires a prospect like Claussen in trade," well that might happen right here if Bucktrot is the man.

Doc. Scott
08-10-2004, 08:56 AM
Why is Bucktrot so great again? His numbers don't really show it.

He was a 3rd-round pick in 2000 out of an Oklahoma high school. Seems to have had control problems early on, but they seem to have improved. Still, after a good 2003 where he had a 3.33 ERA in High-A and a 2.56 mark in seven AA starts, he's 4-5, 4.46 in 15 AA starts in 2004 with 105 hits allowed in 78.2 innings and only 41 Ks. 30 walks is okay, but that's a really low K ratio, and his previous years weren't hugely better.

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=EHBB

http://www.baseballamerica.com/cgi-bin/statsfindplayer.pl?player=bucktrot

I guess he's better than Junge or Perez, but not much.

Red Leader
08-10-2004, 09:02 AM
Well, Bucktrot might not be an "outstanding" prospect to acquire by himself, but the idea that O'Brien could acquire him, and 2 Single A players with some upside for a pitcher like Cory Lidle has me feeling a little better about having O'Brien as our GM. I didn't think he was capable of negotiating a trade like this. Glad to see I was wrong.

Doc. Scott
08-10-2004, 09:05 AM
I'm not expecting the guy to be on par with Gavin Floyd or whoever, but Stewie was talking up Bucktrot as having some potential. I was wondering where he heard that.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 09:05 AM
The PTBN in the deal that sent Cory Lidle to the Phillies could be RHP Elizardo Ramirez, or RHP Keith Bucktrot.

Indications are that the player is a member of the Phillies' 40-man roster, and as such would need to clear waivers before going to Cincinnati. Aug. 10 - 8:16 am et


This is from Rotoworld.com. Since Stewie has pointed out that it can't be Ramirez, my guess is that it is Bucktrot. From what I said earlier, "I will consider O'Brien a below average GM for this team until he acquires a prospect like Claussen in trade," well that might happen right here if Bucktrot is the man.

If it is Bucktrot, I will go insane. Seriously. I mean, nothing would shock me anymore w/the way Ed Wade operates, but if he just "throws in" a prospect as good as Bucktrot, I will lose even more respect for the guy. I wouldn't have traded Bucktrot for Lidle straight up. I'm going to stick by my original belief that it will be Junge. He has pitched in the majors before, and could pitch long relief in the majors now, if not for the injury. My prediction is O'Brien gets Junge and says that he is "major league ready," so he doesn't get heavily criticized for trading Lidle for two guys playing in single-A. He will try to save some face and have a guy who can contribute to the big league club (as soon as he comes back from injury). FWIW, a writer from the Philadelphia Inquirer this morning said that the PTBNL will probably have to clear waivers b/c they are on the 40 man roster. He then said it could be Elizardo Ramirez or Bucktrot, meaning that in reality it will be anyone BUT Bucktrot or Ramirez (who I still don't think is even eligible). Sadly, the media here is horribly inaccurate and is very poor. If it ain't about the Eagles, they just don't know.

Buckeye33
08-10-2004, 09:07 AM
Why is Bucktrot so great again? His numbers don't really show it.

He was a 3rd-round pick in 2000 out of an Oklahoma high school. Seems to have had control problems early on, but they seem to have improved. Still, after a good 2003 where he had a 3.33 ERA in High-A and a 2.56 mark in seven AA starts, he's 4-5, 4.46 in 15 AA starts in 2004 with 105 hits allowed in 78.2 innings and only 41 Ks. 30 walks is okay, but that's a really low K ratio, and his previous years weren't hugely better.

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=EHBB

http://www.baseballamerica.com/cgi-bin/statsfindplayer.pl?player=bucktrot

I guess he's better than Junge or Perez, but not much.

Well, he's a 23 year old who is in AA ball which is not at all a bad thing. He pitched well last year and hasn't responded the way you might like this season. He isn't a strikeout pitcher, but seems to know how to pitch.

Again I'll bring up the fact that this is Cory Lidel that we got these 3 players for. I consider that they each have at least a fair shot at making it to the bigs, and if just one of them become productive for just 1 full season, they have provided more than Cory Lidle ever did as a Red.

Red Leader
08-10-2004, 09:12 AM
Hey, thanks Stewie for your input on this thread. I really appreciate your perspective from Philly on this deal. I also enjoyed your last statement about the Philly media and the Eagles. My wife was in training in Philly this year and we went to visit her there. I read the newspaper both days I was there and I couldn't believe the articles written about the Phillies. They were either inaccurate or incompetent on baseball to write such articles (this was in May when Philly was really struggling)

CougarQuest
08-10-2004, 09:13 AM
Here's hoping that Stewie has to get a prescription of Xanax :evil:

buckeyenut
08-10-2004, 09:16 AM
I was looking at the Phillies 40 and came up with (which, turns out, pretty much sounds like what Stewie said)

Eric Junge: 27 year old righthanded pitcher with major league experience. Starter or reliever. Had shoulder surgery last year.

Juan Richardson: 25 year old 3B who had a severe ankle sprain last year. Looks like this guy has some serious power potential.

Franklin Perez: 26 year old righthanded pitcher who missed all of last year with elbow surgery.

I think it would be a coup if O'Brien were able to get 21 year old right handed pitcher Elizardo Ramierz or 23 year old right handed pitcher Keith Bucktrot.

Last few messages have made it sound like Bucktrot might be the guy. But I could also very easily like with Richardson. Might give us a stop gap so we don't rush EE.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 09:17 AM
Well, he's a 23 year old who is in AA ball which is not at all a bad thing. He pitched well last year and hasn't responded the way you might like this season. He isn't a strikeout pitcher, but seems to know how to pitch.

Again I'll bring up the fact that this is Cory Lidel that we got these 3 players for. I consider that they each have at least a fair shot at making it to the bigs, and if just one of them become productive for just 1 full season, they have provided more than Cory Lidle ever did as a Red.

Bucktrot throws hard, around 94-95, but from what I have heard, he has trouble getting his breaking stuff over. That could be the reason why his Ks aren't very high. If he could establish some good secondary pitches, he could be decent. He's definitely not at the level of Floyd or Hamels, and he's probably a step below Ramirez as well, but he is still too god to be a "throw in" in a deal involving Lidle. He's probably the Phillies 5th or 6th best pitching prospect right now, and he has a few years to go before he could be in the majors.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 09:44 AM
Hey, thanks Stewie for your input on this thread. I really appreciate your perspective from Philly on this deal. I also enjoyed your last statement about the Philly media and the Eagles. My wife was in training in Philly this year and we went to visit her there. I read the newspaper both days I was there and I couldn't believe the articles written about the Phillies. They were either inaccurate or incompetent on baseball to write such articles (this was in May when Philly was really struggling)

No problem, I enjoy this board, it seems that you guys are knowledgable and get some good discussions going. And yes, the media is horrible. The main beat writer for the team thinks Bowa is a good manager and Doug Glanville should get more playing time. Enough said about that guy. Then there is one of the main sports radio "personalities" who constantly bashes Bobby Abreu b/c he doesn't "hustle" or get "clutch hits." Insane. It always makes me laugh when I see people here bashing Adam Dunn b/c his BA is low. It just reminds me of how a lot of people here attack Abreu for no reason at all. Dunn and Abreu are two of the best outfielders in the National League, or the majors for that matter, and there are people that nitpick and complain about them. I would kill to see Dunn on the Phillies.



Here's hoping that Stewie has to get a prescription of Xanax

No kidding, last night pitching coach Joe Kerrigan said to a reporter that they may consider going to a 6 man rotation. I didn't get all the details, as I think I blacked out or something. God forbid they take Paul Abbott out of the rotation. :confused: So whenever you think the Reds are having problems, just be happy that Gullett isn't considering a 6 man rotation (especially considering the fact that two of those men are Cory Lidle and Paul Abbott). :thumbup:

Chip R
08-10-2004, 09:59 AM
Stewie, did you happen to read that article in the Las Vegas paper by Tyler Houston ripping Bowa and John Vukovich?

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Aug-01-Sun-2004/sports/24440798.html


No kidding, last night pitching coach Joe Kerrigan said to a reporter that they may consider going to a 6 man rotation. I didn't get all the details, as I think I blacked out or something. God forbid they take Paul Abbott out of the rotation. :confused: So whenever you think the Reds are having problems, just be happy that Gullett isn't considering a 6 man rotation (especially considering the fact that two of those men are Cory Lidle and Paul Abbott). :thumbup:Back in 1997 Ray Knight was going to experiment with a 6 man rotation. He got the boot not too long after that.

traderumor
08-10-2004, 10:23 AM
Stewie, did you happen to read that article in the Las Vegas paper by Tyler Houston ripping Bowa and John Vukovich?

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Aug-01-Sun-2004/sports/24440798.html

Back in 1997 Ray Knight was going to experiment with a 6 man rotation. He got the boot not too long after that.Bowa will not survive this season if the Phils don't make the playoffs, and with the injuries that now seems to be a snowball's chance. Maybe teams will stop hiring members of the Phils championship team as managers finally?

Spitball
08-10-2004, 10:42 AM
The more I think about this, the more I think we are going to get someone off the 40 from the Phils.

Coog, I was thinking the same thing. The apparent return doesn't make sense unless there is something a bit more significant awaiting the future. A bit like the David Wells trade from '95 that had platoon third base starter Mark Lewis going to the the Tigers after the season was over as the player to be named later. I've been wondering if the player might be Chase Utley. I doubt Lidle would command much more, even from a desperate Philly team.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 10:44 AM
Stewie, did you happen to read that article in the Las Vegas paper by Tyler Houston ripping Bowa and John Vukovich?

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Aug-01-Sun-2004/sports/24440798.html

Back in 1997 Ray Knight was going to experiment with a 6 man rotation. He got the boot not too long after that.

Oh yeah, I definitely read Tyler Houston's article. He was ripping Bowa when he got released last year (and before actually, too). Apparently, it all started b/c Burrell supposedly "snubbed" Bowa after Pat homered last season, and Bowa took out his anger by releasing Houston, since he thought Houston was the ringleader of the whole snubbing incident. Bowa called Houston "a loser," and said that there is a reason that Houston has jumped around from team to team and now is no longer in the league anymore. I did like how Houston volunteered to come out here and fire Bowa himself. He may have to, since I don't think Ed Wade has the guts to do it. Even if they don't make the playoffs, I fear that Wade will blame the injuries and allow Bowa to manage again next year. It's a pretty ugly situation. Personally, for the past couple years I have been advocating that they get rid of the whole front office, especially all the guys associated w/the 1980 team, and start fresh. I guess they figure that those 1980 guys know how to win, and it will rub off on these guys. They need to get rid of them all, Bowa, Vukovich, Greg Gross, Dallas Green, Boone (who knows why they brought him in in the first place).

Red Leader
08-10-2004, 10:50 AM
I've been wondering if the player might be Chase Utley. I doubt Lidle would command much more, even from a desperate Philly team.


If its Chase Utley, Dan O'Brien should have a statue erected outside of GAB. There's no way the Phils part with Utley for Lidle. No way.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 11:00 AM
Coog, I was thinking the same thing. The apparent return doesn't make sense unless there is something a bit more significant awaiting the future. A bit like the David Wells trade from '95 that had platoon third base starter Mark Lewis going to the the Tigers after the season was over as the player to be named later. I've been wondering if the player might be Chase Utley. I doubt Lidle would command much more, even from a desperate Philly team.

Wade has said repeatedly over the past week or so that he reufsed to part with Utley in order to get Kris Benson. He said the only guy that Pittsburgh wanted was Utley (which was odd, b/c they ended up getting less from New York). Plus, Utley can't be the PTBNL since he is in the majors now, so he's not eligible. Mark Lewis was able to go to Detroit as a PTBNL b/c he went to an AL team. My understanding is a player who has played in the majors in the season of the trade can't go from one NL team to another NL team (or AL to AL). They can switch leagues, however.

Also, if Ed Wade ever did trade Utley (especially as a throw in for Lidle), he would probably be shot. He's way too PR conscious to so something like that.

PuffyPig
08-10-2004, 11:07 AM
Coog, I was thinking the same thing. The apparent return doesn't make sense unless there is something a bit more significant awaiting the future. A bit like the David Wells trade from '95 that had platoon third base starter Mark Lewis going to the the Tigers after the season was over as the player to be named later. I've been wondering if the player might be Chase Utley. I doubt Lidle would command much more, even from a desperate Philly team.

Can't be Utley because the PTBNL later can't be a player who's played in the majors if the trade is going to the same league.

Also, it can't be Utley because that would make this the trade of the century.

Tony's Royals
08-10-2004, 11:15 AM
I think it cant be Ramirez either he pitched in the majors this year 2.

Red Leader
08-10-2004, 11:16 AM
Which takes us back to Bucktrot, fa la la la, la la la....

Doc. Scott
08-10-2004, 11:25 AM
Don't get me wrong- I'd still rather have Bucktrot than Junge or Perez, if solely on age and health issues.

Spitball
08-10-2004, 01:42 PM
Hmmm...I didn't know the PTBNL later couldn't be a player who's played in the majors if the trade is going to the same league. I wonder about the reasoning when it is permitted between leagues.

I made a quick guess at Utley because he would fill a need in Cincy, and he seems to be blocked by David Bell and Placido Polanco in Philly. Also, I did not realize he was held in such high regard. He seems to have very average tools even for a second/third baseman. He doesn't walk much (7 in 59 games), and he has an OBP of .309. He is not a real good fielder so his strength would have to be his offense and that seems questionable at this point.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 02:08 PM
Hmmm...I didn't know the PTBNL later couldn't be a player who's played in the majors if the trade is going to the same league. I wonder about the reasoning when it is permitted between leagues.

I made a quick guess at Utley because he would fill a need in Cincy, and he seems to be blocked by David Bell and Placido Polanco in Philly. Also, I did not realize he was held in such high regard. He seems to have very average tools even for a second/third baseman. He doesn't walk much (7 in 59 games), and he has an OBP of .309. He is not a real good fielder so his strength would have to be his offense and that seems questionable at this point.

Utley is the 2B of the future here, Polanco will be gone this off-season. Actually, Placido would be in Oakland now, had the A's not suffered a few injuries in the bullpen. That forced Billy Beane to keep Rincon, as opposed to sending him to the Yankees and having the Yankees send Lofton to the Phils. You're right in that he doesn't walk, and that does concern me a little. He does, however, have very good power, and could easily develop into a 30 home run guy (He would have 30 home runs this year if he had kept up this pace for an entire season). His defense isn't great, but it's not horrible. The hope is that Chase Utley develops into a left-handed Jeff Kent-type player. Adequate defensively, not very fast, but is a good hitter in the middle of the lineup. True, his OBP is only .309, but his slugging is .525. Actually, in looking at the stats, he is putting up very similar numbers to Wily Mo Pena. So if you want to look at it that way, he is the Phillies' equivalent to WMP.

Doc. Scott
08-10-2004, 02:15 PM
Man, we need to get a smart fan from every team to give us good information on all the teams. Although, for some of the teams it might prove quite difficult to find someone fitting that description.

Stormy
08-10-2004, 02:21 PM
Actually, in looking at the stats, he is putting up very similar numbers to Wily Mo Pena. So if you want to look at it that way, he is the Phillies' equivalent to WMP.

Perhaps if Wily Mo Pena was heading towards 26 years of age, instead of 22 (and even the walk-challenged WMP is walking at nearly twice Utley's rate, with far superior power). ;) I can see where the Kent comparison is possibly a valid perception though. A guy who blossoms a little late, who takes a while to boost his OBP high enough to make his Slg% worthwhile. Utley could be a nice infield bat with pop, despite his currently excruciatingly low walk rates.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 02:38 PM
Perhaps if Wily Mo Pena was heading towards 26 years of age, instead of 22 (and even the walk-challenged WMP is walking at nearly twice Utley's rate, with far superior power). ;) I can see where the Kent comparison is possibly a valid perception though. A guy who blossoms a little late, who takes a while to boost his OBP high enough to make his Slg% worthwhile. Utley could be a nice infield bat with pop, despite his currently excruciatingly low walk rates.

Bah! I forgot to look at the ages to compare. My fault on that one. I don't know if I would say that WMP has far superior power than Utley, WMP has 18 homers in 246 ABs, while Utley has 11 in 179 ABs. WMP's rate is higher, but it's not that dramatic of a difference (now admittedly, I haven't seen enough of Pena to know what he will project to be in the future - Utley should be a solid 30 hr guy, though). I was just trying to find an apt player on the Reds to compare Utley to, and the closest I found was WMP, especially given each player's aversion to the base on balls. I did forget to take the age into consideration, though. I should have just stuck w/the Jeff Kent comparison. :thumbup:

Doc. Scott
08-10-2004, 02:44 PM
Yeah... it was funny because the two players are about as different as could possibly be outside of stats. Utley's a white guy, 6'1", 185, a left-handed-hitting infielder, a first-round draft pick out of UCLA and Pasadena, CA, and his name makes him sound like he's just walked off the set of "Falcon Crest". Pena's from the Dominican Republic, 6'3" 215, a right-handed-hitting outfielder, signed at 16 by a bird-dog scout, and speaks very limited English.

buckeyenut
08-10-2004, 03:18 PM
Bah! I forgot to look at the ages to compare. My fault on that one. I don't know if I would say that WMP has far superior power than Utley, WMP has 18 homers in 246 ABs, while Utley has 11 in 179 ABs. WMP's rate is higher, but it's not that dramatic of a difference (now admittedly, I haven't seen enough of Pena to know what he will project to be in the future - Utley should be a solid 30 hr guy, though). I was just trying to find an apt player on the Reds to compare Utley to, and the closest I found was WMP, especially given each player's aversion to the base on balls. I did forget to take the age into consideration, though. I should have just stuck w/the Jeff Kent comparison. :thumbup:

I understand what you are doing, and since you don't watch or follow the Reds, it is tough to know. But, there is no way in the world Utley has Wily Mo power. Wily Mo is often compared to a young Sammy Sosa solely because of his absolutely incredible power. Raw power, I would think it might be difficult to determine who had more out of Wily Mo and Adam Dunn. Now, Dunn is far more advanced as a hitter. But Wily Mo is a Batting Practice draw with his 500+ foot blasts.

Crash Davis
08-10-2004, 03:31 PM
When was the last time Wily Mo saw 6'3" 215 lbs?

Wouldn't you say he's closer to 6'4" 245 now? He's a big boy.

Doc. Scott
08-10-2004, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I was just taking the listed weight. They used to list Kevin Mitchell when he was with the Reds at 210, and that was true only if it was kilograms.

Stormy
08-10-2004, 03:47 PM
When was the last time Wily Mo saw 6'3" 215 lbs?

Wouldn't you say he's closer to 6'4" 245 now? He's a big boy.

I'd definitely estimate him to be 6'4" 245. Last night I was watching the Redskins/Broncos game and when you see a physical freak like Sean Taylor coming up from a safety position to lay a hit on a RB, or ball hawking to intercept a pass en route to a receiver, you're like: "Holy #@#$ is that a 6'3" 235 safety, with 4.4+ speed, who just came out of nowhere and blew up that play?" WMP has that same type of preternatural size and ability, of a young prodigy whose abilities (though not polished) are sometimes larger than life. Unfortunately, sheer freakish strength, size, speed doesn't translate into guaranteed instant impact in baseball in the way it might in some other sports. However, with the right work ethic and desire to hone his plate approach, WMP has everything it takes to be a one of a kind power producer in this league.

Stewy: Again, I agree with your Jeff Kent as a ceiling comparison for Utley (and that bodes very well for the Phillies if he follows a similar path). Two things I would point out about the power disparity between Utley/WMP: Data shows that when a 20-22 year old slugger is mashing for power at this level, it's a harbinger of much more prolific power in the future (which is not always indicated when power is evinced at a later age). Secondly, as mentioned before, Utley has the ability to drive the ball, and go deep, whereas Pena has the type of power which lends itself to hitting virtually any pitch he gets ahold of into a different zip code. He has the type of distance power that is only demonstrated by a handful of players in the game at any point in time. *If* he begins to control the strikezone as he matures, that will likely put him in the company of the great sluggers in the game. So, Utley and Pena are just very different types of players, even in the power department, despite the similarity of some of their numbers.

I think Utley is going to be a solid bat for the Phils for a while though. He's going to be a nice infield bat to have at your disposal.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 03:47 PM
I understand what you are doing, and since you don't watch or follow the Reds, it is tough to know. But, there is no way in the world Utley has Wily Mo power. Wily Mo is often compared to a young Sammy Sosa solely because of his absolutely incredible power. Raw power, I would think it might be difficult to determine who had more out of Wily Mo and Adam Dunn. Now, Dunn is far more advanced as a hitter. But Wily Mo is a Batting Practice draw with his 500+ foot blasts.

Point taken. Admittedly, I haven't been able to see Reds' games on a day-to-day basis since about last May (when I graduated from Miami), so I haven't seen as much of Wily Mo Pena as I would have liked (all that I have read about him intrigues me). Since the Reds aren't on ESPN all that often, I've probably only seen the guy a few times (and most of those times were during Spring Training). I have seen a lot of Dunn to be able to understand your comparison in raw power between he and WMP. Chase Utley does have good power, and has hit some shots, but it does definitely sound like WMP exceeds him in that category (more so than I originally gave him credit for).

Spitball
08-10-2004, 04:43 PM
I found these numbers interesting when I was comparing the stats of Pena and Utley. Of Pena's 18 homers, 15 have traveled 400 feet or more while Utley has exceeded 400 feet only 3 times in eleven homeruns. As Stormy was pointing out, WMP has big time power.

Stewie
08-10-2004, 08:45 PM
I'd definitely estimate him to be 6'4" 245. Last night I was watching the Redskins/Broncos game and when you see a physical freak like Sean Taylor coming up from a safety position to lay a hit on a RB, or ball hawking to intercept a pass en route to a receiver, you're like: "Holy #@#$ is that a 6'3" 235 safety, with 4.4+ speed, who just came out of nowhere and blew up that play?" WMP has that same type of preternatural size and ability, of a young prodigy whose abilities (though not polished) are sometimes larger than life. Unfortunately, sheer freakish strength, size, speed doesn't translate into guaranteed instant impact in baseball in the way it might in some other sports. However, with the right work ethic and desire to hone his plate approach, WMP has everything it takes to be a one of a kind power producer in this league.

Stewy: Again, I agree with your Jeff Kent as a ceiling comparison for Utley (and that bodes very well for the Phillies if he follows a similar path). Two things I would point out about the power disparity between Utley/WMP: Data shows that when a 20-22 year old slugger is mashing for power at this level, it's a harbinger of much more prolific power in the future (which is not always indicated when power is evinced at a later age). Secondly, as mentioned before, Utley has the ability to drive the ball, and go deep, whereas Pena has the type of power which lends itself to hitting virtually any pitch he gets ahold of into a different zip code. He has the type of distance power that is only demonstrated by a handful of players in the game at any point in time. *If* he begins to control the strikezone as he matures, that will likely put him in the company of the great sluggers in the game. So, Utley and Pena are just very different types of players, even in the power department, despite the similarity of some of their numbers.

I think Utley is going to be a solid bat for the Phils for a while though. He's going to be a nice infield bat to have at your disposal.

Ok, I was able to check out some of the Reds game tonight (had to go to my parent's house where they have that digital cable baseball package thingy), and Pena is definitely a lot bigger than 6'3" 215. That 245 estimate seems to be a lot closer. Of course, in the 2 at bats I saw, he swung at the first pitch, and the 2nd pitch respectively, grounding out both times, so I didn't get too good a look at him. But he does look like a very big kid.

And that shot by Adam Dunn was sick, and they were saying that Pena hit a ball in BP that bounced off the top of the batter's eye, so now I got a decent idea about him. I'm now convinced he has more power potential than Utley (although Utley did draw a walk tonight, thank you very much ;) ).

BoydsOfSummer
08-10-2004, 10:56 PM
Should have seen the foul ball he hit in Cleveland. It almost hit Gund arena. That ball is still going.