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RBA
03-13-2005, 10:28 AM
Remembering all those arguments made 1,500 deaths ago

Wed Mar 9, 5:03 PM ET




By Joseph L. Galloway, Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - Something about anniversaries prods us to pause and reflect on what's transpired in the intervening time. March 20 is the second anniversary of the invasion of Iraq (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Iraq%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Iraq)), and it's a good time to consider what's happened since then.

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/kr_155.gif (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/krwashbureau/linkbox_krwashbureau_ts/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/knightridder/krwash/brand/SIG=11qd0mdt3/**http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realcities.com%2Fmld%2Fkrwashin gton%2F) •Syria gives U.N. a timetable for first phase of pullout (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/krwashbureau/linkbox_krwashbureau_ts///SIG=124g96gis/*http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/11125361.htm) •Politics spins a wider Web of concerns (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/krwashbureau/linkbox_krwashbureau_ts///SIG=11t27ev5f/*http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/11120282.htm) •Jury calls Nichols cold, fearsome (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/krwashbureau/linkbox_krwashbureau_ts///SIG=11v4nsl8k/*http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/11116463.htm) •U.S.: Checkpoint where Italian died was hastily arranged (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/krwashbureau/linkbox_krwashbureau_ts///SIG=12433rcb7/*http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/11118747.htm) •Cold-turkey hiring can go up in smoke (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/krwashbureau/linkbox_krwashbureau_ts///SIG=11tpca9gj/*http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/11115580.htm)
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050313/thumb.bag10603131500.iraq_bag106.jpg (javascript: rs()
AP Photo (javascript: rs() http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/auctions/cam.gifSlideshow: Iraq (javascript: rs()

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/th/postiraq_158x38.jpg (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/iraq/2/*http://news.yahoo.com/iraq) Latest headlines: ·Two U.S. Contractors Killed in Iraq (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/iraq/export/top2/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050313/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=1480)
AP - 8 minutes ago ·Iraq Deputy Leader Says Government Talks to Resume (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/iraq/export/top2/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050313/wl_nm/iraq_dc&cid=574&ncid=1480)
Reuters - 24 minutes ago ·U.S. payments aimed at Iraqis' losses (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/iraq/export/top2/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20050313/ts_chicagotrib/uspaymentsaimedatiraqislosses&cid=2027&ncid=1480)
Chicago Tribune - 35 minutes ago Special Coverage (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/iraq/2/*http://news.yahoo.com/iraq)
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/net/20050120/capt.400194bc4ed0c364041d574309270f0f.pjpeg
Echo Company (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/special_packages/echo_company/)
Knight Ridder Special Report (at philly.com)

Do you recall our civilian leadership's rationale for a pre-emptive war against Saddam Hussein (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Saddam%20Hussein%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Saddam%20Hussein))? President George Bush (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22George%20Bush%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=George%20Bush)) and Vice President Dick Cheney (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Dick%20Cheney%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Dick%20Cheney)) and, yes, former Secretary of State Colin Powell (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Colin%20Powell%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Colin%20Powell)) told the world that the United States had no choice but to invade Iraq. They said Saddam was hiding chemical and biological weapons, and that his scientists would be able to produce a nuclear weapon in a few years.



Do you remember those who predicted that the operation would be financed in large part by sales of Iraqi oil? It would be cheap, easy and, oh yes, so swift that civilian leaders in the Pentagon (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Pentagon%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Pentagon)) ordered the military to plan to begin withdrawing from Iraq no later than the summer of 2003.



There was no need for much post-war planning because there wasn't going to be any post-war. America would come, conquer and get out. If Iraq was broken, its new government headed by the neo-conservatives' favorite exile, Ahmad Chalabi, could fix it. There would be no need for American nation-building, just some modest humanitarian aid.



Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld's office had visions of a replay of the almost effortless destruction of Afghanistan (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Afghanistan%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/krwashbureau/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa/13477364/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Afghanistan))'s hated Taliban regime using precision-guided munitions, Special Operations forces with laser pointers and Afghan allies.



In Iraq, as in Afghanistan, less would be more, lighter would be better and faster would be best of all. Any Third World regime could be taken down by a few special operators and some airplanes. The Army's heavy divisions were relics of the Cold War.



When then-Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric K. Shinseki reluctantly answered a senator's persistent questioning by suggesting that occupying and pacifying Iraq, an unruly nation the size of California with 25 million citizens, might require a force of "hundreds of thousands," he was mugged by Rumsfeld's minions.



Under Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz hastened to the Hill the next day and told the legislators that Shinseki's estimate was "wildly off the mark," and that Iraq wouldn't be nearly as tough as Afghanistan had been because Iraq didn't have the sort of nasty ethnic divisions one found in Afghanistan.



At that moment, in late February 2003, on the eve of the invasion, the U.S. invasion force of 278,000 American troops began to dwindle as someone tried to prove the job could be done with fewer than Shinseki's 200,000 troops. Call that the Shinseki Threshold.



One division's tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles bobbed around at sea for weeks and arrived too late for the attack. A second division of tanks and Bradley armored vehicles slated for the follow-up to the invasion was canceled; a third division's deployment to Iraq was postponed for several months. Military Police units needed to secure a hundreds of miles of dangerous supply lines - and to establish law and order - disappeared from the war plan.



A strike force that amounted to an Army division and a Marine Expeditionary Force, with Air Force and Navy fighters and bombers, took down Baghdad in three weeks.



But as the invasion forces regrouped, the world witnessed an orgy of looting and burning of government ministry buildings, and even the power plants upon which a city of 11 million people depended. There was no one to prevent it.



Birthing democracy, Rumsfeld allowed, can be "messy."



After nearly 18 months, the Pentagon admitted that a team of nearly 1,000 intelligence officials and scientists had combed Iraq for evidence of chemical and biological weapons or any sign of an active nuclear weapons program. They found nothing.



This war that was supposed to be a cakewalk has taken the lives of 1,510 American troops and sent thousands more home, maimed by improvised explosive devices that tear off arms and legs.



American taxpayers have paid more than $200 billion in two years for a war we were told wouldn't cost much, if anything, and the cost in fiscal 2006 will be at least $70 billion more.



Now the administration tells us that we had to attack not because Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and ties to al-Qaeda, but because he wasn't a democrat. Sadly, however, the costs of trying to make Iraq a democracy probably would have been lower, and the chances of succeeding better, if we hadn't gone to war with flimsy evidence and wishful thinking.



---

ABOUT THE WRITER

Joseph L. Galloway is the senior military correspondent for Knight Ridder Newspapers and co-author of the national best-seller "We Were Soldiers Once ... and Young." Readers may write to him at: Knight Ridder Washington Bureau, 700 12th St. N.W., Suite 1000, Washington, D.C. 20005-3994. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2270&u=/krwashbureau/20050309/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_galloway_column_wa&printer=1

Phoenix
03-13-2005, 11:50 AM
And I still support the war. Some will only look at the negative. Never mind that a brutal, violent dictator has come down who did have WMD and used them on a neighbor and his own people. The same dictator who did not live up to his commitments post gulf-war and illegally profited from the UN oil-for-food program. Thanks to Bush and Blair for taking him on, taking him out and sending a strong message to other like-minded dictators such as Kadafi.

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Dom Heffner
03-13-2005, 12:48 PM
Some will only look at the negative. Never mind that a brutal, violent dictator has come down who did have WMD and used them on a neighbor and his own people.

And some will follow their leader no matter how much positive spin he puts on an awful, messy situation. Never mind that the entire reason for invading the country has now been disproved. Bush told Hussein that if he disarmed, then we would not invade. Think about that statement. It does not matter what Bill Clinton thought, what Colin Powell thought, or what John Kerry or Tony Blair thought. Bush was the man who made the final decision, and he was dead wrong.

If you want to invade countries based on what they did years ago, then maybe we should invade Vietnam. Maybe we can go down to the Barbary Coast, you know, the pirates down there attacked our merchant ships under the Jefferson administration. :)


"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

What was Hussein going to triumph over? I wasn't worried about him for the same reason we defeated him in about an hour. He had nothing, and he proved it when he ran away. I mean, the guy didn't even have an air force, and we are pulling out quotes about "evil" and triumphing over good...

For someone who has never read a page of Orwell, Bush has his language down pretty well.

Phoenix
03-13-2005, 01:32 PM
Some would have done nothing about Saddam Hussein. Thankfully the results of the last election showed that the majority of Americans chose to return Bush to the Presidency for another four years. Apparently the "rush to war" and "lying to go to war" arguments were rejected. You think most would have learned from history that you don't want to wait until the evil, and yes Saddam Hussein was E-V-I-L, is powerful enough to cause ever-increasing death and destruction before taking action.

RBA
03-13-2005, 01:42 PM
Most Americans don't like to admit that "our" "chosen" leaders failed us. Americans and the the rest of the human race don't like to admit mistakes.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2005, 01:50 PM
Some would have done nothing about Saddam Hussein. Thankfully the results of the last election showed that the majority of Americans chose to return Bush to the Presidency for another four years. Apparently the "rush to war" and "lying to go to war" arguments were rejected. You think most would have learned from history that you don't want to wait until the evil, and yes Saddam Hussein was E-V-I-L, is powerful enough to cause ever-increasing death and destruction before taking action.

Think about that logic for a second. Really. Pick it apart.

It must have been right because "we asked" for a second helping.

Yeah, that's a bit like saying, "'Diary of a Mad Black Woman' must be a quality movie because it was number one at the box office."

Phoenix
03-13-2005, 01:57 PM
FCB- describe the illogical part.

Dom Heffner
03-13-2005, 04:17 PM
Phoenix, Bush won by 100,000 votes in Ohio. Hardly an overwhelming majority.

As well, your argument is based on a few assumptions. One, that the war was the only thing people voted on and two, that just because the majority thinks something is true, then it necessarily is.

There are more people in the world that believe in religions other than Christianity, so are all Christians wrong because a majority of people belive in something else?

I would hope that you would find the war either to be just or unjust based on your own conclusions rather than what most people think.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2005, 04:39 PM
I would hope that you would find the war either to be just or unjust based on your own conclusions rather than what most people think.

No matter how hard, no Republican I've ever met or chatted with online will EVER admit that the decision was wrong to go to war on the basis of weapons of mass destruction. I've never heard it uttered. Once. I've given up that tack.

Black is white. Night is day. Peace is war.

Phoenix, the logical fallacy you're committing is called "bandwagoning." In bandwagoning, the conclusion ""Rush to war' argument is wrong" is reached not by any logical antecedent such as, for instance "Saddam had missiles pointed at Germany and Italy in January 2003," but by a posteriori unrelated appeals to mass opinion, "majority of Americans returned Bush to power."

Phoenix
03-13-2005, 05:36 PM
Some would have done nothing about Saddam Hussein. Thankfully the results of the last election showed that the majority of Americans chose to return Bush to the Presidency for another four years. Apparently the "rush to war" and "lying to go to war" arguments were rejected. You think most would have learned from history that you don't want to wait until the evil, and yes Saddam Hussein was E-V-I-L, is powerful enough to cause ever-increasing death and destruction before taking action.

Not following you FCB on why my post above is not logical. In the first sentence I make a point I doubt few would argue with. Then I write that the majority of Americans looked past a few of the more common arguments against Bush and returned him to the Presidency. I expressed thankfulness that the majority did so. My final thought harkins back to the adage that those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. When a dictator has proven to be a menace to the world you ought not wait for him to continually strengthen himself before taking action. I suppose the most obvious example would have been appeasing Hitler in the late 30's. My point is that you are better to take action sooner rather than later. So please pick that post a part and show how it is illogical.

MWM
03-13-2005, 05:56 PM
When a dictator has proven to be a menace to the world you ought not wait for him to continually strengthen himself before taking action.

Kim Jon Il says hi. Should we invade? Based on your reasoning, we haves lots and lots of invading to do.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2005, 06:33 PM
Not following you FCB on why my post above is not logical. In the first sentence I make a point I doubt few would argue with. Then I write that the majority of Americans looked past a few of the more common arguments against Bush and returned him to the Presidency. I expressed thankfulness that the majority did so. My final thought harkins back to the adage that those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. When a dictator has proven to be a menace to the world you ought not wait for him to continually strengthen himself before taking action. I suppose the most obvious example would have been appeasing Hitler in the late 30's. My point is that you are better to take action sooner rather than later. So please pick that post a part and show how it is illogical.


If your contention is that you're following lockstep in the Republican party line, I can't argue. You're spouting all the right rhetoric.

Trouble is, it doesn't save you from not understanding logic. I don't have the time to brush you up on logical fallacies. Grab a logic primer, a book on symbolic logic, or any number of books on debate, and get back to me.

Well, Hitler DID invade Poland before we jumped into the fray. So that example is completely refuted and shut down. And see MWM's post to see how absurd your contention is that we should invade every nation with a despot.

Phoenix
03-13-2005, 06:33 PM
Kim Jon Il says hi. Should we invade? Based on your reasoning, we haves lots and lots of invading to do.

Looks like we waited too long. Not we can just pray.

Phoenix
03-13-2005, 06:36 PM
If your contention is that you're following lockstep in the Republican party line, I can't argue. You're spouting all the right rhetoric.

Trouble is, it doesn't save you from not understanding logic. I don't have the time to brush you up on logical fallacies. Grab a logic primer, a book on symbolic logic, or any number of books on debate, and get back to me.

Well, Hitler DID invade Poland before we jumped into the fray. So that example is completely refuted and shut down. And see MWM's post to see how absurd your contention is that we should invade every nation with a despot.

Perhaps you don't understand what logic is. Looks like you're reduced to petty insults. I'm not impressed.

paintmered
03-13-2005, 06:42 PM
I mean, the guy didn't even have an air force


http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/web/web_0308063-F-9999C-909.jpg

RBA
03-13-2005, 06:55 PM
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/web/web_0308063-F-9999C-909.jpg

Yup, It really looks ready to fly to the United States and attack us. Well, maybe with a little help from the tooth fairy and her/his magic fairy dust.


I'm also sure while they are flying to attack us that the jets will be refueled by Iraq's fleet of KC-135 and KC-10's in flight.

The Baumer
03-13-2005, 07:32 PM
To me Saddam was a great guy. I mean, he may have done some things, but those were in the past. I think America is the real terrorist threat. 9-11 was staged. In fact, anything that conservatives say is a total fallacy because they lack logic and any sort of elevated mental capabilities. Heck, they believe in a God. Who does that nowadays? It's the 21st century. Sheesh.

pedro
03-13-2005, 07:58 PM
We sure kissed his butt when it was convenient for us. He was a bad guy then too. All this "spreading freedom" rhetoric is just a bunch of double speak to cover up for misguided decisions made to further personal agendas.

http://www.photius.com/rogue_nations/rumsfeld_saddam.gif

DunnersGrl44
03-13-2005, 08:00 PM
Sometimes I wonder how people make it so far in life.
Completely rediculous.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2005, 08:04 PM
Sometimes I wonder how people make it so far in life. [rediculous.]

Does it get any easier?

Falls City Beer
03-13-2005, 08:05 PM
Heck, they believe in a God. Who does that nowadays? It's the 21st century. Sheesh.


Now you're talkin'.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2005, 08:25 PM
In fact, anything that conservatives say is a total fallacy because they lack logic and any sort of elevated mental capabilities.

Yeah, cuz Western Civilization has been a real stinker, what with that logic hocus-pocus hanging around. I know I'd much rather live under the caprices of a theocratic order. That would be so much better.

GAC
03-13-2005, 08:40 PM
Do we have to start these arguments all over again? It's like watching a John Wayne movie marathon on TBS every weekend! You've seen them all, but yet somehow you just can't pass it up! :lol:

It's not like one side is gonna convince or change the mind of the other, so why argue?

ochre
03-13-2005, 09:54 PM
Not following you FCB on why my post above is not logical... Then I write that the majority of Americans looked past a few of the more common arguments against Bush and returned him to the Presidency...

Argumentum ad numerum

This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#populum). It consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. For example:
"The vast majority of people in this country believe that capital punishment has a noticeable deterrent effect. To suggest that it doesn't in the face of so much evidence is ridiculous."

"All I'm saying is that thousands of people believe in pyramid power, so there must be something to it."



My final thought harkins back to the adage that those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. When a dictator has proven to be a menace to the world you ought not wait for him to continually strengthen himself before taking action. I suppose the most obvious example would have been appeasing Hitler in the late 30's. My point is that you are better to take action sooner rather than later. So please pick that post a part and show how it is illogical.
This one could have been a couple of different fallacies, but I guess this one will do well enough:




Non sequitur

A non sequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises which aren't logically connected with it. For example:
"Since Egyptians did so much excavation to construct the pyramids, they were well versed in paleontology."

(Non sequiturs are an important ingredient in a lot of humor. They're still fallacies, though.)


or, for that matter

Red herring

This fallacy is committed when someone introduces irrelevant material to the issue being discussed, so that everyone's attention is diverted away from the points made, towards a different conclusion.
"You may claim that the death penalty is an ineffective deterrent against crime -- but what about the victims of crime? How do you think surviving family members feel when they see the man who murdered their son kept in prison at their expense? Is it right that they should pay for their son's murderer to be fed and housed?"


***edited for crazy non-links showing up as links.

fallacy definitions including the examples grabbed from:http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

RBA
03-13-2005, 10:01 PM
To me Saddam was a great guy. I mean, he may have done some things, but those were in the past. I think America is the real terrorist threat. 9-11 was staged. In fact, anything that conservatives say is a total fallacy because they lack logic and any sort of elevated mental capabilities. Heck, they believe in a God. Who does that nowadays? It's the 21st century. Sheesh.

I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to convey. Let's try and break it down.


To me Saddam was a great guy.

No. he was not.



I mean, he may have done some things, but those were in the past.


You mean the past when he was our friend or the past when he was our enemy?


I think America is the real terrorist threat.

No, but an awesome weapon (the U.S. Military) when inappropiately and misguidedly used could be a real threat to the stability of the US and it's allies.


9-11 was staged.

BINGO! You hit this one on the nose. Not only was it staged. It was planned and rehearsed by the Iraqi, I mean Saudi Terrorist. All the while it was being staged and rehearsed the President was given an intelligence report that stated "Bin Laden/Al Qeada determined to strike in US."



In fact, anything that conservatives say is a total fallacy because they lack logic and any sort of elevated mental capabilities.


You sure are backing this one up. But that's a general statement and not all conservatives lack logic and some do actually have brains.


Heck, they believe in a God. Who does that nowadays?

I could be mistaken but IMO most of the world believes in a supreme being. That would include the Taliban, Muslims, Saddam, Osama Bin Ladin, Liberals, Conversatives, the Moonies, David Koresh, Jim Jones, the Buddists. etc, etc. So, I don't see the point you are trying to make.


It's the 21st century. Sheesh

It is? I better get to bed, it's pass my bedtime. ;)

Phoenix
03-13-2005, 10:13 PM
Amusing post from Ochre. I certainly hope you don't think you're winning an argument with that.

ochre
03-13-2005, 10:17 PM
not even involved in one. Just pointing out the fallacies as I see them.

M2
03-13-2005, 10:24 PM
Amusing post from Ochre. I certainly hope you don't think you're winning an argument with that.

If this were a basketball game, the term we'd use for it would be "facial" and your coach would have found you a cozy spot on the pine where you could hide your head under a towel.

Phoenix
03-13-2005, 10:27 PM
If this were a basketball game, the term we'd use for it would be "facial" and your coach would have found you a cozy spot on the pine where you could hide your head under a towel.

If it were a basketball game I'd have to send in a goon to break an arm.

WVRed
03-13-2005, 10:37 PM
Kim Jon Il says hi. Should we invade? Based on your reasoning, we haves lots and lots of invading to do.

Nah, hes so "ronery";)

CbusRed
03-13-2005, 11:11 PM
I knew it was only a matter of time after a certain poster "left" before he would realize that no one cared and come back to spread his 6th grade Michael Moore logic once again.


Well, at least we had a little over a month of not having to deal with this crap. :rolleyes:

RBA
03-13-2005, 11:21 PM
I knew it was only a matter of time after a certain poster "left" before he would realize that no one cared and come back to spread his 6th grade Michael Moore logic once again.


Well, at least we had a little over a month of not having to deal with this crap. :rolleyes:

I hate to break the news to you. I believe that certain poster did get a good number PM's and emails requesting he come back.

For someone stating "6th grade logic", you sure are acting immature with this post. Why don't you just put him on your ignore list?

I'll take a 6th grade Michael Moore logic over a 3rd Grade Jerry Falwell logic anyday. :D

Dom Heffner
03-13-2005, 11:31 PM
Phoenix, just answer this question: If Bush said that we would call off the invasion if Hussein would disarm, then how is the war just? Answer the question. We knew all about the gassing of his people, the terrible nature of this man, yet Bush's statement indicates that he could continue doing this as long as he disarmed.

Since there were no weapons, how is this war just? It's a smiple question, really, and I would love to hear your side. Convince me. :)

Cedric
03-13-2005, 11:37 PM
I swear I'd take Tris Speaker, Ty Cobb, and Babe Ruth and that'd be the best outfield of all time. You can argue Bonds, Mays, and Ruth all you want and I bet I'd still win.

CbusRed
03-13-2005, 11:39 PM
I swear I'd take Tris Speaker, Ty Cobb, and Babe Ruth and that'd be the best outfield of all time.


minus Babe Ruth

plus Eric Davis!

CbusRed
03-13-2005, 11:40 PM
I hate to break the news to you. I believe that certain poster did get a good number PM's and emails requesting he come back.




I wonder if any of those emails were from people who recieved pictures of dead Iraqi children in their pm box from this certain poster.

Reds4Life
03-13-2005, 11:41 PM
Some folks need to review the new rules.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/announcement.php?f=8

Dom Heffner
03-13-2005, 11:50 PM
CBusRed: Just out of curiosity, were you aware that your signature comes from one of the biggest (and best) Bush bashing CDs?

I really have no idea what your politics are, so it may be obvious, but calling Michael Moore's logic "6th grade," is sort of pot calling kettle black-ish. I'll agree his argument has flaws, but so do most of Bush's.

Cedric
03-13-2005, 11:55 PM
I never quite understood that you shouldn't buy cd's or anything because a band or person might have differing view points from your own. Maybe that's just me though, I value diversity in opinions and respect people's rights to express them.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2005, 11:58 PM
I never quite understood that you shouldn't buy cd's or anything because a band or person might have differing view points from your own. Maybe that's just me though, I value diversity in opinions and respect people's rights to express them.

Ah man, I'm always firing up some Toby Keith before I twirl down to the QuikSak for some Early Times and Newport Menthols.

RBA
03-13-2005, 11:59 PM
I wonder if any of those emails were from people who recieved pictures of dead Iraqi children in their pm box from this certain poster.

Yes, your girlfriend got PM's of dead and maimed Iraqi children. So what? Were you privy to the entire conversation and do you know what context they were sent in?

Do you also think only the "Iraqis who attacked us on 9/11" (as she put it) were the only ones that were killed during the Iraq War?

Cedric
03-14-2005, 12:03 AM
Well Toby Keith is a miserable artist. I just can't come to grips with hating Pearl Jam no matter how much I get sick of Eddie and his views, but does that make me a bad person? Maybe I should sack up and lie to myself and say the art they make is crap, but I won't.

Phoenix
03-14-2005, 12:03 AM
Phoenix, just answer this question: If Bush said that we would call off the invasion if Hussein would disarm, then how is the war just? Answer the question. We knew all about the gassing of his people, the terrible nature of this man, yet Bush's statement indicates that he could continue doing this as long as he disarmed.

Since there were no weapons, how is this war just? It's a smiple question, really, and I would love to hear your side. Convince me. :)

First off, we already know that I am not going to convince you of my side just like you certainly will not convince me of your side. This thread is obviously a re-run of perhaps a thousand that came before it.

Saddam sealed his fate by throwing out the UN weapons inspectors after months of impeding their operations. Saddam never gave the full access that he promised. Inspectors were stopped, denied access, kicked out, and only invited back to begin the charade anew again. As far as the war being "just" it became just after Saddam failed to live up to his commitments of the cease fire agreement from the first gulf war. We were "just" as soon as he began firing at American planes enforcing the no-fly zones protecting the Kurdish north and the Shiite south.

CbusRed
03-14-2005, 12:10 AM
CBusRed: Just out of curiosity, were you aware that your signature comes from one of the biggest (and best) Bush bashing CDs?

I really have no idea what your politics are, so it may be obvious, but calling Michael Moore's logic "6th grade," is sort of pot calling kettle black-ish. I'll agree his argument has flaws, but so do most of Bush's.


Oh I forgot, paying tribute to one of the best rock bands of my generation means I should also support one of the biggest manipulative, lying, ****** bags to ever grace our country's silver screens.

My favorite band of all-time is Pearl Jam, So I guess I should be going out to buy my Bush mask so I can throw it on the ground and stomp on it. :rolleyes:


Personally, I hate it when musicians, or any "star" for that matter, use their fame or social status as a soap box to try to sway public opinion. But being a musician myself, and a music lover, I dont let political messages get in the way of what is truley beautiful about the music that I love. There is alot more to music than lyrics.


I like Nirvana, guess I better shoot myself.
I like Alice in Chains, guess I better overdose on heroine.
I like Queen, guess I better turn gay.
I like the Red Hot Chili Peppers, guess I better play my next show with nothing on but a tube sock around my genitals.
I liked White Zombie, guess I better worship satan.
I like Rush, guess I better move to Canada.



:rolleyes:


To me, it takes a mental midget to be influenced by rockstars when it comes to important issues such as the safety and well-being of our country.

DunnersGrl44
03-14-2005, 12:15 AM
Yes, your girlfriend got PM's of dead and maimed Iraqi children. So what? Were you privy to the entire conversation and do you know what context they were sent in?

Do you also think only the "Iraqis who attacked us on 9/11" (as she put it) were the only ones that were killed during the Iraq War?
Don't bring me into this.
Your a sick little man... and you are proud of it.
And I am ok with that.
But leave me out of your posts.

MWM
03-14-2005, 12:18 AM
So Phoenix, you'd be perfectly OK if we started building up troops in South Korea right now and invaded the North sometime later this year?

Phoenix
03-14-2005, 12:27 AM
So Phoenix, you'd be perfectly OK if we started building up troops in South Korea right now and invaded the North sometime later this year?

Heck no! That ship has sailed, Kim has nukes. I'd pull ALL American troops out right now. We've got 38,000 troops that are in the bulls eye.

RBA
03-14-2005, 12:29 AM
Don't bring me into this.
Your a sick little man... and you are proud of it.
And I am ok with that.
But leave me out of your posts.

Excuse me. But apparently you have a hard time grasping the facts. Facts are that I did not bring you into this. Please review the entire topic once more. It appears the first mentioning or hint of you is from CBus.

DunnersGrl44
03-14-2005, 12:31 AM
Excuse me. But apparently you have a hard time grasping the facts. Facts are that I did not bring you into this. Please review the entire topic once more. It appears the first mentioning or hint of you is from CBus.
Anyone who would PM you and ask for you back is absolutely insane and devoid of any form of education

CbusRed
03-14-2005, 12:33 AM
Excuse me. But apparently you have a hard time grasping the facts. Facts are that I did not bring you into this. Please review the entire topic once more. It appears the first mentioning or hint of you is from CBus.

I have no idea how many people you sent those sick PM's to, I only knew of one, and I didnt even mention her name.



keep spinning.

RBA
03-14-2005, 12:41 AM
I have no idea how many people you sent those sick PM's to, I only knew of one, and I didnt even mention her name.



keep spinning.

I only sent those "pm" to one person. And apparently she has been putting out Misinformation in the contexts they were sent. I wonder how many other people she lied to about the contexts?

DunnersGrl44
03-14-2005, 12:44 AM
I only sent those "pm" to one person. And apparently she has been putting out Misinformation in the contexts they were sent. I wonder how many other people she lied to about the contexts?
were they, or were they not dead children from Iraq?
And why exactly did you send them to me?
I said " go bush"
and you sent me pics of dead children and blamed Bush. Umm... I'm not a liar, and even if i was, i think me being a liar is a little better than a grown man sending pictures of dead children to people they don't know.

RBA
03-14-2005, 12:49 AM
were they, or were they not dead children from Iraq?
And why exactly did you send them to me?
I said " go bush"
and you sent me pics of dead children and blamed Bush. Umm... I'm not a liar, and even if i was, i think me being a liar is a little better than a grown man sending pictures of dead children to people they don't know.

Yes, they are dead children from Iraq. You did not just say go Bush, you said you were for "giving people what they deserve" and I responded with picture of the dead Iraqi children cause by "giving people what they deserve"

Continue to lie and pretend you are a victim of some sick bastard. But I know the truth. I have no respect for you and your lying crap.

Phoenix
03-14-2005, 12:54 AM
Yes, they are dead children from Iraq. You did not just say go Bush, you said you were for "giving people what they deserve" and I responded with picture of the dead Iraqi children cause by "giving people what they deserve"

Continue to lie and pretend you are a victim of some sick bastard. But I know the truth. I have no respect for you and your lying crap.

I'm not sure what the argument is about, but were they pictures of dead children as a result of the American invasion or pictures of dead children from the uncovered Saddam mass graves?

DunnersGrl44
03-14-2005, 01:02 AM
Yes, they are dead children from Iraq. You did not just say go Bush, you said you were for "giving people what they deserve" and I responded with picture of the dead Iraqi children cause by "giving people what they deserve"

Continue to lie and pretend you are a victim of some sick bastard. But I know the truth. I have no respect for you and your lying crap.
Am I sad that those children are dead. Absolutely not.
I am not a liar. A lot of American Children died at 9-11. There are no children that deseve to die. But if it happens in order for the USA to come out on top. I don't care. Your in the army or what not right?
Would you kill an Iraqi child if he came walking up to you with a bomb strapped to his waist. Yes you would.
Quit the holier than thou nonsense. It's rediculous.
and it's funny how you show pity for those poor children in Iraq. Downloading their pictures and showing them to others. Thats real productive. Tell me, do you show your children these pictures?

RBA
03-14-2005, 01:03 AM
I'm not sure what the argument is about, but were they pictures of dead children as a result of the American invasion or pictures of dead children from the uncovered Saddam mass graves?


They were pictures of dead Iraqi children as result of the American Invasion. The context was a certain posters assertion she was for giving people what they deserve. I sent the pictures and asked that poster if these children got what they deserved?

She responded with calling me a Democratic ******bag and questioning my manhood along with saying somethng about living at the park. Along with other snotty remarks. Apparently she doesn't like to see the results of the war she supported.

But you make a good point. Many children and innocent Iraqis suffered (far greater) under Saddam.

Cedric
03-14-2005, 01:09 AM
Man this thread has sure gotten personal fast. I'm not moderator but I cringe seeing people bash each other in public like this.

RBA
03-14-2005, 01:10 AM
Am I sad that those children are dead. Absolutely not.
I am not a liar. A lot of American Children died at 9-11. There are no children that deseve to die. But if it happens in order for the USA to come out on top. I don't care. Your in the army or what not right?
Would you kill an Iraqi child if he came walking up to you with a bomb strapped to his waist. Yes you would.
Quit the holier than thou nonsense. It's rediculous.
and it's funny how you show pity for those poor children in Iraq. Downloading their pictures and showing them to others. Thats real productive. Tell me, do you show your children these pictures?

Now we are going down a road in which I can't really respond because some here have labeled me disloyal for saying what I believe.

But I can tell you those children did not have explosives attached to them and were not involved in any type of military/terrorist action against Americans. They were kill as a result of a bombing raid conduted at the worng coordinates.

I have not showed my children those pictures. My children are no concern of yours.

I'm not in the Army. ;)

DunnersGrl44
03-14-2005, 01:13 AM
Well i don't know about anyone else, but I don't think a parent is considered fit if they keep pictures of dead children on their computers. I wish your children the best of luck, they are going to need it coming from your household. You right, your children are no concern of mine. None at all. They will be the worlds problem some day. But not anywhere around me.

MWM
03-14-2005, 01:18 AM
Heck no! That ship has sailed, Kim has nukes. I'd pull ALL American troops out right now. We've got 38,000 troops that are in the bulls eye.

So, let me make sure I undersand what you're saying. According to how I'm reading you is that your proposed foreign policy would be to identify those who may, at some point in the future, become a threat to our secruity, invade their country before they become this threat, and remove them from power - all this based on the notion that they "may" be a threat at some point in the future.

But once we've pissed them off enough and they actually become a REAL threat and put us in danger, we should run away because the "ship has sailed." We could call it the Scott Farcus Doctrine.

That's basically the logic you've put forth in this thread.

RBA
03-14-2005, 01:19 AM
Well i don't know about anyone else, but I don't think a parent is considered fit if they keep pictures of dead children on their computers. I wish your children the best of luck, they are going to need it coming from your household. You right, your children are no concern of mine. None at all. They will be the worlds problem some day. But not anywhere around me.

Come again? You hit a new low for this board. I sent you a couple of current news photos at the time and nothing more. You trying to portray me as a sick and unfit parent is your own warped imagination.

MWM
03-14-2005, 01:21 AM
I've met RBA personally. He's a good man and I think his children have nothing to worry about. That's a pretty low blow and the lowest I've seen on this thread, or any thread for that matter, in a long time.

DunnersGrl44
03-14-2005, 01:26 AM
I've met RBA personally. He's a good man and I think his children have nothing to worry about. That's a pretty low blow and the lowest I've seen on this thread, or any thread for that matter, in a long time.
Well, I have not met RBA and i hope I never do. Have you been reading this thread at all... or are you just skipping the fact that he brought me into all of this, and then started personally attacking me. It's called a Private Message for a reason, he told the entire thread what i wrote to him. I know Cbus personally, outside of this board. We had a relationship and we talked about the board. I can not help what CBus mentions, hell, I didn't even know until this thread that RBA was Bigredhotpotato. I had nothing to do with this thread at all. I was brought into it and i defended myself. I do not regret one word that I have said. Simply defending myself.

RBA
03-14-2005, 01:28 AM
Well, back to the potato patch. I'm sorry to send those pictures to you DunnerGirl. I thought they were appropiate at the time (in it's context). But I guess I made a mistake. I wish we could be friends. But that's going to take some time.


Please read again. The PM's with you were brought up first by CBUS. You are the only one I remember sending any type of pictures like that too. And I was responding to that.

DunnersGrl44
03-14-2005, 01:31 AM
Well, back to the potato patch. I'm sorry to send those pictures to you DunnerGirl. I thought they were appropiate at the time. But I guess I made a mistake. I wish we could be friends. But that's going to take some time.
Dont try and turn me into the bad guy. You are the one in the wrong and you always are. You don't want to be my friend, and I sure as hell don't want to be yours. Time, you and I will never have the time to be friends. Cause your friendship is not something that I would ever value.

RBA
03-14-2005, 01:33 AM
Dont try and turn me into the bad guy. You are the one in the wrong and you always are. You don't want to be my friend, and I sure as hell don't want to be yours. Time, you and I will never have the time to be friends. Cause your friendship is not something that I would ever value.

God Bless You.

CbusRed
03-14-2005, 01:36 AM
Oh to be 20 again..

I apologize everyone,

I apologize to DG for "bringing her into this"

and I apologize to RBA for his parenting being attacked.

for the record RBA, putting all political disagreements aside, I have absolutley no doubt in my mind that you are a good parent. And I also thank you for your service to our country.



I think this would be a great time to end the current progression of this thread.

CbusRed
03-14-2005, 01:46 AM
and also, I still think Eric Davis belongs in the best outfield of all time.

Johnny Footstool
03-14-2005, 01:51 AM
Worst thread ever.

And it's a shame, too, because the original topic seemed like an interesting point of discussion.

The Baumer
03-14-2005, 04:48 AM
The war of man against machine raged on through the early 70s. You don't remember because back then it was only a prophecy, but now, in the future, the past has occurred.

paintmered
03-14-2005, 07:07 AM
And after round 32,503, the score remains

Liberals - 0
Conservatives - 0


I'm going to spell this out one more time for everyone. If you cannot post constructively and with respect, then you will not be posting at all. If there was any way of getting the rules changed for the more restrictive, this is the way to do it.