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RBA
03-31-2005, 06:37 PM
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Vatican source: Pope given last rites

Ailing pontiff suffers from high fever with urinary tract infection




VATICAN CITY (CNN) -- Pope John Paul II was given the last rites of the Roman Catholic Church late Thursday night as his health deteriorated, a Vatican source has told CNN.

The sacrament does not necessarily mean that the pope is dying. Last rites -- also known as the sacrament of anointing the sick -- are commonly given to people who are seriously ill as well. The pope received the sacrament after he was shot by a would-be assassin in 1981.

The pope is suffering from a high fever caused by a urinary tract infection, the Vatican confirmed earlier Thursday -- one day after revealing he had been put on a nasal feeding tube for nutrition.

The pope is taking antibiotics, a Vatican spokesman said.

Medical sources at Gemelli Hospital in Rome, where the pope has been hospitalized twice since February, told CNN that no provisions are being made for the pope to be readmitted for treatment.

Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said in a statement released Wednesday: "To improve his calorific intake and promote an efficient recovery of his strength, nutrition via the positioning of a nasal-gastric tube has begun."

The pope underwent a tracheotomy February 24 and still has a tube inserted in his windpipe to help his breathing.

Earlier Wednesday, the pope appeared at his studio window and blessed the thousands of faithful in St. Peter's Square.

He appeared alert during the four-minute appearance, which drew cheers from the crowd gathered beneath his window.

He raised his hand in blessing and made the sign of the cross as a Vatican official read greetings and prayers.

A microphone was raised to his face as he tried to speak, but the words were not clear.

The pope has spent a total of 28 days in two stints at Gemelli hospital in Rome in the past two months.

Nicola Cerbino, a spokesman at the hospital, said Wednesday that there was no plan to hospitalize the pope.

On Monday the pope skipped the post-Easter Angelus prayer for the first time in his 26-year papacy.

The 84-year-old pope suffers from a number of chronic illnesses, including crippling hip and knee ailments, and Parkinson's disease, a progressive neurological disorder that can make breathing difficult.

Throughout his various illnesses and brushes with death, even after the assassination attempt, the pope always said his life was in God's hands.

CNN's Alessio Vinci contributed to this report.



Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press (http://www.cnn.com/interactive_legal.html#AP) contributed to this report.

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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/31/pope1/index.html

Unassisted
03-31-2005, 06:55 PM
Heard elsewhere that Vatican police have blocked off access to the Vatican.

Reds/Flyers Fan
03-31-2005, 10:45 PM
May God bless Pope JP II. My prayers are with him.

CbusRed
03-31-2005, 11:13 PM
As a catholic, this is very sad.. But I also think it will be very interesting to see how things transpire when a pope dies.

Reds/Flyers Fan
03-31-2005, 11:19 PM
As a catholic, this is very sad.. But I also think it will be very interesting to see how things transpire when a pope dies.

Read Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons," the prelude to "DaVinci Code." Great book and it does as good a job as any describing the process of electing a new pope. The world's Cardinals are actually locked in the Sistine Chapel until a unanimous decision is made.

Unassisted
03-31-2005, 11:19 PM
As a catholic, this is very sad.. But I also think it will be very interesting to see how things transpire when a pope dies.You're too young to remember, but I've seen it happen twice. There is no entity that keeps its cards closer to the vest (vestments?) than a papal conclave. You'd be more likely to figure out Dan O'Brien's personnel master plan than figure out who the college of cardinals will choose.

CbusRed
03-31-2005, 11:25 PM
when was the last time we lost a pope? I certainly dont remember it, maybe I wasnt born yet, was it before '81?

pedro
03-31-2005, 11:29 PM
here's a list for last 200 years

1978 was a crazy year for popes.

# Pius VII, 1800-23
# Leo XII, 1823-29
# Pius VIII, 1829-30
# Gregory XVI, 1831-46
# Pius IX, 1846-78
# Leo XIII, 1878-1903
# St. Pius X, 1903-14
# Benedict XV, 1914-22
# Pius XI, 1922-1939
# Pius XII, 1939-1958
# John XXIII, 1958-1963
# Paul VI, 1963-1978
# John Paul I, 1978
# John Paul II, 1978

CbusRed
03-31-2005, 11:35 PM
Im actually looking forward to this. And I dont feel bad saying it, because I dont really see this as a tragedy. Pope JPII's time has come, and I think that is pretty much accepted. Historical events always peak my interest, and since this is something I have never experienced before, I am kind of excited for it.

KronoRed
04-01-2005, 04:44 AM
Sad news :(

RedFanAlways1966
04-01-2005, 09:23 AM
1978 was a crazy year for popes.

# Paul VI, 1963-1978
# John Paul I, 1978
# John Paul II, 1978

I remember it well. I am not Catholic, but it was big news to me (and millions of others) when Pope Paul VI passed away. I was 12-years-old and it really caught my interest. I can remember watching the chimney at the Vatican to see if a certain color of smoke came out of it (which meant that they had selected the next Pope). And then Pope John Paul I died in his sleep about 39 days after that! So the process happened all over again. IIRC it was during the summertime. And this was when we only had 4 channels on TV (incl. PBS!). Amazing when we think how much technology (and many other things) has changed since the last time a Pope was elected by the Cardinals.

For anyone who hasn't had the chance, you should read up on Pope John Paul II. He was a truly amazing man. His life before being named Pope is a pretty good story. Living in Poland during Nazi occupation, the death of his older brother who he idolized, etc. The man was incredible.

Chip R
04-01-2005, 09:59 AM
I remember it well. I am not Catholic, but it was big news to me (and millions of others) when Pope Paul VI passed away. I was 12-years-old and it really caught my interest. I can remember watching the chimney at the Vatican to see if a certain color of smoke came out of it (which meant that they had selected the next Pope). And then Pope John Paul I died in his sleep about 39 days after that! So the process happened all over again. IIRC it was during the summertime. And this was when we only had 4 channels on TV (incl. PBS!). Amazing when we think how much technology (and many other things) has changed since the last time a Pope was elected by the Cardinals.
I remember when Paul VI and JP I passed. IIRC, John XXIII passed right about the time I was born. In 1978 they didn't have 24 hour news channels covering this stuff so I don't think they had the analysis that I'm sure they will have now. When JP II does pass, it's going to be very interesting to see what happens. I'm not Catholic but I think JP II is a great man and seems very down to earth. Whoever follows him is going to have very large shoes to fill.

Red Thunder
04-01-2005, 10:55 AM
Im actually looking forward to this. And I dont feel bad saying it, because I dont really see this as a tragedy. Pope JPII's time has come, and I think that is pretty much accepted. Historical events always peak my interest, and since this is something I have never experienced before, I am kind of excited for it.

I guess you'll also be "excited" when a close member of your family dies, as it will be a historical moment in your life which you have not yet experienced before. Maybe your friends will be excited then as well, to see how you react and how life goes on.

CbusRed
04-01-2005, 10:59 AM
I guess you'll also be "excited" when a close member of your family dies, as it will be a historical moment in your life which you have not yet experienced before. Maybe your friends will be excited then as well, to see how you react and how life goes on.

Yeah, sorry, I didnt know the pope was your dad.

grow up. Try reading my other post before getting your panties in a tangle. I allready said this is very sad. But it is also inevitible.

For the record, I have experienced loss, very close in my family. sudden and tragic loss. This is neither sudden, or tragic. Sure its sad, but its also a new beginning. quit being such a downer.

Red Thunder
04-01-2005, 12:07 PM
Yeah, sorry, I didnt know the pope was your dad.

grow up. Try reading my other post before getting your panties in a tangle. I allready said this is very sad. But it is also inevitible.


You need to grow up. Especially with your history to troll any political thread.

I have read all your posts in this thread but to me you still came across lacking sensibility.

CbusRed
04-01-2005, 12:13 PM
You need to grow up. Especially with your history to troll any political thread.

I have read all your posts in this thread but to me you still came across lacking sensibility.

LOL, I see how it is, you think im a troll so you immediatley come in and bash all my posts. Just as I suspected... Someone trying to jump on the bandwagon.

Worry about yourself, not me.

Redsfaithful
04-01-2005, 12:43 PM
Worry about yourself, not me.

Heh. Wise words.

Might even apply to your crusade against political threads.

paintmered
04-01-2005, 12:48 PM
Cbus, if you wish to address someone personally, do it via PM. I don't want to see it anymore here.

RF, if you wish to respond to Cbus directly, do it via PM.

I'm sick of meaningful threads being derailed and I'm going to start deleting/editing posts if I see anyone attempt it.

Redsfaithful
04-01-2005, 12:51 PM
Will do, my apologies.

Rojo
04-01-2005, 01:34 PM
Not a big fan of this Pope but I wish him the best. I grew up Catholic and the passing of Paul IV was a big deal and the passing of John Paul I was a shocker.

Personally I hope they get someone as good as John XXIII.

paintmered
04-01-2005, 01:45 PM
Whatever.

You didnt even address the one person who started the personal talk.


Craig, if you have a problem with my actions, PM me. This thread is not the place for it.

Redsland
04-01-2005, 02:24 PM
WLW just said he has died.

CbusRed
04-01-2005, 02:27 PM
Craig, if you have a problem with my actions, PM me. This thread is not the place for it.

OK Dad! :thumbup:

Same to ya!

CbusRed
04-01-2005, 02:27 PM
WLW just said he has died.

I hope its not true, but if it is, R.I.P.

RosieRed
04-01-2005, 02:35 PM
CNN is also saying he died.

RIP John Paul II.

RBA
04-01-2005, 02:40 PM
CNN.com has removed the banner. The banner said according to Italian News Media the Pope had died. CNN said they were working to confrim it.

That has been removed.

KronoRed
04-01-2005, 02:40 PM
Rip :( if he's died

RBA
04-01-2005, 02:43 PM
Some Media reports say Pope has died, others maintain ''He is Dying''

Some Media reports say Pope has died, others maintain ''He is Dying''
No confirmation from Vatican
Friday, April 1, 2005

There is confusion this afternoon at the Vatican. Some unconfirmed Italian media reports say the Pope has passed away, others say his electrocardiogram has ''gone flat,'' but there is still no official confirmation from Vatican sources.

Sadly, for Roman Catholics and others around the world, the end has been in sight for several hours, after Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls released the following medical bulletin:

‘ ‘The general conditions and cardiocirculatory conditions of the Holy Father have further worsened. A gradual worsening of arterial hypotension has been noted and breathing has become shallow. The clinical picture indicates cardiocirculatory and renal insufficiency.

The biological parameters are notably compromised. The Holy Father -- with visible participation -- is joining in the continual prayers of those assisting him.’ ’

Navarro-Valls also said earlier that the pope's blood pressure was unstable and that the Pope asked for the Holy Scriptures to be read to him.

The pope had a number of visitors earlier today, including the Vatican's secretary of state and several cardinals. Navarro-Valls said the pope remembered that today was Friday, the day he traditionally follows the ritual of the Stations of the Cross and he meditated on that ritual.

At 7 p.m. local time Friday, a Mass was being held in honor of the pontiff at St. John Lateran Church, delivered by Camillo Ruini, vicar of Rome.

‘ ‘ In this moment, he is more than ever our pope -- the vicar of Christ --- who livens us with his passion,’ ‘ Ruini said.

At the Mass Friday night, Ruini said the pope ‘ ‘is facing the most difficult test of his long and extraordinary life. He is living with that incredible serenity and he has abandoned himself to the hands of Christ, with whom he has always lived, worked, suffered and had joy.’ ‘

Italians, Catholics and the faithful the world over have been asked to intensify their prayers for the Holy Father in light of his declining health.

In another development, the papal press office issued a list of 17 new papal appointments, including bishops and archbishops, and a list of six archbishops who resigned.

The appointments and the resignations were previously approved by the pope, it said.

In Ottawa, Catholics attending daily mass at St. Patrick’s Basilica expressed mixed emotions. Some told CFRA News they knew the Pope’s death was imminent, and they felt extreme sorrow. But they also said he had done his duty in service to God and that his time on earth was ending.

It’s expected there will be extraordinary prayer services in the capital region this evening and through the weekend. CFRA News will broadcast that information as it becomes available.

http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=2&nid=26462

CbusRed
04-01-2005, 02:44 PM
Reuters has reported it

traderumor
04-01-2005, 02:45 PM
Didn't news reports already erroneously say he was dead just a few months ago?

RBA
04-01-2005, 02:47 PM
Just for the record, I didn't change the title of the thread.

Chip R
04-01-2005, 02:49 PM
Just for the record, I didn't change the title of the thread.
I did because I thought it'd be more accurate to reflect his current condition - or lack thereof.

CbusRed
04-01-2005, 02:49 PM
Just for the record, I didn't change the title of the thread.

Yeah, some of the mods think its cool to go around editing things that they didnt write...




For the record, the rueters story I read simply said that the Italian Media is reporting that the pope has died. Sounds like a big game of telephone to me. Im sure it will all get worked out shortly.

M2
04-01-2005, 02:56 PM
Not a big fan of this Pope but I wish him the best. I grew up Catholic and the passing of Paul IV was a big deal and the passing of John Paul I was a shocker.

Personally I hope they get someone as good as John XXIII.

I read something a while back on papal succession that suggested the church tends to react to the last Pope. Paul VI, who literally almost saw the Americas chuck the church because he was such a twit, was the conservative reaction to John XXIII (though my dad makes a good argument that Mass should be held mostly in Latin with the priest facing in the same direction as the congregation). JPI supposedly was looking to make headway on issues like birth control, divroce, female clergy and allowing priests to marry. On the plus side, JPII did manage to quell the brewing anti-Rome rebellion that had formed during Paul's papacy and he made extraordinary efforts to reach out to the billion-plus worldwide Catholics. Yet obviously he also put the lid on one of the church's finest traditions, debate, and in his later years it created a knee-jerk, I'd argue Protestant, papacy. Hopefully the church reacts to that and elects someone willing to tackle the modern world (someone from South or Central America ideally).

Unassisted
04-01-2005, 02:59 PM
Vatican is denying that he has died.

RedFanAlways1966
04-01-2005, 03:13 PM
Vatican is denying that he has died.

Evidently they tap his forehead with a silver hammer. They ask, "Are you dead?" If they tap and he does not answer three times in a row, then he is declared dead. I just heard this on the radio.

traderumor
04-01-2005, 03:31 PM
Evidently they tap his forehead with a silver hammer. They ask, "Are you dead?" If they tap and he does not answer three times in a row, then he is declared dead. I just heard this on the radio.
:laugh:

paintmered
04-01-2005, 03:33 PM
It's tradition. It was probably the most effective tool they had for determining this kind of thing over a thousand years ago.

Johnny Footstool
04-01-2005, 03:50 PM
Death is one thing that we all share in common. Death is not a tragedy in and of itself; tragedy occurs when lives are wasted -- cut short before people have a chance to accomplish all they could. While we are sad to lose someone, we should remember all the good they were able to accomplish in their lives.

Big Donkey
04-01-2005, 03:50 PM
The latest via the news feed I have at work says that the news reporting his death originated from Sky Italia TV who said his electrocardiogram had gone flat, and that he had no heart or brain activity. A Vatican official responded by saying, "there is no such machine in the papal apartments." A Vatican spokesperson has said that his condition is "noticeably compromised", and that he is breathing shallowly and suffering from worsening blood pressure, as well as heart and kidney problems. There are Cardinals at his bedside now, preparing their final goodbyes.

Rojo
04-01-2005, 04:10 PM
JPI supposedly was looking to make headway on issues like birth control, divroce, female clergy and allowing priests to marry. On the plus side, JPII did manage to quell the brewing anti-Rome rebellion that had formed during Paul's papacy and he made extraordinary efforts to reach out to the billion-plus worldwide Catholics.

I've always wondered about JPI's short reign and analogized the Papal ascendency with that of the Kremlin's: Brezhnev's conservative reign was followed by the reformer Andropov, who, in turn was followed by the Brezhnev-disciple Chernenko. Chenenko lasted less than a year and was followed by Andropov-protege Gorbachev. The reformers won out in Moscow, the reactionaries in the Vatican.

JPII, IMO, could have embraced liberation theology in Central America without giving up moral clarity on the Church's attitude toward the Soviet Union. World communism was dying anyhow.

Chip R
04-02-2005, 04:00 PM
It's official now. :(

SandyD
04-02-2005, 04:09 PM
Death is one thing that we all share in common. Death is not a tragedy in and of itself; tragedy occurs when lives are wasted -- cut short before people have a chance to accomplish all they could. While we are sad to lose someone, we should remember all the good they were able to accomplish in their lives.


I agree, JF. Very healthy view, in my mind.

As for the Pope, he's earned his rest. Go in peace, JPII.

KronoRed
04-02-2005, 04:45 PM
RIP Pope :(

RosieRed
04-02-2005, 05:20 PM
I am not Catholic, and disagree with some aspects of the religion. But I have a lot of respect for John Paul II and what he accomplished in his life. I hope he rests in peace, as he certainly deserves to do.

jmcclain19
04-02-2005, 05:49 PM
Update on who the Cardinals will select as the next Pope

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-next-pope,0,636413,print.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines


By RACHEL ZOLL
AP Religion Writer

April 1, 2005, 6:03 PM EST

Pope John Paul II has named nearly every cardinal who will elect his successor, but that does not mean the next pontiff will be just like him.

The world's cardinals hold diverse and often conflicting views about what are the most pressing issues for the Roman Catholic Church and will likely seek out a leader with different qualities than John Paul's.

"The cardinals, when they come in the conclave, they follow their conscience and they see what's useful for the church today," said Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels, in a recent interview with The Associated Press. "There is not that kind of nepotism in the church -- 'I appointed all the cardinals so there will be exactly my copy.' No. We are a bit more intelligent than that."

Among the cardinals mentioned as potential future popes are Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a German who is the Vatican's doctrinal watchdog; Brazilian Cardinal Claudio Hummes; and Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras. Others also considered possible successors to John Paul include Cardinal Francis Arinze, a Vatican-based Nigerian; Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Austria and Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi of Italy.

The next pope will confront a range of challenges, including scientific advances that conflict with Catholic teaching; the decline of religious observance in Europe and North America; an explosion in church membership in the Third World; and a dwindling number of priests in the West.

He will be taking over at a time of sometimes deadly interfaith tensions, and during a period of enormous global unrest, as world leaders confront terrorism in ways the church does not always condone.

Yet, when the cardinals decide who among them can handle these issues, some of their concerns may seem mundane.

After a quarter-century of John Paul's strong personality and hands-on management style, some want Vatican officials to stay out of the day-to-day operations of dioceses. Others believe officials in Rome should stay deeply involved to crack down on dissent.

Some church leaders believe cardinals and bishops should have more say in church governance, while others think that power should remain mostly with the pope.

In simple terms, the new pope could be the kind of boss the cardinals want for themselves.

They also will look for a man with a strong command of English and Italian, to communicate with the world's Catholics and with church officials in charge of the day-to-day operations of the Vatican.

Age may also be a factor. John Paul's papacy of 26 years has been one of the longest in church history, and the cardinals may back an older candidate as a "transitional pope" -- someone whose tenure may not be quite so long.

"Most cardinals don't think a really long papacy will be a good idea," said James Hitchcock, a historian and church expert at Saint Louis University. "But with modern medicine if they elect a man who is 70, he could live until he was 95."

Geography also will influence the vote. John Paul was the first non-Italian pope in 455 years. Vatican observers disagree over whether there will be pressure in the conclave to return the papacy to an Italian, or whether they will want to send a signal to the burgeoning ranks of Catholics in the Third World by choosing an African or Latin American candidate.

"This is one of the real dividing lines they're going to have to consider," said David Gibson, a former Vatican Radio newsman and author of "The Coming Catholic Church."

"If they just go back to an elderly Italian, it will be a kind of let down from the intensity of this papacy. Or they may say, `Look, let's keep this interest going, we went behind the Iron Curtain last time, let's go to Latin America this time.'"

Although there are many unknowns going into a conclave, church experts agree on at least one thing: There is almost no chance the next pope will be an American. The cardinals will not want to give the impression that the church is in the hands of the world's lone superpower.

And Catholics clinging to a shred of hope that the church will make celibacy optional for priests or allow women to be ordained will probably be disappointed.

"You're not going to see a liberal in that sense. There really aren't liberals like that," Gibson said. "I think there's some room for discussion on celibacy. And that is simply what it would be: discussion."

Danneels noted another reason that the next pope will not be a carbon copy of John Paul: there is no one exactly like him in the College of Cardinals.

"My impression with the pope is he combines two qualities that you rarely find together in one person," Danneels said. "He's a leader. ... At the same time, he's a very warm person."

jmcclain19
04-02-2005, 05:53 PM
More about how the process actually works


By Keith Miller
Correspondent
NBC News

There is a system here that has been in place for a long, long time. This is an ancient and a massive bureaucracy presiding over basically a billion people.

What they have in place is to ensure the smooth transition of the church and more importantly, the smooth transition to the next leader.

Basically, they have it written in stone that upon the pope’s death, his funeral is to take place between four and to six days following his death.

There will be a funeral Mass conducted in St. Peter’s Square to allow the greatest number of people to attend in person. If the weather is extremely bad they would move it inside the basilica, but that is not expected.

The number of people that would attend would certainly exceed 100,000 people. St. Peter’s Square can hold that, and some more. There will be standing-room only.

That would be followed by nine days of mourning. That’s an official period of time of reflection, thinking back upon the papacy of John Paul II, and also thinking forward to where the Catholic Church and its flock are heading.

What is the procedure for electing the next pope?
Then, perhaps the most important moment after the death of the pope will be the Conclave. The Conclave is the procedure for electing the next pope. That has to happen no less than 15 days, and no more than 20 days, after the death of the pope. That is nothing less than 15 days out of respect to the previous pope, and no more than 20 days, so there is no delay in the process.

We are really dealing with a worldwide church now, so that it also gives time for cardinals to come and assemble from across the earth.

At the moment, there are 183 cardinals, or as they call them, “Princes of the Church.” Out of that number, 117 are eligible to vote for the next pope. The eligibility is based strictly on age. Since this pope came into office, he passed a church law that no one over the age of 80 can vote. At the moment, there are 66 cardinals are over the age of 80. Some of them won’t be attending the Conclave, or will be coming to the Vatican, because they are also frail or in ill health, like the pope.

So, there are 117 electors that will be choosing the next pope.

One interesting thing about the Conclave is that the word actually means "locked up" in Latin. The idea is that you lock these men up until they make a decision. The reason they had this initially was that during the Conclaves of old, the churchmen would gather together in a palace somewhere and be very comfortable – they would be fed and housed rather luxuriously. So, they would never make a decision because they weren’t interested in going anywhere else.

At one point in Italy they ran on so long -- for years -- that residents of a local village where they were staying ended up tearing off the roof of the palace to expose the cardinals to the elements and forcing them to make a decision.

So, there is some logic behind this ancient ritual. The idea is to get them to get moving because the church is without a pope, without someone sitting on the throne of St. Peter. So, the Conclave is intended to push them along in that process as delicately as possible.

What happens with the actual voting and sending out a signal via a plume of smoke out of the Vatican?

After any inconclusive vote they burn the ballots in a fireplace and add a chemical which turns the smoke black. But, if in fact they have elected a pope, then they will also burn the secret ballots, but without the chemical, and the smoke will come from the Sistine Chapel as white. That will alert the city of Rome, and indeed the world, that we have a pope.

Mind you, there have been instances in the past on an overcast day that the white smoke has looked black and people have said, "Oh, we don’t have a pope." And on other days when it’s been a dark, cloudy day, the black smoke has looked white. So, it is not a particularly fool-proof method.

It is about 15 minutes after the smoke appears that an announcement would be made on who is the next pope.

One last thing that I think is fascinating is that once the pope is elected and his name has been revealed to the College of Cardinals assembled in the Sistine Chapel, he goes to what is called the “Room of Tears.” It is a room where they have a number of different-size cassocks for the newly elected pope to put on before he meets the people of Rome and the world.

They call it the “Room of Tears” because several times newly elected popes have entered there and broken down in tears, realizing the responsibility that they have and the enormous burden they have just taken on to represent God on earth.

For many it has proved too much emotionally, momentarily, but nonetheless, too much. Subsequently, this small cloister, off the Sistine Chapel is now known unofficially among the Vatican hierarchy as the “Room of Tears.”

Falls City Beer
04-02-2005, 07:00 PM
:laugh:


I'm not a Catholic, but is it really in good form to laugh at one of their traditions, particularly in a thread concerning the death of their pontiff?

I mean, it's not like evangelical Protestants don't have some soft spots we could push on. Shall we?

RedsBaron
04-02-2005, 07:10 PM
I'm not Catholic and I profoundly disagree with much of Catholicism, but I regard John Paul II to have been a giant of the Twentieth Century. By all accounts I've read, Pius XII failed miserably in dealing with one of the Twentieth Century's two great plagues, Naziism, but John Paul II heroically contended against that century's other plague, Communism, even taking a bullet for his troubles.
As for John Paul II's theology and its effects upon Catholicism, that is a matter for Catholics to resolve.
R.I.P.

traderumor
04-02-2005, 07:20 PM
I'm not a Catholic, but is it really in good form to laugh at one of their traditions, particularly in a thread concerning the death of their pontiff?

I mean, it's not like evangelical Protestants don't have some soft spots we could push on. Shall we?

FCB,

I'm pretty sure that RFA was making a joke, which is what I laughed at. Please find someone else to pick a fight with, cuz I'm not biting.

Red Thunder
04-02-2005, 07:29 PM
I'm pretty sure that RFA was making a joke ....

No, it's the actual procedure which originated centuries ago. It just wasn't changed and seems laughable now, but it's part of a tradition. The actual death is testified by a doctor of course.

SunDeck
04-02-2005, 10:18 PM
I always told people who asked if I practiced the faith that I'd go to church if the pope wanted me there. Yet, even I got a twinge today when I heard he had died.

traderumor
04-02-2005, 11:18 PM
No, it's the actual procedure which originated centuries ago. It just wasn't changed and seems laughable now, but it's part of a tradition. The actual death is testified by a doctor of course.
http://www.heraldonline.com/24hour/world/story/2276505p-10458810c.html

The camerlengo, now Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo of Spain, must then verify the death - a process which in the past was done by striking the forehead of the pope with a silver hammer. The camerlengo then calls out to the pope three times by his baptismal name - Karol, Karol, Karol. When the pope does not respond, the camerlengo then announces "the pope is dead."

I found this, doesn't seem like the silver hammer is used any more, but just read the post as someone making a joke, which in hindsight, would have been inappropriate in the first place. I will go now.

Mutaman
04-03-2005, 04:00 AM
I'm not a Catholic, but is it really in good form to laugh at one of their traditions, particularly in a thread concerning the death of their pontiff?

I mean, it's not like evangelical Protestants don't have some soft spots we could push on. Shall we?


Is it just me or is anybody else starting to get a little tired of religion. At least we've seen Trade Rumor's true colors.

traderumor
04-03-2005, 08:57 AM
Is it just me or is anybody else starting to get a little tired of religion. At least we've seen Trade Rumor's true colors.

Do you feel better?

GAC
04-03-2005, 09:26 AM
There isn't an evangelical, even though they have vast theological differences with catholism, who isn't sadden by the Pope's passing. I felt the same with Mother Theresa.

Chip R
04-03-2005, 10:38 AM
Is it just me or is anybody else starting to get a little tired of religion. At least we've seen Trade Rumor's true colors.
Knock that crap off. If I see it again, you will suffer the consequences.

MWM
04-03-2005, 01:13 PM
Knock that crap off. If I see it again, you will suffer the consequences.

What about freedom of speech and the consitution? :)

Mutaman
04-03-2005, 02:52 PM
Knock that crap off. If I see it again, you will suffer the consequences.

Is it ok to use the word "crap"?

BoydsOfSummer
04-03-2005, 07:07 PM
I'm agnostic. I find the whole thing absolutely fascinating. I was 12 back in 1978 when it happened last,it was fascinating then also. While I have no use for religion,I do admire the faith involved. For those in mourning,my condolences.

Raisor
04-03-2005, 07:30 PM
I don't feel sad for Carol Wojtyla at all. He's in a far better place now. I do feel sad for the 700 million+ Catholics in the world, who've lost a great leader.

RedFanAlways1966
04-04-2005, 09:56 AM
I found this, doesn't seem like the silver hammer is used any more, but just read the post as someone making a joke, which in hindsight, would have been inappropriate in the first place. I will go now.

No biggie at all, tr. It sounds like a joke. I wondered the same when I first heard the story.

You have shown your true colors here plenty of times... we know that you are not the belittling or trouble-making sort. You are one of the last people here that I would think to make light of fun of another's religion.

:)

traderumor
04-04-2005, 01:28 PM
No biggie at all, tr. It sounds like a joke. I wondered the same when I first heard the story.

You have shown your true colors here plenty of times... we know that you are not the belittling or trouble-making sort. You are one of the last people here that I would think to make light of fun of another's religion.

:)Thanks, RFA :beerme:

SunDeck
04-07-2005, 05:01 PM
Thanks, RFA :beerme:
That's nice.
FWIW, I read it and thought, "Yeah, that sounds like something we would do."

It's a wonderfully rich, if sometimes comical tapestry of rituals that Catholics live by. In fact, the reason I could never just pick another faith was that I was raised in old churches, with strange statues and gothic, arcane rituals and would find anything else unbearable.

Walking rosary on the the steps at Imaculata, keeping a "Mary in the bathtub" in your yard, praying at the grotto before a big game, genuflecting, "emergency" baptismal crucifixes, that thing that looks like a microphone for shaking holy water at people...who can deny we've got plenty for people to wonder about?