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Unassisted
04-12-2005, 06:27 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/3534808?print=true

Poll shows mixed reviews about gays in sports

Associated Press

NEW YORK (AP) - A majority of Americans believe there is nothing wrong with openly gay male athletes participating in sports, but nearly 24 percent think an openly gay athlete would hurt their team, according to an NBC/USA Network poll.

The mixed results of the survey on American attitudes toward gay athletes appear in the latest issue of Sports Illustrated, which hits newsstands on Wednesday. Of the 979 people interviewed, 86 percent agreed it is OK for openly gay men to play sports, but some seemed to back off when asked if that could hurt their team. "It was like, I'm OK with this, but if you press me, I have some doubts," said Doug Schoen, whose firm, Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates, conducted the poll.

The views of athletes also seem to be mixed when they are asked about the issue. When Esera Tuaolo came out after his NFL playing career ended, Sterling Sharpe said his former teammate was smart to hide his sexuality.

"Had he come out on a Monday, with Wednesday, Thursday and Friday practices, he'd have never gotten to the other team," Sharpe said.

But Cincinnati Reds outfielder Ken Griffey Jr. said he wouldn't have a problem accepting a gay teammate.

"Wouldn't bother me at all. If you can play, you can play," he said.

In another mixed result from the poll, 79 percent of respondents agreed Americans are more accepting of gays in sports today than they were 20 years ago. But 62 percent agreed the reason there is so little coverage of gays in sports is that America is not ready to accept gay athletes.

Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates conducted interviews among the general population from March 18-21. The margin of error sampling is +/- 3.1 overall.

redsrule2500
04-12-2005, 06:51 PM
An openly gay athelete would hurt the team, no doubt about it.

Junior is just not trying to cause any controversy - he has learned something in dealing with the media.

smith288
04-12-2005, 07:00 PM
I dont oppose an openly gay baseball player and I am firmly against the lifestyle. If the person can play, he should...

The problem is this is not a perfect world and some men might be unconfortable being around a man who digs on other men. That can effect a person's psyche fair or not. This in turn will effect the teams chemistry...

I have always gone by the "Hate the sin, love the sinner" and its a damn good motto to live by if you ask me.

FlyingPig
04-12-2005, 07:47 PM
Im guessing there have been more gay players than the average fan would have guessed that have played MLB.....



Personally, I don't have an opinion to which players would object or not.....



.......not that there's anything wrong with that......

:rolleyes:

Chip R
04-12-2005, 07:55 PM
I dont oppose an openly gay baseball player and I am firmly against the lifestyle. If the person can play, he should...

The problem is this is not a perfect world and some men might be unconfortable being around a man who digs on other men. That can effect a person's psyche fair or not. This in turn will effect the teams chemistry...

I have always gone by the "Hate the sin, love the sinner" and its a damn good motto to live by if you ask me.
Saying that gay players would be a problem because of how their teammates would react is an excuse. That was a major reason African American players were kept out of MLB until 1947.

Walkerforpres
04-12-2005, 07:57 PM
The problem is this is not a perfect world and some men might be unconfortable being around a man who digs on other men. That can effect a person's psyche fair or not. This in turn will effect the teams chemistry...
I dislike the point of view that some naive, self-centered athletes seem to have about a potentially gay teammate. It's like they all think that a gay teammate is automatically going to be attracted to them just for the sole fact that they're gay, so in turn the athlete feels 'uncomfortable'. It's highly ignorant.
And because of a number of athletes holding this point of view, a gay teammate is going to be blown entirely out of proportion by the media, the public, and I'm sure one or two loudmouth idiots already on the team (Hi, Terrell Owens) that have some sort of need to put fuel to an unnecessary fire. Of course the media will jump on this, in turn making the entire team uncomfortable because of the heightened attention on themselves for simply having a teammate that is different in some way.

So through THAT cycle, and not the cycle that the whole entire team thinks that a gay athlete is passe, I'm sure it would probably put strain on the team's chemistry. I really do not think that most professional athletes are seriously, truly bothered by the knowledge that there is an openly gay teammate in their clubhouse. I'm sure there are gay male athletes now, they're just not out to the entire freakin' world. And given the absolute firestorm that would come from an 'outing' like no other, they're probably pretty smart to keep their own business to themselves.

But for some reason, women's tennis, golf, softball, and basketball has survived under the radar with athletes that have come out. It's the heightened emphasis on men's sports in this country, combined with the effect that it would have on the 'macho' majority of guys that watch sports, that have prevented a gay male baseball/football player from coming out while active in the professional leagues. It will happen someday soon, and while it may not be pretty, it's almost necessary.

StillFunkyB
04-12-2005, 07:59 PM
I agree with JR.

If dude can play ball, he can play ball. Regardless of how I feel about his lifestyle.

The Baumer
04-12-2005, 08:04 PM
This probably isn't PC to say, but imagine you (a guy) getting invited to play on the US Women's National soccer team and changing in the locker room with them. You won't be necessarily be attracted to each girl, but....you get what I mean? Does that put a certain perspective on things? I know there is more than one.

membengal
04-12-2005, 08:04 PM
Good for Jr. Outstanding quote.

1990WorldChamps
04-12-2005, 08:09 PM
Saying that gay players would be a problem because of how their teammates would react is an excuse. That was a major reason African American players were kept out of MLB until 1947.

Bam! Homerun for Chip.

smith288
04-12-2005, 08:17 PM
Saying that gay players would be a problem because of how their teammates would react is an excuse. That was a major reason African American players were kept out of MLB until 1947.

Dude, I said I dont care if they played. Im just saying on a chemistry level, it would be a problem like it was a problem when African Americans were integrated. I would be for that if I lived in those days and im all for gays playing now...I simply stated it's not a perfect world and players would most likely have discomfort level.

(oh, and comparing race and sexual preference is apple and oranges, FYI)

smith288
04-12-2005, 08:17 PM
Bam! Homerun for Chip.
He swung and missed because he misunderstood me... ;)

Walkerforpres
04-12-2005, 08:21 PM
(oh, and comparing race and sexual preference is apple and oranges, FYI)

Not really. Both about a minority status, the fight for public acceptance and public & legal rights and recognition. But this is a baseball board.......so that'll be the end of it for me.

smith288
04-12-2005, 08:26 PM
Not really. Both about a minority status, the fight for public acceptance and public & legal rights and recognition. But this is a baseball board.......so that'll be the end of it for me.

:rolleyes:

Why is there this NEED to be recognized and put into some group regarding how you like to have sex? Religion, race and sex is the only real statuses people are placed into. Why the necessity to be placed in a box based on how you score? Give me a break.

Walkerforpres
04-12-2005, 08:33 PM
Why is there this NEED to be recognized and put into some group regarding how you like to have sex?
You've gotta be kidding me.
I'm not even going to bother to list the 9 million instances of heterosexual-pandering and recognition I could go on and on about. Or your incredibly naive viewpoint that sexuality is all about what you LIKE to do.

Seriously. Forget it.

Hap
04-12-2005, 08:34 PM
If you agree with the stat that 10% of the population is homo, then we can conclude that about 75 MLB players (three entire rosters) are homo.

I, personally, have the opinion, that the 10% estimation is too low as it pertains to the entire population. I have no empirical data to back this up, it is just my opinion. I went to Ohio University, I've lived in Columbus, and I've lived in Washington, DC (Georgetown, which, of course, is near DuPont Circle). All three of these locations have huge populations of smart successful homosexual people. The percentages in locations such as this might even approach 30 or 40 percent.

I am currently employed at Ohio Northern University (3300 students) in Ada, Ohio (pop. 5000). Every single day, I see a good number of gay people (professors, students and other employees). Even in the rural Midwest flatlands, the percentage of gays is well over 10%.

Getting back to the topic, I will just say that there have been gays in pro sports for as long as there have been pro sports. Some of them (Eric Dickerson, for example) enjoyed long successful careers. I do not understand why it has become such a hot topic.

Bobcat J
04-12-2005, 08:37 PM
:rolleyes:

Why is there this NEED to be recognized and put into some group regarding how you like to have sex? Religion, race and sex is the only real statuses people are placed into. Why the necessity to be placed in a box based on how you score? Give me a break.

Its not about being recognized for "how you like to have sex." Its about recognition and respect for the individual. Its about recognition and respect for that person's relationships, which you may be surprised to find out are important and meanigful beyond the bedroom.

1990WorldChamps
04-12-2005, 08:39 PM
Seriously, for all the hate that Junior receives he is one good, good guy. Great quote by Junior, a feeling probably shared by most of the team.

Chip R
04-12-2005, 08:40 PM
He swung and missed because he misunderstood me... ;)
I understood you perfectly. You believe if a player came out of the closet, his teammates would feel uncomfortable. And I'm not saying you are for or against it. And you said it yourself that players in 1947 had problems with integration. But they got over it once they found out that these players were good and they could help them win. If players came out of the closet it would be a problem for a while but, like Jr. said, if the guy can play no one is going to care.

smith288
04-12-2005, 09:00 PM
I understood you perfectly. You believe if a player came out of the closet, his teammates would feel uncomfortable. And I'm not saying you are for or against it. And you said it yourself that players in 1947 had problems with integration. But they got over it once they found out that these players were good and they could help them win. If players came out of the closet it would be a problem for a while but, like Jr. said, if the guy can play no one is going to care.
Which is what I said...It sounded like your post targeted me as some homophobe or akin to the racists of the 40-50's.

Im not "scared" of any homosexual...I just dont like their game, if you get my drift (i have been hit on by enough of them to know).

The uncomfortable factor players would have is a different factor than with race in my opinion. A homosexual player is attracted to men (duh...). An athlete may find this to be repugnant and rather unpleasurable to be the target of a homosexual's desires.

I have known a many homosexuals through my career and they do not hide their desires after they storm out of their closet. At least the ones who would continue to pester me. I had to threaten one with physical violence. They thought it was fun and games until I had to resort to that even though I respectfully and repeatidly requested them to lay off.

Im suprised I wasnt taken straight to diversity camp for not toeing the "acceptance" line but fortunately, I wasnt and I was left alone after that.

Its those types of scenarios that are far different than how a racist ball player viewed a person of color in those days.

Currently, in my opinion, respect is guaranteed for the homosexual community through public programs and corporate environments and that is fine. Also anyone who disagrees with their push for societal acceptance of their lifestyle is either a homophobe or a backwater redneck who hates. I don't think the same can be said for religious differences, be it Jewish, Muslim or Christian. I am often ridiculed for my faith. I dont care because I am a big boy. Which is why the programs probably arent necessary to me.

This arguement is beyond racism and is breeching religion and family values. We can all agree to respect one another and our principals but when one side thinks pride parades is a right and the other side thinks marriage is outsides the bounds of their lifestyle, common ground will probably never be reached.

Unless people throw out their religion, this debate will continue on. There is only one group of people who think this is similiar to segregation and that is the gay community and those who support its cause.

I would consider it a slam to every slave who fought tooth and nail to remove the shackles to compare the two.

TeamBoone
04-12-2005, 09:03 PM
An openly gay athelete would hurt the team, no doubt about it.

Junior is just not trying to cause any controversy - he has learned something in dealing with the media.

And perhaps, just perhaps, this is the way Jr really feels and merely answered the question truthfully.

johngalt
04-12-2005, 09:03 PM
(oh, and comparing race and sexual preference is apple and oranges, FYI)

No, it's not. Sexual ORIENTATION is no different than race. Just like people didn't choose to enter a life of slavery and lynching in the past, gays and lesbians don't choose to be ridiculed and condemned by society.

Bible thumping is more of a sin than sexual orientation.

The Baumer
04-12-2005, 09:05 PM
Bible thumping is more of a sin than sexual orientation.

I'm fairly certain most of your qualms about "bible thumping" have little to do with the Bible. You are probably referring to people's actions.

smith288
04-12-2005, 09:06 PM
No, it's not. Sexual ORIENTATION is no different than race. Just like people didn't choose to enter a life of slavery and lynching in the past, gays and lesbians don't choose to be ridiculed and condemned by society.

Bible thumping is more of a sin than sexual orientation.

Bible thumping? Where did I thump a Bible? Since you disagree with me, im the Bible thumper? Lol. I have plenty of atheist friends who think like me, are they "Bible thumpers"?

You give me concrete proof sexual orientation is a born trate similiar to being born a slave and ill be the first to shake your hand and agree with your view. But you cannot.

I can just as simply say its a psychological imbalance or a result of a persons environment while gorwing up and you can offer no proof otherwise.

johngalt
04-12-2005, 09:07 PM
I'm fairly certain most of your qualms about "bible thumping" have little to do with the Bible. You are probably referring to people's actions.

That's why I said Bible thumping - not the Bible.

Read before replying.

The Baumer
04-12-2005, 09:09 PM
That's why I said Bible thumping - not the Bible.

Read before replying.

This reply tells me you're just trying to start an arguement.

johngalt
04-12-2005, 09:11 PM
You give me concrete proof sexual orientation is a born trate similiar to being born a slave and ill be the first to shake your hand and agree with your view. But you cannot.

There's plenty of documented studies out there. Feel free to get with the 21st century and you'll find the evidence fairly easily.


I can just as simply say its a psychological imbalance or a result of a persons environment while gorwing up and you can offer no proof otherwise.

Even if either of those scenarios was a "cause" - which they aren't - then the person's "sin" wouldn't really be their fault anyway now would it?

Try and rationalize it however you want, but it still comes out the same vitriol we've heard from Falwell and others for years.

johngalt
04-12-2005, 09:12 PM
This reply tells me you're just trying to start an arguement.

No, I'm trying to make sure you understand what's being said before there's an argument.

rdiersin
04-12-2005, 09:14 PM
Try and rationalize it however you want, but it still comes out the same vitriol we've heard from Falwell and others for years.

That's got to be the most ridiculous comment I have heard. So someone who doesn't believe in a lifestyle is automatically a hatefull person? Come on.

johngalt
04-12-2005, 09:17 PM
That's got to be the most ridiculous comment I have heard. So someone who doesn't believe in a lifestyle is automatically a hatefull person? Come on.

No - someone who refers to sexual orientation as a sin that is an "abomination before God" and yada yada yada while still professing to love all and follow in the footsteps of Christ is a hypocrite. That's what I have a huge problem with.

Super_Barry11
04-12-2005, 09:21 PM
I've played softball since I was 6, and now play varsity fast-pitch in college. I've had many lesbian teammates, and it was never a problem for me or anyone else on the team. Not a big deal at all.

rdiersin
04-12-2005, 09:23 PM
No - someone who refers to sexual orientation as a sin that is an "abomination before God" and yada yada yada while still professing to love all and follow in the footsteps of Christ is a hypocrite. That's what I have a huge problem with.

So are you saying that you can't love someone even though you may not agree with them? I love Jerry Falwell because he is human, I think, but I rarely agree with him. smith made his position very clear and it was not hypocritical if you read it rationally, and to equate him automatically with Falwell and the like is to simplistic.

johngalt
04-12-2005, 09:29 PM
So are you saying that you can't love someone even though you may not agree with them? I love Jerry Falwell because he is human, I think, but I rarely agree with him. smith made his position very clear and it was not hypocritical if you read it rationally, and to equate him automatically with Falwell and the like is to simplistic.

But the point is that to say that you agree or disagree with "that lifestyle" is preposterous. That's like saying that you disagree with someone being black or that someone is a woman. From my vantage point and that of many people (included scholars and scientists) around the world, sexual orientation is not simply a lifestyle choice. That's the issue I have.

When a person says "I don't agree with Billy's lifestyle, but he's a good kid," that sounds to me like how my grandmother always says, "That Michael Jordan was a good player even though he was black."

RBA
04-12-2005, 09:30 PM
Just posting this so I can check the date on this message board. Is the year 2005 or 1905?

smith288
04-12-2005, 09:31 PM
There's plenty of documented studies out there. Feel free to get with the 21st century and you'll find the evidence fairly easily.



Just because you say so.... Suppose I found a "documented study" on how homosexuals are a result of chemical imbalance just the same as depression and anxiety is brought forth, complete with facts stats and graphs. Would you deem that as getting with the 21st century or no because it doesnt align with your thinking?



Even if either of those scenarios was a "cause" - which they aren't - then the person's "sin" wouldn't really be their fault anyway now would it?


Says you... but you arent any more the authority on the subject than I am.

Its still a sin according to my faith. There is a great many individuals who suffer from a porn addiction and are Christian. Even folks who are into kiddie porn who suffer this problem. They know its a sin and they try mightily and struggle to shake the problem. Its a psychological problem yet its still a sin. The part of my faith is to take these people and help them overcome these problems.

You don't see where I am coming from because you have some built in mechanic to totally discount my spiritual nature to try to help those who suffer from these afflictions. I consider homosexuality to be an affliction and would love more homosexuals to hear the gospel in a more loving way rather than a "your sins are worse than mine" type of way. I dont agree with that approach and it hinders the commission God has commanded his followers. My sins are as bad as a homosexuals, only my goal isnt to flaunt my sins but to continually try to remove them.

If someone doesnt agree with that, then I will move on to someone else. if you have had different experiences with Christians who behave like that (and there is many who dont behave the way Christ would), then im sorry you have painted all of us with your broad brush.




Try and rationalize it however you want, but it still comes out the same vitriol we've heard from Falwell and others for years.

As much as you want me to take your bait, that bait is rotten and old. I will pass and only hope you open your heart to something other than yourself. We disagree on homosexuality but I, in no way, hate you nor will call you some name like you have done to me. Its not my nature and it represents me better.

smith288
04-12-2005, 09:35 PM
But the point is that to say that you agree or disagree with "that lifestyle" is preposterous. That's like saying that you disagree with someone being black or that someone is a woman. From my vantage point and that of many people (included scholars and scientists) around the world, sexual orientation is not simply a lifestyle choice. That's the issue I have.

When a person says "I don't agree with Billy's lifestyle, but he's a good kid," that sounds to me like how my grandmother always says, "That Michael Jordan was a good player even though he was black."
No, its like saying "I like that Fred guy even though he does have tattoos all over his body."

We can still appreciate the person withouth agreeing with how they go about life. Its not that black and white.

The Baumer
04-12-2005, 09:38 PM
No, its like saying "I like that Fred guy even though he does have tattoos all over his body."

We can still appreciate the person withouth agreeing with how they go about life. Its not that black and white.

There is no use arguing over it, man. Come back to the main forum and enjoy some Reds baseball.

johngalt
04-12-2005, 09:38 PM
Just because you say so.... Suppose I found a "documented study" on how homosexuals are a result of chemical imbalance just the same as depression and anxiety is brought forth, complete with facts stats and graphs. Would you deem that as getting with the 21st century or no because it doesnt align with your thinking?

Look at the majority of studies and opinions on the matter and then get back to me and tell me I'm wrong.


My sins are as bad as a homosexuals, only my goal isnt to flaunt my sins but to continually try to remove them.

See, this is why you and I could never have a civil discussion on this - or pretty much anything else that has to do with faith and morals and ethics. To even say that homosexuality is a sin is just ludicrous. It is a complete perversion of the teachings you say you follow. Yet somehow I'm the one who's misrepresenting the Christian faith.



As much as you want me to take your bait, that bait is rotten and old. I will pass and only hope you open your heart to something other than yourself. We disagree on homosexuality but I, in no way, hate you nor will call you some name like you have done to me. Its not my nature and it represents me better.

No, you won't call me names. You'll just call homosexuals sinners who need healing and need to change their sinful lifestyle.

johngalt
04-12-2005, 09:39 PM
No, its like saying "I like that Fred guy even though he does have tattoos all over his body."

We can still appreciate the person withouth agreeing with how they go about life. Its not that black and white.

No, it's not like that at all. That's the point.

MWM
04-12-2005, 09:39 PM
Haven't we had this discussion a few dozen times already?

Redsland
04-12-2005, 09:44 PM
I've played softball since I was 6, and now play varsity fast-pitch in college. I've had many lesbian teammates, and it was never a problem for me or anyone else on the team. Not a big deal at all.
Outstanding point, SB_11.

(Li'l ol' you play college fast-pitch? :eek: )

The Baumer
04-12-2005, 09:49 PM
Haven't we had this discussion a few dozen times already?

The word "homosexual" attracts these adament debators like chum to a great white shark. If you are confident in your own tolerance of gays and lesbians than why do you need to debate someone looking to argue?

smith288
04-12-2005, 10:02 PM
Look at the majority of studies and opinions on the matter and then get back to me and tell me I'm wrong.


"How could anyone possibly know that Napoleon?" - Kip



See, this is why you and I could never have a civil discussion on this - or pretty much anything else that has to do with faith and morals and ethics. To even say that homosexuality is a sin is just ludicrous. It is a complete perversion of the teachings you say you follow. Yet somehow I'm the one who's misrepresenting the Christian faith.


Because you are misrepresenting the Christian faith, you can look at the famous scripture, It might make your nose and eyes bleed but do me a favor, look up Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13,15-16. This scripture makes it as clear a theft and coveting in how I and millions of other Christians, Jews and Muslims view homosexuality.

Paul said "who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death . . . " He was speaking of old Testament laws such as homosexuality which was punishable by death but it is no longer punishable by death as Jesus fullfilled the law and we are now under the law of Grace from God.

Thats how it is to be viewed by a Christian. A sin. Just like any sin but equal to the eyes of God. A Christians purpose is to spread the gospel and if you disagree, fine. Ill move on...methinks you arent though.



No, you won't call me names. You'll just call homosexuals sinners who need healing and need to change their sinful lifestyle.

I don't understand. You disagree with me. I fully respect your views yet you cannot respect mine? Is it THAT unfathomable to think that someone might disagree with you?

I understand a homosexual may perceive my beliefs to be negative and I understand that. I wont alter my faith just to save a few feelings along the way. I try to go through life with a purpose. You dont like my spiritual purpose. Whoopy. You aint the first and you wont be the last.

WVRed
04-12-2005, 10:24 PM
Haven't we had this discussion a few dozen times already?

After round 4,216,395, the score is still-

Liberal Tree Huggers-0
Conservative Bible Thumpers-0

Getting back to the subject, it seems I remember after the Marlins won the WS, that they said if they had a gay teammate that it would cause a lot of problems for them. Does anybody else remember that article?

Mutaman
04-12-2005, 11:04 PM
Just posting this so I can check the date on this message board. Is the year 2005 or 1905?

I've been thinking the same thing myself a lot lately. Particularly when i read about somebody from the Cato or Heritage foundation calling social security "socialism".
I fully expect to see lynchings start up again soon.

Larkin411
04-13-2005, 12:00 AM
And perhaps, just perhaps, this is the way Jr really feels and merely answered the question truthfully.


I'm a little late on this but I totally agree. I think it's overly cynical to assume Jr. isn't speaking sincerely.

redsrule2500
04-13-2005, 12:27 AM
Would this guy have to use the Women's Locker Room?

RosieRed
04-13-2005, 12:46 AM
I have known a many homosexuals through my career and they do not hide their desires after they storm out of their closet. At least the ones who would continue to pester me. I had to threaten one with physical violence. They thought it was fun and games until I had to resort to that even though I respectfully and repeatidly requested them to lay off.

Is your religion OK with threatening physical violence?

Mutaman
04-13-2005, 12:55 AM
I have known a many homosexuals through my career and they do not hide their desires after they storm out of their closet. At least the ones who would continue to pester me. I had to threaten one with physical violence. They thought it was fun and games until I had to resort to that even though I respectfully and repeatidly requested them to lay off.



This may be the strangest thing I've ever read in redzoan. Something's just not right here. Hey buddy, what kind of people are you hanging with? Are you possibly leading these guys on? Maybe you're inadvertantly sending off gay vibes. Maybe you should spend more time with girls. I'm sure whatever it is, it can be treated. Actually I know lots of gays too and can honestly say that nobody's ever come on to me once I state my straightness. Whats wrong with me?