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Chip R
04-19-2005, 12:54 PM
Ratzinger from Germany is Benedict XVI.

Redsland
04-19-2005, 12:59 PM
Isn't he the guy from Cheers?

That was fast. The cardinals must have had a plane to catch.

:)

Puffy
04-19-2005, 01:01 PM
I understand them choosing an older Cardinal so as to not have back to back long reigns, but this guy is not the face Catholics should want right now.

We took a step backwards today, and thats a shame, IMO.

M2
04-19-2005, 01:10 PM
What happened to BtLPtPoTT XII?

On a separate note, I believe Ratzinger's a lot more liberal than JP II.

KronoRed
04-19-2005, 01:12 PM
Is he?

Puffy posted an article in another thread, he sounds like a hard liner :help:

Puffy
04-19-2005, 01:15 PM
What happened to BtLPtPoTT XII?

On a separate note, I believe Ratzinger's a lot more liberal than JP II.

Well, we never know how a Pope will "rule" thats for sure, and I think you're correct that when JP II was elected he was considered more conservative that Ratzinger.

My only fear is the message this sends out - they only wanted a temporary Pope, and thats clear by the fact he is 78. But if thats the case I wish they went liberal, to bring people back in, instead of pushing them to other faiths.

Of course, this is all only my opinion, and they are surely wiser than me, so I probably have no idea what I am talking about. Which is nothing new :)

Danny Serafini
04-19-2005, 01:19 PM
This will probably sound like a silly question, but as a non-Catholic I really don't know. Why is it when a pope is elected he a) takes a new name and b) takes a name 15 people have already used? Why doesn't he go by Pope Joseph Ratzinger?

zombie-a-go-go
04-19-2005, 01:29 PM
This will probably sound like a silly question, but as a non-Catholic I really don't know. Why is it when a pope is elected he a) takes a new name and b) takes a name 15 people have already used? Why doesn't he go by Pope Joseph Ratzinger?

It's not a silly question - I'm Catholic and I have no idea either. :)

Well, I'm not fiercely Catholic.

macro
04-19-2005, 01:47 PM
That was fast. The cardinals must have had a plane to catch.

:)

They had to be in Pittsburgh by 7:05 tonight.

zombie-a-go-go
04-19-2005, 01:49 PM
They had to be in Pittsburgh by 7:05 tonight.

Good one. :thumbup: :laugh:

M2
04-19-2005, 01:51 PM
Is he?

Puffy posted an article in another thread, he sounds like a hard liner :help:

My bad, I flipped him and the Italian Martini in my head. Old guys in red robes all look the same to me.

Roy Tucker
04-19-2005, 01:51 PM
Basically, its just a tradition since 1009...

From http://www.catholic.org/cathcom/international_story.php?id=13589 (a good article about the whole pope process but I've just excerpted it)

What happens after the election?

The cardinal dean asks the man, "Do you accept your canonical election as supreme pontiff?" Rarely does anyone say no. When offered the papacy at the 1271 Viterbo conclave, St. Philip Benizi fled and hid until another candidate was chosen. Likewise St. Charles Borromeo, one of the few cardinals to be canonized, turned down the papacy. When Cardinal Giovanni Colombo, the 76-year-old archbishop of Milan, began receiving votes during the October 1978 conclave, he made it clear that he would refuse the papacy if elected. If the man says yes, then he becomes pope immediately if he is already a bishop. The rest is simply ceremony. If he is not a bishop, he is to be ordained immediately by the cardinal dean and becomes pope as soon as he is ordained a bishop.

He is then asked by what name he wants to be called. The first pope to change his name was John II in 533. His given name, Mercury, was considered inappropriate since it was the name of a pagan god. Another pope in 983 took the name John XIV because his given name was Peter. Reverence for the first pope precluded his becoming Peter II. At the end of the first millennium a couple of non-Italian popes changed their names to ones that their people could more easily pronounce. The custom of changing one's name became common around the year 1009. The last pope to keep his own name was Marcellus II, elected in 1555.

The cardinals then approach the new pope and make an act of homage and obedience. A prayer of thanksgiving is then said, and then the senior cardinal deacon announces to the people in St. Peter's Square that the election has taken place and the name of the new pope. The pope then may speak to the crowd and grant his first solemn blessing "urbi et orbi," to the city and the world. John Paul I and John Paul II prolonged the conclave until the following morning so that they could meet and dine with the cardinals.

John Paul II had audiences for diplomats and the press in the week after his election. The inauguration mass took place six days after the election.

gm
04-19-2005, 03:04 PM
So, does Puffy now loathe the Joe Ratzinger "signing"? :evil:

(Even Randa's uniform number matches the "Benedict") :randa:

Puffy
04-19-2005, 03:38 PM
So, does Puffy now loathe the Joe Ratzinger "signing"? :evil:

(Even Randa's uniform number matches the "Benedict") :randa:

Well, there is a chance I do, but I'm watching my soul carefully, so I won't be posting that as much as the Randa loathing ©.

Chip R
04-19-2005, 03:43 PM
The last pope to keep his own name was Marcellus II, elected in 1555.
I nominate this guy to be Pope Marcellus III ;)

http://www.aj.cz/img/smpulp5.jpg

RedFanAlways1966
04-19-2005, 04:05 PM
New Pope elected

Thank God! :p:

RedsBaron
04-19-2005, 04:42 PM
Well, we never know how a Pope will "rule" thats for sure, and I think you're correct that when JP II was elected he was considered more conservative that Ratzinger.

My only fear is the message this sends out - they only wanted a temporary Pope, and thats clear by the fact he is 78. But if thats the case I wish they went liberal, to bring people back in, instead of pushing them to other faiths.

Of course, this is all only my opinion, and they are surely wiser than me, so I probably have no idea what I am talking about. Which is nothing new :)
I'm neither Catholic nor an "expert" about Catholicism, but I suspect that Puffy is right-this is a temporary Pope.
In the long run I expect a Pope to come from somewhere other than Europe. The growth of Roman Catholicism is taking place primarily in the so-called "Third World." If a multi-national corporation was looking for a new leader, would it keep elevating to the post of CEO someone who was part of a division that was losing market share and had declining sales, or would it promote someone connected to a division showing sales gains and vigor?
I'm NOT advocating that Catholicism be run like a multi-national, for profit corporation, but if Catholicism looks to its areas of growth, a Pope from somewhere other than Europe should eventually be selected.

Puffy
04-19-2005, 04:53 PM
I'm neither Catholic nor an "expert" about Catholicism, but I suspect that Puffy is right-this is a temporary Pope.
In the long run I expect a Pope to come from somewhere other than Europe. The growth of Roman Catholicism is taking place primarily in the so-called "Third World." If a multi-national corporation was looking for a new leader, would it keep elevating to the post of CEO someone who was part of a division that was losing market share and had declining sales, or would it promote someone connected to a division showing sales gains and vigor?
I'm NOT advocating that Catholicism be run like a multi-national, for profit corporation, but if Catholicism looks to its areas of growth, a Pope from somewhere other than Europe should eventually be selected.

There were two "candidates" that fit this description. One was from Nigeria and the other was from Brazil (I believe he was from Brazil, but maybe it was Argentina). Coincidentially, they were the two I most favored.

The only place where I slightly differ from what you said - and this is probably just semetics - is that I don't care if the Catholic faith grows, I am more concerned about losing people. Growth will take care of itself in the third world countries through family - I am more worried about Catholics who feel they are not being heard and fleeing.

Again, thats just my feelings - I'm not going anywhere, so maybe I am off base.

gm
04-19-2005, 04:59 PM
Prophecy or forgery--you be the judge!

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

John Paul II (1978-2005) "De labore Solis"
(of the eclipse of the sun, or from the labour of the sun)
Hist.: Karol Wojtyla was born on May 18, 1920 during a solar eclipse. He also comes from behind the former Iron Curtain (the East, where the Sun rises). He might also be seen to be the fruit of the intercession of the Woman Clothed with the Sun labouring in Revelation 12 (because of his devotion to the Virgin Mary). His Funeral occurred on 8 April, 2005 when there was a solar eclipse visible in the Americas.

Benedict XVI (2005-) "Gloria olivę"
The Benedictine order traditionally said this Pope would come from their order.

WVRed
04-19-2005, 05:23 PM
Good, hes 78. That means we will be seeing this again probably in the next 5 years. :help:

And im not Catholic;).

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-19-2005, 06:32 PM
Aren't all popes "temporary"? Benedict the XVI is, after all, the 265th in a line that started with St. Peter.

That being said, Pope Benedict XVI is in excellent physical health according to reports. A 15-year papacy is certainly not out-of-the-question. And popes have to be a certain age. It's not like they can elect a 35-year-old just so he is pope for several decades. JP II was about as young as it gets, and that was only because the previous pope died after just one month.

Although I thought the new pope might hail from Africa or Latin America, Cardinal Ratzinger was the best candidate. Hopefully he will lead a renaissance for the Catholic Church in Germany and in Europe. It is already very, very strong in Africa and Latin America.

OldCat
04-19-2005, 06:42 PM
And it isn't necessarily true that an expected short term Pope can not undertake reforms. The first John Paul in 1978 started a number of reforms that JP II continued and strengthened. So much so that JP II took his name from the first JP to mark the continuity of the 2 reigns rather than a separation of the two.

I think the choice of Bendict shows that the cardinals don't expect a time-server or 'idle' pope. He's expected to make his influence felt.

cincinnati chili
04-19-2005, 07:15 PM
About 40 years ago, they suspected that Fidel "Goldenhands" Castro wouldn't be around much longer. The "short term" strategy may not be a good one.

Rojo
04-19-2005, 07:54 PM
I wonder if his age is some sort of compromise between hardliners and reformers.

ws1990reds
04-19-2005, 08:02 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that the pope changed his name from 'Joseph' to separate himself from Joseph Stalin. :p:

cincinnati chili
04-19-2005, 08:52 PM
I told my wife that he took the name Pope Jamal, and she believed me.

M2
04-19-2005, 11:24 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that the pope changed his name from 'Joseph' to separate himself from Joseph Stalin. :p:

Stalin not so much, but he was a member of the Hitler Youth.

Redsfaithful
04-20-2005, 01:18 AM
I told my wife that he took the name Pope Jamal, and she believed me.

That's hilarious. I may try that on my fiancee.

REDREAD
04-20-2005, 12:38 PM
Stalin not so much, but he was a member of the Hitler Youth.

Not to defend that part of his life, but every youth of that age was required to join that organization. If his parents lived in Germany, he really had no choice.

RedFanAlways1966
04-20-2005, 12:52 PM
Not to defend that part of his life, but every youth of that age was required to join that organization. If his parents lived in Germany, he really had no choice.

Yes, I found that comment (left as it was) to be disturbing. He was released from the Hitler Youth, which all youth were FORCED to join at age 14, b/c of his desire to become a priest. I guess those who desire to be a priest are not good genocide-machines! Imagine that.

Johnny Footstool
04-20-2005, 01:06 PM
Yes, I found that comment (left as it was) to be disturbing.

M2's comment leaned neither to the left nor the right. It was simple fact.

M2
04-20-2005, 01:18 PM
M2's comment leaned neither to the left nor the right. It was simple fact.

I left it that way intentionally. Though no matter how bland you leave it, it dredges up a hornet's nest. It's part of the problem with electing a Pope who'd been in the Hitler Youth. It's an ugly spectre and it doesn't go away.

It's certainly not going to help if Ratzinger continues to stamp out dissenting opinions in the church and pursues his vision of a "leaner," more exclusive church in the West.

Anyway, you can argue that it's a sign of the insular, disconnected nature of the church hierarchy that it doesn't recognize the inherent problems in elevating an old Bavarian to the papacy. Bavarian Catholics formed the core of the Nazi party. Munich wasn't chosen for the putsch by accident. JP II apologized for the Holocaust for a reason, because the Church and many of its members had been complicit in it. It's not Ratzinger's fault he was born where he was born, but he's a throwback to one of the darkest periods in history and in church history and, unfortunately, geography put him on the wrong side.

RedFanAlways1966
04-20-2005, 02:15 PM
I am sure that most 14-year-olds would choose service over death... if given the choice.

Johnny... this is not political at all (I meant left as in "it was left there"... not left in the political sense). The comment, as it was left there, was not appropriate or fair. Regardless of any feelings regarding the Catholic Church. A more appropriate comment would have been something like, "He was in the Hitler Youth b/c all 14-year-old Germans were required to join or die." That is more factual than the original comment that got us here. Obviously some other point was trying to be made, but was left for the reader to figure out on their own (how? maybe by the luck of God someone could have read into that Hitler Youth comment and figured that out).

Let it be known that he also deserted the German army once he was forced to join. The risk of deserting? Death. No trial, just death.

He was forced to join the Hitler Youth.

Johnny Footstool
04-20-2005, 03:00 PM
Johnny... this is not political at all (I meant left as in "it was left there"... not left in the political sense).

Sorry. I misunderstood.

Rojo
04-20-2005, 03:34 PM
Let it be known that he also deserted the German army once he was forced to join.

Since your so keen on context, its important to remember that soldiers were deserting the German Army in droves as an Allied victory appeared imminent.

RedFanAlways1966
04-20-2005, 03:53 PM
Sorry. I misunderstood.

I can see how that would happen!! I laughed at it, Johnny. It actually took me a few reads before I realized where you were comin' from on that.

:D

Jeremy Piergallini
04-20-2005, 03:55 PM
According to the Onion, the run on sinning between popes has come to a screaching halt with the election of Benedict the 16th.
When I get a promotion, I will not be known as Jeremy, I will be Alejandro the 1st. I'm not even Hispanic, but it sounds good. Wait, Ron Mexico the 2nd sounds better.

traderumor
04-20-2005, 03:55 PM
Yes, I found that comment (left as it was) to be disturbing. He was released from the Hitler Youth, which all youth were FORCED to join at age 14, b/c of his desire to become a priest. I guess those who desire to be a priest are not good genocide-machines! Imagine that.Being clergy didn't help Dietrich Bonhoeffer much. I guess it must have depended on your affiliation whether or not you were dismissed for a religious pursuit?

RedFanAlways1966
04-20-2005, 03:59 PM
Since your so keen on context, its important to remember that soldiers were deserting the German Army in droves as an Allied victory appeared imminent.

I am also keen on facts and the whole story. The fact is... he joined the Hitler Youth by no choice of his own. As did many upon many German youth at that time.

And you are absolutely right, Rojo. Many German soldiers knew the inevitable. They also knew that scorching their own soil was not a good idea (as many were told to do). They were also told to kill any German (soldier or not) person who did not stand and fight for the homeland. Thank goodness the Pope and many-many others did this and saved many more lives and kept reconstruction where it was when the war ended.

Strange... the soldiers who decided to fight until the end in WWII Germany remind me of the insurgents in Iraq. No real purpose.... just kill, maim and destroy. Anything or anyone. Even their own.

M2
04-20-2005, 04:00 PM
A more appropriate comment would have been something like, "He was in the Hitler Youth b/c all 14-year-old Germans were required to join or die." That is more factual than the original comment that got us here. Obviously some other point was trying to be made, but was left for the reader to figure out on their own (how? maybe by the luck of God someone could have read into that Hitler Youth comment and figured that out).

No the appropriate, and factual, comment to make was "Stalin not so much, but he was a member of the Hitler Youth."

Wasn't trying to make a point beyond that and didn't think I needed to give a history lesson on forced entry into the Hitler Youth or the zeal of Bavarian Catholics for the Nazi party.

Johnny Footstool
04-20-2005, 04:06 PM
I laughed at it, Johnny.

Once I realized my mistake, I laughed, too.

I guess I'm so used to seeing left/right references, I'm shooting first and asking questions later.

Redsfaithful
04-21-2005, 05:39 AM
Strange... the soldiers who decided to fight until the end in WWII Germany remind me of the insurgents in Iraq.

The insurgents fighting against an occupying force that they don't appreciate are akin to Nazis?

Godwin was right.

RedFanAlways1966
04-21-2005, 07:57 AM
The insurgents fighting against an occupying force that they don't appreciate are akin to Nazis?

Godwin was right.

Are you defending the insurgents? Do you think they have a just cause? Tell us more. Why didn't you say something when "The Pope was a Hitler Youth" was stated. Didn't that bother you too? Or are you only bothered when insurgents are compared to German soldiers (not Nazis.... those were not the words used by me).

Both kill indiscriminately. They even kill their own people. Both wanted to commit genocide to certain groups of people. Fighting a lost cause... both.

Tell us why you think the insurgents are justified in their actions. You have already stated that an occupying force has caused them to fight. Tell us more.

And God Bless our soldiers who try to rid the world of these murderers in Iraq.