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View Full Version : Lindner fleecing California with Arnold's help?



RBA
04-26-2005, 12:22 AM
Apr 25, 2005 - 06:15 PM


Work Comp Donations to Arnold Paying Off

by Douglas Heller

The state's workers' compensation insurers have reaped a windfall in the wake of Arnold's workers' compensation law signed last year, according to new insurance industry data made public at a California Dep't of Insurance hearing today. Only 45 cents of every dollar California businesses paid in premium in 2004 was used to cover claims of injured workers. The most recent national average was almost 73 cents of every dollar. That dramatic difference means overpriced policies for businesses and adds up to huge profits for insurance companies in California.

Last year, Arnold refused to consider regulation of insurance companies while pushing his workers' comp bill. And just as the gov was facing pressure to regulate insurers as part of a legislative solution, he received a $100K donation from American Financial Group -- one of the largest workers' comp insurers in California. That always helps a politician figure out what he believes. In total, he received more than $550,000 from workers' comp insurers before he signed the law.

And now that Arnold's bill is paying off for insurers, American Financial Group and its Great American Insurance subsidiary are writing checks. Last month AFG's chairman, Carl Lindner, hosted a fundraiser for Arnold in Cincinnati and donated another $279,200 this year to Arnold and his various campaigns.

Lindner, who owns major league baseball's Cincinnati Reds -- the Reds' stadium is even named Great American Ballpark after Lindner's insurance co. -- hit a homerun with the money he paid to get Arnold on the company team.

http://arnoldwatch.org/blogs/blogs_000701.php3

RedFanAlways1966
04-26-2005, 09:06 AM
Douglas Heller, the writer of the above. A Michael Moore wannabe (perhaps we have some of those here too?)... make no doubt about that. He came out w/ his own version of Fahrenheit 9-11 (later of course b/c he is a wannabe). Guess what this forgettable movie was about... a documentary that investigates the ways in which the civil liberties of American citizens and immigrants have been rolled back since September 11 and the Patriot Act. I ask you, RZ readers... what civil liberties have you lost since 9-11? Enough to make a movie (if you have noticed any great civil liberty losses)? Consider the source, friends, consider the source.

Question... has Carl Lindner done anything illegal?? Has he in regard to this breaking story? Has Arnold done anything illegal?

Next!! :thumbup:

KittyDuran
04-26-2005, 09:14 AM
Douglas Heller, the writer of the above. A Michael Moore wannabe (perhaps we have some of those here too?)... make no doubt about that. He came out w/ his own version of Fahrenheit 9-11 (later of course b/c he is a wannabe). Guess what this forgettable movie was about... a documentary that investigates the ways in which the civil liberties of American citizens and immigrants have been rolled back since September 11 and the Patriot Act. I ask you, RZ readers... what civil liberties have you lost since 9-11? Enough to make a movie (if you have noticed any great civil liberty losses)? Consider the source, friends, consider the source.

Question... has Carl Lindner done anything illegal?? Has he in regard to this breaking story? Has Arnold done anything illegal?

Next!! :thumbup:Instead of attacking the writer, the source, how about addressing the issue [if there is one?]. Thanks!

RedFanAlways1966
04-26-2005, 09:26 AM
Instead of attacking the writer, the source, how about addressing the issue [if there is one?]. Thanks!

The writer/source is always important when reading IMO. It can tell you a lot about the article. It is called biased opinion. I too may be biased in the opinions of others. As a matter of fact I believe I have been called this more than once here at RZ.

If you know nothing about the source, then you may believe the information without "considering that source". It always importnat to consider the source of information that is political. Especially if it is political. And this is case in point. Joseph Heller is a... don't think I can say it in terms that are acceptable here at RZ.

If people of the world did not consider sources, then Jospeh Goebbels may have been more successful with his words during the late 1930's and early 1940's.

Kitty... has Lindner or Arnold done anything illegal? I asked that question for a reason. And if it has something to do with morals, per Heller, then I suggest we learn much more about Douglas Heller and how he feels about morality.

I am not attacking. I am stating my opinion on the writer of the article. The same as he does about Arnold and Lindner. What is good for Heller is good for me.

I think it more than fair to discuss the writer of an article and his possible slants. Just as important as the article itself (it not more important).

KittyDuran
04-26-2005, 09:56 AM
The writer/source is always important when reading IMO. It can tell you a lot about the article. It is called biased opinion. I too may be biased in the opinions of others. As a matter of fact I believe I have been called this more than once here at RZ. ALL opinions are biased - everyone has an agenda...RBA has one and you have one - usually on the opposite of each other - both carting out the same tired arguments. What I WANT is some discussion about the legality/repercussions of what's going on in CA. What is, if there is any, recourse for employees that this is happening to? Could it happen in OH? Is it happening in other states - are there bills waiting to pass in any state? Will Lindner push for this legislation in the State of OH - that would affect employees at the GABP and Great American Insurance? Are there other insurance companies looking into what Great American has done in CA? IF it is political - are there any democrats supporting this measure? How many politicians are getting kickbacks from this legislation? Will this legislation cut back on frauduant (sp?) claims? Was this legislation the product of those claims? Could there have been other means of solving the problem if that was the reason for the measure?

RBA
04-26-2005, 10:47 AM
Many politicians and corporations never do anything illegal. But does that give them a free pass on everything they do? If it's wrong, it's wrong, wheter it's LEGAL or not.

Johnny Footstool
04-26-2005, 11:07 AM
I think it more than fair to discuss the writer of an article and his possible slants. Just as important as the article itself (it not more important).

So the source of the news is potentially more important than the news? Then why bother reading anything? Just look at the author's name, and you'll know whether or not to agree or disagree. Wow, that's easy! What a great way to stay informed.

RedFanAlways1966
04-26-2005, 11:19 AM
Many politicians and corporations never do anything illegal. But does that give them a free pass on everything they do? If it's wrong, it's wrong, wheter it's LEGAL or not.

You mean like Whitewater? I understand. Sounds like a moral argument to me in this case. Like the "Let Terri Schiavo Live" people were saying. They tasted reality in the end. Morals & laws. Two distinctly different things. Ask the "Let Terri Schiavo Live" backers.

California has some of the most liberal laws in the land. Weren't they one of the first to pass "legalize pot" laws? Weren't a lot of gay marriages (not legal) being performed in this state?

Could this be ANOTHER article that has Heller attacking the new Repub governor (Heller? NAH!!). Or is this about attacking the bigtime Repub supporter, Carl Lindner. Or perhaps Heller never attacks anyone and is fair and impartial? Oh... I think I am getting warmer! Google up good ol' Heller and his articles. Look out Michael Moore... someone is trying to steal your thunder and the thunder that made you are a very rich man.

Heller wearin' an MSU cap yet? :D

RBA
04-26-2005, 12:20 PM
I don't get the connection to "liberal laws" "gay marriage" "legalized pot" and the actions of Carl Lindner's company and the California Governor. I find more parellels with the fleecing of Califonia by the Energy Companies like Enron. Looks to be another case of corportations skirting the laws for their own profits.

ochre
04-26-2005, 12:28 PM
Lindner pays both sides. He is an equal opportunity wheel greaser.

919191
04-26-2005, 12:32 PM
1966, I am conservative, too, maybe even more- just don't like the Republicans. But corp[orations are heading towards a new way of dealing with workplace injuries- instead of actually striving to make the workplace safer, thet are using a behavior-based outlook- any injury is caused by the behavior of an employee. An example (yes, it is extreme and kinda implausible) is if a giant hole opened up in a common walkway and an employee walked into it and fell, it is the fault of the employee as they used incorrect behavior, and most injuries are cause for discipline. I was once threatened with possible termination due to an injury. That injury was being hit with a mallet flying through the air! I was actually told if I was where I was supposewd to be, it wouldn't have happened. To this day, I can't be sure if it was a joke due to the nature of that supervisor. Yes, most accidents, or at least many, are caused by poor decisions by the injured, but this is management trying to avoid the cost of a safer workplace. I hope you are in a workplace that doesn't treat employees this way, but they are out there.

REDREAD
04-26-2005, 01:52 PM
Actually, it's worse than that 919191.. I have a relative that got legitimately hurt on the job.. the relative was too scared to report it, because it is well known that anyone who makes a workman's comp claim gets laid off within 6 months or so. Yes, it's illegal, but they get away with it.

Mutaman
04-26-2005, 02:13 PM
You mean like Whitewater? I understand. Sounds like a moral argument to me in this case. Like the "Let Terri Schiavo Live" people were saying. They tasted reality in the end. Morals & laws. Two distinctly different things. Ask the "Let Terri Schiavo Live" backers. :D

What does Michael Moore, Terri Schiavo, or Whitewater have to do with the subject of this tread? Dam the logic, full spleen ahead.

RedFanAlways1966
04-26-2005, 02:44 PM
1966, I am conservative, too, maybe even more- just don't like the Republicans. But corporations are heading towards a new way of dealing with workplace injuries-

No problem with that. Be sure to read more than a Heller article to get the "whole story" (Far. 9-11... truth or not? depends on who you ask). And I do not think it is fair to say "corporations"... as in all companies. I also wonder if Heller has ever written a negative column about a Dem politician?

But Heller aside, I wonder how much corporations feel the need to fight? Fight, I say. Why? How many people, with the help of lawyers (gee, who do they politically support?), have taken advantage of "the system"?

I know some here think all corporations are evil. I like to look at the other side too. One of my best friends is the office manager for a Workman's Compensation (W.C.) clinic. They handle nothing but W.C. cases. Real hard to prove a "bad back" sometimes... from the doctor's side. And if the doctor feels that the case is baloney... it is easier for them to just sign-off on the injury than it is to say no. If the doctor says no, then there may be court proceedings and they might face a lawsuit too. Does this happen in the real world? You had better believe your bad back.

Is it too easy to fake an injury and get paid to stay home? I know what my friend tells me. I wonder if Heller has ever been to a W.C. clinic or talked to people who work at one? I do not believe that all corporations are evil. I also do not think that all corporations are fair.

And I'd venture to guess that CA has a lot more fradulant W.C. cases than most states based on per capita. Just a guess, but one that I feel safe in stating. Wonder why?

Now... how much money did attornies (like the ones who represent W.C. cases... real or not) gave to politicians in CA? Would that be the same sort of thing as Carl giving to Arnold? Are Carl's donations only b/c of this W.C. law? Does Heller have proof of that or is that what Heller wants the reader to insinuate from his less-than-the-whole-truth writing? Should we check all of Carl's political donations and see if they all go to those who make what is perceived as favorable to him decisions? Lots of insinuations going on in that article. But it is Heller... keep that in mind.

RedFanAlways1966
04-26-2005, 02:51 PM
What does Michael Moore, Terri Schiavo, or Whitewater have to do with the subject of this tread? Dam the logic, full spleen ahead.

Something about legalities vs. morals. Did you miss that in my post? Read it again and maybe you will catch that obvious comparison the 2nd time, friend.

Let me try one more time... Some people thought it was wrong to pull a woman's feeding tube and let her die. However, it was legally done. Just like Carl's donations.

Moore is Heller's idol IMO. Whitewater had something to w/ politicians. Cannot remember who, but non-politicians went to prison over it (read RBA's comment prior to my reference). But I forgot that Hillary is capable of turning $10K into $100K overnight w/ her investment knowledge. Get it now?

Now I'll await your NY big city experience that will somehow try to refute my arguments. Full spleen ahead!

:)

RBA
04-26-2005, 02:53 PM
I know some here think all corporations are evil.

Who would be those here?

RedFanAlways1966
04-26-2005, 02:57 PM
Who would be those here?

I don't want the my reader to insinuate, RBA. Sorry if that is how you took that statement. I'd bet that Heller thinks that way. But he makes me insinuate. He didn't get me to believe that anything wrong has taken place though in CA w/ Carl Lindner.

I wonder how Heller felt about pulling that feeding tube, since morals are a big thing to him? I should ask him. I do not expect others to answer for Douglas. Maybe a quick Goggle search will tell me?

RBA
04-26-2005, 03:02 PM
I ain't here to discuss the pulling the feeding tube. To me, that was the moral thing to do. But I think that's been pretty much discussed in the other thread.

ochre
04-26-2005, 03:11 PM
Lindner pays people that are in power. Nothing new here.

Lindner, thought a conservative by temperament (he was a member of the anti-porn group largely responsible for Cincinnati's Mapplethorpe dustup), give money to whoever in in power. Despite his relationship with Dole, he was President Clinton's largest single contributor as of July 1994. But shortly after Republicans took the House in November 1994, Lindner sent a check for $55,000 to Speaker Newt Gingrich's GOPAC.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/coinop_congress/96mojo_400/lindner.html

Redsfaithful
04-26-2005, 03:11 PM
Muddy the water, make something that seemed clearcut murky.

Republicans don't want to stay clean, they just want to get the other guy dirty too.

Redsfaithful
04-26-2005, 03:13 PM
And for the record I agree with Ochre. Lindner has never been one of those guys that gives 99% of the time to one side or the other. He wants to be in favor with whoever's in charge.

Rojo
04-26-2005, 05:02 PM
It's what's legal that screams for change. This dirty little episode is the perfect example of what's wrong with American capitalism in the 21st Century. Thousands of productive businesses are being drained by healthcare and worker's comp costs that go mostly to well-connected corporations.

America is entering its Breznev-era, complete with an Mideast invasion.

RedFanAlways1966
04-26-2005, 05:26 PM
It's what's legal that screams for change. This dirty little episode is the perfect example of what's wrong with American capitalism in the 21st Century. Thousands of productive businesses are being drained by healthcare and worker's comp costs that go mostly to well-connected corporations.

America is entering its Breznev-era, complete with an Mideast invasion.

Kind of reminds me (American capitalism) of Chinese people sleeping in Lincoln's bedroom for a small fee. I also wonder how many productive businesses/doctors get drained by outrageous lawsuits and people who milk the system with their "so-called injuries". Do we include attorney donations to their political favs in this argument? Do we?

I thought America was entering the next Vietnam? Now it is a Breznev-Afghan thing?

America's way of doing things may not be perfect. It may be far from perfect. However, it is still one of the best around. Lasted a lot longer than other ways of doing things (see USSR, etc). There are a lot of things in this country that are far from perfect (O.J. trial anyone?). But it is a great country regardless. I shake my head when citizens of this country complain. They need to live elsewhere and see if things are that bad here. Of course our neighbors up north do not make it too hard to setup shop there. Make sure there are no felonies on the good ol' record, say some negative things about a certain country and you'll be speaking fluent French before you know it.

I still wonder how many workman's comp. cases are filed in the state of CA. Is it large compared to other states (per capita)?

Redsfaithful
04-26-2005, 05:33 PM
Kind of reminds me (American capitalism) of Chinese people sleeping in Lincoln's bedroom for a small fee. I also wonder how many productive businesses/doctors get drained by outrageous lawsuits and people who milk the system with their "so-called injuries". Do we include attorney donations to their political favs in this argument? Do we?
...
Of course our neighbors up north do not make it too hard to setup shop there. Make sure there are no felonies on the good ol' record, say some negative things about a certain country and you'll be speaking fluent French before you know it.

Wow. Lay off the talk radio man.

RedFanAlways1966
04-26-2005, 05:39 PM
Wow. Lay off the talk radio man.

Talk radio? Answer this...

Did Chinese sleep in Lincoln's bedroom for a fee? Did anybody get in trouble for that? Is that another fine example of the American capitalism referenced by Rojo?

Do attornies make political donations like Mr. Lindner? Who do they donate to and why? Are frivilous lawsuits a problem like what is perceived to be a problem in CA w/ workman's comp.?

Is there a history of Americans who think this country is not run the right way moving north? Even those who have committed a felony crime by dodging their military service?

Redsfaithful
04-26-2005, 05:49 PM
Even those who have committed a felony crime by dodging their military service?\

Everyone who went to Canada to avoid Vietnam was pardoned. You know that.

I've never heard anything about the Lincoln bedroom from credible sources. It's generally the lunatic fringe on the right that seems to bring it up. Just like it's the lunatic fringe on the right that manages to bring every ... single ... conversation around to Clinton.


Do attornies make political donations like Mr. Lindner? Who do they donate to and why? Are frivilous lawsuits a problem like what is perceived to be a problem in CA w/ workman's comp.?

I imagine lawyers donate to both parties pretty equally, just like most people.

KittyDuran
04-26-2005, 05:56 PM
Talk radio? Answer this...

Did Chinese sleep in Lincoln's bedroom for a fee? Did anybody get in trouble for that? Is that another fine example of the American capitalism referenced by Rojo?

Do attornies make political donations like Mr. Lindner? Who do they donate to and why? Are frivilous lawsuits a problem like what is perceived to be a problem in CA w/ workman's comp.?

Is there a history of Americans who think this country is not run the right way moving north? Even those who have committed a felony crime by dodging their military service?

WOW!!! :eek: Talk about going on a tangent. Can we just keep the topic on the Worker's Comp situation in CA? I really would like to hear from those in CA - are you worried about this? And thanks to REDREAD and 919191 for some personal insights. :thumbup:

Rojo
04-26-2005, 06:04 PM
I shake my head when citizens of this country complain. They need to live elsewhere and see if things are that bad here. Of course our neighbors up north do not make it too hard to setup shop there.

Love it or leave it, hey Archie.

Johnny Footstool
04-26-2005, 06:57 PM
I shake my head when citizens of this country complain. They need to live elsewhere and see if things are that bad here.

Like when people complain about gas prices being too high?

Mutaman
04-26-2005, 08:11 PM
You've got to give the Rushcrowd and the Big Oil crowd credit, they are becoming really expert at refusing to address the issues. Critisize the Banana Man for buying political favors, they bring up removiing Terri Schivo's feeding tube. Complain about Tom Delay, they bring up the Lincoln Bedroom. Criticize the war in Iraq, they bring up Bosnia.

Rojo
04-26-2005, 08:30 PM
You've got to give the Rushcrowd and the Big Oil crowd credit, they are becoming really expert at refusing to address the issues.

Ya gotta feel for 'em. After years of sitting on the sidelines, knowing what was best for the country, they get their big chance and....bupkis.

They couldn't even do a war right, something you'd think was their bread-and-butter.

Mutaman
04-26-2005, 09:11 PM
Ya gotta feel for 'em. After years of sitting on the sidelines, knowing what was best for the country, they get their big chance and....bupkis.

They couldn't even do a war right, something you'd think was their bread-and-butter.

I'll give them a pass on the war since during prior wars most of them were home hiding under the covers. The guys who were fighting the wars all turned out to be Democrats. Heck even that pinko softie Ted Kennedy spent his time in the military which is more than you can say for Dick C, Rush, ect ect.

GAC
04-27-2005, 09:54 PM
Muddy the water, make something that seemed clearcut murky.

Republicans don't want to stay clean, they just want to get the other guy dirty too.

Pot meet kettle. :lol:

Redsfaithful
04-28-2005, 01:17 AM
Pot meet kettle. :lol:

Very substantial argument. However, I'm afraid it's ineffective because I'm rubber and you're glue ...