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Redmachine2003
05-02-2005, 10:31 PM
This was a very sad game. The Reds have blown 3-6 runs leads in the last few games. Some thing has to change and now we will see what kind of GM DanO really is.

RFS62
05-02-2005, 10:32 PM
That was historic.

KronoRed
05-02-2005, 10:32 PM
Walks will haunt.

So, whaddya do? Fire the whole bullpen?

Sounds good for a start

WebScorpion
05-02-2005, 10:33 PM
The bullpen couldn't be much worse if you swapped them with the Louisville Bats staff. That said, I'm still happy I got to see the Reds on TV and Junior swinging nicely. Offensively, the Reds did all they could to win that game. Maybe they can bring up some fresh arms from AAA or something...our starters have actually been better than I expected. This bullpen needs a shakeup. :help:

Falls City Beer
05-02-2005, 10:33 PM
I'm telling you. Someone's head is going to roll for this. Losses like this hurt ticket sales. The impression after this loss is that the team is rudderless. There's got to be a sacrifice.

SandyD
05-02-2005, 10:34 PM
I guess I don't get that line of thought.

We all know I'm not a big Aurilia fan, but he was having an OK night at the plate ... why not let him hit in that situation?

No comprendo.

And who wanted to see a Reds pitcher take the mound again tonight?

GoReds
05-02-2005, 10:35 PM
Walks will haunt.

So, whaddya do? Fire the whole bullpen?

No, but I think there are wholesale changes that could/should be made.

Weathers, Weber, Belisle either cut or demoted (depending on contract).

Put Graves on the DL (tendenitis) and let him rehab in Louisville. Install Ortiz as closer (give princeton's idea a chance).

Bring in Coffey and any two pitchers from Louisville.

Radical changes all, but they can't do any worse.

oneupper
05-02-2005, 10:37 PM
After blowing a 6-1 lead in Chicago, a 5-1 lead in Milwaukee and a 9-3 lead tonight, all i can say is that the REDS bullpen is powered by the INFINITE IMPROBABILITY DRIVE.

...and the answer is 42.

westofyou
05-02-2005, 10:37 PM
That was historic.

Yep, Hindenberg size, another reel for the Cardinals year end video... all expenses paid for by Reds GM's.

Raisor
05-02-2005, 10:38 PM
I'm telling you. Someone's head is going to roll for this. Losses like this hurt ticket sales. The impression after this loss is that the team is rudderless. There's got to be a sacrifice.



Did they freeze Branch Rickey when he kicked off? Maybe it's time to unthaw him?

Phhhl
05-02-2005, 10:39 PM
The best thing about tonight is that it HAS to be rock bottom. Better now than July. What a horrible, sick feeling to watch the club melt down like that. Especially with that particular team in town.

redsfan30
05-02-2005, 10:40 PM
Does anyone else feel physically sick?

Roy Tucker
05-02-2005, 10:40 PM
No, but I think there are wholesale changes that could/should be made.

Weathers, Weber, Belisle either cut or demoted (depending on contract).

Put Graves on the DL (tendenitis) and let him rehab in Louisville. Install Ortiz as closer (give princeton's idea a chance).

Bring in Coffey and any two pitchers from Louisville.

Radical changes all, but they can't do any worse.
The problem is, DanO just isn't the kind of guy to make rash moves.

Is Dannys arm hurting? He's hanging pitch after pitch.

I think Belisle is a servicable part.

But Weathers and Weber certainly have had their problems. And they were supposed to be mainstays of the pen.

westofyou
05-02-2005, 10:40 PM
Does anyone else feel physically sick?

Nah.... the numbness makes you forget you have a stomach.

ochre
05-02-2005, 10:40 PM
Yep, Hindenberg size, another reel for the Cardinals year end video... all expenses paid for by Reds GM's.
its almost mother's day.

GoReds
05-02-2005, 10:40 PM
Can they get a mulligan?

Falls City Beer
05-02-2005, 10:41 PM
Does anyone else feel physically sick?

I would have been a few years ago. But I'm hardened, man. There is no end to this team's ineptitude.

traderumor
05-02-2005, 10:42 PM
Credibility is at stake right now. You can't sink any lower with a loss like that. Credibility with fans, credibility with players, credibility around the league. David Weathers is my first choice. He walked the eighth and ninth hitters with a six run lead. Danny Graves, if this doesn't make them look hard for another option, what will? But if not one head rolls, I'm pretty sure I can find something else to do many a night. I'm also pretty sure that many fans, less committed than myself, who will also find something better to do than invest valuable time in a poorly run franchise. There is nothing else that has to happen to make the shoe drop. I go out of my way to root for this team, but I have lots of options and it will not be hard at all to put them further down on the priority totem pole.

Reds Fanatic
05-02-2005, 10:42 PM
Does anyone else feel physically sick?
I feel like somebody punched me in the stomach.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2005, 10:44 PM
Credibility is at stake right now. You can't sink any lower with a loss like that. Credibility with fans, credibility with players, credibility around the league. David Weathers is my first choice. He walked the eighth and ninth hitters with a six run lead. Danny Graves, if this doesn't make them look hard for another option, what will? But if not one head rolls, I'm pretty sure I can find something else to do many a night. I'm also pretty sure that many fans, less committed than myself, who will also find something better to do than invest valuable time in a poorly run franchise. There is nothing else that has to happen to make the shoe drop. I go out of my way to root for this team, but I have lots of options and it will not be hard at all to put them further down on the priority totem pole.

Every Reds fan is saying this to him/herself right now. And DanO's seeing dollar signs vanishing before his eyes.

traderumor
05-02-2005, 10:44 PM
I feel like somebody punched me in the stomach.Yes, haven't been that disappointed since the final weekend of the '99 season when the Brewers won the first two game of the series.

ochre
05-02-2005, 10:44 PM
I'll say it again. I honestly can not think of a single worse loss since I've been following the Reds. The 1999 loss to the Mets was tougher to swallow because it was a more important game, but I've never seen a game where the loss was more embarassing.
its mentioned in this article by wheeler, but the mother's day massacre was worse for me:
http://www.cincypost.com/2002/jul/01/lonnie070102.html

Puffy
05-02-2005, 10:44 PM
Whats really depressing to me is that this loss did not affect me at all. Usually this early in the season, when baseball is new again after a winter of nothingness, this type of loss would just crush me, but I am already giving up on the season. I know, I know, but I just can't help it, but I see nothing in these Reds to make me think this is just a slimp and not the real deal. So, this year they are swooning earlier than the past 4 years, I expected it, I'll deal with it.

oneupper
05-02-2005, 10:46 PM
To get an idea of how improbable that finish was, I went to the Win Expectancy Finder (with every game from 1979 through 1990).

Only ONCE in 1514 did a visiting team losing by 6 runs to start the ninth come back in win.

However, if this is so RARE...why am I not surprised?

Falls City Beer
05-02-2005, 10:46 PM
Whats really depressing to me is that this loss did not affect me at all. Usually this early in the season, when baseball is new again after a winter of nothingness, this type of loss would just crush me, but I am already giving up on the season. I know, I know, but I just can't help it, but I see nothing in these Reds to make me think this is just a slimp and not the real deal. So, this year they are swooning earlier than the past 4 years, I expected it, I'll deal with it.

Yep. Simply a matter of whether the train derailed or slammed into a mountain side.

redsfan30
05-02-2005, 10:46 PM
At first I was in shock. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Now that it's had few minutes to settle in, my shock is turning into anger.

A mix of anger and disbelief.

MWM
05-02-2005, 10:48 PM
Only ONCE in 1514 did a visiting team losing by 6 runs to start the ninth come back in win.


Who was pitching, King Arthur? :cool:

traderumor
05-02-2005, 10:48 PM
Every Reds fan is saying this to him/herself right now. And DanO's seeing dollar signs vanishing before his eyes.I hope so, FCB, I hope so. I spent a couple of hours doing an autopsy of our draft results of pitchers earlier today, so my frame of mind was already shaky. Now, I am looking at the Dick LeBeau era of the Bengals all over again. Question is, will the Reds step up and say enough is enough, or will they make excuses. If I hear one excuse...that ninth inning just cannot happen. It just can't. It did, now someone has gotta step up and send some guys packing.

Roy Tucker
05-02-2005, 10:48 PM
Only ONCE in 1514 did a visiting team losing by 6 runs to start the ninth come back in win.
Golly, they played baseball in 1514? That's a long time ago. Once every 490 years.

(a really pathetic attempt at humor)

redsfan30
05-02-2005, 10:49 PM
I just hope that there is some paint and/or wallpaper being peeled off in the Reds' clubhouse right now.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2005, 10:50 PM
I hope so, FCB, I hope so. I spent a couple of hours doing an autopsy of our draft results of pitchers earlier today, so my frame of mind was already shaky. Now, I am looking at the Dick LeBeau era of the Bengals all over again. Question is, will the Reds step up and say enough is enough, or will they make excuses. If I hear one excuse...that ninth inning just cannot happen. It just can't. It did, now someone has gotta step up and send some guys packing.

Fans will follow a scrappy loser, but they'll flee screaming from an embarrassment. No one wants a part of an embarrassment.

M2
05-02-2005, 10:51 PM
Only ONCE in 1514 did a visiting team losing by 6 runs to start the ninth come back in win.

And the Iriquois never let the Chippewa live it down.

oneupper
05-02-2005, 10:51 PM
Who was pitching, King Arthur? :cool:

No that would have been in 514...more like Copernicus or something..for 1514..

and actually the number is 2387.. (capt Kirk?)

only in one game out of 2387 did a visiting team come back from 6 under to win (from 1979 to 1990).

REDS...powered by the infinite improbability drive!

RosieRed
05-02-2005, 10:53 PM
I just hope that there is some paint and/or wallpaper being peeled off in the Reds' clubhouse right now.

And hopefully it's happening in a closed door meeting, which they need to be having.

top6
05-02-2005, 10:54 PM
I'm posting to emphasize the sheer terribleness of what happened tonight and to see whether I indeed have posting privileges in the new forum.

Thanks - I'll go back to posting once every few weeks or so.

RosieRed
05-02-2005, 10:55 PM
Graves' line on my fantasy team tonight:


IP W SV K ERA WHIP
0.1 0 0 0 27.00 12.00

:runaway: :runaway:

Super_Barry11
05-02-2005, 10:55 PM
And hopefully it's happening in a closed door meeting, which they need to be having.

I hope Sean Casey turns mean, screaming obscenities and throwing sharp objects at everyone.

Well, not really. It might wake some of the guys up, though. :bang:

redsfan30
05-02-2005, 10:55 PM
It's telling how devastating this loss is when people aren't in here ranting and raving.

ochre
05-02-2005, 10:56 PM
I hope Sean Casey turns mean, screaming obscenities and throwing sharp objects at everyone.

Well, not really. It might wake some of the guys up, though. :bang:
He'd have to throw them at himself.

Super_Barry11
05-02-2005, 10:58 PM
He'd have to throw them at himself.

Yeah, definitely. I love the guy, but man. :(

smith288
05-02-2005, 11:00 PM
It's telling how devastating this loss is when people aren't in here ranting and raving. Might have something to do with the reputation system. he he.

traderumor
05-02-2005, 11:01 PM
Ok, guys, I'm still in rehab for getting angry when bad pitchers pitch badly. Mrs. Traderumor disappeared, fortunately I had little baby Emily Traderumor snuggled on my chest when the events went down. But I have not had a relapse yet. "Serenity Now"

But I'm still all for firing any of the bad pitchers. Take your pick, leave Wagner, help yourself to anyone else.

princeton
05-02-2005, 11:02 PM
I've been at third grade games that ended like this one.

a kids' scoop at Friendly's fixes.

Mutaman
05-02-2005, 11:02 PM
Don't kid yourself , nothings going to change. this is the same bad baseball team we've seen for the past umpteen years. It all starts at the top- too many people who don't know a baseball from a banana. Maybe they can win 70 games this year.

Was it my imagination or did I see more Cardinal fans in the crowd than Red's fans?

Finally, how does a veteran pitcher come in to mop up a 9-3 lead and walk the first two guys? When does football season start?

MWM
05-02-2005, 11:03 PM
It's telling how devastating this loss is when people aren't in here ranting and raving.

Well, the opposite of love is apathy. This franchise better start worrying about fan apathy.

Roy Tucker
05-02-2005, 11:04 PM
The goofy thing was, it was 9-4 with 2 outs.

If Sean scoops out and hangs on to the potential DP relay off Pujol's bat, we're all celebrating a turn-around Reds victory.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2005, 11:04 PM
Well, the opposite of love is apathy. This franchise better start worrying about fan apathy.

Bingo.

traderumor
05-02-2005, 11:04 PM
Well, the opposite of love is apathy. This franchise better start worrying about fan apathy.Yup, ask Mike Brown.

redsfan30
05-02-2005, 11:05 PM
:(

paintmered
05-02-2005, 11:06 PM
What was the attendance tonight?

I thought I heard Steve say it was the 15K range.

LvJ
05-02-2005, 11:07 PM
Oh, my tv is lucky I got home 5 minutes too late to see that ending.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2005, 11:10 PM
This is what happens when a success meets a failure. It puts me in mind of that line by Ammons: "expect abundance/ to yield nothing to privation...."

Kc61
05-02-2005, 11:12 PM
That ninth inning performance was just about the worst display of "major league" baseball I can remember. It was worthy of the '62 Mets. Weathers, Graves, Jimenez, Casey, and Kearns all contributed, although it was primarily the two pitchers.

What to do? Obviously some immediate bullpen changes are in order, or the Reds may never win another game this year. The blown leads keep getting larger and larger.

Longer term, I still think that a new manager (and pitching coach) are needed. The Reds need a proven winning manager who won't accept this garbage and will insist on winning players. It is not an accident that they have won with proven managers like Piniella, Johnson and McKeon and lost with guys like Knight, Boone and Miley.

Mutaman
05-02-2005, 11:22 PM
Sparky couldn't win with this team . This is a bad baseball team.

oneupper
05-02-2005, 11:24 PM
One of the things that irked me most about this game was that Miley brought Graves in EXACTLY when the game situation became a "SAVE" situation. Not a batter earlier or later...

Matchups, etc...were of no importance. Weathers was beginning to find the plate (albeit getting hit). Not important. Only one out to go. Not Important.

oneupper
05-02-2005, 11:26 PM
Sparky couldn't win with this team . This is a bad baseball team.

Perhaps. But I don't think he would LOSE so much either.

TeamBoone
05-02-2005, 11:26 PM
Don't kid yourself , nothings going to change. this is the same bad baseball team we've seen for the past umpteen years. It all starts at the top- too many people who don't know a baseball from a banana. Maybe they can win 70 games this year.

Was it my imagination or did I see more Cardinal fans in the crowd than Red's fans?

Finally, how does a veteran pitcher come in to mop up a 9-3 lead and walk the first two guys? When does football season start?

The key word I see above is "team"... this devastating loss was not the team's fault. It was the bullpen's fault. BT was lauding the Cardinals' comeback and all I could think was that it was not the Cardinals' prowess that did it; it was the lousy performance by the Reds' bullpen.

Honestly, I didn't see any Cardinals fans. I guess I was focusing too much on the game.... with joy at first.

I truly believe this was the most disappointing game I've ever seen. Milton pitched well and deserved the win. I can't even begin to think how horrible those guys must feel... I'm sure that deep down, they'd like to throttle Weathers and Graves, even though they'd never admit it (probably not even to each other).

M2
05-02-2005, 11:28 PM
I whole-heartedly disagree with canning Miley. Don't get me wrong, Miley does nothing for me and never has, but there's nothing anyone could do with this assemblage of talent (if you dare to call it talent).

The Reds have an ownership that doesn't get it. The Reds have a COO who doesn't get it. The Reds hired a GM who's shown no inkling that he gets it. From where I sit, Miley's so far down the line of people culpable for the current state of the product as to be practically invisible.

TeamBoone
05-02-2005, 11:29 PM
The goofy thing was, it was 9-4 with 2 outs.

If Sean scoops out and hangs on to the potential DP relay off Pujol's bat, we're all celebrating a turn-around Reds victory.

This is very true, Roy; but in all honesty, Sean has been saving a whole lot of butts for the past 4 weeks with great scoops. I guess he just ran out of steam tonight.

wheels
05-02-2005, 11:30 PM
I whole-heartedly disagree with canning Miley. Don't get me wrong, Miley does nothing for me and never has, but there's nothing anyone could do with this assemblage of talent (if you dare to call it talent).

The Reds have an ownership that doesn't get it. The Reds have a COO who doesn't get it. The Reds hired a GM who's shown no inkling that he gets it. From where I sit, Miley's so far down the line of people culpable for the current state of the product as to be practically invisible.

Didn't you coin the term "pulchrifecal" sometime last year?

It might apply here, unless I'm totally not understanding what it really means.

Puffy
05-02-2005, 11:33 PM
One of the things that irked me most about this game was that Miley brought Graves in EXACTLY when the game situation became a "SAVE" situation. Not a batter earlier or later...

Matchups, etc...were of no importance. Weathers was beginning to find the plate (albeit getting hit). Not important. Only one out to go. Not Important.

I noticed that too - now I'm not sure I woulda left Weathers in longer or gotten him out earlier, but I do know that Graves did not get the call until the tying run hit the on deck circle, or exactly the moment it became a save situation.

Not trying to second guess or anything, but "By the Book Dave" plays it that way every time.

M2
05-02-2005, 11:40 PM
Didn't you coin the term "pulchrifecal" sometime last year?

It might apply here, unless I'm totally not understanding what it really means.

I did coin that term. Though I don't the team's quite there yet. They haven't gone May 2001 quite yet.

Pulchrifecal would be the Platonian ideal of stank, the urstank, that most perfect stank from which all stench emanates.

TeamBoone
05-02-2005, 11:40 PM
Funny that you should mention that, oneupper and Puffy... I did too. And this is kind of weird but my first thought was "wow! I wonder how Redszone is going to respond to that!".

I find myself asking that question a whole lot during games regarding moves by management, bad plays, etc. When something good happens though, I never ask myself that question. Any psychologists want to take a stab at why I do this? Does anyone else?

wheels
05-02-2005, 11:42 PM
I did coin that term. Though I don't the team's quite there yet. They haven't gone May 2001 quite yet.

Pulchrifecal would be the Platonian ideal of stank, the urstank, that most perfect stank from which all stench emanates.

:laugh: :laugh:

You're the Dennis Miller of Redszone.

oneupper
05-02-2005, 11:50 PM
Funny that you should mention that, oneupper and Puffy... I did too. And this is kind of weird but my first thought was "wow! I wonder how Redszone is going to respond to that!".

I find myself asking that question a whole lot during games regarding moves by management, bad plays, etc. When something good happens though, I never ask myself that question. Any psychologists want to take a stab at why I do this? Does anyone else?

You can't be normal...none of us can be. It's almost midnight and we're scribbling little nothings in cyberspace between ourselves, because some group of men played a game in a certain way.

Not normal...

Mutaman
05-02-2005, 11:51 PM
The key word I see above is "team"... this devastating loss was not the team's fault. It was the bullpen's fault. BT was lauding the Cardinals' comeback and all I could think was that it was not the Cardinals' prowess that did it; it was the lousy performance by the Reds' bullpen.

Honestly, I didn't see any Cardinals fans. I guess I was focusing too much on the game.... with joy at first.

I truly believe this was the most disappointing game I've ever seen. Milton pitched well and deserved the win. I can't even begin to think how horrible those guys must feel... I'm sure that deep down, they'd like to throttle Weathers and Graves, even though they'd never admit it (probably not even to each other).

Have you been following this team during the month of April? For the most part, until recently, the pitching was halfway decent and we couldn't score any runs. Now when we score runs, the pitching falls apart.- The mark of a bad TEAM. I thought at the beginning of the year that an improved bullpen would make all the difference in the world. It won't- they'd just come up with some other way to lose. Finally, blaming this loss totally on the bullpen lets Casey off the hook, and he was a disgrace out there tonight. I can forgive errors, I can't forgive not getting in front of the ball. This team has little speed, is below average on fundamentals, they're not very smart, and is horrible defensively.

RosieRed
05-02-2005, 11:58 PM
I have no idea where to post this, so I'm just dropping it in all related threads ... so everyone can see it. :)

FYI: The last time the Reds blew a six-run lead in the ninth was June 29, 1952, when an 8-2 lead turned into a 9-8 loss to the Cubs.

FYI: This was the biggest ninth-inning comeback in St. Louis Cardinals history.

RFS62
05-03-2005, 12:11 AM
FYI: This was the biggest ninth-inning comeback in St. Louis Cardinals history.


Perfect.

RosieRed
05-03-2005, 12:27 AM
Perfect.

We witnessed history tonight.

:bang:

TeamBoone
05-03-2005, 12:42 AM
Finally, blaming this loss totally on the bullpen lets Casey off the hook, and he was a disgrace out there tonight. I can forgive errors, I can't forgive not getting in front of the ball. This team has little speed, is below average on fundamentals, they're not very smart, and is horrible defensively.

I guess I can't fault Sean Casey all that much because he's been saving a whole lot of butts with his scoops for the past four weeks. Seems he just ran out of steam tonight.

WVRedsFan
05-03-2005, 12:44 AM
I sit here stunned. I saw the big lead and felt comfortable and then...

I couldn't believe my eyes.

No fan of any team for 40 years should have to endure this. Yet, it happens all the time. I guess I should not feel like a martyr.

Our bullpen pitched 3 innings, allowed 10 (count 'em) hits, 8 runs (only 6 earned thanks to our fielding), walked 2 and struck out 1. That's a pitiful performance. Danny Graves simply has nothing on the ball. It was batting practice when he and Weathers entered the game.

I guess at 10-15 we're lucky, but something must be done. My biggest fear is that Miley will consider this an abboration and continue to put Weathers and Graves out there to end games (notice I didn't say close). My question is if there are any other options. Wagner is iffy of late and we know what the others have done. But, a six run lead?

Folks, I am in shock. I can't remember any bullpen we've ever had that was this bad (and that's saying something if you remember 2004). Surely to the gods in heaven, someone has a plan. Surely the powers that be can do something.

I'm just numb.

jmcclain19
05-03-2005, 12:48 AM
I guess I can't fault Sean Casey all that much because he's been saving a whole lot of butts with his scoops for the past four weeks. Seems he just ran out of steam tonight.

I kind of fall in the middle of you two on this one.

You can't blame Casey for effort, but he did drop key balls that would have ended the game and earlier not allowed a run.

You hate to say he had four hits and that excuses it - I fault his defense as much as Graves malaise in this loss.

MWM
05-03-2005, 12:53 AM
I doubt Casey will be complaining about the booing. I bet this loss is eating him up more than anyone, but I agree with jm. He also missed a fairly routine scoop in the 6th from Randa that allowed the second run to score. Casey doesn't do this on a regular basis which is why I have a hard time getting too upset about it. You could see the pain in his face after he booted that last one.

Mutaman
05-03-2005, 01:02 AM
I love Sean as much as the next guy but that play in the 9th really bothered me.
Whoever the batter was hit it down to him and he played it like a matador. when it skipped over his glove, it was a two base error and the tying run was on second. Get in front of the ball, knock it down , keep the runner at first. Not that it made any difference due to the next gopher ball but this is just laziness and failure to concentrate. I don't see this team much but over the last few years when I do, the lack of intelligence is amazing. Look at Aurilla's pathetic attempt to sacrifice in the ninth. i can always forgive mistakes and errors, just not stupidity and failure to think. (Weathers 2 walks bothered me a lot more than Grave's' gopher balls).

TeamBoone
05-03-2005, 01:12 AM
I love Sean as much as the next guy but that play in the 9th really bothered me.
Whoever the batter was hit it down to him and he played it like a matador. when it skipped over his glove, it was a two base error and the tying run was on second. Get in front of the ball, knock it down , keep the runner at first. Not that it made any difference due to the next gopher ball but this is just laziness and failure to concentrate.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Sean Casey is far from lazy. It was a mistake... pure and simple. He's saved a lot of others mistakes this season... unfortunately, there's no one to do the same for him on the rare occasions he's needed it so far this year. And as far as concentration is concerned, maybe he was trying too hard... to try to make up for the bullpen... and that's why he missed it. I highly doubt he was out there not concentrating.

If the bullpen hadn't allowed so many hits, this would be a moot point.