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ifreelgood
05-04-2005, 09:11 PM
0.63 ERA so far. Remind me who we got for him???

Matt700wlw
05-04-2005, 09:14 PM
0.63 ERA so far. Remind me who we got for him???

Some guy with a marijuana reference, and some guy who likes to drink a lot :D

ifreelgood
05-04-2005, 09:16 PM
Some guy with a marijuana reference, and some guy who likes to drink a lot :D

does the guy who likes to drink alot, drive also? :laugh:

The_jbh
05-04-2005, 09:22 PM
Don't forget Bubba makes some sweet shrimp :laugh:

CTA513
05-14-2005, 01:56 PM
0.63 ERA so far. Remind me who we got for him???

Heres an update on Reitsma.

3.12 ERA

After the Braves took a 4-2 lead in the top of the 8th on a Laroche grandslam, Reitsma comes out the bottom of the 8th and gives up a grandslam to Milton Bradley. Reistma gave up 4 runs in 2/3 of an inning and Dodgers won 7-2.

:evil:

Joseph
05-14-2005, 01:57 PM
Last night was not pretty for Reits, but I'd still rather have him than anyone this side of Wagner in our pen.

Team Clark
05-14-2005, 02:02 PM
He's also throwing 96 MPH and using his changeup more effectively.

Matt700wlw
05-14-2005, 02:13 PM
He's also throwing 96 MPH and using his changeup more effectively.

You mean he's better since leaving?

Why am I not shocked?

Marge'sMullet
05-14-2005, 02:15 PM
This is why I think it's the REDS system/pitching coaches are inept.

Reitsma
BJ Ryan
Chen
Reyes
Mecker
Weathers

All have excelled outside the REDS, what does Gullett and Hume do to these guys.

Team Clark
05-14-2005, 02:21 PM
Matt... Yep! Starting to become a trend. :(

On a side note, I saw Todd Jones while I was in Miami. He had some very interesting comments about the organization but stopped short of bad mouthing anyone. Which is very respectable. As he pointed out they did give him a shot and it turned out well.

Redmachine2003
05-14-2005, 02:28 PM
This is why I think it's the REDS system/pitching coaches are inept.

Reitsma
BJ Ryan
Chen
Reyes
Mecker
Weathers

All have excelled outside the REDS, what does Gullett and Hume do to these guys.
Can we add Estes and Brian Moelher to this list. Estes did pitch well for the Cubs not to mention how many pitches come to Cincy and pitch worse than they didn't any place else or end up having arm surgery.

Patrick Bateman
05-14-2005, 02:42 PM
This is why I think it's the REDS system/pitching coaches are inept.

Reitsma
BJ Ryan
Chen
Reyes
Mecker
Weathers

All have excelled outside the REDS, what does Gullett and Hume do to these guys.

Ryan never really got a chance with us and he had some success in the minors so saying the Reds were to blame for him not having success in Cincy is ludicrous since he only pitched in like two games for us.

Then are you referring to Denyes Reyes? If so he had his most success for his. He had a couple of good years with us.

Bruce Chen? There was about 50 other teams that also couldn't figure him ot, including the Braves.

And Mercker? He has had pretty decent success with us through the years.

I am in no way defending our pitching coaches but sayiny your examples are not really reflecting their ineptitude.

TeamBoone
05-14-2005, 03:13 PM
After the Braves took a 4-2 lead in the top of the 8th on a Laroche grandslam, Reitsma comes out the bottom of the 8th and gives up a grandslam to Milton Bradley. Reistma gave up 4 runs in 2/3 of an inning and Dodgers won 7-2.

Milton's giving a lot of pitchers trouble as of late.

butlerbulldogs
05-14-2005, 03:18 PM
Matt... Yep! Starting to become a trend. :(

On a side note, I saw Todd Jones while I was in Miami. He had some very interesting comments about the organization but stopped short of bad mouthing anyone. Which is very respectable. As he pointed out they did give him a shot and it turned out well.

Todd Jones is a class act, i would expect nothing less of him...his weekly article in Sporting News is always a joy to read

Team Clark
05-14-2005, 03:51 PM
He's a lot of fun outside the clubhouse too. He gets a lot out of life. Everyone on that staff looks up to Jones and Leiter. They call Leiter "Dad". What I thought was even more remarkable is that Leiter hasn't pitched well and all of the pitchers were there to support him just as he had done for them. Very productive environment.

Team Clark
05-14-2005, 03:53 PM
There were a couple of Marlins who suspect Graves of trying to pitch his way out of Cincy. How could anyone disagree with his recent numbers?

TeamBoone
05-14-2005, 03:57 PM
Say what you want about Danny Graves, but he would NEVER do that to his teammates!

knuckler
05-14-2005, 04:01 PM
There were a couple of Marlins who suspect Graves of trying to pitch his way out of Cincy. How could anyone disagree with his recent numbers?

Interesting theory, but given the way things have gone lately, the best way to pitch out of Cincinnati would be with GOOD numbers. No team would take Graves the way he's pitching now even if the Reds ate his entire contract.

RedlegJake
05-14-2005, 05:44 PM
Interesting theory, but given the way things have gone lately, the best way to pitch out of Cincinnati would be with GOOD numbers. No team would take Graves the way he's pitching now even if the Reds ate his entire contract.

I disagree. Graves is a good pitcher that a lot of clubs would like to have now that he's in his last year of that onerous contract. The Reds can and should trade him but they'll likely ask too much because the teams interested are going to point to his record and lowball it, all the while rubbing their hands in glee and figuring what a great difference a change of venue will make for him. Nothing is physically wrong with him - so I think a lot of clubs are going to hope that the Reds screwy pitch to contact philosophy and poor record of pitching development means they can get an effective pitcher on the cheap that they can easily straighten out. You are right about one aspect though, as I alluded - no one is going to give us much but its possible we could get a couple of decent low level prospects. And brother, I'd take them!

max venable
05-14-2005, 06:23 PM
This is why I think it's the REDS system/pitching coaches are inept.

Reitsma
BJ Ryan
Chen
Reyes
Mecker
Weathers

All have excelled outside the REDS, what does Gullett and Hume do to these guys.
This is EXACTLY why Gullet must go. Look at the track record. Pitchers genererally get better when they leave the Reds and they generally get worse when they join the Reds.

Gullett is awful as a PC. What FA pitcher would EVER want to come to Cincinnati with the way the staff is going under Gullett's leadership?

2001MUgrad
05-14-2005, 07:43 PM
I thought Tracy Jones brought up a good point on his show last night. The Reds chose to keep Larue and DJ in the offseason. They are making what about 2.5 mil each?? And, anyone playing AAA could do as well as they are doing. Yet, 1 Mil is too much to pay for Chris Reitsma.

The brains of this philosophy needs to go. His name is Dan.

Patrick Bateman
05-14-2005, 07:46 PM
I thought Tracy Jones brought up a good point on his show last night. The Reds chose to keep Larue and DJ in the offseason. They are making what about 2.5 mil each?? And, anyone playing AAA could do as well as they are doing. Yet, 1 Mil is too much to pay for Chris Reitsma.

The brains of this philosophy needs to go. His name is Dan.

They have said over and over again that Reitsma was being traded because they liked the players they were getting and not the result of him making too much money. That came straight from the horses mouth.

2001MUgrad
05-14-2005, 07:49 PM
They have said over and over again that Reitsma was being traded because they liked the players they were getting and not the result of him making too much money. That came straight from the horses mouth.

And we beleive the Save-A-Lot Reds front office because???

But if this does happen to really be true then someone needs fired that cannot evaluate talent.

Patrick Bateman
05-14-2005, 07:51 PM
And we beleive the Save-A-Lot Reds front office because???

.

If they are so cheap than why havn't they traded LaRue and Jimenez yet?

You can't have it both ways.

2001MUgrad
05-14-2005, 07:53 PM
If they are so cheap than why havn't they traded LaRue and Jimenez yet?

You can't have it both ways.

Oh, I bet they'd love to. Also, they would trade Griffey in a minute too. But, you have to have someone to dance with.

Patrick Bateman
05-14-2005, 07:55 PM
[QUOTE=2001MUgrad]Oh, I bet they'd love to. QUOTE]

Then why havn't they?

Aronchis
05-14-2005, 08:04 PM
And we beleive the Save-A-Lot Reds front office because???

But if this does happen to really be true then someone needs fired that cannot evaluate talent.

What happens if Nelson and Bong become BP anchors for the rest of the decade? DanO is not a man of action, but of Jungian Pyschobabble. Bowden always took a easy understanding why he did what he did. Trading Biggs for Kelly landed the Reds Sean Casey and trading Shaw for Konerko/Reyes landed the Reds Ken Griffey Junior!!!!

Matt700wlw
05-14-2005, 08:13 PM
They have said over and over again that Reitsma was being traded because they liked the players they were getting and not the result of him making too much money. That came straight from the horses mouth.

I don't buy it.....if it wasn't about the money, then they shouldn't have fought the arbitration to pay him less money

...he was worth paying in my book -- QUALITY pitching in this organization is a rare thing -- Chris was just that

Patrick Bateman
05-14-2005, 08:21 PM
I don't buy it.....if it wasn't about the money, then they shouldn't have fought the arbitration to pay him less money



Why wouldn't you try to pay as little money as possible. It's called business sense.

schroomytunes
05-14-2005, 08:53 PM
Reitsma should not have been traded plain and simple, you simply do not give away young power arms who make under 1 million a year, then 1 year later sign a 35 year old for 1.25 million. :thumbdown

Patrick Bateman
05-14-2005, 08:58 PM
Reitsma should not have been traded plain and simple, you simply do not give away young power arms who make under 1 million a year, then 1 year later sign a 35 year old for 1.25 million. :thumbdown

He wasn't simply given away for nothing.

Also it simply wasn't about the money.

Matt700wlw
05-14-2005, 09:00 PM
He wasn't simply given away for nothing.

Also it simply wasn't about the money.

Until Bubba and Bong show something....he was given away for nothing

Aronchis
05-14-2005, 09:02 PM
The Reds were projecting Nelson AND Bong as starting pitchers. I think they "thought" Nelson would be ready for his cup of coffey last summer than a major player on the 2005 team.

Instead, Nelson is being re-groomed as a closer.

Whoever is running the "major league" side of DanO's operation, well, flat stinks.

The_jbh
05-14-2005, 09:06 PM
Bubba Nelson was said to have #1 starter stuff. He had great numbers in the minors.

Dan O saw an opportunity to add a special arm and that arm crash and burned


Granted i was very upset to see Reitsma go, it wasn't the worst move in the world. I miss the good old days of the 99 bullpen.

2001MUgrad
05-14-2005, 09:54 PM
If Bubba or Bong was worth anything they would be on the team this year as bad as the pitching is. Also, you do NOT trade with the braves and take one of their pitchers. They don't trade 2 good pitchers for a middle releiver. They might trade 2 future AAA pitchers for a middle releiver though.

Patrick Bateman
05-14-2005, 10:05 PM
If Bubba or Bong was worth anything they would be on the team this year as bad as the pitching is. Also, you do NOT trade with the braves and take one of their pitchers. They don't trade 2 good pitchers for a middle releiver. They might trade 2 future AAA pitchers for a middle releiver though.

You can take pitchers for the Braves. Look at Marquis and Wainright who have both blossomed since leaving the Braves.

EX BRAVEDAD
05-14-2005, 10:21 PM
All of you just need to suck on some sour grapes whats done is done get over it

bleedsred
05-14-2005, 11:04 PM
Nelson could still prove to be a special talent out of the pen.....I do side with those that DG has to go......

RedlegJake
05-14-2005, 11:15 PM
Nelson is going to be here. And doesn't anyone else remember Chris imploding on a regular basis? Because he's better than the guys we've been running out there doesn't make him a stud. He was frustratingly inconsistent while he was here. Bong may never make it, my opinion of him isn't that high but Nelson is still young, has real talent and could very well end up our closer in the next year or two.

IMO, the jury is still out on that trade.

TeamBoone
05-14-2005, 11:17 PM
Reitsma should not have been traded plain and simple, you simply do not give away young power arms who make under 1 million a year, then 1 year later sign a 35 year old for 1.25 million. :thumbdown

Agreed.

At the time he was traded, he was the best reliever of the bunch. When pitching is the team's low spot, it seems to me you shouldn't trade away the best one!

2001MUgrad
05-14-2005, 11:32 PM
All of you just need to suck on some sour grapes whats done is done get over it

I know its a shame you can't go back in time isn't it?

ochre
05-14-2005, 11:40 PM
All of you just need to suck on some sour grapes whats done is done get over it
Many of us still expect Bubba to be a contributor here. How has he been EX? Is he dealing with being a reliever well?

ws1990reds
05-14-2005, 11:55 PM
He's also throwing 96 MPH and using his changeup more effectively.

His changeup is probably faster than any fastball by a Reds pitcher. :evil:

ws1990reds
05-14-2005, 11:57 PM
Matt... Yep! Starting to become a trend. :(

On a side note, I saw Todd Jones while I was in Miami. He had some very interesting comments about the organization but stopped short of bad mouthing anyone. Which is very respectable. As he pointed out they did give him a shot and it turned out well.

Not going to share with us? :devil:

KronoRed
05-15-2005, 12:20 AM
His changeup is probably faster than any fastball by a Reds pitcher. :evil:

If he were here it would be slower, have to pitch to contact ;)

Mutaman
05-15-2005, 12:36 AM
He wasn't simply given away for nothing.

Also it simply wasn't about the money.

He was given away for nothing, and it was all about money.

deltachi8
05-15-2005, 12:46 AM
They traded a guy who they projected as a middle reliever for two guys they projected as plus starters. I didnt have a problem with the trade then, and I dont now.

We all know the Reds have to develop starting pitching if they ever wish to be competitive. They traded a reliver who has much more value on a winning team for two arms they felt they could develop as starters.

Bong is injured so the jury is out and Bubba is now making progress as a closer. Even if Bong becomes a fairly effective Lefty out of the pen and Bubba a decent closer/short reliver, its a trade worth doing.

Without Reitsma the Reds are not very good, with him the last two years, they still are not real good. So, save a bit of jack and take a chance on two young arms.

WVPacman
05-15-2005, 12:51 AM
I always thought that trading Reitsma away was a big mistake.. yes the guy had some bad outings but the guy can pitch and he would have made are starting rotation alot better than it is now.I wish we could get him back some how or another Reitsma was always one of my favorites and I always thought he had good talent and still should be pitching for the Reds.

Aronchis
05-15-2005, 12:56 AM
He was given away for nothing, and it was all about money.

It is? 900k then 1.5 mill? That isn't over money, but trying to get starting pitching. DanO's first trade appears to not be leaning at those ends however and that is the reason why people complain. Nelson seems to "let go" much like Gagne in the Bullpen making himself much more effective over a 1-2 inning span.

Ravenlord
05-15-2005, 01:00 AM
Bubba Nelson
Age Level ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP
22 AA 4.08 53 2.92 2.04 5.94 10.36 0.85 1.38
22 AAA 7.09 59.2 1.73 3.92 6.79 11.16 1.81 1.68
23 AA 3.78 16.2 4.00 2.70 10.80 8.10 0.54 1.20

Jung Bong
Age Level ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP
24 RK 12.00 3 1.50 6.00 9.00 9.00 9.00 1.67
24 AAA 5.82 94.1 2.10 2.96 6.20 11.26 1.24 1.58
24 CIN 4.70 15.1 1.10 5.87 6.46 9.98 1.76 1.76
25 DL
the Reitsma you're seeing now in Atlanta, you wouldn't see in Cincinnati. the Reds developmental staff is inept incarnate. had Nelson and Bong stayed in Atlanta last year, they would have been fine. never mind that Bong at the time was considered a 4/5 rotation starter or a good BP candidate. BA called Nelson 'a stud' at the time of the trade. oh yeah, Nelson's current success is because he figured out the Reds developmental staff are idiots.

max venable
05-15-2005, 08:47 AM
They traded a guy who they projected as a middle reliever for two guys they projected as plus starters. I didnt have a problem with the trade then, and I dont now.

We all know the Reds have to develop starting pitching if they ever wish to be competitive. They traded a reliver who has much more value on a winning team for two arms they felt they could develop as starters.

Bong is injured so the jury is out and Bubba is now making progress as a closer. Even if Bong becomes a fairly effective Lefty out of the pen and Bubba a decent closer/short reliver, its a trade worth doing.

Without Reitsma the Reds are not very good, with him the last two years, they still are not real good. So, save a bit of jack and take a chance on two young arms.
Here's the thing for me: I would always be very wary about trading for pitchers or trading pitcher to the Braves. They're too good at evaluating pitching talent. How often do you see a P get traded from the Braves that turns out to be any good? And conversely, how often do you see a pitcher get traded to the Braves and then he gets good (or good again ala Mike Hampton)? I would almost never want to trade pitchers with the Braves.

Team Clark
05-15-2005, 11:32 AM
Ws.. Nah. Todd did not say anything that has not been discussed on this board in great detail. Every year there is always a soap opera or two in baseball that all players discuss. Right now the Reds are one of the topics. A lot of players from a lot of teams did not expect the Reds to play so poorly. Jones and I also talked about the Mets and their up and ndown pattern. Just talkin's baseball.

PuffyPig
05-15-2005, 01:32 PM
You can take pitchers for the Braves. Look at Marquis and Wainright who have both blossomed since leaving the Braves.

To say nothing about Jason Schmidt.

Ravenlord
05-15-2005, 01:55 PM
To say nothing about Jason Schmidt.or Odalis Perez.

4256 Hits
05-15-2005, 03:10 PM
[QUOTE=RavenlordNelson's current success is because he figured out the Reds developmental staff are idiots.[/QUOTE]

Or it could be small sample size! ;)

deltachi8
05-15-2005, 08:44 PM
I think it has much more to do with what an orginzation does with a pitcher AFTER they obtain him from the Braves and vice-versa.

Mutaman
05-18-2005, 01:22 PM
It is? 900k then 1.5 mill? That isn't over money, but trying to get starting pitching. DanO's first trade appears to not be leaning at those ends however and that is the reason why people complain. Nelson seems to "let go" much like Gagne in the Bullpen making himself much more effective over a 1-2 inning span.

I'm all for getting more pitching. It ought to be the number one priority. But you don't give away one of the few good arms in your organization for pitching. You trade outfielders and infielders to get more pitching. Why is this so complicated?

Ravenlord
05-18-2005, 01:24 PM
which would you rather have?

a guy who projects for middle relief.
or
a guy who projects as a 4 starter or middle reliever, and a guy who projects as a number 2 or 3 starter or closer

deltachi8
05-18-2005, 01:33 PM
which would you rather have?

a guy who projects for middle relief.
or
a guy who projects as a 4 starter or middle reliever, and a guy who projects as a number 2 or 3 starter or closer

i think you may have just stated it the best way anyone could have.

Hoosier Red
05-18-2005, 01:55 PM
which would you rather have?

a guy who projects for middle relief. on a bad team
or

a guy who projects as a 4 starter or middle reliever, and a guy who projects as a number 2 or 3 starter or closer
on hopefully an improving team.

Ravenlord is right, it was the right idea. To this point it hasn't worked out, but the idea is right.

Ravenlord
05-18-2005, 02:13 PM
Bubba's actually doing quite well in the closer role in Chattanooga right now. especially since he's no longer pitching to contact:

3.57 ERA, 17.2 IP, 17 H, 1 HR, 5 BB, 21 K

Mutaman
05-18-2005, 09:41 PM
Middle relief?? You don't think Chris would be closing for the Reds if he was still here? Remember, one of the big problems we have is that wwe don't have a closer. So labeling Reitsma a " middle relief" pitcher is a bit unfair. Of course if we had a decent middle relief pitcher, we'd probably have about five more wins. Good middle relief pitches are prety valuable.

I'm sorry, but you just don't trade the one good arm in your organization for two longshots that the Braves are ready too give up on. This kind of thinking is so illogical, that I always have had too assume this was just a horrible salery dump by an organization that would not spend any money. And the best you can say about this trade is that two years latter, one of the "prospects " we got has a 3.57 ERA at Chatanooga?

Saying that you traded a guy who projected for middle relief for two guys who projected as starters, is simply not reality. According to this line of thinking you would be willing to trade Harang for two pitching prospects.

RedlegJake
05-18-2005, 10:56 PM
Except, Mutaman, Chris didn;t do all that well while here. He was inconsistent, lost his starting role, and would pitch a good inning or two and then get smoked. The fact that he had talent was apparent - and it has shown with the Braves. That both Bong and Nelson were considered by many outside the Braves organization to be solid prospects, especially Nelson, and that they flopped when they got to the Reds ought to say everything you need about then state of our pitching philosophy and coaching. At this point I really believe the Reitsma trade makes olittle difference. If he stayed here Chris would still not be a good pitcher struggling with pitch to contact and getting jerked around. Bong and Nelson would probably be pitching - well - for the Braves instead of regressing with the Reds.

Shaggy Sanchez
05-18-2005, 11:12 PM
I would have done the trade then and I would still do it today. This team needs starting pitching plain and simple and we traded a middle reliever for the chance to get 2 possible starters.

TeamBoone
05-19-2005, 12:20 AM
And that's what they keep doing, trade away a decent pitcher for prospects... first Reitsma and then Mosely (I'm sure there are more, but I'm not going to rack my brain to come up with them).

You just can't trade the best from your biggest deficiency; it defies logic. Funny, all those prospects they trade for... they finally get a good one in Mosely and shove him out the door.

princeton
05-19-2005, 12:42 AM
And that's what they keep doing, trade away a decent pitcher for prospects... first Reitsma and then Mosely

Moseley was the prospect, not the decent pitcher

pedro
05-19-2005, 12:43 AM
he got rocked the other night

C. Reitsma (L, 1-2; BS, 2) 0.2 IP, 4 hits, 3 runs, 3 earned runs, O walks, 1 K.

Ravenlord
05-19-2005, 10:38 AM
I'm sorry, but you just don't trade the one good arm in your organization for two longshots that the Braves are ready too give up on.now you're confusing the issue. the Braves still called Nelson a 'stud.' so did BA. Matt Belisle was who they had lost faith in.

Ravenlord
05-19-2005, 10:38 AM
Saying that you traded a guy who projected for middle relief for two guys who projected as starters, is simply not reality. According to this line of thinking you would be willing to trade Harang for two pitching prospects.except Harang doesn't project as middle relief and never has.

Ravenlord
05-19-2005, 10:41 AM
...they finally get a good one in Mosely and shove him out the door.the thing that bothers me about Moseley is this; he's an extreme groundball pitcher. Ortiz is exactly 1:1 in GB:FB. yet all offseason, we hear DanO praise the value of GB pitchers. so he flips an extreme GB for a more expensive neutral pitcher who had a good year 3 seasons ago.

TeamBoone
05-19-2005, 11:34 AM
Moseley was the prospect, not the decent pitcher

Yes, that was my point... one of the few prospects who was actually doing well, so they got rid of him.

Chip R
05-19-2005, 02:44 PM
Middle relief?? You don't think Chris would be closing for the Reds if he was still here? Remember, one of the big problems we have is that wwe don't have a closer. So labeling Reitsma a " middle relief" pitcher is a bit unfair. Of course if we had a decent middle relief pitcher, we'd probably have about five more wins. Good middle relief pitches are prety valuable.
He had his shot at closing in 2003. He wasn't exactly Eric Gagne out there. No better than Graves was last year.

And if they traded him because they wanted to pinch pennies, why did they release Haynes a month later?

Wheelhouse
05-19-2005, 05:11 PM
Reitsma's another head-case--I wouldn't trust him with the game on the line.

TeamBoone
05-19-2005, 07:18 PM
Reitsma's another head-case--I wouldn't trust him with the game on the line.

Head case? I have NEVER, EVER heard anyone describe him in that manner.

Care to elaborate?

Mutaman
05-19-2005, 08:03 PM
He had his shot at closing in 2003. He wasn't exactly Eric Gagne out there. No better than Graves was last year.

And if they traded him because they wanted to pinch pennies, why did they release Haynes a month later?

There is no comparison between Graves' arm and fastball with Reitsma's. And what kind of argument is it comparing him with Gagne, Chris had an arm in an organization that is woefully lacking in same. he's not Pedro Martinez either but so what?

And the best fact you can come up with for showing that the main motivation for this organization up until the past winter was to save money is that they let jimmy Hayes go? If thats the best you can come up with, you prove my point.

The Reitsma giveaway wasn't that big a deal-- its probably only cost this organization about 15 wins (so fa).. Its what it symbolises- an organization that is motivated by saving a few bucks, an organization with no plan, an organization with no common sense.

Mutaman
05-19-2005, 08:05 PM
except Harang doesn't project as middle relief and never has.

Ok, its like trading Wagner for two prospects. Also, I don't agree that Chris 'projected" as a long man. He was closing when he was given away, and he was doing well at it.

Falls City Beer
05-19-2005, 08:10 PM
DanO's made one good move since he's been here; don't take that away from him!

Ravenlord
05-19-2005, 09:31 PM
Ok, its like trading Wagner for two prospects. Also, I don't agree that Chris 'projected" as a long man. He was closing when he was given away, and he was doing well at it.apperetnly what you and i consider to be good at closing are two different things. Reitsma was 2004 Danny Graves as a closer. Wagner doesn't project as a middle reliever either. he projects closer. actually, the better comparison for Reitsma is Dave Veres. IMO, if Reits was a closer for a full season, he'd put up Veres-like numbers.

Mutaman
05-19-2005, 11:37 PM
apperetnly what you and i consider to be good at closing are two different things. Reitsma was 2004 Danny Graves as a closer. Wagner doesn't project as a middle reliever either. he projects closer. actually, the better comparison for Reitsma is Dave Veres. IMO, if Reits was a closer for a full season, he'd put up Veres-like numbers.

Speculation of course is nice because you can't prove it or disprove it. Reitsma was young with a great arm and a good fastball. In an organization with such in short supply you don't give somebody like that away.

Nobody's going to defend Graves but he did have 41 saves last year with an ERA under 4.00. For a team with an overall ERA of 5.60 I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. The problem is we don't have anybody resembling a closer now (good or otherwise)because Graves can't duplicate his 2004 numbers and because we gave Reitsma away.

Ravenlord
05-19-2005, 11:49 PM
Wagner and Coffey both project as a closer. Bubba Nelson's also showing very well as a closer.

Mutaman
05-20-2005, 12:10 AM
Wagner and Coffey both project as a closer. Bubba Nelson's also showing very well as a closer.

Bubba Nelson has mediocre stats in AA ball. He was 1-10 with an ERA over 7.00
in AAA last year. Please.

You can project all you want but if by some miracle we go into the 9th inning tomorrow night with a one run lead, who are you going to send out there to pitch?

Ravenlord
05-20-2005, 12:18 AM
Bubba's actually doing quite well in the closer role in Chattanooga right now. especially since he's no longer pitching to contact:

3.57 ERA, 17.2 IP, 17 H, 1 HR, 5 BB, 21 K


and to answer your question, Mercker or Wagner. Coffey is still at least one year off from deserving the ML roster. you don't promote a Rookie-baller guy to the majors because he projects to be an ace.

Aronchis
05-20-2005, 02:03 AM
Bubba Nelson has mediocre stats in AA ball. He was 1-10 with an ERA over 7.00
in AAA last year. Please.

You can project all you want but if by some miracle we go into the 9th inning tomorrow night with a one run lead, who are you going to send out there to pitch?

That was last years stats starting with a bad knee.

Now he is in the Bullpen where he has appeared very comfortable. I think he has a better upside than Wagner though whether he puts it together is wait and see right now.