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Tommyjohn25
05-07-2005, 12:46 PM
This may be a stupid queston but I did not join this site till January of this year. I noticed the "Cincinnati Reds Talk" is now "The Old Red Guard". I have heard many referring to this person as almost a "legendary" member of this site from time to time. Just who was he/she and what happened to him/her?
Just curious.

Larkin Fan
05-07-2005, 01:05 PM
This may be a stupid queston but I did not join this site till January of this year. I noticed the "Cincinnati Reds Talk" is now "The Old Red Guard". I have heard many referring to this person as almost a "legendary" member of this site from time to time. Just who was he/she and what happened to him/her?
Just curious.

He was a poster that had a special way of looking at the game and an even more special way of writing about it. A way that very unique and made him very well respected around here. He passed away a few years ago and is quite missed.

ochre
05-07-2005, 01:07 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/search.php?searchid=15467

westofyou
05-07-2005, 01:10 PM
ORG, grew up in the Over the Rhine area in the late 20's and 30's.

He lived in St. Louis with his son and unlike many older folks out there he found his way on the internet. he was a great storyteller and had the ability to not get bogged down in used to be's.

Great historical perspective of the game.

Many of his posts disappeared in the last server crash IIRC.

This was one of his classics on training today vs back then.


Might as well make my jaded commentary on this here thread which could be renamed "The Never Ending Story"

People who don't think we're watching the greatest athletes in baseball history are just wrong - Reds Faithful

Yep. Just about all the players from the 30s wouldn't do squat if they were transplanted into today's game as is. 20 year olds looked about 30, bodies were smaller overall, no one weight trained (Lord forbid that makes you musclebound don't you know). The most popular diet supplement was liquid malt barley in one form or 'nuther. Juiced meant a guy played better drunk, you slept on clanking, rocking, creaking trains and spent weeks on the road, living in pullman's and hotel rooms. Nutritional theory was the more fatty red meat the better and exercise was generally considered only in spring training if you weren't smart enough to get out of it then. If you pulled a muscle or tweaked a hammy you rubbed some homemade balm into it, gritted your teeth, shut your fool mouth and played the game. There was some kid playing out in the cornbelt who was hellbent to take your job and your boss was hellbent to give it to him if you faltered for a second. After all you were making 5 grand a year and he could pay that kid 1200 and a train ticket to do the same thing. You might be better but not if you're hurt - why give the kid any chance at showing his stuff. Keep playing. Sanitation was nonexistent. Well, okay, most guys washed their face once a day and a few bathed more than once a week, but only a few. Uniforms were worn until they could play the game by themselves. Don't tear it either - get a needle and darn it up - if the club has to buy another one for you before midpoint they'd deduct it from your check. Heck that's about 6 bottles of whiskey and a night with a Philly hooker! Players would have made good footballers though with all that weight. Wool uniforms full of sweat and 3 pounds of fermented dirt, heavy leather shoes with razored steel cleats, cotton unders and a patch of leather on your off-ham and you were playing with 20 pounds of itchy, scratchy, buggy, sometimes soggy, baggy mucilaginous fiber clinging to your every move.

Compare that to today's featherweight outfits and shoes that weigh 6 ounces! Training equipment consisted of medicine balls, a big field and for pitchers, a wall to throw against. Knocking bottles off posts was a favorite way for kids to practice control, pitching off a concrete stoop and catching the rebounds, tossing at birds or rabbits and hitting rocks as far as you could were other disciplines of rigorous training. Stickball WAS great - it taught incredible bat control and concentration. You try hitting a small ball with a broomstick and see how well you do. Stickball in the streets is overlooked as a way to teach youngsters today. I'm seriuos. That's how I always coached my kids when I was involved in Pony baseball. I'd start out with stickball games and oven mitts for gloves. Bragging now but in twelve years coaching tykes we never once failed to win twice as many as we lost and a ton of my boys made allstar teams every year. Nothing special I did - just the stickball and oven mitts. Catch with an oven mitt and by gosh you WILL use 2 hands. Swing with a broomstick at a little rubber ball half the sizer of a baseball and by the time we played with real bats and balls and gloves the kids hardly missed anything. Easier to straighten out swings when they're hefting a broomstick, too. Helps them select the right weight bat, too. Most kids try to swing way too heavy.

Anyway, drifting - back to former athletes.

Today's players are far better athletes. Work regimens are religiously adhered to, scientific principles are utilized, professionals in kinesiology, nutrition, conditioning for specific functions, flexibility, even psychology are employed to help players train. In the 30s and 40s you were too busy at your 2nd job during the offseason to train much. During the season some guys main exercise consisted of bouncin a different Betty in every town you visited and brawling in saloons. There were lots of "good" guys, too, that had families and religion. They loafed around the hotel reading, writing letters and playing cards. Not every player was a hell-raiser but the ripsnorts probably got more exercise viz less sleep. Top it off with the fact that communicable diseases were widespread, nutrition from the cradle to grave was sometimes good but inconsistent. Food followed the economy - lots of people ate thin soup and litle else when times were slow. For lots of kids times was always slow. Then as now the greatest weapon against poverty was hard work but then as now there were lots of folk who ignored that fact.

There was no foodstamps, no unemployment checks, no welfare boards to take up the slack for the children. If your parents were unlucky, or bums, or down and out, then you didn't eat much. You spent your hours in the streets, playing stickball, pitching against that stoop, playing burnout with your buddies and breathing, sleeping, dreaming baseball. Then you're 16 and good - you play on a town team or maybe a factory boss pays you 3 bucks a game to play on their team and gives your old man a job to boot. You learn the game the hard way against guys who'll spike you, crash into you, trip you and rag you unmercifully -nothing sacred, mothers not spared. You small and young and facing a hulk of a pitcher who throws 85 ( fast enough back then) and spits tobacco with every pitch. He's dug a rut 6 inches in front of the rubber, too and pitches from there - the umps are scared of him so who's going to stop him? You know you can't pull him so you slap at the ball and poke it into left with a bit of spin - the ball caroms off into foul gorund after striking fair and you run like a jackrabbit, skipping over the first baseman's extended foot, ducking the elbow aimed at your ribs the 2nd sacker points your way and you slide into third with your spikes up and slashing. Not trying to hurt the guy, just keeping him from getting close enough to stomp on you when he sweeps the tag.

A couple years of this and a scout sees you and signs you for a ticket and fifty bucks and sends you to Red Oak, Iowa to play. You're 18 and weigh 140 sopping wet. Your face is drawn and you look 30 by today's standards but everyone in Red Oak calls you Cheeks because they think you have a "babyface". You're scrawny, undernourished, wiry strong but no one today would call you an athlete. Didn't then, either - you are a ballplayer. Big difference. Athletes are born - ballplayers are forged from runny gruel, concrete stoops, bouncing balls, broomsticks and hard knocks. You know all the dirty tricks - better known as essential survival techniques. At 21, you make the show. You do well, you're a 2nd baseman. You get on base any way you can, you holler at the pitcher, you steal when you can but only when its necessary.

Go the other way, bunt, squeeze, and you've learned to swing from the heels when the pitcher is predictable. You use whatever you've been given, and you learn everything you can, every nuance possible. You are successful and your twetnies are golden years. Then you're 30. Within 2 or 3 years your career will be over. Your joints hurt, you've lost a couple of steps. You've played through aches and strains, and punished yourself for a decade to fend off the stream of prospects trying to unseat you. And now it happens. You're traded for no one inparticular to a terrible team. You play a couple years, your numbers aren't that bad but thwe little things are gone. You can't steal anymore, triples are doubles and doubles are singles and that kid up from Tuscaloosa that throws 92 just blows it by you. You retire at 33. You are old, ancient by baseball standards. You've never touched a weight set, never taken a vitamin or mineral supplement, never even heard of yoga or yogurt, never had a personal or team trainer, you have the beginnings of gout, and have had chicken pox, measles, mumps, rubella, and a variety of flus during your career.

Mostly you played through it all and let your natural vitality cure it. You have a permanently bent finger from the time you broke it on a ball that jammed it, then you taped it, grimaced and played on. You have hammer toe because you played in second hand shoes for all those early years and the toe was too tight. You don't even know its why you couldn't run worth a damn anymore when you were just 30. You were a ballplayer. Now you're 33 and you're nothing. No job, no other skills, no player's association to write you a check. You take a job as a coach. You'll teach the same misguided theories and scoff at new advances in nutrition and training for years, delaying major advances in your sport until the mid to late 60s when rising salaries and advancing knowledge begins to change the way athletes take care of themselves and baseball begins to scout athletes for their potential instead of ballplayers for their skills. The theory is you can teach skills but you can't teach speed or genetics.

In the back of my mind, this old man realizes they are right, but I miss the pure ballplayers. The ones who raised hell and tripped guys as they rounded second. The ones who took whatever you gave em and used it against you. When I was a child I watched ordinary men with extraordinary skills playing a game I loved. Today, I watch demi-gods of athleticism with lithe, muscular bodies play my beloved sport. The hope for the everyday joe, who works hard, who hones his skills fanatically, to play at the highest level, is almost gone. Yes, today's athletes are incredible and outclass their counterparts of yesteryear. They are not nearly as much fun to watch or follow.

TeamDunn
05-07-2005, 01:14 PM
Is the post still around that announced his passing? I tried to find it but couldn't.

Reds Nd2
05-07-2005, 01:22 PM
This was one of his classics on training today vs back then.

WOW! An excellent read. Thanks for posting that WoY.

SunDeck
05-07-2005, 01:25 PM
I feel like we're haunted by a kindly ghost when I read that. Sniff.

westofyou
05-07-2005, 01:27 PM
BTW here's ORG favorite player (he's wearing CC Sabathia''s hat)

http://www.vintagecardtraders.com/virtual/33goudey/33goudey-044.jpg

medford
05-07-2005, 01:29 PM
Wow, I could read more of those every day. Wish they could find them and put them in a book or sumthin

TeamBoone
05-07-2005, 01:52 PM
ORG certainly had a gift. I'm surprised the board wasn't flooded every time he posted by those of us clamoring to get a first glimpse at the joy we knew was coming. It's a shame most of his "essays" are lost.

His family also seems to be class act. RZ also placed a brick on Crosley Plaza in his memory. And his family treated us like we'd given them a million bucks!

Here's to you, ORG. I just know there's baseball in heaven. :beerme:

OldRightHander
05-07-2005, 04:28 PM
I kind of wish I could have been around when he was still posting. That was a really nice read. It kind of makes you feel like we're missing something in the game today, something that has been irretrievably lost.

redsrule2500
05-07-2005, 05:28 PM
He was definetly a great poster. I think the forum name is a great tribute to him.

redsfanmia
05-07-2005, 05:31 PM
That was an amazing post, it just goes to show the knowlege and perspective that the older generation can bestow upon us.

OldRightHander
05-07-2005, 05:32 PM
I was on here briefly in the summer of 2001, but I had a different user name then and I forgot the password for that name. That was the summer I spent living in Colorado gawking at the mountains and missing going to Reds games. I wasn't on enough then to really remember reading anything from him, but reading that one here was a real treat. I wish I could have read more.

fisch11
05-07-2005, 05:43 PM
Too new to have been a part of his posts. But from reading recently it is very thoughtful of GIK and Boss-Hog....nice suggestion from savafan.

Tommyjohn25
05-07-2005, 05:46 PM
Thanks for all the info people!! It sounds like i missed something special seeing as I wasn't around when he was posting. I really appreciate this board and am always interested in hearing the history behind it. Great job btw WOY on posting ORG post. Great stuff....love the sentimental value of things like that.

Thanks again everyone!!

TeamDunn
05-07-2005, 06:02 PM
Is the post still around that announced his passing? I tried to find it but couldn't.

The thread I was talking about is now in the archive section.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34418

WVPacman
05-08-2005, 12:54 AM
Guys I wished I would have been able to have got to talked to him he sounds like he was a nice guy.Guys he might be gone but by the looks of it you guys learned alot from him.They will never be another ORG but you guys that was lucky enough to have talked to him will care his legacy on.Great job of changing the name of the board im sure he is up there smiling and thanking you guys. :beerme:

cincinnati chili
05-08-2005, 01:48 AM
Didn't appreciate him enough when he was still with us. Beautiful stuff.

WVPacman
05-08-2005, 01:58 AM
Didn't appreciate him enough when he was still with us. Beautiful stuff.


Chili,im sure he thought to his self that you guys was the greatest in the world and for you guys to remame your board in his honor speaks volumes believe me.I am on a WV site that lost a long time member like you guys did and im thinking very seriouly to asking the mod to that forum to do the same thing.

This guy that you all are wrighting about is beginning to make me think that I knew him for years.I just wished I could have had the opurtunity to have talked to him b/c he sounds like he was a great man.

You guys are doing a great thing in renaming this board in his honor it shows just how much you guys thought of him and im so glad that I can be a part of this awesome group. :beerme:

Tommyjohn25
05-08-2005, 01:37 PM
His family also seems to be class act. RZ also placed a brick on Crosley Plaza in his memory. And his family treated us like we'd given them a million bucks!


Does anyone know the coordinates of ORG's brick off the top of their head?

flyer85
05-09-2005, 10:31 AM
buncha commies.:D

TeamBoone
05-09-2005, 02:43 PM
Does anyone know the coordinates of ORG's brick off the top of their head?

No, but I'm sure Remdog does as he's the one who honchoed the effort. I do know that it was purchased during the second brick campaign and I THINK it in the terrace area just to the left of the HOF (if you're standing on the street looking at it).

RedlegJake
05-09-2005, 06:26 PM
I also saved his posts (as well as others - my own archive). This is my favorite post of his, though. It blends fun, word play and a terrific knowledge of the game. Though I joined this board later on, I've been a member under another s/n which I forgot after a hiatus from the internet. Over the course of 2 years I have my own archive of about 120 of my alltime favorite posts - some snippets from a thread, some the entire thread. ORG appears in 6 that I could find. He didn't seem to post that much, few mundane posts. When he replied to a thread he usually had something valuable to say.

Don Heffner
Posts: 1733
posted May 21, 2001 12:51 AM
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Would you care to expostulate on why the Reds let Luis Arroyo depart to the Yankees?
Why they let Mike Cuellar leave the scene.
What happened to Mike Caldwell
Where is Claude Osteen
What is you present state of mind as to who Dick Sisler should start in the final game of 1964 to face Bunning, I thinkhe's leaning toward John Tsitouris?
IP: 64.30.206.47

Old Red Gaurd
Posts: 304
posted May 21, 2001 01:28 AM
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Arroyo was released to prepare an excuse for losing the 1961 World Series. This frightening prescience cost Mayo Smith his position as manager which cemented the Reds rapid rise to the top 2 years later under Swami Smith's successor, Fred Hutchinson. Cuellar and Osteen were gems of quality unseen by Reds management at the time - in other words they actually could pitch. Never having seen this phenomena in Cincinnati for a decade, the Reds simply did not believe their own eyes. Used to deceptive chicanery, DeWitt immediately believed his own disbelief and ordered both of them released before they infected the rest of the squad with the belief that they, too, could pitch. Word has it that Ken Raffensbarger actually believed he could for a short while. Caldwell was a giant who briefly turned red before becoming a brewer who was a giant again at least in pitching success. Had he been half the pitcher he was before and after his half season with Reds Cincy would have won a third straight in '77 and Mike would be renowned today in our glorious tradition as one of our best ever. His failure is not unlike the story of the Huns. Conqueror of uncivilized teams but in the Rome which is our 7 Hills he could but fail in the center of such glory.
Faith in Tsitouris was mainly in Sisler's love of syllabic patronymy thus ignoring the young but single syllabled Jay or double syllabled Ellis, either of whom was prepared to go. But Sisler thought, if things get hot I can always Oh! Henry from the pen or McCool things off if I must. But that fateful day when four teams vied, and only one could be crowned the victor, came Bunning, the first Kentucky headhunter (a mean singer in his own right)to Philly's aid, their cause lost already, vowing to destroy the Red Menace that had so crushed their hopes, and thus, their revenge was our nadir. No Bunning, our Tsitouris, the rout commenced. Shades still walk the vale of that day's tears, I tell you.

IP: 207.192.192.119

oregonredsfan
Member
Posts: 550
From:Portland, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2001
posted May 21, 2001 03:57 AM
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Hats off to a truly perspicacious post ORG!
I think you have left the Heff Bros speechless with your sapient retort.

RedsBaron
05-09-2005, 06:44 PM
Cuellar and Osteen were gems of quality unseen by Reds management at the time - in other words they actually could pitch. Never having seen this phenomena in Cincinnati for a decade, the Reds simply did not believe their own eyes. Used to deceptive chicanery, DeWitt immediately believed his own disbelief and ordered both of them released before they infected the rest of the squad with the belief that they, too, could pitch.
Thank you for that wonderful post by ORG. The portion I noted above makes it sound as if the move things change, the more they remain the same. Of course now we don't even get quality young pitchers to send elsewhere.

RFS62
05-09-2005, 06:52 PM
That was awesome RedlegJake. Thanks a bunch.

gonelong
05-09-2005, 10:28 PM
I also saved his posts (as well as others - my own archive). This is my favorite post of his, though.

I am out of rep pts today, but you are going to be getting some from me tomorrow.

Thank you for saving that.

GL

RFS62
05-09-2005, 11:38 PM
I am out of rep pts today, but you are going to be getting some from me tomorrow.

Thank you for saving that.

GL


Same here.

KittyDuran
05-10-2005, 09:18 AM
Same here.Ditto... :thumbup:

919191
05-10-2005, 11:13 AM
I am out of rep pts today, but you are going to be getting some from me tomorrow.

Thank you for saving that.

GL There are 8 more! :thumbup:

kxblue
05-10-2005, 10:35 PM
For my english class I am doing a cultural response presentation on steroids, and would love to use Old Red Gaurd's post comparing training today versus the training of old. I was wondering if any of you knew his name (or his family's email adress) so I could give credit, where credit is certainly due.

remdog
05-10-2005, 11:33 PM
ORG's name is Charles Elledge. His son is a member of Redszone under the name RoyalsReds. You can probably try to reach him through the e-mail form there but he doesn't visit the board much.

Rem

remdog
05-10-2005, 11:56 PM
When we did the brick for ORG there was a certificate that came to me regarding its' location and inscription. At the time, I had no address to send it to and, by the time I got it, I was in the process of moving and the certificate went astray. All the conversation about ORG prompted me to look for it and, after a couple of hours of digging I managed to find it (in an old tax return file---no wonder I never looked there before. :eek: )

I just sent an e-mail to RoyalsReds, ORG's son, asking him for an address to forward the certificate to; hopefully he will get that since he hasn't posted here in over a year.

Someone asked about the location of the Brick. The only thing I have says that it is in section 39 of the Hall of Fame Breezeway. Based upon the illustration that came with that locator, it looks like it would be about the middle of the breezeway between the Reds Team Store and the HOF entrance. It is closer to the side of the breezeway nearest Main Street.

The instription on the brick is from a poem by ORG from his days of playing sandlot baseball as a boy. It reads:

Where homeplate was a paper plate
I'd take my Hero's stance and wait

Charles Elledge

Rem

gonelong
05-11-2005, 12:56 AM
Where homeplate was a paper plate
I'd take my Hero's stance and wait

Charles Elledge

Rem

SERP mission, get a picture of "our" brick and post it here.

remdog
05-11-2005, 01:29 AM
Someone took a picture of the Redszone Brick once.

Which brings up another 'brick' subject. For newcomers to the site, there is also a Redszone Brick somewhere near the stadium. Darn if I can recall where though. :confused:

Rem

TeamDunn
05-11-2005, 07:47 AM
RZ's brick is just outside the new gift shop in Section 3. :)

TeamMorris
05-24-2005, 12:11 AM
Here are a few pictures of Old Red Guards brick. I never thought of getting a few of Redszones :bang:

If I get a chance, I will look through some of my last seasons pictures. I am pretty sure I have one around.

WVPacman
05-24-2005, 12:33 AM
People you guys are really some classy people on here and im so glad I was lucky enough to find this site to talk to people like you all.ORG sounds like he was a great great person that you guys were lucky enough to get to know.Im sure he is setting and smiling down at everyone of you guys that treated him like ruralty.To rename a board after somebody to me that speaks volumes about how you all felt about the guy and im sure he is deeply missed by all of you but you all still have one think and thats Memorys about ORG.Those Memorys will be with you forever!!

Again I have to say I would have loved to have been lucky enough to have got to talk to him b/c he sounds like he was a great person.You guys are some great people on here and im so glad that I have the opurtunity to talk to great people like you guys.

TeamBoone
05-24-2005, 12:47 AM
Click on the picture to enlarge it.

WVPacman
05-24-2005, 01:11 AM
That is some great stuff about ORG,and great photos as well.He must have been a monster fan of the Reds?We need more Reds fans like him with the class,Big Heart,and thats truly loyal to the team. :thumbup:

ORG,bud I wished I would have been lucky enough to have talked to you on here.

TeamDunn
05-24-2005, 07:34 AM
I believe the RZ brick pictures are/were in the pics section of the site (which is currently not visible, but they do exist!).

remdog
05-24-2005, 12:02 PM
Thanks for the pics of the ORG Brick, TM! I've never seen any before so it's nice to know how it turned out.

Rem